Hi,

I've noticed that if you only save a model (with all your mapping planes
positioned carefully) to a .3DS file that when you reload it after restarting
3DS, they are given a default position and orientation.  But if you save
to a .PRJ file their positions/orientation are preserved.  Does anyone
know why this information is not stored in the .3DS file?  Nothing is
explicitly said in the manual about saving texture rules in the .PRJ file. 
I'd like to be able to read the texture rule information, does anyone have 
the format for the .PRJ file?

Is the .CEL file format available from somewhere?

Rych

Seems to be, barring evidence to the contrary, that Koresh was simply
another deranged fanatic who thought it neccessary to take a whole bunch of
folks with him, children and all, to satisfy his delusional mania. Jim
Jones, circa 1993.

Nope - fruitcakes like Koresh have been demonstrating such evil corruption
for centuries.

 >In article <1993Apr19.020359.26996@sq.sq.com>, msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) 

MB>                                                             So the
MB> 1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove.

JG>Sorry, _perijoves_...I'm not used to talking this language.

Couldn't we just say periapsis or apoapsis?

I have a request for those who would like to see Charley Wingate
respond to the "Charley Challenges" (and judging from my e-mail, there
appear to be quite a few of you.)  

It is clear that Mr. Wingate intends to continue to post tangential or
unrelated articles while ingoring the Challenges themselves.  Between
the last two re-postings of the Challenges, I noted perhaps a dozen or
more posts by Mr. Wingate, none of which answered a single Challenge.  

It seems unmistakable to me that Mr. Wingate hopes that the questions
will just go away, and he is doing his level best to change the
subject.  Given that this seems a rather common net.theist tactic, I
would like to suggest that we impress upon him our desire for answers,
in the following manner:

1. Ignore any future articles by Mr. Wingate that do not address the
Challenges, until he answers them or explictly announces that he
refuses to do so.

--or--

2. If you must respond to one of his articles, include within it
something similar to the following:

    "Please answer the questions posed to you in the Charley Challenges."

Really, I'm not looking to humiliate anyone here, I just want some
honest answers.  You wouldn't think that honesty would be too much to
ask from a devout Christian, would you?  

Nevermind, that was a rhetorical question.

AW&ST  had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
May 7th  at Crystal City Virginia, under the auspices of AIAA.

Does anyone know more about this?  How much, to attend????

Anyone want to go?

There are definitely quite a few horrible deaths as the result of both
atheists AND theists.  I'm sure Bobby can list quite a few for the atheist
side but fails to recognize that the theists are equally proficient at
genocide.  Perhaps, since I'm a bit weak on history, somone here would like
to give a list of wars caused/led by theists?  I can think of a few (Hitler
claimed to be a Christian for example) but a more complete list would
probably be more effective in showing Bobby just how absurd his statement
is.

On a side note, I notice you always sign your posts "Peace".  Perhaps you
should take your own advice and leave the atheists in peace with their
beliefs?

Nanci

Mark Prado
  
Old pioneer song from the 1850's or so goes as follows:
  
  "In a cavern, in a canyon,
   Excavating for a mine,
   Dwelt a miner, forty-niner,
   And his daughter, CLEMENTINE"
  
Chorus:
  "Oh my darling, Oh my darling,
   Oh my darling Clementine.
   You are lost and gone forever,
   Oh my darling Clementine."
  
 I've also had it explained (but not confirmed from a reliable data
source) that CLEMENTINE is an acronym.  Something like Combined
Lunar Elemental Mapper Experiment on Extended Non Terrestrial
Intercept Near Earth.  Personally, I think that acronym was made up
to fit the name (if it really is an acronym).
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
 Wales Larrison                           Space Technology Investor

Acorn Replay running on a 25MHz ARM 3 processor (the ARM 3 is about 20% slower
than the ARM 6) does this in software (off a standard CD-ROM). 16 bit colour at
about the same resolution (so what if the computer only has 8 bit colour
support, real-time dithering too...). The 3D0/O is supposed to have a couple of
DSPs - the ARM being used for housekeeping.

A 25MHz ARM 6xx should clock around 20 ARM MIPS, say 18 flat out. Depends
really on the surrounding system and whether you are talking ARM6x or ARM6xx
(the latter has a cache, and so is essential to run at this kind of speed with
slower memory).

I'll stop saying things there 'cos I'll hopefully be working for ARM after
graduation...

Mike

PS Don't pay heed to what reps from Philips say; if the 3D0/O doesn't beat the
   pants off 3DI then I'll eat this postscript.

Their Hiten engineering-test mission spent a while in a highly eccentric
Earth orbit doing lunar flybys, and then was inserted into lunar orbit
using some very tricky gravity-assist-like maneuvering.  This meant that
it would crash on the Moon eventually, since there is no such thing as
a stable lunar orbit (as far as anyone knows), and I believe I recall
hearing recently that it was about to happen.

I'm interested in find out what is involved in processing pairs of 
stereo photographs.  I have black-and-white photos and would like 
to obtain surface contours.

I'd prefer to do the processing on an SGI, but would be interested
in hearing what software/hardware is used for this type of
image processing.

Please email and/or post to comp.sys.sgi.graphics your responses.

Thanks,

a

What about positional uncertainties in S-L 1993e?   I assume we know where
and what Galileo is doing within a few meters.   But without the
HGA,  don't we have to have some pretty good ideas, of where to look
before imaging?  If the HGA was working,  they could slew around
in near real time (Less speed of light delay).  But when they were
imaging toutatis????  didn't someone have to get lucky on a guess to
find the first images?   

Also, I imagine S-L 1993e will be mostly a visual image.  so how will
that affect the other imaging missions.  with the LGA,  there is a real
tight allocation of bandwidth.   It may be premature to hope for answers,
but I thought i'd throw it on the floor.

I would like to program Tseng ET4000 to nonstandard 1024x768 mode by
switching to standard 1024x768 mode using BIOS and than changing some
timing details (0x3D4 registers 0x00-0x1F) but I don't know how to
select 36 MHz pixel clock I need. The BIOS function selects 40 MHz.

Is there anybody who knows where to obtain technical info about this.
I am also interested in any other technical information about Tseng ET4000
and Trident 8900 and 9000 chipsets.

			thanks very much

In-Reply-To: <20APR199312262902@rigel.tamu.edu> lmp8913@rigel.tamu.edu (PRESTON, LISA M)

I'm not sure, but it almost sounds like they can't figure out where the 
_nucleus_ is within the coma. If they're off by a couple hundred
miles, well, you can imagine the rest...

Hello,
     I am looking to add voice input capability to a user interface I am
developing on an HP730 (UNIX) workstation.  I would greatly appreciate 
information anyone would care to offer about voice input systems that are 
easily accessible from the UNIX environment. 

     The names or adresses of applicable vendors, as well as any 
experiences you have had with specific systems, would be very helpful.

     Please respond via email; I will post a summary if there is 
sufficient interest.

Thanks,
Ken

P.S.  I have found several impressive systems for IBM PC's, but I would 
like to avoid the hassle of purchasing and maintaining a separate PC if 
at all possible.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Hinckley (kph2q@virginia.edu)
University of Virginia 
Neurosurgical Visualization Laboratory

It was a test of the first reusable tool.

Pointy so they can find them or so they will stick into their pants better, and
be closer to their brains?

Size of armies, duration, numbers of casualties both absolute and as a
percentage of those involved, geographical area and numbers of countries
too, are all measures of size.  In this case I'd say the relevant
statistic would be the number of combatants (total troops) compared to
total casualties from among the total civilian population in the
affected geographical area.

Vietnam and Korea might make good comparisons.

Western news in general, but in particular the American "mass media":
CBS, NBC, ABC, etc.  The general tone of the news during the whole
war was one of "those poor, poor Iraqis" along with "look how precisely
this cruise missile blew this building to bits".

I agree.

Perhaps so.  And maybe the atomic bomb was a mistake too.  But that's easy
to say from our "enlightened" viewpoint here in the 90's, right?  Back
then, it was *all-out* war, and Germany and Japan had to be squashed.
After all, a million or more British had already died, hundreds of 
thousands of French, a couple hundread thousand or so Americans, and 
millions of Russians, not to mention a few million Jews, Poles, and 
other people of slavic descent in German concentration camps.  All 
things considered, the fire-bombings and the atomic bomb were
essential (and therefore justified) in bringing the war to a quick
end to avoid even greater allied losses.

I, for one, don't regret it.

Sure.  And it's the people who suffer because of them.  All the more
reason to depose these "entrenched political rulers operating in their
own selfish interests"!  Or do you mean that this applies to the allies
as well??

I make no claim or effort to justify the misguided foreign policy of the
West before the war.  It is evident that the West, especially America,
misjudged Hussein drastically.  But once Hussein invaded Kuwait and 
threatened to militarily corner a significant portion of the world's
oil supply, he had to be stopped.  Sure the war could have been
prevented by judicious and concerted effort on the part of the West
before Hussein invaded Kuwait, but it is still *Hussein* who is
responsible for his decision to invade.  And once he did so, a
strong response from the West was required.

Well, it's not very "loving" to allow a Hussein or a Hitler to gobble up
nearby countries and keep them.  Or to allow them to continue with mass
slaughter of certain peoples under their dominion.  So, I'd have to
say yes, stopping Hussein was the most "loving" thing to do for the
most people involved once he set his mind on military conquest.

I mentioned it.

If we hadn't intervened, allowing Hussein to keep Kuwait, then it would
have been appeasement.  It is precisely the lessons the world learned
in WW2 that motivated the Western alliance to war.  Letting Hitler take
Austria and Czechoslavkia did not stop WW2 from happening, and letting
Hussein keep Kuwait would not have stopped an eventual Gulf War to
protect Saudi Arabia.

Sure.  What was truly unfortunate was that they followed Hitler in
his grandiose quest for a "Thousand Year Reich".  The consequences
stemmed from that.

What should I say about them?  Anything in particular?

So?  It was the *policemen* on trial not Rodney King!!  And under American
law they deserved a jury of *their* peers!  If there had been black
officers involved, I'm sure their would have been black jurors too.
This point (of allegedly racial motivations) is really shallow.

So?  It's "hard to imagine"?  So when has Argument from Incredulity
gained acceptance from the revered author of "Constructing a Logical
Argument"?  Can we expect another revision soon??  :)  (Just kidding.)

I have to admit that I wonder this too.  But *neither* the prosecution
nor the defense is talking.  So one cannot conclude either way due to
the silence of the principals.  

OK.  It certainly seemed to me that there was excessive force involved.
And frankly, the original "not guilty" verdict baffled me too.  But then
I learned that the prosecution in the first case did not try to convict
on a charge of excessive force or simple assault which they probably
would have won, they tried to get a conviction on a charge of aggravated
assault with intent to inflict serious bodily harm.  A charge, which
news commentators said, was akin to attempted murder under California
law.  Based on what the prosecution was asking for, it's evident that 
the first jury decided that the officers were "not guilty".  Note, 
not "not guilty" of doing wrong, but "not guilty" of aggravated assault 
with the *intent* of inflicting serious bodily harm.  The seeds of the 
prosecutions defeat were in their own overconfidence in obtaining a 
verdict such that they went for the most extreme charge they could.

If the facts as the news commentators presented them are true, then
I feel the "not guilty" verdict was a reasonable one.

Thanks mathew, I like the quote.  Pretty funny actually.  (I'm a 
Monty Python fan, you know.  Kind of seems in that vein.)

Of course, oversimplifying any moral argument can make it seem
contradictory.  But then, you know that already.  

Regards,

<stuff deleted>

You mean like: seconds, minutes, hours, days, months, years. . .  :-)

Remember,  the Fahrenheit temperature scale is also a centigrade scale.  Some
revisionists tell the history something like this:  The coldest point in a
particular Russian winter was marked on the thermometer as was the body
temperature of a volunteer (turns out he was sick, but you can't win 'em all).
Then the space in between the marks on the thermometer was then divided into
hundredths.
								:-)

FWIW,

Doug Page

It wasn't especially prominent, as I recall.  However, quite possibly it's
no longer on display; NASM, like most museums, has much more stuff than it
can display at once, and does rotate the displays occasionally.

DM> Fact or rumor....?  Madalyn Murray O'Hare an atheist who eliminated the
DM> use of the bible reading and prayer in public schools 15 years ago is now
DM> going to appear before the FCC with a petition to stop the reading of the
DM> Gospel on the airways of America.  And she is also campaigning to remove
DM> Christmas programs, songs, etc from the public schools.  If it is true
DM> then mail to Federal Communications Commission 1919 H Street Washington DC
DM> 20054 expressing your opposition to her request.  Reference Petition number

DM> 2493.

False.  This story has been going around for years.  There's not a drop of
truth.  Note that I don't care for O'Hare (O'Hair?) myself, but this
is one thing she's not guilty of.

If by that you mean anything on the GD approach, there was an article on
it in a recent Avation Week. I don't remember the exact date but it was
recent.

 Allen

The 68070 is a variation of the 68010 that was done a few years ago by
the European partners of Motorola. It has some integrated I/O controllers
and half a MMU, but otherwise it's a 68010. Think of it the same as
the 8086 and 80186 were.

		Burkhard Neidecker-Lutz

PSA 145:9  The LORD is good to all: and his  tender  mercies  are
over all his works.

There has been a lot of discussion about Tyre.  In sum, Ezekiel prophesied
that the place would be mashed and never rebuilt; as there are a lot of
people living there, it would appear that Ezekiel was not literally correct.

This doesn't bother me at all, because I understand the language Ezekiel used
differently than do so-called Biblical literalists.  For example, it sometimes
happens that someone says "My grandson is the cutest baby!" and then turns
around and sees the granddaughter and says "Oh!  Isn't she the cutest thing!?"

This person is not literally claiming to have lined up all the babies in the
world according to cuteness and discovered his own grandchildren tied for
first.  Rather, he is trying to express his emotions using words that are very
object-oriented.  Because this example is one that is common to many people,
nobody misunderstands the intent of the statements; the Bible, however, is
often at the mercy of people who assume that everything within must be exactly
literally true.  For those people, the existence of Tyre is a problem; for me,
it is not.

Turning to the latest person trying to defend Ezekiel, we read this from
John E King:

No, it implies nothing of the kind.  If you had nothing but the prophecy from
Ezekiel, and you were told you interpret it literally, you would never say
"Oh, he means that there will be houses and businesses and plants and stuff
like that."  You would read "I will make you a bare rock" and "You will never
be rebuilt", and you'd conclude that Tyre would be a bare rock.  The only way
to get from `fishing nets' to `houses and buildings and a medium-large
population' is if you KNOW that all that latter stuff is there.

In other words, your answer means that Ezekiel misled everybody who read the
prophecy at the time it was written.  There is no way that, given a literal
reading, they could read this passage and conclude "medium-size city".

You seem to feel that "Never be rebuilt" means "be rebuilt" -- maybe so, but
it is hardly a `clear implication'.

Well, no.  That's only a bit less than the population of Annapolis, where I'm
from.  You know, the Naval Acadamy, the state capital, George Washington
resigned his commission in the statehouse?  Annapolis may not be New York, but
it's at least a two-horse town.

But supposing 22,000 people is a "small town" -- it's still 22,000 people
MORE than Ezekiel predicted.

And you've said nothing about the other problem.  In chapter 26, Ezekiel
predicts that Nebuchadnezzar will will destroy Tyre and loot all their
valuables.  However, Nebuchadnezzar did NOT destroy Tyre, and in chapter 29
Ezekiel even quotes God as saying "he and his army got no reward from the
campaign he led against Tyre."

Let's ignore Alexander for a moment, and just pay attention to chapter 26.
Ezekiel says N. would destroy Tyre, and N. did NOT destroy Tyre.  Ezekiel says
that N. would plunder their valuables, but N. did NOT plunder their valuables.

Regardless of what you think about Tyre _now_, the fact is that N. died before
the place was destroyed.  Ezekiel said N. was going to do it, and N. did not.

 *

This post is, of course, pointless.  Inerrantists have an amazing ability
to rewrite the Bible as needed to fit whatever they want it to say.

For example, I expect Mr King to respond to the comments about Ezekiel 26
by pulling some "clear implications" out of hat.

When Ezekiel said that N. would "demolish your towers", that clearly implied
that the walls would still be standing so people would know where the towers
used to be.  And when Ezekiel said that N. would "demolish your fine houses
and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea", that clearly implied
that N. would never set foot on the island.  And when Ezekiel wrote that N.
would "build a ramp up to your walls", that clearly implies that N. would
spend 13 years stomping around on the mainland and never get close to the
walls.

See?  A few "clear implications" that are totally contrary to the text, and
you can reconcile anything you want.

About a year ago I started work on a problem that appeared to
be very simple and turned out to be quite difficult.  I am wondering if
anyone on the net has seen this problem and (hopefully) some published 
solutions to it.

	The problem is to draw an outline of a surface defined by two
roughly parallel cubic splines.  For inputs the problem essentially
starts with two sets of points where each set of points is on the 
edge of an object which we treat as two dimensional, i.e. only extant
between the edges, but which exists in three dimensional space.  To draw 
the object we 

1) fit a cubic spline through the points.  Each spline is effectively
	computed as a sequence of line segments approximating the
        curve.  Each spline has an equal number of segments.  We assume
	that the nth segment along each spline is roughly, but not
	exactly, the same distance along each spline by any reasonable
	measure.
2) Take each segment (n) along each spline and match it to the nth segment
	of the opposing spline.  Use the pair of segments to form two
	triangles which will be filled in to color the surface.
3) Depth sort the triangles
4) Take each triangle in sorted order, project onto a 2D pixmap, draw
	and color the triangle.  Take the edge of the triangle that is
	along the edge of the surface and draw a line along that edge
	colored with a special "edge color"

	It is the edge coloring in step 4 that is at the heart of the
problem.  The idea is to effectively outline the edge of the surface.
The net result however generally has lots of breaks and gaps in
the edge of the surface.  The reasons for this are fairly complicated.
They involve both rasterization problems and problems resulting
from the projecting the splines.  If anything about this problem
sounds familiar we would appreciate knowing about other work in this
area.

I need the file format for cc:Mail file formats - it seems to be PCX-based,
but with a twist: only the first page of a multi-page fax will come out
readable. The other pages disappear. The format seems to be 'proprietary'.

Anybody got any clues? I have to give my email FAXes to my secretary in
order to get 'em unscrambled. I want a filter from cc:Mail to .p[nb]m.

Come to think of it, p[nb]m to cc:Mail would be nice too.

I've got a 386 20Hz computer which is under warranty and my Trident
8900C video card is starting to play-up (surprise, surprise). Therefore
I'm going to try to exchange it for a better card.

The BIG Question is:

Which video card is high quality and with an
acceptable price tag (on student budget) ???

	Please do! And if you don't want to post it here, email to me
:-) I don't know how this discussion is appreciated here. I hate
'invading' newsgroups with themes of limited interest :-)

  Actually, my atheism is based on ignorance.  Ignorance of the
  existence of any god.  Don't fall into the "atheists don't believe
  because of their pride" mistake.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

My package is based on several articles about non-standard radiosity and
some unpublished methods.

The main articles are:

-  Cohen, Chen, Wallace, Greenberg : 
    A Progressive Refinement Approach to fast Radiosity Image Generation
     Computer Graphics (SIGGRAPH), V. 22(No. 4), pp 75-84, August 1988

-  Silion, Puech
    A General Two-Pass Method Integrating Specular and Diffuse Reflection
    Computer Graphics (SIGGRAPH), V23(No. 3), pp335-344, July 1989 

I do not use hemi-cubes. I have no special hardware (SUN SPARCstation).

Use anonymous as username and your e-mail address as password.

Stephan.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Stephan Amann     SIG Computer Graphics, University of Berne, Switzerland
           amann@iam.unibe.ch
	   Tel +41 31 65 46 79	   Fax +41 31 65 39 65

 Projects: Radiosity, Raytracing, Computer Graphics

Sorry I missed you Raymond, I was just out in Dahlgren last month...

I'm the Virtual Reality market manager for Silicon Graphics, so perhaps I
can help a little.

Unfortunately, while SGI systems were used to create the special effects
for both Terminator 2 and Lawnmower Man, those are film-quality computer
graphics, rendered in software and written to film a frame at a time.  Each
frame of computer animation for those films took hours to render on
high-end parallel processing computer systems. Thus, that level of graphics
would be difficult, if not impossible, to acheive in real time (30 frames
per second).

It depends upon how serious you are and how advanced your application is.
True immersive visualization (VR), requires the rendering of complex visual
databases at anywhere from 20 to 60 newly rendered frames per second.  This
is a similar requirement to that of traditional flight simulators for pilot
training. If the frame rate is too low, the user notices the stepping of
the frames as they move their head rapidly around the scene, so the motion
of the graphics is not smooth and contiguous.  Thus the graphics system
must be powerful enough to sustain high frame rates while rendering complex
data representations.

Additionally, the frame rate must be constant.  If the system renders 15
frames per second at one point, then 60 frames per second the next (perhaps
due to the scene in the new viewing direction being simpler than what was
visible before), the user can get heavily distracted by the medium (the
graphics computer) rather than focusing on the data. To maintain a constant
frame rate, the system must be able to run in real-time.  UNIX in general
does not support real-time operation, but Silicon Graphics has modified the
UNIX kernel for its multi-processor systems to be able to support real-time
operation, bypassing the usual UNIX process priority-management schemes. 
Uniprocessor systems running UNIX cannot fundamentally support real-time
operation (not Sun SPARC10, not HP 700 Series systems, not IBM RS-6000, not
even SGI's uniprocessor systems like Indigo or Crimson). Only our
multiprocessor Onyx and Challenge systems support real-time operation due
to their Symmetric Multi-Processing (SMP) shared-memory architecture.

From a graphics perspective, rendering complex virtual environments
requires advanced rendering techniques like texture mapping and real-time
multi-sample anti-aliasing.  Of all of the general purpose graphics systems
on the market today, only Crimson RealityEngine and Onyx RealityEngine2
systems fully support these capabilities. The anti-aliasing is particularly
important, as the crawling jagged edges of aliased polygons is an
unfortunate distraction when immersed in a virtual environment.

You can use the general purpose graphics libraries listed above to develop
VR applications, but that is starting at a pretty low level. There are
off-the- shelf software packages available to get you going much faster,
being targeted directly at the VR application developer. Some of the most
popular are (in no particular order):

	- Division Inc.		    (Redwood City, CA) - dVS
	- Sens8 Inc.		    (Sausalito, CA)    - WorldToolKit
	- Naval Postgraduate School (Monterey, CA)     - NPSnet (FREE!)
	- Gemini Technology Corp    (Irvine, CA)       - GVS Simation Series
	- Paradigm Simulation Inc.  (Dallas, TX)       - VisionWorks, AudioWorks
	- Silicon Graphics Inc.	    (Mountain View,CA) - IRIS Performer

There are some others, but not off the top of my head...

There are too many to list here, but here is a smattering:

	- Fake Space Labs	    (Menlo Park,CA)    - BOOM
	- Virtual Technologies Inc. (Stanford, CA)     - CyberGlove
	- Digital Image Design	    (New York, NY)     - The Cricket (3D input)
	- Kaiser Electro Optics	    (Carlsbad, CA)     - Sim Eye Helmet Displays
	- Virtual Research	    (Sunnyvale, CA)    - Flight Helmet display
	- Virtual Reality Inc.	    (Pleasantville,NY) - Head Mtd Displays, s/w
	- Software Systems	    (San Jose, CA)     - 3D Modeling software
	- etc., etc., etc.

Read some of the VR books on the market:

	- Virtual Reality - Ken Pimental and Ken Texiera (sp?)
	- Virtual Mirage
	- Artificial Reality - Myron Kreuger
	- etc.

Or check out the newsgroup sci.virtual_worlds

Feel free to contact me for more info.

Regards,

Josh

-- 

If you force me to do something, am I morally responsible for it?

Well, make up your mind.    Is it to be "instinctive not to murder"
or not?

It's not even correct.    Animals of the same species do kill
one another.

Sigh.   I wonder how many times we have been round this loop.

I think that instinctive bahaviour has no moral significance.
I am quite prepared to believe that higher animals, such as
primates, have the beginnings of a moral sense, since they seem
to exhibit self-awareness.

So what?     Are you trying to say that some killing in animals
has a moral significance and some does not?   Is this your
natural morality>

Are you blind?   What do you think that this sentence means?

	"There must be the possibility that the organism - it's not 
	just people we are talking about - can consider alternatives."

What would that imply?

I find the fact that they do to be significant. 

Here are some recent observations taken by the Hubble Space Telescope:

     o The Faint Object Spectrograph (FOS) was used to make ultraviolet
       observations of both the planet Pluto, and its moon Charon. The
       peakups were successful. The observations were executed as
       scheduled, and no problems were reported.

     o Observations were made using the High Speed Photometer of the Planet
       Uranus during an occultation by a faint star in Capricornus. These
       observations will help in our understanding of the planet's
       atmospheric radiative and dynamical processes. This event occurred
       close to the last quarter moon, and special arrangements had to be
       made to modify the lunar limit tests to allow these observations.
       The observations are currently being reviewed, and all the
       observations looked okay.

I guess that's why scientists probably aren't mentioned either.  Or
stock brokers.  Or television repairmen.  

It's precious to know just how deep the brainwashing from childhood
( that it takes to progress a religion ) cleans away a very substantial
part of the reasoning neurons.

But don't mind me;  I don't exist.

HI All,
Can someone point me towards some articles on 'boids' or
flocking algorithms... ?

Also, articles on particle animation formulas would be nice...
 ________________________________________________________________________
 \________________________________________________________________________\|
---
 þ DeLuxeý 1.25 #8086 þ Head of Co*& XV$# Hi This is a signature virus. Co

Seems he didn't understand anything about realities, liar, lunatic
or the real thing is a very narrow view of the possibilities of Jesus
message.

Sigh, it seems religion makes your mind/brain filter out anything
that does not fit into your personal scheme. 

So anyone that thinks the possibilities with Jesus is bound to the
classical Lewis notion of 'liar, lunatic or saint' is indeed bound
to become a Christian.

Cheers,
Kent

How could this possibly be "environmental vandalism" when there is no
"environment" to vandalize up there?

Since the advertising "is just to help defray costs", it's certainly no
surprise that "the taxpayers would bear most of the expense".  Sounds
like a good idea to me, since the taxpayers would bear _all_ of the
expense if they didn't do the advertising.

Great idea, they should have done it long ago.

I can't believe that a mile-long billboard would have any significant
effect on the overall sky brightness.  Venus is visible during the day,
but nobody complains about that.  Besides, it's in LEO, so it would only
be visible during twilight when the sky is already bright, and even if
it would have some miniscule impact, it would be only for a short time
as it goes zipping across the sky.

No doubt.  People are always looking for something to protest about, so
it would be no surprise.

Well, look on the, er, bright side.  Imagine the looks on the faces of
people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up
and see a can of Budweiser flying across the sky... :-D

--

As I was created in the image of Gaea, therefore I must
be the pinnacle of creation, She which Creates, She which
Births, She which Continues.

Or, to cut all the religious crap, I'm a woman, thanks.
And it's sexism that started me on the road to atheism.

-- 
Maddi Hausmann                       madhaus@netcom.com
Centigram Communications Corp        San Jose California  408/428-3553

Also remember that every dollar spent keeping one spacecraft in safe mode
(probably a spin-stabilized sun-pointing orientation) is a dollar not
spent on mission analysis for a newer spacecraft.  In order to turn the
spacecraft back on, you either need to insure that the Ops guys will be
available, or you need to retrain a new team.

Having said that, there are some spacecraft that do what you have proposed.
Many of the operational satellites Goddard flies (like the Tiros NOAA 
series) require more than one satellite in orbit for an operational set.
Extras which get replaced on-orbit are powered into a "standby" mode for
use in an emergency.  In that case, however, the same ops team is still
required to fly the operational birds; so the standby maintenance is
relatively cheap.

Finally, Pat's explanation (some spacecraft require continuous maintenance
to stay under control) is also right on the mark.  I suggested a spin-
stabilized control mode because it would require little power or 
maintenance, but it still might require some momentum dumping from time
to time.

In the end, it *is* a political decision (since the difference is money),
but there is some technical rationale behind the decision.

My turn to jump in! :)

I think you mean circular, not recursive, but that is semantics.
Recursiveness has no problems, it is just horribly inefficient (just ask
any assembly programmer.)

The oft-quoted line that says people should be guaranteed life, liberty
and the pursuit of happiness as inalienable rights, is a complete lie
and deception, as the very authors of that line were in the process of
proving.  Liberty is never free, it is always purchased at some cost, 
almost always at the cost to another.  Whos liberty is more inalienable?
Similarly for right of life.  When one person must die if he is to save
another, or even a group of others, whos life is more inalienable?  
That leads into the classic question of the value of the death penalty, 
especially for serial killers.  Whos life and liberty is more valuable,
the serial killer, or the victim?  According to that beautiful line,
those two rights should be completely inviolate, that is, noone should be
able to remove them.  This _includes_ government.  Admittedly the serial
killer has restricted some people's life and/or liberty, but is not his
own life/liberty inviolate also?  According to the declaration of independence,
it is.

Oooh, I like that.  It means that killing an infant is not murder because
it cannot be against its will.  Reason, an infant has no will as such.

Similarly for people who are brain dead (easier to see), in a coma, etc.

Also, under current law, accidental killing is still murder.  How will you
include that?

The only real golden rule in life is, he who has the gold, makes the
rules.  I.e. Might Makes Right.  That is survival.  Now what is wrong
with that?

If you mean the golden rule as I stated, yes, almost every system as
implemented has used that in reality.  Sorry, I don't deal as much in
fiction, as I do in reality.  

WELCOME TO OZLAND!!!!!!! :)

What is NOT arbitrary?  If you can find some part of society, some societal
rules, morals, etc. that are not arbitrary, please tell me.  I don't think
there are any.

Sounds like euphemisms to me.  The difference seems to be, that objective
is some reasoning that I like, while arbitrary is some reasoning that
I don't like OR don't understand. 

Hello,

    I am searching for rendering software which has been developed
to specifically take advantage of multi-processor computer systems.
Any pointers to such software would be greatly appreciated.
    
Thanks.

I am looking for comments from people who have used/heard about PhotoShop
for Windows. Is it good? How does it compare to the Mac version? Is there
a lot of bugs (I heard the Windows version needs "fine-tuning)?

Any comments would be greatly appreciated..

Thank you.

So why do I read in the papers that the Qumram texts had "different
versions" of some OT texts.   Did I misunderstand?

From what I read, the other fellow told Salameh how to put it together
over the phone.  The bomb was supposedly some sort of sophisticated
type, so to put a (I assume complicated) sophisticated bomb together
from instructions _over the phone_ (!) one must need some brains I would
expect.

I read this in an article in "The Australian Muslim Times", the
newspaper (weekly) of the Australian Muslim community.  

If this is true, perhaps one of the Muslims based in North America (if
they see this posting) can elaborate.

I don't deny this fact.

The thrust of my argument here is that 

(a) Salameh is, according to US law, innocent as he has not been found
guilty in a court of law.  As his guilt has not been established, it is
wrong for people to make postings based on this assumption.

(b) Islam teaches us _not_ to harm innocents.  If Muslims -- who perhaps
have not realized that Islam teaches this -- perform such actions, it is
_not_ _because_ of the teachings of Islam, but rather _in spite of_ and
_in contradiction to_ the  teachings of Islam.  This is an important 
distinction.

I should clarify what Muslims usually mean when they say "Muslim".  In
general, anyone who calls themselves a "Muslim" and does not do or 
outwardly profess
something in clear contradiction with the essential teachings of Islam
is considered to be a Muslim.  Thus, one who might do things contrary to
Islam (through ignorance, for example) does not suddenly _not_ become a
Muslim.  If one knowingly transgresses Islamic teachings and essential
principles, though, then one does leave Islam.

The term "Muslim" is to be contrasted with "Mu'min", which means "true
believer".  However, whether a Muslim is in reality a Mu'min is
something known only by God (and perhaps that person himself).  So you
will not find the term Mu'min used very much by Muslims in alt.atheism,
because it is not known to anybody (except myself and God), whether I,
for example, am a "true believer" or not.  For example, I could just be
putting on a show here, and in reality believe something opposite to
what I write here, without anyone knowing.  Thus, when we say "Muslims"
we mean all those who outwardly profess to follow Islam, whether in
practice they might, in ignorance, transgress Islamic teachings.  By
"Muslim" we do not necessarily mean "Mu'min", or "true believer" in
Islam.

I will clarify my earlier quote.  God's laws were originally written for 
the Israelites.  Jesus changed that fact by now making the Law applicable to
all people, not just the Jews.  Gentiles could be part of the kingdom of
Heaven through the saving grace of God.  I never said that the Law was made
obsolete by Jesus.

If anything, He clarified the Law such as in that quote you made.  In the
following verses, Jesus takes several portions of the Law and expounds upon
the Law giving clearer meaning to what God intended.  If you'll notice, He
also reams into the Pharisees for mucking up the Law with their own contrived
interpretations.  They knew every letter of the Law and followed it with their
heads but not their hearts.  That is why He points out that our righteousness
must surpass that of the Pharisees in order to be accepted into the kingdom
of Heaven.  People such as the Pharisees are those who really go out of their
way to debate about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.
They had become legalistic, rule-makers - religious lawyers who practiced the
letter of the Law but never really believed in it.  

I think you will agree with me that there are in today's world, a lot of
modern-day Pharisees who know the bible from end to end but do not believe
in it.  What good is head knowledge if there is nothing in the heart?

Christianity is not just a set of rules; it's a lifestyle that changes one's
perspectives and personal conduct.  And it demands obedience to God's will.
Some people can live by it, but many others cannot or will not.  That is their
choice and I have to respect it because God respects it too.

God be with you,

Sorry, but Mormons aren't generally considered to be Christians.

Very easily. Show them pictures of crime scenes perpetrated by Christian
terrorists in this country, if that doesn't convince them have them talk
to the victims of Christian terrorism. 

A brutal act of terrorism inspired by Christian propoganda was recently
commited on your very campus. 

Its very simple religious extremists of all religions put no value on
human life. Christian and Islamic fundamentalists put advancing there
religion above all else, even if doing so violates the religion itself.

P.S. I'm not saying all Christians are terrorists, I'm using "Christian
     terrorist" in the same way the media uses Islamic terrorist.

-> According to the TIFF 5.0 Specification, the TIFF "version number"
-> (bytes 2-3) 42 has been chosen for its "deep philosophical 
-> significance".

-> Last week, I read the Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy, and rotfl the
-> second time. (After millions of years of calculation, the second-best
-> computer of all time reveals that 42 is the answer to the question
-> about life, the universe and everything)

-> Is this actually how they picked the number 42?

-> Does anyone have any  other suggestions where the 42 came from?

   At this moment the King, who had been for some time busily writing in
his note-book, called out "Silence!" and read out from his book
"Rule Forty-two. All persons more than a mile high to leave the court."
   Everybody looked at Alice.
   "I'm not a mile high," said Alice.
   "You are," said the King.
   "Nearly two miles high," added the queen.
   "Well, I sha'n't go, at any rate," said Alice; "besides, that's not
a regular rule: you invented it just now."
   "It's the oldest rule in the book," said the King.
   "Then it ought to be Number One," said Alice.

Are breathable liquids possible?

I remember seeing an old Nova or The Nature of Things where this idea was
touched upon (it might have been some other TV show).  If nothing else, I know
such liquids ARE possible because...

They showed a large glass full of this liquid, and put a white mouse (rat?) in
it.  Since the liquid was not dense, the mouse would float, so it was held down
by tongs clutching its tail.  The thing struggled quite a bit, but it was
certainly held down long enough so that it was breathing the liquid.  It never
did slow down in its frantic attempts to swim to the top.

Now, this may not have been the most humane of demonstrations, but it certainly
shows breathable liquids can be made.

Rick Anderson replied to my letter with...

ra> In article <C5ELp2.L0C@acsu.buffalo.edu>,
ra>
ra> >     Well, Jason, it's heretical in a few ways. The first point is that
ra> >     this equates Lucifer and Jesus as being the same type of being.
ra> >     However, Lucifer is a created being: "Thou [wast] perfect in thy
ra> >     ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in
ra> >     thee." (Ezekiel 28:15). While Jesus is uncreated, and the Creator of
ra> >     all things: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with
ra> >     God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning with God.
ra> >     All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made
ra> >     that was made." (John 1:1-3) "And he is before all things, and by
ra> >     him all things consist." (Colossians 1:17)
ra>
ra>    Your inference from the Ezekiel and John passages that Lucifer was
ra> "created" and that Jesus was not depends on a particular interpetation of
ra> the word "create" -- one with which many Christians may not agree.
ra> Granted the Mormon belief that all of God's children (including Christ
ra> and Lucifer) are eternally existent intelligences which were "organized"
ra> into spirit children by God, the term "creation" can apply equally well
ra> to both of those passages.

     Just briefly, on something that you mentioned in passing. You refer to
     differing interpretations of "create," and say that many Christians may
     not agree. So what? That is really irrelevant. We do not base our faith
     on how many people think one way or another, do we? The bottom line is
     truth, regardless of popularity of opinions.

     Also, I find it rather strange that in trying to persuade that created
     and eternally existent are equivalent, you say "granted the Mormon
     belief..." You can't grant your conclusion and then expect the point to
     have been addressed. In order to reply to the issue, you have to address
     and answer the point that was raised, and not just jump to the
     conclusion that you grant.

     The Bible states that Lucifer was created.  The Bible states that Jesus
     is the creator of all. The contradiction that we have is that the LDS
     belief is that Jesus and Lucifer were the same.

ra> >     Your point that we all are brothers of Jesus and Lucifer is also
ra> >     heretical, since we are not innately brothers and sisters of Christ.
ra> >     We are adopted, "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage
ra> >     again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby
ra> >     we cry, Abba, Father." (Romans 8:15); and not the natural children
ra> >     of God. It is only through faith that we even enter the family of
ra> >     God; "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
ra> >     (Galatians 3:26). And it is only through the manifestation of this
ra> >     faith in receiving Jesus that we are become the sons of God.  "But
ra> >     as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of
ra> >     God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not
ra> >     of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but
ra> >     of God." (John 1:12-13)
ra>
ra>    Has it occured to you, Robert, that being "born of" someone or being
ra> of that person (or Person)'s "family" may be a symbolic term in the New
ra> Testament?  Mormons believe that we are "adopted" into the House of
ra> Israel through baptism and faith in Christ, although some have expressed
ra> belief that this does evince a physical change in our bodies.

     The Mormon belief is that all are children of God. Literally. There is
     nothing symbolic about it. This however, contradicts what the Bible
     says. The Bible teaches that not everyone is a child of God:

          The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the 
          kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
          (Matthew 13:38)

          I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which 
          ye have seen with your father. (John 8:38)

          Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not 
          born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God.  Jesus said 
          unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I 
          proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he 
          sent me.  Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye 
          cannot hear my word.  Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the 
          lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the 
          beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in 
          him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a 
          liar, and the father of it. (John 8:41-44)

          And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, [thou] child of 
          the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease 
          to pervert the right ways of the Lord? (Acts 13:10)

          Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this 
          world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit 
          that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (Ephesians 2:2)

          In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the 
          devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he 
          that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:10)

     One becomes a child of God...

          But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the
          sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)

          Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that
          we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us
          not, because it knew him not.  Beloved, now are we the sons of God,
          and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when
          he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he
          is. (1 John 3:1-2)

     ...when he is born again through faith in Jesus Christ:

          Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of
          the will of man, but of God. (John 1:13)

          Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus
          Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
          (Ephesians 1:5)

          Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should
          be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

          For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of
          God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear;
          but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba,
          Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we
          are the children of God: (Romans 8:14-16)

          Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one
          that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. (1 John 4:7)

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and
          every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is
          begotten of him. (1 John 5:1)

          For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
          (Galatians 3:26)

ra> >     We are told that, "And this is life eternal, that they might know
ra> >     thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
ra> >     (John 17:3). Life eternal is to know the only true God. Yet the
ra> >     doctrines of the LDS that I have mentioned portray a vastly
ra> >     different Jesus, a Jesus that cannot be reconciled with the Jesus of
ra> >     the Bible. They are so far removed from each other that to proclaim
ra> >     one as being true denies the other from being true. According to the
ra> >     Bible, eternal life is dependent on knowing the only true God, and
ra> >     not the construct of imagination.
ra>
ra>
ra>    Robert, with all due respect, who died and left you Chief Arbiter of
ra> Correct Biblical Interpretation?  I don't mean to be snotty about this,
ra> but the fact is that the Bible is so differently interpreted by different
ra> groups of Biblical scholars (what do you think of the Jehovah's
ra> Witnesses, for example?) that to make reference to the "Jesus of the
ra> Bible" is simply ridiculous.  Whose "Jesus of the Bible" do you mean?

     This is really a red herring. It doesn't address any issue raised, but 
     rather, it seeks to obfuscate. The fact that some groups try to read 
     something into the Bible, doesn't change what the Bible teaches. For 
     example, the fact that the Jehovah's Witnesses deny the Deity of Christ 
     does not alter what the Bible teaches [ "Looking for that blessed hope,
     and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus
     Christ;" (Titus 2:13),"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus
     Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through
     the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" (2 Peter 1:1)] 
     on the Deity of Christ.

     We first look to the Bible to see what it teaches. To discount, or not 
     even address, what the Bible teaches because there are some groups that 
     have differing views is self-defeating. To see what the Bible teaches, 
     you have to look at the Bible.

ra> >     "Our Lord's mortality was essential to his own salvation" (_The
ra> >     Promised Messiah_, p. 456), "He had to work out his own salvation by
ra> >     doing the will of the Father in all things" (ibid., p.54), "he had
ra> >     to be baptized to gain admission to the celestial kingdom" (_Mormon
ra> >     Doctrine_, p.71).
ra>
ra>    Welcome to the wonderful world of Mormon paradoctrine, Robert.  The
ra> above books are by the late Bruce R. McConkie, a former general authority
ra> of the LDS Church.  Those books were not published by the Church, nor do
ra> they constitute "offical doctrine."  They consist of his opinions.  Now,
ra> does that mean that what he says is not true?  Not at all; I'll have to
ra> think about the idea of Christ's personal salvation before I come to any
ra> conclusions myself.  The conclusions I come to may seem "heretical" to
ra> you, but I'm prepared to accept that.

     I find this rather curious. When I mentioned that the Mormon belief is
     that Jesus needed to be saved, I put forward some quotes from the late
     apostle, Bruce McConkie. The curious part is that no one addressed the
     issue of `Jesus needing to be saved.' Rick comes the closest with his "I
     have my own conclusions" to addressing the point.

     Most of the other replies have instead hop-scotched to the issue of
     Bruce McConkie and whether his views were 'official doctrine.' I don't
     think that it matters if McConkie's views were canon. That is not the
     issue.  Were McConkie's writings indicative of Mormon belief on this
     subject is the real issue. The indication from Rick is that they may 
     certainly be.

Thanks again Andy.

The image is in pub/delta-clipper now. The name has been changed to 
"dcx-artists-concept.gif" in the spirit of verboseness. :-)

----Chris

Chris W. Johnson

Internet:   chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu
UUCP:       {husc6|uunet}!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!chrisj
CompuServe: >INTERNET:chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu
AppleLink:  chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu@internet#

Hello,

Hello,

     I was wondering if anyone knew of a PC or MAC
implementation of the marching cubes algorithm that will output
the individual faces.  If there is no such application, might there
be some C source code that I could modify to implement the
algorithm and get to the individual faces.

Thanks in advance
Sincerly

Tracy

Hi Adda,

Most Bible scholars agree that there was one copy of each book at a certain
time -- the time when the author wrote it.  Unfortunately, like all works
from this time period and earlier, all that exists today are copies. 

There are parts of books, scraps really, that date from around the
mid second century (A.D. 130+).  There are some complete books, letters,
etc. from the middle third century.  The first complete collection of
the New Testament dates from the early 4th century (A.D. 325).  Throughout
this period are writings of various early church fathers/leaders who
quoted various scriptures in their writings.

If you mean that someone discovered thousands of "Bibles" which were all
perfect copies dating from the last part of the 1st century...No!

If you mean that there are thousands of early manuscripts (within the
dates given above, but not letter perfect) and that the most probable
text can be reconstructed from these documents and that the earliest
original autographs (now lost) probably were written starting sometime
shortly after A.D. 50, then yes.

From the original authors.  We call them Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter,
Paul, James, and one other not identified.

As long as you make it.

Regards,

Are  complex  bio-medical  images  available  anywhere on the net for 
experimentation?  By complex I mean that every sampled data point has 
a magnitude and phase information both. 

When using Photoshop is there anyway to get an elliptical dot for the
halftone screen rather than a round dot ? My printer would prefer an
elliptical dot, but I'm not sure how to set it up. I'm sending from a Mac
IIci to a Linotronic L300 imagesetter and I am using Photoshop 2.0.1 to
make my separations.

Any help would be greatly appreshed. T.I.A. 

Michael (Unscene) 

Michael Maier, Computer Artist, ANL  |  [|Ú]---*Z* Glued to the veiw.      

I am looking for a program that is capable of displaying a graph
with nodes and links and with the possibility to edit interactively
the graph : add one node, change one link etc...

Actually, a very _simple_ X11 program would be ok; all I need is to
put some "boxes" (i.e. the nodes ) on a pane and be able to
manipulate them with the mouse (move, add or delete boxes).

Does anyone know if such program is available ?
Thanks for any help !!

I am looking for some good quality graphics files which are
suitable for use in church-related presentations. I prefer vector,
but anything would be helpful.

If you know of bulletin boards which have collections of this nature, or
commercial products, please inform me by email:

HASTON@UTKVX.UTK.EDU

You're assuming that the low-cost delivery system has to be a separate
project.  But why?  If you are spending hundreds of millions of dollars
in hopes of winning a billion-dollar prize, it is *cheaper* to develop
your own launch system, charging its entire development cost against
your contest entry, than to try to do it with existing launchers.  No
other demand is necessary.

You're assuming that it's going to take a decade to build a new launch
system.  But why?  The Saturn V took less than six years, depending on
exactly when you date its start.  Pegasus took about three from project
start to first flight.  Before SDIO chickened out on orbital development,
the target date for an orbital DC-Y flight was 1996.  If you really want
speed, consider that the first prototypes of the Thor missile (still in
service as the core of the Delta launcher) shipped to the USAF less
than 18 months after the development go-ahead.

Hi!

I am looking for the email address of the author to
"A Generic Solution to Polygon Clipping", 
Communication of the ACM, July 1992, Vol. 35, No. 7. 
I got information about the author as follows
	Mr. Bala R. Vatti
	LCEC, 65 River Road, Hudson, N.H. 03051
	email: vatti@waynar.lcec.lockheed
I want to get some related and detailed papers about the
same topic from the author. But I failed to send my email 
to the address. Any information is appreciated.

Thank you very much.

Best regards.

There is a vast literature on Delaunay triangulations, literally
hundreds of papers.  A program is even provided with every copy of 
Mathematica nowadays.  You might look at this if you are interested in 
using it for creating 3D objects:

Yes, the Phobos mission did return some useful data including images of Phobos
itself. The best I've seen had a surface resolution of about 40 meters. By
the way, the new book entitled "Mars" (Kieffer et al, 1992, University of
Arizona Press) has a great chapter on spacecraft exploration of the planet.
The chapter is co-authored by V.I. Moroz of the Space Research Institute in
Moscow, and includes details never before published in the West. Don't
know of any ftp sites with images though.

==============================
                              GASPRA ANIMATION
                                March 12, 1993
                       ==============================

     The Gaspra animation is now available at the Ames Space Archives in 
QuickTime format.  The animation was formed from 11 images taken by the 
Galileo spaecraft shortly before its closest approach to the asteroid in 
October 1991.  The animation is available using anonymous ftp to:

With the continuin talk about the "End of the Space Age" and complaints 
by government over the large cost, why not try something I read about 
that might just work.

Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation 
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year. 
Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin 
to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!

And that, of course, is the point.   You can't simply divide the
world into atheists and non-atheists on the basis of god-belief.

If all you care about is belief in a supernatural deity, and
have nothing to say about behaviour, then belief in a supernatural
being is your criterion.

But once you start talking about behaviour, then someone's suscept-
ibility to be led by bad people into doing bad things is what you 
are - I assume - worried about.

And in that area, what you care about is whether someone is sceptical,
critical and autonomous on the one hand, or gullible, excitable and
easily led on the other.

I would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates
that a person is easily led.   Whether they have a worship or belief 
in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be
beside the point.

Hi Everyone--

  It's spend-the-money-before-it-goes-away time here at U.Florida
and we need to find some PC-based software that will do contour
plotting with irregular boundaries,i.e., a 2-D profile of a soil
                                    system with a pond superimposed
                /-----------------  on it.  We've given SURFER a
    POND      /                  |  trial run but it interpolates
            /                    |  contours out into the pond and/or
----------/                      |  creates artifacts at the borders.
a response, I'll post a summary.  Thanks -- (and now back to lurking).

Actually, they generally claim that (b) their particular interpretation of
scripture/revelation *is* this objective morality.  That there are two
conflicting versions of this objective morality does tell us something about
(a).  It tells us at least one fake objective morality exists.

The next logical step is to deduce that any given religion's objective
morality could be the fake one.  So caveat emptor.

mathew

I am interested in a 2d/3d graphics library which will allow our design
team to write graphics software for Unix workstations and be as portable as 
possible.  Eventually this software will have to be moved to Microsoft
Windows.  It is my opinion that a good API with hooks to PEX underneath
would prove most portable.

Does anyone out there have any experience with Figaro+ form TGS or
HOOPS from Ithaca Software?  I would appreciate any comments.

- Claye Hart

  I doubt there are good prospects for  a self armoring system
for venus surface conditions (several hundred degrees, very high
pressure of CO2, possibly sulfuric and nitric acids or oxides
but it is a notion to consider for outer planets rs where you might
pick up ices under less extream upper atmosphere conditions buying
deeper penetration.  A nice creative idea, unlikly but worthy of
thinking about.

Just a pointer to the article in the current Science News article
on Federal R&D funding.

Very briefly, all R&D is being shifted to gaining current 
competitive advantage from things like military and other work that
does not have as much commercial utility.

  Could someone please help me find a program or figure out how to extract a li
st of R G B values for each pixel in an image.  I can convert between tga and s
everal other popular formats but I need the R G B values for use in a program I
 am writing.  Thanks for the help

I once read an article on  Computer technology  which stated that 
every new computer technology was actually lower and slower then what it
replaced.  Silicon was less  effective then the germanium  products
then available.   GaAs  was less capable then Silicon.  Multi-processors
were slower then  existent single processors.

What the argument was, though was that these new technologies promised either
theoretically future higher performance  or lower cost or higher densities.

I think that the DC-1  may g=fit into this same model.

ELV's can certainly launch more weight  then  a SSRT,  but 
an SSRT offers the prospect of  greater cycle times and  lower costs.

This is kind of a speculative posting,  but I thought i'd throw it out as
a hjistorical framework  for those interested in the project.

Hi! Everyone,

Since some people quickly solved the problem of determining a sphere from
4 points, I suddenly recalled a problem which is how to find the ellipse
from its offset. For example, given 5 points on the offset, can you find
the original ellipse analytically?

I spent two months solving this problem by using analytical method last year,
but I failed. Under the pressure, I had to use other method - nonlinear
programming technique to deal with this problem approximately.

Any ideas will be greatly appreciated. Please post here, let the others
share our interests.

Did you miss my post on this topic with the quote from The Indonesian
Handbook and Fred Rice's comments about temporary marriages?  If so, 
I will be glad to repost them.  Will you accept that it just may be 
a practice among some Muslims, if I do?  Or will you continue to claim
that we are all lying and that it is "not practised at all amongst Muslims".

I don't think F. Karner has to tell everyone anything.  Least of all that
he is lying.

Since the DC-X is to take off horizontal, why not land that way??
Why do the Martian Landing thing..  Or am I missing something.. Don't know to
much about DC-X and such.. (overly obvious?).

Why not just fall to earth like the russian crafts?? Parachute in then...

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

A 68070 is just a 68010 with a built in MMU.  I don't even think that Moto.
manufactures them.

                                  - Ian Romanick
                                    Dancing Fool of Epsilon

[...Dr. England's story deleted, it was a nice read the first time 
through...]]

	It isn't so much a matter of 'interpretation' of Bible texts 
that sets Mormonism apart from orthodoxy as it is a matter of 
*fabrication*.

	About 20 years ago, _National Lampoon_ had some comic strips 
in them that were drawn by Neal Adams. They were called "Son o' God" comics. 
It was a parody of the Jesus in the Bible. In the comic, there were a 
group of thirteen Jewish kids from Brooklyn, and when one of them said 
the magic word, he turned into "Son o' God." He went from a myopic, 
curly headed, yarmulke wearing boy to a replica of the stylizied 
portraits of Jesus --- with long flowing brown hair and gentile 
features.	

	Now, if someone were to profess faith in this NatLamp Jesus, 
and claim that they were a Christian because they believed in this 
NatLamp Jesus, we would have to say that this was fallacious since 
this Jesus was a fabrication, and did not really exist.

	This is the exact same thing that the LDS do when they claim 
that they are Christian. They profess faith in Jesus, but the Jesus 
that they profess to have faith in is as much a fabrication as the 
NatLamp Jesus was.

Well, when you crosspost to talk.origins, what do you expect?

Archive-name: atheism/logic
Alt-atheism-archive-name: logic
Last-modified: 5 April 1993
Version: 1.4

                       Constructing a Logical Argument

Although there is much argument on Usenet, the general quality of argument
found is poor.  This article attempts to provide a gentle introduction to
logic, in the hope of improving the general level of debate.

Logic is the science of reasoning, proof, thinking, or inference [Concise
OED].  Logic allows us to analyze a piece of reasoning and determine whether
it is correct or not (valid or invalid).  Of course, one does not need to
study logic in order to reason correctly; nevertheless, a little basic
knowledge of logic is often helpful when constructing or analyzing an
argument.

Note that no claim is being made here about whether logic is universally
applicable.  The matter is very much open for debate.  This document merely
explains how to use logic, given that you have already decided that logic is
the right tool for the job.

Propositions (or statements) are the building blocks of a logical argument. A
proposition is a statement which is either true or false; for example, "It is
raining" or "Today is Tuesday".  Propositions may be either asserted (said to
be true) or denied (said to be false).  Note that this is a technical meaning
of "deny", not the everyday meaning.

The proposition is the meaning of the statement, not the particular
arrangement of words used to express it.  So "God exists" and "There exists a
God" both express the same proposition.

An argument is, to quote the Monty Python sketch, "a connected series of
statements to establish a definite proposition".  An argument consists of
three stages.

First of all, the propositions which are necessary for the argument to
continue are stated.  These are called the premises of the argument.  They
are the evidence or reasons for accepting the argument and its conclusions. 

Premises (or assertions) are often indicated by phrases such as "because",
"since", "obviously" and so on.  (The phrase "obviously" is often viewed with
suspicion, as it can be used to intimidate others into accepting suspicious
premises.  If something doesn't seem obvious to you, don't be afraid to
question it.  You can always say "Oh, yes, you're right, it is obvious" when
you've heard the explanation.)

Next, the premises are used to derive further propositions by a process known
as inference.  In inference, one proposition is arrived at on the basis of
one or more other propositions already accepted.  There are various forms of
valid inference.

The propositions arrived at by inference may then be used in further
inference.  Inference is often denoted by phrases such as "implies that" or
"therefore".

Finally, we arrive at the conclusion of the argument -- the proposition which
is affirmed on the basis of the premises and inference.  Conclusions are often
indicated by phrases such as "therefore", "it follows that", "we conclude"
and so on.  The conclusion is often stated as the final stage of inference.

For example:

Every event has a cause (premise)
The universe has a beginning (premise)
All beginnings involve an event (premise)
This implies that the beginning of the universe involved an event (inference)
Therefore the universe has a cause (inference and conclusion)

Note that the conclusion of one argument might be a premise in another
argument.  A proposition can only be called a premise or a conclusion with
respect to a particular argument; the terms do not make sense in isolation.

Sometimes an argument will not follow the order given above; for example,
the conclusions might be stated first and the premises stated 
afterwards in support of the conclusion.  This is perfectly valid, if 
sometimes a little confusing.

Recognizing an argument is much harder than recognizing premises or
conclusions.  Many people shower their writing with assertions without ever
producing anything which one might reasonably describe as an argument.  Some
statements look like arguments, but are not.  For example:

"If the Bible is accurate, Jesus must either have been insane, an evil liar,
 or the Son of God."

This is not an argument, it is a conditional statement.  It does not assert
the premises which are necessary to support what appears to be its 
conclusion.  (It also suffers from a number of other logical flaws, but we'll
come to those later.)

Another example:

"God created you; therefore do your duty to God."

The phrase "do your duty to God" is not a proposition, since it is neither
true nor false.  Therefore it is not a conclusion, and the sentence is not an
argument.

Finally, causality is important.  Consider a statement of the form "A because
B".  If we're interested in establishing A and B is offered as evidence, the
statement is an argument.  If we're trying to establish the truth of B, then
it is not an argument, it is an explanation.

"There must be something wrong with the engine of my car, because it will not
 start." -- This is an argument.

"My car will not start because there is something wrong with the engine."
 -- This is an explanation.

There are two traditional types of argument, deductive and inductive.  A
deductive argument is one which provides conclusive proof of its conclusions
-- that is, an argument where if the premises are true, the conclusion must
also be true.  A deductive argument is either valid or invalid.  A valid
argument is defined as one where if the premises are true, then the
conclusion is true.

An inductive argument is one where the premises provide some evidence for the
truth of the conclusion.  Inductive arguments are not valid or invalid;
however, we can talk about whether they are better or worse than other
arguments, and about how probable their premises are.

There are forms of argument in ordinary language which are neither deductive
nor inductive.  However, we will concentrate for the moment on deductive
arguments, as they are often viewed as the most rigorous and convincing.

It is important to note that the fact that a deductive argument is valid does
not imply that its conclusion holds.  This is because of the slightly 
counter-intuitive nature of implication, which we must now consider more
carefully.

Obviously a valid argument can consist of true propositions.  However, an
argument may be entirely valid even if it contains only false propositions. 

   All insects have wings (premise)
   Woodlice are insects (premise)
   Therefore woodlice have wings (conclusion)

Here, the conclusion is not true because the argument's premises are false. 
If the argument's premises were true, however, the conclusion would be true. 
The argument is thus entirely valid.

More subtly, we can reach a true conclusion from one or more false premises,
as in:

   All fish live in the sea (premise)
   Dolphins are fish (premise)
   Therefore dolphins live in the sea (conclusion)

However, the one thing we cannot do is reach a false conclusion through valid
inference from true premises.  We can therefore draw up a "truth table" for
implication.

The symbol "=>" denotes implication; "A" is the premise, "B" the conclusion. 
"T" and "F" represent true and false respectively.

Premise Conclusion Inference
   A        B        A=>B
----------------------------
   F        F         T      If the premises are false and the inference
   F        T         T      valid, the conclusion can be true or false.

   T        F         F      If the premises are true and the conclusion
                             false, the inference must be invalid.

   T        T         T      If the premises are true and the inference valid,
                             the conclusion must be true.

A sound argument is a valid argument whose premises are true.  A sound 
argument therefore arrives at a true conclusion.  Be careful not to confuse
valid arguments with sound arguments.

To delve further into the structure of logical arguments would require
lengthy discussion of linguistics and philosophy.  It is simpler and probably
more useful to summarize the major pitfalls to be avoided when constructing
an argument.  These pitfalls are known as fallacies.

In everyday English the term "fallacy" is used to refer to mistaken beliefs
as well as to the faulty reasoning that leads to those beliefs.  This is fair
enough, but in logic the term is generally used to refer to a form of
technically incorrect argument, especially if the argument appears valid or
convincing.

So for the purposes of this discussion, we define a fallacy as a logical
argument which appears to be correct, but which can be seen to be incorrect
when examined more closely.  By studying fallacies we aim to avoid being
misled by them.  The following list of fallacies is not intended to be
exhaustive.

ARGUMENTUM AD BACULUM (APPEAL TO FORCE)

The Appeal to Force is committed when the arguer resorts to force or the
threat of force in order to try and push the acceptance of a conclusion.  It
is often used by politicians, and can be summarized as "might makes right". 
The force threatened need not be a direct threat from the arguer.

"... Thus there is ample proof of the truth of the Bible.  All those who
refuse to accept that truth will burn in Hell."

ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM

Argumentum ad hominem is literally "argument directed at the man".

The Abusive variety of Argumentum ad Hominem occurs when, instead of trying
to disprove the truth of an assertion, the arguer attacks the person or
people making the assertion.  This is invalid because the truth of an
assertion does not depend upon the goodness of those asserting it.

"Atheism is an evil philosophy.  It is practised by Communists and murderers."

Sometimes in a court of law doubt is cast upon the testimony of a witness by 
showing, for example, that he is a known perjurer.  This is a valid way of
reducing the credibility of the testimony given by the witness, and not
argumentum ad hominem; however, it does not demonstrate that the witness's
testimony is false.  To conclude otherwise is to fall victim of the
Argumentum ad Ignorantiam (see elsewhere in this list).

The circumstantial form of Argumentum ad Hominem is committed when a person
argues that his opponent ought to accept the truth of an assertion because of
the opponent's particular circumstances.

"It is perfectly acceptable to kill animals for food.  How can you argue
otherwise when you're quite happy to wear leather shoes?"

This is an abusive charge of inconsistency, used as an excuse for dismissing
the opponent's argument.

This fallacy can also be used as a means of rejecting a conclusion.  For 
example:

"Of course you would argue that positive discrimination is a bad thing. 
You're white."

This particular form of Argumentum ad Hominem, when one alleges that one's
adversary is rationalizing a conclusion formed from selfish interests, is
also known as "poisoning the well".

ARGUMENTUM AD IGNORANTIUM

Argumentum ad ignorantium means "argument from ignorance".  This fallacy
occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply because it
has not been proved false.  Or, equivalently, when it is argued that
something must be false because it has not been proved true.  (Note that this
is not the same as assuming that something is false until it has been proved
true, a basic scientific principle.)

Examples:
"Of course the Bible is true.  Nobody can prove otherwise."

"Of course telepathy and other psychic phenomena do not exist.  Nobody has
shown any proof that they are real."

Note that this fallacy does not apply in a court of law, where one is
generally assumed innocent until proven guilty.

Also, in scientific investigation if it is known that an event would produce
certain evidence of its having occurred, the absence of such evidence can 
validly be used to infer that the event did not occur.  For example:

"A flood as described in the Bible would require an enormous volume of water
to be present on the earth.  The earth does not have a tenth as much water,
even if we count that which is frozen into ice at the poles.  Therefore no
such flood occurred."

In science, we can validly assume from lack of evidence that something has
not occurred.  We cannot conclude with certainty that it has not occurred,
however.

ARGUMENTUM AD MISERICORDIAM

This is the Appeal to Pity, also known as Special Pleading.  The fallacy is 
committed when the arguer appeals to pity for the sake of getting a 
conclusion accepted.  For example:

"I did not murder my mother and father with an axe.  Please don't find me
guilty; I'm suffering enough through being an orphan."

ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM

This is known as Appealing to the Gallery, or Appealing to the People.  To
commit this fallacy is to attempt to win acceptance of an assertion by
appealing to a large group of people.  This form of fallacy is often
characterized by emotive language.  For example:

"Pornography must be banned.  It is violence against women."

"The Bible must be true.  Millions of people know that it is.  Are you trying
to tell them that they are all mistaken fools?"

ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM

This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum.  It consists of
asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the more
likely it is that that proposition is correct.

ARGUMENTUM AD VERECUNDIAM

The Appeal to Authority uses the admiration of the famous to try and win
support for an assertion.  For example:

"Isaac Newton was a genius and he believed in God."

This line of argument is not always completely bogus; for example, reference
to an admitted authority in a particular field may be relevant to a
discussion of that subject.  For example, we can distinguish quite clearly
between:

"Stephen Hawking has concluded that black holes give off radiation"
and
"John Searle has concluded that it is impossible to build an intelligent
 computer"

Hawking is a physicist, and so we can reasonably expect his opinions on black
hole radiation to be informed.  Searle is a linguist, so it is questionable 
whether he is well-qualified to speak on the subject of machine intelligence.

THE FALLACY OF ACCIDENT

The Fallacy of Accident is committed when a general rule is applied to a
particular case whose "accidental" circumstances mean that the rule is
inapplicable.  It is the error made when one goes from the general to the
specific.  For example:

"Christians generally dislike atheists.  You are a Christian, so you must
dislike atheists."

This fallacy is often committed by moralists and legalists who try to decide
every moral and legal question by mechanically applying general rules.

CONVERSE ACCIDENT / HASTY GENERALIZATION

This fallacy is the reverse of the fallacy of accident.  It occurs when one
forms a general rule by examining only a few specific cases which are not
representative of all possible cases.

"Jim Bakker was an insincere Christian.  Therefore all Christians are
insincere."

SWEEPING GENERALIZATION / DICTO SIMPLICITER

A sweeping generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a
particular situation in which the features of that particular situation
render the rule inapplicable.  A sweeping generalization is the opposite of a
hasty generalization.

NON CAUSA PRO CAUSA / POST HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC

These are known as False Cause fallacies.

The fallacy of Non Causa Pro Causa occurs when one identifies something as the
cause of an event but it has not actually been shown to be the cause.  For 
example:

"I took an aspirin and prayed to God, and my headache disappeared.  So God
cured me of the headache."

The fallacy of Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc occurs when something is assumed to
be the cause of an event merely because it happened before the event.  For 
example:

"The Soviet Union collapsed after taking up atheism.  Therefore we must avoid
atheism for the same reasons."

CUM HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC

This fallacy is similar to post hoc ergo propter hoc.  It asserts that
because two events occur together, they must be causally related, and leaves
no room for other factors that may be the cause(s) of the events.

PETITIO PRINCIPII

This fallacy occurs when the premises are at least as questionable as the
conclusion reached.

CIRCULUS IN DEMONSTRANDO

This fallacy occurs when one assumes as a premise the conclusion which one
wishes to reach.  Often, the proposition will be rephrased so that the
fallacy appears to be a valid argument.  For example:

"Homosexuals must not be allowed to hold government office.  Hence any
government official who is revealed to be a homosexual will lose his job. 
Therefore homosexuals will do anything to hide their secret, and will be open
to blackmail.  Therefore homosexuals cannot be allowed to hold government
office."

Note that the argument is entirely circular; the premise is the same as the 
conclusion.  An argument like the above has actually been cited as the reason
for the British Secret Services' official ban on homosexual employees. 
Another example is the classic:

"We know that God exists because the Bible tells us so.  And we know that the
Bible is true because it is the word of God."

COMPLEX QUESTION / FALLACY OF INTERROGATION

This is the Fallacy of Presupposition.  One example is the classic loaded 
question:

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

The question presupposes a definite answer to another question which has not
even been asked.  This trick is often used by lawyers in cross-examination,
when they ask questions like:

"Where did you hide the money you stole?"

Similarly, politicians often ask loaded questions such as:

"How long will this EC interference in our affairs be allowed to continue?"
or
"Does the Chancellor plan two more years of ruinous privatization?"

IGNORATIO ELENCHI

The fallacy of Irrelevant Conclusion consists of claiming that an argument 
supports a particular conclusion when it is actually logically nothing to do
with that conclusion.

For example, a Christian may begin by saying that he will argue that the
teachings of Christianity are undoubtably true.  If he then argues at length
that Christianity is of great help to many people, no matter how well he
argues he will not have shown that Christian teachings are true.

Sadly, such fallacious arguments are often successful because they arouse
emotions which cause others to view the supposed conclusion in a more
favourable light.

EQUIVOCATION

Equivocation occurs when a key word is used with two or more different
meanings in the same argument.  For example:

"What could be more affordable than free software?  But to make sure that it
remains free, that users can do what they like with it, we must place a
license on it to make sure that will always be freely redistributable."

AMPHIBOLY

Amphiboly occurs when the premises used in an argument are ambiguous because
of careless or ungrammatical phrasing.

ACCENT

Accent is another form of fallacy through shifting meaning.  In this case,
the meaning is changed by altering which parts of a statement are
emphasized.  For example, consider:

"We should not speak ILL of our friends"
and
"We should not speak ill of our FRIENDS"

FALLACIES OF COMPOSITION

One fallacy of composition is to conclude that a property shared by the parts
of something must apply to the whole.  For example:

"The bicycle is made entirely of low mass components, and is therefore very 
lightweight."

The other fallacy of composition is to conclude that a property of a number
of individual items is shared by a collection of those items.  For example:

"A car uses less petrol and causes less pollution than a bus.  Therefore cars
are less environmentally damaging than buses."

FALLACY OF DIVISION

The fallacy of division is the opposite of the fallacy of composition.  Like
its opposite, it exists in two varieties.  The first is to assume that a
property of some thing must apply to its parts.  For example:

"You are studying at a rich college.  Therefore you must be rich."

The other is to assume that a property of a collection of items is shared by
each item.  For example:

"Ants can destroy a tree.  Therefore this ant can destroy a tree."

THE SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT

This argument states that should one event occur, so will other harmful
events.  There is no proof made that the harmful events are caused by the
first event.

"If we legalize marijuana, then we would have to legalize crack and heroin
and we'll have a nation full of drug-addicts on welfare.  Therefore we cannot
legalize marijuana."

"A IS BASED ON B" FALLACIES / "IS A TYPE OF" FALLACIES

These fallacies occur when one attempts to argue that things are in some way
similar without actually specifying in what way they are similar.

Examples:
"Isn't history based upon faith?  If so, then isn't the Bible also a form of
history?"

"Islam is based on faith, Christianity is based on faith, so isn't Islam a
form of Christianity?"

"Cats are a form of animal based on carbon chemistry, dogs are a form of
animal based on carbon chemistry, so aren't dogs a form of cat?"

AFFIRMATION OF THE CONSEQUENT

This fallacy is an argument of the form "A implies B, B is true, therefore A
is true".  To understand why it is a fallacy, examine the truth table for
implication given earlier.

DENIAL OF THE ANTECEDENT

This fallacy is an argument of the form "A implies B, A is false, therefore B
is false".  Again, the truth table for implication makes it clear why this is
a fallacy.

Note that this fallacy is different from Non Causa Pro Causa; the latter has
the form "A implies B, A is false, therefore B is false", where A does NOT in
fact imply B at all.  Here, the problem is not that the implication is
invalid; rather it is that the falseness of A does not allow us to deduce
anything about B.

CONVERTING A CONDITIONAL

This fallacy is an argument of the form "If A then B, therefore if B then A".

ARGUMENTUM AD ANTIQUITAM

This is the fallacy of asserting that something is right or good simply
because it is old, or because "that's the way it's always been."

ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM

This is the opposite of the argumentum ad antiquitam; it is the fallacy of
asserting that something is more correct simply because it is new or newer
than something else.

ARGUMENTUM AD CRUMENAM

The fallacy of believing that money is a criterion of correctness; that those
with more money are more likely to be right.

ARGUMENTUM AD LAZARUM

The fallacy of assuming that because someone is poor he or she is sounder or
more virtuous than one who is wealthier.  This fallacy is the opposite of the
argumentum ad crumenam.

ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEAM

This is the incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true the
more often it is heard.  An "argumentum ad nauseum" is one that employs
constant repetition in asserting something.

BIFURCATION

Also referred to as the "black and white" fallacy, bifurcation occurs when
one presents a situation as having only two alternatives, where in fact other
alternatives exist or can exist.

PLURIUM INTERROGATIONUM / MANY QUESTIONS

This fallacy occurs when a questioner demands a simple answer to a complex
question.

NON SEQUITUR

A non-sequitur is an argument where the conclusion is drawn from premises
which are not logically connected with it.

RED HERRING

This fallacy is committed when irrelevant material is introduced to the issue
being discussed, so that everyone's attention is diverted away from the
points being made, towards a different conclusion.

REIFICATION / HYPOSTATIZATION

Reification occurs when an abstract concept is treated as a concrete thing.

SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF

The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or
proposition.  Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad
ignorantium, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who
denies or questions the assertion being made.  The source of the fallacy is
the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.

STRAW MAN

The straw man fallacy is to misrepresent someone else's position so that it
can be attacked more easily, then to knock down that misrepresented position,
then to conclude that the original position has been demolished.  It is a
fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that have been
made.

THE EXTENDED ANALOGY

The fallacy of the Extended Analogy often occurs when some suggested general
rule is being argued over.  The fallacy is to assume that mentioning two 
different situations, in an argument about a general rule, constitutes a 
claim that those situations are analogous to each other.

This fallacy is best explained using a real example from a debate about 
anti-cryptography legislation:

"I believe it is always wrong to oppose the law by breaking it."

"Such a position is odious: it implies that you would not have supported
 Martin Luther King."

"Are you saying that cryptography legislation is as important as the
 struggle for Black liberation?  How dare you!"

TU QUOQUE

This is the famous "you too" fallacy.  It occurs when an action is argued to
be acceptable because the other party has performed it.  For instance:

"You're just being randomly abusive."
"So?  You've been abusive too."

Do you question the existence of Alexander the Great, Tilgrath Pilisar III,
Nero, Caligula, Josephus, Cyrus the Great, Artexerxes?   Their documents
have decayed to dust too.  Brian, why another excuse? 

Peter wrote a bit of the Bible.  What Peter says about God is what
the Bible says.   

Consider the Bible a court recording.  Over the period of thousands of
years, various people come up and testify of their experience with the
living God.  Up comes Abraham the wealthy rancher.  Up comes Moses,
once the high official of Egypt.  Up comes Elijah, a priest.  Up comes
David, a mere shepherd who became King.  Up comes the pagan King 
Nebuchanezzar.  Up comes the pagan King of Persia, Cyrus.  Up comes
Nehemiah, cupbearer to the King of Persia.  Then Matthew, an IRS agent
takes the stand.  Up comes Luke, an M.D.  Then Paul a Jew who use
to kill Christians for fun.  Up comes John, a 17 year old boy.  Up
comes Peter, a fishermen.  Up comes James, the brother of Jesus himself.
Up comes hundreds of others.  You hear testimony from fishermen, IRS
agents, priests, Kings.  The court hearing lasts thousands of years
with people coming up and testifying about the God who calls himself
"I am." 

While you are listening to all this stuff, you realize that
King David could have never known John, Solomon could have never known
Matthew, Nehemiah could have never known Peter.  You realize that all these
people are independent witnesses, and so, you rule out collaboration.  Yet
all of the witnesses tell of the same God.   Each testifier tells
of his own experiences with the living God.  Each experience is
different, but each experience has enough cross-over to unmistakenly
reveal that each one of these people is talking about the very same God.
What Daniel did not know about God, the 3rd Highest Official of
Babylon, God revealed to John 600 years later--but with a different
perspective.  No two testimonies are identical.  Each testimony
dares to venture off what is already known.  Yet each witness's
testimony, even though different from those prior, consistently
describes harmoniously fitting facets of the character of the same God.  

Now.  As we stare gazing at the computer, you got this seeming fanatic
on the other end of the net, saying, I know this God  "I am".  He has
revealed himself to me too.  He also calls himself Jesus (John 8:58).
Please believe me.  I am telling the truth.  It is wonderful to know him.

Even worse, the city of Atlanta has a proposal before it to rent space on this
orbiting billboard.  Considering the caliber of people running this city, 
there's no telling what we're going to have leering down at us from orbit.

All of this talk about a COMMERCIAL space race (i.e. $1G to the first 1-year 
moon base) is intriguing. Similar prizes have influenced aerospace 
development before. The $25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit of 
Saint Louis venture to his financial backers.

If memory serves, the $25k prize would not have been enough to totally 
reimburse some of the more expensive transatlantic projects (such as 
Fokker's, Nungesser and other multi-engine projects). However Lindbergh 
ultimately kept his total costs below that amount.

But I strongly suspect that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to 
realize that much more was at stake than $25,000.

Could it work with the moon? Who are the far-sighted financial backers of 
today?

I agree fully with the above statement and is *precisely* what I meant
by my previous statements about Islam not being anarchist and the
law not being _enforcible_ despite the _law_ being applicable. 

I disagree with this conclusion about the _applicability_ of the 
Islamic law to all muslims, wherever they may be. The above conclusion 
does not strictly follow from the foregoing, but only the conclusion 
that the fatwa cannot be *enforced* according to Islamic law. However, 
I do agree that the punishment cannot be applied to Rushdie even *were*
it well founded.

Certainly putting a price on the head of Rushdie in Britain is a criminal 
act according to Islamic law. 

Yes.

Sterrenkundig symposium 'Compacte Objecten'
                                             op 26 april 1993

In het jaar 1643, zeven jaar na de oprichting van de
Universiteit van Utrecht, benoemde de universiteit haar
eerste sterrenkundige waarnemer. Hiermee ontstond de tweede
universiteitssterrenwacht ter wereld. Aert Jansz, de eerste
waarnemer, en zijn opvolgers voerden de Utrechtse sterrenkunde
in de daaropvolgende jaren, decennia en eeuwen naar de
voorhoede van het astronomisch onderzoek. Dit jaar is het 350
jaar geleden dat deze historische benoeming plaatsvond.

De huidige generatie Utrechtse sterrenkundigen en studenten
sterrenkunde, verenigd in het Sterrekundig Instituut Utrecht,
vieren de benoeming van hun 'oervader' middels een breed scala
aan feestelijke activiteiten. Zo is er voor scholieren een
planetenproject, programmeert de Studium Generale een aantal
voordrachten met een sterrenkundig thema en wordt op de Dies
Natalis aan een astronoom een eredoctoraat uitgereikt. Er
staat echter meer op stapel.

Studenten natuur- en sterrenkunde kunnen op 26 april aan een
sterrenkundesymposium deelnemen. De onderwerpen van het
symposium zijn opgebouwd rond een van de zwaartepunten van het
huidige Utrechtse onderzoek: het onderzoek aan de zogeheten
'compacte objecten', de eindstadia in de evolutie van sterren.
Bij de samenstelling van het programma is getracht de
deelnemer een zo aktueel en breed mogelijk beeld te geven van
de stand van zaken in het onderzoek aan deze eindstadia. In de
eerste, inleidende lezing zal dagvoorzitter prof. Lamers een
beknopt overzicht geven van de evolutie van zware sterren,
waarna de zeven overige sprekers in lezingen van telkens een
half uur nader op de specifieke evolutionaire eindprodukten
zullen ingaan. Na afloop van elke lezing is er gelegenheid tot
het stellen van vragen. Het dagprogramma staat afgedrukt op
een apart vel.
Het niveau van de lezingen is afgestemd op tweedejaars
studenten natuur- en sterrenkunde. OOK ANDERE BELANGSTELLENDEN
ZIJN VAN HARTE WELKOM!

Tijdens de lezing van prof. Kuijpers zullen, als alles goed
gaat, de veertien radioteleskopen van de Radiosterrenwacht
Westerbork worden ingezet om via een directe verbinding tussen
het heelal, Westerbork en Utrecht het zwakke radiosignaal van
een snel roterende kosmische vuurtoren, een zogeheten pulsar,
in de symposiumzaal door te geven en te audiovisualiseren.
Prof. Kuijpers zal de binnenkomende signalen (elkaar snel
opvolgende scherp gepiekte pulsen radiostraling) bespreken en
trachten te verklaren.
Het slagen van dit unieke experiment staat en valt met de
technische haalbaarheid ervan. De op te vangen signalen zijn
namelijk zo zwak, dat pas na een waarnemingsperiode van 10
miljoen jaar genoeg energie is opgevangen om een lamp van 30
Watt een seconde te laten branden! Tijdens het symposium zal
er niet zo lang gewacht hoeven te worden: de hedendaagse
technologie stelt ons in staat live het heelal te beluisteren.

Deelname aan het symposium kost f 4,- (exclusief lunch) en
f 16,- (inclusief lunch). Inschrijving geschiedt door het
verschuldigde bedrag over te maken op ABN-AMRO rekening
44.46.97.713 t.n.v. stichting 350 JUS. Het gironummer van de
ABN-AMRO bank Utrecht is 2900. Bij de inschrijving dient te
worden aangegeven of men lid is van de NNV. Na inschrijving
wordt de symposiummap toegestuurd. Bij inschrijving na
31 maart vervalt de mogelijkheid een lunch te reserveren.

Het symposium vindt plaats in Transitorium I,
Universiteit Utrecht.

Voor meer informatie over het symposium kan men terecht bij
Henrik Spoon, p/a S.R.O.N., Sorbonnelaan 2, 3584 CA Utrecht.
Tel.: 030-535722. E-mail: henriks@sron.ruu.nl.

******* DAGPROGRAMMA **************************************

 9:30   ONTVANGST MET KOFFIE & THEE

10:00   Opening
           Prof. dr. H.J.G.L.M. Lamers (Utrecht)

10:10   Dubbelster evolutie
           Prof. dr. H.J.G.L.M. Lamers

10:25   Radiopulsars
           Prof. dr. J.M.E. Kuijpers (Utrecht)

11:00   Pulsars in dubbelster systemen
           Prof. dr. F. Verbunt (Utrecht)

11:50   Massa & straal van neutronensterren
           Prof. dr. J. van Paradijs (Amsterdam)

12:25   Theorie van accretieschijven
           Drs. R.F. van Oss (Utrecht)

13:00   LUNCH

14:00   Hoe zien accretieschijven er werkelijk uit?
           Dr. R.G.M. Rutten (Amsterdam)

14:35   Snelle fluktuaties bij accretie op neutronensterren
        en zwarte gaten
           Dr. M. van der Klis (Amsterdam)

15:10   THEE & KOFFIE

15:30   Zwarte gaten: knippen en plakken met ruimte en tijd
           Prof. dr. V. Icke (leiden)

16:05   afsluiting

16:25   BORREL

Most likely the tragic situation in Bosnia is a combination of ethnical
and religious motives, where religion is just one attribute that separates
the groups from each other.

But I must agree that the sad saga in Bosnia is a terrible example
of a case where religion is not helping, instead it is used as a weapon
against other humans. And my sympathies are mostly on the Bosnian side,
it looks like the Serbs are the oppressors, willing to use even
Christianity as a weapon against their former friends.

Cheers,
Kent

	If given a definite definition of "God", it is sometimes possible to 
falsify the existance of that God. 
	But, when one refuses to give an immutable definition, one can not.

--- 

        " Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken. "

Yes I am aware CorelDraw exports in SCODAL.
Version 2 did it quite well, apart from a
few hassles with radial fills. Version 3 RevB
is better but if you try to export in SCODAL
with a bitmap image included in the drawing
it will say something like "cannot export
SCODAL with bitmap"- at least it does on my
version.
 If anyone out there knows a way around this
I am all ears.
 Temporal images make a product called Filmpak
which converts Autocad plots to SCODAL, postscript
to SCODAL and now GIF to SCODAL but it costs $650
and I was just wondering if there was anything out
there that just did the bitmap to SCODAL part a tad
cheaper.

I understand and sympathize with your pain.  What happened in Waco was a very
sad tradgedy.  Don't take it out on us Christians though.  The Branch
Davidians were not an organized religion.  They were a cult led by a ego-maniac
cult leader.  The Christian faith stands only on the shoulders of one man,
the Lord of Lords and King of Kings, Jesus Christ.   BTW, David Koresh was NOT
Jesus Christ as he claimed.

Malcolm Lee  :)

No, do I have to?    I'm just commenting that it makes very
little sense to consider everything we inherit to be the default.

Seen any steam trains recently?

If all of these things have been detected in space, has anyone
looked into possible problems with the detectors?

That is, is there some mechanism (cosmic rays, whatever) that
could cause the dector to _think_ it was seeing one of these
things?

  More info please.  I'm not well exposed to these ideas.

:
:
:::Didn't Christ tell his disciples to arm them selves, shortly 
:::before his crusifiction? (I believe the exact quote was along the
:::lines of, "If you have [something] sell it and buy a sword.")
:
::This from a guy who preached love, deference of power to God and
::renunciation of worldly life in exchange for a life of the spirit? If
::Jesus did in fact command his disciples to arm themselves, I would
::take that as yet another reason to reject Christian doctrine, for
::whatever it's worth.

Like most religions, the doctrine has good and bad in it.  I would 
certainly reject the current implementations of the doctrine.
:
:No.  The above is a classic example of taking a scripture out of context.
:It's taken from Luke 22:36.  But note vs 37; "For I tell you that this
:which is written must be accomplished in me, namely, 'and he will be reckoned
:with lawless ones'...".  He then stated that two swords were enough
:for the group to carry to be counted as lawless.  

So having more than the politically correct number of weapons was
cause to be arresed and killed even then, huh?

:Jesus' overiding message was one of peace (turn other cheek; live by 
:sword die by sword; etc).

Yes, of course, as in Matthew 10:34-35 "Do not suppose that I have come to 
bring peace to the earth; it is not peace I have come to bring but a sword..."
:
RJL

Then Mr Mozumder is incorrect when he says that when committing
bad acts, people temporarily become atheists?

[constitution sacrificed to the bandwidth gods]

im glad i finally have heard exactly what the OTO is all about.  i finally
know that i can stop looking, content i the knowlege that im not interested.
it's tough enough listening to all the religions who refer to themselves as
"the One Truth".  How can i possibly accept it from a magical order?  "We have
all the Answers and will give them to those who join us (and pay dues)?"
Scary.  Besides, answers are easy.  Questions!  now that's another story...

rintaw

I was assuming that there won't be a moon base unless it makes a
profit, actually.  If it does, well, that gives a larger GNP which
leads to being able to spend more money on your military, including
gosh-wow space stuff.  (assuming it's profitable, rather than paying
for itself.)

You might be able to _run_ one for that; put it there, hardly.

Why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will
be significant commerical activity on the Moon?

Didn't one of the early jet fighters have these?
I also think the germans did some work on these in WWII.

A lot of this was also done by the military...

Weren't the first microwave landing systems from WWII too?

Egad! I'm disagreeing with Mary Shafer!

This is a good point, but I think "average" people do not take up Christianity
so much out of fear or escapism, but, quite simply, as a way to improve their
social life, or to get more involved with American culture, if they are kids of
immigrants for example.  Since it is the overwhelming major religion in the
Western World (in some form or other), it is simply the choice people take if
they are bored and want to do something new with their lives, but not somethong
TOO new, or TOO out of the ordinary.  Seems a little weak, but as long as it
doesn't hurt anybody...
 
These are good quotes, and I agree with both of them, but let's make sure to
alter the scond one so that includes something like "...let him be, as long as
he is not preventing others from finding their peace." or something like that. 
(Of course, I suppose, if someone were REALLY "at peace", there would be no
need for inflicting evangelism)

Well, it is a sure thing we will have to live with them all our lives.  Their
popularity seems to come and go.  I remember when I first entered High School,
I was an atheist (always had been) and so were about 7 of my friends.  At this
time, 5 of those 7 have converted, always to Christianity (they were all also
immigrants from Taiwan, or sons of immigrants, hence my earlier gross
generalization).  Christianity seems a lot more popular to people now than it
ever has before (since I've been noticing).  Maybe it is just my perceptions
that are chagning.  Who knows?
I for one am perfectly willing to live and let live with them, so long as we
have some set of abstract rights/agreements on how we should treat each other:
I have no desire to be hurt by them or their notions.  For all the well-put
arguments on this usenet, it never does any good.  Argumentation does not
really seem to apply to Christians (or even some atheists)- it must simply be a
step the person takes naturally, almost, "instinctively"...

best regards,

********************************************************************************
* Adam John Cooper		"Verily, often have I laughed at the weaklings *
*				   who thought themselves good simply because  *
* acooper@macalstr.edu				they had no claws."	       *

The trouble with trying to find out the truth is that Roehm and his
buddies were ACCUSED OF being flaming faggots, one of the pretexts for the
Night of Long Knives in which Roehm and most of the SA wing of the NSDAP
were purged.  Since the accusers thereafter controlled the records,
anything bearing on the subject -- true or not -- has to be considered
tainted evidence.  The available data suggest that Roehm and his crowd,
the SA -- Sturmabteilung, "Storm Troopers" -- left the world a better
place when they departed, but concrete particulars are still no more than
more or less shrewd guesses.  
-- Diccon Frankborn

Great speculation - I remember being proud on behalf of all the free
world (you think that way when you are seven years old) that we had
got there first. Now I'm almost sorry that it worked out that way.

I guess the soviets would have taken the victory seriously too, and
would almost certainly not have fallen victim to the complacency that
overtook the US program. Perhaps stretching to match US efforts would
have destabilized them sooner than it did in fact - and in the tradition
of Marvel Comics 'What If', this destabilization in the Brezhnev era might
have triggered the third world war. Hmm, maybe it was a giant leap after all.

 > be the site of major commercial activity. As far as we know it has no
 > materials we can't get cheaper right here on Earth or from asteroids
 > and comets, aside from the semi-mythic He3 that *might* be useful in low
 > grade fusion reactors.

I don't know what a "low grade" fusion reactor is, but the major
problem with 3He (aside from the difficulty in making any fusion
reactor work) is that its concentration in lunar regolith is just so
small -- on the order of 5 ppb or so, on average (more in some
fractions, but still very small).  Massive amounts of regolith would
have to be processed.

This thread reminds me of Wingo's claims some time ago about the moon
as a source of titanium for use on earth.  As I recall, Wingo wasn't
content with being assured that titanium (at .5% in the Earth's crust,
average) would not run out, and touted lunar mines, even though the
market price of ilmenite concentrate these days is around $.06/pound.
This prompted me to look up large potential terrestrial sources.

On the moon, titanium occurs in basalts; "high-Ti" basalts (Apollo 11
and 17) have 8-14% titanium dioxide (by weight).  This is nice, but...
terrestrial continental flood basalts are also typically enriched in
titanium.  They very often have 3% TiO2, frequently have 4%, and
sometimes even 5% TiO2 (again, by weight).  These flood basalts are
*enormous* -- millions of cubic kilometers, scattered all over the
world (Siberia, Brazil, the NW United States, Ethiopia, etc.).  If
even 1% of the basalts are 5% TiO2, this is trillions of tons of TiO2
at concentrations only a factor of 2-3 less than in lunar high-Ti
basalts.  It is difficult to see how the disadvantages of the moon
could be overcome by such a small increase the concentration of the
ore (never mind the richer, but less common, terrestrial ores being
mined today).

Could it be Public Missile, Inc in Michigan?

From the description of ad here, it sounds like they're talking about
"High Power Rocketry", an outgrowth of model rocketry.  This hobby
uses non-metallic structural compoments and commerically manufactured
engines ranging in impulse classification from G to P.  The hobby
has been flourishing from early 1980s and is becoming increasing popular.
Technically this is not consider amateur rocketry.

Any rocket with a liftoff weight greater than 3.3 pounds OR using a
total impulse of G or greater, REQUIRES an FAA waiver to launch.
Typically, a group of people get an FAA waiver for specified period
of time (ie week, weekend, etc.) at a designated site and time, and
all of the launches are then covered under this "blanket waiver".
There is also a "High Power Safety Code" which designates more
specific rules such as launch field size, etc.

Finally, in order to purchase any of the larger (Class B) rocket 
motors you need to certified through either the National Association
of Rocketry or Tripoli Rocketry Association. Certification procedures
require a demonstarted handling and "safe" flight at a total impulse
level.

For more information, watch rec.models.rockets newsgroup.

If this question is covered elsewhere, I apologize, but I need information
fast.

My department has been given a large sum of money to install a video system
on our network of IBM RS6000 workstations.  This is not an area in which I
have any expertise, so I wonder if anyone out there can offer advice.  We
would like a system, based either on VHS or 8mm video which will allow one 
write video, frame by frame on tape for play-back in real time.  It's for
visualization of physics problems.  Can anyone tell me what hardware is
available which would work for our system?  Some support software is
obviously needed too, but nothing particularly sophisticated, since the
software we actually use for the visualization is all already written.

Please email with replies, as I don't read this group.  Many thanks for your
help.

/>
/>I always thought GD's  Fighter plants were in Long Island.  
/>
/No, Northrup has a plant on Long Island.

I don't think Northrup ever had a plant on Long Island.  The two main airframe
manufacturers there were (Fairchild)/Republic which closed its doors after the
T-46 cancellation, and Grumman (which is still hanging on last I time I called).
I think Sperry also started there.  If you're ever in the area check out the
Cradle of Aviation Museum at Mitchell field (now mostly parking lots behind the
Nassau Coliseum and the community college).  Good display of vehicles from Long
Island, including a LEM flight article.

Slight semantical difference.  The LDS Church does own a heck of
a lot however.  They are the largest land holder in MIssouri
(where they think Christ will appear at the second coming).

Gong!

Take a moment and look at what you just wrote. First you defined
an "objective" morality and then you qualified this "objective" morality
with subjective justifications. Do you see the error in this?

Sorry, you have just disqualified yourself, but please play again.

The problem is, you can't raise adequate amounts of money that way.
The Viking Fund tried.  They did succeed, in a way, but only because
of the political impact of their fundraising.  The actual amount of
money they raised was fairly inconsequential; it would not have kept
the Viking lander going by itself.

They exist.  Even photosynthetic varieties.  Not economical at this
time, though.

C-3's bird may be flaking out and expecting to die soon.

or C-3  may orbit over  major users areas, and it may be
needed to provide  redundancy on that plane  while b-4  may orbit
over hicksville, and not have muc of a user community.

    > be the site of major commercial activity. As far as we know it has no
    > materials we can't get cheaper right here on Earth or from asteroids
    > and comets, aside from the semi-mythic He3 that *might* be useful in low
    > grade fusion reactors.

   problem with 3He (aside from the difficulty in making any fusion
   reactor work) is that its concentration in lunar regolith is just so
   small -- on the order of 5 ppb or so, on average (more in some

   This thread reminds me of Wingo's claims some time ago about the moon
   as a source of titanium for use on earth.  As I recall, Wingo wasn't
 ...
   even 1% of the basalts are 5% TiO2, this is trillions of tons of TiO2
   at concentrations only a factor of 2-3 less than in lunar high-Ti
   basalts.  It is difficult to see how the disadvantages of the moon
   could be overcome by such a small increase the concentration of the
   ore (never mind the richer, but less common, terrestrial ores being
   mined today).

Why Paul, it's obvious.
Once chlorine chemistry has been banned on Earth,
as is being advocated by some groups, Ti prices will
sharply increase (we are of course not allowed to
assume any developments in Ti processing).
Lunar Ti will then be eminently competitive for
the trendy jewelry market and certain applications
of National Importance 

:-) :-) :-) 

(oops, this is sci.space... wrong rules of debate ;-)

Seriously, I'd say there is a flaw in Gary's analysis
in that he assumes an export oriented economy, maybe
the lunatics will just want some native Ti for local
use... as to why Lunar natives are cost effective, 
analysis has shown they will be critical in providing
a sheltered manufacturing base, technological innovation,
critical materials and manpower in the war between
the Allies and Central Powers in about two hundred years...

;-)

				      ^^^^^
	No: It is old. You said AMORC *IS*, not *was*... :-)
Nothing personal, OK? Good! :-)

	Maybe you didn't know that it's over by now. There is no more
pending legal actions from no where, period. So yes, there was a
situation and it has been resolved by BOTH parties. As long as humans 
handle anything, it is subjected to "breaking" :-)

	BTW, Gary L. Stewart has a P.O. Box in TX calling his org ARC:
Ancient Rosae Crucis. I guess he couldn't take the "MO" from AMORC :-)

I wrote...

and it has since turned out that all the mirror sites I looked at were 
fooled by a restructuring at the original site - zaphod.ncsa.uiuc.edu - 
and hence were in a mess. That and a pointer to 'imconv' should get
me started. Ta muchly.

Cheers
	Markus

Glad to hear this, just a note, Osiris, Mithras and many other
cult gods resurrected as well, so there's a good chance for all of
us to maybe end up in a virtual reality simulator, and live forever,
hurrah!

Sorry, this was a joke, some sort of one anyway. I'm the first
that connected Osiris with a virtual reality personality database.
Time to write a book.

Cheers,
Kent

[why do babies get diseases, etc.]

 Here's the (main) problem. The scenario you outline is reasonably 
consistent, but all the evidence that I am familiar with not only does
not support it, but indicates something far different. The Earth, by
latest estimates, is about 4.6 billion years old, and has had life for
about 3.5 billion of those years. Humans have only been around for (at
most) about 200,000 years. But, the fossil evidence inidcates that life
has been changing and evolving, and, in fact, disease-ridden, long before
there were people. (Yes, there are fossils that show signs of disease...
mostly bone disorders, of course, but there are some.) Heck, not just
fossil evidence, but what we've been able to glean from genetic study shows
that disease has been around for a long, long time. If human sin was what
brought about disease (at least, indirectly, though necessarily) then
how could it exist before humans?

[deletions]

 Uh... I know of many evolutionary biologists, who know more about
biology than you claim to, who will strongly disagree with this. There
is no evidence that the human genetic code (or any other) 'started off'
in perfect condition. It seems to adapt to its envionment, in a
collective sense. I'm really curious as to what you mean by 'the
degeneration of the genetic code'.

 Umm. Nah, we seem to do a pretty good job of adapting to viruses and
bacteria, and they to us. Only a very small percentage of microlife is
harmful to humans... and that small percentage seems to be reasonalby
constant in size, but the ranks keep changing. For example, bubonic
plague used to be a really nasty disease, I'm sure you'll agree. But
it still pops up from time to time, even today... and doesn't do as
much damage. Part of that is because of better sanitation, but even
when people get the disease, the symptoms tend to be less severe than in
the past. This seems to be partly because people who were very susceptible
died off long ago, and because the really nasty variants 'overgrazed',
(forgive the poor terminology, I'm an engineer, not a doctor! :-> ) and
died off for lack of nearby hosts.
 I could be wrong on this, but from what I gather acne is only a few
hundred years old, and used to be nastier, though no killer. It seems to
be getting less nasty w/age...

 Now, wait a minute. I have a question. Humans were created perfect, right?
And, you admit that we have an inbuilt abiliy to fight off disease. It
seems unlikely that Satan, who's making the diseases, would also gift
humans with the means to fight them off. Simpler to make the diseases less
lethal, if he wants survivors. As far as I can see, our immune systems,
imperfect though they may (presently?) be, must have been built into us
by God. I want to be clear on this: are you saying that God was planning
ahead for the time when Satan would be in charge by building an immune
system that was not, at the time of design, necessary? That is, God made
our immune systems ahead of time, knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and
their descendents would need to fight off diseases?

 Here's another puzzle. What, exactly, do you mean by 'perfect' in the
phrase, 'created... perfect and without flaw'? To my mind, a 'perfect'
system would be incapable of degrading over time. A 'perfect' system
that will, without constant intervention, become imperfect is *not* a
perfect system. At least, IMHO.
 Or is it that God did something like writing a masterpiece novel on a
bunch of gum wrappers held together with Elmer's glue? That is, the
original genetic 'instructions' were perfect, but were 'written' in
inferior materials that had to be carefully tended or would fall apart?
If so, why could God not have used better materials?
 Was God *incapable* of creating a system that could maintain itself,
of did It just choose not to?

 My main point, as I said, was that there really isn't any evidence for
the explanation you give. (At least, that I'm aware of.) But, I couldn't
help making a few nitpicks here and there. :->

Sincerely,

[Pitt vs. Penn State controversy deleted]

No.  It wouldn't be sufficient cause to bitch to the system operator if this
was just some guy saying that atheists are going to hell.  The point was 
that recently many messages were posted from that address.  Each of these
messages was posted to a different newsgroup, with the apparent intent of
provoking the readers of that particular group.  This, along with the fact
that these posts were written in all-caps, makes these posts suspect.
Whoever is using this account is using it irresponsibly.  If it is the
intended user, they should consider appropriate action.  If it is someone
else-- which seems a possibility, then this is also reason to report it.
	We get many posts in the flavor of the one that started this thread.
It is only because I have seen posts on other groups by this user that I
am considering action.

Sorry, the San Jose based Rosicrucian order is called A.M.O.R.C, 
I don't remember for the time being what the A.M. stand for
but O.R.C is Ordo Rosae Crucis, in other words latin for
Order of the Rose Cross. Sigh, seems l'm loosing more and more
of my long term memory.

Otherwise their headquarters in San Jose has a pretty decent
metaphysical bookstore, if any of you are interested in such books.
And my son loves to run around in their Egyptian museum.

Cheers,
Kent

Organization: "A World of Information at your Fingertips"
Keywords: 

Craig,

You should still consider the Targa+. I run windows 3.1 on it all the
time at work and it works fine. I think all you need is the right
driver. 

I was reading Popular Science this morning and was surprised by an ad in
the back.  I know that a lot of the ads in the back of PS are fringe
science or questionablely legal, but this one really grabbed my attention.
It was from a company name "Personal Missle, Inc." or something like that.

Anyhow, the ad stated that they'd sell rockets that were up to 20' in length
and engines of sizes "F" to "M".  They also said that some rockets will
reach 50,000 feet.

Now, aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
of these beasts, isn't this illegal?  I can't imagine the FAA allowing
people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes.
Not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down.

And no, I'm not going to even think of buying one.  I'm not that crazy.

-Paul "mine'll do 50,000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite" Dokas

;From the article "What's New" Apr-16-93 in sci.physics.research:
;
;........
;WHAT'S NEW (in my opinion), Friday, 16 April 1993  Washington, DC
;
;1. SPACE BILLBOARDS! IS THIS ONE THE "SPINOFFS" WE WERE PROMISED?
;What about light pollution in observations? (I read somewhere else that
;it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night).
;Is NASA really supporting this junk?
;Are protesting groups being organized in the States?
;Really, really depressed.
;
;             Enzo

I wouldn't worry about it.  There's enough space debris up there that
a mile-long inflatable would probably deflate in some very short
period of time (less than a year) while cleaning up LEO somewhat.
Sort of a giant fly-paper in orbit.

Hmm, that could actually be useful.

As for advertising -- sure, why not?  A NASA friend and I spent one
drunken night figuring out just exactly how much gold mylar we'd need
to put the golden arches of a certain American fast food organization
on the face of the Moon.  Fortunately, we sobered up in the morning.

No wonder in the light of that you are a probably a theist who tries
to pass as an agnostic. I still remember your post about your daughter
singing Chrismas Carols and your feelings of it well.

Ethnocentric USian that I am, I've assumed that we and the
xUSSR were the only countries with significant capabilities to track
non-cooperative objects in low Earth orbit. Grazing in a couple of 
databases recently,  I found that Japan has some optical capabilities
along this line, and also uses a radar designed for other purposes
for orbital debris surveys (it isn't clear whether the radar can 
determine orbital elements for the objects it detects). Abstracts of 
the articles are appended. 

    This leads to the more general question: do yet other people than 
the US, Russia, and Japan do space surveillance, and if so, how and 
why? 

Allen Thomson              SAIC                        McLean, VA, USA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                         ABSTRACTS

Optical tracking of the experimental geodetic satellite (EGS)
TAKABE, MASAO; ITABE, TOSHIKAZU; ARUGA, TADASHI
Radio Research Laboratory, Review (ISSN 0033-801X), vol. 34,
March 1988, p. 23-34. In Japanese, with abstract in English.
     This paper reports the optical tracking results of EGS
(experimental geodetic satellite) which was launched on August 13,
1986, by NASDA. The EGS optical tracking experiment process and an
outline of the Radio Research Laboratory (RRL) optical ground       <----
station are discussed. A star tracking technique for optical
equipment calibration and satellite tracking technique for orbit
prediction improvement are also described. The accuracy of EGS
tracking data obtained by RRL at the request of NASDA is also
discussed. In addition, it is briefly demonstrated that the
position of the Japanese amateur satellite (JAS-1) which was
launched with the EGS, was accurately determined by means of a      <----
satellite tracking video. It is clear from this experiment that     <----
optical observation data (i.e., satellite direction data) are very  <----
useful for satellite orbit determination during initial launch      <----
stages. Furthermore, the results confirm the effectivenes of these  <----
two satellite optical tracking techniques.                          <----

MU radar measurements of orbital debris
SATO, TORU; KAYAMA, HIDETOSHI; FURUSAWA, AKIRA; KIMURA, IWANE
(Kyoto University, Japan)
AIAA, NASA, and DOD, Orbital Debris Conference: Technical Issues and 
Future Directions, Baltimore, MD, Apr. 16-19, 1990. 10 p. 
RPN: AIAA PAPER 90-1343
     Distributions of orbital debris versus height and scattering cross 
section are determined from a series of observations made with a high-
power VHF Doppler radar (MU radar) of Japan. An automated data 
processing algorithm has been developed to discriminate echoes of 
orbiting objects from those of undesired signals such as meteor trail 
echoes or lightning atmospherics. Although the results are preliminary, 
they showed good agreement with those from NORAD tracking radar      <----
observations using a much higher frequency. It is found that the     <----
collision frequency of a Space Station of 1 km x 1 km size at an 
altitude of 500 km with orbiting debris is expected to be as high as 
once per two years. 

Monitoring of the MU radar antenna pattern by Satellite Ohzora (EXOS-C)
SATO, T.; INOOKA, Y.; FUKAO, S. (Kyoto Univ., Japan); KATO, S.
Kyoto Univ., Uji (Japan). Radio Atmospheric Science Center.
In International Council of Scientific Unions, Middle Atmosphere Program.
Handbook for MAP, Vol. 20 5 p
Publication Date: Jun. 1986
      As the first attempt among MST (mesosphere stratosphere 
troposphere) type radars, the MU (middle and upper atmosphere) radar 
features an active phased array system. Unlike the conventional large 
VHF radars, in which output power of a large vacuum tube is distributed 
to individual antenna elements, each of 475 solid state power amplifier 
feeds each antenna element. This system configuration enables very fast 
beam steering as well as various flexible operations by dividing the 
antenna into independent subarrays, because phase shift and signal 
division/combination are performed at a low signal level using 
electronic devices under control of a computer network. The antenna 
beam can be switched within 10 microsec to any direction within the 
zenith angle of 30 deg. Since a precise phase alignment of each element 
is crucial to realize the excellent performance of this system, careful 
calibration of the output phase of each power amplifier and antenna 
element was carried out. Among various aircraft which may be used for 
this purpose artificial satellites have an advantage of being able to 
make a long term monitoring with the same system. An antenna pattern 
monitoring system for the MU radar was developed using the scientific 
satellite OHZORA (EXOS-C). A receiver named MUM (MU radar antenna 
Monitor) on board the satellite measures a CW signal of 100 to 400 
watts transmitted from the MU radar. The principle of the measurement 
and results are discussed.

-*----

The two commandments *are* rules; they are merely rules that are
so vague that they are practically devoid of meaning.  Michael
Siemon acknowledges this every time he writes that the resolution
of an argument over them turns on secular and cultural
assumptions that are independent of these rules.
 
The commandment to love your neighbor as yourself can be viewed,
in part, as reminding man that he is not God and cannot act as if
he has "ultimate responsibility." Indeed, many traditions present
an interpretation where believers are supposed to interpret
loving one's neighbor as following various other rules, and
relying on their god to make things come out right, precisely
because it would be wrong for man to assume such "ultimate
responsibility." Once again, we are confronted with good sounding
goo that means whatever the reader wants it to mean. 

And who is to say that this interpretation is "twisted"?  There
are many passages in the Bible that in their most straightforward
reading show the Christian god behaving in just this way.
Michael cannot refer to "base" claims or base commandments to
show that such readings are "twisted," because this divergence in
understanding occurs even in trying to interpret the "base"
claims and commandments.  In addressing conservative Christians,
Michael will necessarily draw upon secular and cultural notions
that these conservative Christians will reject.  

But these base commandments are too vague to serve as  "a
principle for the CRITIQUE of ethical systems." The meaning of
these base commandments for any believer derives from the secular
and cultural notions that the believer brings to them, from how
the believer mixes their demands with straightforward readings of
other Biblical passages, from a particular sectarian tradition,
or from some combination of these things.  These commandments
lack sufficient substance in themself to serve as a basis for
criticizing ethical systems.  What meaning they have comes from
the ethical system the believer brings to these commandments. 

Jesus explicitly states that this summarizes Jewish law, which
would seem to bring in all of it if we properly understand what
it means to love God and love our neighbors.  There are *many*
parables and teachings the gospels attribute to Jesus that are
straightforwardly read as ethical commandments.  The Pauline
epistles are similarly full.  If it is not clear that these all
come together in a sensible understanding of ethical behavior,
the problem is *not* a lack of raw material. 

-*----

No, Michael, the conservative Christians also take the gospel 
seriously.  What differentiates you is the way you interpret the
gospel.

In a sense, the wide variety of interpretations does tell us
something about Christianity.  It tells us that the New Testament
authors left a sufficiently vague hodge-podge that it can serve
as the source text for many, vastly different beliefs about the
nature of the Christian god and about what men should and
shouldn't do. 

The irony here is that there is *nothing* in Christianity per
se that Michael can use to support the cause of lesbians and
gays.  *Every* Christian principle he turns to this cause is
effective only through the extra-Christian principles through
which Michael interprets his religion, and the homophobes apply
the *same* Christian principles, with equal justification, to
their cause.  In short, it is the extra-Christian principles that
make Michael's Christianity beneficial, and I suspect they would
be as beneficial, perhaps moreso, without being filtered by
Christian interpretation.  

Michael paints a picture of "standard American atheism" as the
rejection of the evil in many conservative Christian
interpretations of the Bible.  But I think it is even more
damaging to Christianity to note that the New Testament presents
such a vague hodge-podge of notions about the nature of God and
the nature of the good (except, of course, when it is ordered by
an interpretation that relies on extraneous principles).  Here, I
think we should apply a Christian parable, where a cold drink can
have its value and a hot drink can have its value, but the
lukewarm we should spit out. 

	Hey, it might to interesting to read some of these posts...
Especially from ones who still regularly posts on alt.atheism!

	Hee hee hee.

	*I* ain't going to say....

--- 

Hey!  My dad has an old hangar and Judy has some old rockets in her attic,
let's put on a Lunar program! . . .  Sounds good, but . . .
Let's play a game - What would be a reasonable reward?  What companies would
have a reasonable shot at pulling off such a feat?  Just where in the
budget would the reward come from?  Should there be a time limit?  Would a
straight cash money award be enough or should we throw in say . . . 
exclusive mining rights for the first fifty years? You get the idea.

I'd like to play but I don't have a clue to the answers.

Ok, lets say youve got a grid of hexagons

that go in a        10
                     9
                    10
                     9
                    etc..

for a total of 15 rows down

that means there are 10 hexagons in the 1st line,
9 lined up underneath in the second line
10 lined up underneath in the third line
9 lined up under neath in the fourht...

the problem is  given the center of any arbritrary hexagon, and a line with
and arbritrary slope, Which hexagons does that line cross through 
(The line doesn't necessarily have to cross through the center of other hexagon,it can even be a tangent and count).  Any helpers, my friend was baffeled
when trying to figure this.
:w

Archive-name: space/references
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:21 $

REFERENCES ON SPECIFIC AREAS

    PUBLISHERS OF SPACE/ASTRONOMY MATERIAL

    Astronomical Society of the Pacific
    1290 24th Avenue
    San Francisco, CA 94122

	More expensive but better organized slide sets.

    Cambridge University Press
    32 East 57th Street
    New York, NY 10022

    Crawford-Peters Aeronautica
    P.O. Box 152528
    San Diego, CA 92115
    (619) 287-3933

	An excellent source of all kinds of space publications. They publish
	a number of catalogs, including:
	    Aviation and Space, 1945-1962
	    Aviation and Space, 1962-1990
	    Space and Related Titles

    European Southern Observatory
    Information and Photographic Service
    Dr R.M. West
    Karl Scharzschild Strasse 2
    D-8046 Garching bei Munchen
    FRG

	Slide sets, posters, photographs, conference proceedings.

    Finley Holiday Film Corporation
    12607 East Philadelphia Street
    Whittier, California 90601
    (213)945-3325
    (800)FILMS-07

	Wide selection of Apollo, Shuttle, Viking, and Voyager slides at ~50
	cents/slide. Call for a catalog.

    Hansen Planetarium (Utah)

	Said to hold sales on old slide sets. Look in Sky & Telescope
	for contact info.

    Lunar and Planetary Institute
    3303 NASA Road One
    Houston, TX 77058-4399

	Technical, geology-oriented slide sets, with supporting
	booklets.

    John Wiley & Sons
    605 Third Avenue
    New York, NY 10158-0012

    Sky Publishing Corporation
    PO Box 9111
    Belmont, MA  02178-9111

	Offers "Sky Catalogue 2000.0" on PC floppy with information
	(including parallax) for 45000 stars.

    Roger Wheate
    Geography Dept.
    University of Calgary, Alberta
    Canada T2N 1N4
    (403)-220-4892
    (403)-282-7298 (FAX)
    wheate@uncamult.bitnet

	Offers a 40-slide set called "Mapping the Planets" illustrating
	recent work in planetary cartography, comes with a booklet and
	information on getting your own copies of the maps. $50 Canadian,
	shipping included.

    Superintendent of Documents
    US Government Printing Office
    Washington, DC 20402

    Univelt, Inc.
    P. O. Box 28130
    San Diego, Ca. 92128

	Publishers for the American Astronomical Society.

    US Naval Observatory
	202-653-1079 (USNO Bulletin Board via modem)
	202-653-1507 General

    Willmann-Bell
    P.O. Box 35025
    Richmond, Virginia 23235 USA
    (804)-320-7016 9-5 EST M-F

    CAREERS IN THE SPACE INDUSTRY

    In 1990 the Princeton Planetary Society published the first edition of
    "Space Jobs: The Guide to Careers in Space-Related Fields." The
    publication was enormously successful: we distributed 2000 copies to
    space enthusiasts across the country and even sent a few to people in
    Great Britain, Australia, and Ecuador. Due to the tremendous response to
    the first edition, PPS has published an expanded, up-to-date second
    edition of the guide.

    The 40-page publication boasts 69 listings for summer and full-time job
    opportunities as well as graduate school programs. The second edition of
    "Space Jobs" features strategies for entering the space field and
    describes positions at consulting and engineering firms, NASA, and
    non-profit organizations. The expanded special section on graduate
    schools highlights a myriad of programs ranging from space manufacturing
    to space policy. Additional sections include tips on becoming an
    astronaut and listings of NASA Space Grant Fellowships and Consortia, as
    well as NASA Centers for the Commercial Development of Space.

    To order send check or money order made payable to Princeton Planetary
    Society for $4 per copy, plus $1 per copy for shipping and handling
    (non-US customers send an International Money Order payable in US
    dollars) to:

    Princeton Planetary Society
    315 West College
    Princeton University
    Princeton, NJ  08544

    DC-X SINGLE-STAGE TO ORBIT (SSTO) PROGRAM

    SDI's SSRT (Single Stage Rocket Technology) project has funded a
    suborbital technology demonstrator called DC-X that should fly in
    mid-1993. Further development towards an operational single-stage to
    orbit vehicle (called Delta Clipper) is uncertain at present.

    An collection of pictures and files relating to DC-X is available by
    anonymous FTP or email server in the directory

	bongo.cc.utexas.edu:pub/delta-clipper

    Chris W. Johnson (chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu) maintains the archive.

    HOW TO NAME A STAR AFTER A PERSON

    Official names are decided by committees of the International
    Astronomical Union, and are not for sale. There are purely commercial
    organizations which will, for a fee, send you pretty certificates and
    star maps describing where to find "your" star. These organizations have
    absolutely no standing in the astronomical community and the names they
    assign are not used by anyone else. It's also likely that you won't be
    able to see "your" star without binoculars or a telescope. See the back
    pages of Astronomy or other amateur astronomy publications for contact
    info; one such organization may be found at:

	International Star Registry
	34523 Wilson Road
	Ingleside, IL 60041

    This is not an endorsement of ISR.

    LLNL "GREAT EXPLORATION"

    The LLNL "Great Exploration", a plan for an on-the-cheap space station,
    Lunar base, and Mars mission using inflatable space structures, excited
    a lot of interest on the net and still comes up from time to time. Some
    references cited during net discussion were:

	Avation Week Jan 22, 1990 for an article on the overall Great
	Exploration

	NASA Assessment of the LLNL Space Exploration Proposal and LLNL
	Responses by Dr. Lowell Wood LLNL Doc. No. SS 90-9. Their address
	is: PO Box 808 Livermore, CA 94550 (the NASA authors are unknown).

	Briefing slides of a presentation to the NRC last December may be
	available. Write LLNL and ask.

	Conceptual Design Study for Modular Inflatable Space Structures, a
	final report for purchase order B098747 by ILC Dover INC. I don't
	know how to get this except from LLNL or ILC Dover. I don't have an
	address for ILC.

    LUNAR PROSPECTOR

    Lunar Exploration Inc. (LEI) is a non-profit corporation working on a
    privately funded lunar polar orbiter. Lunar Prospector is designed to
    perform a geochemical survey and search for frozen volatiles at the
    poles. A set of reference files describing the project is available in

	ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/LEI/*

    LUNAR SCIENCE AND ACTIVITIES

    Grant H Heiken, David T Vaniman, and Bevan M French (editors), "Lunar
    Sourcebook, A User's Guide to the Moon", Cambridge University Press
    1991, ISBN 0-521-33444-6; hardcover; expensive. A one-volume
    encyclopedia of essentially everything known about the Moon, reviewing
    current knowledge in considerable depth, with copious references. Heavy
    emphasis on geology, but a lot more besides, including considerable
    discussion of past lunar missions and practical issues relevant to
    future mission design. *The* reference book for the Moon; all others are
    obsolete.

    Wendell Mendell (ed), "Lunar Bases and Space Activities of the 21st
    Century", $15. "Every serious student of lunar bases *must* have this
    book" - Bill Higgins. Available from:

	Lunar and Planetary Institute
	3303 NASA Road One
	Houston, TX 77058-4399
	If you want to order books, call (713)486-2172.

    Thomas A. Mutch, "Geology of the Moon: A Stratigraphic View", Princeton
    University Press, 1970. Information about the Lunar Orbiter missions,
    including maps of the coverage of the lunar nearside and farside by
    various Orbiters.

    ORBITING EARTH SATELLITE HISTORIES

    A list of Earth orbiting satellites (that are still in orbit) is
    available by anonymous FTP in:

	ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/Satellites

    SPACECRAFT MODELS

    "Space in Miniature #2: Gemini" by
	Michael J. Mackowski
	1621 Waterwood Lane, St. Louis, MO 63146
	$7.50

    Only 34pp but enough pictures & diagrams to interest more than just the
    modelling community, I feel.

    Marco's Miniatures of Dracut, Mass. have produced a 1/144 Skylab in an
    edition of 500 & a 1/48 Lunar Rover (same scale as Monogram and Revell
    Lunar Modules) in a similar edition. Prices are $45 for Skylab, $24 for
    LRV. Check with them for postage etc. I have no connection with them,
    but have found their service to be good and their stock of rare/old kits
    *is* impressive. Prices range from reasonable ($35 for Monogram 1/32
    scale Apollo CSM with cutaway details) to spectacular ($145 for Airfix
    Vostok).

	 Four Star Collectibles
	 P.O. Box 658
	 Dracut Mass 01826, USA.
	 (508)-957-0695.

    Voyager, HST, Viking, Lunar Rover etc. kits from:

	Lunar Models
	5120 Grisham
	Rowlett, Texas 75088
	(214)-475-4230

    As reviewed by Bob Kaplow:

	Peter Alway's book "Scale Model Rocketry" is now available. Mine
	arrived in the mail earlier this week. To get your own copy, send
	$19.95 + $2.50 s/h ($22.45 total) to:

			Peter Alway
			2830 Pittsfield
			Ann Arbor, MI 48104

	The book includes information on collecting scale data, construction
	of scale models, and several handy tables. Appendicies include plans
	for 3 sport scale models, a 1:9.22 D Region Tomahawk (BT50), a 1/40
	V-2 (BT60), and a 1/9.16 Aerobee 150A (BT55/60).

	I've only begun to study the book, but it certainly will be a
	valuable data source for many modellers. Most vehicles include
	several paragraphs of text describing the missions flown by the
	rocket, various specs including "NAR" engine classification, along
	with a dimensioned drawing, color layouts & paint pattern, and a
	black & white photograph.

	The vehicles included are the Aerobee 150A, Aerobee 300, Aerobee Hi,
	Arcas, Asp, Astrobee 1500, Astrobee D, Atlas Centaur, Atlas-Agena,
	Atlas-Score, Baby WAC, D-Region Tomahawk, Deacon Rockoon, Delta B,
	Delta E, Gemini-Titan II, Iris, Javelin, Juno 1, Juno 2, Little Joe
	1, Little Joe 2, Mercury-Atlas, Mercury-Redstone, Nike-Apache,
	Nike-Asp, Nike-Cajun, Nike-Deacon, Nike-Tomahawk, RAM B, Saturn 1
	Block 1, Saturn 1 Block 2, Saturn 1B, Saturn 5, Scout, Standard
	Aerobee, Terrapin, Thor-Able, Titan III C, Titan III E, Trailblazer
	1, V-2, Vanguard, Viking Model 1, Viking Model 2, and Wac Corporal.

    ROCKET PROPULSION

	George P. Sutton, "Rocket Propulsion Elements", 5th edn,
	Wiley-Interscience 1986, ISBN 0-471-80027-9. Pricey textbook. The
	best (nearly the only) modern introduction to the technical side of
	rocketry. A good place to start if you want to know the details. Not
	for the math-shy. Straight chemical rockets, essentially nothing on
	more advanced propulsion (although earlier editions reportedly had
	some coverage).

	Dieter K. Huzel and David H. Huang, "Design of Liquid Propellant
	Rocket Engines", NASA SP-125.
	NTIS N71-29405		PC A20/MF A01	1971  461p
	Out of print; reproductions may be obtained through the NTIS
	(expensive). The complete and authoritative guide to designing
	liquid-fuel engines. Reference #1 in most chapters of Sutton. Heavy
	emphasis on practical issues, what works and what doesn't, what the
	typical values of the fudge factors are. Stiff reading, massive
	detail; written for rocket engineers by rocket engineers.

    SPACECRAFT DESIGN

	Brij N. Agrawal, "Design of Geosynchronous Spacecraft",
	Prentice-Hall, ISBN 0-13-200114-4.

	James R. Wertz ed, "Spacecraft Attitude Determination and
	Control", Kluwer, ISBN 90-277-1204-2.

	P.R.K. Chetty, "Satellite Technology and its Applications",
	McGraw-Hill, ISBN 0-8306-9688-1.

	James R. Wertz and Wiley J. Larson (editors), "Space Mission
	Analysis and Design", Kluwer Academic Publishers
	(Dordrecht/Boston/London) 1991, ISBN 0-7923-0971-5 (paperback), or
	0-7923-0970-7 (hardback).

	    This looks at system-level design of a spacecraft, rather than
	    detailed design. 23 chapters, 4 appendices, about 430 pages. It
	    leads the reader through the mission design and system-level
	    design of a fictitious earth-observation satellite, to
	    illustrate the principles that it tries to convey. Warning:
	    although the book is chock-full of many useful reference tables,
	    some of the numbers in at least one of those tables (launch
	    costs for various launchers) appear to be quite wrong. Can be
	    ordered by telephone, using a credit card; Kluwer's phone number
	    is (617)-871-6600. Cost $34.50.

    ESOTERIC PROPULSION SCHEMES (SOLAR SAILS, LASERS, FUSION...)

    This needs more and more up-to-date references, but it's a start.

    ANTIMATTER:

	"Antiproton Annihilation Propulsion", Robert Forward
	    AFRPL TR-85-034 from the Air Force Rocket Propulsion Laboratory
	    (AFRPL/XRX, Stop 24, Edwards Air Force Base, CA 93523-5000).
	    NTIS AD-A160 734/0	   PC A10/MF A01
	    PC => Paper copy, A10 => $US57.90 -- or maybe Price Code?
	    MF => MicroFiche, A01 => $US13.90

	    Technical study on making, holding, and using antimatter for
	    near-term (30-50 years) propulsion systems. Excellent
	    bibliography. Forward is the best-known proponent
	    of antimatter.

	    This also may be available as UDR-TR-85-55 from the contractor,
	    the University of Dayton Research Institute, and DTIC AD-A160
	    from the Defense Technical Information Center, Defense Logistics
	    Agency, Cameron Station, Alexandria, VA 22304-6145. And it's
	    also available from the NTIS, with yet another number.

	"Advanced Space Propulsion Study, Antiproton and Beamed Power
	    Propulsion", Robert Forward

	    AFAL TR-87-070 from the Air Force Astronautics Laboratory, DTIC
	    #AD-A189 218.
	    NTIS AD-A189 218/1	  PC A10/MF A01

	    Summarizes the previous paper, goes into detail on beamed power
	    systems including " 1) pellet, microwave, and laser beamed power
	    systems for intersteller transport; 2) a design for a
	    near-relativistic laser-pushed lightsail using near-term laser
	    technology; 3) a survey of laser thermal propulsion, tether
	    transportation systems, antiproton annihilation propulsion,
	    exotic applications of solar sails, and laser-pushed
	    interstellar lightsails; 4) the status of antiproton
	    annihilation propulsion as of 1986; and 5) the prospects for
	    obtaining antimatter ions heavier than antiprotons." Again,
	    there is an extensive bibliography.

	    "Application of Antimatter - Electric Power to Interstellar
	    Propulsion", G. D. Nordley, JBIS Interstellar Studies issue of
	    6/90.

    BUSSARD RAMJETS AND RELATED METHODS:

	G. L. Matloff and A. J. Fennelly, "Interstellar Applications and
	Limitations of Several Electrostatic/Electromagnetic Ion Collection
	Techniques", JBIS 30 (1977):213-222

	N. H. Langston, "The Erosion of Interstellar Drag Screens", JBIS 26
	(1973): 481-484

	C. Powell, "Flight Dynamics of the Ram-Augmented Interstellar
	Rocket", JBIS 28 (1975):553-562

	A. R. Martin, "The Effects of Drag on Relativistic Spacefight", JBIS
	25 (1972):643-652

    FUSION:

	"A Laser Fusion Rocket for Interplanetary Propulsion", Roderick Hyde,
	LLNL report UCRL-88857. (Contact the Technical Information Dept. at
	Livermore)

	    Fusion Pellet design: Fuel selection. Energy loss mechanisms.
	    Pellet compression metrics. Thrust Chamber: Magnetic nozzle.
	    Shielding. Tritium breeding. Thermal modeling. Fusion Driver
	    (lasers, particle beams, etc): Heat rejection. Vehicle Summary:
	    Mass estimates. Vehicle Performance: Interstellar travel
	    required exhaust velocities at the limit of fusion's capability.
	    Interplanetary missions are limited by power/weight ratio.
	    Trajectory modeling. Typical mission profiles. References,
	    including the 1978 report in JBIS, "Project Daedalus", and
	    several on ICF and driver technology.

	"Fusion as Electric Propulsion", Robert W. Bussard, Journal of
	Propulsion and Power, Vol. 6, No. 5, Sept.-Oct. 1990

	    Fusion rocket engines are analyzed as electric propulsion
	    systems, with propulsion thrust-power-input-power ratio (the
	    thrust-power "gain" G(t)) much greater than unity. Gain values
	    of conventional (solar, fission) electric propulsion systems are
	    always quite small (e.g., G(t)<0.8). With these, "high-thrust"
	    interplanetary flight is not possible, because system
	    acceleration (a(t)) capabilities are always less than the local
	    gravitational acceleration. In contrast, gain values 50-100
	    times higher are found for some fusion concepts, which offer
	    "high-thrust" flight capability. One performance example shows a
	    53.3 day (34.4 powered; 18.9 coast), one-way transit time with
	    19% payload for a single-stage Earth/Mars vehicle. Another shows
	    the potential for high acceleration (a(t)=0.55g(o)) flight in
	    Earth/moon space.

	"The QED Engine System: Direct Electric Fusion-Powered Systems for
	Aerospace Flight Propulsion" by Robert W. Bussard, EMC2-1190-03,
	available from Energy/Matter Conversion Corp., 9100 A. Center
	Street, Manassas, VA 22110.

	    [This is an introduction to the application of Bussard's version
	    of the Farnsworth/Hirsch electrostatic confinement fusion
	    technology to propulsion. 1500<Isp<5000 sec. Farnsworth/Hirsch
	    demonstrated a 10**10 neutron flux with their device back in
	    1969 but it was dropped when panic ensued over the surprising
	    stability of the Soviet Tokamak. Hirsch, responsible for the
	    panic, has recently recanted and is back working on QED. -- Jim
	    Bowery]

	"PLASMAKtm Star Power for Energy Intensive Space Applications", by
	Paul M. Koloc, Eight ANS Topical Meeting on Technology of Fusion
	Energy, special issue FUSION TECHNOLOGY, March 1989.

	    Aneutronic energy (fusion with little or negligible neutron
	    flux) requires plasma pressures and stable confinement times
	    larger than can be delivered by current approaches. If plasma
	    pressures appropriate to burn times on the order of milliseconds
	    could be achieved in aneutronic fuels, then high power densities
	    and very compact, realtively clean burning engines for space and
	    other special applications would be at hand. The PLASMAKtm
	    innovation will make this possible; its unique pressure
	    efficient structure, exceptional stability, fluid-mechanically
	    compressible Mantle and direct inductive MHD electric power
	    conversion advantages are described. Peak burn densities of tens
	    of megawats per cc give it compactness even in the
	    multi-gigawatt electric output size. Engineering advantages
	    indicate a rapid development schedule at very modest cost. [I
	    strongly recommend that people take this guy seriously. Bob
	    Hirsch, the primary proponent of the Tokamak, has recently
	    declared Koloc's PLASMAKtm precursor, the spheromak, to be one
	    of 3 promising fusion technologies that should be pursued rather
	    than Tokamak. Aside from the preceeding appeal to authority, the
	    PLASMAKtm looks like it finally models ball-lightning with solid
	    MHD physics. -- Jim Bowery]

    ION DRIVES:

	Retrieve files pub/SPACE/SPACELINK/6.5.2.* from the Ames SPACE
	archive; these deal with many aspects of ion drives and describe the
	SERT I and II missions, which flight-tested cesium ion thrusters in
	the 1960s and 70s. There are numerous references.

    MASS DRIVERS (COILGUNS, RAILGUNS):

	IEEE Transactions on Magnetics (for example, v. 27 no. 1, January
	1991 issue). Every so often they publish the proceedings of the
	Symposium on Electromagnetic Launcher Technology, including hundreds
	of papers on the subject. It's a good look at the state of the art,
	though perhaps not a good tutorial for beginners. Anybody know some
	good review papers?

    NUCLEAR ROCKETS (FISSION):

	"Technical Notes on Nuclear Rockets", by Bruce W. Knight and Donald
	Kingsbury, unpublished. May be available from: Donald Kingsbury,
	Math Dept., McGill University, PO Box 6070, Station A, Montreal,
	Quebec M3C 3G1 Canada.

    SOLAR SAILS:

	Starsailing. Solar Sails and Interstellar Travel. Louis Friedman,
	Wiley, New York, 1988, 146 pp., paper $9.95. (Not very technical,
	but an adequate overview.)

	"Roundtrip Interstellar Travel Using Laser-Pushed Lightsails
	(Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets, vol. 21, pp. 187-95, Jan.-Feb.
	1984)

    TETHERS:

	_Tethers and Asteroids for Artificial Gravity Assist in the Solar
	System,_ by P.A. Penzo and H.L. Mayer., _Journal of Spacecraft
	and Rockets_ for Jan-Feb 1986.

	    Details how a spacecraft with a kevlar tether of the same mass
	    can change its velocity by up to slightly less than 1 km/sec. if
	    it is travelling under that velocity wrt a suitable asteroid.

    GENERAL:

	"Alternate Propulsion Energy Sources", Robert Forward
	    AFPRL TR-83-067.
	    NTIS AD-B088 771/1	  PC A07/MF A01   Dec 83 138p

	    Keywords: Propulsion energy, metastable helium, free-radical
	    hydrogen, solar pumped (sic) plasmas, antiproton annihiliation,
	    ionospheric lasers, solar sails, perforated sails, microwave
	    sails, quantum fluctuations, antimatter rockets... It's a wide,
	    if not deep, look at exotic energy sources which might be useful
	    for space propulsion. It also considers various kinds of laser
	    propulsion, metallic hydrogen, tethers, and unconventional
	    nuclear propulsion. The bibliographic information, pointing to
	    the research on all this stuff, belongs on every daydreamer's
	    shelf.

	Future Magic. Dr. Robert L. Forward, Avon, 1988. ISBN 0-380-89814-4.

	    Nontechnical discussion of tethers, antimatter, gravity control,
	    and even futher-out topics.

    SPY SATELLITES

    *Deep Black*, by William Burrows;
	"best modern general book for spysats."

    1) A Base For Debate: The US Satellite Station at Nurrungar, Des Ball,
    Allen and Unwin Australia, 1987 ISBN 0 04 355027 4 [ covers DSP early
    warning satellites]

    2) Pine Gap: Australia and the US Geostationary Signals intelligence
    satellite program, Des Ball, Allen and Unwin Australia, 1988 ISBN 0 04
    363002 5. [covers RHYOLITE/AQUACADE, CHALET/VORTEX, and MAGNUM signals
    intelligence satellites]

    3) Guardians: Strategic Reconnaissance Satellites, Curtis Peebles, 1987,
    Ian Allan, ISBN 0 7110 17654 [ good on MOL, military Salyut and Soviet
    satellites, less so on others. Tends to believe what he's told so flaws
    in discussion of DSP, RHYOLITE et al..]

    4) America's Secret Eyes In Space: The Keyhole Spy Satellite Program,
    Jeffrey Richelson, 1990, Harper and Row, ISBN 0 88730 285 8 [ in a class
    of its own, *the* historical reference on the KEYHOLE satellites]

    5) Secret Sentries in Space, Philip J Klass, 1971.
	"long out of print but well worth a look"

    SPACE SHUTTLE COMPUTER SYSTEMS

    %J Communications of the ACM
    %V 27
    %N 9
    %D September 1984
    %K Special issue on space [shuttle] computers

    %A Myron Kayton
    %T Avionics for Manned Spacecraft
    %J IEEE Transactions on Aerospace and Electronic Systems
    %V 25
    %N 6
    %D November 1989
    %P 786-827

    Other various AIAA and IEEE publications.

    Computers in Spaceflight: The NASA Experience
    James E.  Tomayko
    1988?

    SETI COMPUTATION (SIGNAL PROCESSING)

    %A D. K. Cullers
    %A Ivan R. Linscott
    %A Bernard M. Oliver
    %T Signal Processing in SETI
    %V 28
    %N 11
    %D November 1984
    %P 1151-1163
    %K CR Categories and Subject Descriptors: D.4.1 [Operating Systems]:
    Process Management - concurrency; I.5.4 [Pattern Recognition]:
    Applications - signal processing; J.2 [Phsyical Sciences and Engineering]:
    astronomy
    General Terms: Design
    Additional Key Words and Phrases: digital Fourier transforms,
    finite impulse-response filters, interstellar communications,
    Search for Extra-terrestrial Intelligence, signal detection,
    spectrum analysis

    AMATEUR SATELLIES & WEATHER SATELLITES

    A fairly long writeup on receiving and interpreting weather satellite
    photos is available from the Ames SPACE archive in
    pub/SPACE/FAQ/WeatherPhotos.

    The American Radio Relay League publication service offers the following
    references (also see the section on AMSAT in the space groups segment of
    the FAQ):

	ARRL Satellite Experimenters Handbook,		#3185, $20
	ARRL Weather Satellite Handbook,		#3193, $20
	IBM-PC software for Weather Satellite Handbook, #3290, $10

	AMSAT NA 5th Space Symposium,			#0739, $12
	AMSAT NA 6th Space Symposium,			#2219, $12

	Shipping is extra.

    The American Radio Relay League
    Publications Department
    225 Main Street
    Newington, CT 06111
    (203)-666-1541

    TIDES

    Srinivas Bettadpur contributed a writeup on tides, available from the
    Ames SPACE archive in pub/SPACE/FAQ/Tides. It covers the following
    areas:

	- 2-D Example of Tidal Deformation
	- Treatment of Tidal Fields in Practice
	- Long term evolution of the Earth-Moon system under tides

    The writeup refers to the following texts:

	"Geophysical Geodesy" by K. Lambeck
	"Tides of the planet Earth" by P. Melchior

[ a nearly perfect parody  -- needed more random CAPS]

Thanks for the chuckle.  (I loved the bit about relevance to people starving
in Somalia!)

To those who've taken this seriously, READ THE NAME! (aloud)

	I got the univesa driver available over the net. I thought that finally
my 1-meg oak board would be able to show 680x1024 256 colors. Unfortunately a
program still says that I can't do this. Is it the fault of the program (fractint)
or is there something wrong with my card.
	univesa- a free driver available over the net that makes many boards
vesa compatible. 

I haven't been following this thread, so appologies if this has already been
mentioned, but how about

	comp.graphics.3d

You are correct. See today's (4/21) Washington Post. The gas the
FBI used is most certainly fatal in high concentrations. Of course,
non-toxic tear gas is an oxymoron; the whole point of tear gas is
that it is toxic, and its toxic effects cause people to seek
fresh air.

I find these to be intriguing remarks.   Could you give us a bit
more explanation here?   For example, which religion is anti-semitic,
and which aesthetic?

Forwarded from John Spencer (spencer@lowell.edu):

There will be two eclipses of Iapetus by Saturn and its
rings, in May and July.  Please spread the word!  Here's some
information about the events, and then a couple of messages from Jay
Goguen of JPL appealing for thermal observations of the eclipse to
learn more about the thermal properties of Iapetus.  He might also have
some money available...

John Spencer, 1993/04/21

Iapetus will be eclipsed by the shadows of Saturn's rings and Saturn
itself on 1993/05/01-02 (18:27-13:43 UT) and again on 1993/07/20-21,
(21:16-09:38 UT).  Timing is as follows;

     1993 May 1-2

        A-ring ingress  18:27
               egress   19:30
        B-ring ingress  19:51
               egress   21:42
        C-ring egress   23:00
        Saturn ingress  23:59
               egress   10:02
        B-ring ingress  10:28
               egress   12:19
        A-ring ingress  12:40
               egress   13:43

     1993 July 20-21

        Saturn ingress  21:16
               egress   05:08
        A-ring ingress  05:13  (grazing)
               egress   09:38

Times could be 30 minutes later according to an alternate ephemeris,
and photometric observations are important for refining Iapetus'
orbit.  Because the Sun's size projected on the rings as seen from
Iapetus is 3100 km it's unlikely that we will learn anything new about
the rings themselves from the observations.  See Soma (1992), Astronomy
and Astrophysics 265, L21-L24 for more details.  Thanks to Andy Odell
of Northern Arizona University for bringing the events to my
attention.

THERMAL OBSERVATIONS?

  To me, the interesting thing to do would be thermal IR of the 20 July
  disappearance into the shadow of the planet to measure thermal inertia,
  etc.  Unfortunately, the 21:30 UT of this event renders it inaccessible,
  except from Russia.  Even from Calar Alto, Saturn is rising through 3
  airmasses at 23:00 UT.  Do you know anyone in Russia or Ukraine with
  a big telescope and 10 um instrumentation that's looking for something
  to do?  I'd be willing to make a personal grant of >$100 for the data.

  Jay

and again:

  please try to encourage anyone that can observe the iapetus planet
  disappearance to do so at thermal wavelengths.  My impression would
  be that it's not an easy observation.  Iapetus will be faint and
  getting fainter in eclipse, so you'll need a big telescope that's a
  good IR telescope and reasonable 10 - 20 um instrumentation.  I don't
  think that combination is widely available at the longitudes that are
  well placed for observation.  We need SOFIA for this one.  One
  possibility would be the IR telescope in India, but it's only a 1.2 m.

jay

Wishful thinking mostly. It's more likely that the Moon will never
be the site of major commercial activity. As far as we know it has no
materials we can't get cheaper right here on Earth or from asteroids
and comets, aside from the semi-mythic He3 that *might* be useful in low
grade fusion reactors. Exploring it would satisfy a curiosity itch, 
and it's position in the gravity well of Earth coupled with it's heat 
sink capacity could offer some military utility for "high ground" military
weapons systems, but it holds very minute commercial value. If space 
travel becomes cheap enough, it might become a tourist attraction as 
Mt. Everest and the Antarctic have become, but that's a very minor 
activity in the global scope of things.

Luna has an inconvienent gravity field. It's likely too low to prevent
calcium loss, muscle atrophy, and long term genetic drift. Yet it's
too high to do micro-G manufacturing. Space based colonies and factories
that can be spun to any convienent value of G look much better. Luna
has a modest vacuum and raw solar exposure two weeks a month, but orbital
sites can have better vacuums and continous solar exposure. Luna offers
a source of light element rocks that can serve as raw materials, heatsink,
and shielding. The asteroids and comets offer sources of both light and
heavy elements, and volatile compounds, and many are in less steep gravity
wells so that less delta-v is required to reach them.

We don't use 2/3rds of the Earth now, the seafloors, and we virtually
ignore Antarctica, a whole continent. That's because we don't have to
deal with those conditions in order to make a buck. Luna is a much more
expensive place to visit, or to live and work. I think we'll use the
easier places first. That pushes Lunar development back at least a few
centuries, if not much longer.

Luna's main short term value would be as a place for a farside radio
astronomy observatory, shielded from the noisy Earth. Or as the site
of a laser, particle beam, or linear accelerator weapons system for
defending Earth, or bombarding it as the case may be. The first is
unlikely because of the high cost for such a basic science instrument.
The second is just as unlikely because conventional nukes are good
enough, and the military would really rather see the Earth safe for
conventional warfare again. There's little glory in watching from a
bunker as machines fight each other over continental ranges. Little
ultimate profit either.

Gary

Let us explore this interesting paragraph point by point, sentence by
sentence.

1) We are talking about origins, not merely science.

Origins of what?  Are we speaking of the origins of life, the human
species, the universe, physical law, biological diversity or what?

2) Science cannot explain origins.

This is a false statement unless it is carefully qualified.  It depends
on what origins we are talking about.

3) For a person to exclude anything but science from the issue of origins
is to say that there is no higher truth than science.

Again, this is a false statement.  To begin with, the notion of "higher
truth" is distinctly dubious.  Many people believe that there are ways
to ascertain truth that are not in the repetoire of science; they even
believe that there are ways that are more reliable and certain.  Many
believe that there are truths that cannot be expressed using the language
of science.  Let it be so.  These truths are neither "higher" or 
"lower"; they are simply true.

More to the point, restricting one's discussion of origins to science
does not reject other sources of knowledge; it simply restricts the
scope of discussion.

4) This is a false premise.

If this is intended as asserting that the previous sentence was false
then (4) is actually true.  However the context identifies it as another
false [or at least theologically unsound] statement.

5) By the way, I enjoy science.

On the evidence Mr. Rawlins lacks sufficient understanding of science
to enjoy science in any meaningful sense.  One might just as well say
that one enjoys literature written in a language that one cannot read.
However one cannot mark this sentence as false -- to follow the analogy,
perhaps he likes the pretty shapes of the letters.

6) It is truly a wonder observing God's creation.

Let us not quibble; count this one as true.

7) Macroevolution is a mixture of 15 percent science and 85 percent
religion [guaranteed within three percent error :) ]

Still another false statement.  However one can make it come out true
with the following contextual modification:

"Macroevolution, as misunderstood by Rawline, is a mixture of 15 percent
of what Rawlins erroneously thinks of as science, and 85 percent of
what Rawlins erroneously thinks of as religion."

-----

It is distinctly noticeable that Mr. Rawlins fails miserably to touch
on truth except when he reports personally on what he feels.  [I do
him the justice of assuming that he is not misinforming us as to his
personal reactions.]  One can account for this by the hypothesis that
he has an idiosyncratic and personal concept of truth.

That's a typical claim, though they say they've improved
compression speed considerably.  Did you find out anything else
about the book?  I'd be interested in looking at it if you could give me
any pointers.

Reportedly, early fractal compression times of 24-100 hours used
that marvelous piece of hardware called "grad students" to do the
work.  Supposedly it's been automated since about 1988, but I'm still
waiting to be impressed.

(excess stuff deleted...)

I know of a similar incident about 3 years ago.  A climatologist( Ithink 
that was his profession) named Iben Browning predicted that an earthquake 
would hit the New Madrid fault on Dec.3.  Some schools in Missouri that were 
on the fault line actually cancelled school for the day.  Many people 
evacuated New Madrid and other towns in teh are.  I wouldn't be suprised if 
there were more journalists in the area than residents.  Of course, teh 
earthquake never occured.  HOw do I know about his?  I used to live in 
Southern Illinois and the lican middle school was built directly on the 
fault line.  No we still had school... We laughed at the poor idiots who 
believed the prediction. :):):):)

Bob, if you're wanting an excuse to convert to Christianity, you gonna have 
to look elsewhere.

The most current orbital elements from the NORAD two-line element sets are
carried on the Celestial BBS, (513) 427-0674, and are updated daily (when
possible).  Documentation and tracking software are also available on this
system.  As a service to the satellite user community, the most current
elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below.  The Celestial
BBS may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, 2400, 4800, or 9600 bps using
8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity.

Element sets (also updated daily), shuttle elements, and some documentation
and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive.afit.af.mil
(129.92.1.66) in the directory pub/space.

STS 56     
1 22621U 93 23  A 93105.58333333  .00090711  00000-0  25599-3 0   249
2 22621  57.0029 144.8669 0004136 304.2989 134.3206 15.92851555  1179
1993 023B  
1 22623U 93 23  B 93103.37312705  .00041032  00000-0  11888-3 0    86
2 22623  57.0000 155.1150 0004422 293.4650  66.5967 15.92653917   803

Archive-name: space/probe
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:19 $

PLANETARY PROBES - HISTORICAL MISSIONS

    This section was lightly adapted from an original posting by Larry Klaes
    (klaes@verga.enet.dec.com), mostly minor formatting changes. Matthew
    Wiener (weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu) contributed the section on
    Voyager, and the section on Sakigake was obtained from ISAS material
    posted by Yoshiro Yamada (yamada@yscvax.ysc.go.jp).

US PLANETARY MISSIONS

    MARINER (VENUS, MARS, & MERCURY FLYBYS AND ORBITERS)

    MARINER 1, the first U.S. attempt to send a spacecraft to Venus, failed
    minutes after launch in 1962. The guidance instructions from the ground
    stopped reaching the rocket due to a problem with its antenna, so the
    onboard computer took control. However, there turned out to be a bug in
    the guidance software, and the rocket promptly went off course, so the
    Range Safety Officer destroyed it. Although the bug is sometimes claimed
    to have been an incorrect FORTRAN DO statement, it was actually a
    transcription error in which the bar (indicating smoothing) was omitted
    from the expression "R-dot-bar sub n" (nth smoothed value of derivative
    of radius). This error led the software to treat normal minor variations
    of velocity as if they were serious, leading to incorrect compensation.

    MARINER 2 became the first successful probe to flyby Venus in December
    of 1962, and it returned information which confirmed that Venus is a
    very hot (800 degrees Fahrenheit, now revised to 900 degrees F.) world
    with a cloud-covered atmosphere composed primarily of carbon dioxide
    (sulfuric acid was later confirmed in 1978).

    MARINER 3, launched on November 5, 1964, was lost when its protective
    shroud failed to eject as the craft was placed into interplanetary
    space. Unable to collect the Sun's energy for power from its solar
    panels, the probe soon died when its batteries ran out and is now in
    solar orbit. It was intended for a Mars flyby with MARINER 4.

    MARINER 4, the sister probe to MARINER 3, did reach Mars in 1965 and
    took the first close-up images of the Martian surface (22 in all) as it
    flew by the planet. The probe found a cratered world with an atmosphere
    much thinner than previously thought. Many scientists concluded from
    this preliminary scan that Mars was a "dead" world in both the
    geological and biological sense.

    MARINER 5 was sent to Venus in 1967. It reconfirmed the data on that
    planet collected five years earlier by MARINER 2, plus the information
    that Venus' atmospheric pressure at its surface is at least 90 times
    that of Earth's, or the equivalent of being 3,300 feet under the surface
    of an ocean.

    MARINER 6 and 7 were sent to Mars in 1969 and expanded upon the work
    done by MARINER 4 four years earlier. However, they failed to take away
    the concept of Mars as a "dead" planet, first made from the basic
    measurements of MARINER 4.

    MARINER 8 ended up in the Atlantic Ocean in 1971 when the rocket
    launcher autopilot failed.

    MARINER 9, the sister probe to MARINER 8, became the first craft to
    orbit Mars in 1971. It returned information on the Red Planet that no
    other probe had done before, revealing huge volcanoes on the Martian
    surface, as well as giant canyon systems, and evidence that water once
    flowed across the planet. The probe also took the first detailed closeup
    images of Mars' two small moons, Phobos and Deimos.

    MARINER 10 used Venus as a gravity assist to Mercury in 1974. The probe
    did return the first close-up images of the Venusian atmosphere in
    ultraviolet, revealing previously unseen details in the cloud cover,
    plus the fact that the entire cloud system circles the planet in four
    Earth days. MARINER 10 eventually made three flybys of Mercury from 1974
    to 1975 before running out of attitude control gas. The probe revealed
    Mercury as a heavily cratered world with a mass much greater than
    thought. This would seem to indicate that Mercury has an iron core which
    makes up 75 percent of the entire planet.

    PIONEER (MOON, SUN, VENUS, JUPITER, and SATURN FLYBYS AND ORBITERS)

    PIONEER 1 through 3 failed to meet their main objective - to photograph
    the Moon close-up - but they did reach far enough into space to provide
    new information on the area between Earth and the Moon, including new
    data on the Van Allen radiation belts circling Earth. All three craft
    had failures with their rocket launchers. PIONEER 1 was launched on
    October 11, 1958, PIONEER 2 on November 8, and PIONEER 3 on December 6.

    PIONEER 4 was a Moon probe which missed the Moon and became the first
    U.S. spacecraft to orbit the Sun in 1959. PIONEER 5 was originally
    designed to flyby Venus, but the mission was scaled down and it instead
    studied the interplanetary environment between Venus and Earth out to
    36.2 million kilometers in 1960, a record until MARINER 2. PIONEER 6
    through 9 were placed into solar orbit from 1965 to 1968: PIONEER 6, 7,
    and 8 are still transmitting information at this time. PIONEER E (would
    have been number 10) suffered a launch failure in 1969.

    PIONEER 10 became the first spacecraft to flyby Jupiter in 1973. PIONEER
    11 followed it in 1974, and then went on to become the first probe to
    study Saturn in 1979. Both vehicles should continue to function through
    1995 and are heading off into interstellar space, the first craft ever
    to do so.

    PIONEER Venus 1 (1978) (also known as PIONEER Venus Orbiter, or PIONEER
    12) burned up in the Venusian atmosphere on October 8, 1992. PVO made
    the first radar studies of the planet's surface via probe. PIONEER Venus
    2 (also known as PIONEER 13) sent four small probes into the atmosphere
    in December of 1978. The main spacecraft bus burned up high in the
    atmosphere, while the four probes descended by parachute towards the
    surface. Though none were expected to survive to the surface, the Day
    probe did make it and transmitted for 67.5 minutes on the ground before
    its batteries failed.

    RANGER (LUNAR LANDER AND IMPACT MISSIONS)

    RANGER 1 and 2 were test probes for the RANGER lunar impact series. They
    were meant for high Earth orbit testing in 1961, but rocket problems
    left them in useless low orbits which quickly decayed.

    RANGER 3, launched on January 26, 1962, was intended to land an
    instrument capsule on the surface of the Moon, but problems during the
    launch caused the probe to miss the Moon and head into solar orbit.
    RANGER 3 did try to take some images of the Moon as it flew by, but the
    camera was unfortunately aimed at deep space during the attempt.

    RANGER 4, launched April 23, 1962, had the same purpose as RANGER 3, but
    suffered technical problems enroute and crashed on the lunar farside,
    the first U.S. probe to reach the Moon, albeit without returning data.

    RANGER 5, launched October 18, 1962 and similar to RANGER 3 and 4, lost
    all solar panel and battery power enroute and eventually missed the Moon
    and drifted off into solar orbit.

    RANGER 6 through 9 had more modified lunar missions: They were to send
    back live images of the lunar surface as they headed towards an impact
    with the Moon. RANGER 6 failed this objective in 1964 when its cameras
    did not operate. RANGER 7 through 9 performed well, becoming the first
    U.S. lunar probes to return thousands of lunar images through 1965.

    LUNAR ORBITER (LUNAR SURFACE PHOTOGRAPHY)

    LUNAR ORBITER 1 through 5 were designed to orbit the Moon and image
    various sites being studied as landing areas for the manned APOLLO
    missions of 1969-1972. The probes also contributed greatly to our
    understanding of lunar surface features, particularly the lunar farside.
    All five probes of the series, launched from 1966 to 1967, were
    essentially successful in their missions. They were the first U.S.
    probes to orbit the Moon. All LOs were eventually crashed into the lunar
    surface to avoid interference with the manned APOLLO missions.

    SURVEYOR (LUNAR SOFT LANDERS)

    The SURVEYOR series were designed primarily to see if an APOLLO lunar
    module could land on the surface of the Moon without sinking into the
    soil (before this time, it was feared by some that the Moon was covered
    in great layers of dust, which would not support a heavy landing
    vehicle). SURVEYOR was successful in proving that the lunar surface was
    strong enough to hold up a spacecraft from 1966 to 1968.

    Only SURVEYOR 2 and 4 were unsuccessful missions. The rest became the
    first U.S. probes to soft land on the Moon, taking thousands of images
    and scooping the soil for analysis. APOLLO 12 landed 600 feet from
    SURVEYOR 3 in 1969 and returned parts of the craft to Earth. SURVEYOR 7,
    the last of the series, was a purely scientific mission which explored
    the Tycho crater region in 1968.

    VIKING (MARS ORBITERS AND LANDERS)

    VIKING 1 was launched from Cape Canaveral, Florida on August 20, 1975 on
    a TITAN 3E-CENTAUR D1 rocket. The probe went into Martian orbit on June
    19, 1976, and the lander set down on the western slopes of Chryse
    Planitia on July 20, 1976. It soon began its programmed search for
    Martian micro-organisms (there is still debate as to whether the probes
    found life there or not), and sent back incredible color panoramas of
    its surroundings. One thing scientists learned was that Mars' sky was
    pinkish in color, not dark blue as they originally thought (the sky is
    pink due to sunlight reflecting off the reddish dust particles in the
    thin atmosphere). The lander set down among a field of red sand and
    boulders stretching out as far as its cameras could image.

    The VIKING 1 orbiter kept functioning until August 7, 1980, when it ran
    out of attitude-control propellant. The lander was switched into a
    weather-reporting mode, where it had been hoped it would keep
    functioning through 1994; but after November 13, 1982, an errant command
    had been sent to the lander accidentally telling it to shut down until
    further orders. Communication was never regained again, despite the
    engineers' efforts through May of 1983.

    An interesting side note: VIKING 1's lander has been designated the
    Thomas A. Mutch Memorial Station in honor of the late leader of the
    lander imaging team. The National Air and Space Museum in Washington,
    D.C. is entrusted with the safekeeping of the Mutch Station Plaque until
    it can be attached to the lander by a manned expedition.

    VIKING 2 was launched on September 9, 1975, and arrived in Martian orbit
    on August 7, 1976. The lander touched down on September 3, 1976 in
    Utopia Planitia. It accomplished essentially the same tasks as its
    sister lander, with the exception that its seisometer worked, recording
    one marsquake. The orbiter had a series of attitude-control gas leaks in
    1978, which prompted it being shut down that July. The lander was shut
    down on April 12, 1980.

    The orbits of both VIKING orbiters should decay around 2025.

    VOYAGER (OUTER PLANET FLYBYS)

    VOYAGER 1 was launched September 5, 1977, and flew past Jupiter on March
    5, 1979 and by Saturn on November 13, 1980. VOYAGER 2 was launched
    August 20, 1977 (before VOYAGER 1), and flew by Jupiter on August 7,
    1979, by Saturn on August 26, 1981, by Uranus on January 24, 1986, and
    by Neptune on August 8, 1989. VOYAGER 2 took advantage of a rare
    once-every-189-years alignment to slingshot its way from outer planet to
    outer planet. VOYAGER 1 could, in principle, have headed towards Pluto,
    but JPL opted for the sure thing of a Titan close up.

    Between the two probes, our knowledge of the 4 giant planets, their
    satellites, and their rings has become immense. VOYAGER 1&2 discovered
    that Jupiter has complicated atmospheric dynamics, lightning and
    aurorae. Three new satellites were discovered. Two of the major
    surprises were that Jupiter has rings and that Io has active sulfurous
    volcanoes, with major effects on the Jovian magnetosphere.

    When the two probes reached Saturn, they discovered over 1000 ringlets
    and 7 satellites, including the predicted shepherd satellites that keep
    the rings stable. The weather was tame compared with Jupiter: massive
    jet streams with minimal variance (a 33-year great white spot/band cycle
    is known). Titan's atmosphere was smoggy. Mimas' appearance was
    startling: one massive impact crater gave it the Death Star appearance.
    The big surprise here was the stranger aspects of the rings. Braids,
    kinks, and spokes were both unexpected and difficult to explain.

    VOYAGER 2, thanks to heroic engineering and programming efforts,
    continued the mission to Uranus and Neptune. Uranus itself was highly
    monochromatic in appearance. One oddity was that its magnetic axis was
    found to be highly skewed from the already completely skewed rotational
    axis, giving Uranus a peculiar magnetosphere. Icy channels were found on
    Ariel, and Miranda was a bizarre patchwork of different terrains. 10
    satellites and one more ring were discovered.

    In contrast to Uranus, Neptune was found to have rather active weather,
    including numerous cloud features. The ring arcs turned out to be bright
    patches on one ring. Two other rings, and 6 other satellites, were
    discovered. Neptune's magnetic axis was also skewed. Triton had a
    canteloupe appearance and geysers. (What's liquid at 38K?)

    The two VOYAGERs are expected to last for about two more decades. Their
    on-target journeying gives negative evidence about possible planets
    beyond Pluto. Their next major scientific discovery should be the
    location of the heliopause.

SOVIET PLANETARY MISSIONS

    Since there have been so many Soviet probes to the Moon, Venus, and
    Mars, I will highlight only the primary missions:

    SOVIET LUNAR PROBES

    LUNA 1 - Lunar impact attempt in 1959, missed Moon and became first
	     craft in solar orbit.
    LUNA 2 - First craft to impact on lunar surface in 1959.
    LUNA 3 - Took first images of lunar farside in 1959.
    ZOND 3 - Took first images of lunar farside in 1965 since LUNA 3. Was
	     also a test for future Mars missions.
    LUNA 9 - First probe to soft land on the Moon in 1966, returned images
	     from surface.
    LUNA 10 - First probe to orbit the Moon in 1966.
    LUNA 13 - Second successful Soviet lunar soft landing mission in 1966.
    ZOND 5 - First successful circumlunar craft. ZOND 6 through 8
	     accomplished similar missions through 1970. The probes were
	     unmanned tests of a manned orbiting SOYUZ-type lunar vehicle.
    LUNA 16 - First probe to land on Moon and return samples of lunar soil
	      to Earth in 1970. LUNA 20 accomplished similar mission in
	      1972.
    LUNA 17 - Delivered the first unmanned lunar rover to the Moon's
	      surface, LUNOKHOD 1, in 1970. A similar feat was accomplished
	      with LUNA 21/LUNOKHOD 2 in 1973.
    LUNA 24 - Last Soviet lunar mission to date. Returned soil samples in
	      1976.

    SOVIET VENUS PROBES

    VENERA 1 - First acknowledged attempt at Venus mission. Transmissions
	       lost enroute in 1961.
    VENERA 2 - Attempt to image Venus during flyby mission in tandem with
	       VENERA 3. Probe ceased transmitting just before encounter in
	       February of 1966. No images were returned.
    VENERA 3 - Attempt to place a lander capsule on Venusian surface.
	       Transmissions ceased just before encounter and entire probe
	       became the first craft to impact on another planet in 1966.
    VENERA 4 - First probe to successfully return data while descending
	       through Venusian atmosphere. Crushed by air pressure before
	       reaching surface in 1967. VENERA 5 and 6 mission profiles
	       similar in 1969.
    VENERA 7 - First probe to return data from the surface of another planet
	       in 1970. VENERA 8 accomplished a more detailed mission in
	       1972.
    VENERA 9 - Sent first image of Venusian surface in 1975. Was also the
	       first probe to orbit Venus. VENERA 10 accomplished similar
	       mission.
    VENERA 13 - Returned first color images of Venusian surface in 1982.
		VENERA 14 accomplished similar mission.
    VENERA 15 - Accomplished radar mapping with VENERA 16 of sections of
		planet's surface in 1983 more detailed than PVO.
    VEGA 1 - Accomplished with VEGA 2 first balloon probes of Venusian
	     atmosphere in 1985, including two landers. Flyby buses went on
	     to become first spacecraft to study Comet Halley close-up in
	     March of 1986.

    SOVIET MARS PROBES

    MARS 1 - First acknowledged Mars probe in 1962. Transmissions ceased
	     enroute the following year.
    ZOND 2 - First possible attempt to place a lander capsule on Martian
	     surface. Probe signals ceased enroute in 1965.
    MARS 2 - First Soviet Mars probe to land - albeit crash - on Martian
	     surface. Orbiter section first Soviet probe to circle the Red
	     Planet in 1971.
    MARS 3 - First successful soft landing on Martian surface, but lander
	     signals ceased after 90 seconds in 1971.
    MARS 4 - Attempt at orbiting Mars in 1974, braking rockets failed to
	     fire, probe went on into solar orbit.
    MARS 5 - First fully successful Soviet Mars mission, orbiting Mars in
	     1974. Returned images of Martian surface comparable to U.S.
	     probe MARINER 9.
    MARS 6 - Landing attempt in 1974. Lander crashed into the surface.
    MARS 7 - Lander missed Mars completely in 1974, went into a solar orbit
	     with its flyby bus.
    PHOBOS 1 - First attempt to land probes on surface of Mars' largest
	       moon, Phobos. Probe failed enroute in 1988 due to
	       human/computer error.
    PHOBOS 2 - Attempt to land probes on Martian moon Phobos. The probe did
	       enter Mars orbit in early 1989, but signals ceased one week
	       before scheduled Phobos landing.

    While there has been talk of Soviet Jupiter, Saturn, and even
    interstellar probes within the next thirty years, no major steps have
    yet been taken with these projects. More intensive studies of the Moon,
    Mars, Venus, and various comets have been planned for the 1990s, and a
    Mercury mission to orbit and land probes on the tiny world has been
    planned for 2003. How the many changes in the former Soviet Union (now
    the Commonwealth of Independent States) will affect the future of their
    space program remains to be seen.

JAPANESE PLANETARY MISSIONS

    SAKIGAKE (MS-T5) was launched from the Kagoshima Space Center by ISAS on
    January 8 1985, and approached Halley's Comet within about 7 million km
    on March 11, 1986. The spacecraft is carrying three instru- ments to
    measure interplanetary magnetic field/plasma waves/solar wind, all of
    which work normally now, so ISAS made an Earth swingby by Sakigake on
    January 8, 1992 into an orbit similar to the earth's. The closest
    approach was at 23h08m47s (JST=UTC+9h) on January 8, 1992. The
    geocentric distance was 88,997 km. This is the first planet-swingby for
    a Japanese spacecraft.

    During the approach, Sakigake observed the geotail. Some geotail
    passages will be scheduled in some years hence. The second Earth-swingby
    will be on June 14, 1993 (at 40 Re (Earth's radius)), and the third
    October 28, 1994 (at 86 Re).

    HITEN, a small lunar probe, was launched into Earth orbit on January 24,
    1990. The spacecraft was then known as MUSES-A, but was renamed to Hiten
    once in orbit. The 430 lb probe looped out from Earth and made its first
    lunary flyby on March 19, where it dropped off its 26 lb midget
    satellite, HAGOROMO. Japan at this point became the third nation to
    orbit a satellite around the Moon, joining the Unites States and USSR.

    The smaller spacecraft, Hagoromo, remained in orbit around the Moon. An
    apparently broken transistor radio caused the Japanese space scientists
    to lose track of it. Hagoromo's rocket motor fired on schedule on March
    19, but the spacecraft's tracking transmitter failed immediately. The
    rocket firing of Hagoromo was optically confirmed using the Schmidt
    camera (105-cm, F3.1) at the Kiso Observatory in Japan.

    Hiten made multiple lunar flybys at approximately monthly intervals and
    performed aerobraking experiments using the Earth's atmosphere. Hiten
    made a close approach to the moon at 22:33 JST (UTC+9h) on February 15,
    1992 at the height of 423 km from the moon's surface (35.3N, 9.7E) and
    fired its propulsion system for about ten minutes to put the craft into
    lunar orbit. The following is the orbital calculation results after the
    approach:

	Apoapsis Altitude: about 49,400 km
	Periapsis Altitude: about 9,600 km
	Inclination	: 34.7 deg (to ecliptic plane)
	Period		: 4.7 days

PLANETARY MISSION REFERENCES

    I also recommend reading the following works, categorized in three
    groups: General overviews, specific books on particular space missions,
    and periodical sources on space probes. This list is by no means
    complete; it is primarily designed to give you places to start your
    research through generally available works on the subject. If anyone can
    add pertinent works to the list, it would be greatly appreciated.

    Though naturally I recommend all the books listed below, I think it
    would be best if you started out with the general overview books, in
    order to give you a clear idea of the history of space exploration in
    this area. I also recommend that you pick up some good, up-to-date
    general works on astronomy and the Sol system, to give you some extra
    background. Most of these books and periodicals can be found in any good
    public and university library. Some of the more recently published works
    can also be purchased in and/or ordered through any good mass- market
    bookstore.

    General Overviews (in alphabetical order by author):

      J. Kelly Beatty et al, THE NEW SOLAR SYSTEM, 1990.

      Merton E. Davies and Bruce C. Murray, THE VIEW FROM SPACE:
       PHOTOGRAPHIC EXPLORATION OF THE PLANETS, 1971

      Kenneth Gatland, THE ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SPACE
       TECHNOLOGY, 1990

      Kenneth Gatland, ROBOT EXPLORERS, 1972

      R. Greeley, PLANETARY LANDSCAPES, 1987

      Douglas Hart, THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SOVIET SPACECRAFT, 1987

      Nicholas L. Johnson, HANDBOOK OF SOVIET LUNAR AND PLANETARY
       EXPLORATION, 1979

      Clayton R. Koppes, JPL AND THE AMERICAN SPACE PROGRAM: A
       HISTORY OF THE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY, 1982

      Richard S. Lewis, THE ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE
       UNIVERSE, 1983

      Mark Littman, PLANETS BEYOND: DISCOVERING THE OUTER SOLAR
       SYSTEM, 1988

      Eugene F. Mallove and Gregory L. Matloff, THE STARFLIGHT
       HANDBOOK: A PIONEER'S GUIDE TO INTERSTELLAR TRAVEL, 1989

      Frank Miles and Nicholas Booth, RACE TO MARS: THE MARS
       FLIGHT ATLAS, 1988

      Bruce Murray, JOURNEY INTO SPACE, 1989

      Oran W. Nicks, FAR TRAVELERS, 1985 (NASA SP-480)

      James E. Oberg, UNCOVERING SOVIET DISASTERS: EXPLORING THE
       LIMITS OF GLASNOST, 1988

      Carl Sagan, COMET, 1986

      Carl Sagan, THE COSMIC CONNECTION, 1973

      Carl Sagan, PLANETS, 1969 (LIFE Science Library)

      Arthur Smith, PLANETARY EXPLORATION: THIRTY YEARS OF UNMANNED
       SPACE PROBES, 1988

      Andrew Wilson, (JANE'S) SOLAR SYSTEM LOG, 1987

    Specific Mission References:

      Charles A. Cross and Patrick Moore, THE ATLAS OF MERCURY, 1977
       (The MARINER 10 mission to Venus and Mercury, 1973-1975)

      Joel Davis, FLYBY: THE INTERPLANETARY ODYSSEY OF VOYAGER 2, 1987

      Irl Newlan, FIRST TO VENUS: THE STORY OF MARINER 2, 1963

      Margaret Poynter and Arthur L. Lane, VOYAGER: THE STORY OF A
       SPACE MISSION, 1984

      Carl Sagan, MURMURS OF EARTH, 1978 (Deals with the Earth
       information records placed on VOYAGER 1 and 2 in case the
       probes are found by intelligences in interstellar space,
       as well as the probes and planetary mission objectives
       themselves.)

    Other works and periodicals:

    NASA has published very detailed and technical books on every space
    probe mission it has launched. Good university libraries will carry
    these books, and they are easily found simply by knowing which mission
    you wish to read about. I recommend these works after you first study
    some of the books listed above.

    Some periodicals I recommend for reading on space probes are NATIONAL
    GEOGRAPHIC, which has written articles on the PIONEER probes to Earth's
    Moon Luna and the Jovian planets Jupiter and Saturn, the RANGER,
    SURVEYOR, LUNAR ORBITER, and APOLLO missions to Luna, the MARINER
    missions to Mercury, Venus, and Mars, the VIKING probes to Mars, and the
    VOYAGER missions to Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.

    More details on American, Soviet, European, and Japanese probe missions
    can be found in SKY AND TELESCOPE, ASTRONOMY, SCIENCE, NATURE, and
    SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN magazines. TIME, NEWSWEEK, and various major
    newspapers can supply not only general information on certain missions,
    but also show you what else was going on with Earth at the time events
    were unfolding, if that is of interest to you. Space missions are
    affected by numerous political, economic, and climatic factors, as you
    probably know.

    Depending on just how far your interest in space probes will go, you
    might also wish to join The Planetary Society, one of the largest space
    groups in the world dedicated to planetary exploration. Their
    periodical, THE PLANETARY REPORT, details the latest space probe
    missions. Write to The Planetary Society, 65 North Catalina Avenue,
    Pasadena, California 91106 USA.

    Good luck with your studies in this area of space exploration. I
    personally find planetary missions to be one of the more exciting areas
    in this field, and the benefits human society has and will receive from
    it are incredible, with many yet to be realized.

    Larry Klaes  klaes@verga.enet.dec.com

Specifically, which changes are you talking about?  Are you arguing
that the motto is interpreted as offensive by a larger portion of the
population now than 40 years ago?

No it didn't.  The motto has been on various coins since the Civil War.
It was just required to be on *all* currency in the 50's.

Does anybody know what Delaunay Triangulation is?
Is there any reference to it? 
Is it useful for creating 3-D objects? If yes, what's the advantage?

Thanks in advance.

How is it ever going to be an Off- the Shelf Technology if someone doesn't
do it?  Maybe we should do this as part of the SSF design goals. ;-)

Gee fred.  After your bitter defense of 20 KHz power as a Basic technology
for SSF, Id think you would support a minor research program like this.

And does anyone who knows more Particle physics then me,  know if the IPNS
could Prove this technology?

Yeah, do you expect people to read the FAQ, etc. and actually accept hard
atheism?  No, you need a little leap of faith, Jimmy.  Your logic runs out
of steam!

Jim,

Sorry I can't pity you, Jim.  And I'm sorry that you have these feelings of
denial about the faith you need to get by.  Oh well, just pretend that it will
all end happily ever after anyway.  Maybe if you start a new newsgroup,
alt.atheist.hard, you won't be bummin' so much?

Bye-Bye, Big Jim.  Don't forget your Flintstone's Chewables!  :) 
--
Bake Timmons, III

Well, chimps must have some system.  They live in social groups
as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior.

Our shop uses a package called CADCore - very good - to scan and
subsequently vectorize original maps into digital maps. The problem is that
once the raster file is loaded into the CADCore package, a header is added
to the .HRF file which makes it unreadable by the supplied converter. We
would like to be able to ship some of the already-altered raster images for
further use on our workstations. So, here are my questions:

 (1) What is the Hitachi format? - I need this format so I can recognize
precisely what to strip out. I strongly suspect that it's a compressed
format - if so, then t might not be possible for me to strip out the
offending header.

 (2) Are there any UNIX packages that read and recognize HRF? It would be
really nice to find some sort of "hrftopbm" converter out there. ;)

Has anyone written or seen a C library or C++ class for fixed-point math,
or good articles about same?

I pretty much know how to do this, but I have a few other wheels to invent
at the moment...

Thanks!

Hi,
	would someone please email the new AVI file
	format.  I'm sure that many people would 
like to know what it is exactly.

Thank you

Mark Gregory Lecturer m.gregory@rmit.edu.au PH(03)6603243 FAX(03)6621060
Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology,
Department of Communication and Electronic Engineering,
P.O. Box 2476V, Melbourne, Victoria, 3001. AUSTRALIA.

#In <mcclaryC5snpq.KB1@netcom.com> mcclary@netcom.com (Michael McClary)
#        Just thought I'd clear up a few of the murky areas...
#
#>Actually, after surviving being driven out of Nauvoo, and later Carthage,
#>the Mormons DID fortify Utah.  They still arm themselves to "defend the
#>faith", and stockpile food as well.  They have been involved in quite a
#>lot of illegal activity - including multiple (and often underage) wives
#>for the leaders - a practice still in vogue with some splinters of their
#>sect.  The parallels between Koresh and Joseph Smith are striking.
#                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^

By "they," you mean the leaders of the lds church?  I grant you that when
Joseph Smith was still alive, plenty of "accusations" were filed, most of
which had little bearing with reality, as evidenced by various verdicts.
I have studied lds history for 15 years now, and I have yet to see prove
that the lds leadership was involved, in quote: "illegal activities."
Plural marriage, yes, but your charge of "underage" wives sounds like it
could have originated from a tabloid, and discredits the high moral
standards which characterized these leaders and families, unlike, as it
appears, those of David Koresh.

#        Joseph Smith started the sect.  After he and his brother Hyram
#were murdered in a Nauvoo, Il. jail cell, church membership split over
#who to follow.  Initially, Smith was considered a prophet (just like
#Mohammed, a rather interesting parallel considering Muslims consider
#Christ to be a prophet the same as Jews, I'm led to understand.  Make
#no mistake, this was no messiah we're talking about in Smith).  The

And neither did he claim he was.  As the church reflects the moral
aptitude of its leaders (and especially those of Joseph Smith), I have
nothing but the highest respect for this inspired man, whose only "crime"
was that he refused to deny that he had seen a vision...  Many have tried
to explain the "Smith phenomenon" away, but the bold presence of an 8.5
million member strong church stands as a witness that Joseph Smith's
testimony had enough resilience and power to carry on the message.

#thought at the time was that the gift of prophecy was to be handed
#down father to son.  After Joseph Smith died, his son was only
#entering his teens.  Brigham Young and a few others claimed to have
#been bequeathed the gift and leadership prior to his death.  The
#Council of Twelve, the Church governing body, wasn't of much help
#here, and this basic conflict is still a wedge between the sects.
#Brigham Young took his followers to Salt Lake.  The rest waited
#for Smith Jr. to grow up enough to assume leadership.  The other
#claimants to the leadership were soon ignored, like Mike Dukakis. ;-)

"The rest" were apostates and excommunicated members of the Church,
while the great majority of the membership, the Twelve, and the various
auxiliary organizations, chose to accept Brigham Young as the new
prophet and leader of the Church.  If you knew your lds scriptures and
doctrine, you would have known that Brigham Young was the FIRST in
line to fill the prophet Joseph Smith's vacancy: he was the senior
apostle in the Quorum, and various comments made by Joseph indicated
that it was Brigham who would lead the latter-day exodus to the West.

Other rightful "heirs" were either dead (Hyrum Smith) or excommunicated
(Oliver Cowdery), and while persecutions abounded and intensified,
Joseph Smith had already given orders to look for a new place, an empty
land beyond the boundaries of the United States (at that time).  This
"Rekhabite" principle (pseudographia) was well understood and antipated
by the great majority of lds faithful, and was not questioned by them.

Granted, a couple of "do-it-yourselfers" stayed behind, unwilling to
sacrifice and to undertake the perilous journey to the unknown, but
this also was necessary to separate the tares from the wheat.  The
church benefitted from this purification process: they became even
more unified and willing to carry out their mission to the world.

#        Both sects practiced the "1-year food stockpile" doctrine,
#and this being frontier and farming country most carried or at
#least owned weapons.  There is little evidence that they were a
#militaristic sect, given that they tended to move on rather than
#face large-scale opposition.  Brigham Young, having suffered a
#great deal getting to Salt Lake, seems to have been quite
#justified in making military training a good thing.  Remember,
#this was far beyond where even the US Army went, and these people
#had nobody to turn to save themselves.
#
#        Just a little context to put this all in perspective.

BTW, since when is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (one of
the largest denominations in the country) a "sect"???  It didn't "splinter"
from any other religion, as did say, the Southern Baptists or Methodists.

#>So what did the Mormons get?  It seems that J. Edgar Hoover was very
#>impressed with the way they kept secrets.  (They're pledged to defend
#>secrets with their lives and atone for sin with blood.  Many actually
#>do - even to the point of suicide.)

What a balloney.  Suicide is sinful and against the law of God.  I am
not comfortable with this alleged "cosiness" with Mammon: I assure you
that *many* among us reject this attitude categorically.  Period.  Our
ONLY true allegiance is to our God and to the leaders which He has
appointed to represent Him.  In any regard, to read this TRASH (about
suicide and "atone for sins with blood") is yet another insulting
misrepresentation of what my church believes in and stands for...

#
#        The RLDS, the Reorganized LDS, are friendly rivals of the LDS
#and delight in telling stories about them, which generates quick retorts
#from the LDS members and everybody has a grand time.  At no time have
#I ever even heard this hinted at.  I'm taking it with a salt block.

Make it a really big salt mountain with a glacier on top.

#>  So he hired virtually no one but
#>Mormons, until the FBI was almost exclusively staffed by members of the
#>Church of Later Day Saints.  Though J. Edgar is finally gone, the FBI
#>personnel (especially the field agents) are still heavily Mormon.
#>I have often wondered how this might affect the FBI's treatment
#>of religious organizations a Mormon would consider heretical.

Preposterous.  Even if this were true (reliable data, please), I
am convinced that those officers would perform to the highest codes
of honor and conduct (that's why they were selected for in the
first place, remember?).  Besides, one of our Articles of Faith
STRONGLY states the principle of freedom of religion, and that all
people are free to worship "*how*, *where*, or *what* they may."

#        If it's true, there would be little affect.  LDS and RLDS
#philosophy is that all other religions have strayed from the true
#Church as set down by Jesus, but that God will judge each on his
#own merits.  In addition, the RLDS also contend (and the LDS may
#as well) that ignorance of the True Way (tm) is an excuse.  You
#can only be condemned if you had been tought the way and rejected
#it.  In short, LDS and RLDS suffer everybody from Lutherans to
#Buddhists, secure in the knowledge that though they are wrong they
#will not be penalized for ignorance.  It is more likely that Hoover
#liked them because of their rather strict upbringings which forbade
#alcohol, tobacco, hot drink (like coffee or tea), and the like.
#These people are the "salt of the Earth" and as such are more
#easily made to follow orders and have few vices to be used against them.

A good explanation, I can accept that.  You are right that lds people
are sometimes a little too cosy with Mammon's "orders" (the late
president Kimball, for example, was an exception with his strong
opposition of the selection of the MX "Peace Keeper" missile maze
in Utah).

#        That's my somewhat educated guess, anyway.  Both sects have
#splinter groups that don't mirror the masses, but these are small
#and rare, and hardly worth noting their common ancestry.
#
#        None of this has any relevance to guns, though.  When a
#man's religion is used to deny him the right of self-protection with
#the weapons suitable for the job, he'll find an ally in me.
#
#< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
#<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
#<     USENET: Post to exotic, distant machines.  Meet exciting,      >
#<                 unusual people.  And flame them.                   >

Jim Brown wrote :

[ deleted ]
[ deleted ]

  Unfortunately, it's not that simple.  The KJV is preferred by the majority
of fundamentalists (at least here).  The second part of your argument fails
as well, since that statement can be used against any version (not just the
KJV).

[ deleted ]
[ deleted ]

  I would not find this statement to be very useful since it is an appeal
to authority and the opposition will just claim that their authorities are
"better".  A second tact that local creationists have used is to reply "but
those scholars are atheists and cannot be believed" (they will also use this
phrase to describe any theologians that they don't agree with).

[ deleted ]
[ deleted ]

Well, looking at the videos it seems that this fire started in various
places at the same time, which would indicate that this was a planned
action. I'm sure FBI and BATF didn't *deliberately* start a possible
fire, having a sniper kill Korresh would have been a far easier 
method. Looking at the careful operation, and use of tear gas
that as I know don't start fires, it is less likely that this 
was the case.

Sorry, but my bets are on fanatical people keen to start
Armageddon -- theirs.

Cheers,
Kent

I guess the San Jose Mercury news is wrong then, and if so, why is the DA 
involved? 
 
	So, if I were to assert that there are no thousand year old 
invisible pink unicorns* residing in my walls, I need to support this with 
evidence? I think the _lack_ of evidence shall suffice.

	* Who happen to like listening to satanic messages found in playing 
Beethoven's 45th symphony backwards.
---

        "FBI officials said cult leader David Koresh may have 
         forced followers to remain as flames closed in. Koresh's 
         armed guard may have injected as many as 24 children with 
         poison to quiet them."

        -
        
        "And God saw everything he had made, and, behold, in was very 
         good."

They need a hit software product to encourage software sales of the product,
i.e. the Pong, Pacman, VisiCalc, dBase, or Pagemaker of multi-media.
There are some multi-media and digital television products out there already,
albeit, not as capable as 3DO's.  But are there compelling reasons to buy
such yet?  Perhaps someone in this news group will write that hit software :-)

Forwarded from:
PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. (818) 354-5011

Contact:  Mary A. Hardin

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                              April 15, 1993
#1506

     Scientists at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory report the
successful flight of a balloon carrying instruments designed to
measure and study chemicals in the Earth's ozone layer.

     The April 3 flight from California's Barstow/Daggett Airport
reached an altitude of 37 kilometers (121,000 feet) and took
measurements as part of a program established to correlate data
with the Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite (UARS).  

     The data from the balloon flight will also be compared to
readings from the Atmospheric Trace Molecular Spectroscopy
(ATMOS) experiment which is currently flying onboard the shuttle
Discovery.

     "We launch these balloons several times a year as part of an
ongoing ozone research program.  In fact, JPL is actively
involved in the study of ozone and the atmosphere in three
important ways," said Dr. Jim Margitan, principal investigator on
the balloon research campaign.  

     "There are two JPL instruments on the UARS satellite," he
continued.  "The ATMOS experiment is conducted by JPL scientists,
and the JPL balloon research provides collaborative ground truth
for those activities, as well as data that is useful in its own
right."

     The measurements taken by the balloon payload will add more
pieces to the complex puzzle of the atmosphere, specifically the
mid-latitude stratosphere during winter and spring. 
Understanding the chemistry occurring in this region helps
scientists construct more accurate computer models which are
instrumental in predicting future ozone conditions.

     The scientific balloon payload consisted of three JPL
instruments:  an ultraviolet ozone photometer which measures
ozone as the balloon ascends and descends through the atmosphere;
a submillimeterwave limb sounder which looks at microwave
radiation emitted by molecules in the atmosphere; and a Fourier
transform infrared interferometer which monitors how the
atmosphere absorbs sunlight. 

     Launch occurred at about noontime, and following a three-
hour ascent, the balloon floated eastward at approximately 130
kilometers per hour (70 knots).  Data was radioed to ground
stations and recorded onboard.  The flight ended at 10 p.m.
Pacific time in eastern New Mexico when the payload was commanded
to separate from the balloon.

     "We needed to fly through sunset to make the infrared
measurements," Margitan explained, "and we also needed to fly in
darkness to watch how quickly some of the molecules disappear."

     It will be several weeks before scientists will have the
completed results of their experiments.  They will then forward
their data to the UARS central data facility at the Goddard Space
Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland for use by the UARS
scientists.    

     The balloon was launched by the National Scientific Balloon
Facility, normally based in Palestine, Tex., operating under a
contract from NASA's Wallops Flight Facility.  The balloon was
launched in California because of the west-to-east wind direction
and the desire to keep the operation in the southwest.

     The balloons are made of 20-micron (0.8 mil, or less than
one-thousandth of an inch) thick plastic, and are 790,000 cubic
meters (28 million cubic feet) in volume when fully inflated with
helium (120 meters (400 feet) in diameter).  The balloons weigh
between 1,300 and 1,800 kilograms (3,000 and 4,000 pounds).  The
scientific payload weighs about 1,300 kilograms (3,000) pounds
and is 1.8 meters (six feet) square by 4.6 meters (15 feet) high.

     The JPL balloon research is sponsored by NASA's Upper
Atmosphere Research Program and the UARS Correlative Measurements
Program.                        

I believe the reason is that the lung diaphram gets too tired to pump
the liquid in and out and simply stops breathing after 2-3 minutes.
So if your in the vehicle ready to go they better not put you on 
hold, or else!! That's about it. Remember a liquid is several more times
as dense as a gas by its very nature. ~10 I think, depending on the gas
and liquid comparision of course!

Archive-name: space/addresses
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:38:55 $

CONTACTING NASA, ESA, AND OTHER SPACE AGENCIES/COMPANIES

Many space activities center around large Government or International
Bureaucracies.	In the US that means NASA.  If you have basic information
requests: (e.g., general PR info, research grants, data, limited tours, and
ESPECIALLY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT (typically resumes should be ready by Jan.  1),
etc.), consider contacting the nearest NASA Center to answer your questions.

EMail typically will not get you any where, computers are used by
investigators, not PR people. The typical volume of mail per Center is a
multiple of 10,000 letters a day. Seek the Public Information Office at one
of the below, this is their job:

NASA (The National Aeronautics and Space Administration) is the
civilian space agency of of the United States Federal Government.
It reports directly to the White House and is not a Cabinet
post such as the military Department of Defense.  Its 20K+ employees
are civil servants and hence US citizens.  Another 100K+ contractors
also work for NASA.

NASA CENTERS

    NASA Headquarters (NASA HQ)
    Washington DC 20546
    (202)-358-1600

	Ask them questions about policy, money, and things of political
	nature. Direct specific questions to the appropriate center.

    NASA Ames Research Center (ARC)
    Moffett Field, CA 94035
    (415)-694-5091

	Some aeronautical research, atmosphere reentry, Mars and Venus
	planetary atmospheres. "Lead center" for Helicopter research,
	V/STOL, etc. Runs Pioneer series of space probes.

    NASA Ames Research Center
    Dryden Flight Research Facility [DFRF]
    P. O. Box 273
    Edwards, CA  93523
    (805)-258-8381

	Aircraft, mostly. Tested the shuttle orbiter landing
	characteristics. Developed X-1, D-558, X-3, X-4, X-5, XB-70, and of
	course, the X-15.

    NASA Goddard Space Flight Center (GSFC)
    Greenbelt, MD 20771
    [Outside of Washington DC]
    (301)-344-6255

	Earth orbiting unmanned satellites and sounding rockets. Developed
	LANDSAT.

    Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL)
    California Institute of Technology
    4800 Oak Grove Dr.
    Pasadena, CA 91109
    (818)-354-5011

	The "heavies" in planetary research probes and other unmanned
	projects (they also had a lot to do with IRAS). They run Voyager,
	Magellan, Galileo, and will run Cassini, CRAF, etc. etc.. For
	images, probe navigation, and other info about unmanned exploration,
	this is the place to go.

	JPL is run under contract for NASA by the nearby California
	Institute of Technology, unlike the NASA centers above. This
	distinction is subtle but critical. JPL has different requirements
	for unsolicited research proposals and summer hires. For instance in
	the latter, an SF 171 is useless. Employees are Caltech employees,
	contractors, and for the most part have similar responsibilities.
	They offer an alternative to funding after other NASA Centers.

	A fact sheet and description of JPL is available by anonymous
	FTP in

	    ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/JPLDescription

    NASA Johnson Manned Space Center (JSC)
    Houston, TX 77058
    (713)-483-5111

	JSC manages Space Shuttle, ground control of manned missions.
	Astronaut training. Manned mission simulators.

    NASA Kennedy Space Flight Center (KSC)
    Titusville, FL 32899
    (407)-867-2468

	Space launch center. You know this one.

    NASA Langley Research Center (LaRC)
    Hampton, VA 23665
    [Near Newport News, VA]
    (804)-865-2935

	Original NASA site. Specializes in theoretical and experimental
	flight dynamics. Viking. Long Duration Exposure Facility.

    NASA Lewis Research Center (LeRC)
    21000 Brookpark Rd.
    Cleveland, OH 44135
    (216)-433-4000

	Aircraft/Rocket propulsion. Space power generation. Materials
	research.

    NASA Marshall Space Flight Center (MSFC)
    Huntsville, AL 35812
    (205)-453-0034

	Development, production, delivery of Solid Rocket Boosters, External
	Tank, Orbiter main engines. Propulsion and launchers.

    Michoud Assembly Facility
    Orleans Parish
    New Orleans, LA 70129
    (504)-255-2601

	Shuttle external tanks are produced here; formerly Michoud produced
	first stages for the Saturn V.

    Stennis Space Center
    Bay St. Louis, Mississippi 39529
    (601)-688-3341

	Space Shuttle main engines are tested here, as were Saturn V first
	and second stages. The center also does remote-sensing and
	technology-transfer research.

    Wallops Flight Center
    Wallops Island, VA 23337
    (804)824-3411
	    Aeronautical research, sounding rockets, Scout launcher.

    Manager, Technology Utilization Office
    NASA Scientific and Technical Information Facility
    Post Office Box 8757
    Baltimore, Maryland 21240

    Specific requests for software must go thru COSMIC at the Univ. of
    Georgia, NASA's contracted software redistribution service. You can
    reach them at cosmic@uga.bitnet.

    NOTE: Foreign nationals requesting information must go through their
    Embassies in Washington DC. These are facilities of the US Government
    and are regarded with some degree of economic sensitivity. Centers
    cannot directly return information without high Center approval. Allow
    at least 1 month for clearance. This includes COSMIC.

The US Air Force Space Command can be contacted thru the Pentagon along with
    other Department of Defense offices. They have unacknowledged offices in
    Los Angeles, Sunnyvale, Colorado Springs, and other locations. They have
    a budget which rivals NASA in size.

ARIANESPACE HEADQUARTERS
    Boulevard de l'Europe
    B.P. 177
    91006 Evry Cedex
    France

ARIANESPACE, INC.
    1747 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Suite 875
    Washington, DC 20006
    (202)-728-9075

EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY (ESA)
    955 L'Enfant Plaza S.W.
    Washington, D.C. 20024
    (202)-488-4158

NATIONAL SPACE DEVELOPMENT AGENCY (NASDA)
    4-1 Hamamatsu-Cho, 2 Chome
    Minato-Ku, Tokyo 105, JAPAN

SOYUZKARTA
    45 Vologradsij Pr.
    Moscow 109125
    USSR

SPACE CAMP
    Alabama Space and Rocket Center	U.S. SPACE CAMP
    1 Tranquility Base			6225 Vectorspace Blvd
    Huntsville, AL 35805		Titusville FL  32780
    (205)-837-3400			(407)267-3184

    Registration and mailing list are handled through Huntsville -- both
    camps are described in the same brochure.

    Programs offered at Space Camp are:

	Space Camp - one week, youngsters completing grades 4-6
	Space Academy I - one week, grades 7-9
	Aviation Challenge - one week high school program, grades 9-11
	Space Academy II - 8 days, college accredited, grades 10-12
	Adult Program - 3 days (editorial comment: it's great!)
	Teachers Program - 5 days

SPACE COMMERCE CORPORATION (U.S. agent for Soviet launch services)
    504 Pluto Drive		    69th flr, Texas Commerce Tower
    Colorado Springs, CO 80906	    Houston, TX 77002
    (719)-578-5490		    (713)-227-9000

SPACEHAB
    600 Maryland Avenue, SW
    Suite 201 West
    Washington, DC 20004
    (202)-488-3483

SPOT IMAGE CORPORATION
    1857 Preston White Drive,
    Reston, VA 22091
    (FAX) (703)-648-1813    (703)-620-2200

OTHER COMMERCIAL SPACE BUSINESSES

    Vincent Cate maintains a list with addresses and some info for a variety
of companies in space-related businesses. This is mailed out on the
space-investors list he runs (see the "Network Resources" FAQ) and is also
available by anonymous ftp from furmint.nectar.cs.cmu.edu (128.2.209.111) in
/usr/vac/ftp/space-companies.

Why not use the PD C library for reading/writing TIFF files? It took me a
good 20 minutes to start using them in your own app.

Martin

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "face" is an accident of light and shadow.  There are many "faces" in
landforms on Earth; none is artificial (well, excluding Mount Rushmore and
the like...).  There is also a smiley face on Mars, and a Kermit The Frog.

The question of life in a more mundane sense -- bacteria or the like -- is
not quite closed, although the odds are against it, and the most that the
more orthodox exobiologists are hoping for now is fossils.

There are currently no particular plans to do any further searches for life.

Mars Observer, currently approaching Mars, will probably try to get a better
image or two of the "face" at some point.  It's not high priority; nobody
takes it very seriously.  The shadowed half of the face does not look very
face-like, so all it will take is one shot at a different sun angle to ruin
the illusion.

  I found it very interesting that Atlas depended on pressure to
maintain tank geometry....leads me to the question: ? have any 
of the SSTO concepts explored pressurized tankage such that the
launch configuration would be significantly different from the
reentry one?  I have long been facinated by pnumatic structures
as conceived and built by Frei Otto and others, a "ballon" tank
SSTO sounds very clever. 

I am seeking some alternate solutions on how to turn a Postscript Type 1 or
TrueType font outline into polygons that can be subsequently scan converted
by a 3D scanline renderer. 

I have been studying the problem of font conversion for a few years but
have never had the need to implement such a system. Well, I now have the
opportunity to write some font rendering software so I would like to have
some of my questions answered before I jump into the deep end.

The main problem I face is how to use the even/odd or non-winding rules to
turn the outlines into a single outline polygon (my renderer can handle
complex polygons so there is no need to reduce the polygons to simple
polygons). For example, in the letter "O" there are two outlines:

	1) The outside outline which is clockwise (TrueType font)
	2) The inside outline which is counterclockwise.

One common solution used by a number of rendering packages is to simply 
connect the inner outline to the outer outline at the point where the
two outlines are closest. This is equivalent to descibing a "polygon with
holes". The renderer will then make the appropriate hole since the interior
polygon edges are in the opposite direction to the outside edges.

I do not want to use this simplistic system since:

	1) It will not handle all outline fonts properly (it is not a simple
		matter to connect the outer outline to the inner outline for
		some fancy fonts).
	2) It does not properly handle the even/odd or non-winding rules.

From my research over the years the proper solution is to use a trapezoid
decomposition algorithm to scan convert the outlines into trapezoids (as
is done by the Postscript and TrueType font rasterizers). These trapezoidal
polygons can then be easily and properly rendered by the 3D scanline renderer.

My question is: are there any better solutions to turning the outlines into
polgyons other than the trapezoid decomposer? I am not fond of this solution
since it creates excess number of polygons.

Another question, for those in the know: what is the best algorithm to create
bevelled and/or offset curves for font outlines? I have a dozen papers on these
subjects but I can't tell which method is the best to implement.

Thanks for any pointers.

--> Rob Lansdale

Jesus:

Black and white.  A spade is a spade.  There is no hidden
agenda behind this, so stop trying to look for one.   It is an
easy and as straight forward as it reads.

Kent, I am not accusing you of evil things.  Jesus is accusing you.
And it is not only you that He is accusing.  He is accusing everyone.
Me, you and everyone in the world is guilty.  Whether one
sees the light or does not seen the light has nothing to do with 
whether we do evil things.  We do them regardless.  

Jesus uses the word "men".  I am included.  Jesus is not soloing you out.
Jesus is making a general statement about out the sad state of man.
Christians are not immuned from doing evil things.  A Christian 
is just a person in whom the Holy Spirit indwells.  A Christian 
can see the evil he is doing--because his evil has been brought
out into the light.  Jesus is not saying that just because evil has been
exposed, that the Christian will stop doing evil.  If you haven't
seen Jesus's light, your evil deeds simply haven't been
exposed to the His light.  You may shed some light on your
own.  Your human spirit shines at perhaps 1 candela.  But the
Holy Spirit shines at a Megacandela.  The Holy Spirit can
shine light into places inside us where we didn't even know
existed. 

So do you see Jesus's point?  Christians are not perfect.  Nonchristians
are not perfect.  Nonchristians do not want to come into the
Light of Jesus because they will see all the problems in their lives,
and they will not like the sight.  It is an ugly thing to see how far
we have fallen from Jesus's perspective.  Do you think you want to
know how really ignorant you are?  Do you think Brian Kendig wants
to know?  Do you think I want to know?  Ego verses the truth,
which do you choose?

And I watched Koresh too, an imposter who thought he saw the light, 
who made sure that the 19 children burned to death, sadly, as part
of his delusion.  It is even sadder that the people who
died with him chose to die with them, and that ignorance was
their downfall to death. 

And Kent, don't you bury yourself underneath a rock with an
excuse like bringing up Koresh--as if Koresh actually had truth in him.
David Koresh was no light and no excuse for
you to stay away from the real Jesus Christ.  David Koresh, who
claimed to be Jesus, was a fraud.  It was obvious.  David Koresh
was born in America. Jesus was born in Bethlehem.  Koresh wasn't
even a good imposter having missed an obvious point as that.

Jesus warned of such imposters in the end-times.  David
Koresh wasn't anything new to Jesus.  Jesus told us to be
aware of imposters 2000 years ago.  

So the next time an imposter makes a scene and claims to
be Jesus.  Ask the obvious.  Where were you born?  Was your
mother's name Mary?  If the Branch Davidians asked that
simple question, they would have labeled Koresh a liar
right from the start.  The wouldn't have followed Koresh.
They wouldn't have died.  But look what happened.  Their
ignorance cost them their lives.  Their choice to be ignorant
cost them a lot.

Kent, since you studied the Bible under Lutheranism, do you
not remember what tactic Satan used to try to tempt Jesus?  
Did not Satan quote the Bible out of context?  Do you
remember what tactic the serpent of Genesis used to tempt
Eve?  Did he not misquote God?  What Satan used on Eve and succeeded, 
was the same ploy he tried on Jesus.  But in Jesus's case,
Jesus rebuked Satan back with the Bible _in_ context.  It
didn't work with Jesus.  

Does what Satan did to Eve in the Garden and what Satan
tried to do with Jesus in the desert remind you of what
Koresh did to his followers?  Who did Koresh emulate?
Who was Koresh's teacher?  Koresh did to his followers what
Satan did to Eve.  Did not Koresh kill his followersr?  Did
not Satan cause Adam and Eve to die as well?  Did not
the cult followers believe Koresh even though they knew
the real Christ was born in Bethlehem?   Did not Eve
choose to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and
evil despite knowing that it would cause her death?  God
held them all responsible--deceiver and the rebeller.  None 
of them had an excuse.  

Or have different classes of competetors.. and made the total purse $6billion
or $7billion (depending on how many different classes there are, as in auto
racing/motocycle racing and such)..

Your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable
posts. The first I captured was by Ken Arromdee on 19 Feb 1990, on the
subject "Re: atheist too?". That was article #473 here; your question
was article #53766, which is an average of about 48 articles a day for
the last three years. As others have noted, the current posting rate is
such that my kill file is depressing large...... Among the posting I
saved in the early days were articles from the following notables:

An interesting bunch.... I wonder where #2 is?

But he said,
	Yea rather,
	blessed are they
	that hear the word of God,
	and keep it.

The primary problem in human nature is a "fragmentation of being."
Humans are in a state of tension, a tension of opposites. Good and
evil are the most thought provoking polarities that come to mind.

The Bible provides us with many examples of the fragmentation of
being. The warring opposites within us are a product of man's
rebellion against God, which is described so vividly in the pages of
the Scriptures.

Man was created with the order to become a god. Those were the words
of St.  Basil in the fourth century. What he was trying to say was
that God created man to be a partaker of the divine nature. In the
Eastern Orthodox Church, this is called "theosis," or "deification."

One can also say that man was created to be whole, i.e. spirit, soul,
and body operating in unison. The story of Adam and Eve is a picture
of the archetypal humans before obtaining moral consciousness. Theirs
was a harmonious relationship with each other, the world, and the
Creator. That innocent harmony was shattered when they disobeyed God,
their natural wholeness falling apart into two seemingly
irreconcilable halves. Immediately, guilt and fear was manifested in
their lives. They become bound to hardship, toil, and suffering.  This
is symbolized in their exile from the paradisiac state.

The beast in the jungle does not possess moral consciousness. If it
were to receive this self-awareness, the knowledge of good and evil,
its paradisiac state would also be destroyed.

Was it the intention of the Creator to leave man in this state of
innocence all the days of his existence on earth? Or was the gaining
of self-awareness carefully staged by God, who did not desire that His
masterpiece, mankind, be a blissful idiot?

God must have known that, for mankind to achieve any kind of moral
value, he must pass through a confrontation with the opposites. There
is no other way to achieve union with God.

Jesus Christ is the answer to the problem of the warring polarities.
He was the perfectly integrated individual, reconciling the opposites,
and making it possible for us to be integrated, i.e. to become God,
not in His essence, but in His energies.

The opposites is THE Christian problem. The Apostle Paul describes it
with the utmost precision in Romans 7:15-24. And he follows with the
answer to his dilemma in vs 25.

I haven't seen any speculation about it. But, the Salyut KB (Design Bureau) 
was planning a new LH/LOX second stage for the Proton which would boost
payload to LEO from about 21000 to 31500 kg. (Geostationary goes from
2600 kg. (Gals launcher version) to 6000 kg.. This scheme was competing
with the Energia-M last year and I haven't heard which won, except now
I recently read that the Central Specialized KB was working on the 
successor to the Soyuz booster which must be the Energia-M. So the early
results are Energia-M won, but this is a guess, nothing is very clear in 
Russia. I'm sure if Salyut KB gets funds from someone they will continue 
their development. 

The Centaur for the Altas is about 3 meters dia. and the Proton 
is 4 so that's a good fit for their existing upper stage, the Block-D
which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia. I don't know about
launch loads, etc.. but since the Centaur survives Titan launches which
are probably worse than the Proton (those Titan SRB's probably shake things
up pretty good) it seems feasible. EXCEPT, the Centaur is a very fragile
thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now.
Protons are assembled and transported horizontially. Does anyone know 
how much stress in the way of a payload a Centaur could support while
bolted to a Proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track
and erected on the pad?  

They would also need LOX and LH facilities added to the Proton pads 
(unless the new Proton second stage is actually built), and of course
any Centaur support systems and facilities, no doubt imported from the
US at great cost. These systems may viloate US law so there are political
problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the CIS you mention. 

Yes, I do.  A couple of years ago, I did a comparison of the two
products.  Some of this may have changed, but here goes.

As far as a PHIGS+ implementation, Figaro+ is fine.  But, its PHIGS!
Personally, I hate PHIGS because I find it is too low level.  I also
dislike structure editing, which I find impossible, but enough about
PHIGS.

I have found HOOPS to be a system that is full-featured and easy to
use.  They support all of their rendering methods in software when
there is no hardware support, their documentation is good, and they
are easily portable to other systems.

I would be happy to elaborate further if you have more specific
questions. 

For some reason I never saw the original post on this thread, but if you are
looking for fast polygon routines on vga on a PC, you really can't go past
the mode X stuff from Dr Dobbs. This code is all p.domain (as far as I know),
and in the original articles, the routines were all presented as dumb vga
routines, and then optimised to modeX with some interesting discussion along
the way.
If you are interested, I could find out more details of the issues in question,
(I have them at home).

What are the volumes that it speaks besides the fact that he leaves your 
choices up to you?

I definitely agree that it's rather presumptuous for either "side" to give some
psychological reasoning for another's belief.

MAC

--
****************************************************************
                                                    Michael A. Cobb
 "...and I won't raise taxes on the middle     University of Illinois
    class to pay for my programs."                 Champaign-Urbana
          -Bill Clinton 3rd Debate             cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu

Stuff deleted

All five schools of law (to the best of my knowledge) support the
death sentence for apostasy WHEN it is accompanied by open, persistent,
and aggravated hostility to Islam. Otherwise
I agree, there is no legal support for punishment of disbelief.
The Qur'an makes it clear that belief is a matter of conscience. Public
or private disavowal of Islam or conversion to another faith is not
punishable (there are some jurists who have gone against this
trend and insisted that apostasy is punishable (even by death) - but
historically they are the exception.

Cursing and Insulting the Prophets falls under the category of "Shatim".

Make that 20%.  Where did I see that poll recently about the
very religious and adultery?  Was it this newsgroup or alt.atheism
or some other place?

Sure.  Why keep using oil?  A hydrogen/electric economy would likely be
cleaner and more efficient in the long run.  The laws of supply and demand
should get the transition underway before we reach a critical stage of
shortage.

The Centaur is controlled technology..
State Dept will not allow it to be used outside of US. Sorry.

John:

	It not "good netiquette" to quote a complete article :-) NOTHING
PERSONAL, Please! :-)

	This views sadden me too! Don't think that I don't care! Sorry
if it seemed different. It IS serious stuff; but I have a 'sick' sense of
humor though (some say... :-)

Tolerance!

II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel,
and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Isreal and Judah.

(deletion)
 
Straw man. And you brought up leniency.
 
Assuming that misjudgements are not correlated.
 
(Deletion)
 
Has been discussed here. Chapter and verse were cited, I assume that you
weren't looking then.
 
Let's be more exact, do you think it is not in the Quran?. And what would
your consequences be when it it was shown to be in it?
 
I have not claimed that. It is sufficient for the argument when there are
a lot of male dominated societies that qualify as Machistic. Are you going
to say that the situation of women is better in sufficeint areas of the
Orient?
 
You apparently have trouble reading things you don't like. The point was
having sex the way one wishes being a strong desire. Marriage is a red
herring. Tell me about homosexuals, for one. You simply ignore everything
that doesn't fit into the world as you would like to have it.

This might a real wierd idea or maybe not..

I have seen where people have blown up ballons then sprayed material into them
that then drys and makes hard walls...

Why not do the same thing for a space station..

Fly up the docking rings and baloon materials and such, blow up the baloons,
spin then around (I know a problem in micro gravity) let them dry/cure/harden?
and cut a hole for the docking/attaching ring and bingo a space station..

Of course the ballons would have to be foil covered or someother radiation
protective covering/heat shield(?) and the material used to make the wals would
have to meet the out gasing and other specs or atleast the paint/covering of
the inner wall would have to be human safe.. Maybe a special congrete or maybe
the same material as makes caplets but with some changes (saw where someone
instea dof water put beer in the caplet mixture, got a mix that was just as
strong as congret but easier to carry around and such..)

Sorry for any spelling errors, I missed school today.. (grin)..

Why musta  space station be so difficult?? why must we have girders? why be
confined to earth based ideas, lets think new ideas, after all space is not
earth, why be limited by earth based ideas??

****************************   SPHINX   ***************************

	Sphinx is a user-friendly, state-of-the-art image processing
and analysis package that runs across a spectrum of high performance 
computer platforms operating UNIX and the X-Window System.

	It was created to meet to the daily research needs of scientists 
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		   Intuitive Graphic Interface

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	Using smart read/write functions, Sphinx allows you to easily open
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	Other Capabilities Sphinx also performs image animation, external 
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   A TEST VERSION OF SPHINX IS AVAILABLE AT loasil.citilille.fr
   (134.206.50.4) anonymous (bin : cd SPHINX : get ALL_SPHINX.tar.Z)

   IN THE TEST VERSION THE OUTPUT FILES ARE DISABLE. HOWEVER THE
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   AND YOU WILL RECEIVE NEWS ABOUT THE PACKAGE EVOLUTION.

Nope, I haven't seen the film, but Taylor's biography ("The Curve of 
Binding Energy") contains a short section on Orion and this test flight.
Apparently it was quite impressi, and got von Braun very excited.

In Real Life:Mike Williams     | Perpetual Grad Student
e-mail      :mrw9e@virginia.edu|   - It's not just a job, it's an indenture

I plan to post a summary of responses to this as soon as I have working
code, which I will also include.  The intersection of 3 planes method
looks best, but my implementation based on a short article in 
Graphics Gems I doesn't work.  I may be misinterpreting, of course.

I had avoided the simultaneous solution of the plane equations in favor
of dot and cross products, but the former may actually be better.  In either
case a matrix determinant needs to be computed (implicitly in the solution
of linear equations).

To get the planes, I was taking the midpoint of the line from, say,
P1 to P2, and setting the normal as the "normalized" vector from P1 to P2.
These just plugged into the formula in Graphics Gems.  HOwever, the resulting
center point is only occasionally equidistant from all 4 of my test points
(for different tests).  My matrix/vector math is very rusty, but it looks like
I need to verify the formula, or use the simultaneous equation solution, which
will require bringing in another routine I don't have (but should be easy to
find).

Another method is to first find the center of the circle defined by 2 sets
of 3 points, and intersecting the normals from there.  This would also define
the circle center.  However, small numerical imprecisions would make the
lines not intersect.  Supposedly 3 planes HAVE to intersect in a unique
point if they are not parallel.

Ed

Thanks to all who answered so far.

First off: Thanks to all who have filled me in on the existence of the
68070. I assumed rashly that the particular number would be reserved for
further enhancements to the Motorola line, rather than meted out to
another company. Ah, well, I guess that's what I get when I assume the
computer industry will operate in a logical manner! ;-)

a
spot

Version 1.5 of Quicktime is, as has been stated, the current version of
the software. The older version is 1.0, and 1.6 is on the horizon in the
not too distant future.

back quite
25x by
that it
he

Quicktime does a much better job of playing back movies at size than it
does playing back resized movies. Apparently the process of expanding
each frame's image and dithering the resultant bitmap to the appropriate
bit depth is pretty processor-intensive. There are optimizers that work
pretty well for showing movies at double size, but if you drop to 1.9x
size or increase to 2.1x size, performance suffers dramatically.

(don't know
Quicktime

He lied. :-) Quicktime is very CPU dependent. He was probably confused by
the fact that QT is locked to an internal timecode, and will play in the
same amount of time on any machine. However, an LC will drop frames in
order to keep the sound and video synced up.

The Centris and Quadras have similar CPUs and will thus boast similar
performance, though the Quadras will be a bit faster due to marginally
faster clock speeds and somewhat different architecture.

having
was

I expect that the version of the Quicktime software you saw was 1.0 -- I
was using was 1.5. One of the new codecs in v1.5 allows video at nearly
twice the size and the same frame rate as what version 1.0 could handle.
The Centris 650 I saw was a plain-vanilla, with the exception of the nice
speakers that were playing the sound, and the software was Movie Player,
the QT player Apple includes with the software.

No, Mathew is proposing a public defence mechanism, not treating the
electronic device as an impropriety on the wearer. What he is saying is that
the next step beyond what you propose is the permanent bugging of potential
criminals.  This may not, on the surface, sound like a bad thing, but who
defines what a potential criminal is? If the government of the day decides
that being a member of an opposition party makes you a potential criminal
then openly defying the government becomes a lethal practice, this is not
conducive to a free society.

Mathew is saying that implanting electronic surveillance devices upon people
is an impropriety upon that person, regardless of what type of crime or
what chance of recidivism there is. Basically you see the criminal justice
system as a punishment for the offender and possibly, therefore, a deterrant
to future offenders. Mathew sees it, most probably, as a means of
rehabilitation for the offender. So he was being cynical at you, okay?

 How about this description: "An object that is, at one time, both a
Euclidean square and a Euclidean circle"? I hold that no object satisfying
this description could exist. The description is inconsistent, and hence
describes an object that could not exist.
 Now, suppose someone pointed to a bicycle, and said, "That object is,
at one time, both a Euclidean square and a Euclidean circle." This does
not mean that the bicycle does not exist, it measn that the description
was incorrectly applied.
 
 The atheist says, "The descriptions of God that I have been presented with
are contradictory, and hence describe something that cannot exist."
 Now, your position (so far as I can gather) is that God exists, but the
descriptions atheists have been presented with are simply bad descriptions
of It.
 This is roughly analogous to someone who has never seen a bicycle, and,
when they ask for a description from people who claim to have seen one,
are told that it is a "Euclidean circle-square". Can they be blamed for
doubting rather strongly that this 'bicycle' exists at all?

 No kidding. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles               ingles@engin.umich.edu

For the last time, Bobby. Lack of belief in YOUR god does NOT imply
atheism. Just because some moslems aren't moral does not mean they don't
believe in a god named Allah, although their Allah may not do the things
your Allah does. If a moslem says he/she believes that a god exists, he/she
is a theist (though maybe not a TRUE follower of islam).

Jerk.

  I've talked with Mark and he faxed some literature, though it wasn't very helpful-
  just a list of routine names: _BSplineSurface, _DrawString3D... 241 names.
  There was a Product Info sheet that explained some of the package capabilities.
  I also found a review in April/May '92 MacTutor.

Well, there is a fair amount of evidence floating around that indicates
that OTO has been around since at least the late 1800s, long before
Crowley ever heard of it, how long has AMORC been around? (yes, I know
that they claim to have existed as an organization clear into prehistory,
but I doubt that they have any organizational paperwork
as a non-profit that can be carbon-dated to 20,000 BC)
                                             A.Lizard

I require BGI drivers for Super VGA Displays and Super XVGA Displays. Does 
anyone know where I could obtain the relevant drivers ? (FTP sites ??)

	Regards

: >EVER HEAR OF
: >BAPTISM AT BIRTH?  If that isn't preying on the young, I don't know what
: >is...
: >
: RB>   
: RB>   No, that's praying on the young.  Preying on the young comes
: RB>   later, when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the
: RB>   priest really wears under that chasible.

Does this statement further the atheist cause in some way, surely it's
not intended as wit ...

Why are only those people in favor of the system to blame.  If society
accepts such a system, then each member of society is to blame when
an innocent person gets executed.  Those that are not in favor should
work to convince others.

And, most members of our society have accepted the blame--they've considered
the risk to be acceptable.  Similarly, every person who drives must accept
the blame for fatal traffic accidents.  This is something that is surely
going to happen when so many people are driving.  It is all a question of
what risk is acceptable.  It is much more likely that an innocent person
will be killed driving than it is that one will be executed.

"Finally, brethern, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is
right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute,
if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your
mind dwell on these things."  Phil. 4:8.

====
If that were true, I'd go for it.. I have a few friends who we could pool our
resources and do it.. Maybe make it a prize kind of liek the "Solar Car Race"
in Australia..
Anybody game for a contest!

Do you consider Neo-Nazis and white supremists to be Christian?  I'd hardly
classify them as Christian.  Do they follow the teachings of Christ?  Love
one another.  Love your neighbour as yourself.  Love your enemies.  Is Jesus
Christ their Lord and Saviour?  By the persecution of Jews, they are violating
all the precepts of what Christ died for.  They are in direct violation of
the teachings of Christ.  Even Jesus who was crucified by the Jewish leaders
of that time, loved His enemies by asking the Father for forgiveness of their
sins.  I am a Christian and I bear no animosity towards Jews or any one else.
The enemy is Satan, not our fellow man.

I am one of those people who always willl have unlimited stores of unfounded
respect for people who have been on newsgroups/mailing lists longer than I
have, so you certainly have my sympathy Tom.  I have only been semi-regularly
posting (it is TOUGHto keep up) since this February, but I have been reading
and following the threads since last August: my school's newsreader was down
for months and our incompetent computing services never bothered to find a new
feed site, so it wasn't accepting outgoing postings.  I don't think anyone
keeps track of where other posters go: it's that old love 'em and leave 'em
Internet for you again...

No, they fold on the dotted line.  Look at pictures of carriers with loads of
a/c on the deck, wings all neatly folded.

Okay all my friends are bitching at me that the map I made in Appsoft Draw
can't be displayed in "xv"... I checked... It's true, at least with version
1.0.  My readers on the NeXT have very little trouble on it (Preview messes
up the .eps, but does fine with the TIFF and ImageViewer0.9a behaves with
flying colors except it doesn't convert worth *&^^% ;-) )

  Please is there any way I can convert this .drw from Appsoft 1.0 on the NeXT
to something more reasonable like .gif?  I have access to a sun4 and NeXTstep
3.0 systems.  any good reliable conversion programs would be helpful... please
email, I'll post responses if anyone wants me to... please email that to.

Yes I used alphachannel... (god i could choke steve jobs right now ;-) )

Yes i know how to archie, but tell me what to archie for ;-)

Also is there a way to convert to .ps plain format? ImageViiewer0.9 turns
out nothing recognizable....

     terrychay

---
small editorial

-rw-r--r--  1 tychay   2908404 Apr 18 08:03 Undernet.tiff
-rw-r--r--  1 tychay     73525 Apr 18 08:03 Undernet.tiff.Z

Yeah - they also gave it their "Editor's Choice" in the run-down of
graphics accelerators they tested in the previous issue, which is why
I bought (and then returned) mine.  The only conclusion I can come up with
is that PC Magazine has wildly different ways on determining the worthiness
of a video card than I do.

re: majority of users not readding from floppy.
Well, how about those of us who have 1400-picture CD-ROMS and would like to use
CVIEW because it is fast and it works well, but can't because the moron lacked
the foresight to create the temp file in the program's path, not the current
didrectory?

Define perfect then.
 
Take your foot out of your mouth, I wondered about that already when I
was a Catholic Christian. The fact that the contradiction is unresolvable
is one of the reasons why I am an atheist.
 
Believe me, I believed similar sentences for a long time. But that shows
the power of religion and not anything about its claims.
 
It follows from a definition of evil as ordinarily used. Letting evil
happen or allowing evil to take place, in this place even causing evil,
is another evil.
 
The omniscient attribute of god will know what the creatures will do even
before the omnipotent has created them. There is no choice left. All is known,
the course of events is fixed.
 
Not even for the omniscient itself, to extend an argument by James Tims.
 
And when I am not omnipotent, how can I have free will? You have said
something about choices and the scenario gives them. Therefore we have
what you define as free will.
 
Imagine the following. I can do good to other beings, but I cannot harm them.
Easily implemented by making everyone appreciate being the object of good
deeds, but don't make them long for them, so they can not feel the absence
of good as evil.
 
But whose case am I arguing? It is conceivable, so the omnipotent can do it.
Or it would not be omnipotent. If you want logically consistent as well, you
have to give up the pet idea of an omnipotent first.
 
That the bible describes an omniscient and omnipotent god destroys
the credibility of the bible, nothing less.

----- News saved at 23 Apr 93 22:22:40 GMT
  
Well, I'm working on it, but getting a little impatient. So far, 
I've made it through Egyptian, Chinese, and Greek cultures, and
up through the Rennaisance. But so far, these insights just don't 
seem to be gelling. Perhaps it's in an appendix somewhere.

 People with advanced science degrees use state of the art equipment
and spend millions of dollars to simulate tornadoes. But tornadoes
do not require intelligence to exist.
 Not only that, the equipment needed is not really 'state of the art.'
To study the *products*, yes, but not to generate them.

 Oh, I will. :->

Forwarded from the Mars Observer Project

                       MARS OBSERVER STATUS REPORT
                             April 23, 1993
                              10:00 AM PDT

Flight Sequence C8 is active, the Spacecraft subsystems and instrument
payload performing well in Array Normal Spin and outer cruise
configuration, with uplink and downlink via the High Gain Antenna; uplink
at 125 bps, downlink at the 2 K Engineering data rate.

As a result of the spacecraft entering Contingency Mode on April 9, all
payload instruments were automatically powered off by on-board fault
protection software.  Gamma Ray Spectrometer Random Access Memory
was successfully reloaded on Monday, April 19.  To prepare for
Magnetometer Calibrations which were rescheduled for execution in Flight
Sequence C9 on Tuesday and Wednesday of next week, a reload of Payload
Data System Random Access Memory will take place this morning
beginning at 10:30 AM.

Over this weekend, the Flight Team will send real-time commands to
perform Differential One-Way Ranging to obtain additional data for
analysis by the Navigation Team.  Radio Science Ultra Stable Oscillator
testing will take place on Monday .

The Flight Sequence C9 uplink will occur on Sunday, April 25, with
activation at Midnight, Monday evening April 26.  C9 has been modified to
include Magnetometer Calibrations which could not be performed in C8 due
to Contingency Mode entry on April 9.  These Magnetometer instrument
calibrations will allow the instrument team to better characterize the
spacecraft-generated magnetic field and its effect on their instrument.
This information is critical to Martian magnetic field measurements
which occur during approach and mapping phases. MAG Cals will require
the sequence to command the spacecraft out of Array Normal Spin state
and perform slew and roll maneuvers to provide the MAG team data points
in varying spacecraft attitudes and orientations.

It sounds to me like it's just SCREAMING OUT for parody.  Give a copy to your
friendly neighbourhood SubGenius preacher; with luck, he'll run it through the
mental mincer and hand you back an outrageously offensive and gut-bustingly
funny parody you can paste over the originals.

I can see it now:

                               The Stool Scroll
         Thoughts on Religion, Spirituality, and Matters of the Colon

                       (You can use this text to wipe)

Did I claim that there was an absolute morality, or just an objective one?

We have been shipping for over one year the Adobe Display PostScript (DPS)
on Silicon Graphics workstations, file servers, and supercomputers.
The Adobe Illustrator 3.5 for Silicon Graphics machines was released
last February.  Adobe and SGI announced last October that Photoshop
will be available on SGI systems in 1993.  Initial release will support 
24-bit color graphics.

G'day all,

Can anybody point me at a utility which will read/convert/crop/whatnot/
display HDF image files ? I've had a look at the HDF stuff under NCSA 
and it must take an award for odd directory structure, strange storage
approaches and minimalist documentation :-)

Part of the problem is that I want to look at large (5MB+) HDF files and
crop out a section. Ideally I would like a hdftoppm type of utility, from
which I can then use the PBMplus stuff quite merrily. I can convert the cropped
part into another format for viewing/animation.

Otherwise, can someone please explain how to set up the NCSA Visualisation S/W
for HDF (3.2.r5 or 3.3beta) and do the above cropping/etc. This is for
Suns with SunOS 4.1.2.

Any help GREATLY appreciated. Ta muchly !

Cheers,
	Markus

-- 
Markus Buchhorn, Parallel Computing Research Facility
email = markus@octavia.anu.edu.au
Australian National University, Canberra, 0200 , Australia.
[International = +61 6, Australia = 06] [Phone = 2492930, Fax = 2490747]

ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE, IS GRAVITY!!!

  This paper BOTH describes how heavenly bodys can be stationary, 
ether sucking structures, AND why we observe "orbital" motion!!

  Ether, the theoretical propogation media of electro-magnetic 
waves, was concluded not to exist, based on the results of the 
Michelson-Moreley experiment conducted a century ago. 

  I propose that those conclusions are flawed, based on the fact 
that the experiment was designed to look for a flow parallel to the 
earth's surface, not perpindicular. (Due to the prevailing assumption 
that the earth traveled through the ether as a ball through the wind)

  The reversal of the that conclusion, a pivotal keystone in the 
development of modern scientific thought, could have ramifications 
of BIBLICAL proportions through out the WORLD!!

  REMEMBER: Einstien said Imagination is greater than knowledge!!

1
  I dream like this: ether based reality
 
  The ether is like a fluid out of phase with our reality. Creations 
start as a lattice placed into the ether. Given a spin, the lattices
both drag the fluid, like a margarita blender, and ingest it, 
converting it, distilling localized mass, time and energy. 
(non-spinning lattice = "dark matter")

  The earth isn't exactly spinning, around the sun. Picture an image 
of a galaxy; we haven't any videos of them spinning. Picture us 
being stationary, and the sun's image being dragged across the sky by 
the spinning ether field. (Picture an onion, each layer of which is 
spinning a little faster than the next. A thread shot at the inner 
kernel would be stretched diagonally sideways, its head being in a 
faster shell than its tail, until it finally intersected the ground 
of the inner kernel, its direction vector being straight down, but 
its "foot print" being a line, not a point. [sunrise, sunset])
  
  The moon isn't exactly orbiting us. It is a parasite, (non self 
spin sustaining ) being dragged in the earth's ether field, which is 
itself in the sun's much more powerful field. Our seasons are the 
wobble of earth's axis, like a top slowing down. The "orbit" of the
earth around the sun is all of the stars' images being dragged around
by the sun's ether feild.

  The earth, moon and sun are about the same size and "distance" 
apart. Its just that the time between them varies greatly, because 
the "path" is not the same. The moon's lattice in the ether is like 
sticking a fork in a plate of spaghetti and giving the plate a half 
turn. The sun's lattice has so much spin that its like the fork has 
got the whole plate of noodles wound up. The piece of light going to 
the moon can slide down the spaghetti and maybe make a "j" hook at 
the end. The piece of light going to the sun has to go around the 
whole plate, like a needle in a record, before it gets there. 

  With a pencil, compass, and rule, draw a diagram of how the moon 
can be about as big as "earth's" shadow upon it, and at other times 
totally eclipse the sun. Look in the sky. except for your Knowledge, 
would you guess that they are about the same size, just because they 
look about the same size?

   O .     - -                 E     O   O   O   S
 E       /     \            
    M    |      |      OR                M    
         \ _ _ /                         
       S                           
       
  The full moon, quarter moon etc. is the difference between rate
of ether spins. What we are looking at is a rotating "turntable view" 
of the moon, only half of which is facing the sun. ( I've seen a 
half moon within about 120 degrees (of sky) of the sun, during the 
day. Try and draw that "earth shadow.") Its only the moon's image 
which appears to orbit us. No matter where it is, the light part is 
the part facing the sun, and the dark part is the half facing away 
from the sun, even when it appears to be behind us.

  "Light-Years" between galaxies is a misnomer. The distance is 
closer to zero, as time and matter are characteristics of this phase 
of reality, which dissipates outward with each layer of the onion. 
(defining edge = 0 ether spin) What we are seeing could be 
essentially happening now. The "piece" of light may have experienced 
many years, but the trip could be very quick, our time.

  To time travel or warp space I might consider learning to 
de-spin myself. (phase out my mass) Good luck trying to design 
a propulsion system to drag around a space-time locality. (its like 
trying to move a balloon by shooting a squirt gun from within)

  To find out about all of this, I recommend studying history. I'd 
look in the book of life. (or holy grail etc.) Brain waves just 
might carry decipherable data. I'd start looking on some part of the 
spectra said to be unusable, due to all the background noise. (4+ 
billion humans?) I'd totally isolate myself, record me thinking DOG 
backwards, and learn to read what I got. (Microsoft Holy Grail card 
for Pentium!)

  Next, concluding that my thoughts were recorded on a non time-bound 
media, the ether, and that it is I who move forward (in time). I 
would try to temporarily locally reverse the flow, (of time, which 
I'd start looking for as flowing opposite magnetism, pole to pole. 
[Why not?]) perhaps by passing a LARGE, FLAT DC current through a 
two foot diameter. coil or choke or something, and seeing what I 
could get with my machine's receiver next to it.  

  If you don't think you'll live to see it, consider this: QUIT 
PUTTING THE REPRODUCTIVE KEYS OF OTHER LIFE IN YOUR BODY! All of 
life's data could be written on the wind, (ether) not just our 
thoughts. DNA could be a little receiver or file access code. By 
eating SEEDS, we could be jamming our reception, or receiving plant 
instructions. Try eating seed bearing fruit. Maybe those Greek or 
biblical guys did live hundreds of years. I'm curios to see what 
they did and ate. Don't worry if your hair stops growing. (Maybe we 
don't need to eat at all, the cosmos are formed from nothing, and 
that is creating matter! I only need enough to bounce around. Where 
did the household concept 'immortal' come from? Wheat is a weed, it 
is programmed to pull from the soil, reproduce like hell, and then 
die)

  Warning about writing to the past:
I had a little dream of being in a world, in the near parallel 
future, lying along a path of history which we have diverged from. 
There were; twelve telepathic, glowing beings, who looked like an 
Oscar award and who had always been, a dark one who looked like us, 
and then myself. The dark one was in the process of making the 
others into gods, (he had to teach them what that meant) by 
"advising" them in their past. Basically, he manipulated them into 
reproducing, and raising their children on his seed. He said that 
the little ones who looked different were a sub-species, meant to 
provide service. He carefully combed through history, rewriting it 
in his favor, pulling like a weed anything that compromised his 
control. He enticed recruits by sending them his visions, saying 
that there was immortality at the end of the road for only twelve 
souls: kill or be killed. The amount of control he could exert was 
finite, though, as at every change he made, a void would appear in 
our reality. The universe one day ended 100 meters from us: it 
seemed odd, but we couldn't remember how else it should be. Then 
some of the twelve were no more. Finally, when he could prune no 
more, and reality stopped just beyond his fingertips, he stepped 
through his portal to the past, to bask, over and over, in all that 
he had created. I made a few more changes, and lost my body, 
existing only on the wind. 

  MORAL: Its very possible to eliminate from your reality the souls 
whose will's are not in harmony with yours (Golden Rule - treat 
others as you wish to be treated) I.E., you could end up along a 
lonely thread of time with murderers or flowery brown-nosers for 
playmates. (its not eternal, there's more than one way back) 

 Accepting rides to the past:
Once here, the one who looks like us sells rides, he can make you a 
Prince, or a Queen, or you can live as a god in ancient Greece. Go 
ahead, repeat the third grade as often as you like, Adam henry. 
I Hope you like inspecting your socks. Careful though, if he likes 
your work, but thinks you're getting wise, he can direct you to cross 
paths with your old self, and you'll vanish as you rewrite your own 
course of history, none the wiser.

  As we pass the point along the parallel line where he stepped 
back in time, his hierarchy will lose its direction. He can still 
make changes while he's here, its just that that is work, and with 
every 'adjustment', this becomes less the world he cultivated, which 
loosens his grip, and his organization is suddenly one branch less. 
But he can't see the change. The basic nature of man is good. He had 
to apply his hand to achieve his world. As he now tightens his hand 
to retain what he built, the more sand slips through his fingers. 

  How about public computer access to the I.R.S. ? Its our country, 
our money, and they're spending it on us, RIGHT? Imagine this: 
Washington marks the next cost at 8, IRS collects 10, gives 5 to 
congress, and just absolutely buries 5. Congress borrows 2. The banks 
are making, what, a 30% margin (interest) on our government? Big 
corporations are ecstatic if they can do a 10% margin. What do the 
banks do with it? Hold some on a carrot to the world, sure, but 
mostly, bury it. WHY? Food production is 2% GNP?, construction 6% ? 14 
hours to build your auto?  The people are spending all of their time 
to buy back a tenth of what they produce. Have we been deceived? If 
we are more efficient, why is it getting harder to get by? What if 
the point is just to keep the people busy making widgets? 

  In that other reality, I shouted to the twelve, "its chaos!" They 
said, "no, its order." He defined chaos as that which is he was not 
able to control.

  Rain forest: The problem could be that all the water in its canopy 
would hide the  location of an indigenous people who have no 
language. (telepathic; and 'vanishing' the closest knowledge of death)
(think of the spine as a transceiver, if it is on the ground and 
pointed up, you can locate it from above) These people are probably 
naive as children, but very, very tough to kill. Also, They should 
be able to tell you stories about the dark one that I talk about. 
They can hear him. I think that Ham and world band radio old timers 
might have a story to tell on this. These people would be on a 
different frequency than us as they aren't eating seeds.

  Famine relief: When I make my diet almost all whole wheat, I get a 
huge belly, lose muscle mass, sleep A LOT, and get sick. When I eat 
only fresh fruit, I get more energy, a Hollywood-flat belly, and 
need a lot less sleep.

  UN. Peace Keeping; There is fighting and killing all over. The 
troops go in when there is no bread on the shelf. (its OK to kill 
each other, just make sure there is enough to eat.)

  Somalia: What is disturbing is energetic, gun carrying, three foot 
tall sixteen year-olds, who eat nothing but some roots that they 
suck on. It is not so much that their growth is stunted, it is that 
they aren't dying at a rate of 50 of 60 years per life. 

  Women with children, Babes in arms: Historical references to women 
and children as a single unit could mean that infants were not cut 
from the umbilical cord. (and hence, were not breast fed) I think 
that there may be some very interesting results to this, such as 
mother-child telepathy, and blue blooded infants. There are examples 
of this practice in the aquatic mammal kingdom to investigate.

  That guy is the master of illusion, and the ultimate liar. He 
tells it first, and then just follows the thread of time in which 
the people are willing to buy it. (in which he can make it so) He'll 
play a poker face up until he thinks he's cornered, and then he'll 
whine, beg and grovel. All it means to him is that you're willing to 
live on the ground work that he has laid, that is, that he was 
right, and he didn't over play his hand, and he won't need to go 
back and try another thread of time. You have ultimate control over 
your destiny, just don't live along a path that leads to a reality 
in which you don't want to be a part of. 

 Ah, now here is the core question. Let me suggest a scenario.

 We will grant that a God exists, and uses revelation to communicate
with humans. (Said revelation taking the form (paraphrased from your
own words) 'This infinitely powerful deity grabs some poor schmuck,
makes him take dictation, and then hides away for a few hundred years'.)
 Now, there exists a human who has not personally experienced a
revelation. This person observes that not only do these revelations seem
to contain elements that contradict rather strongly aspects of the
observed world (which is all this person has ever seen), but there are
many mutually contradictory claims of revelation.

 Now, based on this, can this person be blamed for concluding, absent
a personal revelation of their own, that there is almost certainly
nothing to this 'revelation' thing?

 Absent this better language, and absent observations in support of the
claims of revelation, can one be blamed for doubting the whole thing?

 Here is what I am driving at: I have thought a long time about this. I
have come to the honest conclusion that if there is a deity, it is
nothing like the ones proposed by any religion that I am familiar with.
 Now, if there does happen to be, say, a Christian God, will I be held
accountable for such an honest mistake?

In this era of AIDS, isn't someone's fucking *everyone's* interest?  (semi
:-))

I propose "We have no motto."

Recently in the glorious state of Maryland (the only state whose state song
refers to Abraham Lincoln as a tyrant), people have gotten all wound up over
the state motto (which we inherited from the Calverts):

    "Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine"

which, if you read Italian, says,

    "Manly deeds, womanly words"

or something to that effect.  In the state which not so long ago had four
women out of seven representatives, this represents a problem.  The official
solution was to change the translation, so now it means:

    "Strong deeds, gentle words"

My personal suggestion was changing it to "walk softly and carry a big
stick."

I need some help.  We are upgrading our animation/video editing stand. We
are looking into the different type of setups for A/B roll and a cuts only
station.  We would like this to be controlled by a computer ( brand doesnt matter but maybe MAC, or AMIGA).  Low end to high end system setups would be very
helpful. If you have a system or use a system that might be of use, could you
mail me your system requirements, what it is used for, and all the hardware and
software that will be necessary to set the system up.  If you need more 
info, you  can mail me at   eylerken@u.washington.edu

thanks in advance.

That's the craziest thing I ever heard.   Are you serious?

	"it doesn't take much work to be moral?"

Really?   And that's why people discuss morality on a daily basis?
Because it's a kind of evolutionary hangover, like your little toe?

This must be some novel use of the phrase "based on" with which I
am not sufficiently familiar.    What do you mean by "based on" and 
what is the significance of it for your argument?

Well, we can.   What would you like to know about my particular moral
beliefs?

If you raise a topic I've never considered, I'll be quite happy to 
invent a moral belief out of thin air.

I think Mark was talking about making it available to people who didn't
have email in the first place.

If anybody in the Boston area wants a sci.space feed by honest-to-gosh UUCP
(no weird offline malreaders), let me know.  I'll also hand out logins to
anyone who wants one, especially the Boston Chapter of NSS (which I keep forgetting
to re-attend).

I've just read Richard Langley's latest "Navstar GPS Constellation Status".

It states that the latest satellite was placed in Orbit Plane Position C-3.
There is already one satellite in that position. I know that it's almost
ten years since that satellite was launched but it's still in operation so
why not use it until it goes off?

Why not instead place the new satellite at B-4 since that position is empty
and by this measure have an almost complete GPS-constellation
(23 out of 24)?

/Thomas
================================================================================
Ericsson Telecom, Stockholm, Sweden

Gamma Ray Bursts (GRBs) are seen coming equally from all directions.
However, given the number of bright ones, there are too few faint
ones to be consistent with being equally dense for as far
as we can see--it is as if they are all contained within
a finite sphere (or a sphere with fuzzy edges) with us at the
center.  (These measurements are statistical, and you can
always hide a sufficiently small number of a different
type of GRB with a different origin in the data.  I am assuming
that there is only one population of GRBs).

The data indicates that we are less than 10% of the radius of the center
of the distribution.  The only things the Earth is at the exact center
of are the Solar system (at the scale of the Oort cloud of comets
way beyond Pluto) and the Universe.  Cosmological theories, placing
GRBs throughout the Universe, require supernova-type energies to
be released over a timescale of milliseconds.  Oort cloud models
tend to be silly, even by the standards of astrophysics.

If GRBs were Galactic (i.e. distributed through the Milky Way Galaxy)
you would expect them to be either concentrated in the plane of
the Galaxy (for a 'disk' population), or towards the Galactic center
(for a spherical 'halo' population).  We don't see this, so if they
are Galactic, they must be in a halo at least 250,000 light years in
radius, and we would probably start to see GRBs from the Andromeda
Galaxy (assuming that it has a similar halo.)  For comparison, the
Earth is 25,000 light-years from the center of the Galaxy.

The aren't concentrated in the known spacelanes, and we don't
see many coming from Zeta Reticuli and Tau Ceti.

There are more than 130 GRB different models in the refereed literature.
Right now, the theorists have a sort of unofficial moratorium
on new models until new observational evidence comes in.

Is the distinction important?

Well, our moral system seems to mimic the natural one, in a number of ways.

I don't know.  What is wrong?  Is it possible for humans to survive for
a long time in the wild?  Yes, it's possible, but it is difficult.  Humans
are a social animal, and that is a cause of our success.

Isn't it?  Why don't you think so?

No.  As noted earlier, lack of mating (such as abstinence or homosexuality)
isn't really destructive to the system.  It is a worst neutral.

Again, the mating practices are something to be reexamined...

In response to: Whitten@Fwva.Saic.Com (David Whitten):

And you responded:

Of course.  The feast WAS the Seder, and the accounts of it are very clear
on this point.

The difference is the connection between the bread and wine and the body
and blood of god.  This is an old association of the Tammuz/Osiris/Mithras
line, and not really related to Judaism.  In any case, I didn't really
intend to argue the point.  I saw a possible association and pointed it
out, but I haven't the foggiest notion what really happened.

YES! Give me his name I would greatly appreciate it.

Rich

I assume you are posting to encourage comments - how much history has
Tony Campello read?  Not much it seems. 

It is good to hear that there are a few reasonable Christians about.
If only those christian "scientists" would take note.

(In Australia there is a very strong movement, a bunch of christian 
scientists who believe that every single event in the bible is exactly
true, and that there is a rational explanation for it all that can be justified
by using the laws of physics.  For example, there are a few chaps who are 
trying to prove that the age of the universe is 6000 years old, and that the
error in conventional calculations is the result of the fact that the speed 
light has been rapidly decaying over the years, and this has not been 
accounted for. :-] )

Or (of course), that he never existed, and the bible was a story, and was never 
intended to become a manifesto for a billion people.  Did Tony follow that one
up?

Millions of people have "died for a lie".  This  point is difficult to 
substantiate since it is not well defined (a great many religious arguments
work in that way), but consider the many Aztec warriors who sacrificed 
themselves to their gods in the belief that this act would bring them victory
of the Spanish invaders.  The list is endless.  The Aztecs lost, BTW.

That is perfectly reasonable, but it is not grounds for me (or anyone)
to become a christian.  More to the point, it does not add weight to
the claim that Jesus was the "real thing".

Have you ever seen a documentary about the rise of Nazi Germany?  More to the
point, did Tony mention this?  One could hardly call Werner Heisenberg and his
many colleagues  fools, or  illogical men, their support of Hitler was based 
(I presume) upon an emotional issue rather than a rational agreement with 
his principles.  Obviously my argument is invalid if Tony thought that Hitler
was sane....

Hmmm.... I don't think his arguments warrant the use of a "Therefore..."

This is (unfortunately) what alot of religious discussions I have had with
people result in - quoting the bible.  The only reasonable way I think
people can look at the bible is to treat the stories as some sort of
metaphorical representation of the messages that the authors were trying to
present.  If someone tries to interpret parts of the bible literally, he or
she will end up in all sorts of shit.   

Tony's argument would be perfectly reasonable for people who believe
the events described in the bible took place, but to convince someone, 
who thinks the bible is total fiction, that Jesus is real by quoting the
book is totally pointless.  For example, in mathematics you cannot say "a is
equal to b because a is equal to b".

That would possibly explain why there have so many people being killed 
in religious wars, and why there are hundreds of different versions all
claiming to be correct.  

It 

I think if you posted this part to alt.religion you would get more flames
than here :-).  I have never really understood why the emotional sentiments
of a stranger should be of interest to other people. 

Someone famous said that there two evils in life, polititians and churchs, one
rules by fear of the living, the other by fear of the dead.  If I am pressed I
could probably find the exact quotation.

Hi,

I'm interested in writing a program to generate a SIRD picture, you know
the stereogram where you cross your eyes and the picture becomes 3D.

Does anyone have one or know where I can get one?

Please e-mail to steveq@sndcrft.DIALix.oz.au with any replies.

Many thanks for your help.

The majority of those who can open their mouths in public perhaps.
There seems quite alot of incentive for the British to have control
of NI, like using the North Channel and Irish Sea as a waste dump (I was
appalled at the dumping I saw in the harbor in Belfast). It is my
understanding that quite alot of radioactivity enters the water --
it'd be quite a problem if NI got its independence from Britain and
then stopped accepting the waste. Are you suggesting that British
industry isn't making profit off the situation as well?

Yes, there are serveral programs which can convert font files (eq the Borland
fonts) to objects consisting of spheres, cones etc. 
I've used a program (forgot its name/place, but i can look for it) which
converted these Borland fonts to three different raytracers. Vivid, POV and
Polyray (which i like more (more flexibel/faster/use of expressions etc).
The program has a lot nice features.
So if interested give me a mail.

  I answer from the position that we would indeed place these people
  in prison for life.

  That depends not only on their predisposition towards murder, but
  also in their success rate at escape and therefore their ability
  to commit the same crimes again.

  In other words, if lifetime imprisonment doesn't work, perhaps
  it's not because we're not executing these people, but because
  we're not being careful enough about how we lock them up.

I think the passage you're looking for is the following.

Matthew 5:17    "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the 
prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 
Matthew 5:18   For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, 
not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 
Matthew 5:19   Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments 
and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he 
who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of 
heaven. 
Matthew 5:20   For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of 
the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 

There are several problems with this.  The most serious is that the
Law was regarded by Jews at the time (and now) as binding on Jews, but
not on Gentiles.  There are rules that were binding on all human
beings (the so-called Noachic laws), but they are quite minimal.  The
issue that the Church had to face after Jesus' death was what to do
about Gentiles who wanted to follow Christ.  The decision not to
impose the Law on them didn't say that the Law was abolished.  It
simply acknowledged that fact that it didn't apply to Gentiles.  This
is a simple answer, which I think just about everyone can agree to.
(A discussion of the issue in more or less these terms is recorded
in Acts 15.)

However there's more involved.  In order to get a full picture of the
role of the Law, we have to come to grips with Paul's apparent
rejection of the Law, and how that relates to Jesus' commendation of
the Law.  At least as I read Paul, he says that the Law serves a
purpose that has been in a certain sense superceded.  Again, this
issue isn't one of the abolition of the Law.  In the middle of his
discussion, Paul notes that he might be understood this way, and
assures us that that's not what he intends to say.  Rather, he sees
the Law as primarily being present to convict people of their
sinfulness.  But ultimately it's an impossible standard, and one that
has been superceded by Christ.  Paul's comments are not the world's
clearest here, and not everyone agrees with my reading.  But the
interesting thing to notice is that even this radical position does
not entail an abolition of the Law.  It still remains as an
uncompromising standard, from which not an iota or dot may be removed.
For its purpose of convicting of sin, it's important that it not be
relaxed.  However for Christians, it's not the end -- ultimately we
live in faith, not Law.

While the theoretical categories they use are rather different, in the
end I think Jesus and Paul come to a rather similar conclusion.  The
quoted passage from Mat 5 should be taken in the context of the rest
of the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus shows us how he interprets the
Law.  The "not an iota or dot" would suggest a rather literal reading,
but in fact that's not Jesus' approach.  Jesus' interpretations
emphasize the intent of the Law, and stay away from the ceremonial
details.  Indeed he is well known for taking a rather free attitude
towards the Sabbath and kosher laws.  Some scholars claim that Mat
5:17-20 needs to be taken in the context of 1st Cent. Jewish
discussions.  Jesus accuses his opponents of caring about giving a
tenth of even the most minor herbs, but neglecting the things that
really matter: justice, mercy and faith, and caring about how cups and
plates are cleaned, but not about the fact that inside the people who
use them are full of extortion and rapacity.  (Mat 23:23-25) This, and
the discussion later in Mat 5, suggest that Jesus has a very specific
view of the Law in mind, and that when he talks about maintaining the
Law in its full strength, he is thinking of these aspects of it.
Paul's conclusion is similar.  While he talks about the Law being
superceded, all of the specific examples he gives involve the
"ceremonial law", such as circumcision and the Sabbath.  He is quite
concerned about maintaining moral standards.

The net result of this is that when Paul talks about the Law being
superceded, and Jesus talks about the Law being maintained, I believe
they are talking about different aspects of the Law.  Paul is
embroiled in arguments about circumcision.  As is natural in letters
responding to specific situations, he's looking at the aspect of the
Law that is currently causing trouble: the Law as specifically Jewish
ceremonies.  He certainly does not intend to abolish divine standards
of conduct.  On the other hand, when Jesus commends the Law, he seems
to be talking the Law in its broadest implications for morals and
human relationships, and deemphasizing those aspects that were later
to give Paul so much trouble.

Is it right??? That is new stuff for me. So it means that  you just can 
not put a sattellite around around the Moon for too long because its 
orbit will be unstable??? If so, what is the reason??? Is that because 
the combined gravitacional atraction of the Sun,Moon and Earth 
that does not provide a stable  orbit around the Moon???

 C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV

C.O.Egalon@larc.nasa.gov

This is turning into 'what's a moonbase good for', and I ought
not to post when I've a hundred some odd posts to go, but I would
think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic.

Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry, eventually,
they will simply be able to afford more stuff.

I built it on a rs6000 (my only Motif machine) works fine.  I added some objects
into dogfight so I could get used to flying.  This was very easy. 
All in all Cool!.  
Brian

Hi guys.

I am scanning in a color image and it looks fine on the screen.  When I 
converted it into PCX,BMP,GIF files so as to get it into MS Windows the colors
got much lighter.  For example the yellows became white.  Any ideas?

By '8 grey level images' you mean 8 items of 1bit images?
It does work(!), but it doesn't work if you have more than 1bit
in your screen and if the screen intensity is non-linear.

With 2 bit per pixel; there could be 1*c_1 + 4*c_2 timing,
this gives 16 levels, but they are linear if screen intensity is
linear.
With 1*c_1 + 2*c_2 it works, but we have to find the best
compinations -- there's 10 levels, but 16 choises; best 10 must be
chosen. Different compinations for the same level, varies a bit, but
the levels keeps their order.

Readers should verify what I wrote... :-)

COCHRANE,JAMES SHAPLEIGH writes

This group killed itself to fulfill its interpretation of prophecy
and to book a suite in Paradise, taking innocent kids along for the
ride. I hardly think the feds were motivated by persecution. If they
were, all Koresh would have had to do was surrender quietly to the
authorities, without firing a shot, to get the American people behind
him and put the feds in the hot seat. But no, God told him to play
the tough guy. There's great strength in yielding, but few appreciate
this. 

: 
: And thank the Lord that Bill Connor has returned to set
: us straight!  Now I know I can die happy when my Lexus
: SE400 wipes out on that rain-slick curve in 1997.  The
: rest of you had best straighten up, because your time 
: is even more limited.  Most of you are going in the Flu
: of 1994.

Maddi,

You know you're glad to have me visit ...
But I won't stay long this time, just shopping around.

Welcome.  I am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people
are known by on alt.atheism (didn't know we had such a list, did you).
Your have been awarded the nickname of "Buckminster."  So the next time
you post an article, sign with your nickname like so:
Dave "Buckminster" Fuller.  Thanks again.

Jim "Humor means never having to say you're sorry" Copeland

Too many clues, not enough substance.  You ask a lot of
good questions, though, but they are questions *you* should
be worried about, not me.  I'm not the inerrantist here.

Let me know when you are ready to get serious.

Well, most hangings are very quick and, I imagine, painless.

And, hangings and firing squads are allowed today, too.  And, if these
things were not considered cruel, then surely a medical execution
(painless) would not be, either.

I agree, which is why I've asked for help with it.

The reason I'm working on this list is because I've recently had one
too many Christians tell me "the Bible contains no contradictions
whatsoever."  They believe that it's true, and that it describes
reality perfectly, and even predicts history before it happens.

Before I can carry on any sort of meaningful conversation with these
people, I've got to SHOW them, with concrete evidence, that the Bible
is not nearly as airtight as they thought.  I hope to do that with
this list.

Specifically: when I bring up the fact that Genesis contains two
contradictory creation stories, I usually get blank stares or flat
denials.  I've never had a fundamentalist acknowledge that there are
indeed two different accounts of creation.

Graeme> 	Yes, that's known as "Bresenhams Run Length Slice Algorithm for
Graeme> Incremental lines". See Fundamental Algorithms for Computer Graphics,
Graeme> Springer-Verlag, Berlin Heidelberg 1985.

Graeme> 	Hmm. I don't think I can help you with this, but you might
Graeme> take a look at the following:

Graeme> 	"Double-Step Incremental Generation of Lines and Circles",
Graeme> X. Wu and J. G. Rokne, Computer Graphics and Image processing,
Graeme> Vol 37, No. 4, Mar. 1987, pp. 331-334

Graeme> 	"Double-Step Generation of Ellipses", X. Wu and J. G. Rokne,
Graeme> IEEE Computer Graphics & Applications, May 1989, pp. 56-69

Another paper you might want to consider is:

@article{fungdraw,
  title="A Run-Length Slice Line Drawing Algorithm without Division Operations",
  author="Khun Yee Fung and Tina M. Nicholl and A. K. Dewdney",
  journal="Computer Graphics Forum",
  year=1992,
  volume=11,
  number=3,
  pages="C-267--C-277"
}

Khun Yee

Now, take a good look at at, an tell me man, there is no Christian
Devil? There is, is real, is a virus, a meme, infecting and possessing
the good people and keep 'em from becoming human beings with emphasis on
the being! Is not a matter of good people an evil people, is all good
people see, but some good people vexed of the Christian Devil. An it
can't be burn out or lynch out or rape out. Only wise up let I rise up.
Christian Devil is real man, how else can you explain five hundred years
of history, even more? Can only be explained by Christians invoke
Christian Devil.

you keep on knocking but you can't come in, i got to understand you've
been living in sin, but walk right in and sit right down, i'll keep
on loving you, i'll play the clown, but bend down low, let i tell you
what i know yah

i've been 'buked brothers and i've been stoned, woe, woe, woe, now i'm
hung by a tree in the the ganging on a few, woe, woe, woe, it doesn't
matter who the man is who lives the life he loves, it doesn't matter
what the man does or the honest life he loves, i want somewhere, i want
somewhere, hallelujah, hallelujah, somewhere to lay my head, woe is me

only ska beat in 'eaven man

stiff necked fools, you think you're cool, to deny me for simplicity, yes
you have gone, for so long with your love for vanity now, yes you have
got the wrong interpretation mixed up with vain imagination, so take jah
sun and jah moon and jah rain and jah stars, and forever yes erase your
fantasy, yeah, the lips of the righteous teach many, but fools die for
want of wisdom, the rich man's wealth is in his city, the righteous
wealth is in his holy place, so take jah sun and jah moon and jah rain
and jah stars, and forever yes erase your fantasy, destruction of the
poor is in their poverty, destruction of the soul is vanity, yeah, but i
don't want to rule ya, i don't want to fool ya, i don't want to school
ya, things you, you might never know about, yes you have got the wrong
interpretation mixed up with vain, vain imagination, stiff necked fools,
you think you're cool, to deny me for, oh simplicity

love to see, when yah move in the rhythm, love to see when you're
dancing from within, it gives great joy to feel such sweet togetherness,
everyone's doing and they're doing their best, it remind i of the days
in jericho, when we trodden down jericho wall, these are the days when
we'll trod true babylon, gonna trod until babylon fall

then I saw the angel with the seven seals saying, babylon throne going down

Todays New York TImes just wrote about a pact being negotiated 
between us and the Russians  to develope  High Temperature
Gas Cooled Fission Reactors using Re-Cycled Weapons Grade plutonium
from Warhead stockpiles.   THe fuel will be pelletized in ceramic
for safety,  and then after depletion will be sufficiently
contaminated with by-products to make extraction of the remaining
plutonium hazardous enough to deter re-use.

Apparently the project will be led by General Atomics of San Diego
with funding from the US GOvernment.  THe pilot plant will be built
and operated by the russians.

The HGA isn't all that reflective in the wavelengths that might "cook the
focal elements", nor is its figure good on those scales--the problem is
that the antenna _itself_ could not be exposed to Venus-level sunlight,
lest like Icarus' wings it melt.  (I think it was glues and such, as well
as electronics, that they were worried about.)  Thus it had to remain
furled and the axis _always_ pointed near the sun, so that the small
sunshade at the tip of the antenna mast would shadow the folded HGA.
(A larger sunshade beneath the antenna shielded the spacecraft bus.)

Fact or rumor....?  Madalyn Murray O'Hare an atheist who eliminated the
use of the bible reading and prayer in public schools 15 years ago is now
going to appear before the FCC with a petition to stop the reading of the
Gospel on the airways of America.  And she is also campaigning to remove
Christmas programs, songs, etc from the public schools.  If it is true
then mail to Federal Communications Commission 1919 H Street Washington DC
20054 expressing your opposition to her request.  Reference Petition number

[...stuff deleted...]

Andy-- I think we do agree, given your clarification of how we were 
each using the terms fact and theory.  I'll only add that I
think perhaps I feel more strongly about separating them,
though your usage is quite valid.

I'll add here that any falsification or rejection does not in any way
reduce its current usefulness.  So long as it accurately predicts or 
describes things we can observe.

Not to be a pain in the ass, but is there any reason you don't
just say _the theory of evolution_ rather than the _fact of evolution
is still a theory_.  I'm asking because this whole thread got started
because I was bothered by a post that referred to _the fact of evolution_,
basically leaving off the phrase _is still a theory_.  Without a 
clarification, like the one you just gave, just saying _the fact of
evolution_ has a very different meaning to me.

I'm not sure I agree here.  Again, it may be because I feel stronger
about separating terms.  I was trying to say that the _theories_
proposed to explain the _mechanisms_ and the _mechanisms_ themselves
are the only realities here.  It is the existence of mechanisms, not 
the things themselves, that are so predictive as to be considered 
fact (as you would say).  There aren't really little planetary particle 
systems called atoms out there.  Or I should say, and more to my original 
point, it would be a leap of faith to say there are, because we observe only 
the mechanisms.  There is no need to _believe_ there are _actually_
atoms out there as we have decided to think about them.  It's enough
to discuss the mechanisms.  At any rate, I'm not sure I am being 
any clearer than before, but I thought it was worth a shot.

The bottom line, though, is I think we agree on two fundamental ideas:

   1. --evolution is a theory supported by observational evidence (my way)
      --the fact of evolution is a theory supported by observational
        evidence (your way)

   2. --creation is just an opinion.  If a theist wants to call it
        a theory then he can.  I won't:  it has no supporting evidence 
	and it neither predicts nor supports any observations that can
        be made.  With no mechanisms to talk about, there really isn't
	much to say.

Do you agree?

Well, there are two approaches we can take here.  One is to ask you what this
objective morality is, assuming it's not a secret.

The other is to ask you what you think is wrong with relativism, so that we
can correct your misconceptions :-)

thus

Curiously, in modern PostScript, the point in a polygon problem can
be solved even more easily.  To wit:

%!
%%Title: Point in Polygon
%%Creator: Allen B (ab@cc.purdue.edu)
%%For: the amusement of comp.graphics regulars
%%LanguageLevel: 2
%%DocumentNeededResource: humor sense thereof
%%EndComments

% This program will test whether a point is inside a given polygon.
% Currently it uses the even-odd rule, but that can be changed by
% replacing ineofill with infill.  These are Level 2 operators,
% so if you've only got Level 1 you're out of luck.
%
% The result will be printed on the output stream.
%
% Caution: only accurate to device pixels!
% Put a huge scale in first if you aren't sure.

% Point to test
% PUT X AND Y COORDINATES HERE

50 75

% Vertices of polygon in counter-clockwise order
% PUT ARRAY OF PAIRS OF COORDINATES HERE
[
[   0   0 ]
[ 100   0 ]
[ 100 100 ]
[  67 100 ]
[  67  50 ]
[  33  50 ]
[  33 100 ]
[   0 100 ]
]

+
+I love the idea of an inflatable 1-mile long sign.... It will be a
+really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt  (or even better, a
+Westford Needle!) comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec.  
+
Pageos and two Echo balloons were inflated with a substance
which expanded in vacuum. Once inflated the substance was no longer
needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse.
This inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no 
disastrous deflation.

: 
: Seriously, though, Griffen didn't save the lives of children, and he did
: destroy the life of a man, so on the most superficial of levels, he's scum.
: 

I almost agree, but Griffen is not scum.  Scum has no guilt or freedom to
choose anything.  Griffen does.  God did not make scum when he made Griffen.
He made a precious person and this person chose to do wrong.  The same goes
for Dr. Gunn.

: But if you are to examine it more closely, Griffen would have preferred that
: these children were born -- yet AFTER their birth, did Griffen have any 
: assistance to offer them?  Did Griffen intend to support them, educate them,
: raise them up to be useful citizens?  Did he have any intent whatsoever
: to help these children after birth?
: 

Here's the real problem.  Americans have become so insensitive to the needs
of others and so completely wrapped up in themselves that they cannot see
straight or think clearly enough to make even the slightest and most obvious
moral decisions based on reality.

If a man abandons a woman to care for their child on her own, he is not
considered to be a very respectable or decent man by anyone.  This man has
fled his responsibility, has behaved like a lazy coward, and has turned
away from his responsibility to his wife and child.

However, if a woman decides to kill her unborn child to release her burden,
she is not thought of in the same way.  When the man abandons, the woman
suffers but the child is free to grow up and live a happy and normal life.
When the woman abandons, the child is diced or killed with saline or vacuumed
out, and the man has no choice, and the man sometimes suffers so badly that
he wishes he could trade places with his child.

Ths root of this whole problem is selfishness--the arrogance that says, "My
feelings and desires are supreme and your well being is not worth dung."
And when you come down to it, this is the substance of what hell is made of.
It's the reason a loving God can throw selfish people to the devil and his
demons for all of eternity.  Let any one of us unrepentant into heaven, and
we'll ruin it the first chance we get.

: Now, I don't really know the answer to these questions, but I've got a real
: good guess.
: 

And, it's probably right.

: And I wouldn't call *that* 'benevolent', either.
: 

It is a move in the right direction.  As it is now, we don't see our
responsibility because we kill it and get it out of sight.  The media
backs us completely.  Real responsibility does not sell.  The only
"responsibility" that sells in the marketplace is that which is just
enough to make us "feel responsible" without showing anything that
might show us our own true irresponsibility.  We want to "feel" like
good people, but we want nothing with *being* good people.  Just give
me the freedom to say "I'm good", and the rest of the world can burn.
Rape and kill my children and throw my parents to the places where
poor old folks rot until they're dead.  I'll hate my brother and sister
if I wish and I'll cheat on my wife or husband.  Screw the government,
because it screws me, and don't talk to me about giving to the church
because church people are all a bunch of money grubbing hypocrites.
But, I'm a good person.  At least I admit what I do.  At least I love
myself and we all know that is the greatest love in the world--not that
a man lay down his life for his brother...That sounds too "christian".

At the root, this is the substance of what hell is made of.

We've become a self indulgant, backslidden society no longer responsible
to our children, to our parents, to our families, to our government, or
to our God.  This is the root behind justification of every evil, of every
corruption in government, of every slanderous remark, of every lie, and
of every murder.  Society cannot continue to live like this long.  it will
have to destroy itsself soon, and perhaps in the end, that will be the
biggest blessing this world can hope to see.

Why do people see so much evil in trying to turn this situation around?

--
	"I deplore the horrible crime of child murder...
	 We want prevention, not merely punishment.
	 We must reach the root of the evil...
	 It is practiced by those whose inmost souls revolt
	 from the dreadful deed...
	 No mater what the motive, love of ease,
		or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent,
		the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed...
	 but oh! thrice guilty is he who drove her
		to the desperation which impelled her to the crime."

Oh?

What is wrong with *this* motto, now?  If you wouldn't approve of
even that one, I am beginning to think that you just have something
against mottos in general.  What do you think of "E plurbis unum?"

WHile we are on the subject of the shuttle software.

what ever happened to the hypothesis  that the shuttle flight software
was a major factor in the loss of 51-L.  to wit,  that during the
wind shear event,  the Flight control software  indicated a series
of very violent engine movements that shocked and set upa harmonic
resonance  leading to an overstress of the struts.

A while back someone had several equations which could be used for changing 3 f
iltered grey scale images into one true color image.  This is possible because
it's the same theory used by most color scanners.  I am not looking for the obv
ious solution which is to buy a color scanner but what I do need is those equat
ions becasue I am starting to write software which will automate the conversion
 process.  I would really appreciate it if someone would repost the 3 equations
/3 unknowns.   Thanks for the help!!!

Frank, I tried to mail this but it bounced.  It is fast moving out
of t.a scope, but I didn't know if t.a was the only group of the three
that you subscribed to.
Apologies to regular t.a folks.

You must be using 'values' to mean something different from the way I
see it used normally.

And you are certainly using 'Science' like that if you equate it to
"the real world".

Science is the recognition of patterns in our perceptions of the Universe
and the making of qualitative and quantitative predictions concerning
those perceptions.

It has nothing to do with values as far as I can see.
Values are ... well they are what I value.
They are what I would have rather than not have - what I would experience
rather than not, and so on.

Objective values are a set of values which the proposer believes are
applicable to everyone.

I don't agree.
Science is useful insofar as it the predictions mentioned above are
accurate.  That is insofar as what I think *will be* the effect on
my perceptions of a time lapse (with or without my input to the Universe)
versus what my perceptions actually turn out to be.

But values are about whether I like (in the loosest sense of the word) the 
perceptions :-)

I don't see why.
'Usefulness' in science is synonomous with 'accuracy' - period.
Tarot predictions are not useful because they are not accurate - or
can't be shown to be accurate.
Science is useful because it is apparently accurate.

Values - objective or otherwise - are beside the point.

No?

I heard he had asked the FBI to provide him with a word processor.  Does
anyone know if Koresh has requested that it be WordPerfect5.0?  WP5.0 was
written (and is owned) by Mormons, so the theological implications of
requesting (or refusing) WP5.0 are profound!

Joint Press release ESA/UN No 18-93
Paris, 19 April 1993

UN/ESA joint training course on satellite applications
to be held in Italy, 19-30 April

The United Nations and the European Space Agency (ESA)
are jointly organising a training course on the applications of
satellite data gathered by the European Remote Sensing
Satellite (ERS-1), to be held in Frascati, Italy, from 19 to 30
April. The training course will discuss the applications of
satellite data concerning natural resources, renewable energy
and the environment.

The training course, organised for the benefit of francophone
African experts, will be hosted by ESRIN, the European Space
Agency's establishment in Frascati, which is responsible for
coordination with the users of data from ESA's remote sensing
satellite. Twenty-four experts in the field of remote sensing,
selected from 19 francophone countries from northern, western
and central Africa, and three regional African centres, will
attend the two-week session. The course will focus on remote
sensing techniques and data applications, particularly ERS-1
data.

The ERS-1 satellite, developed by ESA and launched in 1991
with the European Ariane launcher, carries an advanced radar
instrument and is the first in a series of radar remote sensing
missions that will ensure availability of data beyond the year
2000. The aim of the training course is to increase the
potential of experts using the practical applications of radar
remote sensing systems to natural resources, renewable energy
and the environment, with particular emphasis on applications
to geology and mineral prospecting, oceanography and near-
coastal areas, agriculture, forestry and meteorology.

The education and practical training programme was
developed jointly by the United Nations and ESA. The
facilities and the technical support, as well as lecturers and
information documents for the training course, will be
provided by the Agency. Lecturers at the training course will
include high-level experts from other European and African
organisations active in remote sensing applications. Funds for
the training course are being provided by the United Nations

Trust Fund for New and Renewable Sources of Energy; the
primary contributor to that Fund is the Government of Italy.

The RS6000 compiler is so forgiving, I think that if you mixed COBOL & pascal
the C compiler still wouldn't complain. :-)

Steve
-- 

Another dodge.  Oh well.  I'm no match for your amazing repertoire
of red herrings and smoke screens.  

You asked for an apology.  I'm not going to apologize for pointing out
that your straw-man argument was a straw-man argument.  Nor for saying
that your list of "bible contradictions" shows such low standards of
scholarship that it should be an embarrassment to anti-inerrantists,
just as Josh McDowell should be an embarrassment to the fundies.  Nor
for objecting various times to your taking quotes out of context.  Nor
for pointing out that "they do it too" is not an excuse. Nor for calling
your red herrings and smoke screens what they are.

I'm still not sure why you think I'm a hypocrite.  It's true that I
haven't responded to any of Robert Weiss' articles, which may be due in
part to the fact that I almost never read his articles.  But I have
responded to both you and Frank DeCenso (a fundie/inerrantist.)  Both
you and Frank have taken quotes out of context, and I've objected to
both of you doing so.  I've criticized bad arguments both when they
were yours and I agreed with the conclusion (that the Bible is not
inerrant), and when they were Frank's and I disagreed with the
conclusion.  I've criticized both you and Frank for evading questions,
and for trying to "explain me away" without addressing the objections
I raise (you by accusing me of being hypocritical and irrational, Frank
by accusing me of being motivated by a desire to attack the Bible.) I
don't see that any of this is hypocritical, nor do I apologize for it.

I do apologize, however, for having offended you in any other way.

Happy now?

Concerning the proposed newsgroup split, I personally am not in favor of
   doing this.  I learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading
   this group, from code to hardware to algorithms.  I just think making 5
   different groups out of this is a wate, and will only result in a few posts
   a week per group.  I kind of like the convenience of having one big forum
   for discussing all aspects of graphics.  Anyone else feel this way?
   Just curious.

I disagree.  You could learn the same amount by reading all the
split groups, and it would make things easier for those of us
who are less omnivorous.  There is no "waste" in creating news
groups -- its just a bit of shuffling about.  I have no problem
with only a few posts per week per group - I spend too much time
on this as it is.

No, the argument says John has known Q, ie a codified version of the logia,
and not the original, assuming that there has been one. It has weaknesses,
of course, like that John might have known the original, yet rather referred
to Q in his text, or that the logia were given in a codified version in
the first place.
 
The argument alone does not allow a firm conclusion, but it fits well into
the dating usually given for the gospels.
 
Not necessarily, Luke may have trusted the version he knew better than the
version given by Matthew. Improving on Matthew would give a motive, for
instance.
 
As far as I know, the theory that Luke has known Matthew is based on a
statistical analysis of the texts.
 
Yep, but it will take another day or so to get the source. I hope your German
is good enough. :-)
 
I still do not see how copies from 200 allow to change the dating of John.
 
Yes, but an if gives only possibilities and no evidence. The authencity of
many letters is still discussed. It looks as if conclusions about them are not
drawn because some pet dogmas of the churches would probably fall with them as
well.
 
Well, rather like some newsletter of a political party reporting from the
big meeting. Not necessarily wrong, but certainly bad.
 
Yes, but the accuracy of their tradition is another problem.

Just out of curiousity, how old is Worden?
--
_______________________________________________________________________________

A brilliant algorithm.  *NOT*

Seriously - it's correct, up to a sign change.  The flaw is obvious, and
will therefore not be shown.

sorry about that.

If the  new  Kuiper belt object *is*  called 'Karla', the next
one  should be called 'Smiley'.

Doug-- Actually, if memory serves, the Atlas is an outgrowth of the old 
Titan ICBM.  If so, there's probably quite a few old pads, albeit in need 
of some serious reconditioning.  Still, Being able to buy the turf and 
pad (and bunkers, including prep facility) at Midwest farmland prices 
strikes me as pretty damned cheap.

: Marian CATHOLIC high school, outside of chicago:
: 
: 666 south ASHLAND avenue.
: 
Actually, Satanism is technically inverted Catholicism.

[deleted]
think:
[deleted]
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Let me first say that "to believe that no gods exist" is in fact 
different than "not believing in a god or gods". 

I will argue that your latter statement, "I believe that no gods exist"
does rest upon faith - that is, if you are making a POSITIVE statement 
that "no gods exist" (strong atheism) rather than merely saying I don't  
know and therefore don't believe in them and don't NOT believe in then
(weak atheism). Once again, to not believe in God is different than saying  
I BELIEVE that God does not exist. I still maintain the position, even 
after reading the FAQs, that strong atheism requires faith.

But first let me say the following.
We might have a language problem here - in regards to "faith" and
"existence". I, as a Christian, maintain that God does not exist.
To exist means to have being in space and time. God does not HAVE
being - God IS Being. Kierkegaard once said that God does not
exist, He is eternal. With this said, I feel it's rather pointless
to debate the so called "existence" of God - and that is not what
I'm doing here. I believe that God is the source and ground of
being. When you say that "god does not exist", I also accept this
statement - but we obviously mean two different things by it. However,
in what follows I will use the phrase "the existence of God" in it's
'usual sense' - and this is the sense that I think you are using it.
I would like a clarification upon what you mean by "the existence of
God".
 
We also might differ upon what it means to have faith. Here is what

faith 
1a: allegiance to duty or a person: LOYALTY
b  (1): fidelity to one's promises
   (2): sincerity of intentions
2a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God
   (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b  (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   (2): complete trust
3: something that is believed esp. with strong conviction; esp: a system 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of religious beliefs
syn see BELIEF

One can never prove that God does or does not exist. When you say
that you believe God does not exist, and that this is an opinion
"based upon observation", I will have to ask "what observtions are
you refering to?" There are NO observations - pro or con - that
are valid here in establishing a POSITIVE belief. All observations
can only point you in a direction - a direction that we might even
be predisposed to (by predisposed I mean, for example, people whoes 
partents "believe in God" also tend to). To actually draw a conclusion
about the "existence" or "non-existence" of God requires a leap - and
you have made this leap when you actively say "I believe that God  
does/does not exist". Personally, I think that both statements are
misguided. Arguing over the "existence" of God is precisely the wrong way
to find Him (and yes, I use "Him" because a personal God is the only 
viable concept (IMO) - if a person wants to use "She" go ahead. Of course 
God is neither He nor She - but we have no choice but to 
anthropomorphise. If you want me to explain myself further I'll be 
glad to.) 

And please, if someone does not agree with me - even if they violently 
disagree - it's in no ones advantage to start name calling. If a person 
thinks I've misunderstood something in the FAQs, or if they they think 
I have not read them well enough, just point out to me the error of my 
ways and I correct the situation. I'm interested in a polite and well  
thought out discussion.

: >: >> Gilligan = Sloth
: >: >> Skipper = Anger
: >: >> Thurston Howell III = Greed
: >: >> Lovey Howell = Gluttony
: >: >> Ginger = Lust
: >: >> Professor = Pride
: >: >> Mary Ann = Envy
: >
: >Assorted Monkeys= Secular Humanism
: 
: Assorted Headhunters - Godless, Heathen Savagery
: Russian Agent who looks like Gilligan - Godless Communism
: Japanese Sailor - Godless Barbarism
: Walter Pigeon - Godless Bird Turd
: The Mosquitos (Bingo, Bango, Bongo, Irving) - Godless Rock'n'Roll
: Harold Heckuba (Phil Silvers) - Hollywood Hedonism
: John McGiver - Butterfly flicking
: Tonga, the Fake Apeman - Deceit, Lust
: Eva Grubb - Deceit, lust

I produced an error last week about CHORION:

I abhor publishing trash (I abhor it of myself even more than I do from
others, but since I do not present myself as an authority on the subject, I do
not feel dishonest, though I do openly admit ignorance and incompetence in
this example).  Thus I felt honor bound to do a better set of research
specifically on the word.  First it should be noted that Greek grammar is not
as tough as I first assumed (it is not nontrivial by any means, and I still am
not competent with it, but it is not as opaque as I had thought).  It turns
out that while the Index for the Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich "Greek Lexicon" renders
each verse in order, each word within a verse is put in greek alphabetical
order.  Thus while the the meaning of the verse is decipherable, the syntax is
far from clear.  On the other hand, a Greek-English Intralinear Bible makes
things a lot more comprehendable.  And yes, the word for field in Acts 1:18 is
indeed "chorion." 

Now I've checked several Greek-English lexicons:

	"Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament," Louw and Nida
	"Robinson's Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament"
	"Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament," Grimm
	"Word study Concordance," Tynsdale
	"A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and other 
	 early Christian Writings," Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich
	"The New Analytical Greek Lexicon," Perschbacher

In each case the meaning of the word Chorion was given variously as:

	A space, place, region, district, field, area, "country place," 
	land, farm, estate, "a bit of tillage", and similar meanings.

Nowhere do any of these books mention anything about "grave." As some of these 
books go into great detail, I would be very surprised to find that these books 
are all inadequate and Mr Archer is the only competent scholar in Greek.  I 
think it more likely that Mr Archer's investigations into "contradictions" to 
be once again, as your friend said it, "lacking in substance," and thus Archer 
is again shown worthless as an expert witness (By the way Mr DeCenso, I would 
have honorably presented my results on this matter, even if I had found them
to support Mr Archer's contentions). 

By the way, among these lexicons, (eg: Robinson's) is the definition of
"agros," the word used in Matthew 27 to describe the field bought.  The word
"agros" is defined as "a field in the country." Chorion is specifically noted
as a synonym to agros.  This is significant, as it is evidence of how silly
Bullinger's exegisis was, which stated that the word for "field" in Matthew
(ie: agros) is different from the word for "field" in Acts (ie: chorion), and
thus we must be talking about two different fields (Of course you already
admit how stupid Bullinger's exegisis is, but this was a small serendipity
which drives the point home). 

So as of now, unless Mr DeCenso show compelling reasons to believe otherwise
(eg: a reputable scholar with reputable references), I consider this 
particular issue closed.  See Mr DeCenso, now you can go on to answer
questions about the denials of Peter, the day of the Crucifixion, Tyre, and 
the fact that the author of Matthew quoted from the wrong prophet in
discussing the "Potter's Field."
 
				Later,

				Dave Butler

Every time you read about a shuttle landing they mention the double sonic  
booms.  Having taken various relevant classes, I have several ideas of where  
they come from, but none of them are very convincing.  Exactly what causes  
them?  Are they a one time pheneomenon, or a constant one like the supersonic  
shockwave that is constantly produced by a plane, but you hear only when it  
goes over you?

---
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Petri and Mathew,

Your discusion on the "reality" of atoms is interesting, but it
would seem that you are verging on the question "Is anything real":
that is, since observation is not 100% reliable, how can we say
that anything is "real".  I don't think this was the intention
of the original question, since you now define-out the word
"real" so that nothing can meet its criteria.
Just a thought.

Brian /-|-\

That is in fact the current version (it only came out in December).

My test movie was created at 320*240 resolution, it wasn't being scaled up.
Scaling was a very CPU-intensive operation with the original QuickTime (1.0);
the current version has optimizations for ratios like 4:1 (160*120 -> 320*240),
but even so, I'm prepared to believe that the performance isn't as good as
with playing back an actual 320*240 movie. I haven't done any numerical
measurements for scaled playback.

: 
: 	Wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence. If you state that 
: one of the books in your room is blue, I certainly do not need as much 
: evidence to believe than if you were to claim that there is a two headed 
: leapard in your bed. [ and I don't mean a male lover in a leotard! ]

Keith, 

If the issue is, "What is Truth" then the consequences of whatever
proposition argued is irrelevent. If the issue is, "What are the consequences
if such and such -is- True", then Truth is irrelevent. Which is it to
be?

Well, that explains some things; I posted on soc.religion.islam
with an attached quote by Bobby to the effect that all atheists
are lying evil scum, and asked if it was a commonly-held idea
among muslims.  I got no response.  Asking about the unknown,
I guess...

Karl
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I posted this over in sci.astro, but it didn't make it here.
Thought you all would like my wonderful pithy commentary :-)

What? You guys have never seen the Goodyear blimp polluting
the daytime and nightime skies?

Actually an oribital sign would only be visible near
sunset and sunrise, I believe.  So pollution at night
would be minimal.

If it pays for space travel, go for it.  Those who don't
like spatial billboards can then head for the pristine
environment of Jupiter's moons :-)

I think he wanted to avoid reinventing the wheel.
I would suggest that you take your code, and submit it to
comp.sys.mac.binaries to be distributed (including to the ftp sites). 
Many folks, myself included, would enjoy the extra code.

Just to clarify, the 3D routines that are mentioned in various places
on the mac are in a libray, not the ROM of the mac.  A few years ago before
I knew anything about implementing graphics, I came across a demo of the
Apple GrafSys3D library and it actually did a lot.  However, it is quite
limited in the sense that it's a low-level 3D library; your code still has
to plot individual points, draw each line, etc ad nauseum.  It has nothing
on GL, for example, where you can handle objects.

Other things to consider when talking about Apple's old 3D GrafSys library:

* Unsupported;  never was and no plans exist to do so in the future

* Undocumented; unless you call header files documentation...

If one knows something about graphics, you could probably figure it out,
but I'd assume there's better software available that gives better
output and is, at the same time, programmatically nicer (i.e. easier to
program).

Just my 2% tax

(reference line trimmed)

[...]

Yes.

Well, for example, the goal of "natural" morality is the survival and
propogation of the species.  Another example of a moral system is
presented within the Declaration of Independence, which states that we
should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  You see,
to have a moral system, we must define the purpose of the system.  That is,
we shall be moral unto what end?

Well, murder violates the golen rule, which is certainly a pillar of most
every moral system.  However, I am not assuming that our current system
and the manner of its implementation are objectively moral.  I think that
it is a very good approximation, but we can't be perfect.

Well, "objective" would assume a system based on clear and fundamental
concepts, while "arbitary" implies no clear line of reasoning.

I'm posting this for a friend:

  I have an immediate need for a polygon-based hidden-line removal  
  program.  I can deal with any input/output format, but I need to be able  
  to do perspective views in any orientation and range.

  Is there a public-domain hidden-line program around?  It seems like  
  there should be, but I have not been able to locate one.

Naw, the owners of WordPerfect are Mormons, and by Tony Rose's
and Robert Weiss' standards, Mormons aren't Christians.  :-)

In the April edition of "One Small Step for a Space Activist",
Allen Sherzer & Tim Kyger write:
  "Another problem is what are called 'wraps' (or sometimes
   the 'center tax'). When work for a large program like
   Freedom or Shuttle is performed at a NASA center, the
   center skims off a portion which goes into what amounts
   to a slush fund. This money is used to fund work the
   center manager wants to fund. This sum is estimated to
   be over a third of the funds allocated. Think about
   that: Of the $30 billion cost of Freedom, fully $10
   billion won't be spent on anything having anything
   to do with Space Stations! Now, maybe that $10 billion
   was wisely spent (and maybe it wasn't), but the work done
   with it should stand on its own merits, not distorting
   the cost of other projects. Congress has no idea of the
   existense of these wraps; Congress has never heard the
   term 'center tax'. They look at the Station they are
   getting and the price they are paying and note that
   it doesn't add up. They wonder this blissfully unaware
   that a third of the money is going for something else."

My dear friends, your mixing fact and fiction here. A couple
of weeks ago, when I first read this in your posting, I
talked with one of the cost experts here in Space Station
at Headquarters [if you wondering why I didn't post a
response immediately, I do have a real job I'm supposed
to be doing here at Headquarters, & digging up old 20 kHz
data & looking into Sherzer/Kyger claims rates pretty low
on the totem pole of priority. Also, I spent last weekend
in Kansas City, at the National Science Teachers 
Association conference, extolling the virtues of SSF
to 15,000 science teachers.]

First off, yes, the concept of 'center tax', or 'wrap' does
exist. If I recall the numbers correctly, the total 'tax'
for the SSF program for this fiscal year is around $40 Million.
This was computed by adding up the WP-1, WP-2, and WP-4
center 'taxes'. With the SSF budget for this fiscal year at
$2.2 Billion, my calculater says the tax percentage is
04/2.2 = 1.8%

Over the life of the SSF program, using your figure of $30
billion for the cost of SSF, a tax at a 1.8% rate comes to
$540 million. This is alot less than $10 billion, but I
will concede it's still an appreciable amount of pocket
change.

I should note that your estimate of the tax rate at 1/3 could
be close to the actual rate. The tax is only charged on funds
that are spent at the center (kind of like McDonalds at some
states, where you do have to pay sales tax if you eat
the food at the restaurant, but you don't if you get it
take-out). For example, at WP-4, the vast bulk of the funds
we receive go to the Rocketdyne Contract, and are *NOT*
subject to the center tax (I don't have the numbers in
front of me, but I'd guess at least 95% of the WP-4 funds
go to Rocketdyne). So, you could be right about a tax
rate of 1/3, but it's only applied to funds spent at the
center, and not to the prime contracts.

This leads to the obvious question "What is the government
doing with SSF funds that don't go to the prime contractors?
(i.e. ok, WP-4 gets a slice of the $30 billion pie. A
big portion of this slice goes to Rocketdyne. What happens
to the balance of the funds, which aren't eaten
up by the center tax?)"

At WP-4, we call these funds we spend in-house supporting
development funds (as they are supporting the development
work done by Rocketdyne). We have used these funds to
setup our own testbed, to checkout the electrical
power system architecture. Our testbed has a real life
solar array field (left over from solar cell research
research a few years back), with lead-acid car batteries
(to simulate the Nickel-Hydrogen batteries on SSF), DC
switchgear, DC-DC converter units, and simulated
loads. Data from the testbed was used in a recent
change evaluation involving concerns about the stability
of the power system.

We have also used the supporting development money to
purchase Nickel Hydrogen batteries, which are on life
testing at both Lewis and the Crane Naval facility in
Indiana. As a side point, 6 of the battery cells on
test recently hit the four year life test milestone.
38 cells have completed 18,552 to 23,405 cycles (the
on-orbit batteries go through 5,840 cycles per year).

As a final example, my 'home' division at Lewis used
the supporting development funds to purchase personal
computers and work stations, for performing system
analyses (like modeling of the performance of the
electrical power system, availability calculations
using a Monte-Carlo simulation, setting up a 
database with information on weight of the power
system elements).

Finally, the money raised by the 'tax' does not all
go into a 'slush fund.' At Lewis, the director
does control a small discretionary fund. Each year,
any individual at Lewis can submit a proposal to
the director to get money from this fund to look
at pretty much anything within the Lewis Charter.

Most of the tax, however, goes to fund the 'general'
services at the Center, like the library, the 
central computer services division, the Contractor 
who removes the snow, etc. Thus, it is rather
difficult to determine what percentage of the
SSF budget doesn't go for SSF activities. To get
an accurate figure, you would have to take
the annual expenditure for the library (for example),
and then divide by the amount of the library funds
used to support SSF (which would be hard to
compute by itself - how would you figure out
what percentage of the bill for Aviation Week for
1 year is 'billable' to SSF, would you base it on
the person-hours SSF employees spend reading AV-week
versus the rest of the center personnel). You would
then have to compare this estimate of the SSF
portion of the library expense with the portion of
the tax that goes to support the library. Who knows,
maybe SSF overpays on the tax to run the library, but
we underpay for snow removal? Talk about
a burecratic nightmare!

  Bingo.
 Nothing evil at all. There's no actual harm in what they're doing, only
how they represent it.

 -----------------------------------------------------------------
 .sig files are like strings ... every yo-yo's got one.

: [first post I've seen from the ol' Bug-Zoo (BGSU)]
: >     There is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt
: >that a god does not exist (but if anyone has one, by all means, tell me
: >what it is).  Therefore, lacking this ability of absolute proof, being an
: >atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself, and this I cannot accept.
: > I accept nothing on blind faith.

: Invisible Pink Flying Unicorns!  Need I say more?

There is also the question of what is meant by "atheist".  A familiar
example of the importance of the meaning of the word is as follows.

The two statements following ARE consistent:

(1) I do not believe that you are wearing lilac socks
(2) I do not believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks

The two statements following are NOT consistent:

(3) I do believe that you are wearing lilac socks
(4) I do believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks

Statements (1) and (2) require no faith, they make no presumptions about
the nature of reality.  Statements (3) and (4) require belief.  Many
atheists (myself included) take the following position:

(5) I do not believe that there is a god.
(6) I do not believe that there is not a god.

An excellent reference for non-technical readers on the ORION system is
"The Starflight Handbook", by Eugene Mallove and Gregory Matloff, ISBN
0-471-61912-4. The relevant chapter is 4: Nuclear Pulse Propulsion.

The book also contains lots of technical references for the more academically
inclined. 

Enjoy!

Henry,

didn't the Little Joe  and Big Joe  get built in under a year?
6 months for little Joe,  and 12 Months for Big Joe?

i thought i saw something on that for  a old mercury film.

Hi,

My name is rahul and I am doing MS at USU, Logan
My query is:
	I have a HP workstation: HP Series 400 with X running on it.
I have a true color - 24bit color monitor connected to this machine.
Normally I have the capability to display 256 colors from a max of
16.7 million. Since the monitor is True Color I can see 16.7
million at a time. 
Que: do we have a facility in X(c-function call) that will enable me
to specify any RGB combination and see it on screen? I am using
XStoreColor to set the pallette of a max of 256 colors.
Que: If not. Is there any way I can display a true color image
on a true color monitor using XLib function calls?

We are generating ray traced images and 256 colors are indeed a
painful limit. besides I need the facility to display the true color images 
i will be generating on a true color system WITHOUT color 
quantification.
Please, if anyone can help i'd be obliged

Hi,

Anyone has a converter from BMP to any format that xview or xv can

handle?  This converter must run Unix..  I looked at the FAQ and downloaded
several packages but had no luck...  thanks in advance.

ed

Where does it say in the bible that Christians are supposed to persecute
Jews?  Isn't it love your enemies instead?  They may say they are "Christian"
but do their actions speak differently?  Do you believe what everyone tells
you?  I don't.  I came to believe in God by my own investigation and conclusions.
And ultimately by my own choice.  Salvation, however, was granted only through
the grace of God.

To be a Christian is to model oneself after Jesus Christ as implied by the
very name Christian.  If you say you believe in your head but do not feel in
your heart, what does that say of your belief?

White supremists and Neo-Nazis are NOT any brand of Christian.

"If you hate your whom you can see then how can you love God whom you cannot
 see?"

What does this belief entail?  Believing in Christ and having your sins
forgiven in His name does NOT give a Christian a free licence to sin.  To
repent of a sin is to ask forgiveness of that sin and TRY NOT to do it
again.  I am a Christian, but if you lump me in with racists and accuse me
of being such, then are you not pre-judging me?  BTW, I am of Chinese racial
background and I know what it is to be part of a visible minority in this
country.  I don't think that I would be favourably looked upon by these
White supremist "Christians" as you call them.

Anyone can say what they believe, but if they don't practice what they preach,
then their belief is false.  Do you concur?
 
Nazis and racists in general are the ones that come to my immediate attention.
What I believe is that such people may be using the bible to mask their racial
intolerance and bigotry.  They can do as they do and hide behind Christianity
but I tell you that Jesus would have nothing to do with them.

No arguement there.

The only point I'm trying to make is that those who call themselves Christian
may not be Christian.  I ask that you draw your own conclusions by what they
do and what they say.  If they are not modelled after the example of Jesus
Christ then they are NOT Christian.  If they have not repented of their sins
and accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour then they are 
NOT Christian.  These are the only criteria to being a Christian.

May God be with you,

I would like to find out about space engineering employment and educational
opportunities in the Tucson, Arizona area.  E-mail responses appreciated.
My mail feed is intermittent, so please try one or all of these addresses.

Well, this particular thread of vituperation slopped its venom over
into alt.atheism, where we spend most of our time entertaining
arguments against our belief system, without resorting to accusing
others of bigotry.  It's somewhat ironic that our exposure to bigotry
happens in this instance to have originated in rec.scouting, since I
always understood scouting to teach tolerance and diversity.  I
understand bigotry to be irrational prejudice against other people who
happen to be of a different race, religion, ethnic background, sex, or
other inconsequential characteristics.  All the evidence I've seen
indicates that sexual orientation and lack of belief in gods are
exactly such inconsequential characteristics.  Thus, pending further
evidence, I conclude that those who show prejudice against such people
are bigots, and organizations that exclude such people are
discriminatory.

Original to: szabo@techbook.com
G'day szabo@techbook.com

29 Mar 93 07:28, szabo@techbook.com wrote to All:

 sc> szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo), via Kralizec 3:713/602

 sc> Here are some longer-term markets to consider:

Here are some more:

* Terrestrial illumination from orbiting mirrors.

* World enviroment and disaster monitering system. (the Japanese have
already developed a plan for this, called WEDOS) Although this may be more
of a "public good".

* Space tourism.

* Energy relay satellites

ta

Ralph

Anyone who dies for a "cause" runs the risk of dying for a lie.  As for
people being able to tell if he was a liar, well, we've had grifters and
charlatans since the beginning of civilization.  If David Copperfield had
been the Messiah, I bet he could have found plenty of believers.  
Jesus was hardly the first to claim to be a faith healer, and he wasn't the
first to be "witnessed."  What sets him apart?

Rubbish.  Nations have followed crazies, liars, psychopaths, and 
megalomaniacs throughout history.  Hitler, Tojo, Mussolini, Khomeini,
Qadaffi, Stalin, Papa Doc, and Nixon come to mind...all from this century.
Koresh is a non-issue.

Take a discrete mathematics or formal logic course.  There are flaws in your
logic everywhere.  And as I'm sure others will tell you, read the FAQ!

Of course, you have to believe the Bible first.  Just because something is
written in the Bible does not mean it is true, and the age of that tome plus
the lack of external supporting evidence makes it less credible.  So if you
do quote from the Bible in the future, try to back up that quote with 
supporting evidence.  Otherwise, you will get flamed mercilessly.

Just like weight lifting or guitar playing, eh?  I don't know how you 
define the world "total," but I would imagine a "total sacrafice [sp]
of everything for God's sake" would involve more than a time commitment.

You are correct about our tendency to "box everything into time units."
Would you explain HOW one should involove God in sports and (hehehe)
television?

Getting an image from a computer monitor to a videotape
is harder than it looks.  The standard VGA and EGA outputs are 
very different than the NTSC format used by televisions.  While
there is equipment that will do the conversion, it is hard to
get your hands on and costs quite a bit.

	If you have access to an Amiga computer, that has an
NTSC output, you can transfer certain types of graphic files by
modem and tape them from the NTSC output.  Unfortunately, this
would be frame-by-frame and would lead to unbelievably scratchy
animation unless you had a good Amiga animation program.

He sounds really cute, Morte!  Kinds like _pete's dragon_, maybe smaller,
maybe a different species.. winge'd?  (shakespear wing-ED)

I've always hat a horde of mice to turn to for fun & sort of that kind of
mouse in Cinderella (walt disney).  I grew up sort of as an only child,
part time.. my siblings were 10-8-6 years older than me, so i was pretty
commonly a different sort of charater in their games (read: non speaking
hot cocoa-goffer, stand in (still silent) bad guy/good guy/etc), so my
mice were playmates, more than advisors.

Could curt, or whomever has a good list of books please post such list,
in all sorts of fields, like jungian, condensed buddist/etc philosophies,
multiple personailty disorders, or good fiction that has well worked
imaginary friends?

Peanut butter was definitely my favorite. I don't think I ever took a second bite
of the strawberry.

I recently joined Nutri-System and their "Chewy Fudge Bar" is very reminicent of
the chocolate Space Food. This is the only thing I can find that even comes close
the taste. It takes you back... your taste-buds are happy and your
intestines are in knots... joy!

-- 

mark ----------------------------
(adam@paix.sw.stratus.com)	|	My opinions are not those of Stratus.
				|	Hell! I don`t even agree with myself!

frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes ...

To the degree that relativism is a more accurate decription of the
truth than is objectivism, it provides more power and ability to
control events.

Assuming, for the moment, that morals _are_ relative, then two
relativists can recognize that neither has a lock on the absolute
truth and they can proceed to negotiate a workable compromise that
produces the desired results.

Assuming that there is an absolute morality, two disagreeing 
objectivists can either be both wrong or just one of them right; there
is no room for compromise.  Once you beleive in absolute morals,
you must accept that you are amoral or that everyone who disagrees
with you is amoral.

Given a choice between a peaceful compromise or endless contention,
I'd say that compromise seems to be "better".

I am looking for an algorithm to determine if a given point is bound by a 
polygon. Does anyone have any such code or a reference to book containing
information on the subject ?

		Regards

Well, dozens of children left the compound between the original BATF assualt
and the FBI assault 7 weeks later. So if Koresh really wanted to kill
children, why did he let so many go?

SPECIFIC:
Basically to be able to do the things the big dadies can do.. Monitor, and
control if need be the Shuttle...

Such as the one in Australia and such....

Not quite true.  One of the instruments on Mars Observer will be searching
for potential fossil sites.   

Hello,

    I have been searching for a quality image enhancement and
    manipulation package for Unix/X/Motif platforms that is comparable
    to Adobe Photo Shop for the Mac.

    I have not been able to find any, and would appreciate any
    information about such products you could provide.

    I would be particularly interested in software that runs on HP or
    Sun workstations, and does not require special add-in hardware, but
    would also be interested in other solutions.

Thank You.
Wayne

Ah, the verb "to must".   I was warned about that one back
in Kindergarten.

So, why "must" they have such laws?

Sorry, Bill, I had to clear this up. There may be good evolutionary
arguments against homosexuality, but these don't qualify.

 Oh? I guess all those social insects (e.g. ants, bees, etc.) which
have one breeding queen and a whole passel of sterile workers are on
the way out, huh?
 
 I refer you to the bonobos, a species of primate as closeley related to
humans as chimpanzees (that is, very closely). They have sex all the
time, homosexual as well as heterosexual. When the group finds food, they
have sex. Before the go to sleep at night, they have sex. After they
escape from or fight off prdators, they have sex. Sex serves a very important
social function above and beyond reproduction in this species. A species
closely related to humans. There is some indication that sex performs
a social function in humans, as well, but even if not, this shows that
such a function is not *impossible*.

I am a Mac-user when it comes to graphics (that's what I own software and hardware for) and
I've recently come across a large number of TTTDDD format modeling databases.  Is there any
software, mac or unix, for translating those to something I could use, like DXF?  Please
reply via email.

Hi all,

    I'm trying to get mailing addresses for the following
companies.  Specifically, I need addresses for their personnel
offices or like bureau.  The companies are:

	- AMROC
	- Orbital Sciences Corp. (sp?)
	- Spacehab, Inc.  (I know this one is somewhere in 
		 	   Seattle, WA, or at least part of it is.)
	- Space Industries, Inc.  (Somewhere in Houston)
	- Space Enterprises Inc.

If anybody could point me in the right direction on this, I
would be most appreciative.  I prefer an email response, but I
will post a summary if sufficient interest exists.

Thanks,

I tend to agree.  I came here when it first started and watched it grow
from the roots on talk.religion.misc.  It seemed to take a while for enough
atheists to come forward to get past the "Let's trash Xians" and such.
Now there's a stable core, and frankly there's a feeling that this is
_our_ group.

If we go mainstream, we're going to be in a lot more places.  And every
fucking fundy loonie freshman will be dumping on us to find Jeesus! and
warn us that we're all going to Hell.

Want to see what we'll get?  Go real alt.fan.brother-jed and imagine that
those imbecilic tirades will be here.  All the time.  Every other post.

I'm being selfish.  I find I really learn a lot here and the S/N isn't too
bad.  The Browns and the Boobys are a distraction, but they are few enough
that they even bring in some of the leavening needed to offset them.  But
I greatly fear that mainstreaming would basically put us at the swamping
level of the Conners of the world.

Regards,
Dew

Hi!... 

I am searching for packages that could handle Multi-page GIF
files...    

Are there any on some ftp servers?

I'll appreciate one which works on PC (either on DOS or Windows 3.0/3.1).
But any package works on Unix will be OK..

I've asked your god several times with all my heart to come to me.  I
really wish I could believe in him, 'cos no matter how much confidence
I build up on my own, the universe *is* a big place, and it would be
so nice to know I have someone watching over me in it...

I've gone into this with an open mind.  I've layed my beliefs aside
from time to time when I've had doubt, and I've prayed to see what
good that would do.  I don't see what more I can do to open myself to
your god, short of just deciding to believe for no good reason.  And
if I decide to believe for no good reason, why not believe in some
other god?  Zeus seems like a pretty cool candidate...

All I know is that in all my searching, even though I've set aside my
pride and decided that I want to know the truth no matter how
difficult it may be to accept, I have never had any encounter with any
deity, Christian or otherwise.

Please tell me what more I can do while still remaining true to myself.

Does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks
for sounding rockets?

[Dan's article deleted]

I found the same add in our local Sunday newspaper.
The add was placed in the ..... cartoon section!
The perfect place for it ! :-)

  If the emphasis is on the "in general", then of course you're
  correct, since you haven't really said anything.  If we restrict
  our observations to practiced religions, there are lots of
  examples of god mandated genocide.  Just ask the Canaanites.  The
  point is that if you believe in a god, and if you believe he has
  ordered you to eliminate an entire race, you will likely make the
  attempt.  After all, if it was OK in the past, it could surely be
  OK in the present.

Apologies if this gets posted twice, but I don't think the first one
made it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
   FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE           Contact:  OASIS (310) 364-2290

   15 April 1993                                Los Angeles, CA

     LOCAL NATIONAL SPACE SOCIETY CHAPTERS SPONSOR TALK BY L.A.
  ADVOCATE OF LUNAR POWER SYSTEM AS ENERGY SOURCE FOR THE WORLD

   On April 21, the OASIS and Ventura County chapters of the National 
Space Society will sponsor a talk by Lunar Power System (LPS) co-
inventor and vice-president of the LPS Coalition, Dr. Robert D.
Waldron.  It will be held at 7:30 p.m. at the Rockwell Science
Center in Thousand Oaks, CA.

   Dr. Waldron is currently a Technical Specialist in Space
Materials Processing with the Space Systems Division of Rockwell
International in Downey, California.  He is a recognized world
authority on lunar materials refinement.  He has written or
coauthored more than 15 articles or reports on nonterrestrial
materials processing or utilization.  Along with Dr. David
Criswell, Waldron invented the lunar/solar power system concept.

   Momentum is building for a coalition of entrepreneurs, legal
experts, and Soviet and U.S. scientists and engineers to build
the Lunar Power System, a pollution-free, energy source with a
potential to power the globe.

   For the past three years members of the coalition, nearly half
from California, have rejuvenated the commercial and scientific
concept of a solar power system based on the Moon.

   The LPS concept entails collecting solar energy on the lunar
surface and beaming the power to Earth as microwaves transmitted
through orbiting antennae.  A mature LPS offers an enormous
source of clean, sustainable power to meet the Earth's ever
increasing demand using proven, basic technology.

   OASIS (Organization for the Advancement of Space
Industrialization) is the Greater Los Angeles chapter of the
National Space Society, which is an international non-profit
organization that promotes development of the space frontier.
The Ventura County chapter is based in Oxnard, CA.

       WHERE:  Rockwell Science Center Auditorium, 1049 Camino
               Dos Rios, Thousand Oaks, CA.

Hi !!! This is the response for Wayne Michael...and certainly for other-one :-)

I'm sorry for...

    1)  The late of the answer but I couldn't find xv221 for msdos 'cause 
	I forgot the address...but I've retrieve it..

    2)  Posting this answer here in comp.graphics 'cause I can't use e-mail,
	not yet....

   2) My bad english 'cause I'm a Swiss and my language is french....

After a long time I retrieve the address where you can find XV for Dos...

	Site	: omnigate.clarkson.edu
	Aliases	: grape.ecs.clarkson.edu
	Number	: 128.153.4.2

	/pub/msdos/djgpp/pub

	it's xv221.zip (?) I think...

Certainly you read the other answer from Kevin Martin... He write about DV/X 
(?). 

    What is it ?????? Could Someone answer ????
	
	Thanx in advance.... 

-- 
*								    *
*  Pascal PERRET     		|	perret@eicn.etna.ch         *
*  Ecole d'ingénieur ETS	|	(Not Available at this time)*
*  2400 Le LOCLE		|				    *
*  Suisse 							    *
*		     !!!! Enjoy COMPUTER !!!!			    *
*								    *

Dr. Tahir Ijaz comments on Esam Abdel-Rahem's statement:

Mr. Jawad Ali then comments on Tahir Ijaz's statement:

"The converse would be that the problem is that Muslims dont consider
Ahmadies to be Muslims"

Which is a wrong statement. In the light of Dr. Ijaz's statement, the
above statement should be corrected:
".......................................is that (some) non-Ahmadi Muslims
don't consider Ahmadi-Muslims as Muslims"

So, the problem does not get solved:-) Who is a muslims and who is not?
Humans cannot decide. Humans may not declare others faiths. Its that 
simple. I don't understand, why the mere use of the word "ISLAM" is
becomming such a big issue. I have seen numorous postings on the net
on this subject, and all they say, "No, NO, you cannot use ISLAM as 
the name of your newsgroup". ?? 

I haven't seen a single posting stating what right do they have in declaring
the name of other's faiths? Who gives them this authority? Quran? or
Hadith? or something else? I want to know this! 

Just a small reminder to all my Muslim Brothers, Did _EVER_ the 
Holy Prophet of Islam (Muhammad PBUH), say to anyone who called
himself a Muslim:

No, You are not a Muslim ! ???????

NEVER! I challenge all my Muslim brothers to produce a single 
such evidence from the history of Islam!

Hence, if the Prophet Muhammad could never do that to anyone, how
could the Muslims, Mullahs or even Governments of today do
it to anyone. Do you consider yourself above the Holy Prophet 
Muhammad (PBUH) ?? 

Nabeel.

	Take a second look at "non-toxic, non-flammable":

		MACE (sold tothe public) is supposedly nontoxic.
		Whatthey do not tell you is that if you get mace directly
		on the linings of the lungs (such as a direct snort to
		the face) above certain quantities, it reacts similarly
		to a mustard gas inhalation.

			I know:  my father and grandfather were exposed
			to poison gas in WWI and WWII; Dad went through
			the side effects of any WEAPON, including those
			"non-toxic" aerosols.

		WHat the label ACTUALLY means is ::

			usually, it wont kill you
			it may give you permanent CSS asthsma
			but that's better than blowing a hole in your
				head ...

		ALL aerosols are flammable IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH OXYGEN
		AND HIT IT WITH THE RIGHT IGNITER.  SOme of the most
		non-flammable substances known will BOOM or SEARFLAME
		if you hit it with the right combo.

		Let's take one:  a trash can fire.  Makes black smoke;
		already burned right?  Can't go boom, right?  Wrong.

		Suck that smoke (made up of paper that has carbonized,
		or burned about 35% of the fuel in it) into an air
		conditioning return, mix with about 5:1 air, and light
		a match.  200 feet of conduit is about the same, when
		filled with that smoke mixture, as oh, say 200 pounds TNT

			THAT is why the fire codes say NO OPEN CEILING
			TILES IN BUILDINGS.  Because 3-5 stories of
			a building have blown OUT by "nonflammable _smoke_"

	So:
		Take a little "nonflammable aerosol"
		Mix with gasoline or kerosene fumes

			NO electricity, remeber?  A bit of heating
			on the WACO plains?  Boil water to drink
			since the water was cut off?

		liberally mix and allow to settle for 1-4 hours

		Fumes vent down into the bus underground, and the Davidians
		move the children UPSTAIRS to a saferoom (they had one,
		armor plated, remember?) to BREATH, because kids get sick
		and die from tear gas.

		and along comes a tracer, a spark, what have you:

			everyone burns to death.

Try thinking before opening mouth: it may not have happened the
way the Gmen say it did.

Never said you didn't publish, merely that there is data you don't
publish,  and that no-one scoriates you for those cases.  

IBM research  publishes plenty, it's why you ended up  with 2 Nobel
prizes in the last 10 years,  but that some projects are deemed
company confidential.  ATT Bell Labs,  keeps lots of stuff private,
Like Karamankars algorithm.  Private moeny is entitled to do what
it pleases, within the bounds of Law,  and For all the keepers of the
temple of SCience,  should please shove their pointy little heads
up their Conically shaped Posterior Orifices.   

pat

Computers are an excellent example...of evolution without "a" creator.
We did not "create" computers.  We did not create the sand that goes
into the silicon that goes into the integrated circuits that go into
processor board.  We took these things and put them together in an
interesting way. Just like plants "create" oxygen using light through 
photosynthesis.  It's a much bigger leap to talk about something that
created "everything" from nothing.  I find it unfathomable to resort
to believing in a creator when a much simpler alternative exists: we
simply are incapable of understanding our beginnings -- if there even
were beginnings at all.  And that's ok with me.  The present keeps me
perfectly busy.

Printer model and specification:

Canon CLC 500 (Color Laser Copier)
ps-ipu unit (postscript intelligent processing unit)

Hello,

We have recently purchased a very expensive and nice color copier/printer. 
We want to be able to print to it from our SGI iris network.  The 
copier/printer has both a parallel and SCSI interface.  I have configured the
printer with the "lp" system using the parallel interface and can print 
postscript files to the printer.  I can also print rgb files, but these are in 
turn converted to postscript by an internal filter.  The Canon CLC 500 is a 
publication quality printer but the quality of our postscript printouts 
are less than acceptable.  We create the postscript files with a variaty of 
programs, such as showcase, xv, and tops.  When we convert to postscript 
with tops and use the -l option to specify the halftone screen density of 98 
rather than the default 40 the output is better, but still much less that 
acceptable.  Note, that we are starting with a screen image in rgb image format
and translating the image into postscript.

We suspect that if we could use the SCSI interface we would get higher quality 
pictures.  We have not purchased the software that drives the printer from the 
SCSI port.  To my knowledge this software is $5000 and does not come with a 
warranty.  The management here does not want to spend this much money without 
some assurance that the product will work.

Here my questions:

If anybody on the net uses this printer are you using the SCSI or 
parallel port?  What is the quality of the printouts?

Is there a way to create high quality postscript printouts?  What is the
limiting component, the postscript language or the postscript interpretor on 
the printer?
 
The Big question:

Where can I get some software to drive the SCSI port for this printer?

Please email directly to me, I don't not read news on a regular basis. 
I will post a summary.

No cookies, Charlie. The claims that Jesus have been seen are discredited
as extraordinary claims that don't match their evidence. In this case, it
is for one that the gospels cannot even agree if it was Jesus who has been
seen. Further, there are zillions of other spook stories, and one would
hardly consider others even in a religious context to be some evidence of
a resurrection.
 
There have been more elaborate arguments made, but it looks as if they have
not passed your post filtering.
 
It is no evidence in the strict meaning. If there was actual evidence it would
probably be part of it, but the says nothing about the claims.
 
Mr. Meritt, please state explicitly the inductive argument which leads
you to conclude Mr. Tice thinks it "OK" to take biblical quotes out of
context in some other t.r.m. articles.

Also, please explain why you rely on inductive reasoning (with its
implicit uncertainty) in determining Mr. Tice's opinions when the man
is himself clearly available for questioning.

Finally, please indicate whether you agree (yes or no) with the
following statement:

On 15 Apr 1993 22:34:40 GMT, Eric Sieferman observed:

: Christian:  washed in the blood of the lamb.
: Mithraist:  washed in the blood of the bull.

: If anyone in .netland is in the process of devising a new religion,
: do not use the lamb or the bull, because they have already been
: reserved.  Please choose another animal, preferably one not
: on the Endangered Species List.  

How about "washed in the blood of Barney the Dinosaur"?  :)

  If the Anne Frank exhibit makes it to your small little world,
  take an afternoon to go see it.  

The only ether I see here is the stuff you must
have been breathing before you posted...

First I've heard of it. Offhand:

Griffin is no longer an "office" head, so that's bad.

On the other hand:

Regress seemed to think: we can't fund anything by Griffin, because
that would mean (and we have the lies by the old hardliners about the
$ 400 billion mars mission to prove it) that we would be buying into a
mission to Mars that would cost 400 billion. Therefore there will be
no Artemis or 20 million dollar lunar orbiter et cetera...

They were killing Griffin's main program simply because some sycophants
somewhere had Congress beleivin that to do so would simply be to buy into
the same old stuff. Sorta like not giving aid to Yeltsin because he's
a communist hardliner.

At least now the sort of reforms Griffin was trying to bring forward
won't be trapped in their own little easily contained and defunded
ghetto. That Griffin is staying in some capacity is very very very
good. And if he brings something up, noone can say "why don't you go
back to the OSE where you belong" (and where he couldn't even get money
for design studies).

I don't think so at first,  but solid state offered  better reliabity,
id bet,  and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up.

Yes.

Please describe these "number of ways" in detail.  Then explain the any
contradictions that may arise.

Define "difficult".

Explain the laws in America stating that you have to drive on the right-
hand side of the road.

So if every member of the species was homosexual, this wouldn't be destructive
to the survival of the species?

The whole "theory" needs to be reexamined...

I assume that you are talking about the appeals processes, etc.?
Well, it should be noted that people who are imprisoned for life
will also tend to appeal (though not quite as much in the "final
hours."

Anyway, economics is not a very good reason to either favor or oppose
the punishment.

We have been using Iterated Systems compression board to compress 
pathology images and are getting ratios of 40:1 to 70:1 without too
much loss in quality. It is taking about 4 mins per image to compress,
on a 25Mhz 486 but decompression is almost real time on a 386 in software 
alone.

Yes, worshipping Jesus as the super-saver is indeed hero-worshipping
of the grand scale. Worshipping Lenin that will make life pleasant
for the working people is, eh, somehow similar, or what.
 
The notion of Lenin was on the borderline of supernatural insights
into how to change the world, he wasn't a communist God, but he was
the man who gave presents to kids during Christmas.
 
Don't know what they were, but they were fanatics indeed.

Cheers,
Kent

  Nut or not, he was clearly a liar.  He said he would surrender after
  local radio stations broadcast his message, but he didn't.  Then he
  said he would surrender after Passover, but he didn't.

  None of which excuses the gross incompetence and disregard for the
  safety of the children displayed by the feds.   As someone else
  pointed out, if it had been Chelsea Clinton in there you would 
  probably have seen more restraint.

I am interested in any information on stereoscopic imaging on a sun
workstation.  For the most part, I need to know if there is any hardware
available to interface the system and whether the refresh rates are
sufficient to produce quality image representations.  Any information
about the subject would be greatly appreciated.

Has ANYONE who has ordered the new PC version of Imagine ACTUALLY recieved
it yet?   I'm just about ready to order but reading posts about people still
awaiting delivery are making me a little paranoid.  Has anyone actually 
held this piece of software in their own hands?

Later,

Boy, this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an FAQ:

Given 4 points (non coplanar), how does one find the sphere, that is,
center and radius, exactly fitting those points?  I know how to do it
for a circle (from 3 points), but do not immediately see a 
straightforward way to do it in 3-D.  I have checked some
geometry books, Graphics Gems, and Farin, but am still at a loss?
Please have mercy on me and provide the solution?  

Thanks,
Ed

It may be that they just didn't mention it, or that they actually haven't 
thought about it.  I got the vague impression from their mission proposal
that they weren't taking a very holistic aproach to the whole thing.  They
seemed to want to land people on the Moon by the end of the decade without 
explaining why, or what they would do once they got there.  The only application
I remember from the Av Week article was placing a telescope on the Moon.  That's
great, but they don't explain why it can't be done robotically. 

But I'm a _member_.  Besides Bill, I hang out with you :) 

Well,

42 is 101010 binary, and who would forget that its the
answer to the Question of "Life, the Universe, and Everything else."
That is to quote Douglas Adams in a round about way.

Of course the Question has not yet been discovered...

--
Mark A. Cartwright, N5SNP
University of Texas @ Austin
Computation Center, Graphics Facility
markc@emx.utexas.edu
markc@sirius.cc.utexas.edu
markc@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu
(512)-471-3241 x 362

PP-ASEL 9-92

Hello, I am looking for commercial software packages for professional
fashion designers.  Any recommendation and pointers are greatly appreciated.
Please e-mail me, if you may.  Thanks a million.  -- Ge

on Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1993 12:38:50 GMT, Paul Dietz <dietz@cs.rochester.edu>

/in essence, holding a match under the nozzle, is just *nuts*.  One
/thing you absolutely must do in such an engine is to guarantee that
/the propellants ignite as soon as they mix, within milliseconds.  To
/do otherwise is to fill your engine with a high explosive mixture
/which, when it finally does ignite, blows everything to hell.

Definitely! In one of the reports of an early test conducted by Rocketdyne at 
their Santa Susanna Field Lab ("the Hill" above the San Fernando and Simi 
Valleys), the result of a hung start was described as "structural failure" of 
the combustion chamber.  The inspection picture showed pumps with nothing below
, the CC had vaporized!  This was described in a class I took as a "typical
engineering understatement" :-)

Hi there,

is there anybody who know a polygon_reduction algorithm for
marching cube surfaces. e.g. the algirithm of Schroeder,
Siggraph'92.

For any hints, hugs and kisses.

- Erwin

Hi, this is my first msg to the Net (actually the 3rd copy of it, dam*ed VI!!).

  Look for the new VPIC6.0, it comes with updated VESA 1.2 drivers for almost every known card. The VESA level is 1.2, and my Tseng4000 24-bit has a nice affair with the driver. 

  Hope it is useful!!

: Upon arriving at home, Joseph probably took advantage of Mary...had his way
: with her so to speak.  Of course, word of this couldn't get around so Mary,
: being the highly-religious follower that she was decided "Hey, I'll just say
: that GOD impregnated me...no one will ever know!"
: 
: Thus, seen as a trustworthy and honorable soul, she was believed...
:     
: And then came Jesus, the child born from violence.
: 
: 
: 

Dave,

Can you explain the purpose of your post, I can't imagine what you
must have thougt it meant. 

Very well put.  And, in the case of someone who calls himself a Christian
brother yet continues in his sin (and claims that his sin is not a sin at 
all, but perfectly acceptable), what should be done?  Should Christians 
just ignore a sinful lifestyle in order to not offend the person?  By 
reaffirming that the lifestyle is sinful according to the Bible, are 
they using "a bullwhip to drive people from Jesus"? 

Frankly, I find the occurance of a homosexual Christian attempting to 
pass himself off as a 'straight' Christian in order to have other 
Christians accept his chastisement better a *lot* more serious than 
people reaffirming that the Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin.  

The interesting notion is that (I watched TV tonight) Koresh never
claimed officially to be Jesus Christ. His believers hoped that 
he would be, but he never took this standpoint himself.

He was more interested in breaking the seven seals of Revelation,
and make sure that Armageddon would start. Well it did, and 19
children died, and no God saved them.

Kent

It was more than a theoretical concept; it was seriously pursued by
Freeman Dyson et al many years ago. I don't know how well-known this is,
but a high explosive Orion prototype flew (in the atmosphere) in San
Diego back in 1957 or 1958. I was working at General Atomic at the time,
but I didn't learn about the experiment until almost thirty years later,
when 
Ted Taylor visited us and revealed that it had been done. I feel sure
that someone must have film of that experiment, and I'd really like to
see it. Has anyone out there seen it?

Our Lord and Savior David Keresh has risen!

	He has been seen alive!

	Spread the word!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm using "rayshade" on the u.w. computers here, and i'd like input
from other users, and perhaps swap some ideas.  I could post
uuencoded .gifs here, or .ray code, if anyone's interested.  I'm having
trouble coming up with colors that are metallic (i.e. brass, steel)
from the RGB values.

If you're on the u.w. machines, check out "~fineman/rle.files/*.rle" on 
stein.u.washington.edu for some of what i've got.  

Hi:

I am digitizing a NTSC signal and displaying on a PC video monitor.
It is known that the display response of tubes is non-linear and is
sometimes said to follow Gamma-Law. I am not certain if these
non-linearities are "Gamma-corrected" before encoding NTSC signals
or if the TV display is supposed to correct this.
 
Also, if  256 grey levels, for example, are coded in a C program do
these intensity levels appear with linear brightness on a PC
monitor? In other words does PC monitor display circuitry
correct for "gamma errrors"?
 
Your response is much appreciated.
 
Amjad.

The Centaur that is being built for T4 would be a better bet to integrate 
onto the Proton as the T4/Centaur is designed for the Extremely Harsh 
envorinment of the T4 launch. It is also closer to 4 m in diameter. 

You've hit on the real kicker, however. The Centaur is pressure stabilized. 
It cannot hold up its own weight without pressure in the tanks. Additionally, 
the pressure difference between the two tanks must be maintained to ~+/- 5 psi. 
That is rather tight to be rocking and rolling on the train. The pressure 
stabilization is how centaur achieves the performance. On numerous occasions
(when I was there 88-91) the AF wanted to see what it would take to make 
a non-pressure stabilized centaur. The answer -- a centaur not worth launching. 

The Atlas/Centaur does not require on-pad integration, however the T4/Centaur
does. I believe the on-pad integration is to a great extent due to the 
cleanliness requirements and PFL configuration, so maybe something can be 
done there........

The addition of LOX/LH facilities is critical as the centaur tops off as it 
lifts off. A LHe facility is also needed. I don't know what the proton uses 
for fuel, but since they are derived from ICBM's I would suspect that they 
use storable propellants which don't have the ullage problem that cryo's 
do. If there is no cryo at the sight at all, the addition of these systems 
could be big $$, not to mention the real tech transfer issues involved with 
providing centaur GSE to Russia. That issue alone might be enough to kill 
this idea. 

   McDonnell Douglas rolls out DC-X

 ...

   SSTO research remains cloudy.  The SDI Organization -- which paid $60
   million for the DC-X -- can't itself afford to fund full development of a
   follow-on vehicle.  To get the necessary hundreds of millions required for

This is a little peculiar way of putting it, SDIO's budget this year
was, what, $3-4 billion? They _could_ fund all of the DC development
out of one years budget - of course they do have other irons in the
fire ;-) and launcher development is not their primary purpose, but
the DC development could as easily be paid for by diverting that money
as by diverting the comparable STS ops budget...

- oh, and before the flames start. I applaud the SDIO for funding DC-X
devlopment and I hope it works, and, no, launcher development is not
NASAs primary goal either, IMHO they are supposed to provide the
enabling technology research for others to do launcher development,
and secondarily operate such launchers as they require - but that's
just me.

Wrong...the major improvements for 2.01 and 2.01a are in the use of IPAS routines
for 3d studio.  They have increased in speed anywhere from 30-200% depending
on which ones you use.

Does anybody out there have or know how to calculate the RGB values 
required to set the 256 color VGA palette so that the colors from 
0..255 will give 256 colors  of the rainbow ie red, orange, 
yellow, etc.

Any help would be appreciated. Please email to eeerik@cc.newcastle.edu.au

   >Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method :-)

   Sherzer Methodology!!!!!!

Hell, yes. I'm not going to let a bunch of seven suits tell
me what the right way to estimate cost effectiveness is, at
least not until they can make their mind up long enough
to leave their scheme stable for a fiscal year or two.

Seriously though. If you were to ask the British government
whether their colonisation efforts in the Americas were cost
effective, what answer do you think you'd get? What if you asked
in 1765, 1815, 1865, 1915 and 1945 respectively? ;-)

Sorry, Bryan, this is not quite correct. Remember the VGALIB package that comes
with Linux/SLS? It will switch to VGA 320x200x256 mode *without* Xwindows.
So at least it is *possible* to write a GIF viewer under Linux. However I don't
think that there exists a similar SVGA package, and viewing GIFs in 320x200 is
not very nice.

Best Regards,

Arno

-- 
Arno Schaefer				ENSIMAG, 2e Annee
Email: schaefer@silene.imag.fr
Tel.: (33) 76 51 79 95			:-)

Definitely, J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, numero uno, top dog, not one can touch, not
one can knock Bob out of the box. Bob kills me mon! Everyday!

But close El Segundo (el subliminal) is the infamous Paul (birthname Saul) the
Evangeline who became famous as a result of his numerous trampoline act 
tours of the eastern Mediterranean.

Does anyone know of a VL-Bus video card based on the ET4000 /W32 card?
If so: how much will it cost, where can I get one, does it come with more
than 1MB of ram, and what is the windows performance like?

There is a program called Graphic Workshop you can FTP from
wuarchive.  The file is in the msdos/graphics directory and
is called "grfwk61t.zip."  This program should od everthing
you need.

-- 

Probably we would have much the same problems with only a slight shift in
emphasis.  Weekends might not be so inviolate (more common to work 7 days
a week in a business), and instead of American Atheists, we would have
similar, religious organizations.  A persons religious belief seems more
as a crutch and justification for actions than a guide to determine actions.
Of course, people would have to come up with more fascinating 
rationalizations for their actions, but that could be fun to watch...

It seems to me, that for most people, religion in America doesn't matter
that much.  You have extreemists on both ends, but a large majority don't
make too much of an issue about it as long as you don't.  Now, admittedly,
I have never had to suffer the "Bible Belt", but I am just north of it
and see the fringes, and the reasonable people in most things tend to be
reasonable in religion as well.  

I don't bother according a higher value to my thinking, or just about
anybodys thinking.  I don't want to fall in that trap.  Because if you 
do start that, then you are then to decide which is better, says whom,
why, is there a best, and also what to do about those who have inferior
modes of thinking.  IDIC  (Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.)
I'll argue it over a soda, but not over much more.

Just my $.12  (What inflation has done...)

: > Sure it isn't mutually exclusive, but it lends weight to (i.e. increases
: > notional running estimates of the posterior probability of) the 
: > atheist's pitch in the partition, and thus necessarily reduces the same 
: > quantity in the theist's pitch. This is because the `divine component' 
: > falls prey to Ockham's Razor, the phenomenon being satisfactorily 
:                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > explained without it, and there being no independent evidence of any 
:   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > such component. More detail in the next post.
: > 

Occam's Razor is not a law of nature, it is way of analyzing an
argument, even so, it interesting how often it's cited here and to
what end. 
It seems odd that religion is simultaneously condemned as being
primitive, simple-minded and unscientific, anti-intellectual and
childish, and yet again condemned as being too complex (Occam's
razor), the scientific explanation of things being much more
straightforeward and, apparently, simpler. Which is it to be - which
is the "non-essential", and how do you know?
Considering that even scientists don't fully comprehend science due to
its complexity and diversity. Maybe William of Occam has performed a
lobotomy, kept the frontal lobe and thrown everything else away ...

This is all very confusing, I'm sure one of you will straighten me out
tough.

Hi ,

	I am looking for a polygon fill routine to fill 
	simple 4 sided polygons .

	Can some one who has this routine in C help me in 
	saving my "REINVENTING" time.

	Thanx in advance .....

The Delaunay triangulation is the geometrical dual of the 
Voronoi tessellation and both constructions are derived from
natural neighbor order.

Aurenhammer, F., 1991, Voronoi Diagrams - A Survey of a 
Fundamental Geometric Data Structure:
ACM Computing Surveys, 23(3), p. 345-405. 

Okabe, A., Boots, B., and Sugihara, K., 1992, Spatial 
tessellations : concepts and applications of Voronoi diagrams: 
Wiley & Sons, New York, ISBN 0 471 93430 5, 532p.

Watson, D.F., 1981, Computing the n-dimensional Delaunay 
tessellation with application to Voronoi polytopes: 
The Computer J., 24(2), p. 167-172.}

Watson, D.F., 1985, Natural neighbour sorting: The Australian 
Computer J., 17(4), p. 189-193. 

[deletions...]

First of all, infinity is a mathematical concept created by humans
to explain certain things in a certain way. We don't know if it actually
applies to reality, we don't know if anything in the world is infinite.

You don't know if the universe is actually continuous. Continuum is another
mathematical concept (based on infinity) used to explain things in a certain
way.

I have a pretty good idea of what infinity is. It's a man-made concept, and
like many man-made concepts, it has evolved through time. Ancient Greeks had
a different understanding of it.

Precicely. We don't even know if infinity applies to reality.

The quotation marks should enclose "laws," not "must."

If there were no such rules, even instinctive ones or unwritten ones,
etc., then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society
into chaos.

I'm sure the whole newspaper is copyrighted.  They could have gotten
permission to use the image under their own copyright.

Well, I could use the argument that some here use about "nature" and claim
that you cannot have superhuman powers because you are a human; superhuman
powers are beyond what a human has, and since you are a human, any powers
you have are not beyond those of a human.  Hence, you cannot have superhuman
powers.  Sound good to you?

Anyway, to the evidence question: it depends on the context.  In this group,
since you are posting from a american college site, I'm willing to take it
as given that you have a pair of blue jeans.  And, assuming there is some
coherency in your position, I will take it as a given that you do not have
superhuman powers.  Arguments are evidence in themselves, in some respects.

Yep.

Good.

"Extra" evidence?  Why don't we start with evidence at all?

I cannot see any evidence for the V. B. which the cynics in this group would
ever accept.  As for the second, it is the foundation of the religion.
Anyone who claims to have seen the risen Jesus (back in the 40 day period)
is a believer, and therefore is discounted by those in this group; since
these are all ancients anyway, one again to choose to dismiss the whole
thing.  The third is as much a metaphysical relationship as anything else--
even those who agree to it have argued at length over what it *means*, so
again I don't see how evidence is possible.

I thus interpret the "extraordinary claims" claim as a statement that the
speaker will not accept *any* evidence on the matter.

Of course, I do not agree.  It does have more horsepower.  Horsepower is not
the only measurement for 'better'.  It does not have full motion, full screen
video yet.  Does it have CD-ROM XA?

Which other manufacturers?
We shall see about the date.

This is second hand, but it still hard to look to the future ;-).

I'm not saying this at all - it requires no faith on my part to
say the car drives because I've seen it drive - I've done more
than at in fact - I've actually driven it. (now what does require
some faith is the belief that my senses give an accurate representation
of what's out there....) But there is NO evidence - pro or con -
for the existence or non-existence of God (see what I have to
say below on this).

Sorry if I remain skeptical - I don't believe it's entirely a
conclusion. That you have seen no evidence that there IS a God
is correct - neither have I. But lack of evidence for the existence 
of something is in NO WAY evidence for the non-existence of something 
(the creationist have a similar mode of argumentation in which if they 
disprove evolution the establish creation). You (personally) have never 
seen a neutrino before, but they exist. The "pink unicorn" analogy breaks
down and is rather naive. I have a scientific theory that explains the 
appearance of animal life - evolution. When I draw the conclusion that 
"pink unicorns" don't exist because I haven't seen them, this conclusion
has it's foundation in observation and theory. A "pink unicorn", if
it did exist, would be qualitatively similar to other known entities.
That is to say, since there is good evidence that all life on earth has
evolved from "more primitive" ancestors these pink unicorns would share 
a common anscestory with horses and zebras and such. God, however,
has no such correspondence with anything (IMO). There is no physical
frame work of observation to draw ANY conclusions FROM. 

I disagree with you profoundly on this. I haven't defined God as
existence - in fact, I haven't defined God. But this might be
getting off the subject - although if you think it's relevant
we can come back to it. 

You are using wrong categories here - or perhaps you misunderstand
what I'm saying. I'm making no argument what so ever and offering no
definition so there is no fallacy. I'm not trying to convince you of
anything. *I* Believe - and that rests upon Faith. And it is inappropriate
to apply the category of logic in this realm (unless someone tells you
that they can logically prove God or that they have "evidence" or ...,
then the use of logic to disprove their claims if fine and necessary).

BTW, an incomplete argument is not a fallacy - some things are not
EVEN wrong. 

I don't follow you here. Certainly one can make observations of
things that they didn't know existed. I still maintain that one
cannot use observation to infer that "God does not exist". Such
a positive assertion requires a leap.  

Once again you seem to completely misunderstand me. I have no
EVIDENCE that "'god is' is meaningful" at ANY level. Maybe such
a response as you gave just comes naturally to you because so
many people try to run their own private conception of God down
your throat. I, however, am not doing this. I am arguing one, and
only one, thing - that to make a positive assertion about something
for which there can in principle be no evidence for or against
requires a leap - it requires faith. I am, as you would say, a
"theist"; however, there is a form of atheism that I can respect -
but it must be founded upon honesty. 

 A cash award is OK. A time limit would be nice. You can't give away
mining rights (assuming there's anything to mine) because you don't own
them.

That is an idea.. The most efficient moon habitat.. 

also the idea of how to get the people off the moon once the prize was won..

Also the idea of how to rescue someone who is "dying" on the moon.

Maybe have a area where they can all "see" each other, and can help each other
if something happens.. 

I liek the idea of one prize for the first moon landing and return, by a
non-governmental body..

Also the idea of then having a moon habitat race.. 

I know we need to do somthing to get people involved..

Eccentric millionaire/billionaire would be nice.. We see how old Ross feels
about it.. After all it would be a great promotional thing and a way to show he
does care about commericalization and the people.. Will try to broach the
subject to him.. 

Moonbase on the cheap is a good idea.. NASA and friends seem to take to much
time and give us to expensive stuff that of late does not work (hubble and
such). Basically what is the difference between a $1mil peice of junk and a
multi $1mil piece of junk.. I know junk..

For those of you who don't need 24 bit, I got a 32 colour Amiga IFF
of a cloudless Earth (scanned). Looks okay when mapped on a sphere.
E-mail me and I'll send it you...

Louis

The difficulties of a high Isp OTV include:
Long transfer times (radiation damage from VanAllen belts for both
 the spacecraft and OTV
Arcjets or Xenon thrusters require huge amounts of power so you have
to have either nuclear power source (messy, dangerous and source of
radiation damage) or BIG solar arrays (sensitive to radiation, or heavy)
that make attitude control and docking a big pain.

If you go solar, you have to replace the arrays every trip, with
current technology. Nuclear power sources are strongly restricted
by international treaty.

Refueling (even for very high Isp like xenon) is still required and]
turn out to be a pain.

You either have to develop autonomous rendezvous or long range teleoperation
to do docking or    ( and refueling) .

You still can't do much plane change because the deltaV required is so high!

The Air Force continues to look at doing things this way though. I suppose
they are biding their time till the technology becomes available and
the problems get solved.  Not impossible in principle, but hard to
do and marginally cheaper than one shot rockets, at least today.

Just a few random thoughts on high Isp OTV's. I designed one once...

The amount of energy being spent on ONE LOUSY SYLLOGISM says volumes for the
true position of reason in this group.

Check out Image Pals v1.2 from U-Lead (until May, special $99 intro price,
310-523-9393). It has the basic image processing tools for all major formats,
does screen grabbing, and allows all your image files to be calalogged into
a thumbnail database. It's great!

I have never been to Wisconsin, though I have been to
neighbor Minnesota. Being a child of the Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA)
I found that there were few states in the provences that stood
out in this youngster's mind: California, Texas, and Florida to 
name the most obvious three.  However, both Minnesota and Wisconsin
stuck out, solely on the basis of their politics.  Both have 
always translated to extremely liberal and progressive states.
And my recent trip to Minnestoa last summer served to support that
state's reputation.  My guess is that Wisconsin is probably the
same.  At least that was the impression the people of Minnesota left
with me about their neighbors.

The only question in my head about Wisconsin, though, is 
whether or not there is a cause-effect relationship between
cheese and serial killers :)

As far as I know, tigers are not sentient.  If I were pushed into a pool with
some dolphins and they attacked me, I might be inclined to blame the dolphins
rather than the person doing the pushing, as (a) dolphins are not usually
aggressive and (b) they seem to have well-developed brains and a capacity for
abstract thought.

As a matter of fact, tigers rarely attack humans unless the human provokes
them.  Of course, if they are in a cage which is far too small, that might
count as provocation...

: Concerning the proposed newsgroup split, I personally am not in favor of
: doing this.  I learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading
: this group, from code to hardware to algorithms.  I just think making 5
: different groups out of this is a wate, and will only result in a few posts
: a week per group.  I kind of like the convenience of having one big forum
: for discussing all aspects of graphics.  Anyone else feel this way?
: Just curious.

: Daemon

What he said...

-- 

The Apollo program cost something like $25 billion at a time when
the value of a dollar was worth more than it is now. No one would 
take the offer.

No, VGALIB?  Amazing..  I guess it was lost in all those subdirs :-)
Thanks for correcting me.  It doesn't sound very appealing though, only
320x200?  I'm glad it wasn't something major I missed.

Hi,

	I have a few question about graphics programming in VGA/SVGA :

1. How VESA standard works?  Any documentation for VESA standard?

2. At a higher resolution than 320x200x256 or 640x480x16 VGA mode,
   where the video memory A0000-AFFFF is no longer sufficient to hold
   all info, what is the trick to do fast image manipulation?  I
   heard about memory mapping or video memory bank switching but know
   nothing on how it is implemented.   Any advice, anyone?  

3. My interest is in 640x480x256 mode.  Should this mode be called
   SVGA mode?  What is the technique for fast image scrolling for the
   above mode?  How to deal with different SVGA cards?

  Your guidance to books or any other sources to the above questions
would be greatly appreciated.  Please send me mail.

  Thanks in advance!

************************************************************************
*                         Tiang   T.    Foo                            *
*		      tiang@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu 		       *
************************************************************************    

And does it not say in scripture that no man knows the hour of His coming, not
even the angels in Heaven but only the Father Himself?  DK was trying to play
God by breaking the seals himself.  DK killed himself and as many of his
followers as he could.  BTW, God did save the children.  They are in Heaven,
a far better place.  How do I know?  By faith.

: 
[ . . . . . ]
:
: Personally, I feel that since religion have such a poweful
: psychological effect, we should let theists be.  But the problem is that
: religions cause enormous harm to non-believers and to humanity as a whole
: (holy wars, inquisitions, inter-religious hatred, impedence of science
: & intellectual progress, us-&-them attitudes etc etc.  Need I say more?).
: I really don't know what we can do about them.  Any comments?
: 

  I have always held that there should be no attempt to change a persons
attitude or lifestyle as long as it makes them happy and does not tax
anybody else. This seems to be ok for atheists. You don't get an atheist
knocking on your door, stopping you in the airport, or handing out
literature at a social event. Theists seem to think that thier form of
happy should work for others and try to make it so. 

  My sister is a 
born again, and she was a real thorn in the side for my entire family
for several years. She finally got the clue that she couldn't help.
During that period she bought me "I was atheist, now I'm Xtian" books
for my birthday and Xmas several times. Our birthday cards would contain
verses. It was a problem. I told my mom that I was going to send my
sister an atheist piece of reading material. I got a "Don't you dare".
My mom wasn't religious. Why did she insist that I not send it ??

   Because our society has driven into us that religion is ok to
preach, non-religion should be self contained. What a crock of shit.
I finally told my sister that I didn't find her way of life attractive.
I have seen exactly 0 effort from her on trying to convert me since then.

   I'm sick of religious types being pampered, looked out for, and WORST
OF ALL . . . . respected more than atheists. There must be an end
in sight.

   Sean, the 68070 exists! :-)

   Sean, I don't want to get into a 'mini-war' by what I am going to say,
but I have to be a little bit skeptic about the performance you are
claiming on the Centris, you'll see why (please, no-flames, I reserve
those for c.s.m.a :-) )

   I was in Chicago in the last consumer electronics show, and Apple had a
booth there.  I walked by, and they were showing real-time video capture
using a (Radious or SuperMac?) card to digitize and make right on the spot
quicktime movies.  I think the quicktime they were using was the old one
(1.5).

   They digitized a guy talking there in 160x2xx something.  It played back quite
nicely and in real time.  The guy then expanded the window (resized) to 25x by
3xx (320 in y I think) and the frame rate decreased enough to notice that it
wasn't 30fps (or about 30fps) anymore.  It dropped to like 15 fps.  Then he
increased it just a bit more, and it dropped to 10<->12 fps. 

   Then I asked him what Mac he was using... He was using a Quadra (don't know
what model, 900?) to do it, and he was telling the guys there that the Quicktime
could play back at the same speed even on an LCII.

   Well, I spoiled his claim so to say, since a 68040 Quadra Mac was having
a little bit of trouble.  And this wasn't even from the hardisk!  This was
from memory!

   Could it be that you saw either a newer version of quicktime, or some
hardware assisted Centris, or another software product running the 
animation (like supposedly MacroMind's Accelerator?)?

   Don't misunderstand me, I just want to clarify this.

   But for the sake of the posting about a computer doing it or not, I can
claim 320x200 (a tad more with overscan) being done in 256,000+ colors in 
my computer (not from the hardisk) at 30fps with Scala MM210.

   But I agree, if we consider MPEG stuff, I think a multimedia consumer
low-priced box has a lot of market... I just think 3DO would make it, 
no longer CD-I.

Nope, you're confusing separate programs.  Atlas was the first-generation
US ICBM; Titan I was the second-generation one; Titan II, which all the
Titan launchers are based on, was the third-generation heavy ICBM.  There
was essentially nothing in common between these three programs.

(Yes, *three* programs.  Despite the similarity of names, Titan I and
Titan II were completely different missiles.  They didn't even use the
same fuels, never mind the same launch facilities.)

Archive-name: space/launchers
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:11 $

ORBITAL AND PLANETARY LAUNCH SERVICES

The following data comes from _International Reference Guide to Space Launch
Systems_ by Steven J. Isakowitz, 1991 edition.

Notes:
    * Unless otherwise specified, LEO and polar paylaods are for a 100 nm
	orbit.
    * Reliablity data includes launches through Dec, 1990. Reliabity for a
	familiy of vehicles includes launches by types no longer built when
	applicable
    * Prices are in millions of 1990 $US and are subject to change.
    * Only operational vehicle families are included. Individual vehicles
	which have not yet flown are marked by an asterisk (*) If a vehicle
	had first launch after publication of my data, it may still be
	marked with an asterisk.

Vehicle        |     Payload  kg  (lbs)   | Reliability | Price | Launch Site
(nation)       |  LEO	   Polar    GTO   |		|	| (Lat. & Long.)

Ariane					    35/40  87.5%	  Kourou
(ESA)								 (5.2 N, 52.8 W)
  AR40		4,900	  3,900    1,900    1/1		  $65m
	       (10,800)  (8,580)  (4,190)
  AR42P		6,100	  4,800    2,600    1/1		  $67m
	       (13,400)  (10,600) (5,730)
  AR44P		6,900	  5,500    3,000    0/0 ?	  $70m
	       (15,200)  (12,100) (6,610)
  AR42L		7,400	  5,900    3,200    0/0 ?	  $90m
	       (16,300)  (13,000) (7,050)
  AR44LP	8,300	  6,600    3,700    6/6		  $95m
	       (18,300)  (14,500) (8,160)
  AR44L		9,600	  7,700    4,200    3/4		  $115m
	       (21,100)  (16,900) (9,260)

* AR5	       18,000	   ???	   6,800    0/0		  $105m
	      (39,600)		  (15,000)
	       [300nm]

Atlas					   213/245 86.9%	 Cape Canaveral
(USA)								 (28.5 N, 81.0W)
  Atlas E	 --	   820	     --     15/17	  $45m	 Vandeberg AFB
			  (1,800)				(34.7 N, 120.6W)

  Atlas I	5,580	  4,670    2,250    1/1		  $70m
	       (12,300)  (10,300) (4,950)

  Atlas II	6,395	  5,400    2,680    0/0		  $75m
	       (14,100)  (11,900) (5,900)

  Atlas IIA	6,760	  5,715    2,810    0/0		  $85m
	       (14,900)  (12,600) (6,200)

* Atlas IIAS	8,390	  6,805    3,490    0/0		  $115m
	       (18,500)  (15,000) (7,700)

Delta					   189/201 94.0%	 Cape Canaveral
(USA)								 Vandenberg AFB
  Delta 6925	3,900	  2,950    1,450   14/14	  $45m
	       (8,780)	 (6,490)  (3,190)

  Delta 7925	5,045	  3,830    1,820    1/1		  $50m
	       (11,100)  (8,420)  (2,000)

Energia					    2/2  100%		 Baikonur
(Russia)							 (45.6 N 63.4 E)
  Energia      88,000	 80,000     ???     2/2		  $110m
	      (194,000) (176,000)

H series				    22/22 100%		 Tangeshima
(Japan)								(30.2 N 130.6 E)
* H-2	       10,500	 6,600	   4,000    0/0		  $110m
	      (23,000)	(14,500)  (8,800)

Kosmos					   371/377 98.4%	 Plestek
(Russia)							 (62.8 N 40.1 E)
  Kosmos      1100 - 1350  (2300 - 3000)		 $???	 Kapustin Yar
	      [400 km orbit ??? inclination]			 (48.4 N 45.8 E)

Long March				    23/25 92.0%		 Jiquan SLC
(China)								 (41 N	100 E)
* CZ-1D		 720	  ???	    200     0/0		  $10m	 Xichang SLC
		(1,590)		   (440)			 (28 N	102 E)
								 Taiyuan SLC
  CZ-2C		3,200	  1,750    1,000    12/12	  $20m	 (41 N	100 E)
	       (7,040)	 (3,860)  (2,200)

  CZ-2E		9,200	   ???	   3,370    1/1		  $40m
	       (20,300)		  (7,430)

* CZ-2E/HO     13,600	   ???	   4,500    0/0		  $???
	      (29,900)		  (9,900)

  CZ-3		???	   ???	   1,400    6/7		  $33m
				  (3,100)

* CZ-3A		???	   ???	   2,500    0/0		  $???m
				  (5,500)

  CZ-4		4,000	   ???	   1,100    2/2		  $???m
	       (8,800)		  (2,430)

Pegasus/Taurus				    2/2   100%		Peg:  B-52/L1011
(USA)								Taur: Canaveral
  Pegasus	 455	   365	    125     2/2		  $10m	  or Vandenberg
		(1,000)   (800)    (275)

* Taurus	1,450	  1,180     375     0/0		  $15m
	       (3,200)	 (2,600)   (830)

Proton					   164/187 87.7%	 Baikonour
(Russia)
  Proton       20,000	   ???	   5,500   164/187	  $35-70m
	      (44,100)		  (12,200)

SCOUT					    99/113 87.6%	Vandenberg AFB
(USA)								Wallops FF
  SCOUT G-1	 270	   210	    54	    13/13	  $12m	(37.9 N  75.4 W)
		(600)	  (460)    (120)			San Marco
								(2.9 S	40.3 E)
* Enhanced SCOUT 525	   372	   110	    0/0		  $15m
		(1,160)   (820)   (240)

Shavit					    2/2   100%		Palmachim AFB
(Israel)							( ~31 N)
  Shavit	 ???	   160	   ???	    2/2		  $22m
			  (350)

Space Shuttle				    37/38  97.4%	Kennedy Space
(USA)								Center
  Shuttle/SRB  23,500	   ???	   5,900    37/38	  $248m (28.5 N 81.0 W)
	      (51,800)		  (13,000)		  [FY88]

* Shuttle/ASRM 27,100	   ???	   ???	    0/0
	      (59,800)

SLV					    2/6    33.3%	SHAR Center
(India)       (400km)  (900km polar)				(13.9 N 80.4 E)
  ASLV		150	   ???	    ???     0/2		  $???m
	       (330)

* PSLV		3,000	  1,000     450     0/0		  $???m
	       (6,600)	 (2,200)   (990)

* GSLV		8,000	   ???	   2,500    0/0		  $???m
	       (17,600)		  (5,500)

Titan					    160/172 93.0%	Cape Canaveral
(USA)								Vandenberg
  Titan II	 ???	  1,905     ???     2/2		   $43m
			 (4,200)

  Titan III    14,515	  ???	   5,000    2/3		   $140m
	      (32,000)		  (11,000)

  Titan IV/SRM 17,700	 14,100    6,350    3/3		   $154m-$227m
	      (39,000)	(31,100)  (14,000)

 Titan IV/SRMU 21,640	 18,600    8,620    0/0		   $???m
	      (47,700)	(41,000)  (19,000)

Vostok					    1358/1401 96.9%	Baikonur
(Russia)		 [650km]				Plesetsk
  Vostok	4,730	  1,840     ???     ?/149	   $14m
	      (10,400)	(4,060)

  Soyuz		7,000	   ???	    ???     ?/944	   $15m
	      (15,400)

  Molniya	1500kg (3300 lbs) in	    ?/258	   $???M
		Highly eliptical orbit

Does anyone out there have or know of, any kind of utility program for

Ribbons?

Ribbons are a popular representation for 2D shape.  I am trying to
find symmetry axis in a given any 2D shape using ribbons.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated how to start program. 

Thanks very much in advance,
Hoi

Sorry, you're right.  I did not clearly state it.

The most common form of condescending is the rational versus irrational
attitude.  Once one has accepted the _assumption_ that there is no god(s),
and then consider other faiths to be irrational simply because their
assumption(s) contradict your assumption, then I would say there's a
lack of consistency here.

Now I know you'll get on me about faith.  If the _positive_ belief that God
does not exist were a closed, logical argument, why do so many rational
people have problems with that "logic"?

But you, probably like me, seem to be a soft atheist.  Sorry for the flamage.

;)  What is the CLIPPER project BTW?

It might have appeared to attack atheism in general, but its point was
that mass killing happens for all sorts of reasons.  People will hate who
they will and will wave whatever flag to justify it, be it cross or
hammer&sickle.  The Stalin example _is_ important not only because it's
still a widely unappreciated era that people want to forget but also
because people really did love him and his ideas, even after all that he
had wrought.

First, all the pink crows/unicorns/elves arguments in the world will not
sway most people, for they simply do not accept the analogy.  Why?

One of the big reasons is that many, many people want something
beyond this life.  You can pretend that they don't want this, but I for
one can accept it and even want it myself sometimes.

And there is nothing unique in this example of why people want a God.
Can love as a truth be proven, logically?

John the Baptist boasted of Jesus to many people.  I find it hard to see
how that behavior is arrogant at all.  Many Christians I know also boast
in this way, but I still do not necessarily see it as arrogance.  Of course,
I do know arrogant Christians, doctors, and teachers as well.  Technically,
you might consider the person who originally made a given claim to be arrogant,
Jesus, for instance.

I speak against strong atheism.  I also often find that the evidence
supporting a faith is very subjective, just as, say, the evidence supporting
love as truth is subjective.

No apology necessary.  :)
--

The Harvard Computer Society is pleased to announce its third lecture of
the spring.  Ivan Sutherland, the father of computer graphics and an
innovator in microprocessing, will be speaking at Harvard University on
Tuesday, April 20, 1993, at 4:00 pm in Aiken Computations building, room
101.  The title of his talk is "Logical Effort and the Conflict over the
Control of Information."

Cookies and tea will be served at 3:30 pm in the Aiken Lobby.  Admissions
is free, and all are welcome.

Aiken is located north of the Science Center near the Law School.

For more information, send e-mail to eekim@husc.harvard.edu.

The lecture will be videotaped, and a tape will be made available.

Thanks.

   From: "Phil G. Fraering" <pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu>

   > Finally: this isn't the Bronze Age, [..]
   > please try to remember that there are more human activities than
   > those practiced by the Warrior Caste, the Farming Caste, and the
   > Priesthood.

   Right, the Profiting Caste is blessed by God, and may 
    freely blare its presence in the evening twilight ..

The Priesthood has never quite forgiven
the merchants (aka Profiting Caste [sic])
for their rise to power, has it?

;-)

I posted my public-domain MSDOS program "sunlight.zip" to "sci.astro" yesterday.
It easily locates the sun, moon, and planets, and can also be used to
locate other objects if you input their Right Ascesion and Declination.
Use "uudecode" to extract.

-- 
  
        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - sheaffer@netcom.com
  
 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

         "Marxism and feminism are one and that one is Marxism"

It's supposedly a high-performance chip based upon workstation graphics
accelerators.  It's quite fast (I have 7), but as usual with new boards/chips
the drivers are buggy for Windows.  As far as Winmarks go, it depends upon
the version.  I think I got 42M winmarks with version 3.11.  2.5 yielded the
50+ number.  I've also benchmarked this with Wintach at over 65 (from memory
as well).

As far as the low-level stuff goes, it looks pretty nice.  It's got this
quadrilateral fill command that requires just the four points.

It's very fast, but beware of buggy drivers, and otherwise no non-windows
support.

Assuming you are presenting it accurately, I don't see how this argument
really leads to any firm conclusion.  The material in John (I'm not sure
exactly what is referred to here, but I'll take for granted the similarity
to the Matt./Luke "Q" material) IS different; hence, one could have almost
any relationship between the two, right up to John getting it straight from
Jesus' mouth.

The version of the "usual theory" I have heard has Matthew and Luke
independently relying on Mark and "Q".  One would think that if Luke relied
on Matthew, we wouldn't have the grating inconsistencies in the geneologies,
for one thing.

This is the part that is particularly new to me.  If it were possible that
you could point me to a reference, I'd be grateful.

Because it closes up the gap between (supposed) writing and the existing
copy quit a bit.  The further away from the original, the more copies can be
written, and therefore survival becomes more probable.

I'm not really impressed with the "theology" argument.  But I'm really
pointing this out as an "if".  And as I pointed out earlier, one cannot make
these arguments about I Peter; I see no reason not to accept it as an
authentic letter.

The best analogy would be reporters talking to the participants, which is
not so bad.

But the statement of divinity is not in that section, and in any case, it's
agreed that the most important epistles predate Mark.

What loyalty!

Jim, it seems you've been reading a little too much Russell Hoban
lately. As Hemingway said, my imitators always imitate the _bad_
aspects of my writing. Hoban would, no doubt, say the same here.

The problem is, your use of the word "objective" along with "values."
Both definitions three and four are inherently subjective, that is
they are particular to a given individual, or personal. You see,
what one person may see as worthwhile, another may see as worthless.

Again, your form of measurement in this sentence, that being of "worth"
is subjective. 

When I find that my usage of a word is different than the usage of
that word given by another person, I try to find a standard against
which to judge that usage. In most cases, the dictionary is the standard
I use. Here is a definiton of objective:

objective ADJ. 1. Of or having to do with a material object as 
distinguished from a mental concept. 2. Having actual existance.
3.a. Unenfluenced by emotion or personal prejudice. b. Based on
observable phenomenon.

By this definition, science does not have an objective worth, since the
phrase "objective worth" is an oxymoron. However you asked something a 
little differently this time, you asked for an objective basis for a
notion. The fact that the use of science as an intellectual tool is
responsible for changes in our world (the changes are material, and
thus "objective") would provide an objective _basis_ for an argument.
However, the conclusion arrived at from that argument (that science is 
"good") is subjective.

I think that the problem here is one of word usage. Take a little time
and read the definitions of these words: objective, subjective, worth,
value, morality, good, evil. I believe that if you think about the 
meaning of them for a while, you will have to conclude that there is no
such thing as an objective morality.

As I heard the story, before Albert came up the the theory
o'relativity and warped space, nobody could account for
Mercury's orbit.  It ran a little fast (I think) for simple
Newtonian physics.  With the success in finding Neptune to
explain the odd movments of Uranus, it was postulated that there
might be another inner planet to explain Mercury's orbit.  

It's unlikely anything bigger than an asteroid is closer to the
sun than Mercury.  I'm sure we would have spotted it by now.
Perhaps some professionals can confirm that.

I sent off for my copy today...   Snail Mail.   Hope to get it back in
about ten days.  (Impulse said "a week".)

I hope it's as good as they claim...

Jim Nobles

  For a commerical package try WAVE from  Precision Visuals
                                           505-530-6563

  For a free package try KHOROS from University of New Mexico
                                      508-277-6563
                                   ftp from
                              ptrg.eece.unm.edu

    Login in anonyomus or ftp  with a valid email address as the password
               cd /pub/khoros/release

   That will get you to the right place.

The sightings were apparently spurious.  There is no planet inside of
the orbit of Mercury.

The idea of Vulcan came from the differences between Mercury's observed
perihelion precession and the value it should have had according to
Newtonian physics.  Leverrier made an extensive set of observations
and calculations during the mid 19th century, and Simon Newcombe later
improved on the observations and re-calculated using Leverrier's system
of equations.  Now Leverrier was one of the co-discoverers of Neptune
and since he had predicted its existence based on anomalies in the orbit
of Uranus his inclination was to believe the same sort of thing was
afoot with Mercury.

But alas, 'twere not so.  Mercury's perihelion precesses at the rate
it does because the space where it resides near the sun is significantly
curved due to the sun's mass.  This explanation had to wait until 1915
and Albert Einstein's synthesis of his earlier theory of the electrodynamics
of moving bodies (commonly called Special Relativity) with Reimanian 
geometry.  The result was the General Theory of Relativity, and one of
it's most noteworthy strengths is that it accounts for the precession
of Mercury's perihelion almost exactly.  (Exactly if you use Newcomb's
numbers rather than Leverrier's.)

Of course not everybody believes Einstein, and that's fine.  But subsequent
efforts to find any planets closer to the sun than Mercury using radar
have been fruitless.

-Bill Gawne

 "Forgive him, he is a barbarian, who thinks the customs of his tribe
  are the laws of the universe."                       - G. J. Caesar

Sorry!! :-)

Call the four points A, B, C and D. Any three of them must be
non-collinear (otherwise all three could not lie on the surface
of a sphere) and all four must not be coplaner (otherwise either
they cannot all lie on a sphere or they define an infinity of them).

A, B and C define a circle. The perpendicular bisectors of AB, BC
and CA  meet in a point (P, say) which is the centre of this circle.
This circle must lie on the surface of the desired sphere.

Consider the normal to the plane ABC passing through P. All points
on this normal are equidistant from A, B and C and its circle (in
fact it is a diameter of the desired sphere). Take the plane
containing this normal and D (if D lies on the normal any
plane containing the normal will do); this plane is at right angles
to the ABC one.

Let E be the point (there are normally two of them) on the circumference
of the ABC circle which lies in this plane. We need a point Q on the
normal such that EQ = DQ. But the intersection of the perpendicular
bisector of ED and the normal is such a point (and it exists since D is
not in the plane ABC, and so ED is not at right angles to the normal).

Algorithm:

Is the sphere well defined?
    (1) Check that A and B are not coincident (=> failure).
    (2) Find the line AB and check that C does not lie on it (=> failure).
    (3) Find the plane ABC and check that D does not lie in it (=> failure).
Yes. Find its centre.
    (1) Find the perpendicular bisectors of AB and AC.
    (2) Find their point of intersection (P).
    (3) Find the normal to the plane ABC passing through P (line N).
    (4) Find the plane containing N and D; find the point E on the
	ABC circle in this plane (if D lies on N, take E as A).
    (4) Find the perpendicular bisector of ED (line L)
    (5) Find the point of intersection of N and L (Q).
Q is the centre of the desired sphere

Pictures:

(1) In the plane ABC

			A

                                P
                 
                B                               C

(2) At right-angles to ABC, in the plane containing N and D

			E

                                                          D

    line N
    --------------------P-------------Q---------------------------

Numerically:

If ED << EP then Q will be very close to P (relative to the radius
of the ABC circle) and subject to error. It's best to choose D so
that the least of AD, BD and CD is larger than for any other choice.

Greetings,
    I have an Epson HI-80 4 pen plotter forsale.  It emulates an HP 7570
or 7574 - I'm not sure which.  It has an option board on it that does
the emulation.  It has a serial interface with Hardware handshake. I
also have 340 Pens for it as follows:  10 packs of 4 Black Oil based, 16
packs of 4 Red,Green, Blue, and Black pens, 22 packs of 4 Aqueous Black,
7 packs of 4 Aqueous R,G,Blue,Black,  1 pack of 6 Aqueous Multi color
pens,  and 114 assorted non-packaged pens mostly colored.

    The plotter is used.  I have tested it using the Windows drivers for
HP 7570 and HP 7574 and both worked fine.  It accepts either A or B
sized paper. (8.5 x 11 or 11x17).

    I figure that the plotter is worth about $300 and the pens are worth at
least another $200 more..  One thing is certain, you won't need to
purchase any pens for quite a while...  All of the packaged pens were
sealed so they are all still fresh.  The rest were capped and seem to
function as well.

    I'd be willing to sell the pens seperate if anyone is interested in
just them.

    I'm selling it because I got a HP LaserJet and I don't need color.

    I'd like $350 or best offer...

    -Chert

Lets hear it for Dan Goldin...now if he can only convince the rest of
our federal government that the space program is a worth while
investment!

I hope that I will live to see the day we walk on Mars, but
we need to address the technical hurdles first!  If there's sufficient
interest, maybe we should consider starting a sci.space group 
devoted to the technical analysis of long-duration human spaceflight.
Most of you regulars know that I'm interested in starting this analysis
as soon as possible.

This thread seems to be arguing the validity of a religious viewpoint
according to some utilitarian principle, i.e. atheism/religion is
wrong because it causes death.  The underlying `moral' is that death
is `wrong'.  This is a rather arbitrary measure of validity.

Get some epistemology.

Not so.  If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled, do you
blame the tiger?

  ( in <1993Apr16.163729.867@batman.bmd.trw.com> )
  ( responding to Dave "First With Official A.A Nickname" Fuller )
 
[ ... ]

That means that it is an effective anti-recidivism measure.  It does
not say that it deters an individual from committing a capital crime
in the first place.

The true question is whether the threat of death is likely to actually
stop one from murdering.  (Or commiting treason -- are there any other
capital crimes anywhere in the USA?)  That is, if there were no death
penalty, would its introduction deter a would-be criminal from
committing her/his crime?  I doubt it.

This is only the first step.  Even if it were a strong deterrent
(short of being a complete deterrent) I would reject it.  For what
about the case of the innocent executed?

And even if we could eliminate this possibility, I would reject the
death penalty as immoral. This makes me something of a radical on
the issue, although I think there are many opponents of captial
punishment who agree with me, but who find the innocent executed the
strongest argument to make.

I would, if magically placed in charge, facilitate state-aided suicide
for criminals who have life-sentences.  This could be a replacement
for capital punishment.  Those who don't want to live the rest of
their lives in jail would always have this option.

If one is a vegan (a vegetarian taht eats no animal products at at i.e eggs, 
milk, cheese, etc., after about 3 years of a vegan diet, you need to start 
taking B12 supplements because b12 is found only in animals.) Acutally our 
bodies make B12, I think, but our bodies use up our own B12 after 2 or 3 
years.  
Lacto-oveo vegetarians, like myself, still get B12 through milk products 
and eggs, so we don't need supplements.
And If anyone knows more, PLEASE post it.  I'm nearly contridicting myself 
with the mish-mash of knowledge I've gleaned.

There is the Army Ballistic Missile Defense Organization.

They were the precursors to SDIO.  and still exist under
that umbrella.  Army Signal Corp's  and DCA  defense Comm Agency
oops  DISA, they just changed names  do space work.  that's
the point of all those defense comm sats.  

In my first posting on this subject I threw out an idea of how to fund
such a contest without delving to deep into the budget.  I mentioned
granting mineral rights to the winner (my actual wording was, "mining
rights.)  Somebody pointed out, quite correctly, that such rights are
not anybody's to grant (although I imagine it would be a fait accompli
situation for the winner.)  So how about this?  Give the winning group
(I can't see one company or corp doing it) a 10, 20, or 50 year
moratorium on taxes.

No.  There are two problems here:

(1) Peter died two millenia ago.  The original letters he wrote have
long since decayed into dust.  If he were alive today and I could
question him, then this might lend credibility to your claims (but
probably not much, because after all, I've heard people claim with all
sincerity that they've spoken with Elvis recently).  But after his
death, Peter's writings were transcribed by monks for centuries, and I
find it hard to believe that one of them somewhere didn't decide to
change the wording of something to make it (in his opinion) a little
easier to understand.

(2) Even if Peter did witness the miracles of Jesus two millenia ago,
that doesn't mean that your deity is what the Bible says it is (God
might just be Satan, trying to convince everyone that he's a nice
guy), or even that your deity is still alive and active in the world
today.

Nice try, but it just isn't enough to convince me, especially since
your wild claims about your deity seem to fly in the face of the way
I've observed the world to work.  Please find something more compelling.

...text of options "A" and "B" deleted...

Only 10KW?

Ha!  "North America Modular SPACE STATION construction" :-)
Same apprach, same reasoning: "construction occurs under assembly
line conditions, no random weather problems interupting site-work
on your home - better quality control" -- sounds like first "-"
point above :-)

Somehow I have a strange attraction for this idea (living in
a modular home maybe has altered my mind).  The only thing
that scares me is the part about simply strapping 3 SSME's and
a nosecone on it and "just launching it."  I have this vision
of something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting in the
complete loss of the new modular space station (not just a peice of
it as would be the case with staged in-orbit construction).

	I've heard of sillier things, like a well-known utility company
wanting to buy an 'automated' boiler-cleaning system which uses as many
operators as the old system, and which rumour has it costs three million
more per unit. Automation is more 'efficient' although by what scale they are
not saying...

Lot's of these small miners  are no longer miners.  THey are people living
rent free on Federal land,  under the claim of being a miner.  The facts are
many of these people do not sustaint heir income from mining,  do not
often even live their full time,  and do fotentimes do a fair bit
of environmental damage.

These minign statutes were created inthe 1830's-1870's  when the west was
uninhabited  and were designed to bring people into the frontier.  Times change
people change.  DEAL.  you don't have a constitutional right to live off
the same industry forever.  Anyone who claims the have a right to their
job in particular,  is spouting nonsense.   THis has been a long term
federal welfare program,  that has outlived it's usefulness.

So the only way you can tell a false hadith from a true one is
if it contradicts the Quran?  What if it relates to something
that isn't explicitly spelled out in the Quran?

Also, the Quran wasn't written down during the life of Muhammed
either.  It wasn't long after, but 20 years or so is still long
enough to shift a few verses around.

Karl

Actually, the reboost will probably be done last, so that there is a fuel
reserve during the EVAs (in case they have to chase down an adrift
astronaut or something like that).  But yes, you've got the idea -- the
reboost is done by taking the whole shuttle up.

Somebody has to build that thruster module; it's not an off-the-shelf
item.  Nor is it a trivial piece of hardware, since it has to include
attitude control (HST's own is not strong enough to compensate for things
like thruster imbalance), guidance (there is no provision to feed gyro
data from HST's own gyros to an external device), and separation (you
don't want it left attached afterward, if only to avoid possible
contamination after the telescope lid is opened again).  You also get
to worry about whether the lid is going to open after the reboost is
done and HST is inaccessible to the shuttle (the lid stays closed for
the duration of all of this to prevent mirror contamination from
thrusters and the like).

The original plan was to use the Orbital Maneuvering Vehicle to do the
reboost.  The OMV was planned to be a sort of small space tug, well
suited to precisely this sort of job.  Unfortunately, it was costing
a lot to develop and the list of definitely-known applications was
relatively short, so it got cancelled.

At the time Ezekiel was written, Israel was in apostacy again and if I'm not 
mistaken, Tyre was about to make war on Israel.  Like I said, the Prince of 
Tyre was the human ruler of Tyre.  He was a wicked man.  By calling Satan 
the King of Tyre, Ezekiel was saying that Satan is the real ruler over Tyre.

Don't think my interpretation is neccessarily the orthodox Christian one, 
although most Christian Bible commentaries interpret the King of Tyre as 
being a reference to Satan. (I haven't read Ezekiel throughly in a long 
time.)

There is a new version of the RTrace ray-tracing package (8.2.0) at
asterix.inescn.pt [192.35.246.17] in directory pub/RTrace.
Check the README file.

RTrace now can use the SUIT toolkit to have a nice user interface.
Compile it with -DSUIT or modify the Makefile.
SUIT is available at suit@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu
I have binaries of RTrace with SUIT for SUN Sparc, SGI Indigo
and DOS/GO32.
Please contact me if interested.

****************************************

The MAC RTrace 1.0 port is in directory pub/RTrace/Macintosh
Thanks to Reid Judd (reid.judd@east.sun.com) and
Greg Ferrar (gregt@function.mps.ohio-state.edu).

Small changes were done since version 8.1.0, mainly:

1. Now it is possible to discard backface polygons and triangles
   for fast preview...

2. The support program scn2sff has been reworked to use temp files.

Here goes a short description of current converters from
CAD/molecular/chemistry packages to the SCN format.

The package programs are related as below (those marked with * have been
modified)

	       irit2scn
     IRIT ----------------|
                          |               NFF (nffclean, nffp2pp)
	        sol2scn   |                |
    ACAD11 ---------------|                | nff2sff
                          |                |
	        mol2scn	  v    scn2sff*    v	rtrace*
   ALCHEMY  -----------> SCN -----------> SFF ----------> PIC or PPM
			  ^      cpp                           |
	        pdb2scn   |                                 picmix
     PDB -----------------|                                 picblend
			  |                                 ppmmix*
	       chem2scn   |                                 ppmblend*
   CHEMICAL --------------|
                          |
                3ds2scn*  |
  3D STUDIO --------------|
                          |
                iv2scn*   |
 IRIS Inventor -----------|

The DOS port of RTrace is in pub/RTrace/PC-386 (rtrac820.arj,
utils820.arj and image820.arj). See the README file there.
Requires DJGPP GO32 DOS extender (version 1.09 included), which can be
found in directory pub/PC/djgpp (and in many sites around netland).
There are also demo scenes, manuals and all the source code...

Please feel free to get it and use it.
Hope you like it.

[reply to frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer)]
 
From A Dictionary of Philosophy, by Anthony Flew:
 
"Objectivism:  The belief that there are certain moral truths that would
remain true whatever anyone or everyone thought or desired.  For
instance, 'No one should ever deliberately inflict pain on another
simply to take pleasure in his suffering' might be thought of as a
plausible example.  Even in a world of sadists who all rejected it, the
contention remains true, just as '5 + 7 = 12' remains correct even if
there is no one left to count.  The problem for the objectivist is to
determine the status of moral truths and the method by which they can be
established.  If we accept that such judgements are not reports of what
is but only relate to what ought to be (see naturalistic fallacy) then
they cannot be proved by any facts about the nature of the world.  Nor
can they be analytic, since this would involve lack of action-guiding
content;  'One ought always to do the right thing' is plainly true in
virtue of the vords involved but it is unhelpful as a practical guide to
action (see analytic and synthetic).  At this point the objectivist may
talk of 'self-evident truths', but can he deny the subjectivist's claim
that self-evidence is in the mind of the beholder?  If not, what is left
of the claim that some moral judgements are true?  THe subjectivist may
well feel that all that remains is that there are some moral judgements
with which he would wish to associate himself.  To hold a moral opinion
is, he suggests, not to know something to be true but to have
preferences regarding human activity."

I have before me a pertinent report from the United States General
Accounting Office:

National Aero-Space Plane: Restructuring Future Research and Development
Efforts
December 1992
Report number GAO/NSIAD-93-71

In the back it lists the following related reports:

NASP: Key Issues Facing the Program (31 Mar 92) GAO/T-NSIAD-92-26

Aerospace Plane Technology: R&D Efforts in Japan and Australia
(4 Oct 91) GAO/NSIAD-92-5

Aerospace Plane Technology: R&D Efforts in Europe (25 July 91)
GAO/NSIAD-91-194

Aerospace Technology: Technical Data and Information on Foreign
Test Facilities (22 Jun 90) GAO/NSIAD-90-71FS

Investment in Foreign Aerospace Vehicle Research and Technological
Development Efforts (2 Aug 89) GAO/T-NSIAD-89-43

NASP: A Technology Development and Demonstration Program to Build
the X-30 (27 Apr 88) GAO/NSIAD-88-122

On the inside back cover, under "Ordering Information" it says

"The first copy of each GAO report is free.  . . .  Orders
may also be placed by calling (202)275-6241
"

Dani

Because no one has touched the problem I posted last week, I guess
my question was not so clear. Now I'd like to describe it in detail:

The offset of an ellipse is the locus of the center of a circle which
rolls on the ellipse. In other words, the distance between the ellipse
and its offset is same everywhere.

This problem comes from the geometric measurement when a probe is used.
The tip of the probe is a ball and the computer just outputs the
positions of the ball's center. Is the offset of an ellipse still
an ellipse? The answer is no! Ironically, DMIS - an American Indutrial
Standard says it is ellipse. So almost all the software which was
implemented on the base of DMIS was wrong. The software was also sold
internationaly. Imagine, how many people have or will suffer from this bug!!!
How many qualified parts with ellipse were/will be discarded? And most
importantly, how many defective parts with ellipse are/will be used?

I was employed as a consultant by a company in Los Angeles last year
to specially solve this problem. I spent two months on analysis of this
problem and six months on programming. Now my solution (nonlinear)
is not ideal because I can only reconstruct an ellipse from its entire
or half offset. It is very difficult to find the original ellipse from
a quarter or a segment of its offset because the method I used is not
analytical. I am now wondering if I didn't touch the base and make things
complicated. Please give me a hint.

I know you may argue this is not a CG problem. You are right, it is not.
However, so many people involved in the problem "sphere from 4 poits".
Why not an ellipse? And why not its offset?

Please post here and let the others share our interests 
(I got several emails from our netters, they said they need the
summary of the answers).

  Bobby:

  Get this the hell out of your .sig until you 1) learn what it
  stands for and 2) really mean it.

Look for edge inconsistencies.  Consider two vertices, p and q, which
are connected by at least one edge.

If (p,q) is an edge, then (q,p) should *not* appear.  

If *both* (p,q) and (q,p) appear as edges, then the surface "flips" when
you travel across that edge.  This is bad.  

Assuming (warning...warning...warning) that you have an otherwise
acceptable surface - you can pick an edge, any edge, and traverse the
surface enforcing consistency with that edge.  

    0) pick an edge (p,q), and mark it as "OK"
    1) for each face, F, containing this edge (if more than 2, oops)
       make sure that all edges in F are consistent (i.e., the Face
       should be [(p,q),(q,r),(r,s),(s,t),(t,p)]).  Flip those which
       are wrong. Mark all of the edges in F as "OK",
       and add them to a queue (check for duplicates, and especially
       inconsistencies - don't let the queue have both (p,q) and (q,p)). 
    2) remove an edge from the queue, and go to 1).

If a *marked* edge is discovered to be inconsistent, then you lose.

If step 1) finds more than one face sharing a particular edge, then you
lose. 
    
Otherwise, when done, all of the edges will be consistent.  Which means
that all of the surface normals will either point IN or OUT.  Deciding
which way is OUT is left as an exercise...

: Are there significant differences between V2.01 and V2.00 ?
: Thank you for helping

No.  As I recall, the only differences are in the 3ds.set parameters - some
of the defaults have changed slightly.  I'll look when I get home and let
you know, but there isn't enough to actually warrant upgrading.

 Yes, I want to concentrate on other development issues - I've created graphics
 libraries before, it's too time consuming... life's too short!

 Thanks for the clarification... Before posting my original request I had looked
 into the Mac's 3D capabilities and dismissed them as low grade.

No matter how "absurd" it is to suggest that a common moral system created by
mankind is absolute, it is not contrary to reason to suggest that a common
moral system created by mankind is sensible. In fact, for the Bible to be of
any use to mankind as a moral code, it must be interpreted by mankind and a
workable moral system created for everyday use.

The Jewish Talmud is the result of centuries of Biblical scholars analysing
every word of the Torah to understand the morality behind it. The Children of
Israel were given a very strict set of Moral, Civil, Judicial and Ceremonial
Laws to follow and yet this was clearly not enough to cover every instance
of moral dilemma in their Society. For a Christian, the situation is no better.

It seems to me that the only code of morality that we have from the Judeo-
Christian God is that which is contained in the Bible (which we can see from
the diverse opinions in the Christian newsgroups is not clear). There may well
be an absolute morality defined by the Judeo-Christian God for mankind to
follow but it seems that we only have a subset simply because the concept was
written down by man.

This leads to the problem of defining morality for our society. If we take the
divine Morality then we have a code of practice which may be interpreted in many
different ways (as an example, consider the immolation of heretics in the
fifteenth century and the interpretation of the Bible which allows a man to do
that to another man under the precept to administer Justice). If we take an
agnostic Morality then we have a code of practice that can be modified to suit
society (with all the danger that this implies). Alternatively, we could take
the basis of the Judeo-Christian morality and interpret/extend this to create
and justify a code of morality which suits the society we live in and enables
the people to live Righteously (as many Christian and Non-Christian philosophers
have done).

Whatever the driving force behind the definition of morality for our society, I
think the important aspect is the result.

David.

---
On religion:

A very good modeling package I found is `irit' (look for irit.tar.Z).
However there is no converter from it's format to POV format. I postet 
a request for such a converter in this group but got no response,
so I'm considering to write such a program myself.

But the Question was later revealed to be:  What is 9 x 6?  (In the
base 13 system, of course.)

I responded to Jim's other articles today, but I see that I neglected
to respond to this one.  I wouldn't want him to think me a hypocrite
for not responding to *every* stupid article on t.r.m.

[dictionary definitions of "not" "disagree" and "agree" deleted]

Oh, but I'm weary of trying to wade through Jim's repertoire of 
red herrings and smoke screens.

Let's see what we get when we run all four articles posted by Jim today
through the 'discord' filter (a Markov chain program that Steve Lamont
was kind enough to send me):

	Taking action? A white geese be held
	as an accomplice to be held as
	a decision upon the door
	A black and white goose waddles past
	the eyes of the door. 
	Hits it with the confidence interval for 
	that individual is held responsible 
	for that, that individual 
	may be held as a 
	getaway car may be held 
	as an uncountably large number 
	of the driver of something 
	and agree.

	A black goose 
	waddles past the person imprisoned?

	White goose waddles past the 
	confidence interval for the population 
	of geese be axed, 
	fine.
	And white goose 
	waddles past the door.

Does running Jim's articles through 'discord' make them more
coherent?  Less coherent?

Or has 'discord' turned Jim's articles into an angst-ridden poem
about making choices in a world filled with uncertainty, yet being
held responsible for the choices we make?  Do the geese symbolize
an inner frustration with ambiguity, a desire that everything be
black and white, with no shades of gray?  Does the "getaway car"
tell us that to try to renounce the existential nature of our
being is not to "get away" from responsibility for our actions,
but rather to take the role of the passive accomplice, the
"driver" of the getaway car, as it were?  Does the juxtaposition
of man and machine, car and driver, reveal a subtext: an internal
conflict between determinism and moral responsibility?

Or am I reading too much into a collaboration between Jim and
a random number generator?

Brian K., I am pleased with your honesty.  And to be honest as well, I
believe you have not asked my god to come to you.  Why do I say this?
Because by the things you write on the net, and the manner with which
you write them, you show me that you made up your own god and are
attempting to pass him off as the real thing.  I got news for you.
Yours doesn't at all sound like mine.  Your god doesn't come to you
because your god doesn't exist.

I am sorry Brian, but when I read your postings, I do not see an open mind.
What I do see is misunderstanding, lack of knowledge, arrogance and mockery.

Be true to yourself then.  Have an open mind.  And so end the mockery.  Gain 
knowledge of the real God.  Put your presumptions aside.  Read the
Bible and know that there is, truly is, a reason for everything and
there exists a God that has so much love for you that the depth of it goes beyond
our shallow worldly experience.  A person who commits himself  
to seeking God, will find God.  Jesus stands at your door and knocks.  But a
person who half-heartedly opens the Bible, or opens it with purpose to find 
something to mock, will find, learn and see nothing.  The only thing one
will gain with that attitude is folly.

Be careful to not jump the gun, for at first glance, there are many passages
in the Bible that will seem bizarre and absurd.  Be assured that even
though they seem alien at first, be confident that they are not.
Be assured that beyond your present comprehension, there lies such
deep reasons that once you see them, you will indeed be satisfied. 
I will personally guarantee that one.  As Jesus put it, "You will never
be thirsty again.  Your cup will even flow over."

From King Solomon (970 B.C. to 930 B.C.):

    "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter;
     to search out a matter is the glory of kings."

Jesus says in John 6:44 & 55:

   "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

And in John 3:16:

   "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
   that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal
   life."

You are included in "whosoever".  And I also pray that the Father is
drawing you, which it seems He is doing else you wouldn't be posting
to talk.religion.misc.  Remember Brian, you could be a St. Paul in the
making.  Paul not only mocked Christians as you do, but also had pleasure
stoning them.  Yet God showed him mercy, saved him, and Paul became
on of the most celebrated men in the history of God's church.

You see Brian, I myself better be careful and not judge you, because
you could indeed be the next Paul.  For with the fervor that you attack
Christians,  one day you might find yourself one, and like Paul,
proclaim the good news of Jesus with that very same fervor or more.

Or you could be the next Peter.  What Jesus said to Peter, Jesus would 
probably say to you: "Satan would surely like to have you."  Why so?
Because Peter was hard-headed, cynical and demonstrated great
moments of stupidity, but once Peter committed himself to a task
he did with full heart.  Peter was the only apostle to have the
faith to walk on water as Jesus did.

You asked "Why not believe in Zeus?"  Zeus didn't offer eternal life.
You got nothing to gain by believing in Zeus.

->I addressed most of the key issues in this very long (284 lines) post
->by Dean Kaflowitz in two posts yesterday.  The first was made into the
->title post of a new thread, "Is Dean Kaflowitz terminally irony-impaired?"
->and the second, more serious one appeared along the thread
->"A Chaney Post, and a Challenge, reissued and revised"

Well, I guess I'm left wondering just who all the 'light fascists'
think *they* are.  Yes, I understand the issues.  I don't even
particularly care for the idea.  But am I the only one that finds the
sort of overreaction above just a *little* questionable?  You must
find things like the Moon *really* obnoxious in their pollution.

A few questions for those frothing at the mouth to ask themselves:

	1) How long is this thing supposed to stay up?  Sounds like it
would have a *huge* drag area, not a lot of mass, and be in a fairly
low orbit.

	2) Just what orbital parameters are we talking about here?
What real impact are we talking about, really?  How many optical
astronomers are *really* going to be impacted?

	3) Which is more important; adding a few extra days of
'seeing' for (very few) optical astronomers or getting the data the
sensors are supposed to return along with the data for large
inflatables (and the potential there for an inflatable space station)?
The choice would seem to be one or the other, since the advertising is
being used to help fund this thing.

	4) If your answer to 3) above was "the astronomers", then feel
free to come up with some other way to fund the (to my mind) more
important research data that would be gained by this WITHOUT SPENDING
ANY MORE OF MY MONEY TO DO IT.  In other words, put up or shut up.

Probably so.  I'm just not sure we agree about who the 'stupid' are. 

Yeah, me too.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden

    While I don't mean to damn Henrik's attempt to be helpful here,
he's using a common misconception that should be corrected.

    Mach banding will occur for any image.  It is not the color
quantization you see when you don't have enough bits.  It is the
human eye's response to transitions or edges between intensities.
The result is that colors near the transistion look brighter on
the brighter side and darker on the darker side.

--Andre

And you know why this is? Because you've conveniently _defined_ a theist as
someone who can do no wrong, and you've _defined_ people who do wrong as
atheists. The above statement is circular (not to mention bigoting), and,
as such, has no value.

If raw materials where to cost enough that getting them from space would
be cost effective then the entire world economy would colapse long
before the space mines could be built.

  Allen

According to a Software engineering professor here, what was actually rated
level five was an ibm unit which produced part of the software for the shuttle,
by not means all of it. 

Interesting note: 90% of the software development groups surveyed were at
level 1. The ibm shuttle groups was the *only* one at level 5!

: Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation 
: who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year. 
: Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin 
: to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!

I'm an advocate of this idea for funding Space Station work, and I
throw around the $1 billion figure for that "reward."  I suggest that
you increase the Lunar reward to about $3 billion.

This would encourage private industry to invest in space, which 
should be one of NASA's primary goals.

-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov  (713) 483-4368

: > Does anyone have any  other suggestions where the 42 came from?

Yep, here's a theory that I once heard bandied around.  Rather than thinking
of the number think of the sound. For Tea Two. A sort of anagram on Tea For Two,
Two for Tea, For Tea Two.

:-)

Peter

Well, I am not Andy, but if you had familiarized yourself with some of
the current theories/hypotheses about abiogenesis before posting :-), you
would be aware of the fact that none of them claims that proteins were
assembled randomly from amino acids. It is current thinking that RNA-
based replicators came before proteinaceous enzymes, and that proteins
were assembled by some kind of primitive translation machinery.

Now respond to 2. :-)
--Cornelius.

: 
: 
: Daemon
: 

Yes. I also like knowing where to go to ask a question without getting
hell for putting it in the wrong newsgroup.

  Do I smell .sig material here?

George.

	It's called a democracy.  The majority rules.  sorry.
If ytou don't like it, I suggest you modify the constitution to include
a constitutional right to Dark Skies.   The theory of government
here is that the majority rules,  except in the nature of fundamental
civil rights.   If you really are annoyed,   get some legislation
to create a dark sky zone,  where in all light emissions are protected
in the zone.  Kind of like the national radio quiet zone.  Did you
know about that?  near teh Radio telescope  observatory in West virginia,
they have a 90?????? mile EMCON zone.  Theoretically they can prevent
you from running light AC motors, like air conditioners and Vacuums.
In practice, they use it mostly to  control  large radio users.

A brief political/cultural item.

Radio station WGMS in Washington is a classical music station with
a large audience among high officials (elected and otherwise).  
Imagine a radio station that advertises Mercedes Benzes, diamond
jewelry, expensive resorts and (truthfully) Trident submarines.

This morning I heard a commercial for the space station project.
Didn't catch the advertiser.

Guess they're pulling out all the stops.

	The VESA standard can be requested from VESA:
	VESA
	2150 North First Street, Suite 440
	San Jose, CA 95131-2029

	Ask for the VESA VBE and Super VGA Programming starndards.  VESA
	also defines local bus and other standards.

	The VESA standard only addresses ways in which an application
	can find out info and capabilities of a specific super VGA
	implementation and to control the video mode selection
	and video memory access.

	You still have to set your own pixels.

	VESA defines a "window" that is used to access video memory.
	This window is anchored at the spot where you want to write,
	and then you can write as far as the window takes you (usually
	64K).  Windows have granularities, so you can't just anchor 
	them anywhere.  Also, some implementations allow two windows.

	This is VESA mode 101h.  There is a Set Display Start function
	that might be useful for scrolling.

	Your best bet is to write VESA for the info.  There have also
	been announcements on this group of VESA software.

How do we come up with this setup?  Is this subjective, if enough people agreed
we could switch the order?  Isn't this defining one unknown thing by another? 
That is, good is that which is better than bad, and bad is that which is worse
than good?  Circular?

MAC

--

I'm not very impressed by the old so-called "prospecting" work from
LPI, it has almost all been geared towards industrially silly processes on
the moon as an excuse to put astronauts there.   [...]

Translation:  It doesn't support the Nick Szabo Vision of the Future
to Which You MUST Subscribe...

Fred, we're all supporting what each of us thinks should be done, to some
degree.  If you have a problem with what Nick thinks should be done,
address it, instead of just complaining about his doing so.

You really don't get what the 'complaints' are about, do you?
  [not incredibly clear explanation of complaints...something between
   feelings regarding Nick's method, and judgments about his meaning]

T

F

*** Fred's issue #1;  Nick's alleged trashing of others ***

I only got it when you stopped trashing, and made your point patently,
instead of 'allegorically'.  That was my point all along, Fred.

I see we are dealing with a problem in a conflict of interpretations, not
least of which is your belief that only you can adequately judge what is
and is not debate.  Suffice to say that I disagree with you on that last
point.  Why don't you take a poll, Fred, if you want some psuedo-objective
point-of-view?

And, as usual, you defend your insults with "he started it."  "Yeah, I
took some of his research and called it my own, but he started it."  "So
what if I stole his car, he stole my lawnmower first."  Besides that, I
think it's still open to interpretation whether Nick actually did start it.
So your defense, besides being lame, and contradicting the first part of
the sentence in which it occurs, may not even apply anyway.

Your defense reminds me of the guy that broke the borrowed tool:  "I
never borrowed it, I already gave it back, and it was broken when you
gave it to me."  Make up yer mind, Fred!

First, I try to address what I think you meant, for which I am rewarded
with a denial of sorts, and a smart remark.  Then, I point out that I am
not clear what you did mean, rather than risking your childish ire, wrongly
interpreting you a second time, and I'm stupid for it.  I just can't win,
can I, Fred?  You've got a great point here somewhere, it's just that
between stupid people that you must insult, and your jealous guarding of
your valuable opinions, you never actually get around to making it.

*** Fred issue #2;  Nick's alleged meaning ***

Too bad the plan only exists in your mind, instead of Nick's, or you
would have a really good point.  Instead you have provided a good reason
to ignore your insults, since they are based on incorrect interpretations
that you have made about others.  Forgive me for giving your insults more
meaning than they ever should have had.

My reading of what Nick actually said is that "people aren't required in
all parts of all space processes", so your taking issue with his opinions
regarding people in the space program, I read as "People are required in
all parts of all space processes."  So, help me out, here, Fred, since I'm
so patently stupid.  Did you read Nick wrong?  Or are you going to eat
your terminal now?  If the latter, I sure hope it's one of those Cheeto and
string models that all the computer mags have been raving about :-)

The point is, _I_ am not stupid because of _your_ incorrect assumption.  I'd
only be stupid if I insulted you for having made it.  But, alas, that's your
job, Fred.

And, finally, your style is confusing, since you tried to make two points,
simultaneously, with an allegory/insult.  Sadly, one point addressed a 'plan'
that only existed in your mind, and the other took issue with behaviors that
you do as much as anyone.

No, no, I finally got it.  You don't like the plan that Nick's posts made
you imagine.  And you don't like Nick's obnoxious behavior, even though
it's no worse than your own.  Thanks for taking the time with someone as
dense as myself.

Of course, Socrates.  How could it be otherwise?

Who cares who came on the net first?  If you do, consider that you saw
me come on after a brief haitus, before which I was on for about 2 years.
If you had seen me on the net first, you'd remember when Nick and I went
down exactly the same road regarding rude, unneccesary behavior.  It's
just amazing to me that you continue to take issue with behavior that's
no worse than your own.

Let's see here, my complaints about your obnoxious behavior are hypocritical,
while your flames against people you decide are flamers isn't, and my
complaints about your name-calling are immature, while your name-calling
isn't.  Yeah, right.  Maybe if you called me some more names, I might
see it better, Fred.

"Net.ghod wannabe"?  Naturally, Fred, you've correctly interpreted my
motivations, when yours are impossible to judge from your actions (as
your insulting of people that try, proves).  I didn't really care about
people that fill the net with personal garbage, what I really wanted was to
impress everyone.  I only put my complaints with your behavior on private
mail, not because it belongs there, but because I thought you were such a
jerk that you'd bring it back to the Net, playing right into my hands.
Alas, I had no idea what an intellectual master you were, turning tables and
bringing the history of these posts to the net, for the noble and valuable
purpose of embarassing me.  Whether I should feel stupid because I tried
to make suggestions to such a superior intellect, or becuase I tried to
communicate like an adult with a self-righteous ass, still isn't clear.

Well, Fred, you exposed me.  Now I'll never be able to get a(nother) job
with NASA, since they all know that I'm stupider than Fred McCall.  Well,
I just hope you're happy.  Please leave me alone, now.  I just don't
have the heart to attempt keeping up with one so far above me.  Maybe Nick
or Pat can approach your high standards, but I'm dropping it now.

-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk   \\ As the radius of vision increases,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows.

It's about time.  Why do atheists spend so much time paying attention
to the bible, anyway?

Face it, there are better things to do with your life!  I used to
chuckle and snort over the silliness in that book and the absurdity
of people believing in it as truth, etc.  Why do we spend so little
time on the Mayan religion, or the Native Americans?  Heck, the Native
Americans have signifigantly more interesting myths.  Also, what
about the Egyptians.

I think we pay so much attention to Christianity because we accept
it as a _religion_ and not a mythology, which I find more accurate.

I try to be tolerant.  It gets very hard when someone places a book
under my nose and tells me it's special.  It's not.

Sorry for wasting your time with a probably simple question, but I'm not
an computer graphic expert. I want to read TIFF-Files with a PASCAL-program.
The problem is, that the files I want to read are in compressed form 
( code 1, e.g. Huffman ). All books & articles I found describe only the
plain (uncompressed) format. I don't know where to get the original
TIFF specification, furthermore I haven't any access to a realy complete
library. Can anybody direct me to a good book or (even better) to an 
specification available via ftp ?

Thanks in advance - Thomas Wolf

In my last post I referred to Michael Adams as "Nick."  Completely my
error; Nick Adams was a film and TV actor from the '50's and early '60's
(remember Johnny Yuma, The Rebel?).  He was from my part of the country,
and Michael's email address of "nmsca[...]" probably helped confuse things
in my mind.  Purely user headspace error on my part.  Sorry.

Yes, that's true, but you have to be clear exactly what is
an uninterpreted observation. It's pretty low level stuff.
'The sun shines' is already a LOT higher level than that. We
can agree that 'I perceive brightness' perhaps.

Huh? What do you mean 'all in the same situation?' Let's take me
and Dennis Kriz as examples. We're in pretty different situations,
but I think we can agree as to whether it's day or night. I don't
think we can agree as to whether or not abortion is morally
acceptable. Yet we are certainly in the same difference of
situations with respect to each other. Looks like weasel-words
to me, Frank. 

That's up to you, I guess.

This 'different situations' stuff is pretty confusing, Frank. How
do we decide if we are in the same situation? You mind explaining?

Huh? I don't think so. I think that people disagree about
fundamental goals.

-Ekr

I am looking for some graphic images of earth shot from space. 
( Preferably 24-bit color, but 256 color .gif's will do ).

Anyways, if anyone knows an FTP site where I can find these, I'd greatly
appreciate it if you could pass the information on.  Thanks.

( please send email ).

Ken Huisman

I usually use "Algorithms for graphics and image processing" by
Theodosios Pavlidis, but other people here got them same idea and now
3 of 4 copies in the libraries have been stolen!

Another reference is "Digital Image Processing" by Gonzalez and
Wintz/Wood, which is widely available but a little expensive ($55
here- I just checked today).

Too bad they didn't  give him a tour of the CGRO data?

I think he'd be fascinated by the Gamma ray bursters.  The mind of
hawking might even propose a mechanism.

SO what's a drag free satellite?   coated with WD-40?  carries an
aluminum-gold  set of grateful dead albums?   inquiring minds
want to know?

And why would MO  carry any features for being drag free?  I thought
aero-braking was a possible MO  experimental activity?

      Who cares what the fellow wrote anyway? I mean, it came from
PSUVM, so how could it possibly have been of any importance?

=====

(disperse smileys until no longer offended)

THE DIVINE MASTERS       
      
               Most Christians would agree, and correctly so, that 
          Jesus Christ was a Divine Master, and a projection of God 
          into the physical world, God Incarnate. 
          
               But there are some very important related facts that 
          Christians are COMPLETELY IGNORANT of, as are followers of 
          most other world religions. 
           
               First, Jesus Christ was NOT unique, John 3:16 NOTWITH-
          STANDING.  There is ALWAYS at least one such Divine Master 
          (God Incarnate) PHYSICALLY ALIVE in this world AT ALL TIMES, 
          a continuous succession THROUGHOUT HISTORY, both before and 
          after the life of Jesus. 
    
               The followers of some of these Masters founded the 
          world's major religions, usually PERVERTING the teachings of 
          their Master in the process.  Christians, for example, added 
          THREATS of "ETERNAL DAMNATION" in Hell, and DELETED the 
          teaching of REincarnation. 
       
               Secondly, and more importantly, after a particular 
          Master physically dies and leaves this world, there is 
          NOTHING that He can do for ANYbody except for the relatively 
          few people that He INITIATED while He was still PHYSICALLY 
          alive.  (THAT IS SIMPLY THE WAY GOD SET THINGS UP IN THE 
          UNIVERSES.)                             

               Therefore, all those Christians who worship Jesus, and 
          pray to Jesus, and expect Jesus to return and save them from 
          their sins, are only KIDDING THEMSELVES, and have allowed 
          themselves to be DUPED by a religion that was mostly 
          MANUFACTURED by the Romans. 
      
               And emotional "feelings" are a TOTALLY DECEIVING 
          indicator for religious validity. 
    
               These things are similarly true for followers of most 
          other major world religions, including Islam. 
     
               Thirdly, the primary function of each Master is to tune 
          His Initiates into the "AUDIBLE LIFE STREAM" or "SOUND 
          CURRENT", (referred to as "THE WORD" in John 1:1-5, and as 
          "The River of Life" in Revelation 22:1), and to personally 
          guide each of them thru the upper levels of Heaven while they 
          are still connected to their living physical bodies by a 
          "silver cord". 
    
               True Salvation, which completes a Soul's cycles of 
          REincarnation in the physical and psychic planes, is achieved 
          only by reaching at least the "SOUL PLANE", which is five 
          levels or universes above the physical universe, and this 
          canNOT be done without the help of a PHYSICALLY-Living Divine 
          Master. 
    
               One such Divine Master alive today is an American, Sri 
          Harold Klemp, the Living "Eck" Master or "Mahanta" for the 
          "Eckankar" organization, now headquartered in Minneapolis, 
          (P.O. Box 27300;  zip 55427). 
    
               Another Divine Master is Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji, now 
          living in Punjab, India, and is associated with the "Sant 
          Mat" organization. 
      
               One of the classic books on this subject is "THE PATH OF 
          THE MASTERS" (Radha Soami Books, P.O. Box 242, Gardena, CA  
          90247), written in 1939 by Dr. Julian Johnson, a theologian 
          and surgeon who spent the last years of his life in India 
          studying under and closely observing the Sant Mat Master of 
          that time, Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji. 
    
               Several of the Eckankar books, including some authored 
          by Sri Paul Twitchell or Sri Harold Klemp, can be found in 
          most public and university libraries and some book stores, or 
          obtained thru inter-library loan.  The book "ECKANKAR--THE 
          KEY TO SECRET WORLDS", by Sri Paul Twitchell, is ANOTHER 
          classic. 
    
               Many Christians are likely to confuse the Masters with 
          the "Anti-Christ", which is or was to be a temporary world 
          dictator during the so-called "last days".  But the Masters 
          don't ever rule, even when asked or expected to do so as 
          Jesus was. 
    
               People who continue following Christianity, Islam, or 
          other orthodox religions with a physically-DEAD Master, will 
          CONTINUE on their cycles of REincarnation, between the 
          Psychic Planes and this MISERABLE physical world, until they 
          finally accept Initiation from a PHYSICALLY-LIVING Divine 
          Master. 
    
          RE-INCARNATION
          
               The book "HERE AND HEREAFTER", by Ruth Montgomery, 
          describes several kinds of evidence supporting REincarnation 
          as a FACT OF LIFE, including HYPNOTIC REGRESSIONS to past 
          lives [about 50% accurate; the subconscious mind sometimes 
          makes things up, especially with a bad hypnotist], 
          SPONTANEOUS RECALL (especially by young children, some of 
          whom can identify their most recent previous relatives, 
          homes, possessions, etc.), DREAM RECALL of past life experi-
          ences, DEJA VU (familiarity with a far off land while travel-
          ing there for the first time on vacation), the psychic read-
          ings of the late EDGAR CAYCE, and EVEN SUPPORTING STATEMENTS 
          FROM THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE including Matthew 17:11-13 (John the 
          Baptist was the REINCARNATION of Elias.) and John 9:1-2 (How 
          can a person POSSIBLY sin before he is born, unless he LIVED 
          BEFORE?!).  [ ALWAYS use the "KING JAMES VERSION".  Later 
          versions are PER-VERSIONS! ] 
          
               Strong INTERESTS, innate TALENTS, strong PHOBIAS, etc., 
          typically originate from a person's PAST LIVES.  For example, 
          a strong fear of swimming in or traveling over water usually 
          results from having DROWNED at the end of a PREVIOUS LIFE.  
          And sometimes a person will take AN IMMEDIATE DISLIKE to 
          another person being met for the first time in THIS life, 
          because of a bad encounter with him during a PREVIOUS 
          INCARNATION. 

               The teaching of REincarnation also includes the LAW OF 
          KARMA (Galatians 6:7, Revelation 13:10, etc.).  People would 
          behave much better toward each other if they knew that their 
          actions in the present will surely be reaped by them in the 
          future, or in a FUTURE INCARNATION! 

          "2nd COMINGS"

               If a Divine Master physically dies ("translates") 
          before a particular Initiate of His does, then when that 
          Initiate physically dies ("translates"), the Master will meet 
          him on the Astral level and take him directly to the Soul 
          Plane.  This is the ONE AND ONLY correct meaning of a 2nd 
          Coming.  It is an INDIVIDUAL experience, NOT something that 
          happens for everyone all at once.  People who are still 
          waiting for Jesus' "2nd Coming" are WAITING IN VAIN. 
    
          PLANES OF EXISTENCE

               The physical universe is the LOWEST of at least a DOZEN 
          major levels of existence.  Above the Physical Plane is the 
          Astral Plane, the Causal Plane, the Mental Plane, the Etheric 
          Plane (often counted as the upper part of the Mental Plane), 
          the Soul Plane, and several higher Spiritual Planes.  The 
          Soul Plane is the FIRST TRUE HEAVEN, (counting upward from 
          the Physical).  The planes between (but NOT including) the 
          Physical and Soul Planes are called the Psychic Planes. 
    
               It is likely that ESP, telepathy, astrological 
          influences, radionic effects, biological transmutations [See 
          the 1972 book with that title.], and other phenomena without 
          an apparent physical origin, result from INTERACTIONS between 
          the Psychic Planes and the Physical Plane. 
    
               The major planes are also SUB-DIVIDED.  For example, a 
          sub-plane of the Astral Plane is called "Hades", and the 
          Christian Hell occupies a SMALL part of it, created there 
          LESS THAN 2000 YEARS AGO by the EARLY CATHOLIC CHURCH by some 
          kind of black magic or by simply teaching its existence in a 
          THREATENING manner.  The Christian "Heaven" is located 
          elsewhere on the Astral Plane.  Good Christians will go there 
          for a short while and then REincarnate back to Earth. 
          
          SOUND CURRENT vs. BLIND FAITH

               The Christian religion demands of its followers an 
          extraordinary amount of BLIND FAITH backed up by little more 
          than GOOD FEELING (which is TOTALLY DECEIVING). 
       
               If a person is not HEARING some form of the "SOUND 
          CURRENT" ("THE WORD", "THE BANI", "THE AUDIBLE LIFE STREAM"), 
          then his cycles of REINCARNATION in this MISERABLE world WILL 
          CONTINUE. 
    
               The "SOUND CURRENT" manifests differently for different 
          Initiates, and can sound like a rushing wind, ocean waves on 
          the sea shore, buzzing bees, higher-pitched buzzing sound, a 
          flute, various heavenly music, or other sounds.  In Eckankar, 
          Members start hearing it near the end of their first year as 
          a Member.  This and other experiences (such as "SOUL TRAVEL") 
          REPLACE blind faith. 
    
               For more information, answers to your questions, etc., 
          please consult my CITED SOURCES (3 books, 2 addresses). 

               UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this 
          IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED. 

See:
   Maureen Stone and Tony DeRose,
   "A Geometric Characterization of Parametric Cubic Curves",
   ACM TOG, vol 8, no 3, July 1989, pp. 147-163.
_______________________________________________________________________

...Ron Capelli                 IBM Corp.  Dept. C13,  MS. P230
   capelli@vnet.ibm.com        PO Box 950
   (914) 435-1673              Poughkeepsie, NY  12602

: 
: I am a Mormon.  I believe in Christ, that he is alive.  He raised himself
: [Text deleted]
:
: I learned that the concept of the Holy Trinity was never taught by Jesus
: Christ, that it was "agreed to" by a council of clergymen long after Christ
: was ascended, men who had no authority to speak for him.
:
If Jesus never taught the concept of the Trinity, how do you deal with the 
following:   

   Mat 28 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven
   and on earth has been given to me.

   Mat 28 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing
   them in¹ the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

   Mat 28 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
   And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." 

Also Jesus speaking:

   Act 1 5 For John baptized with¹ water, but in a few days you will
   be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

I believe that you may have overlooked some key verses, that are crucial to
the Christian faith. 

The number of civilian Iraqi deaths were way over-exaggerated and 
exploited for anti-war emotionalism by the liberal news media.  The
facts are that less Iraqis died in the Gulf War than did civilians 
in any other war of comparable size this century!  This was due mostly
to the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques
which were technically possible only recently.

The idea that "hundreds of thousands" of Iraqi citizens died is
ludicrous.  Not even "hundreds of thousands" of Iraqi soldiers died,
and they were the ones being targeted!  Or do you think that the US
and its allies were specifically out to kill and maim Iraqi civilians?
Either the smart bombs didn't hit their targets (and we know they did),
or they were targeting civilian targets (!) which is hardly condusive to
destroying Iraq's military potential.  The military mission planners are
not fools, they know they have to hit *military* targets to win a war.
Hitting civilian targets does nothing but unite the people against you,
not a laudable goal if one wants the people to rise up against their
tyrant-dictator. 

How about all the innocent people who died in blanket-bombing in WW2?
I don't hear you bemoaning them!  War is never an exact science, but
with smart bombs, it's becoming more exact with a smaller percentage
of civilian casualties.  Sometimes mistakes are made; targets are
misidentified; innocents die.  That's war the way it really is.
But the alternative, to allow tyrannical dictators to treat the earth
like it's one big rummage sale, grabbing everything they can get is
worse.  Like Patrick Henry said some 217 years ago, "I know not what
course others may take -- but as for me, give me liberty, or give me
death!"  War is always the price one must be willing to pay if one
wishes to stay free.   

Mathew, your sarcasm is noted but you are completely off-base here.
You come off sounding like a complete peace-nik idiot, although I
feel sure that was not your intent.

So the Iraqi war was wrong, eh?  I'm sure that appeasement would have
worked better than war, just like it did in WW2, eh?  I guess we
shouldn't have fought WW2 either -- just think of all those innocent
German civilians killed in Dresden and Hamburg.  How about all the poor 
French who died in the crossfire because we invaded the continent?  We 
should have just let Hitler take over Europe, and you'd be speaking
German instead of English right now.

Tyrants like Hussein *have* to be stopped.  His kind don't understand
diplomacy; they only understand the point of a gun.  My only regret is
that Bush wimped out and didn't have the military roll into Baghdad, so
now Hussein is still in power and the Iraqi people's sacrifice (not to
mention the 357 Americans who died) was for naught.  Liberating Kuwait 
was a good thing, but wiping Hussein off the map would've been better!

And as for poor, poor Rodney King!  Did you ever stop and think *why*
the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of "not guilty"?
Those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those
policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape.
But the jury looked at *all* the evidence, evidence which you and I
have not seen.  When one makes a judgment without the benefit of a
trial where evidence can be presented on both sides, one has simply
lowered himself to the level of vigilante justice, a state-of-mind
which your sarcasm above seemingly spoke against, but instead tends
to support in the case against the policemen.  

Law in this country is intended to protect the rights of the accused,
whether they be criminals or cops.  One is not found guilty if there is
a reasonable doubt of one's guilt, and only the jury is in a position
to assess the evidence and render a verdict.  Anyone else is simply
succumbing to verbal vigilantism.
       
Regards,

I searched the U Mich archives fairly thoroughly for 3D graphics packages,
I always thought it to be a mirror of sumex-aim.stanford.edu... I was wrong.
I'll look into GrafSys... it does sound interesting!

Thanks Cheinan.

   Just what do gay people do that straight people don't?

Absolutely nothing.

I'm a VERY straight(as an arrow), 17-year old male that is involved in the BSA.

I don't care what gay people do among each other, as long as they don't make
passes at me or anything.  At my summer camp where I work, my boss is gay.
Not in a 'pansy' way of gay (I know a few), but just 'one of the guys'.
He doesn't push anything on me, and we give him the same respect back, due
to his position.

If anything, the BSA has taught me, I don't know, tolerance or something.
Before I met this guy, I thought all gays were 'faries'.  So, the BSA HAS
taught me to be an antibigot.

I have a few reprints left of chapters from my book "Visions of the             
Future".  These include reprints of 3 chapters probably of interest to          
readers of this forum, including:                                               
                                                                                
1. Current Techniques and Development of Computer Art, by Franz Szabo           
                                                                                
2. Forging a Career as a Sculptor from a Career as Computer Programmer,         
by Stewart Dickson                                                              
                                                                                
3. Fractals and Genetics in the Future by H. Joel Jeffrey                       
                                                                                
I'd be happy to send out free reprints to researchers for scholarly             
purposes, until the reprints run out.                                           
                                                                                
Just send me your name and address.                                             

In regards to fractal commpression, I have seen 2 fractal compressed "movies".
They were both fairly impressive.  The first one was a 64 gray scale "movie" of
Casablanca, it was 1.3MB and had 11 minutes of 13 fps video.  It was a little
grainy but not bad at all.  The second one I saw was only 3 minutes but it
had 8 bit color with 10fps and measured in at 1.2MB.

I consider the fractal movies a practical thing to explore.  But unlike many 
other formats out there, you do end up losing resolution.  I don't know what
kind of software/hardware was used for creating the "movies" I saw but the guy
that showed them to me said it took 5-15 minutes per frame to generate.  But as
I said above playback was 10 or more frames per second.  And how else could you
put 11 minutes on one floppy disk?

The Japanese are still on the learning curve as far as nuclear power goes.
This means that unlike the Germans (who do great things all by themselves)
the Japanese tie up with foreign companies. The major one is Mitsubishi
(who else) who have a sharing agreement with GE I think. No chance of a
new design.

Sodium has *lots* of chemical problems. Like it eats stainless steel. Very
slowly but it gets there in the end. Not what I call a desired property.
As for design difficulties, what does sodium do there? It is a bitch and
it is only its chemical properties (flwed though they are) that means it
gets used. Two loops? That's not a design problem? Isolation from air and
water? That doesn't cause design problems? In comparison BWR's a dream rides!

Don't get none of that in a Liquid Sodium Breeder! More steel, more complexity.

Joseph Askew

Because that would contradict your religious beliefs; therefore,
you feel more comfortable simply accusing his sincerity, so you will
not have to critically examine your religious beliefs.

Stop! Hold it! You have a few problems here. Official history says that 
the first accusations of homosexuality in the SA came from OUTSIDE of the Nazi 
party, long BEFORE the Nazis ever came to power. So this objection is a red
herring, even if established history is wrong on this point. Moreover, none of 
the histories I've read ever made mention of Hitler or anyone else ever using 
homosexuality as a pretext for purging Roehm. A point I saw reiterated was that
Hitler and the party covered up these accusations. If you are going to accuse
official history of being a fabrication, you should at least get your facts
right. The pretext for purging Roehm was that he was planning to use the SA in
a coup against Hitler. Nowhere is there mention of using allegations of
homosexuality as a pretext for the purge, nor as a justification afterwards (it
is possible that the histories I've read have not mentioned this, but I doubt
it - would it be in Hitler's best interest to admit to the world that his
former right hand man was a homosexual?). 

Anyway, as I said before, it is always possible that I have missed references 
to the Nazis making use of charges of homosexuality against the SA after the 
night of the long knives - but this does not prove that they were false. Even 
the Nazis could tell the truth when it was to their advantage. In any case, 
this does not deal with accusations of homosexuality in the SA during the 
1920's.

Ah, yes. I forgot this was being posted to alt.conspiracy. I can smell the
paranoia from here. Since the Nazis never officially charged Roehm with 
homosexuality (at least, not according to what I've read), I'd like to know 
what tainted "evidence" you are talking about. Since the accusations were made 
by persons outside of the Nazi party, long before it came to power, and those 
accusations were common knowledge to journalists and others in Germany in the 
1920's and 30's, just how would it be possible for the Nazis to go back in 
time and plant "tainted" evidence? How exactly does one doctor newspapers 
which were circulated around the world, without the discrepancies being 
obvious? What actual incidences of Nazi doctoring evidence on this matter
do you know about? And what about the testimony of people who were involved in 
these matters, some of whom were not Nazis? And what is the point of making a 
false accusation of homosexuality if you do not publicize it? Since the point 
here seems to be to discredit established history, then the burden of proof 
falls on the revisionist. The revisionists had better do their homework 
before making accusations. Otherwise they simply look like conspiracy nuts.

This is just about the *only* thing we agree on. 

I suspect that the notion that there might have been bad people - Roehm and 
his SA buddies - who were homosexuals must disturb some people. The feeling
seems to be that if a nasty individual is accused of homosexuality, that this
must be an attempt to bash homosexuals. This fear - often justified - is what
lies behind this distrust of official history, or so it seems to me. But this
is not a good justification for trashing accepted accounts of this subject. If 
you really think that historians are so incompetent, why don't you write them 
and ask where they got their sources on this subject, if you can't tell from 
their footnotes? I'm a graduate student in history. Writing to professors and
tracking down sources is old hat. But my time is limited and this is not my
specialty - and neither you nor anyone else have said anything that would
cast one shred of doubt on existing evidence. I'm not going to waste my time
trying to debunk someone's paranoia. Do the research yourself.

Given that you already consider all evidence "tainted", what on earth would
constitute concrete particulars? And since when have concrete particulars been
considered "shrewd guesses"?

I suggest that those who do not trust popular historians (Irving et al) -
historians writing for a popular audience do not, as a rule, provide copious 
footnotes - should try instead reading academic historians, who usually 
provide footnotes to all their sources in immmense detail. This is the place 
to start looking. Assuming that one really wants to know the truth.

I'll bet the folks on alt.pagan are tired of this subject already. My
apologies - we seem to have gone off on a bit of a tangent. I forget which gods
are responsible for keeping strings within appropriate newsgroup subject
boundaries...

I used the information provided in the recent resource listings and
tried to ftp to:

ccu1.aukland.ac.nz [130.216.1.5]:  ftp/mac/architec - *VISION-3D facet

and received an 'unknown host' message.

mail to Paul D. Bourke (pdbourke@ccu1.aukland.ac.nz) bounces with basically
the same problem.

Where'd he go????

Rick

Hi Everyone ::

I am  looking for  some software  called SHADOW as 
far as  I know  its a   simple  raytracer  used in
the  visualization  of  synchrotron   beam  lines.
Now we have  an  old  version of the  program here
,but unfortunately we don't have any documentation
if anyone knows  where I  can  get  some  docs, or
maybe  a  newer  version  of  the program or  even 
another  program that does the same sort of  thing
I would love to hear from you.

PS I think SHADOW was written by a F Cerrina?

Anyone any ideas?

Didn't you hear?  His address has changed.  He can be reached at the 
following address:

dkoresh@branch.davidian.compound.waco.tx.us

I think he was last seen posting to alt.messianic.

Jim

It's not the fact that it can't exist that bothers me.   It's 
the fact that you don't seem to be able to define it.

If I wanted to hear about indefinable things that might in
principle exist as long as you don't think about them too
carefully, I could ask a religious person, now couldn't I?

I am posting this for a friend without internet access. Please inquire
to the phone number and address listed.

"Space: Teaching's Newest Frontier"
Sponsored by the Planetary Studies Foundation

The Planetary Studies Foundation is sponsoring a one week class for
teachers called "Space: Teaching's Newest Frontier." The class will be
held at the Sheraton Suites in Elk Grove, Illinois from June 14 through
June 18. Participants who complete the program can earn two semester
hours of graduate credit from Aurora College. Please note that while the
class is intended for teachers, it is not restricted to teachers.

The class, which is being cosponsored by the United States Space
Foundation, will teach how to use space exploration as a teaching tool
to get students excited about learning and interested in science.

Classroom topics to be covered by the class include:
     > Living in Space
     > The Space Shuttle
     > The Space Station
     > NASA Spinoffs that Benefit Society
     > Principles of Astrodynamics/Aeronautics
     > The Solar System

There will also be simulated Zero-G training in an underwater space
station simulation, model rocket launches, observing sessions at the
Harper College Observatory, and field trips to the Adler Planetarium and
the Museum of Science and Industry.

Featured speakers include Jerry Brown of the Colorado based United
States Space Foundation and Debbie Brown of the NASA Lewis Research
Center in Cleveland, Ohio. Additional instructors will be provided by
the Planetary Studies Foundation.

The social highlight of the class will be a dinner banquet featuring
Space Shuttle Payload Specialist Byron Lichtenberg, currently President
of Payload Systems, Inc. Lichtenberg was a member of the crew of STS-9
which flew in November 1983. The banquet is scheduled for Thursday, June
17.

The registration fee includes transportation for field trips, materials,
continental breakfasts, lunches, and the special dinner banquet. Guest
tickets for the dinner banquet are also available.  There is an
additional charge to receive the two hours of graduate credit. For any
additional information about the class, contact the Science Learning
Center at (708) 359-7913.

Or write to:
Planetary Studies Foundation
1520 W. Algonquin Rd.
Palatine, IL 60067

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted to the Internet by wmiler@nyx.cs.du.edu
 
000062David42      041493003715
 
             The Lunar Tele-operation Model One (LTM1)
             =========================================
                        By David H. Mitchell
                          March 23, 1993
 
INTRODUCTION:
 
In order to increase public interest in space-based and lunar operations, a
real miniature lunar-like environment is being constructed on which to test
tele-operated models. These models are remotely-controlled by individuals
located world-wide using their personal computers, for EduTainment
purposes.
Not only does this provide a test-bed for simple tele-operation and
tele-presence activities but it also provides for the sharing of
information
on methods of operating in space, including, but not limited to, layout of
a
lunar colony, tele-operating machines for work and play, disseminating
educational information, providing contests and awards for creativity and
achievement and provides a new way for students worldwide to participate in
Twenty-First century remote learning methods.
 
Because of the nature of the LTM1 project, people of all ages, interests
and
skills can contribute scenery and murals, models and structures,
interfacing
and electronics, software and graphics. In operation LTM1 is an evolving
playground and laboratory that can be used by children, students and
professionals worldwide. Using a personal computer at home or a terminal at
a participating institution a user is able to tele-operate real models at
the
LTM1 base for experimental or recreational purposes. Because a real
facility
exists, ample opportunity is provided for media coverage of the
construction
of the lunar model, its operation and new features to be added as suggested
by the users themselves.
 
This has broad inherent interest for a wide range of groups:
 - tele-operations and virtual reality research
 - radio control, model railroad and ham radio operation
 - astronomy and space planetariums and science centers
 - art and theater
 - bbs and online network users
 - software and game developers
 - manufacturers and retailers of model rockets, cars and trains
 - children
 - the child in all of us
 
LTM1 OVERALL DESIGN:
 
A room 14 feet by 8 feet contains the base lunar layout. The walls are used
for murals of distant moon mountains, star fields and a view of the earth.
The "floor" is the simulated lunar surface. A global call for contributions
is hereby made for material for the lunar surface, and for the design and
creation of scale models of lunar colony elements, scenery, and
machine-lets.
 
 The LTM1 initial design has 3 tele-operated machinelets:
 1. An SSTO scale model which will be able to lift off, hover and land;
 2. A bulldozerlet which will be able to move about in a quarry area; and
 3. A moon-train which will traverse most of the simulated lunar surface.
 
 Each machinelet has a small TV camera utilizing a CCD TV chip mounted on
 it. A personal computer digitizes the image (including reducing picture
 content and doing data-compression to allow for minimal images to be sent
 to the operator for control purposes) and also return control signals.
 
The first machinelet to be set up will be the moon-train since model trains
with TV cameras built in are almost off-the-shelf items and control
electronics for starting and stopping a train are minimal. The user will
receive an image once every 1 to 4 seconds depending on the speed of their
data link to LTM1.
 
Next, an SSTO scale model with a CCD TV chip will be suspended from a
servo-motor operated wire frame mounted on the ceiling allowing for the
SSTO
to be controlled by the operator to take off, hover over the entire lunar
landscape and land.
 
Finally, some tank models will be modified to be CCD TV chip equipped
bulldozerlets. The entire initial LTM1 will allow remote operators
worldwide
to receive minimal images while actually operating models for landing and
takeoff, traveling and doing work. The entire system is based on
commercially
available items and parts that can be easily obtained except for the
interface electronics which is well within the capability of many advanced
ham radio operator and computer hardware/software developers.
 
By taking a graphically oriented communications program (Dmodem) and adding
a tele-operations screen and controls, the necessary user interface can be
provided in under 80 man hours.
 
PLAN OF ACTION:
 
The Diaspar Virtual Reality Network has agreed to sponsor this project by
providing a host computer network and Internet access to that network.
Diaspar is providing the 14 foot by 8 foot facility for actual construction
of the lunar model. Diaspar has, in stock, the electronic tanks that can be
modified and one CCD TV chip. Diaspar also agrees to provide "rail stock"
for the lunar train model. Diaspar will make available the Dmodem graphical
communications package and modify it for control of the machines-lets.
An initial "ground breaking" with miniature shovels will be performed for
a live photo-session and news conference on April 30, 1993. The initial
models will be put in place. A time-lapse record will be started for
historical purposes. It is not expected that this event will be completely
serious or solemn. The lunar colony will be declared open for additional
building, operations and experiments. A photographer will be present and
the photographs taken will be converted to .gif images for distribution
world-wide to major online networks and bbs's. A press release will be
issued
calling for contributions of ideas, time, talent, materials and scale
models
for the simulated lunar colony.
 
A contest for new designs and techniques for working on the moon will then
be
announced. Universities will be invited to participate, the goal being to
find instructors who wish to have class participation in various aspects of
the lunar colony model. Field trips to LTM1 can be arranged and at that
time
the results of the class work will be added to the model. Contributors will
then be able to tele-operate any contributed machine-lets once they return
to
their campus.
 
A monthly LTM1 newsletter will be issued both electronically online and via
conventional means to the media. Any major new tele-operated equipment
addition will be marked with an invitation to the television news media.
Having a large, real model space colony will be a very attractive photo
opportunity for the television community. Especially since the "action"
will
be controlled by people all over the world. Science fiction writers will be
invited to issue "challenges" to engineering and human factors students at
universities to build and operate the tele-operated equipment to perform
lunar tasks. Using counter-weight and pulley systems, 1/6 gravity may be
simulated to some extent to try various traction challenges.
 
The long term goal is creating world-wide interest, education,
experimentation
and remote operation of a lunar colony. LTM1 has the potential of being a
long
term global EduTainment method for space activities and may be the generic
example of how to teach and explore in many other subject areas not limited
to space EduTainment. All of this facilitates the kind of spirit which can
lead to a generation of people who are ready for the leap to the stars!
 
CONCLUSION:
 
EduTainment is the blending of education and entertainment. Anyone who has
ever enjoyed seeing miniatures will probably see the potential impact of a
globally available layout for recreation, education and experimentation
purposes. By creating a tele-operated model lunar colony we not only create
world-wide publicity, but also a method of trying new ideas that require
real
(not virtual) skills and open a new method for putting people's minds in
space.
 
MOONLIGHTERS:
 
"Illuminating the path of knowledge about space and lunar development."
The following people are already engaged in various parts of this work:
David42, Rob47, Dash, Hyson, Jzer0, Vril, Wyatt, The Dark One, Tiggertoo,
The Mad Hatter, Sir Robin, Jogden.
 
Come join the discussion any Friday night from 10:30 to midnight PST in
 
Diaspar Virtual Reality Network. Ideas welcome!
 
Internet telnet to: 192.215.11.1 or diaspar.com
 
(voice)  714-376-1776
(2400bd) 714-376-1200
(9600bd) 714-376-1234

It's really not that hard to do.  There are books out there which explain
everything, and the basic 3D functions, translation, rotation, shading, and
hidden line removal are pretty easy.  I wrote a program in a few weeks witht
he help of a book, and would be happy to give you my source.
	Also, Quickdraw has a lot of 3D functions built in, and Think pascal
can access them, and I would expect that THINK C could as well.  If you can
find out how to use the Quickdraw graphics library, it would be an excellent
choice, since it has a lot of stuff, and is built into the Mac, so should be
fast.

Libertarian, atheist, semi-anarchal Techno-Rat.

yeah,

They just tore down the Kmart near my house (putting in a new suptermarket).  I
heard that there is a beer drinking ghost who still haunts the place!  8-{)

Tom

I liked this one I read a while ago...

I have seen several ray-traced scenes (from MTV or was it 
RayShade??) with stroked fonts appearing as objects in the image.
The fonts/chars had color, depth and even textures associated with
them.  Now I was wondering, is it possible to do the same in POV??

Thanks,

No.  The idea was suggested around here during discussions of possible
near-term commercial space activities.  One of the folks involved in those
discussions, a
spacecraft engineer named Preston Carter, passed the suggestion on to 
some entreprenurial types, and Mike Lawson is apparently going ahead with
it.  Preston is now at LLNL, and is working with Space Marketing on 
the sensors that might be carried.

Actually, that sounds unlikely.  I don't know what the launch vehicle
would be, but I would expect it to go on a commercial launcher --
certainly not on the Shuttle -- and the fraction of the cost paid to NASA
for, e.g.,  launch support would probably 
cover NASA's incremental costs pretty well.

No, as noted, LLNL is involved in lightweight sensor design, per 
Clementine and related programs.  I'm sure folks around here would like to 
see a demonstration of a modern inflatable structure, but after all, 
the U.S. did the Echo satellites long ago, and an advertising structure
would not be much closer to an inflatable space station than Echo was
(or a parade balloon, for that matter).

While I happen to personally dislike the idea, mostly because I've got
a background in astronomy, it's hardly vandalism -- it would be a short-lived
intrusion on the night sky, doing no permanent damage and actually hurting
only a small subset of astronomers.  On the other hand, it would certainly
draw attention to space.   

Which, unfortunately, this is not likely to contribute much to.

As far as I know, it's a purely commercial venture.

I gather it is being very seriously discussed with possible advertisers.
Commercial projects, however, generally don't get "funding" -- they
get "customers" -- whether it will have customers remains to be seen.

Nahh.  He's too busy watching for mutant bacteria to notice anything in
the sky :-)

Jordin Kare	jtk@s1.gov	Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a Proton/Centaur combo?
What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo (other
than the obvious instability in the XSSR now)?

Press Release No.19-93
Paris, 22 April 1993

Users of ESA's Olympus satellite report on the outcome of
their experiments

"Today Europe's space telecommunications sector would not
be blossoming as it now does, had OLYMPUS not provided
a testbed for the technologies and services of the 1990s". This
summarises the general conclusions of 135 speakers and 300
participants at the Conference on Olympus Utilisation held in
Seville on 20-22-April 1993. The conference was organised by
the European Space Agency (ESA) and the Spanish Centre for
the Development of Industrial Technology (CDTI).

OLYMPUS has been particularly useful :
-      in bringing satellite telecommunications to thousands of
       new users, thanks to satellite terminals with very small
       antennas (VSATs). OLYMPUS experiments have tested
       data transmission, videoconferencing, business television,
       distance teaching and rural telephony, to give but a few
       examples.

-      in opening the door to new telecommunications services
       which could not be accommodated on the crowded lower-
       frequency bands; OLYMPUS was the first satellite over
       Europe to offer capacity in the 20/30 GHz band.

-      in establishing two-way data relay links  OLYMPUS
       received for the first time in Europe, over several months,
       high-volume data from a low-Earth orbiting spacecraft and
       then distributed it to various centres in Europe.

When OLYMPUS was launched on 12 July 1989 it was the
world's largest telecommunications satellite; and no other
satellite has yet equalled its versatility in combining four
different payloads in a wide variety of frequency bands.

OLYMPUS users range from individual experimenters to some
of the world's largest businesses. Access to the satellite is
given in order to test new telecommunications techniques or
services; over the past four years some 200 companies and
organisations made use of this opportunity, as well as over
100 members of the EUROSTEP distance-learning
organisation.

As the new technologies and services tested by these
OLYMPUS users enter the commercial market, they then
make use of operational satellites such as those of
EUTELSAT.

The home office number for ENVIRONET is (301) 286-5690 (note area
code change).  A friend of mine used to use it to get LDEF data, but
he had to apply for a login name and password.  I have a call in for
more info, which I hope to get in the morning.

Oddly, enough,  The smithsonian calls the lindbergh years
the golden age of flight.  I would call it the granite years,
reflecting the primitive nature of it.  It was  romantic,
swashbuckling daredevils,  "those daring young men in their flying
machines".  But in reality, it sucked.  Death was a highly likely
occurence,  and  the environment blew.  Ever see the early navy
pressure suits,  they were modified  diving suits.  You were ready to
star in "plan 9 from outer space".   Radios  and Nav AIds were
a joke,  and engines ran on castor oil.  They  picked and called aviators
"men with iron stomachs",  and it wasn't due to vertigo.

Oddly enough, now we are in the golden age of flight.  I can hop the
shuttle to NY for $90 bucks,  now that's golden.

Mercury gemini, and apollo were romantic,  but let's be honest.
Peeing in bags,  having plastic bags glued to your butt everytime
you needed a bowel movement.  Living for days inside a VW Bug.
Romantic,  but not commercial.   The DC-X  points out a most likely
new golden age.  An age where  fat cigar smoking business men in
loud polyester space suits will fill the skys with strip malls
and used space ship lots.

hhhmmmmm,  maybe i'll  retract that golden age bit.   Maybe it was
better in the old days.  Of course, then we'll have  wally schirra
telling his great grand children, "In my day,  we walked on the moon.
Every day.  Miles.  no buses.  you kids got it soft".

(hudson)
(me)

/(hudson)
/So. Why is someone elses will such a big deal if morality is all relative.

I don't believe I ever said that morality was all relative.

What I said was that I can make my mind up on my own, thank you, and that 
you don't have the right to tell others what to think.

I think that you will find that in most moral systems, there is 
a respect for human life and the dignity of the person.  It is all the
stuff besides these points that forms the core of the disagreement between 
primitive moral absolutists like yourself and the rest of us.

/(hudson)
/Maybe (the insane lover of pain might reason) if other people experienced
/enough pain, they might learn to enjoy it, too.  

Fine.  There is still the clinical definition of crazy.  And this also
involves a violation of free will, because the insane lover of your
little example would be inflicting pain on a non-willing subject.

Try again.

(hudson)
(me)

/(hudson)
/You have to have some sort of premise about choice or self-awareness.

No, you do not.  I demonstrated to you the example of the football
team which doesn't require premises about freedom of choice or 
sentience/self-awareness.  

I would just go fetch my parents, and show them to you, and thereby
prove quite definitively that my mother is not named Merlyn, she is
not nine feet tall, and my father is quite alive.

Then I would assert quite simply that your deity does not exist, and
wait for a similar demonstration from you.

Hi netters,

	I am currently doing some investigations on "Developable Surface".
Can anyone familiar with this topic give me some information or sources
which can allow me to find some infomation of developable surface?
	Thanks for your help!

Well, this is alt.atheism.  I hope you arent here to try to convert anyone.

Many would disagree.

[...]

Well, you shouldn't give any particular book too much weight.  Actually,
I don't think that any of these statements is correct.  It is more likely
that most of Jesus' fame was attributed to him after his death by those
who had some strong motives...

[...]

What's a prophecy, and what's so significant about them?

I think we understand.

Well, sell your computer and donate you life to your religion now...
Don't waste any time.

So they should sue the newspaper I got it from for printing it.
The article didn't say anything about copyrights.

Louis

: There is a new version of the RTrace ray-tracing package (8.2.0) at
: asterix.inescn.pt [192.35.246.17] in directory pub/RTrace.
: Check the README file.

cant seem to reach the site from over here:

Dear Reader,

I'am searching for an implementation of a polygon reduction algorithm
for marching cubes surfaces. I think the best one is the reduction algorithm
from Schroeder et al., SIGGRAPH '92. So, is there any implementation of this 
algorithm, it would be very nice if you could leave it to me.

Also I'am looking for a fast !!! connectivity
test for marching cubes surfaces.

Any help or hints will be very useful.
Thanks a lot

He also ignores a few other things.  While organics would become
significantly more expensive were all the oil to disappear (and thus
some things would no longer be economically feasible), oil is hardly
an irreplaceable resource any more than most other consumables.  As
supply decreases, prices rise and alternatives become more
competetive.  He also needs to consider that there has been an
estimated 30 years of reserves pretty much as long as anyone has cared
about petroleum; whatever the current usage rate is, we always seem to
have about a 30 year reserve that we know about.

[I'm not sure that last figure is still true -- we tend not to look as
hard when prices are comparatively cheap -- but it was certainly true
during hte 'oil crisis' days of the 70's.]

-- 

Has anyone heard of or Played Buzz Aldrin's Race into Space?

Does anyone know when it is expected to be released...?

Howdy all,

	I was wondering if people could e-mail me their opinions on
the various graphics viewers available for MS-Windows 3.x...  I'm
working on a project to set up our scanner and write documentation on
how to use it and it would be nice to have a snazzy image viewer 
to look at (and maybe even edit?) the image you just scanned.

The file formats I'm looking for:

GIF
JPEG
TIFF
PCX
whatever other 'major' file formats there are.

Thanks a lot for your help

Grant

...

Funny.  A bit disturbing.  Forging a posting seems somewhat unethical, even
if the subject is as notorious as McElwaine.

Followups should definitely not go to sci.space.

Hello,
    I've recently had Povray draw about 10 sample files. The problem is that
I accidently erased the command in my povray.def that made the image a targas
file. So now the files are the dump format. How do I fix these files with out
having to re-trace them? By fix I mean, turn them into targas. Thanks in
advance.
                                                -Jerry

I became aware of the claim years ago.  So I decided to check it out, on my
own.  But, then, that was in BN times (Before Net).  So, here are some 
references.  See Robin Lane Fox's _The unauthorized version_, (p.284) where 
Lane Fox writes, "... the one passage which appears to [comment on Jesus' 
career] is agreed to be a Christian addition."

In my Re:Albert Sabin response (C5u7sJ.391@sunfish.usd.edu) to Jim Lippard (21
April 93), I noted that consensus is typically indicated subtly as in Elaine 
Pagel's _The gnostic gospels_ (p.85), to wit:  "A comment *attributed* to
Josephus reports ... [emphasis mine]".  Scholars sometimes do not even mention
the two Josephus entries, another subtlety reflecting consensus.

So far as I can deduce, today's consensus is built on at least three things: 
1) the long passage is way out of context, 2) Origen did not know about the
long passage, and 3) the short and long passages are contradictory. 
I don't know the references wherein the arguments which led to consensus are
orginally developed (does anyone?).

Biblical scholars as I defined them include theologians and historians.  The
former, like the latter, incorporate historical, social, technological and
ideological contexts as well as theology.  So the distinction is blurred.  I 
didn't elaborate on that.  Sorry.  (In turn, historians are compelled to
incorporate theology).

Can't say about the number of copies.  These were, however, BG times (Before 
Gutenburg).  A hundred first editions seems exceedingly high; counting on one 
hand seems more reasonable.  Perhaps those mss. without the long insert (if any,
because anything is possible) have been destroyed.  Such a practice is 
certainly not foreign to religions.  Anyway, all we have are mss. which have 
the two entries.  Lippart (in the message noted above) talks about an Arabic 
ms.  But here the ms. date is critical.

:-)

You totally forgot the original post that you posted Allen. In that post
you stated that the "wrap" was on top of and in addition to any overhead.
Geez in this post you finally admit that this is not true.

Come your little ol buns down here and you will find out who is doing
what and who is working on integration. This is simply an ad hominum
attack and you know it.

Of course there is a fee. It is for administration. Geez Allen any
organization has costs but there is a heck of a difference in  legitimate
costs, such as libraries and other things that must be there to support
a program and "wrap" as you originally stated it.You stated that wrap
was on top of all of the overhead which a couple of sentences down you
say is not true. Which is it Allen?

As you have posted on this subject Allen, you state that wrap is over and
above overhead and is a seperate charge. You admit here that this is wrong.
Nasa has a line item budget every year. I have seen it Allen. Get some
numbers from that detailed NASA budget and dig out the wrap numbers and then
howl to high heaven about it. Until you do that you are barking in the wind.

Integration could be done better at the centers. Apollo integration was 
done here at Msfc and that did not turn out so bad. The philosophy of
Reston is totally wrong Allen. There you have a bunch of people who are
completely removed from the work that they are trying to oversee. There
is no way that will ever work. It has never worked in any large scale project
that it was ever tried on. Could you imagine a Reston like set up for 
Apollo?

Oh you are full of it Allen on this one. I agree that JSC screwed up big.
They should be responsible for that screw up and the people that caused it
replaced. To make a stupid statement like that just shows how deep your
bias goes. Come to MSFC for a couple of weeks and you will find out just
how wrong you really are. Maybe not, people like you believe exactly what
they want to believe no matter  what the facts are contrary to it. 

I agree that integration is the single most important part of a  successful
large scale effort. What I completly disagree with is seperating that
integration function from  the people that are doing the work. It is called
leadership Allen. That is what made Apollo work. Final responsibility for
the success of Apollo was held by less than 50 people. That is leadership
and responsibility. There is neither when you have any organization set up
as Reston is. You could take the same people and move them to JSC or MSFC
and they could do a much better job. Why did it take a year for Reston to
finally say something about the problem? If they were on site and part of the
process then the problem would have never gotten out of hand in the first place.

There is one heck of a lot I do not know Allen, but one thing I do know is that
for a project to be successful you must have leadership. I remember all of the
turn over at Reston that kept SSF program in shambles for years do you? It is
lack of responsibility and leadership that is the programs problem. Lack of
leadership from the White House, Congress and at Reston. Nasa is only a
symptom of a greater national problem. You are so narrowly focused in your
efforts that you do not see this.

No, I am saying that if they were located at JSC it never would have 
happened in the first place.

I have the time to reitereate one more timet that if the leadership that is
at reston was on site at JSC the problem never would have happened, totally
ignoring the lack of leadership of congress. This many headed hydra that
has grown up at NASA is the true problem of the Agency and to try to 
change the question to suit you and your bias is only indicative of
your position.

To All -- I thought the net would find this amusing..
  
From the March 1993 "Aero Vision" (The newsletter for the Employees
of McDonnell Douglas Aerospace at Huntington Beach, California).
  
  SPACE CLIPPERS LAUNCHED SUCCESSFULLY
  
  "On Monday, March 15 at noon, Quest Aerospace Education, Inc.
  launched two DC-Y Space Clippers in the mall near the cafeteria.
  The first rocket was launched by Dr. Bill Gaubatz, director and
  SSTO program manager, and the second by Air Force Captain Ed
  Spalding, who with Staff Sgt. Don Gisburne represents Air Force
  Space Command, which was requested by SDIO to assess the DC-X for
  potential military operational use.  Both rocket launches were
  successful.  The first floated to the ground between the cafeteria
  and Building 11, and the second landed on the roof of the
  cafeteria.
  
  Quest's Space Clipper is the first flying model rocket of the
  McDonnell Douglas DC-X.  The 1/122nd semi-scale model of the
  McDonnell Douglas Delta Clipper has an estimated maximum altitude
  of 300 feet.  The Space Clippers can be used in educational
  settings to teach mathematics and science, as well as social
  studies and other applications.  The Space Clipper is available
  either in the $35 Space Clipper outfit, which includes everything
  needed for three launches, or as individual rockets for $12 each.
  Both are available through hobby shops or by calling 1-800-858-
  7302."
  
By the way -- this is not an endorsement to buy the product nor is
it an advertisement to buy the product.  I make no claims about the
product.  This is posted for public information only (hey, I found
it amusing...), and is merely a repeat of what was included in the
MDSSC Huntington Beach Newsletter.
  
-----------------------------------------------------------------
 Wales Larrison                         Space Technology Investor
  
Basically, there are two algorithms determining whether a point is inside,
outside or on the polygon. The first one is Ray (or half line) method. In
this method, you can draw any ray, if the number of the intersection point
of the ray and the polygon is even, then it is outside. If the number is odd,
then it is inside. Of cause, you have to deal with the special cases which
may make you headache.

The second method is PI algorithm. Draw the lines between the point and
all the vertices on the polygon. Calculate and sum the angles of the
successive lines. If the result is 2*PI, then it is inside. If PI, then
it is on the polygon. Otherwise it is outside.

My experience tells the second method is relible.

Hope this helps.

There has been something bothering me while watching
NASA Select for a while.  Well, I should'nt say
bothering, maybe wondering would be better.  When
they are going to launch they say (sorry but I forget
exactly who is saying what, OTC to PLT I think)
"Clear caution & warning memory.  Verify no unexpected
errors. ...".  I am wondering what an "expected error" might
be.  Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but
inquiring minds just gotta know............

How do you know? Were you there?

While obviously Koresh was a nut case, the (typical) inability of the
government/media to get its story straight is quite disturbing. On
tuesday night, NBC news reported that the FBI did not know the place
was burning down until they saw black smoke billowing from the
building. The next day, FBI agents were insisting that they saw Davidians
setting the fire. The FBI was also adamantly denying that it was possible
their battery of the compound's wallks could have accidentally set the
blaze, while also saying they hadnt been able to do much investigating
of the site because it was still too hot. So how did they KNOW they
didnt accidentally set the fire.

Sounds like the FBI just burned the place to the ground to destroy
evidence to me.

  So now we're judging the Qur'an by what's not in it?  

  How many mutton headed arguments am I going to have to wade
  through today?

  One would hope.

"Manufacturing Consent," a film about the media. You alternative movie source
may have this; or to book it in your local alternative theatre, contact:

FILMS TRANSIT * INTERNATIONAL SALES
Jan Rofekamp
402 Notre Dame E.
Montreal, Quebec
Canada H2Y 1C8
Tel (514) 844-3358 * Fax (514) 844-7298
Telex 5560074 Filmtransmtl

(US readers: call Zeitgeist Films at 212 274 1989.)

-s

If anyone is interested in the history of AMORC, I do think Spencer
Lewis published books about the beginning and his mission. The 
Alexandria bookstore (that's the name of the book store operated 
by AMORC) should have a selection that should provide the interested
reader more insight). 

Cheers,
Kent

I am coordinating the Space Shuttle Program Office's e-mail traffic to
NPO Energia for our on-going Joint Missions.  I have several e-mail
addresses for NPO Energia folks, but I won't post them on the 'Net for
obvious reasons.  If you need to know, give me a yell.

I hate to pour cold water on this, but currently seawater extracted
uranium, even using the new, improved fiber absorbers from Japan, is
about 20 times more expensive than uranium on the spot market.
Uranium is *very* cheap right now, around $10/lb.  Right now, there
are mines closing because they can't compete with places like Cigar
Lake in Canada (where the ore is so rich they present safety hazards
to the mines, who work in shielded vehicles).  Plenty of other sources
(for example, uranium from phosphate processing) would come on line before
uranium reached $200/lb.

"Demand and supply balance will collapse" is nonsense.  Supply and
demand always balance; what changes is the price.  Is uranium going
to increase in price by a factor of 20 by the end of the century?
Not bloody likely.  New nuclear reactors are not being built
at a sufficient rate.

Uranium from seawater is interesting, but it's a long term project, or
a project that the Japanese might justify on grounds of
self-sufficiency.

he

     Are we talking about ColorView for DOS here?  
     I have version 2.0 and it writes the temp files to its own
     current directory.
     What later versions do, I admit that I don't know.
     Assuming your "expert" referenced above is talking about
     the version that I have, then I'd say he is correct.
     Is the ColorView for unix what is being discussed?
     Just mixed up, confused, befuddled, but genuinely and
     entirely curious....

     Uncle Fester

I think this is a little inaccurate, based on Feynman's account of the
software-development process *before* the standdown.  Fred is basically
correct:  no sophisticated tools, just a lot of effort and painstaking
care.  But they got this one right *before* Challenger; Feynman cited
the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people.  (He
also noted that the software people were starting to feel management
pressure to cut corners, but hadn't had to give in to it much yet.)

Among other things, the software people worked very hard to get things
right for the major pre-flight simulations, and considered a failure
during those simulations to be nearly as bad as an in-flight failure.
As a result, the number of major-simulation failures could be counted
on one hand, and the number of in-flight failures was zero.

As Fred mentioned elsewhere, this applies only to the flight software.
Software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the
experimenters, and gets nowhere near the same level of Tender Loving Care.
(None of the experimenters could afford it.)

Archive-name: space/controversy
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:06 $

CONTROVERSIAL QUESTIONS

    These issues periodically come up with much argument and few facts being
    offered. The summaries below attempt to represent the position on which
    much of the net community has settled. Please DON'T bring them up again
    unless there's something truly new to be discussed. The net can't set
    public policy, that's what your representatives are for.

    WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SATURN V PLANS

    Despite a widespread belief to the contrary, the Saturn V blueprints
    have not been lost. They are kept at Marshall Space Flight Center on
    microfilm.

    The problem in re-creating the Saturn V is not finding the drawings, it
    is finding vendors who can supply mid-1960's vintage hardware (like
    guidance system components), and the fact that the launch pads and VAB
    have been converted to Space Shuttle use, so you have no place to launch
    from.

    By the time you redesign to accommodate available hardware and re-modify
    the launch pads, you may as well have started from scratch with a clean
    sheet design.

    WHY DATA FROM SPACE MISSIONS ISN'T IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE

    Investigators associated with NASA missions are allowed exclusive access
    for one year after the data is obtained in order to give them an
    opportunity to analyze the data and publish results without being
    "scooped" by people uninvolved in the mission. However, NASA frequently
    releases examples (in non-digital form, e.g. photos) to the public early
    in a mission.

    RISKS OF NUCLEAR (RTG) POWER SOURCES FOR SPACE PROBES

    There has been extensive discussion on this topic sparked by attempts to
    block the Galileo and Ulysses launches on grounds of the plutonium
    thermal sources being dangerous. Numerous studies claim that even in
    worst-case scenarios (shuttle explosion during launch, or accidental
    reentry at interplanetary velocities), the risks are extremely small.
    Two interesting data points are (1) The May 1968 loss of two SNAP 19B2
    RTGs, which landed intact in the Pacific Ocean after a Nimbus B weather
    satellite failed to reach orbit. The fuel was recovered after 5 months
    with no release of plutonium. (2) In April 1970, the Apollo 13 lunar
    module reentered the atmosphere and its SNAP 27 RTG heat source, which
    was jettisoned, fell intact into the 20,000 feet deep Tonga Trench in
    the Pacific Ocean. The corrosion resistant materials of the RTG are
    expected to prevent release of the fuel for a period of time equal to 10
    half-lives of the Pu-238 fuel or about 870 years [DOE 1980].

    To make your own informed judgement, some references you may wish to
    pursue are:

    A good review of the technical facts and issues is given by Daniel
    Salisbury in "Radiation Risk and Planetary Exploration-- The RTG
    Controversy," *Planetary Report*, May-June 1987, pages 3-7. Another good
    article, which also reviews the events preceding Galileo's launch,
    "Showdown at Pad 39-B," by Robert G. Nichols, appeared in the November
    1989 issue of *Ad Astra*. (Both magazines are published by pro-space
    organizations, the Planetary Society and the National Space Society
    respectively.)

    Gordon L Chipman, Jr., "Advanced Space Nuclear Systems" (AAS 82-261), in
    *Developing the Space Frontier*, edited by Albert Naumann and Grover
    Alexander, Univelt, 1983, p. 193-213.

    "Hazards from Plutonium Toxicity", by Bernard L. Cohen, Health Physics,
    Vol 32 (may) 1977, page 359-379.

    NUS Corporation, Safety Status Report for the Ulysses Mission: Risk
    Analysis (Book 1). Document number is NUS 5235; there is no GPO #;
    published Jan 31, 1990.

    NASA Office of Space Science and Applications, *Final Environmental
    Impact Statement for the Ulysses Mission (Tier 2)*, (no serial number or
    GPO number, but probably available from NTIS or NASA) June 1990.

    [DOE 1980] U.S.  Department of Energy, *Transuranic Elements in the
    Environment*, Wayne C.  Hanson, editor; DOE Document No.  DOE/TIC-22800;
    Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., April 1980.)

    IMPACT OF THE SPACE SHUTTLE ON THE OZONE LAYER

    From time to time, claims are made that chemicals released from
    the Space Shuttle's Solid Rocket Boosters (SRBs) are responsible
    for a significant amount of damage to the ozone layer. Studies
    indicate that they in reality have only a minute impact, both in
    absolute terms and relative to other chemical sources. The
    remainder of this item is a response from the author of the quoted
    study, Charles Jackman.

    The atmospheric modelling study of the space shuttle effects on the
    stratosphere involved three independent theoretical groups, and was
    organized by Dr. Michael Prather, NASA/Goddard Institute for Space
    Studies.  The three groups involved Michael Prather and Maria Garcia
    (NASA/GISS), Charlie Jackman and Anne Douglass (NASA/Goddard Space
    Flight Center), and Malcolm Ko and Dak Sze (Atmospheric and
    Environmental Research, Inc.).  The effort was to look at the effects
    of the space shuttle and Titan rockets on the stratosphere.

    The following are the estimated sources of stratospheric chlorine:

       Industrial sources:    300,000,000 kilograms/year
	  Natural sources:     75,000,000 kilograms/year
	  Shuttle sources:	  725,000 kilograms/year

    The shuttle source assumes 9 space shuttles and 6 Titan rockets are
    launched yearly. Thus the launches would add less than 0.25% to the
    total stratospheric chlorine sources.

    The effect on ozone is minimal:  global yearly average total ozone would
    be decreased by 0.0065%. This is much less than total ozone variability
    associated with volcanic activity and solar flares.

    The influence of human-made chlorine products on ozone is computed
    by atmospheric model calculations to be a 1% decrease in globally
    averaged ozone between 1980 and 1990. The influence of the space shuttle and
    Titan rockets on the stratosphere is negligible.  The launch
    schedule of the Space Shuttle and Titan rockets would need to be
    increased by over a factor of a hundred in order to have about
    the same effect on ozone as our increases in industrial halocarbons
    do at the present time.

    Theoretical results of this study have been published in _The Space
    Shuttle's Impact on the Stratosphere_, MJ Prather, MM Garcia, AR
    Douglass, CH Jackman, M.K.W. Ko and N.D. Sze, Journal of Geophysical
    Research, 95, 18583-18590, 1990.

    Charles Jackman, Atmospheric Chemistry and Dynamics Branch,
    Code 916, NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center,
    Greenbelt, MD  20771

    Also see _Chemical Rockets and the Environment_, A McDonald, R Bennett,
    J Hinshaw, and M Barnes, Aerospace America, May 1991.

    HOW LONG CAN A HUMAN LIVE UNPROTECTED IN SPACE

    If you *don't* try to hold your breath, exposure to space for half a
    minute or so is unlikely to produce permanent injury. Holding your
    breath is likely to damage your lungs, something scuba divers have to
    watch out for when ascending, and you'll have eardrum trouble if your
    Eustachian tubes are badly plugged up, but theory predicts -- and animal
    experiments confirm -- that otherwise, exposure to vacuum causes no
    immediate injury. You do not explode. Your blood does not boil. You do
    not freeze. You do not instantly lose consciousness.

    Various minor problems (sunburn, possibly "the bends", certainly some
    [mild, reversible, painless] swelling of skin and underlying tissue)
    start after ten seconds or so. At some point you lose consciousness from
    lack of oxygen. Injuries accumulate. After perhaps one or two minutes,
    you're dying. The limits are not really known.

    References:

    _The Effect on the Chimpanzee of Rapid Decompression to a Near Vacuum_,
    Alfred G. Koestler ed., NASA CR-329 (Nov 1965).

    _Experimental Animal Decompression to a Near Vacuum Environment_, R.W.
    Bancroft, J.E. Dunn, eds, Report SAM-TR-65-48 (June 1965), USAF School
    of Aerospace Medicine, Brooks AFB, Texas.

    HOW THE CHALLENGER ASTRONAUTS DIED

    The Challenger shuttle launch was not destroyed in an explosion. This is
    a well-documented fact; see the Rogers Commission report, for example.
    What looked like an explosion was fuel burning after the external tank
    came apart. The forces on the crew cabin were not sufficient to kill the
    astronauts, never mind destroy their bodies, according to the Kerwin
    team's medical/forensic report.

    The astronauts were killed when the more-or-less intact cabin hit the
    water at circa 200MPH, and their bodies then spent several weeks
    underwater. Their remains were recovered, and after the Kerwin team
    examined them, they were sent off to be buried.

    USING THE SHUTTLE BEYOND LOW EARTH ORBIT

    You can't use the shuttle orbiter for missions beyond low Earth orbit
    because it can't get there. It is big and heavy and does not carry
    enough fuel, even if you fill part of the cargo bay with tanks.

    Furthermore, it is not particularly sensible to do so, because much of
    that weight is things like wings, which are totally useless except in
    the immediate vicinity of the Earth. The shuttle orbiter is highly
    specialized for travel between Earth's surface and low orbit. Taking it
    higher is enormously costly and wasteful. A much better approach would
    be to use shuttle subsystems to build a specialized high-orbit
    spacecraft.

    [Yet another concise answer by Henry Spencer.]

    THE "FACE ON MARS"

    There really is a big rock on Mars that looks remarkably like a humanoid
    face. It appears in two different frames of Viking Orbiter imagery:
    35A72 (much more facelike in appearance, and the one more often
    published, with the Sun 10 degrees above western horizon) and 70A13
    (with the Sun 27 degrees from the west).

    Science writer Richard Hoagland has championed the idea that the Face is
    artificial, intended to resemble a human, and erected by an
    extraterrestrial civilization. Most other analysts concede that the
    resemblance is most likely accidental. Other Viking images show a
    smiley-faced crater and a lava flow resembling Kermit the Frog elsewhere
    on Mars. There exists a Mars Anomalies Research Society (sorry, don't
    know the address) to study the Face.

    The Mars Observer mission will carry an extremely high-resolution
    camera, and better images of the formation will hopefully settle this
    question in a few years. In the meantime, speculation about the Face is
    best carried on in the altnet group alt.alien.visitors, not sci.space or
    sci.astro.

    V. DiPeitro and G. Molenaar, *Unusual Martian Surface Features*, Mars
    Research, P.O. Box 284, Glen Dale, Maryland, USA, 1982. $18 by mail.

    R.R. Pozos, *The Face of Mars*, Chicago Review Press, 1986. [Account of
    an interdisciplinary speculative conference Hoagland organized to
    investigate the Face]

    R.C. Hoagland, *The Monuments of Mars: A City on the Edge of Forever*,
    North Atlantic Books, Berkeley, California, USA, 1987. [Elaborate
    discussion of evidence and speculation that formations near the Face
    form a city]

    M.J. Carlotto, "Digital Imagery Analysis of Unusual Martian Surface
    Features," *Applied Optics*, 27, pp. 1926-1933, 1987. [Extracts
    three-dimensional model for the Face from the 2-D images]

    M.J. Carlotto & M.C. Stein, "A Method of Searching for Artificial
    Objects on Planetary Surfaces," *Journal of the British Interplanetary
    Society*, Vol. 43 no. 5 (May 1990), p.209-216. [Uses a fractal image
    analysis model to guess whether the Face is artificial]

    B. O'Leary, "Analysis of Images of the `Face' on Mars and Possible
    Intelligent Origin," *JBIS*, Vol. 43 no. 5 (May 1990), p. 203-208.
    [Lights Carlotto's model from the two angles and shows it's consistent;
    shows that the Face doesn't look facelike if observed from the surface]

                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

a) I think that he has a rather witty .sig file.  It sums up a great
   deal of atheistic thought (IMO) in one simple sentence.
b) Atheism isn't an "other religion".

 This is one of my favorite fallacious points against atheism, i.e. the 
 belief that you can't deny anything that you can't prove doesn't exist.
 This is easily nailed by showing that an infinite number of beings are
 conceivable but not observed to exist, does this mean that we would have
 to believe in all of them?  According to the above poster, we must believe
 in objects or beings that haven't been proved not to exist so why stop at
 God?   (there could be a huge number of beings identical to Ronald Reagan
 except for trivial differences, say one is missing a finger, one has blond
 hair,... and they all live  on other planets so we can't see them)  The 
 reason no one but atheists bring this up is that none of these christians
 have a vested interest in these unknown beings with the exception of God.

 How did they shoot themselves in the foot?

  There is a big difference here, Stalin didn't say that he stood for a 
  particular moral position (i.e. against murder and terrorism, etc.) and
  then did the opposite (like the religious movements), he was at least
  an honest killer.  (This is NOT a support of Stalin but an attack on this
  viewpoint).  Saying that atheism supports murder and violence just because
  one man was a tyrant and an atheist is just bad logic, look at all the
  russians that helped Stalin that weren't atheists - don't they contradict
  your point?  Besides your point assumes that his atheism was relevant
  to his murdering people, this is just the common assumption that atheists
  can't value life as much as theists (which you didn't support).  

 Ah, and here's another point you didn't get out of the FAQ.  An atheist
 doesn't have to hold the positive view that god doesn't exist, he/she may
 just have the non-existence of the positive belief.  Here's the example:
 
 Strong atheism - "I believe god does not exist"   a positive belief

 Weak atheism   - "I don't believe in a god"       a negative belief
 
 these are NOT the same, some one that has never thought of the idea of
 god in their whole life is technically an atheist, but not the kind that
 you are calling unreasonable.  Or let's look at it this way (in sets)
 
 suppose that a given person has a huge set of ideas that I will represent
 as capital letters and these people then either believe that these ideas
 exist as real objects or not.  So if S = santa, then E(S)= no is the person
 not believing in santa but still having the idea of santa.  But notice that
 even E(S) = no  is itself another idea!  This means you have lots of cases:
 
 christian :  (A,E(A)=yes,B,E(B)=no,  . . . G,E(G)=yes......) where G = god
 
 atheist (strong) : (A,E(A). . . . .G,E(G)=no)
 
 atheist (weak) : (A,.....E)     i.e. no G at all in the set
 
 agnostic :  (A,.......G, E(G) = indeterminate, E', ....) 

 Nietzsche once said that a man would rather will nonexistence than not
  will at all but the darwinist way to put this is that humanity always 
  prefers no or yes to a maybe because indecision is not a useful survival
  trait, evolution has drilled it in us to take positions, even false ones.

: }Xenophobia, both *de facto* and *de jure* as implemented
: }in legal systems, is widespread, while the Bible,
: }although not 100% egalitarian, specifically preaches
: }kindness to the stranger, and emphasizes in the Book
: }of Ruth, that a foreigner can join the nation and
: }give rise to one of the great heroes of the nation.
: 
: Clearly better than the alternative, but as an American what strikes
: me as strange about this story is that it should have even been
: considered an issue.

Jim,

There are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread
that are a little confusing. An atheist is one for whom all things can
be understood as processes of nature - exclusively. There is no need
for any recourse to Divnity to describe or explain anything. There is
no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by
physics, chemistry, biology, etc.; everything is random, nothing is
determnined.
This would also have to include human intelligence of course and all
its products. There is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it
acquire intelligence, it's just a happy accident. For an atheist, no
event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less
value than another in any naturalistic sense, and no thought -about-
an event can have value. 
The products of our intelligence are acquired from our environment,
from teaching, training, observation and experience and are only
significant to the individual mind wherein they reside. These mental
processes and the images they produce for us are just electrical
activity and nothing more; content is of no consequence. The human
mind is as much a response to natural forces as water running down a
hill.
How then can an atheist judge value? What is the basis for criticizing
the values ennumerated in the Bible or the purposes imputed to God? On
what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned? It
seems that, in judging the values that motivate others to action, you
have to have some standard against which conduct is measured, but what
in nature can serve that purpose? What law of nature can you invoke to
establish your values.
Since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event, what
difference could it possibly make what -anyone- does, religious or
otherwise, there can be no -meaning- or gradation of value. The only
way an atheist can object to -any- behaviour is to admit that the
objection is entirely subjective and that he(she) just doesn't like it
- that's it. Any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer
that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries
no weight in any "absolute" sense.
That you don't like what God told people to do says nothing about God
or God's commands, it says only that there was an electrical event in your
nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled
with a pre-existing thought-set to form that reaction. That your
objections -seem- well founded is due to the way you've been
conditioned; there is no "truth" content. The whole of your
intellectual landscape is an illusion, a virtual reality.
I didn't make these rules, it's inherent in naturalistic atheism and
to be consistent, you have to accept the non-significance of any human
thought, even your own. All of this being so, you have excluded
yourself from any discussion of values, right, wrong, goood, evil,
etc. and cannot participate. Your opinion about the Bible can have no
weight whatsoever.

[...lots of stuff about intellectual errors deleted...]

This is cute, but I see no statement telling me why your church is the true 
church. I do presume that you know or at least believe that yours is true. 
Attempting to ream my faith without replacing it with something "better" is 
a real good way to loose a person completely from Christ.

This is the greatest reason I see that these attacks are not motivated by 
love. They only seek to destroy there is no building or replacing of belief. 
This is not something Christ did. He guided and instructed He didn't 
seek to destroy the faith He found, He redirected it. 

This is what I see when people say they "love" <insert favorite group here>. 
And I have to laugh at the irony. 

Deuteronmy 20:13
And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite
every male thereof with the edge of the sword

Joshua 6:21
And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, bith man and women,
young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

Having thought about this, why don't you project the 2 lines onto the 2d
plane formed by the lines.  Do an intersection calculation in the plane in
2D, where you're guaranteed a unique solution (unless they're parallel which
won't happen in this case), and then use parametric distance along the lines
from the circle centres to determine the exact point of interest.  This
bypasses the messy error propogation required to do the calculation in 3d.

Hope I haven't put my foot in it again!

steve
---

Punchline #3: it would be a good idea just to leave them there.

-Tommy Mac

What would all of you out there in net land think of the big 6 (Martin
Mariatta, Boeing, Mcdonell Douglas, General Dynamics, Lockheed, Rockwell)
getting together, and forming a consortium to study exactly what the market
price pints are for building reusable launch vehicles, and spending say
$3million to do that.  Recognizing that most of the military requirements
for launch vehicles are pulled out of a hat somewhere (say, has the shuttle 
ever really used that 1200mi crossrange capability?  You get the idea, figure
out how many, how often, where to, etc...)

Then taking this data, and forming a sematech type company (bad example, I
know... but at least its an example...)  To develop between 3 and 5 craft
designs.  Then to take all of those designs, and figure out EXACTLY what
the technologies are, and demonstrate those technologies, in order to 
eliminate designs that can't be built today.  And lets say that this
portion again funded by the GOV cost about $20 million.

And from here all of these companies went their separate ways, with the
intention of taking all of the market data and the design data to wall
street, and saying "I want to build this vehicle, and here are the numbers
that show %20 ROI, fund me...)

Now many of you think that this is a joke, but I have it on good authority that
just this project is shaping up in the background. It seems that the aerospace
companies have learned that everyone yelling similar but different things
ends up in many programs that do nothing much and get canceled (NASP, NLS,
ALS, DCY?, etc...)  They need to work more in the japaneese, and european
spirit of initial cooperation.  They have also learned that design requirements
that are phony (I.E. some generals idea of what a space vehicle ought to be)
ends up getting chopped up in congress, because it is not a REAL requirement.

Any feedback?

  Gosh, Gregg.  I'm pretty good a reading between the lines, but
  you've given me precious little to work with in this refutation.
  Could you maybe flesh it out just a bit?  Or did I miss the full
  grandeur of it's content by virtue of my blinding atheism?

As an Amateur Radio operator (VHF 2metres) I like to keep up with what is 
going up (and for that matter what is coming down too).
 
In about 30 days I have learned ALOT about satellites current, future and 
past all the way back to Vanguard series and up to Astro D observatory 
(space).  I borrowed a book from the library called Weater Satellites (I 
think, it has a photo of the earth with a TIROS type satellite on it.)
 
I would like to build a model or have a large color poster of one of the 
TIROS satellites I think there are places in the USA that sell them.
ITOS is my favorite looking satellite, followed by AmSat-OSCAR 13 
(AO-13).
 
TTYL
73
Jim

Bobby-

A few posts ago you said that Lucifer had no free will.  From the above
it seems the JW believes the contrary.

Are you talking about the same Lucifer?

If so, can you suggest an experiment to determine which of you is wrong?

Or do you claim that you are both right?

Australian Pattern Recognition Society

                         2nd CALL FOR PAPERS

                               DICTA-93

                          2nd Conference on -

         DIGITAL IMAGING COMPUTING: TECHNIQUES AND APPLICATIONS

Location: Macquarie Theatre
          Macquarie University
          Sydney

Date: 8-10 December 1993.

   DICTA-93 is the second biennial national conference of the
Australian Pattern Recognition Society.

   This event will provide an opportunity for any persons with an
interest in computer vision, digital image processing/analysis and other
aspects of pattern recognition to become informed about contemporary
developments in the area, to exchange ideas, to establish contacts and
to share details of their own work with others.

        The Following invited speakers will provide specialised
presentations:

Prof Gabor T. Herman, University of Pennsylvania on Medical Imaging.

Prof. R.M. Hodgson, Massey University New Zealand on Computer Vision.

Prof. Dominique Juelin, Centre de Morphologie Mathematique, Paris on
Mathematical Morphology.

Prof. John Richards, Aust. Defence Force Academy, Canberra on Remote
Sensing.

Dr. Phillip K. Robertson, CSIRO Division of Information Technology,
Canberra on Interactive Visualisation.

   The conference will concentrate on (but is not limited to) the
following areas of image processing:-

                * Computer Vision and Object Recognition
                * Motion Analysis
                * Morphology
                * Medical Imaging
                * Fuzzy logic and Neural Networks
                * Image Coding
                * Machine Vision and Robotics
                * Enhancement and Restoration
                * Visualisation
                * Industrial Applications
                * Software and Hardware Tools

   Papers are sought for presentation at the conference and publication
in the conference proceedings. Submission for peer review should consist
of an extended abstract of 750-1000 words of doubled spaced text, summarizing the
technical aspects of the paper and any results that will be quoted.
Final papers should be limited to no more than 8 pages of text and
illustrations in camera-ready form.

   Four (4) copies of the abstract should be sent to:

                               DICTA-93
                          C/- Tony Adriaansen
                  CSIRO - Division of Wool Technology
                                PO Box 7
                             Ryde NSW 2112
                               Australia

                            IMPORTANT DATES

                Abstract due            - 25th June 1993
                Acceptance notified     - 27th August 1993
                Final paper due         - 15th October 1993

SOCIAL PROGRAM:

The conference dinner will be held on the Thursday 9th of December 1993.
Other social activities are being arranged.

Situated on a beautiful harbour, Sydney has many and varied places of
interest. The Opera House and Harbour Bridge are just two of the well
known landmarks. Harbour cruises, city tours to the Blue Mountains run
daily. We can provide further information on request.

ACCOMMODATION:

Accommodation within 15 min walking distance is available, ranging from
college style to 5 star Hotel facilities. Information will be supplied
upon request.

CONFERENCE FEES:

                        before 30th Sep.        After 30th Sep.
APRS Members              A$220                   A$250
APRS Student Members      A$120                   A$150
Others                    A$250                   A$280

Conference Dinner         A$35
on Dec 9th 1993

-------------------------------------------------------------
                ADVANCED REGISTRATION

Name:
Organisation:
Address

Phone:
Fax:
email:

                - I am a current Member of APRS.

                - I am not a current member of APRS.

                - Please send me information on accommodation.

I enclose a cheque for

Please send the above form to

DICTA-93
C/- Tony Adriaansen
CSIRO - Division of Wool Technology
PO Box 7
Ryde NSW 2112
Australia

The cheques should be made payable to DICTA-93.

For further information contact:
* Tony Adriaansen (02) 809 9495
* Athula Ginigie  (02) 330 2393
* email: dicta93@ee.uts.edu.au

   >Does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks
   >for sounding rockets?

   Well, first you work out how much cold gas you need, then make the
   tanks big enough.

Our sounding rocket payload, with telemetry, guidance, etc. etc. and a
telescope cluster, weighs around 1100 pounds.  It uses freon jets for
steering and a pulse-width-modulated controller for alignment (ie
during our eight minutes in space, the jets are pretty much
continuously firing on a ~10% duty cycle or so...).  The jets also
need to kill residual angular momentum from the spin stabilization, and
flip the payload around to look at the Sun.

We have two freon tanks, each holding ~5 liters of freon (I'm speaking
only from memory of the last flight).  The ground crew at WSMR choose how
much freon to use based on some black-magic algorithm.  They have
extra tank modules that just bolt into the payload stack.

This should give you an idea of the order of magnitude for cold gas 
quantity.  If you really need to know, send me email and I'll try to get you
in touch with our ground crew people.

Cheers,
Craig

One book I have which presents a fairly unbiased account of many religions
is called _Man's Religions_ by John B. Noss.  It was a textbook in a class
I had on comparative religion or some such thing.  It has some decent
bibliographies on each chapter as a jumping off point for further reading.

It doesn't "compare" religions directly but describes each one individually
and notes a few similarities.  But nothing I have read in it could be even
remotely described as preachy or Christian based.  In fact, Christianity
mercifully consumes only 90 or so of its nearly 600 pages.  The book is
divided according to major regions of the world where the biggies began 
(India, East Asia, Near East).  There is nothing about New World religions
from the Aztecs, Mayas, Incas, etc.  Just the stuff people kill each
other over nowadays.  And a few of the older religions snuffed out along
the way.  

SAMPE, NCGA, The University of Akron, and NASA Lewis Research Center
is sponsoring:

                      COMPUTERS AND COMPOSITES

	A one-day seminar devoted to practical applications of
	computer workstations for efficient processing, design, and
			Manufacture of composites

May 18, 1993
at
 The University of Akron
  Akron, Ohio

Speakers on:
 Advancement in Graphics Visualization   Dr. Jay Horowitz, NASA
 Integrated Product Development with     Mr. Michael R. Cowen
  Network Workstations		          Sikorski Aircraft
 Structural Analysis			 Mr. Brian Fite, NASA
 Stereolithography			 Mr. Jason Williams, Penn State-Erie
 Molecular and Physical Modeling	 Dr. Vassilios Galiatsato,
  of Polymer Curing                       University of Akron
 Process Modeling of Polymer
  Matrix Composites			 Dr Ram Upadhyay, GE Corporate R&D

Registration Fees: $75.00 Advance, $100.00 on site (Includes box lunch)

Contact Gary Roberts, NASA Lewis Research Center (216) 433-344
or write:
	SAMPE Regional Seminar
	c/o Gary Roberts
	NASA Lewis Research Center
	21000 Brookpark Rd MS 49-1
	Cleveland, Ohio 44135

Or Email to me, | and I'll get it to Gary.
		|
	        \/

The following are my thoughts on a meeting that I, Hugh Kelso, and Bob Lilly
had with an aide of Sen. Patty Murrays.  We were there to discuss SSTO, and
commercial space.  This is how it went...

After receiving a packet containing a presentation on the benifits of SSTO,
I called and tried to schedule a meeting with our local Senator (D) Patty
Murray, Washington State.  I started asking for an hour, and when I heard
the gasp on the end of the phone, I quickly backed off to 1/2 an hour.
Later in that conversation, I learned that a standard appointment is 15 minutes.

We got the standard bozo treatment.  That is, we were called back by an aide,
who scheduled a meeting with us, in order to determine that we were not
bozos, and to familiarize himself with the material, and to screen it, to 
make sure that it was appropriate to take the senators time with that material.

Well, I got allocated 1/2 hour with Sen. Murrays aide, and we ended up talking
to him for 45 minutes, with us ending the meeting, and him still listening.
We covered a lot of ground, and only a little tiny bit was DCX specific.  
Most of it was a single stage reusable vehicle primer.  There was another
woman there who took copius quantities of notes on EVERY topic that
we brought up.

But, with Murray being new, we wanted to entrench ourselves as non-corporate
aligned (I.E. not speaking for boeing) local citizens interentested in space.
So, we spent a lot of time covering the benifits of lower cost access to
LEO.  Solar power satellites are a big focus here, so we hit them as becoming 
feasible with lower cost access, and we hit the environmental stand on that.
We hit the tourism angle, and I left a copy of the patric Collins Tourism
paper, with side notes being that everyone who goes into space, and sees the
atmosphere becomes more of an environmentalist, esp. after SEEING the smog
over L.A.  We hit on the benifits of studying bone decalcification (which is 
more pronounced in space, and said that that had POTENTIAL to lead to 
understanding of, and MAYBE a cure for osteoporosis.  We hit the education 
whereby kids get enthused by space, but as they get older and find out that
they havent a hop in hell of actually getting there, they go on to other
fields, with low cost to orbit, the chances they might get there someday 
would provide greater incentive to hit the harder classes needed.

We hit a little of the get nasa out of the operational launch vehicle business
angle.  We hit the lower cost of satellite launches, gps navigation, personal
communicators, tellecommunications, new services, etc...  Jobs provided
in those sectors.

Jobs provided building the thing, balance of trade improvement, etc..
We mentioned that skypix would benifit from lower launch costs.

We left the paper on what technologies needed to be invested in in order
to make this even easier to do.  And he asked questions on this point.

We ended by telling her that we wanted her to be aware that efforts are
proceeding in this area, and that we want to make sure that the
results from these efforts are not lost (much like condor, or majellan),
and most importantly, we asked that she help fund further efforts along
the lines of lowering the cost to LEO.

In the middle we also gave a little speal about the Lunar Resource Data 
Purchase act, and the guy filed it separately, he was VERY interested in it.
He asked some questions about it, and seemed like he wanted to jump on it,
and contact some of the people involved with it, so something may actually
happen immediatly there.

The last two things we did were to make sure that they knew that we
knew a lot of people in the space arena here in town, and that they
could feel free to call us any time with questions, and if we didn't know
the answers, that we would see to it that they questions got to people who
really did know the answers.

Then finally, we asked for an appointment with the senator herself.  He
said that we would get on the list, and he also said that knowing her, this
would be something that she would be very interested in, although they
do have a time problem getting her scheduled, since she is only in the
state 1 week out of 6 these days.

All in all we felt like we did a pretty good job.

I am not aware of any "Turkish Caliphate" viewpoint on this. Can you
reference?

However, I found a quote due to Imam Ali, whom the Shias follow:

"Men, never obey your women in any way whatsoever. Never let them give their
advice on any matter whatsoever, even those of everyday life. Indeed, allow
them freely to give advice on anything and they will fritter away one's
wealth and disobey the wishes of the owner of this wealth.
  We see them without religion, when, alone, they are left to their own
devices; they are lacking in both pity and virtue when their carnal
desires are at stake. It is easy to enjoy them, but they cause great
anxiety. The most virtious among them are libertines. But the most
corrupt are whores. Only those of them whom age has deprived of any
charm are untainted by vice. They have three qualities particular to
miscreants; they complain of being oppressed, whereas it is they
who oppress; they make oaths, whereas they are lying; they pretend
to refuse men's solicitations, whereas they desire them most ardently.
Let us beg the help of God to emerge victorious from their evil deeds.
And preserve us in any case from their good ones."

(Quote from Mas'ud al-Qanawi, ref. A. Bouhdiba, Sexuality in Islam, 
p. 118).

I wouldn't consider this quote as being exemplary of the Islamic (TM)
viewpoint though.  For all we know, the prophet's cousin and
the Fourth Khalif Hazret-i Ali may have said this after a frustrating 
night with a woman.

Selim Guncer

Hi.  I'm writing a program to convert .dxf files to a database
format used by a 3D graphics program I've written.  My program stores
the points of a polygon in CCW order.  I've used 3D Concepts a 
little and it seems that the points are stored in the order
they are drawn.

Does the DXF format have a way of indicating which order the 
points are stored in, CW or CCW?  Its easy enough to convert,
but if I don't know which way they are stored, I dont know 
which direction the polygon should be visible from.

If DXF doesn't handle this, can anyone recommend a workaround?
The best I can think of is to create two polygons for each one
in the DXF file, one stored CW and the other CCW.  But that
doubles the number of polygons and decreases speed...

Thanks in advance for any help,

What hardware do plan to run on?  Workstation or PC?  Cost level?
Run-time licensing needs?

Bob

Gregg, I'm really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice
things aren't quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim
them to be upsets you, but exactly who is being childish here is 
open to question.

BBCI was an example of an Islamically owned and operated bank -
what will someone bet me they weren't "real" Islamic owners and
operators? - and yet it actually turned out to be a long-running
and quite ruthless operation to steal money from small and often
quite naive depositors.

And why did these naive depositors put their life savings into
BCCI rather than the nasty interest-motivated western bank down
the street?   Could it be that they believed an Islamically owned 
and operated bank couldn't possibly cheat them? 

So please don't try to con us into thinking that it will all 
work out right next time.

I read it refered to as the "parabolic cross-section" rule;
the idea was that if you plot the area of the fuselage cross-
section as a function of the point fore-and-aft along the 
fuselage, a plot that is a **paraboloid** minimizes somethin' 
or 'nother (to be technical about it).

I can't fiqure this out.  I have properly compiled pov on a unix machine
running SunOS 4.1.3  The problem is that when I run the sample .pov files and
use the EXACT same parameters when compiling different .tga outputs.  Some
of the .tga's are okay, and other's are unrecognizable by any software.

Sorry.   Wrong.    This is how banks got started in the first place.
Sooner or later your father and his pals will lend money to someone
who eventually goes broke, and then they will realise that they
havn't been managing risk very well.   Then they will ask themselves
what it is that they need to quantify risk, and to persuade borrowers
not to take on greater loans than they can carry.    And since they
don't all want the worry of doing the calculations and handling the
money, some of them will specialise in that.

Then they'll reinvent interest, but like good Muslims, they'll call
it something else.

Riiiight.   That's why John Major opened a new government department
a couple of months ago to help to promote minority business.   Because
they can do it all themselves by lending one another cups of sugar.

	I agree, we spend too much energy on the nonexistance of God.

--

       "Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.  
        They do what god tells them to do. "

If you were omniscient, you'd know who exactly did what, and with what
purpose in mind.  Then, with a particular goal in mind, you sould be
able to methodically judge whether or not this action was in accordance
with the general goal.

In an objective system, there are known goals.  Then, actions are judged
as either being compatible with these goals, or not.  Simple.  The problem
with most systems in current practice is that the goals differ.  That is,
the goals of each society are different.

Note that an objective system is not necessarily an inherent one.

I've said it many, many times.

Which part do you have a problem with?

But, we can enslave the animals, right?  But just not kill them?  Or
are you a vegetarian for health reasons?

No.  I fail to see how my *personal* views are relevant, anyway.

Of course not.  It seems perfectly valid to kill members of other species
for food.  It might be nice, though, if the other animals were not made
to suffer.  For instance, a cow in a field lives out its life just about
the same way it would in the wild.  They seem happy enough.  However,
the veal youngsters aren't treated very well.

I don't know.  What is the goal of this particular system?  There is no
inherent system.

Nope.  Again, it seems okay to kill other species for food.

Let's see, if Alexander destroyed Tyre, and people move back, and
they construct houses, and after a while 14000 people live there
and still call it Tyre, it is not considered to be rebuilt. Instead
it's considered to be 'just-some-people-that-got-together-for-fishing-
and-they-needed-houses' place.

Sigh, I was never born in a city then (my home town has 10.000
people). I have to consult my city and inform them that it's from
now a fishing village. When this city (Kristinestad) was founded
in the 17:th century about 1000 people lived there, so the norms
were even more bizarre for dumb Swedish queens who founded cities
along the coast of Finland.

I would like to know why Paul thought is was worth mentioning the 
small fishing place of Tyre in Acts. Again, maybe he was a keen
fisherman and wanted to visit the shores of Tyre? :-)

Cheers,
Kent

[snip]
(the 3DO is not a 68000!!!)
[snip]

The 3DO box is based on an ARM RISC processor, one or two custom graphics
chips, a DSP, a double-speed CDROM, and 2MB of RAM/VRAM. (I'm a little
fuzzy on the breakdown of the graphics chips and RAM/VRAM capacity).

It was demonstrated at a recent gathering at the Electronic Cafe in
Santa Monica, CA. From 3DO, RJ Mical (of Amiga/Lynx fame) and Hal
Josephson (sp?) were there to talk about the machine and their plan. We
got to see the unit displaying full-screen movies using the CompactVideo codec
(which was nice, very little blockiness showing clips from Jaws and Backdraft)
... and a very high frame rate to boot (like 30fps).

Note however that the 3DO's screen resolution is 320x240.

CompactVideo is pretty amazing... I also wanted to point out that QuickTime
does indeed slow down when one dynamically resizes material as was stated
above... I'm sure if the material had been compressed at the large size
then it would play back fine (I have a Q950 and do this quite a bit). The
price of generality... personally I don't use the dynamic sizing of movies
often, if ever. But playing back stuff at its original size is plenty quick
on the latest 040 machines.

I'm not sure how a Centris/20MHz 040 stacks up against the 25 MHz ARM in
the 3DO box. Obviously the ARM is faster, but how much?

}>}>}(a) out of context;
}>}>Must have missed when you said this about these other "promises of god" that we keep
}>}>getting subjected to.  Could you please explain why I am wrong and they are OK?
}>}>Or an acknowledgement of public hypocrisy. Both or neither.
}>}
}>}So, according to you, Jim, the only way to criticize one person for
}>}taking a quote out of context, without being a hypocrite, is to post a
}>}response to *every* person on t.r.m who takes a quote out of context?
}>
}>Did I either ask or assert that?  Or is this your misaimed telepathy at work again?
}
}(1)  Stephen said you took a quote out of context
}(2)  You noted that Stephen had not replied to some other t.r.m article
}     (call it A) that took a quote out of context
}(3)  But the lack of evidence for X does not constitute evidence for the
}     lack of X  (a common creationist error)
}(4)  So the fact that Stephen did not reply to A does not justify the
}     conclusion that Stephen condoned taking quotes out of context in A

Excellent.  Now under what conditions could such a conclusion be made, other
than a direct assertion by his part.  For instance, am I to assume that
you have no position on eating shit merely because you have not said
your position, or might a conclusion be made by observing that you do not.

}(7)  I assumed you were being logical, and that the sentence that begins
}     "Could you please explain ..." was not a nonsequitur, but was intended
}     to follow from the sentence that preceded it.

}Is that better Jim?   It's called an argument.  If you disagree with it,
}explain why the argument is not sound.  (I admit that my assumption in (7)
}may have been a bit hasty.)  If you agree with it, just say "yup."

#     Are there any places in the Bible where the commandment "Thou 
#     shalt not kill" is specifically applied?  That is, where someone 
#     refrained from killing because he remembered the commandment.

  No, for the excellent reason that there IS no such commandment.

  Aside from that, please note that the Abrahamic literary tradition
  is strong on narrative, light on dialog, and virtually nonexistent
  w/r/t introspection.

While religion certainly has some benefits in a combat situation, what are
the benefits of cocaine?

	Who does the categorizing?

---  

  " I'd Cheat on Hillary Too."

   Nick Haines sez;
   >(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
   >maturity, I strongly doubt that this [having lots of bugs] is the case).

   Level 5?  Out of how many?  What are the different levels?  I've never
   heard of this rating system.  Anyone care to clue me in?

This is a rating system used by ARPA and other organisations to
measure the maturity of a `software process' i.e. the entire process
by which software gets designed, written, tested, delivered, supported
etc.

See `Managing the Software Process', by Watts S. Humphrey, Addison
Wesley 1989. An excellent software engineering text. The 5 levels of
software process maturity are:

1. Initial
2. Repeatable
3. Defined
4. Managed
5. Optimizing

The levels are approximately characterized as follows:

1. no statistically software process control. Have no statistical
   basis for estimating how large software will be, how long it will
   take to produce, how expensive it will be, or how reliable it will
   be.  Most software production is at this level.

2. stable process with statistical controls, rigorous project
   management; having done something once, can do it again. Projects
   are planned in detail, and there is software configuration
   management and quality assurance.

3. The process is defined and understood, implementation is
   consistent. This includes things like software inspection, a
   rigorous software testing framework, more configuration management,
   and typically a `software engineering process group' within the
   project.

4. Statistical information on the software is systematically gathered
   and analysed, and the process is controlled on the basis of this
   information. Software quality is measured and has goals.

5. Defects are prevented, the process is automated, software contracts
   are effective and certified.

Archive-name: space/acronyms
Edition: 8

Acronym List for sci.astro, sci.space, and sci.space.shuttle:
Edition 8, 1992 Dec 7
Last posted: 1992 Aug 27

This list is offered as a reference for translating commonly appearing
acronyms in the space-related newsgroups.  If I forgot or botched your
favorite acronym, please let me know!  Also, if there's an acronym *not*
on this list that confuses you, drop me a line, and if I can figure
it out, I'll add it to the list.

Note that this is intended to be a reference for *frequently seen*
acronyms, and is most emphatically *not* encyclopedic.  If I incorporated
every acronym I ever saw, I'd soon run out of disk space!  :-)

The list will be posted at regular intervals, every 30 days.  All
comments regarding it are welcome; I'm reachable as bradfrd2@ncar.ucar.edu.

Note that this just tells what the acronyms stand for -- you're on your
own for figuring out what they *mean*!  Note also that the total number of
acronyms in use far exceeds what I can list; special-purpose acronyms that
are essentially always explained as they're introduced are omitted.
Further, some acronyms stand for more than one thing; as of Edition 3 of
the list, these acronyms appear on multiple lines, unless they're simply
different ways of referring to the same thing.

Thanks to everybody who's sent suggestions since the first version of
the list, and especially to Garrett A. Wollman (wollman@griffin.uvm.edu),
who is maintaining an independent list, somewhat more verbose in
character than mine, and to Daniel Fischer (dfi@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de),
who is maintaining a truly HUGE list (535 at last count) of acronyms and
terms, mostly in German (which I read, fortunately).

Special thanks this time to Ken Hollis at NASA, who sent me a copy of NASA
Reference Publication 1059 Revised: _Space Transportation System and
Associated Payloads: Glossary, Acronyms, and Abbreviations_, a truly
mammoth tome -- almost 300 pages of TLAs.

Special Bonus!  At the end of this posting, you will find a perl program
written by none other than Larry Wall, whose purpose is to scramble the
acronym list in an entertaining fashion.  Thanks, Larry!

A&A: Astronomy and Astrophysics
AAO: Anglo-Australian Observatory
AAS: American Astronomical Society
AAS: American Astronautical Society
AAVSO: American Association of Variable Star Observers
ACE: Advanced Composition Explorer
ACRV: Assured Crew Return Vehicle (or) Astronaut Crew Rescue Vehicle
ADFRF: Ames-Dryden Flight Research Facility (was DFRF) (NASA)
AGN: Active Galactic Nucleus
AGU: American Geophysical Union
AIAA: American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
AIPS: Astronomical Image Processing System
AJ: Astronomical Journal
ALEXIS: Array of Low Energy X-ray Imaging Sensors
ALPO: Association of Lunar and Planetary Observers
ALS: Advanced Launch System
ANSI: American National Standards Institute
AOA: Abort Once Around (Shuttle abort plan)
AOCS: Attitude and Orbit Control System
Ap.J: Astrophysical Journal
APM: Attached Pressurized Module (a.k.a. Columbus)
APU: Auxiliary Power Unit
ARC: Ames Research Center (NASA)
ARTEMIS: Advanced Relay TEchnology MISsion
ASA: Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
ASI: Agenzia Spaziale Italiano
ASRM: Advanced Solid Rocket Motor
ATDRS: Advanced Tracking and Data Relay Satellite
ATLAS: Atmospheric Laboratory for Applications and Science
ATM: Amateur Telescope Maker
ATO: Abort To Orbit (Shuttle abort plan)
AU: Astronomical Unit
AURA: Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy
AW&ST: Aviation Week and Space Technology (a.k.a. AvLeak)
AXAF: Advanced X-ray Astrophysics Facility
BATSE: Burst And Transient Source Experiment (on CGRO)
BBXRT: Broad-Band X-Ray Telescope (ASTRO package)
BEM: Bug-Eyed Monster
BH: Black Hole
BIMA: Berkeley Illinois Maryland Array
BNSC: British National Space Centre
BTW: By The Way
C&T: Communications & Tracking
CCAFS: Cape Canaveral Air Force Station
CCD: Charge-Coupled Device
CCDS: Centers for the Commercial Development of Space
CD-ROM: Compact Disk Read-Only Memory
CFA: Center For Astrophysics
CFC: ChloroFluoroCarbon
CFF: Columbus Free Flyer
CFHT: Canada-France-Hawaii Telescope
CGRO: (Arthur Holley) Compton Gamma Ray Observatory (was GRO)
CHARA: Center for High Angular Resolution Astronomy
CIRRIS: Cryogenic InfraRed Radiance Instrument for Shuttle
CIT: Circumstellar Imaging Telescope
CM: Command Module (Apollo spacecraft)
CMCC: Central Mission Control Centre (ESA)
CNES: Centre National d'Etude Spatiales
CNO: Carbon-Nitrogen-Oxygen
CNSR: Comet Nucleus Sample Return
COBE: COsmic Background Explorer
COMPTEL: COMPton TELescope (on CGRO)
COSTAR: Corrective Optics Space Telescope Axial Replacement
CRAF: Comet Rendezvous / Asteroid Flyby
CRRES: Combined Release / Radiation Effects Satellite
CSM: Command and Service Module (Apollo spacecraft)
CSTC: Consolidated Satellite Test Center (USAF)
CTIO: Cerro Tololo Interamerican Observatory
DCX: Delta Clipper eXperimental
DDCU: DC-to-DC Converter Unit
DFRF: Dryden Flight Research Facility (now ADFRF)
DMSP: Defense Meteorological Satellite Program
DOD: Department Of Defense (sometimes DoD)
DOE: Department Of Energy
DOT: Department Of Transportation
DSCS: Defense Satellite Communications System
DSN: Deep Space Network
DSP: Defense Support Program (USAF/NRO)
EAFB: Edwards Air Force Base
ECS: Environmental Control System
EDO: Extended Duration Orbiter
EGRET: Energetic Gamma Ray Experiment Telescope (on CGRO)
EJASA: Electronic Journal of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
ELV: Expendable Launch Vehicle
EMU: Extravehicular Mobility Unit
EOS: Earth Observing System
ERS: Earth Resources Satellite (as in ERS-1)
ESA: European Space Agency
ESO: European Southern Observatory
ET: (Shuttle) External Tank
ETLA: Extended Three Letter Acronym
ETR: Eastern Test Range
EUV: Extreme UltraViolet
EUVE: Extreme UltraViolet Explorer
EVA: ExtraVehicular Activity
FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions
FAST: Fast Auroral SnapshoT explorer
FFT: Fast Fourier Transform
FGS: Fine Guidance Sensors (on HST)
FHST: Fixed Head Star Trackers (on HST)
FIR: Far InfraRed
FITS: Flexible Image Transport System
FOC: Faint Object Camera (on HST)
FOS: Faint Object Spectrograph (on HST)
FRR: Flight-Readiness Review
FTP: File Transfer Protocol
FTS: Flight Telerobotic Servicer
FUSE: Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic Explorer
FWHM: Full Width at Half Maximum
FYI: For Your Information
GAS: Get-Away Special
GBT: Green Bank Telescope
GCVS: General Catalog of Variable Stars
GEM: Giotto Extended Mission
GEO: Geosynchronous Earth Orbit
GDS: Great Dark Spot
GHRS: Goddard High Resolution Spectrograph (on HST)
GIF: Graphics Interchange Format
GLOMR: Global Low-Orbiting Message Relay
GMC: Giant Molecular Cloud
GMRT: Giant Meter-wave Radio Telescope
GMT: Greenwich Mean Time (also called UT)
GOES: Geostationary Orbiting Environmental Satellite
GOX: Gaseous OXygen
GPC: General Purpose Computer
GPS: Global Positioning System
GRO: Gamma Ray Observatory (now CGRO)
GRS: Gamma Ray Spectrometer (on Mars Observer)
GRS: Great Red Spot
GSC: Guide Star Catalog (for HST)
GSFC: Goddard Space Flight Center (NASA)
GTO: Geostationary Transfer Orbit
HAO: High Altitude Observatory
HD: Henry Draper catalog entry
HEAO: High Energy Astronomical Observatory
HeRA: Hermes Robotic Arm
HF: High Frequency
HGA: High Gain Antenna
HLC: Heavy Lift Capability
HLV: Heavy Lift Vehicle
HMC: Halley Multicolor Camera (on Giotto)
HR: Hertzsprung-Russell (diagram)
HRI: High Resolution Imager (on ROSAT)
HSP: High Speed Photometer (on HST)
HST: Hubble Space Telescope
HUT: Hopkins Ultraviolet Telescope (ASTRO package)
HV: High Voltage
IAPPP: International Amateur/Professional Photoelectric Photometry
IAU: International Astronomical Union
IAUC: IAU Circular
ICE: International Cometary Explorer
IDA: International Dark-sky Association
IDL: Interactive Data Language
IGM: InterGalactic Medium
IGY: International Geophysical Year
IMHO: In My Humble Opinion
IOTA: Infrared-Optical Telescope Array
IOTA: International Occultation Timing Association
IPS: Inertial Pointing System
IR: InfraRed
IRAF: Image Reduction and Analysis Facility
IRAS: InfraRed Astronomical Satellite
ISAS: Institute of Space and Astronautical Science (Japan)
ISM: InterStellar Medium
ISO: Infrared Space Observatory
ISO: International Standards Organization
ISPM: International Solar Polar Mission (now Ulysses)
ISY: International Space Year
IUE: International Ultraviolet Explorer
IUS: Inertial Upper Stage
JEM: Japanese Experiment Module (for SSF)
JGR: Journal of Geophysical Research
JILA: Joint Institute for Laboratory Astrophysics
JPL: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
JSC: Johnson Space Center (NASA)
KAO: Kuiper Airborne Observatory
KPNO: Kitt Peak National Observatory
KSC: Kennedy Space Center (NASA)
KTB: Cretaceous-Tertiary Boundary (from German)
LANL: Los Alamos National Laboratory
LaRC: Langley Research Center (NASA)
LDEF: Long Duration Exposure Facility
LEM: Lunar Excursion Module (a.k.a. LM) (Apollo spacecraft)
LEO: Low Earth Orbit
LeRC: Lewis Research Center (NASA)
LEST: Large Earth-based Solar Telescope
LFSA: List of Frequently Seen Acronyms (!)
LGA: Low Gain Antenna
LGM: Little Green Men
LH: Liquid Hydrogen (also LH2 or LHX)
LLNL: Lawrence-Livermore National Laboratory
LM: Lunar Module (a.k.a. LEM) (Apollo spacecraft)
LMC: Large Magellanic Cloud
LN2: Liquid N2 (Nitrogen)
LOX: Liquid OXygen
LRB: Liquid Rocket Booster
LSR: Local Standard of Rest
LTP: Lunar Transient Phenomenon
MB: Manned Base
MCC: Mission Control Center
MECO: Main Engine CutOff
MMH: MonoMethyl Hydrazine
MMT: Multiple Mirror Telescope
MMU: Manned Maneuvering Unit
MNRAS: Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society
MOC: Mars Observer Camera (on Mars Observer)
MOL: Manned Orbiting Laboratory
MOLA: Mars Observer Laser Altimeter (on Mars Observer)
MOMV: Manned Orbital Maneuvering Vehicle
MOTV: Manned Orbital Transfer Vehicle
MPC: Minor Planets Circular
MRSR: Mars Rover and Sample Return
MRSRM: Mars Rover and Sample Return Mission
MSFC: (George C.) Marshall Space Flight Center (NASA)
MTC: Man Tended Capability
NACA: National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics (became NASA)
NASA: National Aeronautics and Space Administration
NASDA: NAtional Space Development Agency (Japan)
NASM: National Air and Space Museum
NASP: National AeroSpace Plane
NBS: National Bureau of Standards (now NIST)
NDV: NASP Derived Vehicle
NERVA: Nuclear Engine for Rocket Vehicle Application
NGC: New General Catalog
NICMOS: Near Infrared Camera / Multi Object Spectrometer (HST upgrade)
NIMS: Near-Infrared Mapping Spectrometer (on Galileo)
NIR: Near InfraRed
NIST: National Institute for Standards and Technology (was NBS)
NLDP: National Launch Development Program
NOAA: National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
NOAO: National Optical Astronomy Observatories
NRAO: National Radio Astronomy Observatory
NRO: National Reconnaissance Office
NS: Neutron Star
NSA: National Security Agency
NSF: National Science Foundation
NSO: National Solar Observatory
NSSDC: National Space Science Data Center
NTR: Nuclear Thermal Rocket(ry)
NTT: New Technology Telescope
OAO: Orbiting Astronomical Observatory
OCST: Office of Commercial Space Transportation
OMB: Office of Management and Budget
OMS: Orbital Maneuvering System
OPF: Orbiter Processing Facility
ORFEUS: Orbiting and Retrievable Far and Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer
OSC: Orbital Sciences Corporation
OSCAR: Orbiting Satellite Carrying Amateur Radio
OSSA: Office of Space Science and Applications
OSSE: Oriented Scintillation Spectrometer Experiment (on CGRO)
OTA: Optical Telescope Assembly (on HST)
OTHB: Over The Horizon Backscatter
OTV: Orbital Transfer Vehicle
OV: Orbital Vehicle
PAM: Payload Assist Module
PAM-D: Payload Assist Module, Delta-class
PI: Principal Investigator
PLSS: Portable Life Support System
PM: Pressurized Module
PMC: Permanently Manned Capability
PMIRR: Pressure Modulated InfraRed Radiometer (on Mars Observer)
PMT: PhotoMultiplier Tube
PSF: Point Spread Function
PSR: PulSaR
PV: Photovoltaic
PVO: Pioneer Venus Orbiter
QSO: Quasi-Stellar Object
RCI: Rodent Cage Interface (for SLS mission)
RCS: Reaction Control System
REM: Rat Enclosure Module (for SLS mission)
RF: Radio Frequency
RFI: Radio Frequency Interference
RIACS: Research Institute for Advanced Computer Science
RMS: Remote Manipulator System
RNGC: Revised New General Catalog
ROSAT: ROentgen SATellite
ROUS: Rodents Of Unusual Size (I don't believe they exist)
RSN: Real Soon Now
RTG: Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator
RTLS: Return To Launch Site (Shuttle abort plan)
SAA: South Atlantic Anomaly
SAGA: Solar Array Gain Augmentation (for HST)
SAMPEX: Solar Anomalous and Magnetospheric Particle EXplorer
SAO: Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory
SAR: Search And Rescue
SAR: Synthetic Aperture Radar
SARA: Satellite pour Astronomie Radio Amateur
SAREX: Search and Rescue Exercise
SAREX: Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment
SAS: Space Activity Suit
SAS: Space Adaptation Syndrome
SAT: Synthetic Aperture Telescope
S/C: SpaceCraft
SCA: Shuttle Carrier Aircraft
SCT: Schmidt-Cassegrain Telescope
SDI: Strategic Defense Initiative
SDIO: Strategic Defense Initiative Organization
SEI: Space Exploration Initiative
SEST: Swedish ESO Submillimeter Telescope
SETI: Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence
SID: Sudden Ionospheric Disturbance
SIR: Shuttle Imaging Radar
SIRTF: Space (formerly Shuttle) InfraRed Telescope Facility
SL: SpaceLab
SLAR: Side-Looking Airborne Radar
SLC: Space Launch Complex
SLS: Space(lab) Life Sciences
SMC: Small Magellanic Cloud
SME: Solar Mesosphere Explorer
SMEX: SMall EXplorers
SMM: Solar Maximum Mission
SN: SuperNova (e.g., SN1987A)
SNR: Signal to Noise Ratio
SNR: SuperNova Remnant
SNU: Solar Neutrino Units
SOFIA: Stratospheric Observatory For Infrared Astronomy
SOHO: SOlar Heliospheric Observatory
SPAN: Space Physics and Analysis Network
SPDM: Special Purpose Dextrous Manipulator
SPOT: Systeme Probatoire pour l'Observation de la Terre
SPS: Solar Power Satellite
SRB: Solid Rocket Booster
SRM: Solid Rocket Motor
SSF: Space Station Fred (er, Freedom)
SSI: Solid-State Imager (on Galileo)
SSI: Space Studies Institut
SSME: Space Shuttle Main Engine
SSPF: Space Station Processing Facility
SSRMS: Space Station Remote Manipulator System
SST: Spectroscopic Survey Telescope
SST: SuperSonic Transport
SSTO: Single Stage To Orbit
STIS: Space Telescope Imaging Spectrometer (to replace FOC and GHRS)
STS: Shuttle Transport System (or) Space Transportation System
STScI: Space Telescope Science Institute
SWAS: Submillimeter Wave Astronomy Satellite
SWF: ShortWave Fading
TAL: Transatlantic Abort Landing (Shuttle abort plan)
TAU: Thousand Astronomical Unit (mission)
TCS: Thermal Control System
TDRS: Tracking and Data Relay Satellite
TDRSS: Tracking and Data Relay Satellite System
TES: Thermal Emission Spectrometer (on Mars Observer)
TIROS: Television InfraRed Observation Satellite
TLA: Three Letter Acronym
TOMS: Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer
TPS: Thermal Protection System
TSS: Tethered Satellite System
UARS: Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite
UBM: Unpressurized Berthing Mechanism
UDMH: Unsymmetrical DiMethyl Hydrazine
UFO: Unidentified Flying Object
UGC: Uppsala General Catalog
UHF: Ultra High Frequency
UIT: Ultraviolet Imaging Telescope (Astro package)
UKST: United Kingdom Schmidt Telescope
USAF: United States Air Force
USMP: United States Microgravity Payload
UT: Universal Time (a.k.a. GMT, UTC, or Zulu Time)
UTC: Coordinated Universal Time (a.k.a. UT)
UV: UltraViolet
UVS: UltraViolet Spectrometer
VAB: Vehicle Assembly Building (formerly Vertical Assembly Building)
VAFB: Vandenberg Air Force Base
VEEGA: Venus-Earth-Earth Gravity Assist (Galileo flight path)
VHF: Very High Frequency
VLA: Very Large Array
VLBA: Very Long Baseline Array
VLBI: Very Long Baseline Interferometry
VLF: Very Low Frequency
VLT: Very Large Telescope
VMS: Vertical Motion Simulator
VOIR: Venus Orbiting Imaging Radar (superseded by VRM)
VPF: Vertical Processing Facility
VRM: Venus Radar Mapper (now called Magellan)
WD: White Dwarf
WFPC: Wide Field / Planetary Camera (on HST)
WFPCII: Replacement for WFPC
WIYN: Wisconsin / Indiana / Yale / NOAO telescope
WSMR: White Sands Missile Range
WTR: Western Test Range
WUPPE: Wisconsin Ultraviolet PhotoPolarimter Experiment (Astro package)
XMM: X-ray Multi Mirror
XUV: eXtreme UltraViolet
YSO: Young Stellar Object

#!/usr/bin/perl
# 'alt', An Acronym Scrambling Program, by Larry Wall

$THRESHOLD = 2;

srand;
while (<>) {
    next unless /^([A-Z]\S+): */;
    $key = $1;
    $acro{$key} = $';
    @words = split(/\W+/,$');
    unshift(@words,$key);
    $off = 0;
    foreach $word (@words) {
        next unless $word =~ /^[A-Z]/;
        *w = $&;
        vec($w{$word}, $off++ % 6, 1) = 1;
    }
}

foreach $letter (A .. Z) {
    *w = $letter;
    @w = keys %w;
    if (@w < $THRESHOLD) {
        @d = `egrep '^$letter' /usr/dict/words`;
        chop @d;
        push(@w, @d);
    }
}

foreach $key (sort keys %acro) {
    $off = 0;
    $acro = $acro{$key};
    $acro =~ s/((([A-Z])[A-Z]*)[a-z]*)/ &pick($3, $2, $1, ++$off) || $& /eg;
    print "$key: $acro";
}

sub pick {
    local($letter, $prefix, $oldword, $off) = @_;
    $i = 0;
    if (length($prefix) > 1 && index($key,$prefix) < 0) {
        if ($prefix eq $oldword) {
            $prefix = '';
        }
        else {
            $prefix = $letter;
        }
    }
    if (length($prefix) > 1) {
        local(*w) = substr($prefix,0,1);
        do {
            $word = $w[rand @w];
        } until $word ne $oldword && $word =~ /^$prefix/i || ++$i > 30;
        $word =~ s/^$prefix/$prefix/i;
        $word;
    }
    elsif (length($prefix) == 1) {
        local(*w) = $prefix;
        do {
        } until $word ne $oldword && vec($w{$word}, $off, 1) || ++$i > 10;
        $word = "\u\L$word" if $word =~ tr/a-z/A-Z/;
        $word;
    }
    else {
        local(*w) = substr($oldword,0,1);
        do {
        } until $word ne $oldword && $word =~ tr/a-z/A-Z/ == 0 || ++$i > 30;
        $word;
    }
}

Why should I keep my fingers crossed? I doubt it would do anything. :)

OpenGL is a graphics programming library and as such is a great, portable
interface for the development of interactive 3D graphics applications. It
is not, however, an indicator of performance, as that will vary strongly
from machine to machine and vendor to vendor.  SGI is committed to high
performance interactive graphics systems and software tools, so OpenGL
means that you can port easily from SGI to other platforms, there is no
guarantee that your performance would be comparable.

If your sales representative truly mislead you, then you should have a
valid grievance against us which you should carry up to your local SGI
sales management team. Feel free to contact the local branch manager...we
understand that repeat sales come from satisfied customers, so give it a
shot.

As one of the previous posts stated, the Personal IRIS was introduced in
1988 and grew to include the 4D/20, 4D/25, 4D/30 and 4D/35 as clock rates
sped up over time. As a rule of thumb, SGI platforms live for about 4-5
years. This was true of the motorola-based 3000 series ('85-'89), the PI
('88-'93), the Professional Series (the early 4D's - '86-'90), the Power
Series parallel systems ('88-'93). Individual CPU subsystems running at a
particular clock rate usually live for about 2 years. New graphics
architectures at the high end (GT, VGX, RealityEngine) are released every
18 months to 2 years.

These are the facts of life.  If we look at these machines, they become
almost archaic after four years, and we have to come out with a new
platform (like Indigo, Onyx, Challenge) which has higher bus bandwidths,
faster CPUs, faster graphics and I/O, and larger disk capacities. If we
don't, we become uncompetitive.

From the user perspective, you have to buy a machine that meets your
current needs and makes economic sense today.  You can't wait to buy, but
if you need a guaranteed upgrade path for the machine, ask the Sales Rep
for one in writing. If it's feasible, they should be able to do that. Some
of our upgrade paths have specific programs associated with them, such as
the Performance Protection Program for older R3000-based Power Series
multiprocessing systems which allowed purchasers of those systems to obtain
a guaranteed upgrade price for moving to the new Onyx or Challenge
R4400-based 64-bit multiprocessor systems.

If that's happening, it's becausing of misunderstandings or
mis-communication, not because SGI is directly attempting to annoy our
customer base.

Most SGI customers are onesy-twosey types, but regardless, we rarely give a
great deal of notice when we are about to introduce a new system because
again, like a previous post stated, if we pre-announced and the schedule
slipped, we would mess up our potential customers schedules (when they were
counting on the availability of the new systems on a particular date) and
would also look awfully bad to both our investors and the financial
analysts who watch us most carefully to see if we are meeting our
commitments.

Five years is an awfully long time in computer years. New processor
technologies are arriving every 1-2 years, making a 5 year old computer at
least 2 and probably 3 generations behind the times. The competitive nature
of the market is demanding that rate of development, so if your timing is
really 5 years between purchases, you have to accept the limited viability
of whatever architecture you buy into from any vendor.

There are some realities about the computer biz that we all have to live
with, but keeping customers happy is the most important, so don't give up,
we know it.

Josh   |:-)

-- 

If you are really interested in these orbits and how they are obtained
you should try and find the following paper:

     Hiroshi Yamakawa, Jun'ichiro Kawaguchi, Nobuaki Ishii, 
     and Hiroki Matsuo, "A Numerical Study of Gravitational Capture
     Orbit in the Earth-Moon System," AAS-92-186, AAS/AIAA Spaceflight
     Mechanics Meeting, Colorado Springs, Colorado, 1992.

The references included in this paper are quite interesting also and 
include several that are specific to the HITEN mission itself. 

Dear Rob,

Sometimes I do come across condesending, and I am sorry I come across that
way at times.  Thank you for the reproach, I really do appreciate it.  I'll
try to get better.

Rob, at the same time, I have also learned that some people respond to the gentle
approach while others respond only at a harsh rebuke.  Brian K., so far,
only responds to the latter.  And I am glad he responds at all.   In both
cases of approach,  my intention is to be loving.  I am making no excuse
for myself if I am coming across condesending.  I apologize for that.

Rob, sometimes Brian K. comes across as honest. I know this.  But Brian K. 
vasillates back and forth.  One post looks honest; the next is
an excuse.  Now he wants me to explain the universe in 50 words or less.  
I think Brian Kendig is really trying but he is too comfortable with
his set of excuses.  

I just want Brian K. to be honest with himself.  If he really wants
to know, he will ask questions and stop asserting irrelevant excuses
which have nothing to do with my God.   I wish Brian would read the
Bible for himself and come to his own decisions without being
sidetracked with the temptation to mock God.

From my perspective Rob, when I look at Brian Kendig, I see a man
standing out in the middle of a highway.  Off into the distance I 
see a Mack truck heading right for him, but Brian K. is faced away
from the oncoming truck.  He doesn't see it.   Here's is how I see
the dialog:

Me:  "Brian K, please step aside before you get run over." 

BK:  "There is no truck."

Me:  "Turn around at look."

BK:  "No."

Me:  "Look!  You will be healthier if you do take a look at
     the oncoming truck."

BK:  "No. Explain to me why trucks exist."

Me:  "Turn around or you will run over."

BK:  "No. I won't because I like hiking and tomorrow is Tuesday."

Me:  "You blind fool!  Why do you choose ignorance? You have nothing
      to lose if you look.  But if do not look, you will certainly lose your life."
      I do not want to see you squashed all over the road.

BK:  "It is my life to lose.  I rather not look.
      Besides, a truck running over me will not harm me."
      And by the way, I really have an open mind."

So is my motivation to belittle Brian, or to love Brian the best I know how?   

I do not wish to single Brian Kendig out.  Because millions if not
billions of people fall into the same category.  Perhaps all people
fall have fallen into this category at one time in their lives.  I have.
I can now see the truck behind Brian.

My hope is that Brian will look and will see the ramifications of the
truck coming towards him.  My hope is that Brian will want to step out
of the way.  My fear, though,  is that Brian will instead choose to glue himself
to the middle of the highway, where he will certainly get run over.  But if
he so chooses, he so chooses, and there is nothing I can do beyond that
to change his mind.   For it is his choice.   But at this very moment,
Brian hasn't gotten even that far.  He is still at the point where he
does not want to look.  Sure he moves his eyeball to appease me, but his
head will not turn around to see the entire picture.  So far he is
satisfied with his glimpse of the mountains off in the distance. 

#I use xwd/xpr (from the X11R5 dist.) and various programs of the
#ppm-tools to print hardcopies of colored X windows. My problem is,

I don't like xpr. It gives (at least, the X11R4 version does) louzy
output: the hardcopy looks very grainy to me.
Instead, I use pnmtops. This takes full advantage PostScript, and
lets the printer do the dirty job of dithering a (graylevel)
image to black and white dots.

So: if you have a PostScript printer, try:
	xwdtopnm <xwdfile> |	# convert to PPM
	[ppmtopgm |]		# .. to graylevel for smaller file to print
	pnmtops -noturn |	# .. to PostScript
	lpr			# print

pnmtops Has several neat options, but use them with care:
If you want your image to be 4" wide, use:
	pnmtops -noturn -scale 100 -width 4
-noturn Prevents the image from being rotated (if it is wider than it
	is high)
-width 4 Specifies the PAPER width (not the image width - see below)
-scale 100 Is used because if the image is small, it may fit within a
	width less than 4", and will thus be printed smaller than 4" wide.
	If you first scale it up a lot, it will certainly not fit in 4", and
	will be scaled down by pnmtops automatically to fit the specified
	paper width. 
	In short: pnmtops will scale an image down to fit the paper size,
	but it will not blow it up automatically.

Marcel.

Hi,

  I'm looking for an algorithm that would generate a good cross-section of
RGB colours given a limited colour map size. 

The problem: I'm writing an application for the PC that may have at most 256
colors. I want to use one colormap (palette) for the application but I'd like
it to contain an even spread of colours of the visible spectrum. I could use 
a 6x6x6 RGB cube but the problem is that a lot of those colours are almost
identical to the human eye. 

}For those missing the context of this thrilling discussion between
}Jim and I, Jim wrote the following to me in e-mail after I pointed out

Hate to shatter your self image of perfection that  you appear to hold, but
your language is wrong: Jim and me.

}I pointed out that I did, in fact, agree that both Robert Weiss and
}Jim Meritt took quotes out of context.  Hence, I find it difficult to
}understand why Jim thinks I am a hypocrite.  Needless to say, I don't
}have time to reply to *every* article on t.r.m. that takes a quote
}out of context.  

Of course not - just the ones you disagree with.  Q.E.D.

}
}Jim replied by saying 
}>Did I either ask or assert that?
}
}But today we find four articles from Jim, one of which has the subject

So?  As of then, and pointing out a specific instance.  Wrongo again.

}>Is it not the case that, in the eyes of the law, when someone is aware of
}>something and has the capability of taking action and does not, that individual
}>may be held responsible for that action?
}
}Which is, of course, a complete red herring.  Taking quotes out of
}context isn't a crime.  I don't have time to read every article on
}t.r.m., and I'm certainly under no obligation to reply to them all.

So?  Check the newsgroups?

}Does "silence is concurrence" imply that Jim thinks that because I
}didn't respond to Weiss' articles I must condone Weiss' taking quotes
}out of context?  Jim doesn't want to give a direct answer to this
}question; read what he has written and decide for yourself.

Telepathy again?  You claim to know what I "want".

}But back to the context of my conversation with Jim.  Jim's next 
}gambit was to claim that he was using inductive logic when he
}concluded that I was being a hypocrite.  I challenged him to provide
}the details of that logic that led him to an incorrect conclusion.

No.  YOu asked specifically what was wrong with yours.

}Today we find another obscure article (posting it twice didn't help

Maybe to the ignorant.  I accept your classification.

}More red herrings.  Could Jim mean that he has read an uncountably large
}number of my articles?  

Do you know what "uncountably large" means?  It does not appear so.

}Could Jim mean that because I "axed" his articles,
}but not Weiss' articles, he wants to conclude inductively ...
}Well, I can't see where he is going with this.

I am not suprised.

}But I can help him with his induction.  I've written roughly 80

That does not appear to be the case.  The appearance of your "Argument"
is more like that Captain Kirk would have gotten from Mr. Spock - written
by a stagehand at Paramount.

}Think hard about this Jim.  See the pattern?  Think harder.  Run it
}through your induction engine and see what pops out.  

##I strongly suggest that you look up a book called THE BIBLE, THE QURAN, AND
##SCIENCE by Maurice Baucaille, a French surgeon.  It is not comprehensive,
##but, it is well researched.  I imagine your library has it or can get it
##for you through interlibrary loan.
##

  I shall try to get hold of it (when I have time to read of course :-)

##In short, Dr Baucaille began investigating the Bible because of pre-
##ceived scientific inaccuracies and inconsistencies.  He assumed that
##some of the problems may have been caused by poor translations in by-
##gone days.  So, he read what he could find in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic.
##What he found was that the problems didn't go away, they got worse.
##Then, he decided to see if other religions had the same problems.
##So, he picked up the Holy Qur'an (in French) and found similar prob-
##lems, but not as many.  SO, he applied the same logoic as he had
##with the Bible: he learned to read it in Arabic.  The problems he
##had found with the French version went away in Arabic.  He was unable
##to find a wealth of scientific statements in the Holy Qur'an, but,
##what he did find made sense with modern understanding.  So, he
##investigated the Traditions (the hadith) to see what they had to
##say about science.  they were filled with science problems; after
##all, they were contemporary narratives from a time which had, by
##pour standards, a primitive world view.  His conclusion was that,
##while he was impressed that what little the Holy Qur'an had to
##say about science was accurate, he was far more impressed that the
##Holy Qur'an did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in
##the Traditions.  How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
##what *not to include* in the Holy Qur'an (assuming he had authored
##it)?  
##

    So in short the writer (or writers) of Quran decided to stay away from
science.  (if you do not open your mouth, then you don't put you foot into
your mouth either). 

   But then if you say Quran does not talk much about science, then one can
not make claims (like Bobby does) that you have great science in Quran.

   Basically I want to say that *none* of the religious texts are supposed to
be scientific treatises. So I am just requesting the theists to stop making
such wild claims.

--- Vinayak
-------------------------------------------------------
                                           vinayak dutt
                                   e-mail: vdp@mayo.edu

             standard disclaimers apply

Hum, do you enjoy putting words in my mouth? 
Come to Nome and meet some of these miners.. I am not sure how things go down
south in the lower 48 (I used to visit, but), of course to believe the
media/news its going to heck (or just plain crazy). 
Well it seems that alot of Unionist types seem to think that having a job is a
right, and not a priviledge. Right to the same job as your forbearers, SEE:
Kennedy's and tel me what you see (and the families they have married into).
There is a reason why many historians and poli-sci types use unionist and
socialist in the same breath.
The miners that I know, are just your average hardworking people who pay there
taxes and earn a living.. But taxes are not the answer. But maybe we could move
this discussion to some more appropriate newsgroup..

I would like to know if anyone has had any luck using the upper 128 ASCII
characters on a Sun station.  I am trying to convert a fortran program to run
on a Sun.  When we write character buffers to the Sun which contain char(218)
or char(196) or char(197) etc.  We get characters on the screen but they are
not the characters in the standard ASCII tables.

Yes, sorry. I have got that wrong. My apology.
 
So? No fun, but I must have met the minority then.
And "given by god" refers to any action whereby a god
god causes or better effects something.
 
Rob, I am not intimate with Jewish theology, but I understand
that you are a Messianic Jew. Correct me if I am wrong, but
it appears that the views of Messianic Jews on metaphysics
is different to that of the majority of Jews. While Jewish
theology overall is quite distinct from the Christianic god
views, I have heard that it is possible for Jews to attribute
evil to their god, an no-no for Christians, the Bible is
still seen as effect of the interaction of some god with man.
 
The context was metaphysics, even when the process of adapting
the commandments is not transcendent, the justification of the
process lie in metaphysic specualtion. I wonder how you break
out of the shackles of having metaphysics in your system.
 
Is is in a book that commands to commit genocide among other
reprehensible deeds. The context is repulsive, and it is
foul play, IMO, to invoke some relatively enlightened passages
as an example for the content of the whole book.
 
(Big deletion)
 
No, not the interpretation of some laws, but the interpretation of
the bible. As in the example that Sodom and Gomorrha mean argue
with god. The whole idea that it is metaphorically and yet allows
you to argue with a god (whatever that means, that alone is a theo-
logic question) is proof of a theology used.
 
It is an important question in the light of what for instance the
passage witrh Sodom and Gomorrha means. Either there is some connection
between the text, the fact that it exists, and your interpretation of
it, or it is purely arbitrary.. Further, the question is why is has
one to carry the burden of Biblical texts when one could simply write
other books that convey the message better. You might answer that one
can't becuase  some peculiar Biblical information might be lost, but
that holds true of every other book, and the question remains why has
the Bible still a special place? Can't it be replaced somehow? Is it
ok to bargain the dangerous content of the Bible against some other
message that is included as well?
 
Sorry, but there are worse systems does not say anything about if
one could not have a better system.
 
If we read two stories in the Bible, one that god commands people
to kill children for being idolaters and another where god kills
children directly, what is more important to resolve, the message that
children are to be killed or if it has  to be done by god?
 
And the argument you have given is a fallacy, while it may not be important
in the context you have given to find out if god is corporeal or not, it
can be crucial in other questions. Religious believers resolve contradictions
with that they choose one of the possibilities given in an arbitrary way,
and have the advantage of being able to attribute their decision to some
god.

Unfortunately, things have been boding ill (is that a legitimate conjugation?)
for a while.  While the Office of Exploration had some great ideas, they never
got much money.  I've heard good things about Griffin, but it's hard to want
him back in a job where he couldn't do anything.

The group examining the Freedom-based space station redesign proposals is 
headed by Michael Griffin, "NASA's cheif engineer" in the words of Space News.
I believe this is him.

Ref: Encyclopedia of Religion, Mircea Eliade

MAGI: 

[Sneak Preview: Later still, eschatology and apocalyptics were a fertile meeting
 ground for Iranian and Judeo-Christian religions, as can be seen in the famous
 _Oracles of Hystaspes_, a work whose Iranian roots are undeniable and which
 most likely dates from the beginning of the Christian era, probably the
 second century CE (Widengren, 1968). The Zoroastrian doctrine of the Savior of
 the Future (Saoshyant) was the basis for the story of the coming of the Magi
 to Bethlehem in the _Gospel of Matthew_ (2:1-12).]

  The Old Persian word magu, rendered in Greek by magos, is of uncertain 
etymology. It may originally have meant "member of the tribe," as in the
Avestan compound mogu-tbish ("hostile to a member of the tribe"). This meaning
would have been further resticted, among the Medes, to "member of the priestly
tribe" and perhaps to "priest" (Benveniste, 1938; Boyce, 1982). The term is
probably of Median origin, given that Herodotus mentions the "Magoi" as one of
the six tribes of the Medes.
  For a variety of reasons we can consider the Magi to have been members of a
priestly tribe of Median origin in western Iran. Among the Persians, they were
responsible for liturgical functions, as well as for maintaining their
knowledge of the holy and the occult. Most likely, the supremacy of the Median
priesthood in western Iran became established during the time of the Median
monarchy that dominated the Persians from the end of the eighth century
through the first half of the sixth century BCE until the revolt of Cyrus the
Great (550 BCE). The Persians were indebted to the Medes for their political
and civil institutions as well. Even if hypotheses have been advanced
concerning the existence of Magi of Persian origin in the Achaemenid period
(Boyce, 1982), we must still maintain that they were of Median origin. This is
demonstrated by the eposide of the revolt of Gaumata the Magian, mentioned by
Darius I (522-486 BCE) in the inscription at Bisutun (Iran), as well as by
Greek sources. Indeed, Herodotus insists on the idea of the usurpatory power of
the Medes against the Persians through the conspiracy of the Magi.
  The fact that the Magi may have been members of a tribe that handed down the
sacerdotal arts in a hereditary fashion naturally did not exclude the
possibility that some of them undertook secular prefessions. This seems to be
attested by the Elamite tablets at Persepolis.
  There is a theses, put forth by Giuseppe Messina, that denies that the Magi
are members of an ethnic group by suggesting that they are simply members of
the priesthood - a priesthood of purely Zoroastrian origin. This thesis is
untenable; on the other hand, the hypothesis that their name is related to the
Avestan term magavan, derived from the Gathic maga (Vedic, magha, "gift"), is
not without foundation (Mole, 1963). The meaning of maga can probably be found,
in conformity with the Pahlavi tradition, within the context of the concept of
purity, or separation of the "mixture" of the two opposed principles of spirit
and matter. The maga, which has been erroneously interpreted as "chorus," from
the root mangh, which is said to mean "sing the magic song" (Nyberg, 1966) and
has been rendered simply by an expression like unio mystica, seems to be an
ecstatic condition that opens the mind to spiritual vision. In any case, though
there may be a relation between the Old Persian term magu and the Avestan terms
magavan and maga, we must maintain a clear distinction between the Magi and the
Avestan priesthood. The Avesta ignores the Median or Old Persian term, despite
a recent hypothesis proposed by H.W. Bailey; Old Persian inscriptions ignore
the Avestan term for "priest," athravan (Vedic, athravan), even if this is 
perhaps present in an Achaeminid setting in the Elamite tablets of Persepolis 
(Gershevitch, 1964).
  The term magu has been present in Zoroastrianism throughout its history; the
Pahlavi terms mogh-mard and mobad represent its continuation. The latter in
particular derives from an older form, magupati ("head of the Magi"). During
the Sasanid period (third to seventh centuries CE), which saw the formation of
a hierarchically organized church, the title mobadan mobad ("the high priest of
high priests") came to be used to designate the summit of the ecclesiastical
hierarchy.
  The Magi practiced consanguineous marriage, or khvaetvadatha (Av.; Pahl.,
khwedodah). They also performed a characteristic funeral rite: the exposure of
the corpse to animals and vultures to remove the flesh and thereby cleanse it.
The corpse was not supposed to decompose, lest it be contaminated by the demons
of putrefaction. This practice later became typical of the entire Zoroastrian
community and led to the rise of a complex funeral ritual in Iran and among the
Parsis in India. Stone towers, known as dakhmas, were built especially for this
rite. During the time of Herodotus the practice of exposure of the corpse was
in vogue only among the Magi; the Persians generally sprinkled the corpse with
wax, then buried it. The practice was widespread, however, among the peoples
of Central Asia.
  The Magi were the technicians of and experts on worship: it was impossible to
offer sacrifices without the presence of a Magus. During the performance of a
ritual sacrifice, the Magus sang of the theogony (the Magi were possibly the
custodians of a tradition of sacred poetry, but we know nothing about the
relationship of this tradition to the various parts of the Avesta) and was
called upon to interpret dreams and to divine the future. The Magi were also
known for the practice of killing harmful, or "Ahrimanical," animals (khrafstra)
such as snakes and ants. They dressed in the Median style, wearing pants,
tunics, and coats with sleeves. They wore a characteristic head covering of
felt (Gr. tiara) with strips on the sides that could be used to cover the nose
and mouth during rituals to avoid contaminating consecrated objects with their
breath (Boyce, 1982). The color of these caps, in conformity with a tradition
that is probably of Indo-European origin, according to Georges Dumezil, was
that of the priesthood: white.
  In all likelihood, during the Achaemenid period the Magi were not in
possession of a well-defined body of doctrine, and it is probable that they
gradually adopted Zoroastrianism; they were most likely a clergy consisting of
professional priests who were not tied to a rigid orthodoxy but were naturally
inclined to eclecticism and syncretism. Nonetheless, they must have been
jealous guardians of the patrimony of Zorastrian traditions. By virtue of this
they were the educators of the royal princes. The wisest of them was responsible
for teaching the prince the "magic of Zarathushtra, son of Horomazes" and thus
the "cult of the gods." Magi who excelled in other virtues were entrusted with
the education of the prince so that he would learn to be just, courageous, and
master of himself.
  During the Achaemenid period the Magi maintained a position of great
influence, although they were certainly subordinate to the emperor. Despite
several dramatic events such as the massacre they suffered after the death of
Gaumata the Magian - in which, according to Herodotus (who calls himself
Smerdis), the Persians killed a large number of Magi to avenge the usurpation -
the Magi nevertheless managed to maintain their influence at court in Media,
in Persia, and in the various regions of the empire where they were stationed
as a consequence of the Persian civilian and military administration.
  No priesthood of antiquity was more famous than that of the Magi. They were
renowned as followers of Zarathushtra (Zoroaster); as the teachers of some of
the greatest Greek thinkers (Pythagoras, Democritus, Plato); as the wise men
who arrived, guided by a star, at the manger of the newborn savior in
Bethlehem; and as the propagators of a cult of the sun in India. But they were
also known as the Chaldeans, the priesthood of Babylon, known for its occultism;
this was perhaps the reason that the term magos had a pejorative sense in Greek,
like "goes," "expert in the magic arts" (Bidez and Cumont, 1938). Indeed, the
Chaldeans were experts in all types of magical arts, especially astrology, and
had a reputation for wisdom as well as knowledge.
  To understand the reasons for such various and sometimes discordant views, it
is necessary to distinguish between the Magi of Iran proper and the so-called
western Magi, who were later hellenized. In the Achaemenid period both must
have been at least in part Zoroastrian, but the western Magi (those of the
Iranian diaspora in Asia Minor, Syria, Mesopotamia, and Armenia), who came in
contact with diverse religious traditions, must have, sooner or later and in
varying degrees, been influenced by syncretic concepts.
  The Greeks were familiar with both kinds of Magi and, depending on their
varying concerns, would emphasize one or the other aspect of them. Classical
historians and geographers, including Herodotus and Strabo, document their
customs, while the philosophers dwell above all on their doctrines: dualism,
belief in the hereafter, Magian cosmology and cosmogony, and their theology
and eschatology. Those sources most interested in the doctrines of the Magi
even speak of Zarathushtra as a Magus. In doing so they are repeating what the
Magi themselves said from the Median and Achaemenid periods, when they adopted
Zoroastrianism. At that time they embraced Zarathushtra as one of their own and
placed themselves under his venerable name.
  Zoroastrianism had already undergone several profound transformations in the
eastern community by the time of the Acheamenids and was already adapting those
elements of the archaic religion that refused to die. It has been said quite
often, in an attempt to characterize the precise role of the Magi in the
Zoroastrian tradition, that the Vendidad (from vi-daevo-data, "the law-abjuring
daivas"), part of the Avesta, should be attributed to them. (This collection of
texts from various periods is primarily concerned with purificatory rules and
practices.) Nonetheless, the hypothesis is hardly plausible, since the first
chapter of the Vendidad - a list of sixteen lands created by Ahura Mazda, the
supreme god of Zoroastrianism, but contaminated by an attack by Ahriman (Pahl.;
Gathic-Avestan, Angra Mainyu), the other supreme god and the ultimate source of
all evil and suffering - does not mention western Iran, Persia, or Media (the
land of Ragha mentioned in the text cannot be Median Raghiana). Furthermore, it
has been noted (Gershevitch, 1964) that if the authors had been Magi the
absence of any reference to western Iranian institutions, including their own
priesthood, would be very strange.
  The Magi were above all the means by which the Zoroastrian tradition and the
corpus of the Avesta have been transmitted to us, from the second half of the
first millennium BCE on. This has been their principal merit. We can attribute
directly to the Magi the new formulation that Iranian dualism assumed, known to
us especially from Greek sources and, in part, from the Pahlavi literature of
the ninth and tenth centuries CE. According to this formulation, the two poles
of the dualism are no longer, as in the Gathas, Spenta Mainyu ("beneficent
spirit") and Angra Mainyu ("hostile spirit") but Ahura Mazda himself and Angra
Mainyu (Gershevitch, 1964). [See Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu.] This trans-
formation was of immense consequence for the historical development of Zoro-
astrianism and was most likely determined by the contact of the Magi with the
Mesopotamian religious world. In this new dualism - which was that later known
to the Greeks (Aristotle, Eudemus of Rhodes, Theopompus, and others) - we can
see the affirmation of a new current of thought within Zoroastrianism, to which
we give the name Zurvanism. [See Zurvanism.]
  Thanks to their adherence to Zoroastrianism, the Magi played an enormously
important role in the transmission of Zarathushtra's treachings, as well as in
the definition of the new forms that these would assume historically. Their
natural propensity to eclecticism and syncretism also helped the diffusion of
Zoroastrian ideas in the communities of the Iranian diaspora. The Greeks began
to study their doctrines and to take an interest in them (Xanthus of Lydia,
Hermodorus, Aristotle, Theopompus, Hermippus, Dinon), even writing treatises
on the Persian religion, of which only the titles and a few fragments have
survived. In the Hellenistic period, the Magi were seen as a secular school of
wisdom, and writings on magic, astrology, and alchemy were lent the authority
of such prestigious names as Zarathushtra, Ostanes, and Hystaspes, forming an
abundant apocryphal literature. (Bidez and Cumont, 1938).
  Later still, eschatology and apocalyptics were a fertile meeting
ground for Iranian and Judeo-Christian religions, as can be seen in the famous
_Oracles of Hystaspes_, a work whose Iranian roots are undeniable and which
most likely dates from the beginning of the Christian era, probably the
second century CE (Widengren, 1968). The Zoroastrian doctrine of the Savior of
the Future (Saoshyant) was the basis for the story of the coming of the Magi
to Bethlehem in the _Gospel of Matthew_ (2:1-12). [See Saoshyant.]
  The Sasanid period saw the Magi once again play a determining role in the
religious history of Iran. Concerned to win back the western Magi (de Menasce,
1956), and eager to consolidate Zoroastrianism as the national religion of
Iran, the priests of Iranian sanctuaries in Media and Persia were able to
establish a true state church, strongly hierarchical and endowed with an
orthodoxy based on the formation of a canon of scriptures. The leading figures
in the development of a state religion and of Zoroastrian orthodoxy were Tosar
and Kerder, the persecutors of Mani in the third century.

I need as much information about Cosmos 2238 and its rocket fragment (1993-
018B) as possible. Both its purpose, launch date, location, in short,
EVERYTHING! Can you help?

-Tony Ryan, "Astronomy & Space", new International magazine, available from:
              Astronomy Ireland, P.O.Box 2888, Dublin 1, Ireland.
6 issues (one year sub.): UK 10.00 pounds, US$20 surface (add US$8 airmail).
ACCESS/VISA/MASTERCARD accepted (give number, expiration date, name&address).

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address listed below.  Please also excuse the duplication as this 
message has been crossposted.  Thanks!
 
      REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES 
                             VIA THE INTERNET
 
NASA is planning to expand the domain of users of its Earth and space science
data.  This effort will:
 
  o   Use the evolving infrastructure of the U.S. Global Change Research 
      Program including the Mission To Planet Earth (MTPE) and the Earth 
      Observing System Data and Information System (EOSDIS) Programs.
 
  o   Use the Internet, particularly the High Performance Computing and 
      Communications Program's NREN (National Research and Education 
      Network), as a means of providing access to and distribution of 
      science data and images and value added products.
 
  o   Provide broad access to and utilization of remotely sensed images in 
      cooperation with other agencies (especially NOAA, EPA, DOE, DEd, 
      DOI/USGS, and USDA). 
 
  o   Support remote sensing image and data users and development 
      communities. 
 
The user and development communities to be included (but not limited to) as
part of this effort are educators, commercial application developers (e.g., 
television weather forecasters), librarians, publishers, agriculture 
specialists, transportation, forestry, state and local government planners, and
aqua business.
 
This program will be initiated in 1994.  Your assistance is requested to 
identify potential applications of remote sensing images and data.  We would 
like your ideas for potential application areas to assist with development of
the Implementation Plan.
 
PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR PROPOSALS.  
 
We are seeking your ideas in these areas: 
 
  (1)  Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images; 
 
  (2)  Potential noncommercial use of remote sensing data and images in 
       education (especially levels K-12) and other noncommercial areas;
 
  (3)  Types of on-line capabilities and protocols to make the data more 
       accessible;
 
  (4)  Additional points of contacts for ideas; and 
 
  (5)  Addresses and names  from whom to request proposals. 
 
For your convenience, a standard format for responses is included below.  Feel
free to amend it as necessary.  Either e-mail or fax your responses to us by
May 5, 1993.
 
E-MAIL:   On Internet "rsdwg@orion.ossa.hq.nasa.gov"  ASCII  - No binary 
attachments please
 
FAX:   Ernie Lucier, c/o RSDWG, NASA HQ, FAX 202-358-3098
 
Survey responses in the following formats may also be placed in the FTP 
directory ~ftp/pub/RSDWG on orion.nasa.gov.  Please indicate the format. 
Acceptable formats are: Word for Windows 2.X, Macintosh Word 4.X and 5.X, and 
RTF.  
 
----------------------------RESPONSE FORMAT--------------------------
 
REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES VIA THE INTERNET
 
(1)  Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images  (if possible,
identify the relevant types of data or science products, user tools, and
standards).
 
(2)  Uses of remote sensing data and images in education (especially levels
K-12) and other noncommercial areas (if possible, identify the relevant types
of data or science products, user tools, and standards). 
 
(3)  Types of on-line capabilities and protocols to make the data and images
more accessible (if possible, identify relevant types of formats, standards,
and user tools)
 
(4)  Additional suggested persons or organizations that may be resources for 
further ideas on applications areas.  Please include: Name, Organization, 
Address and Telephone Number.
 
(5)  Organizations, mailing lists (electronic and paper), periodicals, etc. to
whom a solicitation for proposals should be sent when developed.  Please 
include: Name, Organization, Address and Telephone Number.
 
(6)  We would benefit from knowing why users that know about NASA remote 
sensing data do not use the data.  Is it because they do not have ties to NASA
investigators, or high cost, lack of accessibility, incompatible data formats,
poor area of interest coverage, inadequate spatial or spectral resolution, ...?
 
: A very kind soul has mailed me this reply for the bugs in CView.
: Since he isn't in the position to post this himself, he asked me to post
: it for him, but to leave his name out. So here it comes:
: 
: CView has quite a number of bugs.  The one you mention is perhaps the most
:
A stupid question, but what will CView run on and where can I get it? I
am still in need of a GIF viewer for Linux. (Without X-Windows.)
Thanks!
 
: Has anyone ever heard of a food product called "Space Food Sticks?" 

I remember those awful things.  They were dry and crumbly, and I
recall asking my third-grade teacher, Miss G'Francisco, how they
kept the crumbs from floating around in zero-G.  She had no clue.
I have not seen anything like them in today's space program.

Some Apollo technology is best forgotten.

I am looking for a public domain 3d viewer.  It does not have to be very
fancy.  The features I want is simple wireframe display, flat shading, 
simple transformation.  It would be nice to have hidden line.    

------- Blind-Carbon-Copy

To: spacenews@austen.rand.org, cti@austen.rand.org
Subject: White House outlines options for station, Russian cooperation
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 93 16:00:21 PDT
From: Richard Buenneke <buenneke@austen.rand.org>

4/06/93:  GIBBONS OUTLINES SPACE STATION REDESIGN GUIDANCE

NASA Headquarters, Washington, D.C.
April 6, 1993

RELEASE:  93-64

        Dr.  John H.  Gibbons, Director, Office of Science and Technology
Policy, outlined to the members-designate of the Advisory Committee on the
Redesign of the Space Station on April 3, three budget options as guidance
to the committee in their deliberations on the redesign of the space
station.

        A low option of $5 billion, a mid-range option of $7 billion and a
high option of $9 billion will be considered by the committee.  Each
option would cover the total expenditures for space station from fiscal
year 1994 through 1998 and would include funds for development,
operations, utilization, Shuttle integration, facilities, research
operations support, transition cost and also must include adequate program
reserves to insure program implementation within the available funds.

        Over the next 5 years, $4 billion is reserved within the NASA
budget for the President's new technology investment.  As a result,
station options above $7 billion must be accompanied by offsetting
reductions in the rest of the NASA budget.  For example, a space station
option of $9 billion would require $2 billion in offsets from the NASA
budget over the next 5 years.

        Gibbons presented the information at an organizational session of
the advisory committee.  Generally, the members-designate focused upon
administrative topics and used the session to get acquainted.  They also
received a legal and ethics briefing and an orientation on the process the
Station Redesign Team is following to develop options for the advisory
committee to consider.

        Gibbons also announced that the United States and its
international partners -- the Europeans, Japanese and Canadians -- have
decided, after consultation, to give "full consideration" to use of
Russian assets in the course of the space station redesign process.

        To that end, the Russians will be asked to participate in the
redesign effort on an as-needed consulting basis, so that the redesign
team can make use of their expertise in assessing the capabilities of MIR
and the possible use of MIR and other Russian capabilities and systems.
The U.S. and international partners hope to benefit from the expertise of
the Russian participants in assessing Russian systems and technology.  The
overall goal of the redesign effort is to develop options for reducing
station costs while preserving key research and exploration capabilitiaes.
Careful integration of Russian assets could be a key factor in achieving
that goal.

        Gibbons reiterated that, "President Clinton is committed to the
redesigned space station and to making every effort to preserve the
science, the technology and the jobs that the space station program
represents.  However, he also is committed to a space station that is well
managed and one that does not consume the national resources which should
be used to invest in the future of this industry and this nation."

        NASA Administrator Daniel S.  Goldin said the Russian
participation will be accomplished through the East-West Space Science
Center at the University of Maryland under the leadership of Roald
Sagdeev.

Is the film from the "putt-putt" test vehicle which used conventional
explosives as a proof-of-concept test, or another one?

  >I recently have become aware that my health insurance includes
  >coverage for abortion.  I strongly oppose abortion for reasons of
  >conscience.  It disturbs me deeply to know that my premiums may
  >be being used to pay for that which I sincerely believe is
  >murder.  I would like to request that I be exempted from abortion
  >coverage with my health premiums reduced accordingly.

I share Dennis's outrage over a similar manner.  I have recently become aware
that my health insurance includes coverage for illness and injuries
suffered by Christians.  It disturbs me deeply to know that my premiums
may be used to pay for that which I sincerely believe is divine
punishment for their sinful conduct.  In addition these folks are able to
avail themselves of such alternative therapies as Lourdes, Fatima,
Morris Cerullo, Benny Hinn, etc.  In any case as "Jesus Saves' I feel
that there is no reason for them to be covering their bets at my
expense.  I would like to request that I be exempted from Christian
coverage with my health premiums reduced accordingly.

For better worse, the source on this on is Michael Barnsley. His article
in The Science of Fractal Images (Peitgen et al) is a fair-to-middling
intro. Barnsley's book Fractals Everywhere is a more thorough treatment.
The book covers Iterated Function Systems in general, and their application
to image compression is clear from the text.

Actually, jon, that is quite true.  Christian people have caused
"objective morality" to look very "relative."  After all, that was the
point of the original question in this thread, i.e. can we toss out
Christianity because it is so obviously inconsistent with its own
principles?  If you will bear with me, I will attempt to explain this
apparent inconsistency from at least one Christian's viewpoint:

If God exists and is the creator of mankind as the Bible claims, then
He has a pretty well-defined concept of what makes people tick
physically, emotionally, etc.  GOD has an "objective" morality for us.
That is to say, He has no trouble understanding what is good for (or
detrimental to) the creature He created. 

	Galatians 2:10-- For we [mankind] are His workmanship, created in
	Christ Jesus for good works [a morality], which God prepared
	beforehand [a well-defined design], that we might walk in them.

However, contrary to what many people assume (including the Pharasees
of the Bible,) God's morality cannot be completely codified in a list
of rules and regulations.  To some extent, every activity of a
person's life creates a new situation to which morality must be
applied.  There never could be enough volumes to codify God's
"objective" morality for us. 

Throughout history, mankind has tried to reduce morality to a list of
rules (objectivity, if you please.)  In the Old Testament, we have
both principles and specific rules.  By the time of Jesus, most of the
principles were obscured by the emphasis men had placed on the rules.
Volumes of additional rules had been made to try to codify the
application of the principles.  We [mankind] weren't comfortable with
the "subjectivity" of principles. 

	For reference see Matthew 5 where Jesus explains the difference
	between the Law and the principles of the Law.  For example, in
	verses 21-22:  "You have heard that the ancients were told,
	'You shall not commit murder'...and 'Whoever commits murder shall
	be liable to the court.'  But I say to you that everyone who is
	angry with his brother shall be liable to the court..."

The "objective morality" of God gets blurred by our inept
interpretation of it.  We [Christians] have made our biggest errors
when we have allowed any one person or group of people decide EXACTLY
what God intended for us.  If we [Christians] would stay committed to
seeking God's will instead of trying to prove we already had it all
figured out, we might do a better job of allowing others to find God's
"objective morality" for themselves.  If Jesus is who he said he
was/is (and that's the fundamental question,) then HE IS "objective
morality." 

WHATS THIS  680x1024 256 color mode? Asking a lot of your hardware ?

Another fish to check out is Richard Rast -- he works
for Lockheed Missiles, but is on-site at NASA Johnson.

Nick Johnson at Kaman Sciences in Colo. Spgs and his
friend, Darren McKnight at Kaman in Alexandria, VA.

Good luck.

R. Landis

Okay, I've received a whole lot of requests for the movie, so for
simplicity's sake I can't mail out any more than I've already received (as
of 16:30 EDT, Tuesday).  Maybe it'll pop up on a site sooner or later.

[Most info regarding dangers of reading from Floppy disks omitted]

In all fairness, how many people do you know personally who read images
from Floppy drives?  I haven't tried it with JPEGs, but I do realize how
agonizingly slow it is with GIF files.  

I love it, I love it, I love it!! Wish I could fit all that into a .sig
file! (If someone is keeping a list of Bobby quotes, be sure to include
this one!)

The Flat-Earthers state that "the Earth is flat" is a fact. I don't accept
this, I think it's an unproven opinion, and I think the Round-Earthers are
right because they have better evidence than the Flat-Earthers do.

Although I can't prove that a god doesn't exist, the arguments used to
support a god's existence are weak and often self-contradictory, and I'm not
going to believe in a god unless someone comes over to me and gives me a
reason to believe in a god that I absolutely can't ignore.

A while ago, I read an interesting book by a fellow called Von Daenicken,
in which he proved some of the wildest things, and on the last page, he
wrote something like "Can you prove it isn't so?" I certainly can't, but
I'm not going to believe him, because he based his "proof" on some really
questionable stuff, such as old myths (he called it "circumstancial
evidence" :] ).

So far, atheism hasn't made me kill anyone, and I'm regarded as quite an
agreeable fellow, really. :)

Does anybody have an algorithm for "flattening" out a globe, or any other
parametric surface, that is definied parametrically. 
That is, I would like to take a sheet of paper and a knife and to be
able to calculate how I must cut in the paper so I can fold it to a
globe (or any other object).

We need a good concave ->convex polygon conversion routine.
I've tried a couple without much luck.  Please E-mail responses and I
will post a summary of any replies.  Thank you.

I would like to apologize for the typos in the previous post.

In retrospect I would also like to quote another source: Douglas C.
Haldeman from his 1991 book _Homosexuality_

THERAPY INEFFECTIVE

Recently the founders of yet another prominent "ex-gay" ministry, Exodus
International, denounced their conversion therapy procedures as ineffective.
Michael Busse and Gary Cooper, cofounders of Exodus International and lovers
for 13 years, were involved with the organization from 1976 to 1979.  The
program was described by these men as "ineffective . . . not one person was
healed."  They stated that the program often exacerbated already prominent
feelings of guilt and personal failure among the counselees; many were
driven to suicidal thoughts as a result of the failed "reparative therapy."

The previous article quoted in the last posting is from THE ADVOCATE, June
30, 1992 called "The Ex-Ex-Gay" by Robert Pela.

Some personal thoughts:

It is of no great astonishment that there is a concerted effort by a major
portion of the Church to control and mandate change of a minority among
its ranks.  This was the momentum behind the Spanish Inquisition, only all
they required was a confession of faith (after much torture) and then, to
save their souls they would dispatch them to heaven through death.  Even
later, the Bible was used vigorously to defend slavery, oppression and
segragation of African-Americans, even to the justification of lynchings.
Today's scholars are just a bit more slick in their approach.  The tool is
still coersion, but now it is mostly by means of brainwashing and mind
control, convincing people that they should see themselves as less than
God sees them, then maintaining a cultic hold on them until it is felt
thier mind-conditioning is complete.  Sure, no one is "physically" forced
to stay in this "reparative therapy" but sheer social pressure is enough for
many to keep themselves in this new found bondage of self-hate.

As an abolitionist I advocate the abolishment of oppression and persecution
against gays in all facets of civil life.  A person should be judged by
the contibution, or non-contribution to the society in which they live,
not by some high-brow standard of conformity imposed by those who haven';t
a clue what is in their heart.

For those who seek more information about Gays and groups that accept them
please contact your nearest chapter of PFLAG (Parents & Friends of Lesbians
And Gays) who will be more than happy to assist you.  This is a group of
people comprised of Gays, Lesbians and Bisexuals, their parents and friends
who have formed a support group for help and understanding.  Try talking to
a parent of a gay son or daughter and learn some "first-hand" real life and
loving understanding.  God's love and understanding for Gay people is no
less abundant.

That's right.  Humans have gone somewhat beyond this though.  Perhaps
our goal is one of self-actualization.

Now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me.  This
was not part of the original premise.

Which type of morality are you talking about?  In a natural sense, it
is not at all immoral to harm another species (as long as it doesn't
adversely affect your own, I guess).

Any prize like this is going to need to be worded carefully enough that
you cannot get it without demonstrating sustained and reliable capability,
rather than a lucky one-shot.  It can be done.

Hi,

I'm hoping someone out there will be able to help our computer science
project group. We are doing computer science honours, and our project
is to do a 'graphical simulator for a finite state automata'.

Basically, the program must draw a diagram of a FSA from a textual grammar,
showing circles for states, and labeled arc's in-between.

The problem is working out the best way to layout the states, and draw the
arc's in-between so that as few arc's as possible cross each other.

If anyone has any suggestions/algorithms/bug-free ready to compile C code :) 
that might help us, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

But of course YOUR version of YOUR position has been included in the
Charley Challenges, so your claim above is a flat-out lie.  Further,
only last week you claimed that you "might not" answer the Challenges
because you were turned off by "included text".  So which is it, do
you want your context included in my articles or not?  Come to think
of it, this contradiction has the makings of a new entry in the next
Challenges post.

By the way, I've kept every bloody thing that you've written related
to this thread, and will be only too pleased to re-post any of it to
back my position.  You seem to have forgotten that you leave an
electronic paper trail on the net.

Now, now, let's not change the subject.  Wouldn't it be best to finish
up the thread in question before you begin new ones?

Did you check with the Afghans before posting this?   They
might disagree.

I got just this far.   What do you mean by "goal"?    I hope you
don't mean to imply that evolution has a conscious "goal".

The Orion concept as actually proposed (as opposed to the way it has been
somewhat misrepresented in some fiction) included wrapping a thick layer
of reaction mass -- probably plastic of some sort -- around each bomb.
The bomb vaporizes the reaction mass, and it's that which transfers
momentum to the pusher plate.

Not to worry.  The Masons have been demonized and harrassed by almost 
every major Xian church there is.  For centuries now.  And still they 
stand.  They wil withstand the miserable Southern Boobtists, I am sure.
They may even pick up a little support as people start to listen to the 
Boobtists and realize that subtracting the obvious lies and claims of 
Satanism that the Masons sound pretty good by comparison.  One thing is 
known.  A sizable proportion of Southern Babtists are Masons!  And the 
Masons have already fired back in their own magazines against the 
Boobtist Witch-hunt.
  Since the Consrervatives have already been a divisive element with 
their war on Boobtist moderates and liberals, they may now start in on 
their Mason/Boobtist brothers and hasten their own downfall as more and 
more Southern Boobtists realize their church can't stand being run by a 
handful of clowns looking for holy civil wars and purity tests and drop 
'em out of the leadership positions they have taken over.
  So as far as I am concerned, the louder, ruder, and more outrageous 
an Anti-Masonic Crusade these old goats mount, the better.

Pop some pocorn and get a center row seat.  The circus is about to begin.
And, Oh Look!  HERE COME THE CLOWNS!

Pope Charles    Slack!

Up until last week, I have been running POVray v1.0 on my 486/33 under DOS5
without any major problems.  Over Easter I increased the memory from 4Meg to
8Meg, and found that POVray reboots the system every time under DOS5.  I had
a go at running POVray in a DOS window when running Win3.1 on the same system
and it now works fine, even if a lot slower.  I would like to go back to 
using POVray directly under DOS, anyone any ideas???

John

[horror story about FBI ruining a guy's life for the hell of it omitted]

So, is this a real story or a work of fiction?  How about some
sources?  When, where, and in what newspaper did you get all this
from?  Or is it all hypothetical?

Well, the temp file thing creates an obvious problem: it is impossible to use
cview for viewing CD-ROM based picture collections. And it is the ONLY non-
windows viewer that works properly with my Cirrus-based 24 bit VGA.

The NASM photo archives are open to the public.  All (or almost all)
still pictures in the collection are available for viewing, but I
don't know about films.  At least it might be worth a try.  I'm not
sure if appointments are necessary, but I think not.

Good luck, and let us know what you find.

I have attached a copy of an announcement I picked up during my trip to
Moscow last week.  I have several friends at the Moscow Aviation
Institute who have asked me to post this announcement.  (I have done
some editing, but the contents is unchanged from the original
announcement.) 

For those of you not familiar with the Moscow Aviation Institute, it is
the leading Russian school of higher education dedicated to the training
of aircraft and spacecraft designers.  It specializes in airframe
design, powerplant design, control systems, and power systems.
Virtually all of the major former Soviet airframe designers (Tupolev,
Su, Iluchine, Migoyan, etc.) were schooled at MAI.

I had the opportunity to tour the two museums that are maintained at
MAI.  The aircraft include Mig23, Su 27, Yak 38, the cockpit of an
F-111(!), among others.  It was a fascinating and eye opening
experience, expecially given the fact that the museum was, until a year
or so ago, closed to virtually everyone.  I also had the opportunity to
see some of the experiments being conducted with plasma drive engines
for future space craft use.

If you have any questions about the Institute, or the program, I would
be glad to try and answer them.  The institute, and most of it's faculty
have e-mail addresses.  However, it takes about a day or so for the
receiver to get the message.  They are still a bit antiquated - but they
are rapidly changing!

Steve Emmett
semmett@gmuvax2.gmu.edu

ps  please send any questions you have for me via e-mail.  George Mason
university has about a 2 week (!) delay in news feed delivery.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

		MOSCOW INTERNATIONAL AVIATION SCHOOL

The aviation school "Poljot" (meaning Flight) is organized by the the
Moscow Aviation Institute, the prominent Russian Center of airspace
education and the foreign trade firm Poljot, well known in various
parts of the world for their quartz and mechanical wrist watches.

The course of studies will last only 50 days, but during this time
you will have the unique opportunity:
	- to listen to intensive courses on the main aviation
disciplines, the history and theory of techniques, and design of
airplanes;
	- to visit and get acquainted with the world known Russian 
aviation firms - TU, MiG, Yak, Il and Su;
	- to meet and have discussions with famous aviation
scientists, engineers and pilots;
	- to visit the most interesting museums of unique aviation
techniques which were closed for many years to the public;
	- to see the International Airspace Show which will take
place in Moscow from 31 August through 3 September 1993;
	- to visit famous art museums, historical and architectural
monuments, theatres and concert halls;
	- to take part in sport competitions and have a great time
with new friends.

The Director of the school is Mr. Oleg Samelovich, a well known
Russian scientist, professor, general designer and the Chief of the
Airplanes Design Department of the Moscow Aviation Institute.  Mr.
Samelovich is one of the designers of the the Su-24, Su-25, and Su-27

The lectures are given in English, using a multi-media concept.  The
students are provided with all the necessary text books and
literature.  After the full course of studies are completed, the
student will receive a special certificate of graduation.

The cost of studies, including hotel, meals, excursions, theatres,
etc is $3500.

To apply for admission, send your application to:

109147 Moscow Marksistskaja 34
Foreign Trade Firm "Poljot"
274 00 13 (phone)
274 00 22 (FAX)
411989 POLEX SU (telex)

In your application, include your full name, address, date and place
of birth.  In addition, include complete passport information, as well
as a description of your education.

Upon receipt of this information, "Poljot" will immediately forward
to you an official invitation for obtaining a Russian entrance visa
as well as details on payment.

Should you require additional information, please do not hesitate to
contact us.

(signed)	O. Samelovich

-- 

Steve Emmett				 semmett@gmuvax2.gmu.edu

	Just wondering, do you mean the "Lectorium Rosicrucianum"?
Warning: There is no point in arguing who's "legit" and who's not. *WHICH*
Golden Dawn are you talking about?

	Just for the sake of argument, (reflecting NO affiliation)
I am going to say that the TRUE Rosicrucian Order is the Fraternitas
Rosae Crucis in Quakertown, Penn.,

	Any takers? :-)

Fraternally,

I too would like a 3D graphics library!  How much do C libraries cost
anyway?  Can you get the tools used by, say, RenderMan, and can you get
them at a reasonable cost?

Sorry that I don't have any answers, just questions...

For example, if it were instinctive not to murder...

So, only intelligent beings can be moral, even if the bahavior of other
beings mimics theirs?  And, how much emphasis do you place on intelligence?
Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily, but they
don't.  Are you trying to say that this isn't an act of morality because
most animals aren't intelligent enough to think like we do?

A developable surface is s.t. you can lay it (or roll it) flat on the
plane (it may require you to give it a "cut" though...)

E.g., a cylinder, a cone, a plane (of course!) or any surface or patch
having vanishing Gaussian (intrinsic) curvature (i.e., with singular
Hessian, the matrix of 2nd derivatives for an adequate coordinate patch)
are "developable". In more technical words, a developable surface is
"locally isometric to a plane" at all points.

Think also of the sphere (or the earth) which in a non-developable:
whatever way(s) you cut it, you will not be able to lay flat any pieces
of it... (its intrinsic curvature is nowhere vanishing).

For more details on this look at any book on differential geometry
which treats surfaces (2D manifolds); e.g., M. do Carmo's book:

@Book{Carmo76Differential,
  author =      {do Carmo, Manfredo P.},
  title =       {Differential Geometry of Curves and Surfaces},
  year =        1976,
  publisher =   {Prentice-Hall},
  note =        {503 pages.}}

Enjoy!

Gulp.

[Disclaimer:  This opinion is mine and does not represent the views of
Fermilab, Universities Research Association, the Department of Energy,
or the 49th Ward Regular Science Fiction Organization.]
 
First off, let me congratulate you for not posting a flame about "You sick
perverts, you are immoral, you are all going to hell.", which seems to be the
usual "religious" post found on the alt.sex.* hierarchy.  Hopefully, you won't
get flamed, either.

You will, however, be argued with.  I personally think that your project is
built on unsteady ground.

First, I do not believe that there is any way to find an "objective morality". 
Morality and value are inherently subjective - they represent the beliefs of a
person or a group of people.  They can be widely held, perhaps even
overwhelmingly held, but they are never and _can_ never be objective.

Second, I do not accept the assumptions that you make here.  If, as you say,
you are trying to be objective, then why accept a morality to begin with by
using the Christian Bible?  You're defeating your own purpose by doing so.
 
Third, call me a pessimist, but you won't stop the flamage.  There will always
be people who pop upin alt.sex.* to tell us how sick and twisted and evil we
all are.  Just out of curiosity, do alt.sex readers show up unprovoked in the
religion groups to tell you all that you are narrow-minded, censoring,
overbearing totalitarianists?
 
Hm.  Let me provide an example.  Four people get together over dinner, to
discuss morality: you, me, a rather conservative Moslem, and a sociopath.  I
start off by saying that I think it's immoral to force people to have sex with
you.  You agree, but also say that it is immoral to have sex with someone of
your own gender.  (Just a note: I really don't know your views on
homosexuality, I am just using this as a common view of morality for the
purposes of this example.)  The Moslem says that it is immoral for women to
have their faces uncovered.

The sociopath, who has become bored, kills all three of us and eats us, but
feels no guilt because he has done nothing wrong morally in his own mind. 
                                                                         
	(Evidence deleted)

I'm not going to accept your evidence for this.  You ask us to accept "The Word
of God" that everything good comes from God.  This is only a valid argument for
a person who shares your beliefs.

Still, I must say that cataloging the major themes and motifs in erotica could
be interesting for other reasons than yours, so good luck with this next part.

Hmmm...do I detect just a wee bit of condescence here?
                                                      
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
				not very objective. 

One could construe this to mean that beautiful people are better, or "more
good" than non-beautiful people.  I would hope that people relize that this is
not necessarily true.
                     
                    ^^^^
      Might I suggest the word "penis"? It seems more in line with the tone of
your post. 
          
Bravo!  I respect you and your sense of humor, sir. 

Yes, and this theme is usually what the better stories are about.  However,
they are not always selfish - I could point to examples in the work of Elf
Sternberg, for example.

It serves the same purpose as it does in pornographic movies: it affirms the
virility of the male involved, as well as assuring the reader that he (the
character) has orgasmed.                      

Your Whole Picture [TM] unfortunately only applies to people who accept your
church.
         
In addition, if sex is for procreation, then

1)	Why did God make it pleasurable, so that people would want to do it,
rather than building it in as instinct?
2)	Why did God make it fallible?  Not every sexual encounter results in
pregnancy, even among Catholics.  Does this mean that they have sinned?
 
Granted.

Pornography would not tend in those directions if there were not a demand for
it.  Many people have violent fantasies that they would never act out in real
life, but will think about and read about and mull over.

Later,
						Jeff                                   

Piper lived in my town (Williamsport, PA) when he killed himself.  It
was in the early '60's.  He had had more than a few books published by
that time, but he was down on his luck financially.  Rumor was that he
was hunting urban pigeons with birdshot for food.  He viewed himself as
a resourceful man, and (IMO) decided to check out gracefully if he
couldn't support himself.  The worst part is that John Campbell, the
long-time editor of Astounding/Analog SF magazine had cut a check for
Piper's most recent story, and said check was in the mail.  If Campbell
had known Piper's straits, I'm sure he would have phoned to say hang on.
Campbell was like that.

I wish it had happened differently.  I always enjoyed Piper's stuff.

True, all you need to define is one statement that defined one
polarity, and all the other states are considered the other
polarity. Then again what is the meaning of nil, false or true :-) ?

Cheers,
Kent

What do you mean? Are you saying they thought the effort was
profitable or that the money was efficiently spent (providing max
value per money spent)?

I think they would answer yes on ballance to both questions. Exceptions
would be places like the US from the French Indian War to the end of
the US Revolution. 

But even after the colonies revolted or where given independance the
British engaged in very lucrative trading with the former colonies.
Five years after the American Revolution England was still the largest
US trading partner.

  Allen

DMorf (Dave's Morph, I think is what it means) and DTax (Dave's 
TGA Assembler) are available in the MSDOS_UPLOADS directory
on the wuarchive.

They are arjed and bundled with their respective xmemory versions,
dmorfx.exe and dtax.exe, you can also find a version of aaplay.exe
there, with which you can view files you create with dta.exe or
dtax.exe.

I downloaded the whole bunch last week and have been morphing 
away the afternoons since.  The programmes are all a bit buggy and
definitely not-ready-to-spread-to-the-masses, but they are very
well written. 

The interface is frustrating at first, but it gets easy once you
figure out the tricks.

I have noticed that dmorfx will crash horribly if you try to morph
without using the splines option.  Not sure why, since I don't have
the source.  I think it was written for TP 6.0.

If anyone else comes up with any other hints on getting the thing 
to work right, tell me; it took me several hours the first time
just to figure out that if I just used the durned splines then 
it would work...

Correction: _hard_ atheism is a faith.

Get a grip, man.  The Stalin example was brought up not as an
indictment of atheism, but merely as another example of how people will
kill others under any name that's fit for the occasion.

So hard atheism has nothing to prove?  Then how does it justify that
God does not exist?  I know, there's the FAQ, etc.  But guess what -- if
those justifications were so compelling why aren't people flocking to
_hard_ atheism?  They're not, and they won't.  I for one will discourage
people from hard atheism by pointing out those very sources as reliable
statements on hard atheism.

Second, what makes you think I'm defending any given religion?  I'm merely
recognizing hard atheism for what it is, a faith.

And yes, by "we" I am referring to every reader of the post.  Where is the
evidence that the poster stated that he relied upon?

         ^^^^

Bzzt!  By virtue of your innocent little pronoun, "they", you've just issued
a blanket statement.  At least I will apologize by qualifying my original
statement with "hard atheist" in place of atheist.  Would you call John the
Baptist arrogant, who boasted of one greater than he?  That's what many
Christians do today.  How is that _in itself_ arrogant?
With your sophisticated put-down of "they", the theists, _your_ serious
misinformation shines through.

--

I have a Diamond Speedstar 24X board that I want to program
for 24 bit 640x480 graphics, or possibly 800x600 16 bit color.
Does anybody have any libraries supporting these modes on this
board? Even somes simple routines to set the graphics mode and
plot individual pixels would be a great help. I plan to use the
routines with djgp.

   Thanks in advance. Please respond also via e-mail.

Seems that the Mile-Long Billboard and any other inflateble space
object/station or what ever have the same problems. (other than being a little
bit different than the "normal" space ideas, such as trusses and shuttles)

But also dag and such.. Why not combine the discussion of how and fesibility to
the same topic?

I personnelly liek the idea of a billboard in space. But problem. How do you
service it? fly a shuttle/DC-1 to near it and then dismount and "fly" to it?
Or what?? or havign a special docking section for shuttle/DC-1 docking?

Also what if the billboard springs a leak? Self sealing and such??

Just thinking (okay rambling)..

Also why must the now inflated billboard, not be covered in the inside by a
harder substance (such as a polymer or other agent) and then the now "hard"
billboard would be a now giant docking structure/space dock/station??

Apparently, my editor didn't do what I wanted it to do, so I'll try again.

i'm looking for any programs or code to do simple animation and/or
drawing using fractals in TurboPascal for an IBM
              Thanks in advance

I am looking for a copy of the following Siggraph publication: Gomez, J.E.
"Comments on Event Driven Annimation," Siggraph Course Notes, 10, 1987.

If anyone knows of a location where I can obtain a copy of these notes, I
would appreciate if they could let me know.  Thanks.

No, Bobby.  Stalin killed millions in the name of Socialism.  Atheism was a
characteristic of the Lenin-Stalin version of Socialism, nothing more.
Another characteristic of Lenin-Stalin Socialism was the centralization of
food distribution.  Would you therefore say that Stalin and Lenin killed
millions in the name of rationing bread?  Of course not.

In earlier posts you stated that true (Muslim) believers were incapable of
evil.  I suppose if you believe that, you could reason that no one has ever
been killed in the name of religion.  What a perfect world you live in,
Bobby.  

Bobby is referring to a rather obscure law in _The Good Atheist's 
Handbook_:

Law XXVI.A.3: Give that which you do not believe in a face.  

You must excuse us, Bobby.  When we argue against theism, we usually argue
against the Christian idea of God.  In the realm of Christianity, man was
created in God's image.  

And I maintain:

Some people do not want to enter into the light and the knowledge that
they alone are their own masters, because they fear it; they are too
afraid of having to face the world on their own terms.  And so, by
their own choice, they will remain in darkness, sort of like bugs
under a rock.  However, some people, but not many, will not like the
darkness.  Sometimes it gets too cold and too dark to be comfortable.
These people will crawl out from under the rock, and, although blinded
at first, will get accustomed to the light and enjoy its warmth.  And,
after a while, now that they can see things for what they really are,
they will also see the heights which they can reach, and the places
they can go, and they will learn to choose their own paths through the
world, and they will learn from their mistakes and revel in their
successes.

They will see that there is much much more to the world than just the
narrow experiences under the rock.  They will discover that life under
a rock was incredibly yucky, and that life on their own terms is great
-- so great that they will want to tell everyone else about it.

Do you see my point?  I think you're the one under the rock, and I'm
getting a great tan out here in the sunlight.  My life has improved
immesurably since I abandoned theism -- come and join me!  It will be
a difficult trip at first, until you build up your muscles for the
long hike, but it's well worth it!

Look, you just practically equated Odin and Zeus?  They're as much
different as your god is from them...

Don't you see?  I'm not going to accept ANYTHING that I can't witness
with my own eyes or experience with my own senses, especially not
something as mega-powerful as what you're trying to get me to accept.
Surely if you believe in it this strongly, you must have a good
*reason* to, don't you?

When did I say that?  I say that I would rather CEASE EXISTING instead
of being subject to the whims of a deity, but that if the deity
decided to toss me into the fiery pits because of who I am, then so be it.

Nope -- most people are Christian.  Most people are fond of feeling
that they are imperfect, of believing that the world is an undesirable
place, of reciting magical mystical prayers to make the world nice and
holy again, of doing just as their priests tell them, like good little
sheep.  You enjoy darkness, and you're proud of it.

You may know the Bible well -- but have you read any of the Koran?  Or
Zen writings?  Or Hare Krishna literature?  If you haven't, then how
can you say you have an open mind?

Nope.  You make decisions, enjoy your successes, and accept your
failures; then you die.  If you are content with the life you've led
as you reflect back on it in your final moments, then you've led a
good life.

Please do.

I'm sorry, I don't feel that sacrificing Jesus was something any god
I'd worship would do, unless the sacrifice was only temporary, in
which case it's not really all that important.

Forget the Bible for a minute.  Forget quoting verses, forget about
who said what about this or that.  *Show me.*  Picture just you and me
and a wide open hilltop, and convince me that you're right.

And he went out to meet Asa,
	And said unto him,
	Hear ye me, Asa,
	And all Judah and Benjamin;
	The LORD is with you, while ye be with him;
	and if ye seek him, he will be found of you;
	but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

Dan Johnson-

You don't know me, but take this hand anyway.  Bravo for GO(DS) = 0. 
Beautiful!  Simply beautiful!

The National Air & Space Museum has both the prototype and the film.
When I was there, some years ago, they had the prototype on display and
the film continuously repeating.

This sounds wonderful, but it seems no one either wants to spend time doing
this, or they don't have the power to do so.  For example, I would like
to see a comp.graphics architecture like this:

comp.graphics.algorithms.2d
comp.graphics.algorithms.3d
comp.graphics.algorithms.misc
comp.graphics.hardware
comp.graphics.misc
comp.graphics.software/apps

However, that is almost overkill.  Something more like this would probably
make EVERYONE a lot happier:

comp.graphics.programmer
comp.graphics.apps

It would be nice to see specialized groups devote to 2d, 3d, morphing,
raytracing, image processing, interactive graphics, toolkits, languages,
object systems, etc. but these could be posted to a relevant group or
have a mailing list organized.

That way when someone reads news they don't have to see these subject
headings, which are rather disparate:

System specific stuff ( should be under comp.sys or comp.os.???.programmer ):

	"Need help programming GL"
	"ModeX programming information?"
	"Fast sprites on PC"

Hardware technical stuff:

	"Speed of Weitek P9000"
	"Drivers for SpeedStar 24X"

Applications oriented stuff:

	"VistaPro 3.0 help"
	"How good is 3dStudio?"
	"Best image processing program for Amiga"

Programming oriented stuff:

	"Fast polygon routine needed"
	"Good morphing alogirhtm wanted"
	"Best depth sort for triangles?"
	"Which C++ library to get?"

I wish someone with the power would get a CFD and then a CFV going on
this stuff....this newsgroup needs it.

Well now, we can't judge death until we are dead right?  So, why should
we judge religion without having experienced it?  People have said that
religion is bad by any account, and that it is in no way useful, etc.,
but I don't totally agree with this.  Of course, we cannot really say
how the religious folk would act had they not been exposed to religion,
but some people at least seemed to be helped in some ways by it.

So basically, we can not judge whether religion is the right route for
a given individual, or even for a general population.  We can say that
it is not best for us personally (at least, you can choose not to use
religion--might be hard to try to find out its benefits, as you state
above).

on Date: 01 Apr 93 18:03:12 GMT, Ralph Buttigieg <ralph.buttigieg@f635.n713.z3.fido.zeta.org.au>
/Why can't the government just be a tennant? Private commercial concerns
/could just build a space station system and charge rent to the government
/financed researchers wanting to use it.

I believe that this was the thought behind the Industrial Space Facility.  I
don't remember all the details, but I think Space Services (?) wanted NASA to 
sign an anchor tenancy deal in order to help secure some venture capital but 
NASA didn't like the deal.  (I'm sure I'll hear about it if I'm wrong!)

An review of both the Mac and Windows versions in either PC Week or Info
World this week, said that the Windows version was considerably slower
than the Mac.  A more useful comparison would have been between PhotoStyler
and PhotoShop for Windows.  David

Superficially a good answer, but it isn't that simple.  An awful lot of the
starvation and poverty in the world is directly caused by the economic
policies of the Western countries, as well as by the diet of the typical
Westerner.  For instance, some third-world countries with terrible
malnutrition problems export all the soya they can produce -- so that it can
be fed to cattle in the US, to make tender juicy steaks and burgers.  They
have to do this to get money to pay the interest on the crippling bank loans
we encouraged them to take out.  Fund-raising for Ethiopia is a truly bizarre
idea; instead, we ought to stop bleeding them for every penny they've got.

Perhaps it's more accurate to say that there's a Western ethic against
Western infanticide.  All the evidence suggests that so long as the children
are dying in the Third World, we couldn't give a shit.  And that goes for the
supposed "Pro-Life" movement, too.  They could save far more lives by
fighting against Third World debt than they will by fighting against
abortion.  Hell, if they're only interested in fetuses, they could save more
of those by fighting for human rights in China.

And besides, Suzanne's answer implies that non-Western countries lack this
ethic against infanticide.  Apart from China, with its policy of mandatory
forced abortion in Tibet, I don't believe this to be the case.

The gravity data is collected in real-time and it not recorded to the tape
recorder.  However, you only need to collect the gravity every 3rd or 4th
orbit, so there is no real data loss if the Moon blocks transmission for
a short while.

IF it were'nt for the sin of men, none of this killing would have been 
necesarry, He is KIND and LOVING, but also RIGHTEOUS, 
SIN MUST BE PUNISHED.

Before Jesus, man had to take the sins on himself.
But Jesus died and took it all upon Him, so now we also have a FORGIVING GOD.

(Attempting to define 'objective morality'):

      So long as you keep that "almost" in there, freedom will be a
mostly valuable thing, to most people. That is, I think you're really
saying, "a real big lot of people agree freedom is subjectively valuable
to them". That's good, and a quite nice starting point for a moral
system, but it's NOT UNIVERSAL, and thus not "objective".

      It isn't in Sahara.

For me, it is a "I believe no gods exist" and a "I don't believe gods exist".
 
In other words, I think that statements like gods are or somehow interfere
with this world are false or meaningless. In Ontology, one can fairly
conclude that when "A exist" is meaningless A does not exist. Under the
Pragmatic definition of truth, "A exists" is meaningless makes A exist
even logically false.
 
A problem with such statements is that one can't disprove a subjective god
by definition, and there might be cases where a subjective god would even
make sense. The trouble with most god definitions is that they include
some form of objective existence with the consequence of the gods affecting
all. Believers derive from it a right to interfere with the life of others.
 
Hence we are "all" above the Law where "all" in this case refers to
Christians.

When was the last time you heard about a Jewish animal sacrifice?

The blood sacrifice of an innocent man?

Then why don't Christians follow it, why don't they even follow their
own Ten Commandments?

So, in short; Hitler is in heaven and Gandhi is in Hell?

Help!
How do you write to the second bank/page of memory when in VGA
320x200x256 colour mode?. ie: to perform page flipping animation
and buffering of the screen.
     I have tried using the Map Mask Registers, but this does not
perform the required task (Although it does do something).

Note: It *must* be able to work on a standard VGA (ie: not
necessarily a SVGA card).

	Well....I don't know about its competing with 3D studio, but
it's pretty powerful allright.

	Yes, send e-mail to:

	imagine-request@email.sp.paramax.com

	With a header of something like subscribe.

	I actually work on the FAQ (frequently asked questions).  We
should have the new version out of it by next week, but if you want, I
could e-mail you the previous one.  It details what the list is etc...
as well as answering basic questions about Imagine.

	Hope this helps!

Yes, I did punch in the wrong numbers (working too many late nites).  I
intended on stating 640x400 is 256,000 bytes.  It's not in the bios, just my
VESA TSR.

  Thanks for these surreal moments....
                                               Srinivas

Rather than decide which book you want to buy, you need to decide which
programming interface you want to use, then buy the appropriate book.

I wrote an article for the X Resource which discusses the differences
between PHIGS and PEXlib (it will appear in Issue 6 which should be out
pretty soon).  But here's a brief summary...

PHIGS is a graphics API which was designed to be portable to many
devices.  Most implementations support the X Window System and take
advantage of a 3D extension to X called "PEX".  PEXlib is a slightly
"lower" level API which was designed to efficiently support the PEX
extension to X.

Some advantages of using PEXlib...
- Integrates with Xlib,Xt,Motif,etc. better than PHIGS
- Provides immediate mode capabilities
- Is free of "policy"
- PEX supports PHIGS, but is currently being extended to support
  features not found in PHIGS (like texture mapping, anti-aliasing).
  PEXlib will give you access to all of these features.

Some advantages of using PHIGS...
- Support for multiple devices, not just X based ones
- Support for archiving, metafiles, hardcopy output
- PHIGS has predefined input devices to make input easier
- PHIGS can handle exposure events and resizing for you
- PHIGS can help you with colormap selection/creation.

If you're working strictly in X and don't care about things like
archiving, I would go with PEXlib.  Either way, you will find that
both API's have a lot in common.

Some time ago I sent the following message:
   Every once in a while I design an orbital space colony.  I'm gearing up to
   do another one.  I'd some info from you. If you were to move
   onto a space colony to live permanently, how big would the colony have
   to be for you to view a permanent move as desirable?  Specifically,

   How many people do you want to share the colony with?
 
   What physical dimensions does the living are need to have?  

   Assume 1g living (the colony will rotate).  Assume that you can leave
   from time to time for vacations and business trips.  If you're young
   enough, assume that you'll raise your children there.

I didn't get a lot of responses, and they were all over the block.
Thanx muchly to all those who responded, it is good food for thought.

Here's the (edited) responses I got:

100

Cylinder 200m diameter x 1 km long

Rui Sousa
ruca@saber-si.pt

=============================================================================

100,000 - 250,000

100 square kms surface, divided into city, towns, villages and
countryside.  Must have lakes, rivers amd mountains.

1000.  1000 people really isn't that large a number;
everyone will know everyone else within the space of a year, and will probably
be sick of everyone else within another year.

Hm.  I am not all that great at figuring it out.  But I would maximize the
percentage of colony-space that is accessible to humans.  Esecially if there
were to be children, since they will figure out how to go everywhere anyways.
And everyone, especially me, likes to "go exploring"...I would want to be able
to go for a walk and see something different each time...

For population, I think I would want a substantial town -- big enough
to have strangers in it.  This helps get away from the small-town
"everybody knows everything" syndrome, which some people like but
I don't.  Call it several thousand people.

For physical dimensions, a somewhat similar criterion:  big enough
to contain surprises, at least until you spent considerable time
getting to know it.  As a more specific rule of thumb, big enough
for there to be places at least an hour away on foot.  Call that
5km, which means a 10km circumference if we're talking a sphere.

                                         Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
                                          henry@zoo.toronto.edu   utzoo!henry

My desires, for permanent move to a space colony, assuming easy communication
and travel:

Size:  About a small-town size, say 9 sq. km.  'Course, bigger is better :-)
Population:  about 100/sq km or less.  So, ~1000 for 9sqkm.  Less is
better for elbow room, more for interest and sanity, so say max 3000, min 300.

-Tommy Mac
Tom McWilliams | 517-355-2178 (work) \\     Inhale to the Chief!
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu  | 336-9591 (hm)\\  Zonker Harris in 1996!

	The only way out seems to be death.

---  

Here are some selected excerpts of the invitation/registration form they
sent me. Retyped without permission, all typo's are mine.

Low-Cost Lunar Access: A one-day conference to explore the means and 
benefits of a rejuvenated human lunar program.

Friday, May 7, 1993
Hyatt Regency - Crystal City Hotel
Arlington, VA

ABOUT THE CONFERENCE
The Low-Cost Lunar Access conference will be a forum for the exchange of
ideas on how to initiate and structure an affordable human lunar program.
Inherent in such low-cost programs is the principle that they be 
implemented rapidly and meet their objectives within a short time
frame.

[more deleted]

CONFERENCE PROGRAM (Preliminary)

In the Washington Room:

  9:00 - 9:10 a.m.     Opening Remarks
    Dr. Alan M. Lovelace

  9:10 - 9:30 a.m.     Keynote Address
    Mr. Brian Dailey

  9:30 - 10:00 a.m.    U.S. Policy Outlook
    John Pike, American Federation of Scientists

  A discussion of the prospects for the introduction of a new low-cost
  lunar initiative in view of the uncertain direction the space
  program is taking.

  10:00 - 12:00 noon   Morning Plenary Sessions

  Presentations on architectures, systems, and operational concepts.
  Emphasis will be on mission approaches that produce significant
  advancements beyond Apollo yet are judged to be affordable in the
  present era of severely constrained budgets

In the Potomac Room

  12:00 - 1:30 p.m.    Lunch
    Guest Speaker: Mr. John W. Young,
    NASA Special Assistant and former astronaut

In the Washington Room

  1:30 - 2:00 p.m.     International Policy Outlook
    Ian Pryke (invited)
    ESA, Washington Office

  The prevailing situation with respect to international space 
  commitments, with insights into preconditions for European 
  entry into new agreements, as would be required for a cooperative
  lunar program.

  2:00 - 3:30 p.m.     Afternoon Plenary Sessions

  Presentations on scientific objectives, benefits, and applications.
  Emphasis will be placed on the scientific and technological value
  of a lunar program and its timeliness.

There is a registration form and the fee is US$75.00. The mail address
is 

     American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
     Dept. No. 0018
     Washington, DC 20073-0018

and the FAX No. is: 

     (202) 646-7508

or it says you can register on-site during the AIAA annual meeting 
and on Friday morning, May 7, from 7:30-10:30

Sounds interesting. Too bad I can't go.

There is an interesting opinion piece in the business section of today's
LA Times (Thursday April 15, 1993, p. D1).  I thought I'd post it to
stir up some flame wars - I mean reasoned debate.  Let me preface it by
saying that I largely agree that the "Space Age" in the romantic sense
of several decades ago is over, and that projects like the space station
miss the point at this time.  Reading, for example, "What's New" -
the weekly physics update we get here on the net - it's clear that the
romance of the day lies in the ever more fine-grained manipulation of
matter: by which I include biotechnology, condensed matter physics (with
its spinoffs in computer hardware and elsewhere), and the amazing things
people are doing with individual atoms these days.  To a large extent, I
think, the romance some people still have with space is a matter of
nostalgia.  I feel sure that someday we - or more precisely, our "mind
children" - will spread across space (unless we wipe ourselves out); but
I think that *manned* space exploration is not what is exciting about
what we can do *now*.   

Anyway, let me quote some of this article, but not all...

SPACE AGE GLORY FADES FROM VIEW

Micheal Schrage (writer, consultant, and research associate at MIT)

At 35, America's Space Age won't have to suffer through the angst of a
midlife crisis.

The reason is that the Space Age is already dead.  The technologies no
longer define our times, and the public has grown weary of the multibillion
-dollar celestial investments that yield minimal psychic or economic
rewards.  

Space exploration has mutated from a central focuse of America's science
and technology debate into a peripheral issue.  Speace is not a
meaningful part of the ongoing industrial competitiveness debate, our
technology infrastructure discussions or even our defense conversion
policy.  

To be sure, America should continue to invest in satellite technologies
for telecommunications and remote sensing - cheap deep-space probes
would be nice too - but the ideal of space as a meaningful driver of
scientific and industrial innovation is now dead.

.....

Before the change in administrations, it would have been foolish to
write an obituary for the Space Age.  The Bush White House aggressively
supported the space program and proposed spending well over $30 billion
to build space station Freedom alone.

Even as he proposed budget cuts in other science and technology domains,
Office of Management and Budget Director Richard Darman was an outspoken
public champion of big-ticket space expenditures.  The reality that much
of the civilian space program - from the shuttle to the Hubble telescope
to the space station - was poorly conceived and unimpressively
implemented did not seem to matter much.

Political inertia and a nostalgic sense of futurism - not a coherent
vision or cost-effective sensibilities - determined multibillion-dollar
space budgets.

Indeed, with few notable exceptions, such as Voyager, the post-Apollo
era is the story of the gold-plated porkification of space exploration
with programs and promises that delivered less for more and more.  

......

While the Clinton Administration has kept on the highly regarded Daniel
Goldin as administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, it seems clear that space exploration is not being
positioned as either a symbolic or substantive centerpiece of America's
technological prowess.  The space station budget has - rightly - been
slashed.  Space is virtually ignored when the Administration champions
its competitiveness agenda.

......

...

	Before or after his kids were shot?

	Then why make the comment?

	As did the Jews against the Nazis in WW II:  do what I say or die.

	ALl humans, I hope.

	Or perhaps they have:  kill first, blame the dead ones,
	destroy all the evidence.

Wow! A 68070! I'd be very interested to get my hands on one of these,
especially considering the fact that Motorola has not yet released the
68060, which is supposedly the next in the 680x0 lineup. 8-D

   Try graPHIGS from IBM... It is an excellent package! :^)

Doug
 
At the cost of repudiating the FAQ, I think too much is made of the
strong vs weak atheism issue, although in the context of alt.atheism,
where we're continually attacked on the basis that strong atheists
"believe" in the non-existence of god, I think the separation is a
valid one.

To cover my arse, what I'm trying to say is that there is an
infinitely grey area between weak and strong, as well as between
strong and the unattainable mathematical atheism (I wish!).  Whereas I
_logically_ can only support the weak atheist position, in effect I am
a strong atheist (and wish I could be a mathematical one).  To
justify my strong atheist position I believe I need only show that
the evidence presented in favour of any of the gods under scrutiny
is faulty.

If I read the FAQ correctly, no argument for the existence of god
(generic, as represented by mainstream theologians) has ever been
found to be unassailable.  To me this is adequate evidence that the
_real_god_ is undefinable (or at least no definition has yet been
found to be watertight), which in turn I accept as sufficient to
base a disbelief in each and every conceivable god.

I'm a little fuzzy on the edges, though, so opinions are welcome
(but perhaps we should change the thread subject).

I've recently got hold of a PC with an S3 card in it, and I'd like to do some
C programming with it, are there any libraries out there that will let me
access the high resolution modes available via Borland Turbo C?

Hi, I've come across a fast triangle fill-draw routine for mode 13h.  By
calling this routine enough times, you have a fast polygon drawing routine.

I think I ftp'ed from wuarchive.wustl.edu:/pub/MSDOS_UPLOADS/programming.
I have a copy of it so I reupload it there.  The triangle.txt file has this
to say :

I've just had the good fortune to be hired by Electronic Arts as Senior
Computer Graphics Artist at the Vancouver, Canada office.  :^)

The timing has a lot to do with the 3DO which EA is putting a lot of resources
into.  I do not know of any titles to be developed as yet but will be happy to
post as things develop.  I start there May 3.

John Berryhill, Ph.D. writes

umm, please don't lump us all together. It's those blatant,
fundamentalist pickers that give the rest of us a bad name. Some of
us try very hard to be discreet and stay alert.

Where could I find a description of the JPG file format?  Specifically
I need to know where in a JPG file I can find the height and width of 
the image, and perhaps even the number of colors being used.

Any suggestions?

Peter

I have a researcher who collecting electical impulses from
the human heart through a complex Analog to Digital system
he has designed and inputting this information into his EISA
bus HP Vectra Computer running DOS and the Phar Lap DOS extender. 

He want to purchase a very high-performance video card for
3-D modeling. He is aware of a company called Matrox but
he is concerned about getting married to a company and their
video routine library. He would hope some more flexibility:
to choose between several card manufacturers with a standard
video driver. He would like to write more generic code- 
code that could be easily moved to other cards or computer operating
systems in the future. Is there any hope?
Any information would be greatly appreciated-
Please, if possible, respond directly to internet mail 
to raymaker@bcm.tmc.edu

Poor Matthew.   A million posters to call "you car drivers" and he
chooses me, a non car owner.

They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution.  They
picked words whose meanings implied the intent.  We have already looked
in the dictionary to define the word.  Isn't this sufficient?

But we were discussing it in relation to the death penalty.  And, the
Constitution need not define each of the words within.  Anyone who doesn't
know what cruel is can look in the dictionary (and we did).

I've been trying to figure out a way to get Adobe Illustrator
to auto-trace >exactly< what I see on my screen. But it misses
the edges of templates by as many as 6 pixels or more - resulting in images
that are useless  - I need exact tracing, not approximate.

I've tried adjusting the freehand tolerances as well as autotrace
tolerances but it doesn't help. Any suggestions?

I would really appreciate if when someone brought something like
this up they didn't back out when someone asked for details.

Unfortunately, if you launch this from the US (or are a US citizen),
you will need a launch permit from the Office of Commercial Space
Transportation, and I think it may be difficult to get a permit for
an antisatellite weapon... :-)

The threshold at which OCST licensing kicks in is roughly 100km.
(The rules are actually phrased in more complex ways, but that is
the result.)

Allen, sometimes I think you're OK.  And sometimes you tend to rashly leap into
making statement without thinking them out. 

Wanna guess which today?

You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff.  Do you know 
of a private Titan pad? 

/(me)

/(hudson)
/Why does that make something immoral?

Because you are not being consistent.  Moral systems must be consistent.

A person who thinks they can inflict pain on others, but doesn't want it 
inflicted upon themselves, has a double standard.  And double standards are
a violation of *any* moral system.

(me)

/(hudson)
/Of course we don't like pain.  I don't like brussel sprouts.  Are brussel
/sprouts immoral?

Pain isn't immoral, stupid.  Pain itself is just a physiological
reaction.  

What >>is<< immoral is subjecting unwilling individuals to pain.

Or brussel sprouts, for that matter.

(hudson)
(me)

/(hudson)
/Why would it be wrong to make humans undergo the effects of the reactions
/if humans are composed only of matter?  

What humans are composed of isn't the qualifying criteria of whether or
not something would be wrong.  

/(hudson)
/Is it wrong to make matter undergo chemical reactions?

Yes, if it is sentient matter.

/(me)
/>Nature is not a sentient force; there is no choice involved.  Therefore,
/>no question of morality.

/(hudson)
/I actually heard a geologist entertain the notion that matter had a will.
/There is some sentient force out there.  

Fine.  I have also heard that the government is encoding the DNA for 
a new race of superhumans in ordinary drinking water.  

What's your point?

/(hudson)
/If humans are made only of matter, then choices are also chemical reactions,
/so why is choice an important issue.

And if that is the case, then god is only an idea contained in the minds
of people (formed of matter) and on printed pages (also formed of matter)
and does not really exist.  

Hi !

If you want to have Soft-Scrolling on your VGA, you have to change some 
intern registers of the CRTC. But it is a little bit difficult to explain, 
so I would suggest, you take a look at "The Programming of the 
EGA/VGA-Adapter" by Addison-Wesley. You will find all useful descriptions 
for every available VGA-Register.

-Boris

Why would it have to be much faster (it probably is) ? Assuming an ARM
is about as efficient as a MIPS R3000 for integer calculations, doing
a Compact-Video-like digital video codec is an easy task. For Software
Motion Pictures (which is a lot like Compact Video, though it predates
it), we get 48 frames/sec. at 320x240 on a DECstation 5000/200. That
machine has a 25 Mhz MIPS R3000. 

Neil Gehrels is Prof. Tom Gehrels son.  Tom Gehrels was the discoverer
of P/Gehrels 3 (as well as about 4 other comets - the latest of which
does not bear his name, but rather the name "Spacewatch" since he was
observing with that system when he found the latest comet).  

---------------------------------------------
Jim Scotti 
{jscotti@lpl.arizona.edu}
Lunar & Planetary Laboratory
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721 USA

Mr. Clinton said today that the horrible tragedy of the Waco fiasco
should remind those who join cults of the dangers of doing so.
Now, I began scratching my head thinking (a bad sign :-), "don't the 
mainstream religions (in this case Christianity...or the 7th day 
adventist in particular) just keep these guys going ? Isn't Mr. Clinton 
condemning his own religion ? After all, isn't it a cult too ?"

Stone, DeRose: Geometric characterization of parametric cubic curves.
ACM Trans. Graphics 8 (3) (1989) 147 - 163.

Manocha, Canny: Detecting cusps and inflection points in curves.
Computer aided geometric design 9 (1992) 1-24.

Looking for a graphics/CAD/or-whatever package on a X-Unix box that will
take a file with records like:

n  a  b  p

where n = a count  - integer 
      a = entity a - string
      b = entity b - string
      p = type     - string

and produce a networked graph with nodes represented with boxes or circles
and the vertices represented by lines and the width of the line determined by
n.  There would be a different line type for each type of vertice. The boxes
need to be identified with the entity's name.  The number of entities < 1000
and vertices < 100000.  It would be nice if the tool minimized line
cross-overs and did a good job of layout.  ;-)

  I have looked in the FAQ for comp.graphics and gnuplot without success. Any
ideas would be appreciated?

Thanks,

From the "JPL Universe"
April 23, 1993

Cosmologist Stephen Hawking tours Lab

Several people have enquired about the availability of the book about the
Great 72" reflector built at Birr Castle, Ireland in 1845 which remained the
largest in the world until the the start of the 20th century.

"The Astronomy of Birr Castle" was written by Patrick Moore who now sits on
the committee which is going to restore the telescope. (The remains are on
public display all year round - the massive support walls, the 60 foot long
tube, and other bits and pieces). This book is the definitivie history of
how one man, the Third Earl of Rosse, pulled off the most impressive
technical achievement, perhaps ever, in the history of the telescope, and
the discoveries made with the instrument.

Patrick Moore is donating all proceeds from the book's sale to help restore
the telescope. Astronomy Ireland is making the book available world wide by
mail order. It's a fascinating read and by ordering a copy you bring the day
when we can all look through it once again that little bit nearer.

=====ORDERING INFORMATION=====
"The Astronomy of Birr Castle" Dr. Patrick Moore, xii, 90pp, 208mm x 145mm.
Price:
U.S.: US$4.95 + US$2.95 post & packing (add $3.50 airmail)
U.K. (pounds sterling): 3.50 + 1.50 post & packing
EUROPE (pounds sterling): 3.50 + 2.00 post and packing
REST OF WORLD: as per U.S. but funds payable in US$ only.

PAYMENT:
Make all payments to "Astronomy Ireland".
CREDIT CARD: MASTERCARD/VISA/EUROCARD/ACCESS accepted by email or snail
mail: give card number, name & address, expiration date, and total amount.
Payments otherwise must be by money order or bank draft.
Send to our permanent address: P.O.Box 2888, Dublin 1, Ireland.

You can also subscribe to "Astronomy & Space" at the same time. See below:
Tony Ryan, "Astronomy & Space", new International magazine, available from:

Well, I've provided examples to show that the trend was general, and you
(or others) have provided some counterexamples, mostly ones surrounding
mating practices, etc.  I don't think that these few cases are enough to
disprove the general trend of natural morality.  And, again, the mating
practices need to be reexamined...

No, but mating practices are a special case.  I'll have to think about it
some more.

Indeed.  But, while the natural system is objective, all objective systems
are not the natural one.  So, the terms can not be equated.  The natural
system is a subset of the objective ones.

I don't claim that homosexuality is immoral.  It isn't harmful, although
it isn't helpful either (to the mating process).  And, when you say that
homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom, don't you mean "bisexuality?"

This is standard jargon.  Read any textbook.  The "we" forms are used
throughout.

That's right.  The goals themselves aren't inherent.

You could, but such would contradict observations.

But a postulate is something that is generally (or always) found to be
true.  I don't think your postulate would be valid.

Yes, and I think the goals of survival and happiness *do* work.  You think
they don't?  Or are they not good goals?

Who says there is no mineral rights to be given? Who says? The UN or the US
Government? 
Major question is if you decide to mine the moon or Mars, who will stop you?
The UN can't other than legal tom foolerie.. Can the truly inforce it?

If you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation, who will
stop you from doing it. Maybe not acknowledge you? 

Why can't a small company or corp or organization go an explore the great
beyond of space? what right does earth have to say what is legal and what is
not.. Maybe I am a few years ahead on this.. It is liek the old Catholic Church 
stating which was Portugals and what was Spains, and along came the Reformation
and made it all null and void.. 

What can happen is to find a nation which is acknowledged, and offer your
services as a space miner and then go mine the asteroids/mars/moon or what
ever.. As long as yur sponsor does not get in trouble..
Basically find a country who wants to go into space, but can't for soem reason
or another, but who will give you a "home".. Such as Saudia Arabia or
whatever..
There are nations in the World who are not part of the UN, got to them and
offer your services and such.. I know that sound crazy, but. is it..
Also once you have the means to mine the moon (or whatever) then just do it.
The UN if done right can be made to be so busy with something else, they will
not care.. 
If your worried about the US, do the same thing..

Why be limited by the short sighted people of earth.. After all they have many
other things to worry about that if someone is mining the Moon or MArs or what
ever..
Basically what I am saying is where is that drive of yeasteryears to go a
little bit farther out, to do jus ta  little bit more, and to tell the crown to
piss off.. If my ancestors thought the way many today think, Id have been born
in Central Europe just north of the Black Sea..

I just read a good book, "Tower of the Gods" Interesting..

I saw in the newspaper last night that Dr. Mae Jemison, the first
black woman in space (she's a physician and chemical engineer who flew
on Endeavour last year) will appear as a transporter operator on the
"Star Trek: The Next Generation" episode that airs the week of May 31.
It's hardly space science, I know, but it's interesting.

Unless I'm imaging things, (always a possibility =) 1992 QB1, the Kuiper Belt
object discovered last year, is known as Smiley.

 Which Golden Dawn? How about the original from 100 years ago?

 No. No Rosicrucian would ever admit or deny being such.

Actually, it is simple.

A person P has committed a crime C in country X if P was within the borders
of X at the time when C was committed.  It doesn't matter if the physical
manifestation of C is outside X.

For instance, if I hack into NASA's Ames Research Lab and delete all their
files, I have committed a crime in the United Kingdom.  If the US authorities
wish to prosecute me under US law rather than UK law, they have no automatic
right to do so.

This is why the net authorities in the US tried to put pressure on some sites
in Holland.  Holland had no anti-cracking legislation, and so it was viewed
as a "hacker haven" by some US system administrators.

Similarly, a company called Red Hot Television is broadcasting pornographic
material which can be received in Britain.  If they were broadcasting in
Britain, they would be committing a crime.  But they are not, they are
broadcasting from Denmark, so the British Government is powerless to do
anything about it, in spite of the apparent law-breaking.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, so I could be wrong.  More confusingly, I could
be right in some countries but not in others...

There is a wonderful book by Jean Meeus called
"Astronomical Algorithms," (1991) which I am fairly sure
contains an algorithm for sunrise and sunset times.

Dan Asimov
Mail Stop T045-1
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

There was a recession, and none of the potential entrants could raise any
money.  The race organizers were actually supposed to be handling part of
the fundraising, but the less said about that the better.

Hi everyone,

I thought that some people may be interested in my VR
software on these groups:

*******Announcing the release of Multiverse-1.0.2*******

Multiverse is a multi-user, non-immersive, X-Windows based Virtual Reality
system, primarily focused on entertainment/research.

Features:

   Client-Server based model, using Berkeley Sockets.
   No limit to the number of users (apart from performance).
   Generic clients.
   Customizable servers.
   Hierachical Objects (allowing attachment of cameras and light sources).
   Multiple light sources (ambient, point and spot).
   Objects can have extension code, to handle unique functionality, easily
        attached.

Functionality:

  Client:
   The client is built around a 'fast' render loop. Basically it changes things
   when told to by the server and then renders an image from the user's
   viewpoint. It also provides the server with information about the user's
   actions - which can then be communicated to other clients and therefore to
   other users.

   The client is designed to be generic - in other words you don't need to
   develop a new client when you want to enter a new world. This means that
   resources can be spent on enhancing the client software rather than adapting
   it. The adaptations, as will be explained in a moment, occur in the servers.

   This release of the client software supports the following functionality:

    o Hierarchical Objects (with associated addressing)

    o Multiple Light Sources and Types (Ambient, Point and Spot)

    o User Interface Panels

    o Colour Polygonal Rendering with Phong Shading (optional wireframe for
	faster frame rates)

    o Mouse and Keyboard Input

   (Some people may be disappointed that this software doesn't support the
   PowerGlove as an input device - this is not because it can't, but because
   I don't have one! This will, however, be one of the first enhancements!)

  Server(s):
   This is where customization can take place. The following basic support is
   provided in this release for potential world server developers:

    o Transparent Client Management

    o Client Message Handling

   This may not sound like much, but it takes away the headache of
accepting and
   terminating clients and receiving messages from them - the
application writer
   can work with the assumption that things are happening locally.

   Things get more interesting in the object extension functionality. This is
   what is provided to allow you to animate your objects:

    o Server Selectable Extension Installation:
        What this means is that you can decide which objects have extended
        functionality in your world. Basically you call the extension
        initialisers you want.

    o Event Handler Registration:
        When you develop extensions for an object you basically write callback
        functions for the events that you want the object to respond to.
        (Current events supported: INIT, MOVE, CHANGE, COLLIDE & TERMINATE)

    o Collision Detection Registration:
        If you want your object to respond to collision events just provide
        some basic information to the collision detection management software.
        Your callback will be activated when a collision occurs.

    This software is kept separate from the worldServer applications because
    the application developer wants to build a library of extended objects
    from which to choose.

    The following is all you need to make a World Server application:

    o Provide an initWorld function:
        This is where you choose what object extensions will be supported, plus
        any initialization you want to do.

    o Provide a positionObject function:
        This is where you determine where to place a new client.

    o Provide an installWorldObjects function:
        This is where you load the world (.wld) file for a new client.

    o Provide a getWorldType function:
        This is where you tell a new client what persona they should have.

    o Provide an animateWorld function:
        This is where you can go wild! At a minimum you should let the objects
        move (by calling a move function) and let the server sleep for a bit
        (to avoid outrunning the clients).

    That's all there is to it! And to prove it here are the line counts for the
    three world servers I've provided:

        generic - 81 lines
        dactyl - 270 lines (more complicated collision detection due to the
                           stairs! Will probably be improved with future
                           versions)
        dogfight - 72 lines

Location:

   This software is located at the following site:
   ftp.u.washington.edu

   Directory:
   pub/virtual-worlds

   File:
   multiverse-1.0.2.tar.Z

Futures:

   Client:

    o Texture mapping.

    o More realistic rendering: i.e. Z-Buffering (or similar), Gouraud shading

    o HMD support.

    o Etc, etc....

   Server:

    o Physical Modelling (gravity, friction etc).

    o Enhanced Object Management/Interaction

   Both:

    o Improved Comms!!!

I hope this provides people with a good understanding of the Multiverse
software,
unfortunately it comes with practically zero documentation, and I'm not sure
whether that will ever be able to be rectified! :-(

I hope people enjoy this software and that it is useful in our explorations of
the Virtual Universe - I've certainly found fascinating developing it, and I
would *LOVE* to add support for the PowerGlove...and an HMD :-)!!

Finally one major disclaimer:

This is totally amateur code. By that I mean there is no support for this code
other than what I, out the kindness of my heart, or you, out of pure
desperation, provide. I cannot be held responsible for anything good or bad
that may happen through the use of this code - USE IT AT YOUR OWN RISK!

Disclaimer over!

Of course if you love it, I would like to here from you. And anyone with
POSITIVE contributions/criticisms is also encouraged to contact me. Anyone who
hates it: > /dev/null!

*********
And if anyone wants to let me do this for a living: you know where to
write :-)!
*********

Thanks,

Robert.

}>}So stop dodging the question.  What is hypocritical about my
}>}criticizing bad arguments, given that I do this both when I agree
}>}with the conclusion and when I disagree with the conclusion?  
}>
}>You are the one who has claimed to possess the fruits of precognition,
}>telepathy, and telempathy.  Divine it yourself.
}
}Another dodge.  Oh well.  I'm no match for your amazing repertoire
}of red herrings and smoke screens.  
}
}You asked for an apology.  I'm not going to apologize for pointing out
}that your straw-man argument was a straw-man argument.  Nor for saying
}that your list of "bible contradictions" shows such low standards of
}scholarship that it should be an embarrassment to anti-inerrantists,
}just as Josh McDowell should be an embarrassment to the fundies.  Nor
}for objecting various times to your taking quotes out of context.  Nor
}for pointing out that "they do it too" is not an excuse. Nor for calling
}your red herrings and smoke screens what they are.

How about the following inaccurate, unsubstantiated accusations:
In 8257@blue.cis.pitt.edu
	- but no "threat" produced 
	- display of telepathy
	- in spite of no "threat" produced, nor forecast ever happening (precognition?)
	- in spite of claimed threat never being given
	- in spite of it never happening.  telepathy or precognition?
	- unsubstantiated and untrue.  more telepathy?  Or maybe telempathy?
	- unsubstantiated again.  Seems to be a habit...

Having more trouble with reality, it appears.  Why get bothered with the facts when
you appear to have the products of paranatural divination methods?

I am setting up a video-aid for a computer room for the teacher to share his
display with the class.

I have seen people using video projector, TV sets and large monitor to do
presentations before. I am told that there are three ways to connect video
projector: composite, Y/C & RGB.

Can anyone explain to me the difference and their likely costs?

Please reply to my INETNET E-mail account as well as posting in bulletin:
u129008@sparc20.nuc.edu.tw

I also like to know if there are TELNET or KERMIT for windows.

I would guess not.  Dr. Neil Gehrels of CGRO is the son of Dr. Tom
Gehrels of the University of Arizona.  Since he's long had research
interests in asteroids and other solar-system astronomy, Tom is the
one more likely to have discovered  a comet (and thus had his name
attached to it).

Tom Gehrels is a leader in the Spacewatch project, which has recently
increased mankind's discovery rate on near-Earth asteroids (they're
finding a couple every month).  For much more on this interesting guy,
read his autobiography, *On a Glassy Sea*.

/(hudson)
/If all morality were relative- big hairy deal.

As I said, you appear to be the only person saying that all morality
is relative.  Most people I know do hold some absolutes in their
moral system.

I >>personally<< believe that the dignity of the individual and the right
of free will are absolutes.  I recognize that there are some moral
systems around which don't accept this; I reject them as dangerous
and anti-social (nazism, some forms of communism, fundamentalist
xtianity--no, that's not a slam).  But for the most part, almost
every moral system agrees on these two points.

(me)

/(hudson)
/Generally, Christians believe in a Creator-Creation distinction.  Other
/religions believe in one big whole.   I don't accept yor premises.

Too bad.  I know I'm right, so I get to enforce my view upon you whether
you like my premise or not.  And since you can't prove otherwise, there
isn't even an intellectual basis for your resistance to accepting my
viewpoint.

/(hudson)
/I don't think so.  once morality becomes relative, it degenerates.  I am
/saying that reasoning that it is generally evil to hurt other people is bad.
/(though I don't think it is sufficient.)  

Well, then answer me this:   you seem to be opposed to moral relativism
(as you call it) because it has the capacity to degenerate.  Obviously,
then, you would advocate a nonrelative (absolute) moral system.

Whose absolutist moral system do we choose?  

How do we come to this decision?

What about people who disagree with the chosen moral system?

/(hudson)
/But if morality is considered to
/be relative, and this rule isn't based on anything, but is just an arbitrary
/rule, people might abandon it.

Fine.  I can agree with most of what you typed here.  However, just because
morality gets based on something nonrelative does NOT mean that we have to
pick your xtianity as its base.

While I'll agree that these are generally held to be "good things", I
question whether they come very close to being objective values.
Especially considering that at one time or another each has been
viewed as being undesirable.  I doubt you could even come up with
anything that could be said to be universally "good" or "bad".

And when I referred to "the truth" I was using the term
hypothetically, realizing full well that there may not even be such a
thing.

True enough.  But they cannot be said to be anything more than
personal morals.  One thing notably lacking in most extremists is any
sense of _personal_ accountability - the justification for any
socially unacceptable behaviour is invariably some "higher authority"
(aka, absolute moral truth).

An objective truth that says one cannot know the objective truth?
Interesting notion.   :-)

Certainly one can have as one's morals a belief that compromise is
good.  But to compromise on the absolute truth is not something most
people do very successfully.  I suppose one could hold compromise as
being an absolute moral, but then what happens when someone else
insists on no compromise?  How do you compromise on compromising?

Almost invariably when considering the relative value of one thing
over another, be it morals or consequences, people only consider those
aspects which justify a desired action or belief.  In justifying a
commitement to peace I might argue that it lets people live long &
healthy and peaceful lives.  While that much may well be true, it is
incomplete in ignoring the benefits of war - killing off the most
agressive member of society, trimming down the population, stimulating
production.  The equation is always more complex than presented.
To characterize relative morals as merely following one's own
conscience / desires is to unduly simplify it.

Yes, but whose freedom?  The world in general doesn't seem to value the
freedom of Tibetans, for example.

It should have been made fairly clear that the *most* Crimson would
ever get was a 150 (75 old style) MHz CPU upgrade.  Certainly this
was mentioned on comp.sys.sgi on more than one occasion as being
likely.  If our sales folks were saying otherwise, they were either
confused, or less than honest/ethical, or somebody further up the
chain inside SGI was misleading them.

There were 4 versions (20, 25, 30, 35), although admittedly the 30 came
out at the same time as the 35, over a period of 2 1/2 years.  The
chassis simply couldn't be pushed any further.  I'd say 4 years was
a pretty good lifespan, myself, for a system design in this day and
age.  Getting the 35 to work caused a lot of gray hairs in both the
hardware and product design groups; we would have been out of our
minds to push it further, and I *know* that was made clear, almost
from the day the 35 started shipping.  We had one last kicker in
the form of the Elan graphics, which made 3 graphics versions over
its lifespan, which I also think is pretty good.

Please, by all means send a complaint letter through SGI support
or sales on your concerns.  There should be no reason for sales folks
to misrepresent future upgrades to customers (sure, sometimes there
will be confusion for a while, over whether an upgrade will be available,
but that shouldn't last too long, and doesn't seem to be what you
are referring to).

Yes, the sales folks *do* get bonus's at the end of some (all?) quarters,
but that is pretty common industry wide, and sometimes that can result
in good deals for customers (sometimes it probably pushes folks into
systems that aren't what they need, I'm sure, but nobody is *forcing*
you to buy at end of quarter, after all...)

They don't get all that long a lead time either; although certainly
they get presentations on possible new products, and their opinions
may well influence the end product, but that also is life in the
industry.  We can't design systems that meet just their needs, or we
won't sell too many systems, after all (which is not to say that we
don't have some niche products, like Reality Engine).

But surely you don't expect a system you buy now for a five year
period to be constantly upgradable over that entire five year
period?  That's a rather unreasonable expectation, in my experience
(with workstations/microcomputers).  Supported, and parts available,
yes, but certainly not upgradable to the latest and greatest!

I missed your first posting, but as I say, by all means share your
frustation with somebody at a level inside SGI where it might
have an effect (not immediate, I'm sure, but complaints aren't
going to be ignored, and *may* affect future plans, if we 
hear similar things from more than one person/site).

All of the above is, as usual, my personal opinion, not SGI's.

Then not murdering would have no moral significance, since there
would be nothing voluntary about it.

You are starting to get the point.   Mimicry is not necessarily the 
same as the action being imitated.   A Parrot saying "Pretty Polly" 
isn't necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of Polly.

See above.

They do.   I and other posters have given you many examples of exactly
this, but you seem to have a very short memory.

I'm saying:

It's right there in the posting you are replying to.

[Lots of trippy stuff deleted]

Wow...  What is this guy smoking and WHERE can I GET SOME?

Dan

	Is the so-called material world "outside" the Kingdom of God?
	
	Aha, animals are inferior, and humans are superior.
	Huh?

	[Isn't the desire to be superior so "overwhelming?"]
	[that humans constantly "put down" even innocent animals.]
	
---raj

Well thank you dennis for your as usual highly detailed and informative 
posting.   

The question i have about the proton, is  could it be  handled at
one of KSC's spare pads, without major  malfunction,  or could it be
handled at kourou  or Vandenberg?   

Now if it uses storables,  then  how long would it take for the russians
to equip something at cape york?

If  Proton were launched from a western site,  how would it compare to the
T4/centaur?   As i see it, it should lift  very close to the T4.

I downloaded an image of the earth re-constructed from elevation data taken
at 1/2 degree increments. The author (not me) wrote some c-code (included)
that read in the data file and generated b&w and pseudo color images. They
work very well and are not incumbered by copyright. They are at an aminet
site near you called earth.lha in the amiga/pix/misc area...

I refer you to the included docs for the details on how the author (sorry, I
forget his name) created these images. The raw data is not included.

-- 
	David

	David M. Ingebretsen
	Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
	dingebre@thunder.sim.es.com

(Frank DeCenso)

How incredibly fucking stupid.  Of *course* the text is referring to the city
itself (buildings, bricks, mortar, etc.)  Otherwise it makes no sense to
refer to the future of Tyre as being reduced to nothing but a _place_ to spread 
fishing nets.

Long time, no see.

			Andreas

-- 

		Andreas - Siperian Sirri   Siberian Stint

Actually, there is one condemnation of lesbian acts in the Bible, Romans
1:26.

I think. In

There are plenty who don't read the Bible.
Or pray for that matter.

Moscow Scientific Inductrial Association "Spectrum" offer
       VIDEOSCAN vision system for PC/AT,wich include software and set of
       controllers.

                     SOFTWARE

            For support VIDEOSCAN family program kit was developed. Kit
       includes more then 200 different functions for image processing.
            Kit works in the interactive regime, and has include Help for
       non professional users.
            There are next possibility:
       - input frame by any board of VIDEOSCAN family;
       - read - white image to - from disk;
       - print image on the printer;
       - makes arithmetic with 2 frames;
       - filter image;
       - work with gistogramme;
       - edit image.
       - include users exe modules.

                     CONTROLLER VS9

       The function of VS-9 controller is to load TV-images into  PC/AT.
       VS-9 controller allows one to load a fragment of the TV-frame from
       a field of 724x600 pixels.
       The clock rate is 14,7 MHz when loading an image with 512 pixel in
       the line and 7,4 MHz when loading a 256 pixels image. This
       provides the equal pixel size of input image in both horizontal
       and vertical directions.
       The number of gray levels in any input modes is 256.
       Video signal capture time - 2.5s.

                     CONTROLLER VS52

       The purpose of the controller is to enter the TV images into a IBM
       PC AT or any other machine of that type. The controller was
       created on the base of modern elements, including user
       programmable gate arrays.
       The controller allows to digitize a input signal with different
       resolutions. Its flexible architecture makes possible to change
       technical parameters. Instead of TV signal one can process any
       other analog signal (including signals from slow-speed scanning
       devices).
       The controller has the following technical characteristics:
       - memory volume - from 256 K to 2 Mb ;
       - resolution when working with standard video signal - from 64x64
       to 1024x512 pixels ;
       - resolution when working in slow input regime - up to 2048x1024
       pixels;
       - video signal capture time - 40 ms.
       - maximum size of a screen when memory volume is 2Mb - 2048x1024
       pixels ;
       - number of gray level - 256 ;
       - clock rate for input - up to 30 MHz ;
       - 4 input video multiplexer ;
       - input/output lookup table (LUT);
       - possibility to realize "scroll" and "zoom";

       - 8 lines for external synchronization (an input using external
       controlling signal) ;
       - electronic adjustment of black and white reference for analog -
       digital converter;
       - possibility output image to the color RGB monitor.
       One can change all listed above functions and parameters of the
       controller by reprogramming it.

              IMAGE PROCESSOR VS100

Exactly. Some of the SPACE:1999 effects remain first-rate even today. 
 
Later on, the Andersons tried to shed their reputation as creators of some
of the worst pseudo-scientific shows in TV history by flying "Into Infinity."
This was a one-off thing done as part of BBC's "educational SF" series "The
Day After Tomorrow." The Anderson episode dealt with a spaceship capable of
reaching the speed of light ("lightship Altares"), the four-man crew eventually 
journeyed into a black hole and ended up on the far side of the galaxy (I
think). I saw this as a 9-year-old back in 1976 and liked it very much, but
then again I was a fan of SPACE:1999 so I guess I was easily satisfied in those
days:-)
---
Does anyone know if "Into Infinity" has been released on video? I have some
SPACE:1999 shows on VHS and know that Thunderbirds etc. also are available in
England.

: I'm not sure if this is the correct place to ask this question.  If not,
: please forgive me and point me in the right direction.

: Does anybody know of a program that converts .GIF files to .BMP files
: and if so, where can I ftp it from?  Any help would be greatly 
: appreciated.

: Please respond via e-mail as I do not read this group very often.

: Thanks...Scott

Sorry Scott, if you post it here, you can read it here.  There is a shareware
program available via anonymous FTP that will suit your needs.  You'll find 
it at OAK.OAKLAND.EDU  in the subdirectory pub/msdos/graphics.  The file is
called "GRFWK61T.ZIP."

: I have 19 (2 MB worth!) uuencode'd GIF images contain charts outlining
: one of the many alternative Space Station designs being considered in
: Crystal City.  [...]

I just posted the GIF files out for anonymous FTP on server ics.uci.edu.
You can retrieve them from:
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode01.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode02.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode03.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode04.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode05.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode06.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode07.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode08.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode09.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode10.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode11.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode12.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode13.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode14.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode15.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode16.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode17.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geodeA.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geodeB.gif

The last two are scanned color photos; the others are scanned briefing
charts.

These will be deleted by the ics.uci.edu system manager in a few days,
so now's the time to grab them if you're interested.  Sorry it took
me so long to get these out, but I was trying for the Ames server,
but it's out of space.

Again, you missed Jesus's point.  If you read the surrounding passages
you would understand what Jesus means by "life in the world."  But
as is, you bumbled around, asserted your standard axiom that the Bible is bunk,
and came up with the wrong idea.  Also, you do not know exactly
what Jesus means by eternal life.  

Brian K., do you expect to jump in the middle of the quantum mechanics
book and understand Hermite polynomials having not read the surrounding
material?  Why do you such with the Bible?  For an idea what Jesus
means by the world, look up references to it in your concordance.  For
a good description, the whole Book of Ecclesiastes is game.  For 
eternal life, check out John 17:3, John 3:15-16.  You will find that
eternal life is quite different than what you think.  Eternal life
starts NOW--an infinitely high quality of life living in fellowship
with God.

If my diety exists, you would not just cease to exist.  Jesus talks of
hell in Luke 16:19-31.  

The truth is, is that it is not some sort of magic spell.  The truth
is is that you do not understand it, and enjoy not understanding it.

Wrong again.  Christianity is supposed to be relationship.  You
do not even know what Christianity is and you are arguing against
it.

Sorry but I forgot this ps.

Right now my sight is getting news about two weeks behind so it's 
kind of necessary (to me) that any responses be sent to me directly.

TEXT 45

                        trai-gunya-visaya veda
                        nistrai-gunyo bhavarjuna
                     nirdvandvo nitya-sattva-stho
                          niryoga-ksema atmavan
  
trai-gunya--pertaining to the three modes of material nature;
visayah--on the subject matter; vedah--Vedic literatures;
nistrai-gunyah--transcendental to the three modes of material nature;
bhava--be; arjuna--O Arjuna; nirdvandvah--without duality;
nitya-sattva-sthah--in a pure state of spiritual existence;
niryoga-ksemah--free from ideas of gain and protection;
atma-van--established in the self.
    
                              TRANSLATION

 The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material
nature. O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free
from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be
established in the self.
  
                                PURPORT

 All material activities involve actions and reactions in the three
modes of material nature. They are meant for fruitive results, which
cause bondage in the material world. The Vedas deal mostly with fruitive
activities to gradually elevate the general public from the field of
sense gratification to a position on the transcendental plane. Arjuna,
as a student and friend of Lord Krsna, is advised to raise himself to
the transcendental position of Vedanta philosophy where, in the
beginning, there is brahma-jijnasa, or questions on the supreme
transcendence. All the living entities who are in the material world are
struggling very hard for existence. For them the Lord, after creation of
the material world, gave the Vedic wisdom advising how to live and get
rid of the material entanglement. When the activities for sense
gratification, namely the karma-kanda chapter, are finished, then the
chance for spiritual realization is offered in the form of the
Upanisads, which are part of different Vedas, as the Bhagavad-gita is a
part of the fifth Veda, namely the Mahabharata. The Upanisads mark the
beginning of transcendental life.

 As long as the material body exists, there are actions and reactions in
the material modes. One has to learn tolerance in the face of dualities
such as happiness and distress, or cold and warmth, and by tolerating
such dualities become free from anxieties regarding gain and loss. This
transcendental position is achieved in full Krsna consciousness when one
is fully dependent on the good will of Krsna.

Bhagavad-Gita As It is
Books of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

       ---------------------------------------------------------
      |                Don't forget to chant:                   |
      |                                                         |
      |  Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare   |
      |       Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare          |
      |                                                         |
      |    Kalki's Infoline BBS Aiken, South Carolina, USA      |
      |          (system@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us)           |

From: Gene Wright <gene@theporch.raider.net>

I'll say!  Imagine that there were a couple groups up there, maybe landing
a few weeks apart.  The year-mark starts coming on for the first group.
Isn't a billion pretty good incentive to take a shot at a potential
winner?  "Yeah, that's a shame that Team A's life support gave out
so close to the deadline.  Thanks for the billion."

On the other hand, if Apollo cost ~25billion, for a few days or weeks
in space, in 1970 dollars, then won't the reward have to be a lot more
than only 1 billion to get any takers?

-Tommy Mac

	I think this is a misnomer.

	But, this just shows then that painful execution is not considered 
"cruel" and unusual punishment. This shows that "cruel" as used in the 
constitution does NOT refer to whether or not the punishment causes physical 
pain.
	Rather, it must be a different meaning.

---  

Hi,
  See Roger Grywalski's response to :

Re: Help on network visualization

in comp.graphics.visualization.

Amongst other things, it does exactly this!

Hmmm. I seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record-
players and radios in the 1960s wasn't better performance but lower
per-unit cost than vacuum-tube systems.

	Mind you, my father was a vacuum-tube fan in the 60s (Switched
to solid-state in the mid-seventies and then abruptly died; no doubt
there's a lesson in that) and his account could have been biased.

Your last remark is a contradiction, but I'll let that pass.

I was addressing the notion of the Great Commission, which
you deleted in order to provide us with dull little homilies.
Thank you, Bing Crosby.  Now you go right on back to sleep
and mommy and daddy will tuck you in later.

Oh, and how convenient his bible must have been to Michael
Griffin, how convenient his Christianity.  "Well, I'll just
skip the bit about not murdering people and loving the sinner
and hating the sin and all that other stuff for now and
concentrate on the part where it says that if someone is doing
something wrong, you should shoot him in the back several times
as he tries to hobble away on his crutches."

I'll leave the "convert or die" program of the missionaries and
their military escorts in the Americas for Nadja to explain as
she knows much more about it than I.

Must be awfully convenient, by the way, to offer platitudes
as you have done, David, rather than addressing the arguments.

Why use a ground launch pad. It is entirely posible to launch from altitude.
This was what the Shuttle was originally intended to do! It might be seriously
cheaper. 

Also, what about bio-engineered CO2 absorbing plants instead of many LOX bottles?
Stick 'em in a lunar cave and put an airlock on the door.

NASA Headquarters distributed the following press
release today (4/6). I've typed it in verbatim, for you
folks to chew over. Many of the topics recently
discussed on sci.space are covered in this.

Gibbons Outlines Space Station Redesign Guidance

Dr. John H. Gibbons, Director, Office of Science and
Technology Policy, outlined to the members-designate of
the Advisory Committee on the Redesign of the Space
Station on April 3, three budget options as guidance to
the committee in their deliberations on the redesign of
the space station.

A low option of $5 billion, a mid-range option of $7
billion and a high option of $9 billion will be
considered by the committee. Each option would cover
the total expenditures for space station from fiscal
year 1994 through 1998 and would include funds for
development, operations, utilization, Shuttle
integration, facilities, research operations support,
transition cost and also must include adequate program
reserves to insure program implementation within the
available funds.

Over the next 5 years, $4 billion is reserved within
the NASA budget for the President's new technology
investment. As a result, station options above $7
billion must be accompanied by offsetting reductions in
the rest of the NASA budget.  For example, a space
station option of $9 billion would require $2 billion
in offsets from the NASA budget over the next 5 years.

Gibbons presented the information at an organizational
session of the advisory committee. Generally, the
members-designate focused upon administrative topics
and used the session to get acquainted. They also
received a legal and ethics briefing and an orientation
on the process the Station Redesign Team is following
to develop options for the advisory committee to
consider.

Gibbons also announced that the United States and its
international partners -- the Europeans, Japanese, and
Canadians -- have decided, after consultation, to give
"full consideration" to use of Russian assets in the
course of the space station redesign process.

To that end, the Russians will be asked to participate
in the redesign effort on an as-needed consulting
basis, so that the redesign team can make use of their
expertise in assessing the capabilities of MIR and the
possible use of MIR and other Russian capabilities and
systems. The U.S. and international partners hope to
benefit from the expertise of the Russian participants
in assessing Russian systems and technology. The
overall goal of the redesign effort is to develop
options for reducing station costs while preserving key
research and exploration capabilities. Careful
integration of Russian assets could be a key factor in
achieving that goal.

Gibbons reiterated that, "President Clinton is
committed to the redesigned space station and to making
every effort to preserve the science, the technology
and the jobs that the space station program represents.
However, he also is committed to a space station that
is well managed and one that does not consume the
national resources which should be used to invest in
the future of this industry and this nation."

I am looking for some information about 3D animation stations that
are currently on the market.  The price of the station can be from 5K-20K, 
but no more than $20,000.00.  Type of workstation doesnt matter (PC, MAC, 
SGI etc..) .  If you use or have bought/looked at one or can suggest your
dream machine, then please mail me your configurations.  I need the following.

	1. Type of station (PC, MAC etc.. )
	2. Expandibilty of the machine.
	3. Software that can run on it
	4. VTR Controller and/or VTR deck model/name.
	5. Vendors names and numbers.

That's the entire point!

Yes!

Natural morality is a morality that developed naturally.

Huh?

The first means that some aspect of reality contains objective values.
The second means that values are a reference to some preference of the
individual.  In the first case, it is possible that some future discovery
might invalidate certain views re what objective values are.

--

That happens to be a subjective example that the people of the
US would happen to agree on.  Continue to move the price up; 
at some point a few people would accept then more then more until 
probably all would accept at a high enough number.

Endpoints of a subjective scale are not the given homes of 
objective viewpoints.

How about transferring control to a non-profit organisation that is
able to accept donations to keep craft operational.

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to ask this question.  If not,
please forgive me and point me in the right direction.

Does anybody know of a program that converts .GIF files to .BMP files
and if so, where can I ftp it from?  Any help would be greatly 
appreciated.

Please respond via e-mail as I do not read this group very often.

I don't think the Book of Mormon was supposedly translated from Biblical 
Hebrew.  I've read that "prophet Joseph Smith" traslated the gold tablets 
from some sort of Egyptian-ish language.  
Former Mormons, PLEASE post.

Why didn't you create 8 grey-level images, and display them for
1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128... time slices?

This requires the same total exposure time, and the same precision in
timing, but drastically reduces the image-preparation time, no?

Be warned, it is not my job to convert you.  That is the job of
the Holy Spirit.  And I, frankly, make a lousy one.  I am only
here to testify.  Your conversion is between you and God.  I am
"out of the loop".  If you decide to follow Jesus, of which I
indeed would be estatic, then all the glory be to God.

Tonigth a TV journal here in Brasil announced that an object,
beyond Pluto's orbit, was found by an observatory at Hawaii. They
named the object Karla.

	The program said the object wasn't a gaseous giant planet, and
should be composed by rocks and ices.

	Can someone confirm these information? Could this object be a
new planet or a Kuiper object?

	Thanks in advance.

	Francisco.

Hi.

The RTrace ray tracer supports 3D text as a primitive, not collections of
spheres, cylinders and so on...
The 3D chars are made of lines and splines that are extruded...

Please have a look at asterix.inescn.pt [192.35.246.17] in directory
pub/RTrace.
In pub/RTrace/tmp there are some demo images with high quality text.
All of them are called Text?.jpg (JPEG encoded). See them first and then
tell me what you think.

My online Bible is on a CD, but I don't own a CD-ROM system for the
time being, so I can't search for the famous cite where Jesus explicitly
states that he didn't want to break existing (Jewish) laws. In other
words technically speaking Christians should use Saturday and not Sunday
as their holy day, if they want to conform to the teachings of Jesus.

Cheers,
Kent

Hi ... Recently I found XV for MS-DOS in a subdirectory of GNU-CC (GNUISH). I 
use frequently XV on a Sun Spark Station 1 and I never had problems, but when I
start it on my computer with -h option, it display the help menu and when I
start it with a GIF-File my Hard disk turns 2 or 3 seconds and the prompt come
back.

My computer is a little 386/25 with copro, 4 Mega rams, Tseng 4000 (1M) running
MS-DOS 5.0 with HIMEM.SYS and no EMM386.SYS. I had the GO32.EXE too... but no
driver who run with it.

Do somenone know the solution to run XV ??? any help would be apprecied..
		
	Thanx in advance !!!! 
             
-- 
*								    *
*  Suisse 							    *
*								    *

Tony   

I appreciate the narrow-mindedness of the view expressed in
the text you quoted.  I also appreciate your being amused
by such determined ignorance.  Without taking anything away
from your mirth, I want to say that these views sadden me.
I can only hope that that sort of narrow-mindedness will
die with the generations that have promoted it.  Teach 
your children well.

<wet blanket mode off>

Pax.

John

When I first saw this, I thought for a second that it was a headline from
The Star about the pliers found in the SRB recently.

Y'know, sometimes they have wire-cutters built in :-)

-Tommy Mac

I lived in Tokyo for a year and a half, and one of the many reasons why
I intend to go back indefinitely is the freedom one enjoys when one can
walk anywhere (and I mean *anywhere*) at any time of day or night and not
feel uneasy, even if one's from an ethnic minority as I was.

Clues for Bobby (why do I bother?): (i) Tokyo is a city, and inner Tokyo
is an inner city; (ii) there is a negligible level of violent crime, and
a street murder will be a lead item on *national* TV news; (iii) the
population is almost universally atheistic.

Next time I go for a stroll around Beirut at night, I'll let you know how
it compares.

Cheers

Simon

Bill Gripp writes

ok, but didn't Jesus figure somewhere into their beliefs? Anyway, my
original question regarding christians and weaponry still stands. 

Good I had a bad feeling about this problem because of a special case
with no solution that worried me.

Four coplanar points in the shape of a square have no unique sphere 
that they are on the surface of.
Similarly 4 colinear point have no finite sized sphere that they are on the
surface of.

These algorithms being geometrical designed rather than algebraically design
meet these problems neatly.

When determining which plane the 3 points are on if they are colinear
the algorithm should afil or return infinite R.
When intersecting the two lines there are 2 possibilities
they are the same line  (the 4 points were on a planar circle)
they are different lines but parallel. There is a sphere of in radius.

This last case can be achieved with 3 colinier points and any 4th point
by taking the 4th point and pairs of the first 3 parallel lines will be produced

it can also be achieved by

If all 4 points are coplanar but are not on one circle. 

It seems to me that the algorithm only fails when the 4 points are coplanar.
The algorithm always fails when the points are coplanar.
(4 points being colinear => coplanar)

Testing if the 4th point is coplanar when the plane of the first 3 points
has been found is trivial.

Bill, I have taken the time to explain that biblical scholars consider the
Josephus reference to be an early Christian insert.  By biblical scholar I mean
an expert who, in the course of his or her research, is willing to let the
chips fall where they may.  This excludes literalists, who may otherwise be
defined as biblical apologists.  They find what they want to find.  They are
not trustworthy by scholarly standards (and others).

Why an insert?  Read it - I have, a number of times.  The passage is glaringly
out of context, and Josephus, a superb writer, had no such problem elsewhere 
in his work.  The passage has *nothing* to do with the subject matter in which 
it lies.  It suddenly appears and then just as quickly disappears.

Until you can demonstrate how and why the scholarly community is wrong about
the Josephus insert, your "proof" is meaningless and it should not be repeated
here.  What's more, even if Josephus happened to be legitimate, it would "prove"
nothing.  Scholars speak of the "weight of evidence."  Far more independent
evidence would be required to validate your claim.  Until forthcoming, your
belief is based on faith.  That's OK, but you exceed your rights when you pass
faith off as fact.

As for the gospels, there are parallels, but there are also glaring
inconsistencies and contradictions.  Shouldn't a perfect canon be perfect? 
Shouldn't there be absolutely no room for debate?  I suggest you read _Gospel 
Fictions_ by Randel Helms, and _The Unauthorized Version_ by Robin Fox (for 
Herb Huston, no known kinship or familial relationship, but we do indeed share 
an evolutionary ancestry).

The fact that there are inconsistencies, gaps and contradictions does not deny
your position.  On the other hand, neither do the gospels "prove" your faith. 
Independent evidence is necessary, and I know of none (which we have already
discussed, and so far you have not provided any).  Until then, its faith. 
Moreover, you have committed a fundamental error in logic.  You have attempted
to "prove" your claim with that which you want to prove.  Its no different than
saying "I am right because I say so."  

Your logic is full of circles.  It reminds me a bit of the 1910 Presbyterian 
General Assembly.  The assembly defined five fundamentals (this is where
"fundamentalist" came from) of orthodox Protestant Christianity, to wit: 1)
Jesus performed miracles, 2) Jesus was born of a virgin, 3) Jesus was bodily
resurrected, 4) Jesus' crucifixion atoned for human sin, and - here is the
clincher - 5) the bible is the inerrant word of God.  Presbyterians construe
"inerrant" broadly as spritually inerrant.  Fundamentalists take the
first four as literally true, and then validate them with a literally inerrant
bible, which contains the first four, and which is the only thing known to 
contain the first four.  

Smoke and mirrors and wands and hand waving if ever there was!

Its faith, Bill.  You don't have any more or better truths than anyone else. 
Whatever works for you.  Just don't foist it on others. 

Regards,

This notice will be posted weekly in sci.space, sci.astro, and
sci.space.shuttle.

    The Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) list for sci.space and sci.astro is
posted approximately monthly. It also covers many questions that come up on
sci.space.shuttle (for shuttle launch dates, see below).

    The FAQ is posted with a long expiration date, so a copy may be in your
news spool directory (look at old articles in sci.space). If not, here are
two ways to get a copy without waiting for the next posting:

    (1) If your machine is on the Internet, it can be obtained by anonymous
FTP from the SPACE archive at ames.arc.nasa.gov (128.102.18.3) in directory
pub/SPACE/FAQ.

    (2) Otherwise, send email to 'archive-server@ames.arc.nasa.gov'
containing the single line:

help

    The archive server will return directions on how to use it. To get an
index of files in the FAQ directory, send email containing the lines:

send space FAQ/Index
send space FAQ/faq1

    Use these files as a guide to which other files to retrieve to answer
your questions.

    Shuttle launch dates are posted by Ken Hollis periodically in
sci.space.shuttle. A copy of his manifest is now available in the Ames
archive in pub/SPACE/FAQ/manifest and may be requested from the email
archive-server with 'send space FAQ/manifest'. Please get this document
instead of posting requests for information on launches and landings.

I disagree with these.  What society thinks should be irrelevant.  What the
individual decides is all that is important.

I think this is fairly obvious

Generally by what they "feel" is right, which is the most idiotic policy I can
think of.

By thinking for ourselves.

This isn't true.  Many people are forced to use the "automobile system."
I certainly don't use it by choice.  If there were other ways of getting
around, I'd do it.

But I think that the Court system has been refined--over hundreds of
years in the US, Britain, and other countries.  We have tried to make
it as fair as possible.  Can it be made better (without removing the
death penalty)?  Besides, life imprisonment sounds like a fatal punishment
to me.

Hi to all out there.  We have this problem, and I'm not certain I'm solving it
in the correct way.  I was wondering if anyone can shed light on this, or point
me in the right place to look...

We have an X-ray imaging camera and a metallic tube with a cylindrical hole
passing through it at a right angle to the tube's axis:

                                                          |
                                     ||                   [ image
                                                          |
  X-ray source ]                     ||                   | screen
                            metallic || tube              |
                                     ||                   |
                                                          |

We know source--screen centre distance, radius of the tube, radius of the hole.

We do some calculations based on the image of the hole on the screen.  However,
the calculations are mathematically highly complex, and must assume that the
object's hole projects an image (resembling an ellipse if the tube is not
parallel to the screen) in the centre of the screen.  However, it is unlikely
that the object is placed so conveniently.  

Firstly, we must transform the major and minor axis of the ellipse.  I cannot
know what the angle between the tube and screen is.  Do I have to assume that
they are parallel to do the transformation?  How do I do this transformation?

Secondly, there is a distortion of the image due to the screen being planar
(the source--screen distance increases as we move away from the centre of the
screen).  How can I compensate the ellipse's axis for this image distortion?

So, please can anyone give us a few pointers here?  How do we transform the
image so it appears as it would if it were in the centre of the screen, and how
do I deal with distortion due to the shape of the screen?

We'd appreciate any help, either posted or emailed.

Thanks in advance, Simon.

Sure. Yes, I did. You see I don't think that rape and murder should
be dealt with lightly. You, being so interested in leniency for
leniency's sake, apparently think that people should simply be
told the "did a _bad_ thing."

Misjudgments should be avoided as much as possible.
I suspect that it's pretty unlikely that, given my requirement
of repeated offenses, that misjudgments are very likely.

Really? Care to give chapter and verse? We could discuss it.

Again, not all of the Orient follows the Qur'an. So you'll have to do
better than that.

Sorry, you haven't "put out" enough.

This is an argument for why _you_ don't like religions that suppress
sex. A such it's an irrelevant argument.

If you'd like to generalize it to an objective statement then 
fine. My response is then: you have given no reason for your statement
that sex is not the business of religion (one of your "arguments").

The urge for sex in adolescents is not so strong that any overly strong
measures are required to suppress it. If the urge to have sex is so
strong in an adult then that adult can make a commensurate effort to
find a marriage partner.

Just because the wording is elsewhere does not mean they didn't spend
much time on the wording.

People can be described as cruel in this way, but punishments cannot.

[deletia]

      In the deletions somewhere, it mentioned something about chopping
off of hands being a punishment for theft in Saudi Arabia. Assuming this
is so (I wouldn't know), and assuming it is done by people fitting your
requirement for "muslim" (which I find highly likely), then would you
please try to convince Bobby Mozumder that muslims chop people's hands
off?

      Come back when you've succeeded.

Which distance? The distance between one point (t = ti) on the first curve
and a point on the other curve with same parameter (u = ti)?

I'm having trouble receiving News at the moment due to an overloaded
News server. I think that I can post out reasonably quickly, though.

I'm in a couple of threads at the moment which may be pending replies.
If anyone wants a reply from me over something I've posted then I
suggest sending an e-mail copy of the point to me so that I can reply by
News.

This is one way to shut me up!!

Cheers,

David.

---

(Pleading mode on)

Please!  I'm begging you!  Quit confusing religious groups, and stop
making generalizations!  I'm a Protestant!  I'm an evangelical!  I don't
believe that my way is the only way!  I'm not a "creation scientist"!  I
don't think that homosexuals should be hung by their toenails!  

If you want to discuss bible thumpers, you would be better off singling
out (and making obtuse generalizations about) Fundamentalists.  If you
compared the actions of Presbyterians or Methodists with those of Southern 
Baptists, you would think that they were different religions!

Please, prejudice is about thinking that all people of a group are the
same, so please don't write off all Protestants or all evangelicals!

(Pleading mode off.)

God.......I wish I could get ahold of all the Thomas Stories......

Please, please don't make Barney to a modern martyr/saviour mythical
figure. I detest this being, and if humans will create a religion in his
name, then life will be unbearable :-).

Cheers,
Kent

sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes...

Which Jews KS? 

(ex. as a people, as a language, religiously, politically, or...) 

Do you mean those Jews who are God's chosen?

{And Malcolm, please, if you will, set your word wrap at 75 or less 
to avoid clutter?}

Yeah, Corel Draw and WordPerfect Presentations pretty limited here, too.
	Since there's no (not really) such thing as a decent raster to
vector conversion program, this "tracing" technique is about it.  Simple
stuff, like b&w logos, etc. do pretty well, while more complicated stuff
goes haywire.  I suspect (even though I don't write code) that a good
bitmapped to vector conversion program would probably be as big as most
of these application softwares we're using -- but even so, how come one
hasn't been written? (to my knowledge).  I mean, even Hijaak, one of the
commercial industry standards of file conversion, hasn't attempted it yet.

I'm planning to buy a new VLB/EISA system with a good graphic performance.
So far I looked at the ATI GUP VLB as my favorite graphics-card. But 
recently I heard something about a new card from  Miro. It was the Miro
Crystal 24s with 3 MB and True Color support up to 1024x768. It costs just a
little more than the ATI. So, can't decide which one matches better my needs.
Any technical references and performance comparisons (especially from the
Miro card) would be greatly appreciated.

-Peter-

E-Mail : kohut1@urz.unibas.ch

of

A transporter operator!?!?  That better be one important transport.  Usually  
it is a nameless ensign who does the job.  For such a guest appearance I would  
have expected a more visible/meaningful role.

---

Hello again netters,
	I finally received the information about Imagine for the PC.  They are presently shipping Version 2.0 of the software and will release Version 3.0 in the first quarter of 1993 (or so they say).  The upgrade from 2.0 to 3.0 is $100.00.  To purchase Imagine 2.0, it costs $495.00 or if you are upgrading from another eligible (call them for info) modeler, it is only $200.00 plus shipping & handling.   It requires a PC with 4 Megs a Math Coprocessor, and Dos 5.0 or up and a Microsoft Mouse and SVGA card.
	Thanks for all your replies about the product.  I have received many contrasting replies, but once I scrounge the money together, I think I will take the plunge.  Thanks again.
	Here is the info for Impulse if you want to find out more or get the sheet they sent.
	Impulse Inc.
	8416 Xerxes Avenue North
	Minneapolis, MN 55444
	1-800-328-0184

Thanks again for all your replies.
Scott
-- 
Scott Snowiss
sasst11+@.pitt.edu

INteresting question about Galileo.

Galileo's HGA  is stuck.   

The HGA was left closed,  because galileo  had a venus flyby.

If the HGA were pointed att he sun,  near venus,  it would
cook the foci elements.

question:  WHy couldn't Galileo's  course manuevers have been
designed such that the HGA  did not ever do a sun point.?

After all,  it would normally be aimed at earth anyway?

or would it be that an emergency situation i.e. spacecraft safing
and seek might have caused an HGA sun point?

In <lsjc8cINNmc1@saltillo.cs.utexas.edu> turpin@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin)

I regard love as no more or less "benign" than any other Christian does.
You are merely expressing "approval" of the consequences I find therein.
Which says more about our politics and cultural trappings than about my
(or any) religion.  "Love" is a highly ambiguous word, of which Christians
can write both the "gentle" words Paul uses of it in 1 Corinthians -- in
a passage that even the "conservatives" will quote at you :-) -- and the
words of T. S. Eliot in his Pentacost Hymn, "Love is the unfamiliar Name
that wove the intolerable shirt of flame ..."

This is in any case rather to the side of what I was attempting to raise
in my note, as will become more evident below.

blechhh.  I think you are misreading me, rather seriously.  Though,
given my principle that one CANNOT force one's own notion of "sin" on
another, and my unshakeable "disestablishmentarianism", Russel Turpin
and others (believers and unbelievers alike) are under no threat of my
legislating my own understanding of Christian love.

You misread.  I can do (and have repeatedly done) a complete bill of
accusation against the Inquisition by exhibiting in as thorough a form
as anyone might want a demonstration of the harm it has done to human
beings (in the first place) and to respect for (let alone love of) "God"
in near succession.  Please go back to my quoted words above:

The "possibility that always exists" is that I (or, to revert to proper
time sequence, my predecessors over the last several centuries) could
persuade "Christian B" of my case that the Inquisition *does* indeed
constitute an egregious violation of the Law of Love.  I must also note
that the majority of Christians HAVE been so persuaded.  By Christian
argumentation, as well as by secular [both Christian and non-Christian]
prohibitions.

What Mr. Turpin alludes to is a trickier point:

	A.  I demonstrate the human pain and violation of love involved
	    in the Inquisition.

	B.  The Inquisitor responds that Mother Church must, however
	    painful this *seems*, "discipline" her children for their
	    own good -- in this case the salvation of their souls (or
	    if the tortured heretic will not recant, than by bad example
	    "deterring" others from the same loss-of-soul.)

	A.  I point out that this "justification" of a failure in love
	    depends on a highly speculative construal of texts and of
	    philosophical assertions that are quite undemonstrable.

	B.  Burns me at the stake.

My rhetoric has failed, but the point I am making is sustained.  What is
going on here has a *lot* to do with "cultural baggage."  In this case,
the baggage includes a (nearly universal, and absolutely secular) belief
that an accused person must prove innocence and that testimony is most
believable if taken under torture.  The elimination of Inqisitorial
practice (in those places where it *has* been eliminated, or at least
greatly reduced) has very little, if anything, to do with the discussion
of sin in the exchange between A and B.

Mr. Turpin is pointing out that, if I am A versus the Grand Inquisitor's B,
then my persuasion is not very likely to work.  I know this; and in what-
ever personal agony, I consign the issue to God and my ghostly defense
attorney.  So, "one possibility" fails in this case -- as it will fail in
may others.  At the other extreme, the "persuasion" will succeed when it
properly SHOULD not, if it entails mistaken assumptions I share with the
Inquisitor.  And that is potentially an even more troubling case, in that
many of the victims of Inquisition will have "accepted" that they were in
fact sinful (in such random cases as they may actually have been guilty
of charges brought against them.)

The point is that the "persuasion" breaks down when the parties do NOT
share enough to agree on all the cultural baggage -- and given the main
thrust of the Inquisition, against "heresy", it is *bound* to break down
in precisely the "worst" cases.  The "conservative" (I don't think that
is the right word, BTW) will take refuge in what I attribute to B above,
that he is "justified" in causing harm because he *thinks* that works to
a "greater good."  But this is a violent and extravagant REFUSAL to follow
the gospel, as if one's theories about "sin" entitled one to cast aside
Jesus' words on dealing with sinners (cf. Matthew 5:39ff).

I am a "radical" Christian *only* in that I take the gospel seriously.

Well, the whole *point* of making these the "base" commandments is that
they *aren't* reducible to rules.  A set of rules is a moral code or a
law code or an algorithm for acting.  Such things can be very helpful
to individuals or societies -- but not if they are used *instead* of a
personal involvement in and responsibility for one's actions.  The Great
Commandment is, more than anything else, a call to act *as if you were
God and accepting ultimate responsibility* in your every action.  A
demand that I, like most, would rather *not* hear, but it keeps popping
up nonetheless (along with the reassurance that it is more important
that I be open to trying this, than succeeding at it).  "Conservatives"
may twist this "act as if you were God" to mean "lay down rules for other
people and be as nasty to them as possible if they don't keep YOUR rules."
They are so insistent (and obvious) about this that they have convinced a
lot of people (who rightly reject the whole concept!) that such idiocy
IS how God acts.  That, after all, is the standard accusation "against
God" by the atheists here and elsewhere.  That the "conservatives" have
confused THEIR manipulative, hoop-jumping notions of coercing other
people with the Nature of God is almost the entire content of standard
American atheism -- and I quite agree with it on this point.

And different bodies of Christians have, from the beginning, urged
*different* "ethical systems" (or in some cases, none).  As a result,
it is bizarre to identify any one of these systems, however popular
(or infamous) with Christianity.  Christianity DOES NOT HAVE A TORAH.
It does not have a QU'RAN.  Specifically Christian scripture has very
little, if anything, in the way of "commandments" -- so little that
the "Christians" who desperately *want* commandments go "mining" for
them with almost no support (and thus almost no obvious limitation :-))
for their efforts.  The one, single, thing in the gospels which Jesus
specifically "gives" as "a commandment" to us is "love one another."

	[I will be expanding on this point in a reply to Paul Hudson
	 that I hope to get to in a day or so -- it is quite true that
	 SOME Christians infer LOTS of commandments from the NT; I'll
	 point out what has to be going on in these inferences, and why
	 there is a huge amount of "cultural baggage" involved.]

You are quite right that this is "goo" if one is looking for an ethical
system.

But why should anyone BE looking for an ethical system, since our
society is eager to hand us one or more no matter what we do?  It
may be that we need a principle for the CRITIQUE of ethical systems
-- in which case I will profer the _agapate allelou_ once again.

I think you are begging the question. Why don't I and the (myriads
of) other Christians like me tell you something about Christianity?
[Nor is this very new in Christianity -- you might want to look up
the origins and fundamental doctrines of the Quakers, from the 17th
century onwards, and they are not at all the first to understand the
gospel in a manner that is congenial to my case.]

It appears that Walla Walla College will fill the same role in alt.atheist
that Allegheny College fills in alt.fan.dan-quayle.

Converts to xtianity have this tendency to excessively darken their
pre-xtian past, frequently falsely.  Anyone who embarks on an
effort to "destroy" xtianity is suffering from deep megalomania, a
defect which is not cured by religious conversion.

Different perspective?  DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE??  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

(sigh!)  Perhaps Big J was just mistaken about some of his claims.
Perhaps he was normally insightful, but had a few off days.  Perhaps
many (most?) of the statements attributed to Jesus were not made by
him, but were put into his mouth by later authors.  Other possibilities
abound.  Surely, someone seriously examining this question could
come up with a decent list of possible alternatives, unless the task
is not serious examination of the question (much less "destroying"
xtianity) but rather religious salesmanship.

How many Germans died for Nazism?  How many Russians died in the name
of the proletarian dictatorship?  How many Americans died to make the
world safe for "democracy".  What a silly question!

Is everyone who performs a healing = God?

It's probably hard to "draw" an entire nation to you unless you 
are crazy.

Anyone who is convinced by this laughable logic deserves
to be a xtian.

Thanks to whoever posted this wonderful parody of people who post without 
reading the FAQ!  I was laughing for a good 5 minutes.  Were there any 
parts of the FAQ that weren't mentioned?  I think there might have been one
or two...

Please don't tell me this wasn't a joke.  I'm not ready to hear that yet...

No, and Im especially unhappy that these 70+ people died in an assault
on private property with government armored vehicles.

I am also unhappy (or actually, very suspicious) that the FBI was dismissing
out of hand any chances that they might have accidentally set the blaze 
themselves. I mean, I guess we are just supposed to believe that
ramming modified tanks into the walls of a building and injecting
toxic gases into the building are just routine procedures, no WAY
anything could go wrong.

JOB 26:7  He stretcheth out the north over the empty  place,  and
hangeth the earth upon nothing.

They recycled a lot of models and theme music for UFO.  Some of the
concepts even showed up in SPACE: 1999. 

	Sorry, I was, but I somehow have misplaced my diskette from the last 
couple of months or so. However, thanks to the efforts of Bobby, it is being 
replenished rather quickly!  

	Here is a recent favorite:

	--

        S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 

--

A freeze dried Tootsie Roll (tm).  The actual taste sensation was like nothing
you will ever willingly experience.  The amazing thing was that we ate a second
one, and a third and ....

I doubt that they actually flew on missions, as I'm certain they did "bad
things" to the gastrointestinal tract.  Compared to Space Food Sticks, Tang was
a gastronomic contribution to mankind.
--
Dillon Pyron                      | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support    | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here)     |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home)     |God gave us weather so we wouldn't complain
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com          |about other things.
PADI DM-54909                     |

)
)That's your mistake.  It would be better for the children if the mother
)raised the child.
)
)One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say "Mom",
)because of the love of their mom.  It makes for more virile men.
)Compare that with how homos are raised.  Do a study and you will get my
)point.
)
)But in no way do you have a claim that it would be better if the men
)stayed home and raised the child.  That is something false made up by
)feminists that seek a status above men.  You do not recognize the fact
)that men and women have natural differences.  Not just physically, but
)mentally also.
) [...]
)Your logic.  I didn't say americans were the cause of worlds problems, I
)said atheists.
) [...]
)Becuase they have no code of ethics to follow, which means that atheists
)can do whatever they want which they feel is right.  Something totally
)based on their feelings and those feelings cloud their rational
)thinking.
) [...]
)Yeah.  I didn't say that all atheists are bad, but that they could be
)bad or good, with nothing to define bad or good.
)

  Awright!  Bobby's back, in all of his shit-for-brains glory.  Just
  when I thought he'd turned the corner of progress, his Thorazine
  prescription runs out.  

  I'd put him in my kill file, but man, this is good stuff.  I wish
  I had his staying power.

  Fortunately, I learned not to take him too seriously long,long,long
  ago.

Writer Kathy Sawyer reported in today's Washington Post that Joseph Shea, the 
head of the space station redesign has resigned for health reasons.

Shea was hospitalized shortly after his selection in February.  He returned
yesterday to lead the formal presentation to the independent White House panel.
Shea's presentation was rambling and almost inaudible.

Shea's deputy, former astronaut Bryan O'Connor, will take over the effort.

Goldin asserted that the redesign effort is on track.

I am currently using POVRay on Mac and was wondering if anyone in netland
knows of public domain anti-aliasing utilities so that I can skip this step
in POV, very slow on this machine.  Any suggestions, opinions about
post-trace anti-aliasing would be greatly appreciated.

From another space forum
    When workers at the Kennedy Space Center disassembled the STS-56
 solid rocket boosters they were surprised to find a pair of pliers
 lodged into the outside base of the right hand SRB.  The tool survived
 the trip from the launch pad up to approximately a 250,000 foot
 altitude, then down to splashdown and towing back to KSC.

    NASA spokesperson Lisa Malone told the media,

    "It's been a long time since something like this happened.  We've
 lost washers and bolts (before) but never a tool like this."

    The initial investigation into the incident has shown that a
 Thiokol Corp. technician noticed and reported his pliers as missing on
 April 2nd.  Unfortunately, the worker's supervisor did not act on the
 report and Discovery was launched with its "extra payload".  NASA
 officials were never told of the missing tool before the April 8th
 launch date.

    The free-flying pliers were supposed to be tethered to the SRB
 technician.  When the tool was found in an aft section of the booster,
 its 18-inch long rope was still attached.  The pliers were found in a
 part of the booster which is not easily visible from the launch pad.

    A spokesperson for the Lockheed Space Operations Company said that
 the Shuttle processor will take "appropriate action".  Thiokol is a
 subcontractor to LSOC for work to prepare Shuttle hardware for launch.

_________________________________________________________

Karl Anderson	
DEV/2000: Configuration Management/Version Control

Dept 53K/006-2		Rochester, Minnesota 55901
253-8044		Tie 8-453-8044
INTERNET: karl@vnet.ibm.com
PRODIGY: CMMG96A

I am not Mathew (Mantis) but any (successful) first year logic student will see that you are logically correct, the other poster is logically incorrect.

Does anyone know of a site where I could ftp some RenderMan shaders?
Or of a newsgroup which has discussion or information about RenderMan?  I'm
new to the RenderMan (Mac) family, and I'd like to get as much info I can
lay my hands on.  Thanks!

        Andy Bates.

Andy Bates.

Looking at historical evidence such 'perfect utopian' islamic states
didn't survive. I agree, people are people, and even if you might
start an Islamic revolution and create this perfect state, it takes 
some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules --
again.

Cheers,
Kent

Almost one third of the world's population claim to be Christian.  But
any similarity between their beliefs and lifestyle to the first century
model is purely coincidental.  At Luke 18:8 it states, "...nevertheless,
when the son of man returns, will he really find the faith on the earth?"

Hmm.  $1 billion, lesse... I can probably launch 100 tons to LEO at
$200 million, in five years, which gives about 20 tons to the lunar
surface one-way.  Say five tons of that is a return vehicle and its
fuel, a bigger Mercury or something (might get that as low as two
tons), leaving fifteen tons for a one-man habitat and a year's supplies?
Gee, with that sort of mass margins I can build the systems off
the shelf for about another hundred million tops.  That leaves
about $700 million profit.  I like this idea 8-)  Let's see
if you guys can push someone to make it happen 8-) 8-)

[slightly seriously]

Of course B.M. is not incorrect.  He is defending Islam.  When defending
Islam against infidels you can say anything and no one will dare criticize
you.  But when an atheist uses the same argument he is using "petty sarcasm".  So
B.M. can have his "temporary atheists" whenever he needs them and all the
"temporary atheists" can later say that they were always good Muslims because
they never explicitly rejected Islam.  

/(hudson)
/Yes you do.  Who is to say that it is immoral for onesself to experience
/pain or to be hurt in some other way.  Maybe unpleasant, but that doesn't
/say anything about morality.

It violates free will, Hudson.

(me)

/(hudson)
/Why is making someone a less productive member of society immoral?

Hudson, you are screwing up again.  Morality does not (I say again, DOES
NOT) define only "right and wrong".  It also defines "acceptable social
behavior", without any overtones of good and evil.  Picking up your trash
is not really a right/wrong moral issue in the eternal sense of Good
and Evil.  Yet it is moral in the sense that it is acceptable social
behavior".  

Your definition of the word "morality" is what is causing you to trip over 
yourself here.

/(me)
/And since
/>I, selfish being that I am, want to maximize my gains from society, I will
/>not do anything to another member of society if that action might cut down
/>on how much benefit I can derive from society.

/(hudson)
/Why is your benefit somehow related to morality.

Again, your definition is causing you to shoot yourself in the foot.

/(hudson)
/What about if someone feels that their own personal benefit is enhanced
/more than it would be damaged by depleting the overall resources of society?
/Maybe something might hurt society, but it would help him immensly?

That is irrational thinking.  

There may also be people out there who think that death by atomic 
destruction is  a sublime and wonderful thing. I am not going to let them
execute that idea just because they want to do it. 

Simply because I let people make up their minds about what morals they
have doesn't prevent me from spotting and stopping a madman when I see
one, Hudson.  And even then, I will only stop him when he interferes 
with me and my life.  That is the difference between me and you:  you
want to interfere in people's lives even when they aren't affecting
you.  

/(hudson)
/The central character in Dostoevsky's novel, Crime and Punishment, 
/(R something or other) reasoned that if killed this old Jewish woman and
/stole her money to educate and establish himself financially, he could
/make a great contribution to society.  He reasoned that she was not of 
/much profit to society.  She just collected rents, and hoarded money.

One of the central points of any (that's ANY) moral system is that is
has to be internally consistent.  

By killing her, the character had to accept the premise that the ends
justify the means.  If he accepted that premise, then (in order to be
consistent), he must accept the idea that some day another person may
apply the same standard to HIS life.  Now, if he is unwilling to accept
this premise (which he will not be willing to accept), then he has
behaved inconsistently with his own moral standard.

/(me)
/[football example deleted]

/(hudson)
/Now suppose a freshman on the bench will only get to play if one of the
/players in the field/on the court is injured (or killed.)  This freshman
/wants to play in the big game so a talent scout can see him.  If he hurts
/a player on the team, it might slightly lessen the chances of the team to
/win, but he might gain great personal benefit.  So, operating on purely
/selfish (immorally selfish) motives, he arranges for a sniper to shoot a
/team player in the leg.  He gets to play in front of the talent scout.

/Did that freshman behave morally?

/Selfish intentions may sometimes generate (apparently) moral actions, but
/not always.

Two problems right off the bat:

1.  The problem with your analogy is that it doesn't address the goal
that I started with:  winning the game.  Playing in front of the talent
scout != winning the game.  Try creating the same analogy and keep the
ultimate goal the same, will you?

But, you wouldn't know what red *was*, and you certainly couldn't judge
it subjectively.  And, objectivity is not applicable, since you are wanting
to discuss the merits of red.

: The Bible says there is a God; if that is true then our atheism is
: mistaken.  What of it?  Seems pretty obvious to me.  Socrates said
: there were many gods; if that is true then your monotheism (and our
: atheism) is mistaken, even if Socrates never existed.

Jim,

I think you must have come in late. The discussion (on my part at
least) began with Benedikt's questioning of the historical acuuracy of
the NT. I was making the point that, if the same standards are used to
validate secular history that are used here to discredit NT history,
then virtually nothing is known of the first century.

You seem to be saying that the Bible -cannot- be true because it
speaks of the existence of God as it it were a fact. Your objection
has nothing to do with history, it is merely another statement of
atheism.

 I spoke with the author of MacWireFrame earlier today. The cost is $299, but there
 are no license royalties. His name is Eric Johnson in Sacramento, CA phone
 916/737-1550. He doesn't have email. Very nice guy... very knowledgeable about
 graphics. Seems like he may have a decent package. It's an Object Pascal Framework
 that supposedly has a fairly complete set of geometry creation classes. 
 I'm going to check it out and see if it's got what I need for my CAD package.

 I also found another package: 3D Graphic Tools by Micro System Options in Seattle.
 The number is: 206/868-5418, also no email. The package is strong at ray tracing,
 I'm not too sure about its geometry creation tools. I also need to look into this
 package some more. I also spoke with the author, Mark Owens, another nice
 guy that seems to know his business. The price is $249, no royalties.

[reply to zazen@austin.ibm.com (E. H. Welbon)]
 
For many atheists, the lack of belief in gods is secondary to an
epistemological consideration:  what do we accept as a reliable way of
knowing?  There are no known valid logical arguments for the existence
of gods, nor is there any empirical evidence that they exist.  Most
philosophers and theologians agree that the idea of a god is one that
must be accepted on faith.  Faith is belief without a sound logical
basis or empirical evidence.  It is a reliable way of knowing?
 
There is probably nothing else most people would accept in the absence
of any possibility of proof.  Even when we agree to take someone elses
word "on faith", we just mean that having found this person to be
reliable in the past, we judge him likely to be a reliable source now.
If we find faith less reliable than logic and empirical evidence
everywhere else, why assume it will provide reliable knowledge about
gods?
 
The difference between the atheist and the theist is fundamentally then
one of whether or not faith is held to be a reliable way of knowing,
rather than, as some agnostic posters would have it, whether ones faith
is in gods or no gods.  The theist believes that faith is an acceptable
basis for a belief in gods, even if he rejects faith as reliable at
other times, for example in his work as a scientist.  The atheist
believes that only logic and empirical evidence lead to reliable
knowledge.  Agnosticism seems to me a less defensible position than
theism or atheism, unless one is a sceptic in regards to all other
knowledge.  Without evidence, why should we believe in gods rather than
Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny?
 
I would also like to point out as others have that the atheist doesn't
require absolute knowledge of the lack of gods.  I don't believe that
there is any such thing as absolute knowledge.  Atheism is the best and
simplest theory to fit the (lack of) facts and so should be held until
contrary evidence is found.

I've been to three talks in the last month which might be of interest. I've 
transcribed some of my notes below.  Since my note taking ability is by no means
infallible, please assume that all factual errors are mine.  Permission is 
granted to copy this without restriction.

Michael Sternberg, Cheif of Operations of RIMSAT, was invited to speak at an
informal lunch held by ACDIS here on the campus of the University of Illinois.
ACDIS is an organization on campus that deals with Arms Control, Disarmament and
International Security.  RIMSAT was considered an appropriate topic because the
company is using Russian launchers and satellites.  I think it also helped that
his daughter is a grad student in the International Relations program.

The concept behind RIMSAT apparently began when Matt Neilson (?) went to Tonga
to visit a friend.  While he was there, he somehow ended up visiting the king,
who happened to be a big TV fan.  Matt bought the King a satellite dish, which 
the king thought was really nifty.  Since Tonga has a GNP of about $70 million,
His Majesty asked if there was any way to make money off this.  Matt thought
there probably was, so at his suggestion, Tonga applied for 31 geosynchronous
satellite slots.  While this isn't entirely off the wall, it was very unusual,
seeing as Tonga was a tiny kingdom with no space program, and 31 is a lot of
slots.

The whole thing was debated in the appropriate regulatory agency and Carl
Hilliard (who is apparently a respected space lawyer) wrote several opinions
supporting Tonga's case.  Eventually Tonga ended up with 7 slots, ranging from 
70 E to 170 E (slots are designated by the longitude over which they reside).
According to Sternberg, four of these, from 130 E to 142 E are the best in the
world because they are excellently placed for communications between Hawaii and 
the Pacific Rim. 

RIMSAT was formed to use these slots. It was officially formed in Nevis as a tax
haven.  They tried for a few years to raise funds in the west, however, to
fill 7 slots with western satellites launched on western launchers would have
cost approximately $2 billion.  It's not easy to raise that kind of money.
Eventually, they hit upon the idea of using Russian hardware.  They began 
negotiating with Glavkosmos for hardware.  Mr Sternberg describes operating in 
Moscow in such harsh terms that I don't think I'll visit there for a long time.
Besides a significant lack of creature comforts, he was not happy with the way
that people operate.  For example "everybody can sell you everything."  
Everyone can show the proper documents and licenses that indicate they are the
only ones who have the authority to sell what ever you want to by.

Eventually, RIMSAT arranged a deal with Glavkosmos for 6 satellites at a cost
of $150 million.  However, Glavkosmos lost favor after the coup.  Sternberg
says that this is because they were basically a bunch of KGB operatives who 
went to trade shows and picked up lots of brochures.  Since Glavkosmos was
out of power, he had to renegotiate the deal with the new authorities.  He
again described life in a Moscow hotel in rather unfavorable terms.  Eventually,
he worked out a deal and on Dec 4, 1992 he met with Koptev, who heads the 
Russian space program, to sign the deal.  Koptev insisted on a few concessions
before signing and according to Sternberg he arranged these new rules to 
allow himself to form another company to do the exact same thing as RIMSAT.

The next step was to meet with the builders of the hardware, NPO Applied 
Mechanics -- NPO PM to use their acronym.  This organization is located in 
Siberia (can't figure out how to spell the town, I need an atlas) and has built
about 1500 vehicles since the dawn of the space age.  Sternberg commented that
siberians are very different from Musovites.  They are hard workers, honest
people who team up to get things done, very much like midwesterners.  At this
point there were some comments from the audience that agreed with his opinion on
both siberians and midwesterners :-)

Sternberg had lots of good things to say about NPO PM.  His company is 
apparently lookng for $100 million to invest in the firm to become 50% partners.It apparently costs the Russians about $4 million to build a satellite that
would sell for $50 million in the west.  If you want to give them 
specifications, they'll build you a satellite.  For the particular satellites
that RIMSAT will be using, costs run about $378,000 per transponder year.  This
compares to $810,000 t/y in the U.S.  They can sell their time for about $1.1
million compared to $2.6 million in the U.S.  RIMSAT will launch their 
satellites on Protons.  To get the best prices, they bought in bulk.  They 
have the rights to twelve launches, so if any of you need a lift I can give
you their address.  The first launch is scheduled for October and they are
getting one used satellite from the Russians, which is being moved into place
now.

Tidbits:

*  Sternberg says this kind of thing has to be done by entrepreneurs, not big
business because big business is just like what they have over there, except
that "we have better paper, both in the bathroom and in the copier."

*  Russian launches are self insured.  The promise to replace a failed launch
within 9 months.

*  Major investors in RIMSAT include Russell 20/20, which is a huge retirement
fund organization, Cellsat, which is a big telecom business in southeast Asia,
and a fund operated by some of the big names in U.S aerospace which he says is
sort of an insurance policy for them if this really takes off.

*  He downplayed the instabilites in the ex-USSR saying that we are worried
partly because we aren't used to seeing Russia as anything but an unvarying
monolith.  Italy gets a new government "every two weeks" but we don't worry 
because we're used to it.  He predicted that once we get used to seeing what
really goes on in Russia we won't worry about their stability as much.

*  Part of the problem with cooperative ventures is the problem of transfering
money.  The central bank has a policy of taking hard currency payments, putting
25% in their coffers and replacing the rest with the "equivalent" value in 
rubles.  To get around this, RIMSAT pays their hard currency into an Austrian
bank account.  NPO PM then pays their contractors with foreign currency so that
the only the contractors get swindled by the government.

*  One of the big problems RIMSAT has had is stonewalling by the western 
satellite industry.  However, Intelsat recently bought three of the same type
of satellites, which was rather reassuring.

*  The biggest worry most people have about russian satellites is the primitive
technology and shorter lifetime.  The older Gorizont (Horizon) satellites have
a lifetime of about 5 years, while the more modern Express satellites compare
well with western technology and last about 8 years.  While this is much 
shorter than 15 years for western satellites, Sternberg downplayed the 
difference.  At these prices they can afford to launch new ones.  In addition,
shorter lifetimes mean that they can replace their equipment with newer
technology so they will be able to compete better than older, out of date
hardware.

This is an interesting notion -- and one I'm scared of. In my
case I'm a Finnish citizen, I live in USA, and I have to conform
to the US laws. However, the Finnish government is not actively
checking out what I'm doing in this country, in other words checking
out if I conform to the Finnish laws.

However, Islamic law seems to be a 'curse' that is following you
everywhere in the world. Shades of 1984, eh?

Cheers,
Kent

News-Software: UReply 3.1
X-X-From: Wingert@VNET.IBM.com (Bret Wingert)
            <C5uBn5.tz@zoo.toronto.edu>

 ========================================================================
A couple of points on this thread.

1. We have been using our processes since way before Challenger.  Challenger
   in and of it self did not uncover flaws.

2. What Mr. Spencer says is by and large true.  We have a process that is
   not dependent on "sophisticated tools"  (CASE tools?).  However, tools
   cannot fix a bad process.  Also, tool support for HAL/S (the Shuttle
   Language) is somewhat limited.

3. The Onboard Flight Software project was rated "Level 5" by a NASA team.
   This group generates 20-40 KSLOCs of verified code per year for NASA.

4. Feel free to call me if you or your organization is interested in more info
   on our software development process.

Bret Wingert

(713)-282-7534
FAX: (713)-282-8077

A book that I can somewhat recommend is :
                     
                     Pratical Image Processing in C
                     by Craig A. Lindley
                     published by Wiley

Bobby, there's a question here that I just HAVE to ask. If all
of your posts aren't some sort of extended, elaborate hoax, why
are you trying so hard to convince the entire civilised world
that you're feeble minded? You have a talent for saying the most
absurd things. Here's a little sign for you, print it, cut it out
and put it on top of your computer/terminal.

              ENGAGE BRAIN PRIOR TO OPERATING KEYBOARD

(Having said all that, I must admit we all get a laugh from
your stuff.)

-- 

ARIANESPACE FLIGHT 56

(Flight V.56 was originally intended to carry the Hughes HS-601 series 
Galaxy IV satellite, but the payload was withdrawn just prior to flight.)

The 56th Ariane launch is now scheduled to place the ASTRA 1C and ARSENE 
satellites into an improved geostationary transfer orbit (GTO), with 
inclination reduced to 5 degrees and apogee altitude increased by 150 km.
This will be the 28th launch of an Ariane 4 and the first in the 42L 
configuration, with 2 liquid strap-on boosters (PAL).  It will be launched
from the newly refurbished Ariane launch complex ELA 2, in Kourou - French 
Guiana.

The launch vehicle performance requirement for this mission is 3,147 kg
of which 2,944 kg represents the satellite mass.  The total vehicle mass
at liftoff is 361,778 kg.

Required Orbit Characteristics:
  Perigee Altitude ..... 200 km
  Apogee Altitude ...... 36,160 km at injection 
  Inclination ..........   5 degrees

The Ariane 42L lift-off for Flight 56 is scheduled on Thursday,
April 29, 1993, as soon as possible within the following launch 
window:

     Kourou Time        GMT (04/30/93)      Washington, DC
     21:52 - 22:50      00:52 - 01:50       20:52 - 21:50

LAUNCH VEHICLE:

Ariane 42L.  This is a three-stage liquid fueled launcher with two liquid 
fueled strap-on boosters.  The first stage (L220) is built by Aerospatiale,
and is powered by 4 liquid fueled Viking V engines.  The second stage (L33)
is built by MBB Erno and is powered by a single Viking IV engine.  Both the
Viking IV and V engines are manufactured by SEP.  The first and second stages
use a biliquid UH25/N2O4 fuel. The third stage (H10) is built by Aerospatiale,
and is powered by a cryogenic H2/O2 fueled HM-7B engine built by SEP. The two
strap-on boosters (PAL) are each powered by a Viking VI engine, also built 
by SEP, which use the same biliquid fuel as the first and second stages.  
The fully assembled launch vehicle stands 56 meters high on the pad.  
It uses the Type 01 Ariane Short payload fairing.

Flight Profile:

 +02:21  Liquid strap-on booster jettison
 +03:11  First stage separation
 +03:18  Second stage ignition
 +04:10  Fairing jettison
 +05:21  Second stage separation
 +05:26  Third stage ignition
 +17:30  Third stage shutdown / orbit injection
 +19:56  ASTRA 1C separation
 +22:36  Cyclade adapter separation
 +24:26  ARSENE separation
 +28:47  End of Ariane mission 56

PAYLOADS:

ASTRA 1C is the third spacecraft in the fleet of "Societe Europeenne
des Satellites" to broadcast direct TV to homes all over Europe.
Built by Hughes, it will be the second HS-601 launched by Ariane.

  Total mass at lift-off .... 2,790 kg
  Mass at GEO insertion ..... 1,700 kg
  Dry mass .................. 1,180 kg     
  On-board power ............ 3,300 W (end of life)
  Nominal lifetime .......... 15 years     
  Span of solar panels ...... 21 m
  On-Orbit position ......... 19.2 degrees east, over Africa.

 Transmission capacity:  
   34 channels in Ku-band, via 18 transponders.

 In-flight operations:
   Solar array deployment ............ about 6 days after lift-off
   First of 3 apogee motor firings ... about 40 hours after lift-off 
                                       at 4th apogee

ARSENE is the first spacecraft built by the European Space Industry
for the benefit of the world amateur radio community.  

  Total mass at lift-off .... 154 kg
  Mass at GEO insertion .....  98 kg
  Dry mass ..................  97 kg     
  On-board power ............ 42 W (end of life)
  Nominal lifetime .......... 3 years     
  Spacecraft dimensions ..... 1.1m x .96m
  Orbital parameters ........ 20000/36000 km, 0 inclination, period 17:30.

   S-band:  1 transponder at 2.446 ghz
   VHF/UHF: 145/435 mhz 

LAUNCH COVERAGE:

All Ariane missions are broadcast live via satellite from Kourou. 
Coverage begins at 30 minutes before launch and continues until 
all payloads have been deployed.  This mission will likely be carried
in the US on Galaxy 6, however it could be Galaxy 7 or another satellite.
(What is the European satellite normally used for Ariane coverage?)
 
At the moment i'm trying to grab a portion of a Starbase screen, and store it
in an area of memory. The data needs to be in a 24-bit format (which
shouldn't be a problem as the app is running on a 24 bit screen), though
i'm not too fussy about the exact format.

(I actually intend to write the data out as a TIFF but that bits not the
problem)

Does anyone out there know how to grab a portion of the screen? The
block_read call seems to grab the screen, but not in 24 bit colour,
whatever the screen/window type i get 1 byte per pixel. 

thanks in advance,

Martin

--

In <sfnNTrC00WBO43LRUK@andrew.cmu.edu> "David R. Sacco" <dsav+@andrew.cmu.edu> 

Yes.

MAC
--

I've had exactly the same problems in Aldus Freehand.  I think autotracing
is one of those "features" that barely works, but everybody feels compelled
to throw it in because the other guys are doing it.  :)

Of course, the list has to agree with the nickname laws laid down by the
GIPU almost 2000 years ago (you know... the 9 of them that were written on
the iron tablets that melted once and had to be reinscribed?).  Since I am
a prophet of the GIPU I decree that you should post the whole list of
nicknames for the frequent posters here!

It helps to have some idea of the source of the distortion - or at least
a reasonable model of the class of distortion.  Below is a very short
description of the process which we use; if you have further questions,
feel free to poke me via e-mail.

================================================================
*ASSUME: locally smooth distortion

0) Compute the Delaunay Triangulation of your (x,y) points.  This
   defines the set of neighbors for each point.  If your data are
   not naturally convex, you may have very long edges on the convex hull.
   Consider deleting these edges.

1) Now, there are two goals:

    a) move the DistortedData(x,y) to the Reference(x,y)
    b) keep the Length(e) (as measured from the current (x,y)'s)
       as close as possible to the DigitizedLength(e) (as measured 
       using the digitized (x,y)'s).

2) For every point, compute a displacement based on a) and b).  For
   example:

    a) For (x,y) points for which you know the Reference(x,y), you
       can move alpha0*(Reference(x,y) - Current(x,y)).   This will
       slowly move the DistortedReference(x,y) towards the
       Reference(x,y). 
    b) For all other points, examine the current length of each edge.
       For each edge, compute a displacement which would make that edge
       the correct length (where "correct" is the DigitizedLength). 
       Take the vector sum of these edge displacements, and move the
       point alpha1*SumOfEdgeDisplacements.  This will keep the
       triangulated mesh consistent with your Digitized mesh.

3) Iterate 2) until you are happy (for example, no point moves very much).

alpha0 and alpha1 need to be determined by experimentation.   Consider
how much you believe the Reference(x,y) - i.e., do you absolutely insist
on the final points exactly matching the References, or do you want to
balance some error in matching the Reference against changes in length
of the edges.

WARNING: there are a couple of geometric invariants which must be
observed (essentially, you can't allow the convex hull to change, and
you can't allow triangles to "fold over" neighboring triangles.  Both of
these can be handled either by special case checks on the motion of
individual points, or by periodically re-triangulating the points (using 
the current positions - but still calculating DigitizedLength from the
original positions.  When we first did this, the triangulation time was
prohibitive, so we only did it once.  If I were motivated to try and
change code that has been working in production mode for 5 years, I
*might* go back and re-triangulate on every iteration.  If you have more
compute power than you know what to do with, you might consider having
every point interact with every other point....but first read up on
linear solutions to the n-body problem.

There are lots of papers in the last 10 years of SIGGRAPH proceedings on
springs, constraints,  and energy calculations which are relevant.  The
above method is described, in more or less detail in:

@inproceedings{Sloan86,
author="Sloan, Jr., Kenneth R. and David Meyers and Christine A.~Curcio",
title="Reconstruction and Display of the Retina",
booktitle="Proceedings: Graphics Interface '86 Vision Interface '86",
address="Vancouver, Canada",
pages="385--389",
month="May",
year=1986  }

@techreport{Curcio87b,
author="Christine A.~Curcio and Kenneth R.~Sloan and David Meyers",
title="Computer Methods for Sampling, Reconstruction, Display, and
Analysis of Retinal Whole Mounts",
number="TR 87-12-03",
institution="Department of Computer Science, University of Washington",
address="Seattle, WA",
month="December",
year=1987  }

@article{Curcio89,
journal="Vision Research",
volume=29,
number=5,
pages="529--540",
year=1989  }
 
In the Air Force world at least, the crisis escalates when scale
models of the plane in question (i.e. about to be sacrificed) begin to
arrive in key Senators and Congresspersons' offices.

Of course it is assumed that coffee mugs and other decorative junk has
been tried earlier.

Spiros

If no-one looks at the results, or acknowledges their correctness, in what
meaningful sense can the chip be said to "work"?? Does flibozity exist?
By "flibozity", I mean a particular, extremely complex configuration of 
physical phenomena, which no-one, absolutely NO-ONE cares about in the 
slightest. Does it exist, Eric?

Getting back to the question of whether the DES chip "works", doesn't "work" 
mean something like "achieving the desired/expected effect"? Note the way 
intentionality subtly underlies that definition. Even if we take the 
definition as "expected", instead of "desired", can you deny that conformance 
to expectations is itself a value of sorts, namely the scientific values of 
accuracy-of-prediction and reproducibility-of-results?

The phenomenologist Husserl, for one, considered Intentionality to be the
primary ontological "stuff" from which all other ontology was built --
perceptions, consciousness, thoughts, etc. Frank is by no means alone in
seeing intentionality (or "values", as he puts it) underlying all human
experience, even the so-called "objective" experiences, such as 
measurements of the natural world, or the output of your DES chip.

                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wow! I knew Uranus is a long way off, but I didn't think it was THAT far away!

On a related topic, I have been searching (with no success)
for a specification of the Enhanced Metafile format.  I have
the original WMF format (Graphics File Formats, Levine et al),
but no info on the 32 bit version.

Any pointers ?

The following is an introduction as to who is Muhammad SAW
as will be covered with this treatise.

MUHAMMAD peace and blessings of Allah be upon him (SAW)
is the last prophet of Islam.  He is the Prophet who is revealed
the last Holy Scripture, Qur'an, by Allah SWA (all praise be to Him)
through the Arch Angel Gabriel.  He is the seal of all prophets
till the day of judgement as stated in the Qur'an by Allah
SWA (all praise be to Him).  Muhammad SAW lived between
571-632 AC.  All other prophethoods claimed after Muhammad SAW,
is a treason against Islam, against Qur'an, against the message
of Allah SWA.  Muhammad SAW is from the seed of Ishmael, another
messenger of Allah and son of Abraham also a messenger of Allah.
He is the Messenger that previous holy scriptures foretold his
coming.  The above mentioned verse from the Qur'an is from 
Chapter 33, Verse 40 whose rough translation is as follows:

	Muhammad is not the father of any of your men,
	but (he is) the messenger of Allah, and the seal
	of the prophets, and Allah has full knowledge of
	all things.

---------------------
Commentary on the above verse:  When a document is sealed,
it is complete, and there can be no further addition.  The 
Holy Prophet Muhammad SAW closed the long line of Messengers.
Allah's teaching is and will always be continuous, but there
has been and will be NO Prophet after Muhammad SAW.  The later
ages will want thinkers, and revivers, not Prophets.  This is not
an arbitrary matter.  It is a decree full of knowledge and wisdom,
"for Allah has full knowledge of all things."

----------------------
DROPLET VOL 1, No 11, Part 2

A   D R O P L E T
From The Vast Ocean Of The Miraculous Qur'an

Translations from the Arabic and Turkish Writings of 
Bediuzzaman Said Nursi, The Risale-i Noor

VOL 1, No 11, Part 2
------------------------------------------------------------------
   		 NINETEENTH LETTER  

		 MU'JIZAT-I AHMEDIYE RISALESI 
(A TREATISE ON THE MIRACLES OF MUHAMMED SAW)       

(continued from Droplet Vol 1, No 11, Part 1)

   SECOND  SIGN:   The  Noble  Messenger  (SAW)
declared His prophethood, and presented to humanity a
decree as the Glorious Qur'an and manifest miracles
which number, according to the scholars, one thousand.
The occurrence of those miracles in their entirety is as
certain as the fact that He declared himself prophet.  In
fact, as a shown by the words of the  most obstinate
unbelievers quoted in various places of the Wise
Our'an, even they could not deny the occurrence of His
miracles, but only called them -hasha wa kella!-(Allah forbids) 
sorcery, in order to satisfy themselves, or to deceive their
followers.  The miracles of Muhammad (SAW) have the
certainty of confirmation by consensus of Ulema (scholars
of Islam) to the hundreth degree.
   The Miracle is the conformation by the CREATOR of
the universe of His declaration of Prophethood; it has the
effect of the words,'You have indeed spoken the truth !'
   Suppose that you said in the assembly of a ruler,
while being observed by Him, 'The true ruler has
appointed me to such and such position.  'At a time when
you were asked to prove your claim, the word 'Yes'
uttered by the ruler would sufficiently support you.  Or, if
the ruler changed his usual practice and attitude at your
request, this would confirm your claim even more soundly
and more definitely than would the word 'Yes.'
   In the same way, ALLAH's Most Noble Messenger
claimed: 'I am the envoy of the CREATOR of this
universe.  My proof is that He will change His unbroken
order at my request and my prayer.  Now look at my
fingers:  He makes them run like a fountain with five
spigots.  Look at the moon: by a gesture of my finger, He
splits it in two.  Look at that tree: to affirm me, and to bear
witness to me, it moves and comes near to me.  Look at
this food: although it is barely enough for two or three
men, it satisfies two or three hundred.  'Further he shows
hundreds of similar miracles.  However, the evidences  of
the veracity of this high being and the proofs of his
prophethood are not restricted to his miracles.  All his
deeds and acts, his words and behavior, his moral
conduct and manners, his character and appearance
prove to the attentive his truthfulness and seriousness.
Indeed, many people  such  as  Abdullah  b. Salam,  the
famous scholar of the Children of Israel, came to belief
merely by seeing him, and said, 'No lie can hide in this
face, nor can any fraud be found in it!'
   Although many of the  researchers have concluded
that the proofs of the prophethood of Muhammad and his
miracles number about one thousand, there are
thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of proofs  of
his prophethood.  And hundreds of thousands of
truth-seeking men (muhakkikiin) with varying opinions
have affirmed his prophethood in an equal number of
ways.
   The Wise Our'an alone demonstrates thousands of
the proofs of his prophethood, in addition to its own forty
aspects of miraculousness.  Since prophethood is as a
phenomenon of humanity, and hundreds of thousands of
individuals who claimed prophethood and performed
miracles have lived and passed away; then, the
prophethood of Muhammad (SAW) is of a certanity
superior to that of the prophethood of all the others.  For
whatever evidences, qualities  and attributes  became the
means of the prophethood and messengership of all the
messengers such as Jesus (AS) and Moses (AS), they
are all owned in a more perfect and comprehensive
fashion by Muhammad (SAW).  And since the causes and
means of prophetic authority exist more perfectly in the
person of Muhammad (SAW), this authority is to be found
in him with more certanity than all the other prophets.

If the first rule of humor is never having to say you're sorry then the 
second rule must be never having to explain yourself.  Few things are 
worse that a joke explained.  In spite of this, and because of requests
for me to post my list o' nicknames, I must admit that no such list
exists.  It was simply a plot device, along with me being the keeper
o' the list, to make the obvious play on the last name of Fuller and to
advance the idea that such a list should be made.

I assumed that the ol' timers would recognize it for what it is.  
Nevertheless, how about a list o' nicknames for alt.atheism posters?
If you think of a good one, just post it and see if others like it.
We could start with those posters who annoy us the most, like Bobby or
Bill.

Jim "D'oh! I broke the second rule of humor" Copeland

As much as I considered some of the (so-called) Islam-related dialogue
here a total waste of time, I somehow can't restrain myself in this
instance, so, Gregg, try this:

20:52 P.S.T.  I come to my senses and accept the all-knowing
wisdom and power of the Quran and Allah.  Not only that, but Allah 
himself drops by to congratulate me on my wise choice. Allah rolls a
few bones and we get down.  Then Allah gets out the Crisco, bends 
over, and invites me to take a spin around the block.  Wow.

20:56 P.S.T.  I realize that maybe Allah is looking for more of a 
commitment than I'm ready for, so I say "Man, I've got some
programming to do.  Gotta go.  I'll call you."

20:59 P.S.T   Thinking it over, I renounce Islam.

BTW, Gregg, Allah said he still thinks of you.

I am looking for EISA or VESA local bus graphic cards that support at least 
1024x786x24 resolution.  I know Matrox has one, but it is very expensive.  All the
other cards I know of, that support that resoultion, are striaght ISA. 

Also are there any X servers for a unix PC that support 24 bits?

I like option C of the new space station design.. 
It needs some work, but it is simple and elegant..

Its about time someone got into simple construction versus overly complex...

Basically just strap some rockets and a nose cone on the habitat and go for
it..

Might be an idea for a Moon/Mars base to.. 

-> I am looking for source-code for the radiosity-method.

 I don't know what kind of machine you want it for, but the program
Radiance comes with 'C' source code - I don't have ftp access so I
couldn't tell you where to get it via that way.

I told some friends of mine two weeks ago that Koresh was dead.  The FBI and
the BATF could not let a man like that live.  He was a testimonial to their
stupidity and lies.    

Now before everyone gets crazy with me, let me say that Koresh was crazy as 
a bed bug, but out government was crazier...and they lied to us.

They told us compound had been under survaillance for quite some time.  Yet, 
whoever was watching the place failed to see that Koresh went jogging and into
town on a regular basis.  Everyone in the area claimed to have seen him and 
wondered why they didn't pick him up then.  There are two possible answers.
First, they didn't see him.  What kind of survaillance is that?  Second, they
didn't care.  They wanted a confrontation.  They wanted publicity and they got
it.

After the first battle, they told us that they did not know he knew they were
coming.  They also said it would have been foolish to go in knowing that.
Well, we know now that they intercepted the informants call and went in anyway.

Did they explore all of the possibilities for ending the seige?  According to
them they did, but according to the Hartford Courant, the woman that raised
Koresh (His Grandmother) was not allowed to go in and see him.                 
 The FBI agent who she spoke with was Bob Ricks and according to the paper he

"A lot of people think if you just talk to them logically they will come out.
His grandmother raised Vernon Howell; (Koresh's Real name)  she didn't raise
David Koresh."

Someone who raises you and loves you does not speak to you strickly on a
logical level.  There is also an emotional level on which they can reach you.

Here's another one.  All during this operation the FBI has been claiming that
they feared a mass suicide and that is one of the reasons that something must
be done.  Now they claim they never thought he would do it?

I knew they were going to do something when they started talking about how
much money this was costing.  That was the start of the "Justification" part
part of the plan.  That's when I knew it would come soon.

But, back to the plan.  It is considered "Cruel and Unusal Punishment" to
execute criminals in the minds of many people, but look at what's acceptable.

They knew the parents (adults) had gas masks.  They did not know, or were not
sure, if the children had them.  So the plan was to pour the gas into the 
compound.  The mothers, seeing what the gas was doing to their children were
supposed to run out and that would only leave the men to deal with.

I spent two years in the army and like everyother veteran I went through CBR
(Chemical, Biological Radiological) warfare training.  Part of that training
is going into a room filled with the same stuff that the children were
subjected to.  To make the stuff really interesting the gas also has a chemical 
agent that irritates the skin.  You think its on fire.

I have no doubts the children would become hysterical.  Its not the kind of
thing you never want to do again.  This was the plan, the final solution.

We waited 444 days for our hostages to come home from Iran.  We gave these
people 51 days.  

I stated on several occasions that there was absolutely nothing in this whole
thing that the government could point to as a success.  Well, FBI agent Ricks
changed my mind.  Again a newclip from the Hartford Courant:

"And while expressing regret at the loss of life, he suggested that the
operation had been at least a modified success because not a single federal
shot had been fired and not a single federal agent had been hurt."

It took 17 dead children to get us that new definition of success.

One more thought.  The government claimed that they believed he had automatic
weapons on the premises. 
                                                      
        HE HAD A LICENSE FOR THE 50 CALIBER MACHINE GUN!

THEY KNEW DAMN WELL HE HAD ONE. THEY ALSO KNEW HE HAD IT LEGALLY!

Still, without the element of surprise they sent in agents to get him.
For all of this my President takes full responsibility.  What a guy!
I hope he gets it.

->In article <1993Apr9.151914.1885@daffy.cs.wisc.edu>, mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu
->>
->>In article <monack.733980580@helium> monack@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (david
->>>Another issue is that by having to request to not be required to
->>>recite the "so help me God" part of the oath, a theistic jury may be
->>>prejudiced against your testimony even though atheism is probably not
->>>at all relevant to the case.
->>>
->>>What is the recommended procedure for requesting an alternate oath or
->>>affirmation?
->>>
->>>Dave

Sorry for using a follow-up to respond, but my server dropped about a weeks worth of news
when it couldn't keep up.

When the you are asked to swear "So help you god" and you have to say it, ask which one; Jesus,
Allah, Vishnu, Zues, Odin.  Get them to be specific.   Don't be obnoxious, just humbly ask, then 
quitely sit back and watch the fun.

---

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
James L. Felder			|
Sverdrup Technology,Inc.	|     phone: 216-891-4019
NASA Lewis Research Center     	|    
Cleveland, Ohio  44135         	|     email: jfelder@lerc.nasa.gov 
"Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge, other people gargle"

Cool quote.

Better watch it.  The theists will jump on you for that... :-)

Nanci

Many of you at this point have seen a copy of the 
Lunar Resources Data Purchase Act by now. This bill, also known as the Back to 
the Moon bill, would authorize the U.S. 
government to purchase lunar science data from private 
and non-profit vendors, selected on the basis of competitive bidding, with an 
aggregate cap on bid awards of $65 million. 
        If you have a copy of the bill, and can't or don't want to go through 
all of the legalese contained in all Federal legislation,don't both - you have 
a free resource to evaluate the bill for you. Your local congressional office, 
listed in the phone book,is staffed by people who can forward a copy of the
bill to legal experts. Simply ask them to do so, and to consider supporting
the Lunar Resources Data Purchase Act. 
        If you do get feedback, negative or positive, from your congressional 
office, please forward it to: David Anderman
3136 E. Yorba Linda Blvd., Apt G-14, Fullerton, CA 92631,
or via E-Mail to: David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org. 
        Another resource is your local chapter of the National Space Society. 
Members of the chapter will be happy to work with you to evaluate and support 
the Back to the Moon bill. For the address and telephone number of the nearest 
chapter to you, please send E-mail, or check the latest issue of Ad Astra, in 
a library near you.
        Finally, if you have requested, and not received, information about
the Back to the Moon bill, please re-send your request. The database for the
bill was recently corrupted, and some information was lost. The authors of the 
bill thank you for your patience.

Fred.

	Try reading a bit.  THe government does lots of multi year
contracts with Penalty for cancellation clauses.  They just like to be
damn sure they know what they are doing before they sign a multi year
contract.   THe reason they aren't cutting defense spending as much
as they would like is the Reagan administration signed enough
Multi year contracts,  that it's now cheaper to just finish them out.

Look at SSF.  THis years funding is 2.2 Billion,  1.8 of which will
cover penalty clauses, due to the re-design.

Pascal Perret, in article <1993Apr21.125750.263@eicn.etna.ch>, wrote

Funny thing, the InterNet: I have no idea what xv221 might be - except that it
might be something to do with X-windows on PCs (? If you know, and have used
it, and think that it is good, email me. [ryanph@mrl.dsto.gov.au]).

DV/X is a common abbreviation for QuarterDeck corporation's Desqview/X
software.

I have not used DV/X yet, but reading the blurbs that Quarterdeck sent me, it
sounds pretty great:
	* allows multiple DOS machines - the way that OS/2 does, but without
requiring 10 MB of RAM to get OS/2 going
	* pre-emptive multi-tasking
	* network computing - a proper X-windows client/server application -
this means that DOS program can be used on other X-windows computers on your
network, and that X-windows programs can be used on your DV/X computer
	* although it is NOT a version of Unix, it effectively has many of
Unix's features, and mostly you will be able to compile unix-type programs
using the djgpp or gnu c compilers

They advertise regularly in all of the major computing and programming
magazines. They also have InterNet support online (support@qdeck.com).

Hope that this helps anyone wanting to know.

:
 (lots of stuff about the Nicene Creed deleted which can be read in the
  original basenote.  I will also leave it up to other LDS netters to
  take Mr. Weiss to task on using Mormon Doctrine to declare the difinitive
  word on what the LDS Church teaches as doctrine.  Hopefully the LDS 
  netters will be amiable in their explanation.)

Since it would do no good to rebut what Mr. Weiss has stated on the origin
of the Nicene Creed and its status as devine and inspired (I say "no good"
because it cannot be proved through discussion or debate as to whether or not 
the authors of the Creed were inspired), I leave you (it will be some time 
before I post again) with the following thought authored by Eugene England, 
Professor of English at Brigham Young University.  Mr. England wrote the 
following as part of a book review section in This People's magazine (Spring 
1993 edition):

  "I conclude with a little sermon because I believe we will not be a Mormon--
  or human--family until we can get over labeling and rejecting each other 
  with terms like feminist or patriarchal, liberal or conservative (Christian 
  or non-Christian -- Hal 8^).  When we are tempted to draw a circle around
  a set of beliefs and traditions and styles and call it American, then exclude
  those who don't fit, it may be well to consider that perhaps the most central
  defining characteristic of a good American might be "one who doesn't draw
  exclusive circles" -- that the surest way of excluding ourselves from the 
  central American ideal is by excluding others.  And when we are tempted to
  draw a circle around "Mormon" or "Christian," to decide who is "orthodox"
  and who isn't by how much they agree with us, it might be well to consider
  that the central pillar of Christ's "orthodoxy" is our ability to love
  unconditionally those who are different and include them in our family.

  "I recently spent some time in a "Christian" bookstore in California. The
  service was excellent, the clerks and customers all smiling, neat, and
  well-scrubbed, and there were the expected wholesome offerings of scriptural
  commentaries, sentimental fiction, and collections of evangelistic sermons.
  But I was dismayed to find how much shelf space was given to attacking 
  others, often viciously---whether the political left, our modern American
  culture, or other religions.  A whole section was devoted to "Cults and the
  Occult," and as you might expect, Mormonism was right there under the same
  rubric and indictment (often by the same authors) as Satanism.  And I found
  I could either rent or buy (in English or Spanish) copies of The God Makers
  (that absurdly inaccurate, even libelous, but very popular and dangerous
  anti-Mormon film that uses exaclty the same techniques and even accusations
  of the Nazi films that scapegoated Jews in the 1930s).

  "It seems to me one major indication that a person is a genuine convert to
  Christ and his redemptive love is his lack of paranoia and anxiety ("Perfect
  love casteth out fear," I John 4:18).  I have always been pleased that the
  LDS Church has not engaged in attacks on other faiths, though I find a 
  disheartening increase in willingness of individual Mormons to engage in the
  same kinds of stereotyping and scapegoating---and even threats of coercive
  action---as the "religious right wing" has launched this year against the
  political left and American cultural and religious styles they don't like.
  It is a fearful irony that in so doing Mormons take common cause with the
  very people who have most slanderously attacked Mormons---people who would,
  if they had power, forcefully restrict Mormons' rights along with those of
  others they believe to be evil."

The above "sermon" was addressed to the LDS audience who usually subscribe
to This People's magazine, but would certainly apply to all of us who
rely on the mercies and grace of Jesus Christ to bring us back into His
arms.  

Even though the LDS Church claims devine authority to exercise the principles 
of the restored gospel---as in the days of Christ, the Church does not claim 
perfection and infallibility in how those with authoritative status have or do 
now lead the Church.  I, for one, do not wish to be labelled "Christian", if 
those who profess themselves as Christians attack my beliefs because they are 
intollerent (for example) of the way my religion may interpret Biblical 
scriptures of the same source to have a different meaning and implication 
than mainstream Christianity would give it.  Once again, being in the 
majority does NOT in and of itself PROVE anything except that your collective 
voice is louder.  That's really all the critics of the LDS Church have to stand
on in terms of the kind of Biblical interpretation used as proof to counter 
the LDS Church' interpretation!  Using someone elses biased research of truths 
and non-truths (whose to say what the mixture is?) as an authoritative tool to 
disprove or discredit is not being fair to anyone, least of all themselves. 
Let us simply agree to disagree, and share beliefs through adult discussion 
and conversation, thereby uplifting everyone.  

The Apollo fire was harsh, A Saturn V explosion would have been
hurtful but The Soviets winning would have been crushing. That could have
been *the* technological turning point for the US turning us
from Today's "We can do anything, we're *the* Super Power" to a much more
reserved attitude like the Soviet Program today.

Kennedy was gone by 68\69, the war was still on is the east, I think
the program would have stalled badly and the goal of the moon
by 70 would have been dead with Nasa trying to figure were they went wrong.
 
I speulate that:
+The Saturn program would have been pushed into
the 70s with cost over runs that would just be too evil. 
Nixon still wins.
+The Shuttle was never proposed and Skylab never built.
+By 73 the program stalled yet again under the fuel crisis.
+A string of small launches mark the mid seventies.
+By 76 the goal of a US man on the moon is dead and the US space program
drifts till the present day.

No.  That's *not* what I was complaining about, nor did I intend to
suggest that DEC was any better than SGI (let me tell you about the
Lynx some day, but be prepared with a large sedative if you do...).  My
comment regarding DEC was to indicate that I might be open to other vendors
that supported OpenGL, rather than deal further with SGI.

What I *am* annoyed about is the fact that we were led to believe that
we *would* be able to upgrade to a multiprocessor version of the
Crimson without the assistance of a fork lift truck.

I'm also annoyed about being sold *several* Personal IRISes at a
previous site on the understanding *that* architecture would be around
for a while, rather than being flushed.

Now I understand that SGI is responsible to its investors and has to
keep showing a positive quarterly bottom line (odd that I found myself
pressured on at least two occasions to get the business on the books
just before the end of the quarter), but I'm just a little tired of
getting boned in the process.

Maybe it's because my lab buys SGIs in onesies and twosies, so we
aren't entitled to a "peek under the covers" as the Big Kids (NASA,
for instance) are.  This lab, and I suspect that a lot of other labs
and organizations, doesn't have a load of money to spend on computers
every year, so we can't be out buying new systems on a regular basis.
The boxes that we buy now will have to last us pretty much through the
entire grant period of five years and, in some case, beyond.  That
means that I need to buy the best piece of equipment that I can when I
have the money, not some product that was built, to paraphrase one
previous poster's words, 'to fill a niche' to compete with some other
vendor.  I'm going to be looking at this box for the next five years.
And every time I look at it, I'm going to think about SGI and how I
could have better spent my money (actually *your* money, since we're
supported almost entirely by Federal tax dollars).

Now you'll have to pardon me while I go off and hiss and fume in a
corner somewhere and think dark, libelous thoughts.

							spl

Precisely.

There's no objective medicine; some people get marvellous results from
alternative therapy, others only respond to traditional medicine.

There's no objective physics; Einstein and Bohr have told us that.

There's no objective reality.  LSD should be sufficient to prove that.

I consider it to be a useful fiction; an abstract ideal we can strive
towards.  Like an ideal gas or a light inextensible string, it doesn't
actually exist; but we can talk about things as if they were like it, and not
be too far wrong.

Interesting is rigth.. I wonder if they will make a mention of her being an
astronaut in the credits.. I think it might help people connect the future of
space with the present.. And give them an idea that we must go into space..

The current mining regulations and fees were set in the 1800's!
What the so-called "eco-freaks" want to do is to simply bring those
fees in line with current economic reality.  Currently, mining companies
can get access to minerals on public lands for ridiculously low prices --
something like $50!  The mining lobby has for decades managed to block
any reform of these outdated fees.  In fact, the latest attempt to reform
them was again blocked -- President Clinton "compromised" by taking the
mining fee reforms out of his '94 budget, and plans to draft separate
legislation to fight that battle.
If you want to discuss this further, I suggest you take this to talk.environment.

A good summary has been posted (thanks), but I wanted to add another comment.
I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this, in 
connection with their proposal for an early manned landing.  Sorry I don't 
rember where I heard this, but I'm fairly sure it was somewhere reputable. 
Anyone else know anything on this angle?

Hrumph.  They didn't send _me_ anything :(

COMET (Commercial Experiment Transport) is to launch from Wallops Island
Virginia and orbit Earth for about 30 days. It is scheduled to come down
in the Utah Test & Training Range, west of Salt Lake City, Utah. I saw
a message in this group toward the end of March that it was to launch 
on March 27. Does anyone know if it launched on that day, or if not, 
when it is scheduled to launch and/or when it will come down.

I would also be interested in what kind(s) of payload(s) are onboard.

Thanks for your help.

Has anyone successfully converted Interleaf graphics to CGM, or even heard
of it being done????

We'd love to hear about it.

-Mike McConnell

I think APDA has something called MacWireFrame which is a full
wire-frame (and supposedly hidden-line removal) library.
I think it weighs in at $99 (but I've been wrong on an order
of magnitude before)

I can relate to that

					/h+
-- 
 -- Jon W{tte, h+@nada.kth.se, Mac Hacker Deluxe --

Actually, the story goes that Lucifer refused to bow before MAN as 
God commanded him to.  Lucifer was devoted to God.

Oh yeah, there is nothing in Genesis that says the snake was anything
more than a snake (well, a talking one...had legs at the time, too).

I don't think pointing out contradictions in STORIES is the best way
to show the error in theology:  if they think a supernatural entity
kicked the first humans out of paradise because they bit into a
fruit that gave them special powers...well, they might not respond
well to reason and logic.  :^)

Really?  I don't get it... Genesis first says that God created the
earth, then the animals, then humans; then it turns around and says
that humans were created before animals!  How can you escape this
contradiction?

Mine was beautiful for a year and a half.  Then it went <foomp>.  I bought
a ViewSonic 6FS instead.  Another great monitor, IMHO.

From: <tom>
Subject: computer cult

From scott Fri Apr 23 16:31:21 1993
Received: by igc.apc.org (4.1/Revision: 1.77 )
	id AA16121; Fri, 23 Apr 93 16:31:09 PDT
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 16:31:09 PDT
Message-Id: <9304232331.AA16121@igc.apc.org>
From: Scott Weikart <scott>
Sender: scott
To: cdplist
Subject: Next stand-off?
Status: R

Redwood City, CA (API) -- A tense stand-off entered its third week
today as authorities reported no progress in negotiations with
charismatic cult leader Steve Jobs.

Negotiators are uncertain of the situation inside the compound, but
some reports suggest that half of the hundreds of followers inside
have been terminated.  Others claim to be staying of their own free
will, but Jobs' persuasive manner makes this hard to confirm.

In conversations with authorities, Jobs has given conflicting
information on how heavily prepared the group is for war with the
industry.  At times, he has claimed to "have hardware which will blow
anything else away", while more recently he claims they have stopped
manufacturing their own.

Agents from the ATF (Apple-Taligent Forces) believe that the group is
equipped with serious hardware, including 486-caliber pieces and
possibly Canon equipment.

The siege has attracted a variety of spectators, from the curious to
other cultists.  Some have offered to intercede in negotiations,
including a young man who will identify himself only as "Bill" and
claims to be the "MS-iah".

Former members of the cult, some only recently deprogrammed, speak
hesitantly of their former lives, including being forced to work
20-hour days, and subsisting on Jolt and Twinkies.  There were
frequent lectures in which they were indoctrinated into a theory of
"interpersonal computing" which rejects traditional roles.

Late-night vigils on Chesapeake Drive are taking their toll on
federal marshals.  Loud rock and roll, mostly Talking Heads, blares
throughout the night.  Some fear that Jobs will fulfill his own
apocalyptic prophecies, a worry reinforced when the loudspeakers
carry Jobs' own speeches -- typically beginning with a chilling "I
want to welcome you to the 'Next World' ".

It still applies, except the astronomy these days is Very Long Baseline
Radio Astronomy coupled to GPS and Satellite Laser Ranging. The data
from NASA's and the Naval Observatory's (among others) is a vital 
source of data for studies into crustal dynamics, Earth rotation, and
purturbations. Every time there is a leap second added to the New Year,
remember the military and science are still co-habiting nicely. The
same VLBI was used to track Gallileo as it passed the Earth, and used
so little fuel that it can afford to observe Ida. 
 
]The "corrupted over and over" theory is pretty weak.  Comparison of the
]current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text
]has in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia.  This
]shouldn't be all that suprising; people who believe in a text in this manner
]are likely to makes some pains to make good copies.
 
Tell it to King James, mate.
 
]C. Wingate        + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
]                  +    but strife closed in the sod.
]mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
]tove!mangoe       +    the marv'lous peace of God."
 
If I read you right, you're saying in essence that, with a larger
economy, nations will have more discretionary funds to *waste*
on a lunar facility. That was certainly partially the case with Apollo, 
but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military,
scientific, or commercial reason for being rather than just a "we have 
the money, why not?" approach.

It's conceivable that Luna will have a military purpose, it's possible
that Luna will have a commercial purpose, but it's most likely that
Luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred
years at least. Therefore, Lunar bases should be predicated on funding
levels little different from those found for Antarctic bases. Can you
put a 200 person base on the Moon for $30 million a year? Even if you
use grad students?

Gary

True, except that I've known few fundies who had enough sense to
be embarrassed by Josh McDowell.

(Okay, maybe a cheap shot. But I'm in that kind of mood.)

The name is a working name only; quite unofficial.  The formal designation
is 1993 FW.

Depends. If you assume the existance of a working SSTO like DC, on billion
$$ would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the
moon. If some of that mass went to send equipment to make LOX for the
transfer vehicle, you could send a lot more. Either way, its a lot
more than needed.

This prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a SSTO, but it is
enough to do it if the vehicle exists.

  Allen

You misrepresent me, Selim.  The hard evidence for my statements about
his lack of objectivity are presented quite clearly in the book
"Orientalism" by Edward Said.  Edward Said, by the way, is a Christian,
not a Muslim.

Regarding Bernard Lewis:

Him being a Zionist gives him a political motive for his
giving misrepresentations and half-truths about Islam.

Read "Orientalism" by Edward Said -- see the evidence for yourself.

In fact, I may post some of it here (if it isn't too long).

I haven't read Lewis's article, so I can't comment directly upon it, and
have only spoken about his writings _in general_ so far, that his
political motives make him a biased writer on Islam.  His anti-Islamic
polemics, as I understand it, are often quite subtle and are often based
on telling half-truths.

Again, read "Orientalism" by Edward Said.  I am _not_ asking you to take
what I say on trust, in fact I am urging you not to do so but to get
this book (it is a well-known book) and check the evidence out for
_yourself_.

If slavery is _in reality_ (as opposed to in the practice of some
Muslims) opposed by Islam, then using slaves for sexual
purposes is necessarily opposed too.

I understand your point of view, Selim -- I think, rather, it is _us_
who are not getting through to _you_.

Some of the points you repeat above I have already answered before.

Regarding women, I have made posting after posting on this subject,
showing that Islam is not anti-woman, etc.  However, have you been
completely ignoring my postings or just missing them?  I just reposted a
very good one, under the title "Islam and Women", reposted from
soc.religion.islam.  If this has already disappeared from your site,
then please email me telling me so and I will email you a copy of this
excellent article.  

IMHO, your understanding of the issue of women in Islam is sadly deficient.

Regarding slaves, _my_ posting on slavery -- the second one I made,
which is a repost of an article I wrote early last year -- is based
completely on the Qur'an and contains numerous Qur'anic verses and
hadiths to support its point of view.

Our approaches are different -- you are arguing from a historical
standpoint and I am arguing directly from the teachings of the Qur'an
and hadiths.  Now, just because people say they are Muslims and perform
a particular action, does that automatically mean that their action is
part of Islam, even if it is opposed by the Qur'an and Sunnah?  No!  Of
course not.

Let me give you a concrete example, which might help clarify this for
you.  The Qur'an prohibits drinking.  Now, if a person says "I am a
Muslim" and then proceeds to drink a bottle of beer, does this now mean
that Islam teaches that people should drink beer?  Of course not, and
only an idiot would think so.

Do you see my point?

You are judging Islam here on capitalist terms.  Capitalism is an
ideology based largely on the assumption that people want to maximise
their wealth -- this assumption is in opposition to Islamic teachings.
To say Islam is bad because it is not capitalist is pretty unthinking --
Islam does not pretend to be capitalist and does not try to be
capitalist.  (This does not mean that Islam does not support a
free-market -- for it does in general -- but there are other parts of 
capitalism which are opposed to Islam as I understand it.)

One can postulate numerous reasons for this.  Your theory is that it is
because Islam is not secularist and capitalist, etc. etc.

Selim, I will give you a clear historical example to show you the
fallacy of your views if you think (as you obviously do) that
Islam => lack of education and power.

For a large part of history, the Islamic world was very powerful.  For a
significant section of history, the Islamic world was the foremost in
the sciences.  So to say that Islam is, for example, anti-education is
completely absurd.  You try to blame this situation on Islam -- history
shows that your conclusion is false and that, instead, there must be
other reasons for this situation.

Well, Selim, your viewpoint on women in Islam makes me question the extent
of your knowledge of Islam.  I really think you are not
knowledgeable enough to be able to judge whether the Muslims are
following the Qur'an or not.

The Islamic world was at the forefront of the world in science at one
stage -- yet somehow, in your theory, it is by "following the Qur'an"
that Muslims are backwards in education.  Selim, it is _your_ thesis
that is anti-historical, for you conveniently overlook this historical
fact which contradicts your theory. 

You have certainly not shown this; you have merely stated it.
So far, it seems to me that your view on Islam being anti-education is
quite contrary to history.  That you are so convinced of your views
makes me wonder just how objectively you are trying to look at all of
this.

I think, Selim, you should consider taking your own advice.

Here too.

Selim, you have such conviction of your viewpoint, yet you demonstrate
ignorance, not only of Islam but also of Islamic history (particularly
with respect to Muslims being leaders of science till about 1400 or so I
think).  Yet you say that your viewpoint is based on history!

Selim, if I remember right, you say in one of your earlier posts that
you are an apostate from Islam.  I think you should slow down and start
thinking clearly about the issues, and start _reading_ some of our
postings about Islam rather than ignoring them as you so obviously
have.

On sunsite.unc.edu in pub/multimedia/utilities/unix find 
 mpeg_play-2.0.tar.Z.

I find for mono it works best as mpeg_play -dither threshold 
   though you can use            mpeg_play -dither mono

Face it, this is not be the best viewing situation.

Also someone has made a patch for mpeg_play that gives two more mono
modes  (mono2 and halftone).

They are by jan@pandonia.canberra.edu.au (Jan Newmarch).
And the patch can be found on csc.canberra.edu.au (137.92.1.1) under
/pub/motif/mpeg2.0.mono.patch.

I am doing a political science paper on the funding of NASA and pork-barrel 
politics.  I would be interested in information about funding practices and
histories of some of the major programs (Apollo, STS, SSF, etc) and the
funding of SSTO to contrast.  Could someone please recommend some sources
that would be useful?  Thank you.

Kent:

     You say that

                      ^^^^^^^^^
                        Please don't!  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     Name just three *really* competing Rosicrucian Orders. I have
probably spent more time than you doing the same. 

     None of them are spin-offs from O.T.O. The opposite may be the
case. 

Study Harder,

   > Why Paul, it's obvious.
   > Once chlorine chemistry has been banned on Earth,
   > as is being advocated by some groups, Ti prices will

   > :-) :-) :-) 

   Well, there already is a sulfate process for TiO2 purification.  The
   chlorine process is cleaner, however, and for that reason is achieving
   dominance in the marketplace.

Darn, caught by the white hot heat of technological progress again...

   Most Ti is used in pigment, btw (as the oxide), where it replaced
   white lead pigment some decades ago.  Very little is reduced to the
   metal.

Spoilsport. Hence the need for increasing fashion
emphasis on anodise Ti jewelry...

   > Seriously, I'd say there is a flaw in Gary's analysis
   > in that he assumes an export oriented economy, maybe
   > the lunatics will just want some native Ti for local
   > use...

   Which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are
   there at all (and, why their children would want to stay.)

I did not evade the issue at all. I clearly stated that
this would be from diabolical foresight in establishing
a sheltered industrial base for the upcoming Great War ;-)
Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method :-)

See the article "An Efficient Ray-Polygon Intersection," p. 390 in
Graphics Gems (ISBN 0-12-286165-5).  The second step, intersecting the
polygon, does what you want.  There is sample code in the book.

							spl

: 
: Can you please point to something, anything, that proves to me that
: the universe cannot possibly be explained without accepting as a fact
: the existence of a god in precisely the way your holy book describes?
: 
: Can you please convince me that your religion is more than a very
: cleverly-constructed fable, and that it does indeed have some bearing
: on my own personal day-to-day life?

Would you consider the word of an eye-witness (Peter) to testify to the
events surrounding Jesus' life?

 2Pe 1 16 ¶ We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you
 about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were 
 eyewitnesses of his majesty.

 2Pe 1 17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the
 voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom 
 I love; with him I am well pleased."¹

 2Pe 1 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we
 were with him on the sacred mountain.

 2Pe 1 19 ¶ And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and
 you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark
 place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

This is a documented testimony. Perhaps further research on your part is
warranted before making more statements. There is considerably more to study
in Peters' two books of testimony regarding the Messiah. It is well worth 
your time, Mr. Brian.

 Opps!  typed in the phone numbers wrong.  Here are the correct numbers.

                                            303-530-9000

                                       505-277-6563

Okay, I'll bite. I should probably leave this alone, but what the heck...

But didn't he credit the actual flag design to a party member - some dentist or
other? I believe he gives such credit in Mein Kampf.

Well, I'm no expert, but all of the histories of Nazi Germany assert this. They
make reference to several scandals that occurred long before "the night of the
long knives". The impression that I got was that homosexuality in portions of
the SA was common knowledge. Also, a book (by a homosexual author whose name
escapes me at the moment) called "Homosexuals in History" asserts that Roehm
and Heines were homosexuals, as well as others in Roehm's SA circle.

Well, you're the one who is in Germany. If you don't believe the history books,
look up the primary sources yourself. Those of us outside of Germany do not
have access to these. You do. It seems to me that there were plenty of
documented instances - several scandals, the fact that on the "knight of the
long knives" several SA members (including Heines) were found sleeping
together, etc. Also I believe some people were complaining about the SA's
homosexual activities (seducing young boys, etc). The histories that I've 
read make a very convincing case. None of this sounds like urban legend to me. 

I know next to nothing about Irving and nothing about Funk. What precisely do
you know, that would contradict all of the other history books that I have
read concerning the existence of homosexual Nazis? Are you trying to say that 
all historians are taking part in an anti-homosexual smear? What about 
homosexual writers who agree with the official history? Don't you think they 
would have found out the truth by now if Roehm and Heines were not homosexuals?
I would think they would want to disassociate homosexuality from Nazism. No one 
should use any connection between the two to bash homosexuals in any case. 

If you are going to challenge *all* historians on this point (not just Irving),
then the burden of proof is on you. Track down the references. Find out where
the stories originate from. Again, you are the one in Germany, close to
archival material - most people on the net are not.

Eh? What is your agenda here? To prove that the Nazis were heterosexuals, so
that you can bash heterosexuals? Does it bother you that some of the Nazis
might have been homosexuals? Does this make all homosexuals bad if this is
true? Of course not. And what about bisexuals? Are they half-Nazis?

I don't know why it would be so difficult to believe that some Nazis were
homosexuals. The German officer corps before WW1, for instance, was notorious
for its homosexuality. There were numerous scandals which rocked the German
govt. during the late 19th and early 20th century. Many of the Kaiser's friends
were prosecuted - the Kaiser was no homosexual, but the Germany army had a long
tradition of tolerating homosexuality, going far back into Prussian history -
back to Frederick the Great at least, who was himself a homosexual. Roehm was a 
product of this Prussian officer tradition, and the old German army (like the
English public school system), being a well known center of homosexuality,
would have been quite willing to overlook Roehm's homosexuality.

In addition, some Nazis complained of homosexuality in the Hitler Youth. The
Hitler Youth swallowed up all pre-Nazi youth groups, and some of the various 
pre-war Vandervogel, Bund, and Volkish youth groups were known to promote 
homoerotic ideals and friendship, and in many cases, homosexuality itself. So 
it seems to me not unlikely that there were plenty of homosexual Nazis, 
regardless of the official Nazi dogmas concerning the "evils" of homosexuality.
Why should this suprise anyone? Homosexuality has always existed, in all 
societies - it would be most unusual if the Nazis were an exception.

No, I don't have any sources for you, as I think the only kind of proof you
will accept would be citations from archival material, and I do not have access 
to these. Nor do I intend to reread every book on the Nazis and on modern
homosexuality that I have ever read - I don't have the time. Nothing is
stopping you, however, from chasing down those sources. Until you prove
otherwise, though, I will stick with the established histories.

SEI Level 5 (the highest level -- the SEI stands for Software
Engineering Institute).  I'm not sure, but I believe that this rating
only applies to the flight software.  Also keep in mind that it was
*not* achieved through the use of sophisticated tools, but rather
through a 'brute force and ignorance' attack on the problem during the
Challenger standdown - they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
did the whole process by hand.  I would not consider receiving a 'Warning'
status on systems which are not yet in use would detract much (if
anything) from such a rating -- I'll have to get the latest copy of
the guidelines to make sure (they just issued new ones, I think).

Also keep in mind that the SEI levels are concerned primarily with
control of the software process; the assumption is that a
well controlled process will produce good software.  Also keep in mind
that SEI Level 5 is DAMNED HARD.  Most software in this country is
produced by 'engineering practicies' that only rate an SEI Level 1 (if
that). 

-- 

   We publish plenty kiddo,you just have to look.

If I'm not mistaken, this is the usual sort of precaution against loss of
communications.  That timer is counting down continuously; if it ever hits
zero, that means Galileo hasn't heard from Earth in a suspiciously long
time and it may be Galileo's fault... so it's time to go into a fallback
mode that minimizes chances of spacecraft damage and maximizes chances
of restoring contact.  I don't know exactly what-all Galileo does in such
a situation, but a common example is to switch receivers, on the theory
that maybe the one you're listening with has died.

   >This is turning into 'what's a moonbase good for', and I ought not
   >to post when I've a hundred some odd posts to go, but I would
   >think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic.
   >
   >Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
   >larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry, eventually,
   >they will simply be able to afford more stuff.

   If I read you right, you're saying in essence that, with a larger
   economy, nations will have more discretionary funds to *waste* on a
   lunar facility. That was certainly partially the case with Apollo,
   but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing
   military, scientific, or commercial reason for being rather than
   just a "we have the money, why not?" approach.

Ah, but the whole point is that money spent on a lunar base is not
wasted on the moon. It's not like they'd be using $1000 (1000R?) bills
to fuel their moon-dozers. The money to fund a lunar base would be
spent in the country to which the base belonged. It's a way of funding
high-tech research, just like DARPA was a good excuse to fund various
fields of research, under the pretense that it was crucial to the
defense of the country, or like ESPRIT is a good excuse for the EC to
fund research, under the pretense that it's good for pan-European
cooperation.

Now maybe you think that government-funded research is a waste of
money (in fact, I'm pretty sure you do), but it does count as
investment spending, which does boost the economy (and just look at
the size of that multiplier :->).

So how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the
U.S. government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida? 

When the Lunar Society's $500M estimate of the cost of a lunar colony was
mentioned at Making Orbit, somebody asked Jerry Pournelle "have you talked
to Bill Gates?".  The answer:  "Yes.  He says that if he were going to
sink that much money into it, he'd want to run it -- and he doesn't have
the time."

(Somebody then asked him about Perot.  Answer:  "Having Ross Perot on your
board may be a bigger problem than not having the money.")

If all of those are "is"'s of identity, both syllogisms are valid.
If, however, B is a predicate, then the second syllogism is invalid.
(The first syllogism, as you have pointed out, is valid--whether B
is a predicate or designates an individual.)

"I hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have
no properties."
"Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the
space. To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved,
is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. I,
for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view." - Nikola Tesla

----
 ET  "Tesla was 100 years ahead of his time. Perhaps now his time comes."

A 3DO marketing rep. recently offered a Phillips marketing rep. a $100
bet that 3DO would have boxes on the market on schedule.  The Phillips
rep. declined the bet, probably because he knew that 3DO players are
already in pre-production manufacturing runs, 6 months before the
commercial release date.

By the time of commercial release, there will be other manufacturers of
3DO players announced and possibly already tooling up production.  Chip
sets will be in full production.  The number of software companies
designing titles for the box will be over 300.

How do I know this?  I was at a bar down the road from 3DO headquarters
last week.  Some folks were bullshitting a little too loudly about
company business.

 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[...]

Note that I _never_ said that depression and the destruction of the
nuclear family is due _solely_ to extra-marital sex.  I specifically
said that it was "a prime cause" of this, not "the prime cause" or "the
only cause" of this -- I recognize that there are probably other factors
too, but I think that extra-marital sex and subsequent destabilization
of the family is probably a significant factor to the rise in
psychological problems, including depression, in the West in the 20th
century.

Archive-name: space/data
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:07 $

ONLINE AND OTHER SOURCES OF IMAGES, DATA, ETC.

INTRODUCTION

    A wide variety of images, data, catalogs, information releases, and
    other material dealing with space and astronomy may be found on the net.
    A few sites offer direct dialup access or remote login access, while the
    remainder support some form of file transfer. Many sites are listed as
    providing 'anonymous FTP'. This refers to the File Transfer Protocol on
    the Internet. Sites not connected to the Internet cannot use FTP
    directly, but there are a few automated FTP servers which operates via
    email. Send mail containing only the word HELP to ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com
    or bitftp@pucc.princeton.edu, and the servers will send you instructions
    on how to make requests.

    The sources with the broadest selection of material are the NASA Ames
    SPACE archive and the National Space Science Data Center.

    Don't even ask for images to be posted to the net. The data volume is
    huge and nobody wants to spend the time on it.

VIEWING IMAGES

    The possible combinations of image formats and machines is forebodingly
    large, and I won't attempt to cover common formats (GIF, etc.) here. To
    read PDS and VICAR (and many other) formats on Unix systems running X,
    use XV 2.11, available by anonymous FTP from export.lcs.mit.edu
    (18.24.0.12) in contrib/xv-2.11.tar.Z and the other standard X11 FTP
    sites.

    The FAQ for the Usenet group alt.binaries.pictures discusses image
    formats and how to get image viewing software. A copy of this document
    is available by anonymous FTP from the Usenet FAQ archives at
    pit-manager.mit.edu (18.72.1.58), in directory
    pub/usenet/alt.binaries.pictures.

ONLINE ARCHIVES

    NASA AMES

    Extensive archives are maintained at NASA Ames and are available via
    anonymous FTP or an email server. These archives include many images and
    a wide variety of documents including this FAQ list, NASA press
    releases, shuttle launch advisories, and mission status reports. Please
    note that these are NOT maintained on an official basis.

    FTP users should connect to ames.arc.nasa.gov (128.102.18.3) and look in
    pub/SPACE. pub/SPACE/Index contains a listing of files available in the
    archive (the index is about 200K by itself).

    To access the archives by email, send a letter to
    archive-server@ames.arc.nasa.gov (or ames!archive-server). In the
    subject of your letter (or in the body), use commands like:

	send SPACE Index
	send SPACE SHUTTLE/ss01.23.91.

    The capitalization of the subdirectory names is important. All are in
    caps. Only text files are handled by the email server at present; use
    one of the FTP email servers described in the introduction to this
    section for images or programs.

    The Magellan Venus and Voyager Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus CD-ROM image
    disks have been put online in the CDROM and CDROM2 directories. The
    disks will be rotated on a weekly basis. Thousands of images are
    available in these collections.

    The GIF directory contains images in GIF format. The VICAR directory
    contains Magellan images in VICAR format (these are also available in
    the GIF directory). A PC program capable of displaying these files is
    found in the IMDISP directory (see the item "VIEWING IMAGES" below).

    The NASA media guide describes the various NASA centers and how to
    contact their public affairs officers; this may be useful when pursuing
    specific information. It's in MISC/media.guide.

    Any problems with the archive server should be reported to Peter Yee
    (yee@ames.arc.nasa.gov).

    NASA ASTROPHYSICS DATA SYSTEM

    The ADS is a distributed data retrieval system which is easy to use and
    provides uniform access to ground-based and space-based astronomy data
    from NASA data centers across the country. It currently has over 140
    data catalogs of radio, infrared, optical, UV, and X-ray data which can
    be queried by position or any other parameter in the catalog. The ADS
    also provides tools to manipulate and plot tabular results. In addition,
    ADS has a Beta version of an Abstracts Service which allows users to
    query over 125,000 abstracts of astronomy papers since 1975 by authors,
    keywords, title words, or abstract text words.

    ADS use requires direct Internet access. For more info and to sign up to
    become a user, email ads@cuads.coloradu.edu. The User's Guide and
    "QuickStart" Guide are available by anonymous FTP to sao-ftp.harvard.edu
    in directory pub/ads/ADS_User_Guide (PostScript files).

    Contact Carolyn Stern Grant (stern@cfa.harvard.edu).

    NASA JET PROPULSION LAB (MISSION INFORMATION AND IMAGES)

    pubinfo.jpl.nasa.gov (128.149.6.2) is an anonymous FTP site operated by
    the JPL Public Information Office, containing news releases, status
    reports, fact sheets, images, and other data on JPL missions. It may
    also be reached by modem at (818)-354-1333 (no parity, 8 data bits, 1
    stop bit).

    Contact newsdesk@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov or phone (818)-354-7170.

    NASA LANGLEY (TECHNICAL REPORTS)

    techreports.larc.nasa.gov is an anonymous FTP site offering technical
    reports. To get started, cd to directory pub/techreports/larc/92 and
    retrieve files README and abstracts.92. Most files are compressed
    PostScript. The reports are also in a WAIS database with the following
    description:

	(:source
	 :version 3
	 :ip-name "techreports.larc.nasa.gov"
	 :tcp-port 210
	 :database-name "nasa-larc-abs"
	 :cost 0.00
	 :cost-unit :free
	 :maintainer "M.L.Nelson@LaRC.NASA.GOV"
	 :description "NASA Langley Research Center Technical Reports

    Contact tr-admin@techreports.larc.nasa.gov.

    NASA SPACELINK

    SpaceLink is an online service located at Marshall Space Flight Center
    in Huntsville, Alabama. The system is specifically designed for
    teachers. The data base is arranged to provide easy access to current
    and historical information on NASA aeronautics, space research, and
    technology transfer information. Also included are suggested classroom
    activities that incorporate information on NASA projects to teach a
    number of scientific principles. Unlike bulletin board systems, NASA
    Spacelink does not provide for interaction between callers. However it
    does allow teachers and other callers to leave questions and comments
    for NASA which may be answered by regular mail. Messages are answered
    electronically, even to acknowledge requests which will be fulfilled by
    mail. Messages are generally handled the next working day except during
    missions when turnaround times increase. The mail system is closed-loop
    between the user and NASA.

    SpaceLink also offers downloadable shareware and public domain programs
    useful for science educators as well as space graphics and GIF images
    from NASA's planetary probes and the Hubble Telescope.

    You can dial in at (205)-895-0028 (300/1200/2400/9600(V.32) baud, 8
    bits, no parity, 1 stop bit), or telnet to spacelink.msfc.nasa.gov
    (128.158.13.250, also known as xsl.msfc.nasa.gov) if you're on the
    Internet. Anonymous FTP capability (password guest) is now available.

    Most of this information is also available from the Ames server in
    directory SPACELINK.

    NATIONAL SPACE SCIENCE DATA CENTER (NSSDC)

    The National Space Science Data Center is the official clearinghouse for
    NASA data. The data catalog (*not* the data itself) is available online.
    Internet users can telnet to nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.36.23) and
    log in as 'NODIS' (no password). You can also get the catalog by sending
    email to 'request@nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov'.

    You can also dial in at (301)-286-9000 (300, 1200, or 2400 baud, 8 bits,
    no parity, one stop). At the "Enter Number:" prompt, enter MD and
    carriage return. When the system responds "Call Complete," enter a few
    more carriage returns to get the "Username:" and log in as 'NODIS' (no
    password).

    The system is menu-driven; topics available as of 3/93 are:

	1   -	Master Directory - NASA & Global Change
	2   -	Personnel Information Management System
	3   -	Nimbus-7 GRID TOMS Data
	4   -	Interplanetary Medium Data (OMNI)
	5   -	Request data and/or information from NSSDC
	6   -	Geophysical Models
	7   -	CANOPUS Newsletter
	8   -	International Ultraviolet Explorer Data Request
	9   -	CZCS Browse and Order Utility
	10  -	Astronomical Data Center (ADC)
	11  -	STEP Bulletin Board Service
	12  -	Standards and Technology Information System
	13  -	Planetary Science & Magellan Project Information
	14  -	Other Online Data Services at NSSDC
	15  -	CD-ROMS Available at NSSDC

    For users with Internet access, datasets are made available via
    anonymous FTP once you select the desired datasets from the online
    catalog. For other users, data may be ordered on CD-ROM and in other
    formats. Among the many types of data available are Voyager, Magellan,
    and other planetary images, Earth observation data, and star catalogs.
    Viewers for Macintosh and IBM systems are also available. As an example
    of the cost, an 8 CD set of Voyager images is $75. Data may ordered
    online, by email, or by physical mail. The postal address is:

	National Space Science Data Center
	Request Coordination Office
	Goddard Space Flight Center
	Code 633
	Greenbelt, MD  20771

	Telephone: (301) 286-6695

	Email address:	 request@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov

    SPACE TELESCOPE SCIENCE INSTITUTE ELECTRONIC INFORMATION SERVICE

    stsci.edu (130.167.1.2) has a large amount of information about the
    Hubble Space Telescope available by anonymous FTP, such as status
    reports and newsletters, in addition to material oriented towards HST
    observers and proposers. Get the top level README file to begin with.
    Contact Pete Reppert (reppert@stsci.edu) or Chris O'Dea
    (odea@stsci.edu).

    STARCAT

    The Space Telescope European Coordination Facility, at ESO/Garching
    provides on-line access to a huge astronomical database, featuring

	- Observation log files of several satellites/telescopes
	    (IUE,IRAS,HST,NTT...).
	- Spectra and images (IUE, HST).
	- Most of the astronomical catalogues (SAO, HR, NGC, PPM, IRAS,
	    Veron, GSC and many others, more than 50) in a very convenient
	    way (give center+radius+kind of objects, and you get the
	    corresponding files!).

    Log on as ``starcat'' (no password) on node stesis.hq.eso.org
    (134.171.8.100) or on STESIS (DECnet). The files created can be
    retreived by FTP. Contact: Benoit Pirenne, bpirenne@eso.org (phone +49
    89 320 06 433) at ST-ECF

    ASTRONOMICAL DATABASES

    The full SAO stellar database is *NOT* available online, probably due to
    the 40 MB size. It may be ordered on magnetic tape from the NSSDC. A
    subset containing position and magnitude only is available by FTP (see
    "Astronomy Programs" below).

    nic.funet.fi (128.214.6.100) has a large collection of astronomical
    programs for many types of computers, databases of stars and deep sky
    objects, and general astronomy information in directory /pub/astro. This
    site is mainly for European users, but overseas connections are
    possible.

    The Ames archives contain a database of 8,436 galaxies including name,
    RA, declination, magnitude, and radial velocity in MISC/galaxy.dat.
    Supplied by Wayne Hayes (wayne@csri.utoronto.ca).

    iris1.ucis.dal.ca (129.173.18.107) has a number of GIFs from Voyager,
    Hubble, and other sources available by anonymous FTP in pub/gif (most of
    this data is also in SPACE/GIF on the Ames server). Please restrict
    access to 5pm - 8am Atlantic time.

    pomona.claremont.edu has the Yale Bright Star catalog for anonymous FTP
    in directory [.YALE_BSC]. Contact James Dishaw
    (jdishaw@hmcvax.claremont.edu).

    The Hubble Guide Star catalog is available on CD-ROM for the Mac and PC
    for $49.95 US (catalog # ST101).

	Astronomical Society of the Pacific
	390 Ashton Ave.
	San Francisco, CA 94112
	Phone: (415) 337-2624 9 AM - 3 PM Pacific Time
	FAX: (415) 337-5205

    For German (and possibly other European) readers, Jost Jahn has a
    service to distribute astronomical data to interested amateurs at cost.
    About 30-40 catalogs are available for DM 6..8/disk. Several floppy disk
    formats are available. Because of the expense of receiving email on his
    system, he asks that you contact him by physical mail:

	Jost Jahn
	Neustaedter Strasse 11
	W-3123 Bodenteich
	GERMANY
	Phone: FRG-5824-3197

    ASTRONOMY PROGRAMS

    Various astronomy-related programs and databases posted to the net in
    the past are archived for anonymous FTP at multiple sites, including
    ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9). Also see the ASTRO-FTP list posted to sci.astro
    monthly, which is more complete than this list.

    Astonomical/Space-related sources of interest in comp.sources.unix:

    Volume 8:	    phoon	moon phase and date routines
    Volume 12,13:   starchart	starchart program & Yale Star data
    Volume 15:	    moontool	shows moon phase picture on Suns
    Volume 16:	    sao		reduced SAO catalog

    Astonomical/Space-related sources of interest in comp.sources.misc:

    Volume  8:	    moon	another moon phase program
    Volume 11:	    starchart	starchart program, version 3.2
    Volume 11:	    n3emo-orbit orbit: track earth satellites
    Volume 12:	    starchart2	starchart program, update to version 3.2.1
    Volume 13:	    jupmoons	plotter for Jupiter's major moons [in perl]
    Volume 13:	    lunisolar	lunisolar (not sure what this does)
    Volume 14:	    ephem-4.21	astronomical ephemeris, v4.21
    Volume 14:	    n3emo-orbit patch to orbit 3.7
    Volume 18:	    planet	planet generation simulator

    Elwood Downey (e_downey@tasha.cca.cr.rockwell.com), the author of
    "ephem", has offered to mail copies to people who can't find it on one
    of the archives.

    XSAT, an X Window System based satellite tracking program, is
    available by anonymous FTP from export.lcs.mit.edu (18.24.0.12) in
    contrib/xsat1.0.tar.Z. Contact Dave Curry (davy@ecn.purdue.edu)
    for more information.

    Xsky, a computerized sky atlas for the X Window System, is available for
    anonymous FTP on arizona.edu in the directory [.SOFTWARE.UNIX.XSKY] as
    xsky.tarz. Contact Terry R. Friedrichsen (terry@venus.sunquest.com) for
    more information.

    The "Variable Stars Analysis Software Archive" is available via
    anonymous FTP from kauri.vuw.ac.nz (130.195.11.3) in directory
    pub/astrophys. This is intended for specialists in this field, and they
    would appreciate people from outside New Zealand confining their FTP
    access to the astrophys directory, as they pay a significant amount for
    Internet access. Contents are relatively sparse at present due to the
    youth of the archive - contributions are encouraged. Contact the archive
    administrator, Timothy Banks (bankst@kauri.vuw.ac.nz) for more
    information.

    The "IDL Astronomy Users Library" is available by anonymous FTP from
    idlastro.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.57.82). This is a central repository for
    general purpose astronomy procedures written in IDL, a commercial image
    processing, plotting, and programming language. Contact Wayne Landsman
    (landsman@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov) for more information.

    ORBITAL ELEMENT SETS

    The most recent orbital elements from the NASA Prediction Bulletins are
    carried on the Celestial BBS, (513)-427-0674. Documentation and tracking
    software are also available on this system. The Celestial BBS may be
    accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, or 2400 baud using 8 data bits, 1
    stop bit, no parity.

    Orbital element sets are available via anonymous FTP from the
    following sites:

    archive.afit.af.mil (129.92.1.66)	    NASA,TVRO,Shuttle
    directory: /pub/space

    ftp.funet.fi (128.214.6.100)	    NASA,TVRO,Molczan,CelBBS,
    directory: /pub/astro/pc/satel	    Shuttle (*)

    kilroy.jpl.nasa.gov (128.149.1.165)     NASA,Molczan
    directory: /pub/space/

    SPACE DIGEST ARCHIVES

    Copies of back issues of Space Digest are archived on
    LISTSERV@UGA.BITNET. Send mail containing the message "INDEX SPACE" to
    get an index of files; send it the message "GET filename filetype" to
    get a particular file.

LANDSAT AND NASA PHOTOS

    You can get black-and-white 1:1M prints, negatives, or positives for
    $10, $18, $12 respectively for any Landsat data more than 2 years old
    from EDC, (Eros (Earth Resources Orbiting Satellite) Data Center). Call
    them at (605)-594-6511. You get 80 meter resolution from the MSS
    scanner, 135x180 kilometers on a picture 135x180 mm in size. I think you
    have to select one band from (green, red, near IR, second near IR), but
    I'm not sure. Digitial data is also available at higher prices.

    Transparencies of all NASA photos available to the public can be
    borrowed from the NASA photo archive; you can have copies or prints
    made.

	 NASA Audio-Visual Facility
	 918 North Rengstorff Ave
	 Mountain View, CA  94043
	 (415)-604-6270

PLANETARY MAPS

    The USGS address for maps of the planets is:

    U.S. Geological Survey,
    Distribution Branch,
    Box 25286, Federal Center, Bldg. 41
    Denver, CO 80225

    Maps cost $2.40 to $3.10 per sheet (a few come in sets of 2 or 3 sheets).

    The best global maps of Mars based on Viking images are 1:15,000,000
    scale in 3 sheets. These maps are:

    I-1535 (2 sheets only) - relief, albedo, names
    I-1535
    I-1618 (3 sheets) - relief, names
    I-2030 (3 sheets) - relief, topographic contours
    I-1802-A,B,C (3 sheets) - geology

    There are many other maps as well: 30 sheets at 1:5,000,000 scale in
    relief, albedo, geology, photomosaic forms (not all 30 sheets available
    in all formats); 140 sheets at 1:2,000,000 scale as photomosaics of the
    whole planet, about 100 sheets of interesting sites at 1:500,000 scale
    in photomosaic format, and lots of special sheets.

    Then there are maps of Mercury, Venus, the Moon, the four Galilean
    Satellites, six moons of Saturn and five of Uranus. [Phil Stooke
    (stooke@vaxr.sscl.uwo.ca), the author of this item, has offered to
    respond to email requests for information on any topic relating to lunar
    and planetary maps.]

COMETARY ORBIT DATA

    The Central Bureau for Astronomical Telegrams and the Minor Planet
    Center announce the sixth edition of the Catalogue of Cometary Orbits in
    IAU Circular 4935. The catalogue contains 1292 entries which represent
    all known comets through November 1989 and is 96 pages long.
    Non-subscribers to the Circulars may purchase the catalogue for $15.00
    while the cost to subscribers is $7.50. The basic catalogue in ASCII
    along with a program to extract specific orbits and calculate
    ephemerides is available on MS-DOS 5.25-inch 2S2D diskette at a cost of
    $75.00 (the program requires an 8087 math coprocessor). The catalogue
    alone is also available by e-mail for $37.50 or on magnetic tape for
    $300.00.

    Except for the printed version of the catalogue, the various magnetic
    media or e-mail forms of the catalogue do not specifically meantion
    non-subscribers. It is possible that these forms of the catalogue may
    not be available to non-subscribers or that their prices may be more
    expensive than those given. Mail requests for specific information and
    orders to:

	Central Bureau for Astronomical Telegrams
	Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory
	Cambridge, MA 02138, USA

Note for newbies:  The Delta Clipper project is geared towards producing a
single staget to orbit, reusable launch vehicle.  The DC-X vehicle is a 1/3
scale vehicle designed to test some of the concepts invovled in SSTO.  It is 
currently undergoing tests.  The DC-Y vehicle would be a full scale 
experimental vehicle capable of reaching orbit.  It has not yet been funded.

On April 6th, Rocky Nelson of MacDonnell Douglas gave a talk entitled 
"Optimizing Techniques for Advanced Space Missions" here at the University of
Illinois. Mr Nelson's job involves using software to simulate trajectories and
determine the optimal trajectory within given requirements.  Although he is
not directly involved with the Delta Clipper project, he has spent time with 
them recently, using his software for their applications.  He thus used 
the DC-Y project for most of his examples.  While I don't think the details
of implicit trajectory simulation are of much interest to the readers (I hope
they aren't - I fell asleep during that part), I think that many of you will
be interested in some of the details gleaned from the examples.

The first example given was the maximization of payload for a polar orbit.  The
main restriction is that acceleration must remain below 3 Gs.  I assume that
this is driven by passenger constraints rather than hardware constraints, but I
did not verify that.  The Delta Clipper Y version has 8 engines - 4 boosters
and 4 sustainers.  The boosters, which have a lower isp, are shut down in 
mid-flight.  Thus, one critical question is when to shut them down.  Mr Nelson
showed the following plot of acceleration vs time:
                  ______
3 G         /|   /      |
           / |  /       |          As ASCII graphs go, this is actually fairly 
          /  | /        |	   good.  The big difference is that the lines
2 G      /   |/         |          made by the  /  should be curves which are
        /               |          concave up.  The data is only approximate, as
       /                |          the graph wasn't up for very long.
1 G   /                 |
                        |
                        |
0 G                     |

             ^          ^
           ~100 sec    ~400 sec

As mentioned before, a critical constraint is that G levels must be kept below
3.  Initially, all eight engines are started.  As the vehicle  burns fuel the
accelleration increases.  As it gets close to 3G, the booster engines are 
throtled back.  However, they quickly become inefficient at low power, so it
soon makes more sense to cut them off altogether.  This causes the dip in 
accelleration at about 100 seconds.  Eventually the remaining sustainer engines
bring the G level back up to about 3 and then hold it there until they cut
out entirely.

The engine cutoff does not acutally occur in orbit.  The trajectory is aimed
for an altitude slightly higher than the 100nm desired and the last vestiges of
air drag slow the vehicle slightly, thus lowering the final altitude to 
that desired.

Questions from the audience:  (paraphrased)

Q:  Would it make sense to shut down the booster engines in pairs, rather than
    all at once?

A:  Very perceptive.  Worth considering.  They have not yet done the simulation.    Shutting down all four was part of the problem as given.

Q:  So what was the final payload for this trajectory?

A:  Can't tell us.  "Read Aviation Leak."  He also apparently had a good 
    propulsion example, but was told not to use it.  

My question:  Does anyone know if this security is due to SDIO protecting
national security or MD protecting their own interests?

The second example was reentry simulation, from orbit to just before the pitch
up maneuver.  The biggest constraint in this one is aerodynamic heating, and 
the parameter they were trying to maximize was crossrange.  He showed graphs
of heating using two different models, to show that both were very similar,
and I think we were supposed to assume that this meant they were very accurate.
The end result was that for a polar orbit landing at KSC, the DC-Y would have
about 30 degrees of crossrange and would start it's reentry profile about 
60 degrees south latitude.

I would have asked about the landing maneuvers, but he didn't know about that
aspect of the flight profile.

What are the main advantages of this method?  I have seen it described, and
the algiorithm seems a  little bit long.  I developed my own method, which
requires that the points be in a counter-clockwise order, and returns
whether you are looking at the back or the front, similar to the plane eqn
method.  It uses few calculations however, basically it is several
comparisons.  The only disadvantage I see is that it must be done after the
transformation from view coordinates to coordinates to display on the
screen, which means that a little more calculation isneeded beforehand.  My
method basically figures out whether the points that will appear on the
screen are clockwise or counterclockwise.  When looking at the back of
something, the points occur in an opposite direction from the front, so
merely by figuring out which way the points go, you can tell whether you are
looking at the back or front of a 2d polygon.  Has anyone heard of this
method before?  It is so simple, I doubt i am the first to think of it.

Thanks for typing that in, Steven.  Sounds like a "fall back and
regroup" strategy session.

I wanted to add that my copy of the brochure arrived with a flattering
cover letter:

"Invitations are being extended to those who have demonstrated a
strong committment to space program development and have been
influential in its advancement.  We sincerely hope you will be able to
attend."

Wow! I wonder which of my contributions to the conquest of space
convinced them to send me this letter?

I hope you decide to go, Pat.  The Net can use some eyes and ears
there...

Oops, sorry, my words, not the words of the Qur'an.

Note that "(the celestial bodies)" in the above verse is an
interpolation (which is why it is in brackets) -- it is the translator's 
(incorrect, IMHO) interpretation.

Here is Maurice Bucaille's translation (he studied Arabic for his
research into the Qur'an and science) of this verse:

"(God is) the One Who created the night, the day, the sun and the moon.
Each is travelling in an orbit with its own motion." (Qur'an :33)

The positive aspect of this verse noted by Dr. Maurice Bucaille is that
while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time (and for
a long time afterwards), there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse
(or anywhere in the Qur'an).

Speaking as one who knows relativity and quantum mechanics, I say: 
Bullshit.

Speaking as one who has taken LSD, I say: 
Bullshit.

How could striving toward an ideal be in any way useful, if the ideal 
had no objective existence?
--
Mark Pundurs

Hi all,

  I am looking for a recommandation on a good royalty free graphics
library package for C and C++ program.  This is mainly use to write
children games and education software.  I heard someone mentioned Genus
and also GFX ?  Are they any good?

Please pardon me if my question sounds a little strange, I am asking
this question for a friend.

Thanks in advance!

Yes, and everyone thinks as you do.  No one thinks that he is going to cause
or be involved in a fatal accident, but the likelihood is surprisingly high.
Just because you are the man on the firing squad whose gun is shooting
blanks does not mean that you are less guilty.

You mean that killing is wrong in all but one situtation?  And, you should
note that that situation will never occur.  There are always other options
thank killing.  Why don't you just say that all killing is wrong.  This
is basically what you are saying.

Are you attempting to be condescending?

But, most people have found the risk to be acceptable.  You are probably
much more likely to die in a plane crash, or even using an electric
blender, than you are to be executed as an innocent.  I personally think
that the risk is acceptable, but in an ideal moral system, no such risk
is acceptable.  "Acceptable" is the fudge factor necessary in such an
approximation to the ideal.

Well, it's been a while since this was discussed so i take the liberty of
reprinting (without permission, so sue me) Eric Haines reprint of the very
interesting discussion of this topic...

                /Jonas

                         O /         \ O
------------------------- X snip snip X ------------------------------
                         O \         / O

"Give a man a fish, and he'll eat one day.
Give a man a fishing rod, and he'll laze around fishing and never do anything."

With that in mind, I reprint (without permission, so sue me) relevant
information posted some years ago on this very problem.  Note the early use of
PostScript technology, predating many of this year's papers listed in the
April 1st SIGGRAPH Program Announcement posted here a few days ago.

-- Eric

Intersection Between a Line and a Polygon (UNDECIDABLE??),
	by Dave Baraff, Tom Duff

	From: deb@charisma.graphics.cornell.edu
	Newsgroups: comp.graphics
	Keywords: P, NP, Jordan curve separation, Ursyhon Metrization Theorem
	Organization: Program of Computer Graphics

I think that this is a very difficult problem.  To start with, lines and
polygons are semi-algebraic sets which both contain uncountable number of
points.  Here are a few off-the-cuff ideas.

First, we need to check if the line and the polygon are separated.  Now, the
Jordan curve separation theorem says that the polygon divides the plane into
exactly two open (and thus non-compact) regions.  Thus, the line lies
completely inside the polygon, the line lies completely outside the polygon,
or possibly (but this will rarely happen) the line intersects the polyon.

Now, the phrasing of this question says "if a line intersects a polygon", so
this is a decision problem.  One possibility (the decision model approach) is
to reduce the question to some other (well known) problem Q, and then try to
solve Q.  An answer to Q gives an answer to the original decision problem.

In recent years, many geometric problems have been successfully modeled in a
new language called PostScript.  (See "PostScript Language", by Adobe Systems
Incorporated, ISBN # 0-201-10179-3, co. 1985).

So, given a line L and a polygon P, we can write a PostScript program that
draws the line L and the polygon P, and then "outputs" the answer.  By
"output", we mean the program executes a command called "showpage", which
actually prints a page of paper containing the line and the polygon.  A quick
examination of the paper provides an answer to the reduced problem Q, and thus
the original problem.

There are two small problems with this approach. 

	(1) There is an infinite number of ways to encode L and P into the
	reduced problem Q.  So, we will be forced to invoke the Axiom of
	Choice (or equivalently, Zorn's Lemma).  But the use of the Axiom of
	Choice is not regarded in a very serious light these days.

	(2) More importantly, the question arises as to whether or not the
	PostScript program Q will actually output a piece of paper; or in
	other words, will it halt?

	Now, PostScript is expressive enough to encode everything that a
	Turing Machine might do; thus the halting problem (for PostScript) is
	undecidable.  It is quite possible that the original problem will turn
	out to be undecidable.

I won't even begin to go into other difficulties, such as aliasing, finite
precision and running out of ink, paper or both.

A couple of references might be:

1. Principia Mathematica.  Newton, I.  Cambridge University Press, Cambridge,
   England.  (Sorry, I don't have an ISBN# for this).

2. An Introduction to Automata Theory, Languages, and Computation.  Hopcroft, J
   and Ulman, J.

3. The C Programming Language. Kernighan, B and Ritchie, D.

4. A Tale of Two Cities. Dickens, C.

--------

From: td@alice.UUCP (Tom Duff)
Summary: Overkill.
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ

The situation is not nearly as bleak as Baraff suggests (he should know
better, he's hung around The Labs for long enough).  By the well known
Dobbin-Dullman reduction (see J. Dullman & D. Dobbin, J. Comp. Obfusc.
37,ii:  pp. 33-947, lemma 17(a)) line-polygon intersection can be reduced to
Hamiltonian Circuit, without(!) the use of Grobner bases, so LPI (to coin an
acronym) is probably only NP-complete.  Besides, Turing-completeness will no
longer be a problem once our Cray-3 is delivered, since it will be able to
complete an infinite loop in 4 milliseconds (with scatter-gather.)

--------

From: deb@svax.cs.cornell.edu (David Baraff)

Well, sure its no worse than NP-complete, but that's ONLY if you restrict
yourself to the case where the line satisfies a Lipschitz condition on its
second derivative.  (I think there's an '89 SIGGRAPH paper from Caltech that
deals with this).

--

American, perhaps, but nothing military about it.  I learned (mostly)
slugs when we talked English units in high school physics and while
the teacher was an ex-Navy fighter jock the book certainly wasn't
produced by the military.

[Poundals were just too flinking small and made the math come out
funny; sort of the same reason proponents of SI give for using that.] 

-- 

When the Quran uses the word *din* it means way of individual thinking, behaving,
communal order and protocols based on a set of beliefs. This is often
interpreted as the much weaker term religion. 

The atheists are not mentioned in the Quran along with Jews,
Mushriqin, Christians, etc. because the  latter are all din. To have a
din you need a set of beliefs, assumptions, etc, to forma a social
code. For example the Marxist have those, such as History, Conflict,
etc. That they do not put idols (sometimes they did) to represent
those assuptions  does not mean they are any different from the other
Mushriq, or roughly polytheists. 

There cannot be social Atheism, because when there is a community,
that community needs common ideas or standard beliefs to coordinate 
the society. When they inscribe assumptions, say Nation, or "Progress is 
the natural consequence of Human activity" or "parlamentarian
democracy is doubtlessly the best way of government", however 
they individually insist they do not have gods, from the Quranic point
of view they do. Therefore by definition, atheism does not exist. 
"We are a atheist society" in fact means "we reject the din other than
ours". 

Atheism can only exist when people reject all the idols/gods/dogmas/
suppositions/.. of the society that they part, and in that case that
is a personal deviation of belief, and Quran tells about such
deviations and disbelief. But as I mentioned, from a Quranic point of
looking at things, there is no Atheism in the macro level. 

I think it took more than one minute.

Joe,

	your description sounds like one of the  gravity probe  spacecraft
ideas.

[ deleted ]
[ deleted ]

  If your science teacher tells you glass is a liquid, try to get a different
science teacher B^).  Glass is a supercooled fluid, it is not a liquid (except
at very high temperatures).  The definition of liquid includes "readily takes
the form of its container".  Let's try to be more accurate here.  We don't want
people to think we're creationists now do we?

Exactly when will the hover test be done, and will any of the TV
networks carry it.  I really want to see that...

I am looking for a source of orbital element sets
other than UAF/Space Command.  I believe there is
one on CompuServe.  Please let me know what other
possible sources there are and how I can reach 
them.  Thanks much.

Does this organization have an official e-mail address these
days? (an address for any of the SF Bay Area Lodges, e.g. Thelema
would do.)
                                      93...
                                       A.Lizard

Just posting to John Cormack.
I wanted to tell you that there is a "slight" difference between 
Speedstar 24 and Speedstar 24X

What is the deal with life on Mars?  I save the "face" and heard 
associated theories. (which sound thin to me)

Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian?
Does anyone buy all the life theories?

I was curious to check out how many San Jose Mercury News mentioned
Tyre (1990-92). Here's the outcome from the research (condenced versions,
copyright San Jose Mercury news):

---
  Bombings in the two largest cities in southern Lebanon killed 11 people
and 
wounded 80 others. A car bomb blew up in Tyre, killing 10 people and
wounding 
75. A man was killed and five others seriously wounded in an explosion in 
Nabatiye.
---
  An Israeli navy patrol boat attacked and sank a rubber guerrilla boat off

southern Lebanon early today, killing the two men aboard, the army command 
said.
  
     It said in a communique that a Dvora patrol boat opened fire on the 
motorized rubber dinghy north of Tyre after identifying it as hostile. The
army 
said no one on the Israeli boat was injured. The affiliation of the slain 
guerrillas was not immediately known.
---
  Rival factions of the guerrilla group led by terrorist mastermind Abu
Nidal 
battled Sunday in Tyre, Lebanon, with machine guns and rocket-propelled 
grenades, killing at least four people and wounding 15, police said.
---
 Lebanon's mainstream Shiite Muslim militia said Thursday that it had 
uncovered a network of tunnels in a southern Lebanese village where it said
pro-
Iranian kidnappers had held Western hostages.
  
     Officials of the militia, Amal, led local journalists through the
catacomb-
like alleys and showed them two cells with iron doors at the village, 
Kawthariyet al Siyad, near Tyre, the ancient port city, about 40 miles
south of 
Beirut.
  
     The officials said they were certain that U.S. Marine Lt. Col. William
R. 
Higgins was detained there shortly after he was seized by gunmen on a road 
outside Tyre in February 1988.
--------------
...anyway, I counted 20 articles during these 3 years of reporting. I also
found out the possible reason why the numbers for the inhabitants of the
city is defined between 14000 and 24000. It seems that Tyre is one of the
places
where people from Libanon flee to during more extensive bombings, so
there's
a constant flow of refugees entering and leaving Tyre (articles mentioned
thousands of people entering and leaving this place).

I counted 0 articles for my home town, Kristinestad, so from now I will
consider this place to be a fishing village :-).

Cheers,
Kent

Hi,
         I have a friend who is working on 2-d and 3-d object recognition. He is looking
for references describing algorithms on the following subject areas:

Thresholding
Edge Segmentation
Marr-Hildreth
Sobel Operator
Chain Codes
Thinning - Skeletonising

If anybody is willing to post an algorithm that they have implemented which demonstrates
any of the above topics, it would be much appreciated.

Please post all replies to my e-mail address. If requested I will post a summary to the
newsgroup in a couple of weeks.

Thanks in advance for all replies

What  evidence  indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away?

Given the enormous  power,  i was just wondering,  what if they are
quantum  black holes or something  like that  fairly close by?

Why would they have to be at  galactic ranges?   

my own pet theory is that it's  Flying saucers  entering
hyperspace :-)

but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes  that they
are  colliding nuetron stars  or  spinning black holes,  i just wondered
if any mechanism could exist  and place them  closer in.

[most of post deleted]
There is an easy way out....
Post the flyers on the stall doors, but add at the bottom, in nice large
capitals,

      EMERGENCY TOILET PAPER

:)

Tail-recursive functions in Scheme are at least as efficient as iterative
loops.  Anyone who doesn't program in assembler will have heard of optimizing
compilers.

Hello...

    Does anyone know of any C or C++ function libraries in the public domain
 that assist in parsing an AUTOCAD .dxf file?  

    Please e-mail.

                                Thanks,

-- 

Christians through ages have had to learn to be patient. I do think
it's time to face the reality. The events during the last 52 two
days showed what the world is really like.

Kent

  No. The christians were leary of having an atheist spokesman
  (seems so clandestine, and all that), so they had him removed.  Of
  course, Keith is busy explaining to his fellow captives how he
  isn't really being persecuted, since (after all) they *are*
  feeding him, and any resistance on his part would only be viewed
  as trouble making.  

  I understand he did make a bit of a fuss when they tatooed "In God
  We Trust" on his forehead, though.

RIX's files with the extension  .sci and .scf are just a RAW file with
a 256 color palette.
The first 10 bytes is a kind of header, with the name RIX among 7bytes unknown stuff. The you have 768 bytes of palette info (3*256 for the colors RGB)
and then you have the picture in raw format.
If you dont know how to make a viewer of of this description you can get VPIC
it is able to read the files!

SIGKIDS CALL FOR PARTICIPATION
SIGKids Research Showcase is where learning is hip.  Pushing the edge in
education, computer graphics, and new technologies, the SIGKids Research
Showcase will provide SIGGRAPH's attendees with the latest in applying
computer technology to form state of the art educational experiences.  So
hop to it!  Submit any works which converge the disciplines of education
and computer technology.

Possible categories and domains include but are NOT LIMITED to:

-Interactive/stand-alone applications
-Self-Run demonstrations and tutorials
-Museum Installations
-Groupware/Collaborative systems
-Hypermedia
-Virtual Reality
-Scientific Visualization
-Interactive Art
-Microworlds

Deadlines:

May 21, 1993 submissions due  

Submit to:

Diane Schwartz
SIGGRAPH '93 SIGKids Committee
c/o The Institute for the Learning Sciences
1890 Maple Avenue, Suite 150
Evanston, Illinois 60201
Fax:	708.491.5258
schwartz@ils.nwu.edu

Electronic Submission Form:

How to Submit:
1. Fill out the 'Permission to Use' form (see page 19 of the SIGGRAPH '93
Call for Participation or send email to schwartz@ils.nwu.edu to have one
faxed to you.)

2. Fill out the SIGKids '93 Research Showcase Submission Form (below).

3. Send an abstract/description of the submission (approximately 100 words)
in one of the following ways:

    A. Send 3 hard copies to Diane Schwartz (via surface mail) at the above
       address
							                    OR
    B. Fax 1 copy to Diane Schwartz at (708)491-5258
                           OR
    C. Email 1 copy to Diane Schwartz at schwartz@ils.nwu.edu

4. If it is necessary to explain the project, additional support material
such as videotapes and slides that will assist the selection committee in
reaching a decision are highly reccommended. 

Fax and email submissions are acceptable.

PLEASE SEND ALL OF YOUR SUBMISSION MATERIAL IN THE SAME FORM (either
surface mail, email, or fax. The only exception to this should be the
additional support material which should only be sent via surface mail). 

NOTE: Due to our very limited budget, if the submitter chooses to have a
dedicated machine for their work, they will have to pay rental fees
for the hardware personally.

NOTE: Contributors outside for the United States should be aware of customs
and carrier delays and send submissions early.

______________________________________cut
here__________________________________

         ACM SIGGRAPH '93 SIGKIDS RESEARCH SHOWCASE ENTRY FORM

A copy of this form must accompany each proposal you submit.  Send SIGKids
Research Showcase Entries to:

Please print legibly.

Contact Information: 
Name________________________________________________

Company______________________________________________

Address______________________________________________

City_________________________________________________

State_____________Postal code______________Country_________________ 

Daytime phone_____________________Evening phone____________________

Fax_____________________________Email______________________________

Additional Information:

Title or Theme of Piece__________________________________ 

Participant(s') name(s)___________________________________

Collaborator(s') name(s)__________________________________ 

Hardware (platform and periferals):

1. What is
needed:_____________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________________

2. Supplied by Participant:

		___ Yes  ___ No

	3. Dedicated machine?

NOTE:  Due to our very limited budget the participant must pay the rental
fees for any dedicated hardware.

___Need assistance
(specify)____________________________________________________ 

Software________________________________________________________________________

Statement - Please tell us the significance of the work.
(less than 50 words)

Medium:

___Other (describe - i.e. virtual reality, virtual sculpture, interactive
multimedia installation,
etc.)__________________________________________________

Special Requirements:

Physical
description____________________________________________________________ 

Power___________________________________________________________________________

Dimensions______________________________________________________________________

Other__________________________________________________________________________

Authorization

Permission to use visual and audio:  In the event that materials used in my
ACM SIGGRAPH'93 SIGKids Research Showcase Entry contain the work of other
individuals or organizations (including any copyrighted musical
compositions or excerpts thereof), I understand that it is my
responsibility to secure any necessary permissions and/or liscenses.  

	___Yes ___No  My piece contains images, audio, or video components.
               If yes:
	              ___Yes ___No  I have the necessary rights and/or permissions
to
                             use the images, audio, or video components in
my
                             piece.

Conference presentation release:  By signing this form, I grant SIGGRAPH'93
permission to consider my piece for the SIGKids Research Showcase.  I
maintain the copyright to my work and will receive full credit wherever
this work is used.

Conference promotional material:  I grant ACM SIGGRAPH the right to use my
slides for conference and organization publicity, both now and in the
future.  This includes usage on posters, brochures, catalogs, promotional
items, or media broadcast. In exchange, SIGGRAPH provides full
author/artist credit information on all promotional material.

___Yes ___No  I grant ACM SIGGRAPH permission to use slides of my work
              for conference and organization publicity.

Signature______________________________________Date_________

ACM SIGGRAPH makes every attempt to respect and protect intellectual 
property rights of people and organizations preparing material for 
SIGGRAPH conferences. This entry form explains the uses SIGGRAPH will 
make of the material and requires you to acknowledge that you have 
permission to use this material.  This may involve seeking clearance from 
your employer or from others who have loaned you material, such as 
videotapes and slides.  This form helps prevent situations whereby 
SIGGRAPH'93 presentations include material without permission that 
might lead to complaints or even legal action.

  The commercial uses of a transportation system between already-settled-
and-civilized areas are obvious.  Spaceflight is NOT in this position.
The correct analogy is not with aviation of the '30's, but the long
transocean voyages of the Age of Discovery.  It didn't require gov't to
fund these as long as something was known about the potential for profit
at the destination.  In practice, some were gov't funded, some were private.
But there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount
of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff.
  I am sure that a thriving spaceflight industry will eventually develop,
and large numbers of people will live and work off-Earth.  But if you ask
me for specific justifications other than the increased resource base, I
can't give them.  We just don't know enough.  The launch rate demanded by
existing space industries is just too low to bring costs down much, and
we are very much in the dark about what the revolutionary new space industries
will be, when they will practical, how much will have to be invested to
start them, etc.

There is a whole constellation of custom built navigation beacon satellites
in the process of being phased out right now. The TRANSIT/OSCAR satellites
are being replaced by GPS. Or were you thinking of deep space navigation,
which is best done with doppler/VLBI/ stellar measurements. I do not think
additional radio beacons would help much.

	Ok, so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria?  I figure
that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it.
Any comments?

    Help!! I need code/package/whatever to take 3-D data and turn it into
a wireframe surface with hidden lines removed. I'm using a DOS machine, and
the code can be in ANSI C or C++, ANSI Fortran or Basic. The data I'm using
forms a rectangular grid.
   Please post your replies to the net so that others may benefit. IMHO, this
is a general interest question.
   Thank you!!!!!!

Forwarded from Neal Ausman, Galileo Mission Director

                                GALILEO
                     MISSION DIRECTOR STATUS REPORT
                             POST-LAUNCH
                         April 9 - 15, 1993

SPACECRAFT

1.  On April 9, real-time commands were sent, as planned, to reacquire
celestial reference after completion of the Low Gain Antenna (LGA-2)
swing/Dual Drive Actuator (DDA) hammer activities.

2.  On April 9, the EJ-1 (Earth-Jupiter #1) sequence memory load was uplinked
to the spacecraft without incident.  This sequence covers spacecraft activity
from April 12, 1993 to June 14, 1993 and includes a window for the Radio Relay
Antenna (RRA) slew test on April 28, 1993.  The command loss timer was set to
11 days as a part of this sequence memory load.

3.  On April 12 and 15, a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss
timer to 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase.

4.  On April 12, cruise science Memory Readouts (MROs) were performed for the
Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer (EUV), Dust Detector (DDS), and Magnetometer
(MAG) instruments.  Preliminary analysis indicates the data was received
properly.

5.  On April 12, an Ultra-Stable Oscillator (USO) test was performed to verify
the health status of the USO and to collect gravitational red shift experiment
data; long term trend analysis is continuing.

6.  On April 14, a 40bps modulation index test was performed to determine the
optimal Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR) when transmitting at 40bps.  Preliminary
analysis of the data suggests that the present pre-launch selected modulation
index is near the optimal level.

7.  On April 15, cruise science Memory Readouts (MROs) were performed for the
Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer (EUV) and Magnetometer (MAG) instrument.
Preliminary analysis indicates the data was received properly.

8.  On April 15, a periodic RPM (Retro-Propulsion Module) 10-Newton thruster
flushing maintenance activity was performed; all 12 thrusters were flushed
during the activity.  Thruster performance throughout the activity was nominal.

9.  The AC/DC bus imbalance measurements have not exhibited significant
changes (greater than 25 DN) throughout this period.  The AC measurement reads
19 DN (4.3 volts).  The DC measurement reads 111 DN (12.9 volts).  These
measurements are consistent with the model developed by the AC/DC special
anomaly team.

10. The Spacecraft status as of April 15, 1993, is as follows:

       a)  System Power Margin -  60 watts
       b)  Spin Configuration - Dual-Spin
       c)  Spin Rate/Sensor - 3.15rpm/Star Scanner
       d)  Spacecraft Attitude is approximately 18 degrees
           off-sun (lagging) and 6 degrees off-earth (leading)
       e)  Downlink telemetry rate/antenna- 40bps(coded)/LGA-1
       f)  General Thermal Control - all temperatures within
           acceptable range
       g)  RPM Tank Pressures - all within acceptable range
       h)  Orbiter Science- Instruments powered on are the PWS,
           EUV, UVS, EPD, MAG, HIC, and DDS
       i)  Probe/RRH - powered off, temperatures within
       j)  CMD Loss Timer Setting - 264 hours
           Time To Initiation - 260 hours

GDS (Ground Data Systems):

1.  Galileo participated in a second DSN (Deep Space Network) acceptance test
for the DSN Telemetry Phase 3 Upgrade on April 13, 1993, using CTA-21
(Compatibility Test Area 21).  The purpose of this test was to verify
the flow of Galileo telemetry data through the new Telemetry Group Controller
(TGC) and the Telemetry Channel Assembly (TCA).  The TGC/TCA is the replacement
for the current Telemetry Processing Assembly (TPA).  Seven different telemetry
rates were run for this test; all ran well on both the MTS (MCCC Telemetry
Subsystem) and the AMMOS MGDS V18.0 GIF with the exception of 10bps.  The
10bps rate had some trouble staying in lock; it appears the TGC/TCA was
not metering the data correctly.  Further comparisons between the MGDS and MTS
data from this test are being conducted. MVT (Mission Verification Test) of
the TGC/TCA system is expected to begin May 16, 1993.

TRAJECTORY

     As of noon Thursday, April 15, 1993, the Galileo Spacecraft trajectory
status was as follows:

	Distance from Earth         152,606,000 km (1.02 AU)
	Distance from Sun           277,519,800 km (1.86 AU)
	Heliocentric Speed          93,400 km per hour
	Distance from Jupiter       543,973,900 km
	Round Trip Light Time       17 minutes, 4 seconds

SPECIAL TOPIC

-------------------------------------
	+ ............The OTIS Project '93  +      
	+ "The Operative Term Is STIMULATE" + 
	-------------------------------------
	---this file last updated..4-21-93---

WHAT IS OTIS?

OTIS is here for the purpose of distributing original artwork
and photographs over the network for public perusal, scrutiny,    
and distribution.  Digital immortality.

The basic idea behind "digital immortality" is that computer networks   
are here to stay and that anything interesting you deposit on them
will be around near-forever.  The GIFs and JPGs of today will be the
artifacts of a digital future.  Perhaps they'll be put in different
formats, perhaps only surviving on backup tapes....but they'll be
there...and someone will dig them up.  
 
If that doesn't interest you... OTIS also offers a forum for critique
and exhibition of your works....a virtual art gallery that never closes
and exists in an information dimension where your submissions will hang
as wallpaper on thousands of glowing monitors.  Suddenly, life is 
breathed into your work...and by merit of it's stimulus, it will 
travel the globe on pulses of light and electrons.
 
Spectators are welcome also, feel free to browse the gallery and 
let the artists know what you think of their efforts.  Keep your own
copies of the images to look at when you've got the gumption...
that's what they're here for.

---------------------------------------------------------------

WHERE?             

OTIS currently (as of 4/21/93) has two FTP sites.  
 
 	141.214.4.135 (projects/otis), the UWI site
		
	sunsite.unc.edu (/pub/multimedia/pictures/OTIS), the SUNsite 
	(you can also GOPHER to this site for OTIS as well)

Merely "anonymous FTP" to either site on Internet and change to the
appropriate directory.  Don't forget to get busy and use the "bin"
command to make sure you're in binary.

OTIS has also been spreading to some dial-up BBS systems around North
America....the following systems have a substancial supply of
OTIStuff...
	Underground Cafe (Omaha) (402.339.0179) 2 lines
	CyberDen (SanFran?) (415.472.5527)  Usenet Waffle-iron

--------------------------------------------------------------
 
HOW DO YOU CONTRIBUTE?
              
What happens is...you draw a pretty picture or take a lovely   
photo, get it scanned into an image file, then either FTP-put
it in the CONTRIB/Incoming directory or use UUENCODE to send it to me
(email addresses at eof) in email.  After the image is received,
it will be put into the correct directory.  Computer originated works
are also welcome.

OTIS' directories house two types of image files, GIF and JPG.  
GIF and JPG files require, oddly enough, a GIF or JPG viewer to 
see.  These viewers are available for all types of computers at 
most large FTP sites around Internet.  JPG viewers are a bit
tougher to find.  If you can't find one, but do have a GIF viewer,  
you can obtain a JPG-to-GIF conversion program which will change    
JPG files to a standard GIF format. 

OTIS also accepts animation files.      

When you submit image files, please send me email at the same time
stating information about what you uploaded and whether it is to be
used (in publications or other projects) or if it is merely for people
to view.  Also, include some biographical information on yourself, we'll
be having info-files on each contributing artist and their works.  You 
can also just upload a text-file of info about yourself (instead of 
emailing).

If you have pictures, but no scanner, there is hope.  Merely send
copies to:

The OTIS Project
c/o Ed Stastny
PO BX 241113
Omaha, NE 68124-1113

I will either scan them myself or get them to someone who will  
scan them.  Include an ample SASE if you want your stuff back.  
Also include information on each image, preferably a 1-3 line 
description of the image that we can include in the infofile in the
directory where it's finally put.  If you have preferences as to what
the images are to be named, include those as well.  
 
Conversely, if you have a scanner and would like to help out, please
contact me and we'll arrange things.

If you want to submit your works by disk, peachy.  Merely send a 3.5"
disk to the above address (Omaha) and a SASE if you want your disk back.
This is good for people who don't have direct access to encoders or FTP,
but do have access to a scanner.  We accept disks in either Mac or IBM
compatible format.  If possible, please submit image files as GIF or
JPG.  If you can't...we can convert from most formats...we'd just rather
not have to.

At senders request, we can also fill disks with as much OTIS as they
can stand.  Even if you don't have stuff to contribute, you can send
a blank disk and an SASE (or $2.50 for disk, postage and packing) to 
get a slab-o-OTIS.

As of 04/21/93, we're at about 18 megabytes of files, and growing.  
Email me for current archive size and directory.

DISTRIBUTION?

The images distributed by the OTIS project may be distributed freely   
on the condition that the original filename is kept and that it is
not altered in any way (save to convert from one image format to
another).  In fact, we encourage files to be distributed to local 
bulletin boards and such.  If you could, please transport the
appropriate text files along with the images.  
 
It would also be nice if you'd send me a note when you did post images
from OTIS to your local bbs.  I just want to keep track of them so
participants can have some idea how widespread their stuff is.

It's the purpose of OTIS to get these images spread out as much as
possible.  If you have the time, please upload a few to your favorite
BBS system....or even just post this "info-file" there.  It would be
keen of you.

USE?

If you want to use any of the works you find on the OTIS directory,
you'll have to check to see if permission has been granted and the 
stipulations of the permission (such as free copy of publication, or
full address credit).  You will either find this in the ".rm" file for    
the image or series of images...or in the "Artists" directory under the 
Artists name.  If permission isn't explicitly given, then you'll have 
to contact the artist to ask for it.  If no info is available, email
me (ed@cwis.unomaha.edu), and I'll get in contact with the artist for 
you, or give you their contact information.
 
When you DO use permitted work, it's always courteous to let the artist
know about it, perhaps even send them a free copy or some such
compensation for their files.

NAMING IMAGES?

Please keep the names of your files in "dos" format.  That means, keep
the filename (before .jpg or .gif) to eight characters or less.  The way
I usually do it is to use the initials of the artist, plus a three or
four digit "code" for the series of images, plus the series number.
Thus, Leonardo DeVinci's fifth mechanical drawing would be something
like:
 
	ldmek5.gif     OR    ldmek5.jpg    OR    ldmech5.gif   ETC

Keeping the names under 8 characters assures that the filename will
remain intact on all systems.  

---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

CREATING IMAGE FILES?

When creating image files, be sure to at least include your name
somewhere on or below the picture.  This gives people a reference in
case they'd like to contact you.  You may also want to include a title,
address or other information you'd like people to know.

HMMM?!

That's about it for now.  More "guidelines" will be added as needed.
Your input is expected.

DISCLAIMER:  The OTIS Project has no connection to the Church of OTIS  
 	     (a sumerian deity) or it's followers, be they pope, priest,
	     or ezine administrator.  We do take sacrifices and donations
	     however.

DISCLAIMER:  The OTIS Project is here for the distribution of original 
 	     image files.  The files will go to the public at large.  
	     It's possible, as with any form of mass-media, that someone
	     could unscrupulously use your images for financial gain.  
    	     Unless you've given permission for that, it's illegal.  OTIS
	     takes no responsibility for this.  In simple terms, all rights
	     revert to the author/artist.  To leave an image on OTIS is to 
	     give permission for it to be viewed, copied and distributed 
	     electronically.  If you don't want your images distributed     
	     all-over, don't upload them.  To leave an image on OTIS is
	     NOT giving permission to have it used in any publication or
	     broadcast that incurs profit (this includes, but is not 
	     limited to, magazines, newsletters, clip-art software,        
	     screen-printed clothing, etc).  You must give specific
	     permission for this sort of usage.  

Remember, the operative term is "stimulate".  If you know of people
that'd be interested in this sort of thing...get them involved...kick'm
in the booty....offer them free food...whatever...

....e  (ed@cwis.unomaha.edu)
       (ed@sunsite.unc.edu)

Most of the key issues in the 284 line post to which I am following up are
dealt with in the following post I made on talk.abortion yesterday,
modified to correct the next to last paragraph.

Message-ID: <nyikos.734890344@milo.math.scarolina.edu>

References: <nyikos.734360987@milo.math.scarolina.edu> <nyikos.734640769@milo.math.scarolina.edu> <1993Apr13.122356.3612@cbnewsj.cb.att.com>

Dean did not.  He called them "the Great Commission" but this is NOT
descriptive of Jesus's words in Matt. 10:15.

Matt. 10:14, Jerusalem Bible translation:

	"And if anyone does not welcome you or listen to what you have
	to say, as you walk out of the house or town shake the dust
	from your feet."

Matt. 10:15:

 	"I tell you solemnly, on the day of Judgment it will not 
 	go as hard with the land of Sodom and Gomorrah as with 
 	that town."

"> The above is a good description of Kaflowitz, who keeps harping on
 > shaking the dust off the feet but ignoring what Christ said next."
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                                ^^^^

The highlighted words refer to Matt 10:14 and 10:15 respectively.

And Dean countered:

"Actually, this comment of your's is a perfect example of what an
intellectually dishonest little sparrowfart you are, since I
specifically acknowledged the Great Commission and the entreaty
to spread the word.  In fact, it is the combination of the two
statements I was addressing, and not just the one, and for you to
characterize that as "ignoring" the instruction to spread the
word is a good example of what a dishonest little fellow you are."

Of course, Matt 10:15 [quoted above] makes no mention of "instruction
to spread the word."

All these quotes btw are from:

Message-ID: <1993Apr13.121624.3400@cbnewsj.cb.att.com>

And I claim it correctly, because my question went:

"Do you, too, measure
the goodness of a post by its entertainment value, and care not
a whit for such mundane things as truth and falsehood?"

and the closest Dean came to an answer was:

"Peter, Peter, Peter.  You're just so stupid, pretentious, dull,
and generally unworthy of the value you place on yourself that
the sport is all there is."

Of course, this does NOT answer my question, which has to do with posts
in GENERAL and not my posts in particular.  Surely even Dean knows this,
yet he brazenly asserts otherwise, reinforcing his claim with an insult:

"So I now restore the answer to your question
that you deleted.  If you're still unable to figure it out, ask
a nice kid at the local junior high to help you.  It really
doesn't take much sophistication to understand."

On top of which, I doubt that the "answer" is at all representative
of Dean's true frame of mind.  The insults you have seen quoted thus
far are but a small sample of the stream that oozes out of Dean's 
mind throughout the 284-line post from which these quotes were taken.
One wonders whether Dean's mind is so warped as to find sport in all
this.

He even dredges up a falsified account of
events that transpired earlier on another thread:

"You made an ass of yourself by claiming that it
				^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
was in the tradition of Lent to make public announcements of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
the "sins" of other individuals."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

False.  I said it was the tradition to recall and atone for one's sins.
That I made public announcements of the "sins" of others
--"sins", BTW, that were a matter of public record, documented in
the posts of others-- is a different matter.

Many of the individuals involved are so nearly amoral that
they do not see as sins what morally upright people see as sins, so
I pointed some of them out.  And I expressly set up a whole thread,
YOUR TURN, to let people point out MY sins to me.

Dean again:

"You made an ass of yourself
by saying that my statement of the tradition of tzedukkah was
somehow an attempt to "paint Jews as plaster saints," thereby
revealing your inability to understand the discussion as well
as showing your dislike for people saying positive things
about Jews, and now you show your intellectual dishonesty by
repeatedly ignoring the simple argument being made, and then
claiming I am ignoring the very argument I acknowledge."

Actually, what happened was that Dean made it seem like ANY Jew
who gave alms or did other acts of charity in public was a hypocrite
according to Jewish customs.  In doing so, he was caricaturing
Jewish customs as being almost impossibly demanding, as well as
implicitly slandering all Jews who make public their acts of charity.

I went very easily on Dean for this, giving him the benefit of
the doubt in a post following my initial crack about "plaster saints", 
suggesting that he had been merely careless in his wording.

In an astonishing act of ingratitude, Dean now serves up an incredibly
distorted picture of what took place between us, and using it as
the basis of one insult after another.

Sketch:  Rotate so cylinder axis is || Z axis.

Intersect X/Y projection of line with projected cylinder (similar to,
but easier than, sphere intersection).  Result: no intersection, one
intersection, or two intersections, parameterized along line by t0 and
t1.  Now look at Z, and compute intersections of line with top and
bottom planes of cylinder.  This gives t0' and t1'.  The interval of
intersection is then the bit of the line from [t0,t1] INTERSECT [t0',t1'].

Details left as an exercise for the reader.

=S

I recently read an article in a local paper written by an Islamic
  person who was upset with the way Islam has been portrayed by western media.
  When a terrorist action takes place in the middle east, it is always played
  up as an Islamic Terrorist.  However, when the a Serbian terrorist attacks
  the Croations, its not a Christian terrorist, its just a terrorist.
	I have often tried to explain this to some close friends who believe
  the press, that Islam is somehow tied to violence.  Often times you hear
  things like "They just don't value human life like we do..." and so on.
  I was wondering if anyone out there had any suggestions for how we can
  change this image, or how I can help my friends to see that this is just 
  hype.  I would appreciate any serious suggestions or comments via e-mail,
  and I'm not interested in hearing about how right the press is.

Afraid I can't give any more info on this.. and hoping someone in greter
NETLAND has some details.

A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
about how the Japanese, using what sounded like a gravity assist, had just
managed to crash (or crash-land) a package on the moon.

the article was very vague and unclear.  and, to make matters worse, I
didn't clip it.

does this jog anyone's memory?

Here is one by Andrew "Graphics Gems" Glassner that I got from a
collegue of mine.  I think I fiddled with it a little bit to make it
deal with whatever bizarre problem I was working on at the time but it
is known to work.

							spl
			       - - - -
/* spheres
    ASG     9 Feb 85
    spl Thu Mar  8 17:17:40 EST 1990
*/
#include <stdio.h>
#include <math.h>

#define PI 3.141592654

struct Point_struct {
        double x, y, z;
};

static double radius;
static double xorg;
static double yorg;
static double zorg;

do_sphere( r, freq, x, y, z )

  double r;
  int freq;
  double x;
  double y;
  double z;

  {

    int pole;
    double northy, southy, poley;
    double rtheta, rtheta2, ntheta, ntheta2, magicangle;
    double theta, thetastart, thisy, den, t;
    struct Point_node *pnp;
    struct Point_struct p1, p2, p3, p4, n1, n2, n3, n4, pt;

    radius = r;
    xorg = x;
    yorg = y;
    zorg = z;

/* north pole */

    magicangle = 30.0*PI/180.0;
    northy = radius*sin(magicangle);
    southy = -radius*sin(magicangle);
    for (pole=0; pole<2; pole++) {

      if (pole==0) {

        poley=radius;   
        thisy=northy; 
        thetastart=0.0; 

      }
      else { 

        poley= -radius; 
        thisy=southy; 
        thetastart=36.0; 

      }
      for ( theta = thetastart; theta < 360.0; theta += 60.0 ) {

        rtheta = theta*PI/180.0;
        rtheta2 = (theta+60.0)*PI/180.0;
        p1.x = 0.0;  
        p1.y = poley;  
        p1.z = 0.0;  
        p2.x = radius*cos(rtheta);
        p2.y = thisy;
        p2.z = radius*sin(rtheta);
        p3.x = radius*cos(rtheta2);
        p3.y = thisy;
        p3.z = radius*sin(rtheta2);

        if (pole==0) {

/* make ring go the other way so normals are right */

          pt.x = p3.x;  
          pt.y = p3.y;  
          pt.z = p3.z;  
          p3.x = p2.x;  
          p3.y = p2.y;  
          p3.z = p2.z;  
          p2.x = pt.x;  
          p2.y = pt.y;  
          p2.z = pt.z;  

        }

        den = (p1.x*p1.x)+(p1.y*p1.y)+(p1.z*p1.z);  
        den = sqrt(den);

        if (den != 0.0) {

          t = radius / den; 
          p1.x *= t;  
          p1.y *= t;  
          p1.z *= t;

        }

        den = (p2.x*p2.x)+(p2.y*p2.y)+(p2.z*p2.z);  

          p2.x *= t;  
          p2.y *= t;  
          p2.z *= t;

        }

        den = (p3.x*p3.x)+(p3.y*p3.y)+(p3.z*p3.z);  

          p3.x *= t;  
          p3.y *= t;  
          p3.z *= t;

        }

        subdivide_tri(&p1,&p2,&p3,freq);

      }

    }

/* now the body */

    for (theta=0.0; theta<360.0; theta += 60.0) {

      rtheta = theta*PI/180.0;  
      rtheta2 = (theta+60.0)*PI/180.0;
      ntheta = (theta+36.0)*PI/180.0; 
      ntheta2 = (theta+96.0)*PI/180.0;
      p1.x = radius*cos(rtheta);   
      p1.y = northy;  
      p1.z = radius*sin(rtheta);
      p2.x = radius*cos(rtheta2);  
      p2.y = northy;  
      p2.z = radius*sin(rtheta2);
      p3.x = radius*cos(ntheta);   
      p3.y = southy;  
      p3.z = radius*sin(ntheta);
      p4.x = radius*cos(ntheta2);  
      p4.y = southy;  
      p4.z = radius*sin(ntheta2);

      den = (p1.x*p1.x)+(p1.y*p1.y)+(p1.z*p1.z);  
      den = sqrt(den);

      if (den != 0.0) {

        t = radius / den; 
        p1.x *= t;  
        p1.y *= t;  
        p1.z *= t;

      }

      den = (p2.x*p2.x)+(p2.y*p2.y)+(p2.z*p2.z);  

        p2.x *= t;  
        p2.y *= t;  
        p2.z *= t;

      }
      den = (p3.x*p3.x)+(p3.y*p3.y)+(p3.z*p3.z);  

        p3.x *= t;  
        p3.y *= t;  
        p3.z *= t;

      }
      den = (p4.x*p4.x)+(p4.y*p4.y)+(p4.z*p4.z);  

        p4.x *= t;  
        p4.y *= t;  
        p4.z *= t;

      }

      subdivide_tri(&p1,&p2,&p3,freq);
      subdivide_tri(&p3,&p2,&p4,freq);

    }

    return;

  }

#define norm_pt(v) { register double r = sqrt( ( ( v )->x * ( v )->x ) + \
                                               ( ( v )->y * ( v )->y ) + \
                                               ( ( v )->z * ( v )->z ) ); \
                     ( v )->x /= r; \
                     ( v )->y /= r; \
                     ( v )->z /= r; \
                    }

subdivide_tri(p1,p2,p3,a)

  struct Point_struct *p1, *p2, *p3;
  int a;

  {

    struct Point_struct n1, n2, n3;
    struct Point_struct p12, p13, p23;
    double den, t;

    if (a>0) {

      p12.x = (p1->x+p2->x)/2.0;
      p12.y = (p1->y+p2->y)/2.0;
      p12.z = (p1->z+p2->z)/2.0;
      den = (p12.x*p12.x)+(p12.y*p12.y)+(p12.z*p12.z);  

        t = radius / den;
        p12.x *= t;  
        p12.y *= t;  
        p12.z *= t;

      }
      p13.x = (p1->x+p3->x)/2.0;
      p13.y = (p1->y+p3->y)/2.0;
      p13.z = (p1->z+p3->z)/2.0;
      den = (p13.x*p13.x)+(p13.y*p13.y)+(p13.z*p13.z); 

        p13.x *= t;  
        p13.y *= t;  
        p13.z *= t;

      }
      p23.x = (p2->x+p3->x)/2.0;
      p23.y = (p2->y+p3->y)/2.0;
      p23.z = (p2->z+p3->z)/2.0;
      den = (p23.x*p23.x)+(p23.y*p23.y)+(p23.z*p23.z);  

        p23.x *= t;  
        p23.y *= t;  
        p23.z *= t;

      }
      subdivide_tri(p1,  &p12,&p13,a-1);
      subdivide_tri(&p12, p2, &p23,a-1);
      subdivide_tri(&p13,&p23, p3, a-1);
      subdivide_tri(&p12,&p23,&p13,a-1);

    } else {

      n1.x = p1->x;  
      n1.y = p1->y;  
      n1.z = p1->z;  
      norm_pt(&n1);
      n2.x = p2->x;  
      n2.y = p2->y;  
      n2.z = p2->z;  
      norm_pt(&n2);
      n3.x = p3->x;  
      n3.y = p3->y;  
      n3.z = p3->z;  
      norm_pt(&n3);

/* nothing special about this poly */

      printf( "%f %f %f  %f %f %f\n", p1->x + xorg,
                                      p1->y + yorg,
                                      p1->z + zorg,
                                      n1.x, n1.y, n1.z );
      printf( "%f %f %f  %f %f %f\n", p2->x + xorg,
                                      p2->y + yorg,
                                      p2->z + zorg,
                                      n2.x, n2.y, n2.z );
      printf( "%f %f %f  %f %f %f\n", p3->x + xorg,
                                      p3->y + yorg,
                                      p3->z + zorg,
                                      n3.x, n3.y, n3.z );

    }

    return;

  }

  Actually the most flexible way to create temp files is to check for a TEMP or
TMP environment variable and create the files on the drive and directory pointedto by the variable.  This is pretty much a standard for DOS, Windows and OS/2
applications.

-- 
What I have to say is my own opinion and has no bearing on any other person or
organization including my employer.

I would be happy to discuss the  issue of the 12 Imams with you, although
my preference would be to move the discussion to another
newsgroup.  I feel a philosophy
or religion group would be more appropriate. The topic is deeply
embedded in the world view of Islam and the
esoteric teachings of the Prophet (S.A.). Heresy does not enter
into it at all except for those who see Islam only as an exoteric
religion that is only nominally (if at all) concerned with the metaphysical
substance of man's being and nature.

A good introductory book (in fact one of the best introductory
books to Islam in general) is Murtaza Mutahhari's "Fundamental's
of Islamic Thought - God, Man, and the Universe" - Mizan Press,
translated by R. Campbell. Truly a beautiful book. A follow-up book
(if you can find a decent translation) is "Wilaya - The Station
of the Master" by the same author. I think it also goes under the
title of "Master and Mastership" - It's a very small book - really
just a transcription of a lecture by the author.
The introduction to the beautiful "Psalms of Islam" - translated
by William C. Chittick (available through Muhammadi Trust of
Great Britain) is also an excellent introduction to the subject. We
have these books in our University library - I imagine any well
stocked University library will have them.

From your posts, you seem fairly well versed in Sunni thought. You
should seek to know Shi'ite thought through knowledgeable 
Shi'ite authors as well - at least that much respect is due before the
charge of heresy is levelled.

I'm looking for shading methods and algorithms.
Please let me know if you know where to get source codes for that.

Thanks a lot!

Thomas

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 
: 3DO is still a concept.
: The software is what sells and what will determine its
: success.

Apparantly you dont keep up on the news.  3DO was shown
at CES to developers and others at private showings.  Over
300 software licensees currently developing software for it.

This is, as far as I know, complete nonsense.  The codification of the bible
as we have it now came very much later.

Of course, if you're planning to pull a Rushdie then declaring one's
leaving the religion is little to be concerned about compared to one's
other plans.

In Rushdie's case, the one under discussion, one can. It is tragic that
in _some_ "Islamic" countries this is so. There are, however, Islamic
countries (whose constitutions contains statements that Islamic law is
to be incorporated), e.g. Kuwait, where one can freely make such
statements without fear.

This story has become tiresome. The conditions are clear. If you care to
make your point clear then make a chronology and show that he had made
public statements about leaving Islam prior to his writing of _TSV_. If
he did make such statements then he should have made _that_ clear rather
than trying to rejoin Islam or go on talking about his personal
feelings.

But Allen, if you can assume the existence of an SSTO there is no need
to have the contest in the first place.  I would think that what we
want to get out of the contest is the development of some of these
'cheaper' ways of doing things; if they already exist, why flush $1G
just to get someone to go to the Moon for a year?

-- 

I hope I didn't award custody, Rich.  I purposely used "handle" in order to 
avoid doing so - i.e., that happens to be what religions do (of course there are
aberrations like "scientific" creationism).  I used "best" in part to indicate 
that science currently has a time of it with why and who, so these domains are
mostly ignored.  I also attempted to be brief, which no doubt confused the
matter.  As an aside, for science I should have written "how and when".  Nobody
seems to argue over what.

Seems to me that the answer would vary from individual to individual.  I'm not
trying to be evasive on this, but from a societal perspective, religion works.
On the other hand, sometimes it is abused and misused, and many suffer, which
you know.  But the net result seems positive, this from the anthropological
perspective on human affairs.  You might call me a neo-Fruedian insofar as I 
think the masses can't get along without religion.  Not that generally they are 
incapable; they just don't, and for myriad reasons, but the main one seems to 
be the promise of immortality.  Very seductive, that immortality.  Therefore 
it seems that theologians are better equipped than the others you mention for 
dispensing answers to "who and why".  I suggest that this holds regardless of 
the "truth" in their answers to who and why simply because people believe.  
In the end, spiritual beliefs are just as "real" as scientific facts and 
explanation (CAUTION TO SOME: DO NOT TAKE THIS OUT OF CONTEXT).  

No.  In fact, I don't think it is closed now, at least for some individuals. 
Isn't there a group of theoretical physicists who argue that matter was 
created from nothing in a Big Bang singularity?  This approach might 
presuppose an absence of who and why, except that it seems it could be argued 
that something had to be responsible for nothing?  Maybe that something doesn't
have to be supernatural, maybe just mechanistic.  But that's a tough one for
people today to grasp.  In any case, theory without empirical data is not 
explanation, but then your question does not require data.  In other words, 
I agree that theorizing (within scientific parameters) is just as scientific 
as explaining.  So the answer is, who and why are not closed to scientists, but 
I sense that science in these realms is currently very inadequate.  Data will 
be necessary for improvement, and that seems a long way off, if ever.  Pretty 
convoluted here; I hope I've made sense.  

I agree generally.  But I prefer to put it this way - the *questions* of how, 
when, who and why were not open to inquiry.  During the Enlightenment, 
reason was reponsible for questioning the theological answers to how and when, 
and not, for the most part, who and why.  Science was thus born out of the 
naturalists' curiosity, eventually carting away the how and when while largely 
leaving behind the who and why.  The ignorant, the selfish, the intolerant, and
the arrogant, of course, still claim authority in all four domains.

Much obliged.  Funny how facts tend to muddle things, isn't it?  Well, I am
sure there are plenty of "scientific" creationist "rebuttals" out there 
somewhere, even if they have to be created from nothing.

[just for the record, again, AMH = anatomically modern humans] 

Best regards :-),

[my previous posting deleted]

The poster casually trashed two thousand years of Jewish history, and 
Ken replied that there had previously been people like him in Germany.

That's right.   There have been.    There have also been people who
were formally Nazis.   But the Nazi party would have gone nowhere
without the active and tacit support of the ordinary man in the
street who behaved as though casual anti-semitism was perfectly
acceptable.

Now what exactly don't you understand about what I wrote, and why
don't you see what it has to do with the matter at hand?

[stuff deleted...]

That's like saying that, since mathematics includes no instructions on
how to act, it is evil.  Atheism is not a moral system, so why should
it speak of instructions on how to act?  *Atheism is simply lack of
belief in God*.

  Plenty of theists

I think the argument that a particular theist system causes genocide
can be made more convincingly than an argument that atheism causes genocide.
This is because theist systems contain instructions on how to act,
and one or more of these can be shown to cause genocide.  However, since
the atheist set of instructions is the null set, how can you show that
atheism causes genocide?
--
David Choweller (davec@silicon.csci.csusb.edu)

There are scores of thousands of human insects who are
ready at a moment's notice to reveal the Will of God on
every possible subject.          --George Bernard Shaw.

Am I glad you write that. I got flamed all along because I begged NOT to
crosspost some nonsense articles.

The problem with crossposting is on the first poster. I am aware that this
posting is a crossposting too, but what else should one do. You never know
where the interested people stay in.

To split up newsgroups brings even more crossposting.

-- 

Jan Holler, Bern, Switzerland         Good is not good enough, make it better!
holli!holler@augs1.adsp.sub.org      ((Second chance: holler@iamexwi.unibe.ch))

Does anyone know of software that will allow
you to convert CorelDraw (.CDR) files
containing bitmaps to SCODAL, as this is the
only format our bureau's filmrecorder recognises.

Archive-name: space/new_probes
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:17 $

UPCOMING PLANETARY PROBES - MISSIONS AND SCHEDULES

    Information on upcoming or currently active missions not mentioned below
    would be welcome. Sources: NASA fact sheets, Cassini Mission Design
    team, ISAS/NASDA launch schedules, press kits.

    ASUKA (ASTRO-D) - ISAS (Japan) X-ray astronomy satellite, launched into
    Earth orbit on 2/20/93. Equipped with large-area wide-wavelength (1-20
    Angstrom) X-ray telescope, X-ray CCD cameras, and imaging gas
    scintillation proportional counters.

    CASSINI - Saturn orbiter and Titan atmosphere probe. Cassini is a joint
    NASA/ESA project designed to accomplish an exploration of the Saturnian
    system with its Cassini Saturn Orbiter and Huygens Titan Probe. Cassini
    is scheduled for launch aboard a Titan IV/Centaur in October of 1997.
    After gravity assists of Venus, Earth and Jupiter in a VVEJGA
    trajectory, the spacecraft will arrive at Saturn in June of 2004. Upon
    arrival, the Cassini spacecraft performs several maneuvers to achieve an
    orbit around Saturn. Near the end of this initial orbit, the Huygens
    Probe separates from the Orbiter and descends through the atmosphere of
    Titan. The Orbiter relays the Probe data to Earth for about 3 hours
    while the Probe enters and traverses the cloudy atmosphere to the
    surface. After the completion of the Probe mission, the Orbiter
    continues touring the Saturnian system for three and a half years. Titan
    synchronous orbit trajectories will allow about 35 flybys of Titan and
    targeted flybys of Iapetus, Dione and Enceladus. The objectives of the
    mission are threefold: conduct detailed studies of Saturn's atmosphere,
    rings and magnetosphere; conduct close-up studies of Saturn's
    satellites, and characterize Titan's atmosphere and surface.

    One of the most intriguing aspects of Titan is the possibility that its
    surface may be covered in part with lakes of liquid hydrocarbons that
    result from photochemical processes in its upper atmosphere. These
    hydrocarbons condense to form a global smog layer and eventually rain
    down onto the surface. The Cassini orbiter will use onboard radar to
    peer through Titan's clouds and determine if there is liquid on the
    surface. Experiments aboard both the orbiter and the entry probe will
    investigate the chemical processes that produce this unique atmosphere.

    The Cassini mission is named for Jean Dominique Cassini (1625-1712), the
    first director of the Paris Observatory, who discovered several of
    Saturn's satellites and the major division in its rings. The Titan
    atmospheric entry probe is named for the Dutch physicist Christiaan
    Huygens (1629-1695), who discovered Titan and first described the true
    nature of Saturn's rings.

	 Key Scheduled Dates for the Cassini Mission (VVEJGA Trajectory)
	 -------------------------------------------------------------
	   10/06/97 - Titan IV/Centaur Launch
	   04/21/98 - Venus 1 Gravity Assist
	   06/20/99 - Venus 2 Gravity Assist
	   08/16/99 - Earth Gravity Assist
	   12/30/00 - Jupiter Gravity Assist
	   06/25/04 - Saturn Arrival
	   01/09/05 - Titan Probe Release
	   01/30/05 - Titan Probe Entry
	   06/25/08 - End of Primary Mission
	    (Schedule last updated 7/22/92)

    GALILEO - Jupiter orbiter and atmosphere probe, in transit. Has returned
    the first resolved images of an asteroid, Gaspra, while in transit to
    Jupiter. Efforts to unfurl the stuck High-Gain Antenna (HGA) have
    essentially been abandoned. JPL has developed a backup plan using data
    compression (JPEG-like for images, lossless compression for data from
    the other instruments) which should allow the mission to achieve
    approximately 70% of its original objectives.

	   Galileo Schedule
	   ----------------
	   10/18/89 - Launch from Space Shuttle
	   02/09/90 - Venus Flyby
	   10/**/90 - Venus Data Playback
	   12/08/90 - 1st Earth Flyby
	   05/01/91 - High Gain Antenna Unfurled
	   07/91 - 06/92 - 1st Asteroid Belt Passage
	   10/29/91 - Asteroid Gaspra Flyby
	   12/08/92 - 2nd Earth Flyby
	   05/93 - 11/93 - 2nd Asteroid Belt Passage
	   08/28/93 - Asteroid Ida Flyby
	   07/02/95 - Probe Separation
	   07/09/95 - Orbiter Deflection Maneuver
	   12/95 - 10/97 - Orbital Tour of Jovian Moons
	   12/07/95 - Jupiter/Io Encounter
	   07/18/96 - Ganymede
	   09/28/96 - Ganymede
	   12/12/96 - Callisto
	   01/23/97 - Europa
	   02/28/97 - Ganymede
	   04/22/97 - Europa
	   05/31/97 - Europa
	   10/05/97 - Jupiter Magnetotail Exploration

    HITEN - Japanese (ISAS) lunar probe launched 1/24/90. Has made
    multiple lunar flybys. Released Hagoromo, a smaller satellite,
    into lunar orbit. This mission made Japan the third nation to
    orbit a satellite around the Moon.

    MAGELLAN - Venus radar mapping mission. Has mapped almost the entire
    surface at high resolution. Currently (4/93) collecting a global gravity
    map.

    MARS OBSERVER - Mars orbiter including 1.5 m/pixel resolution camera.
    Launched 9/25/92 on a Titan III/TOS booster. MO is currently (4/93) in
    transit to Mars, arriving on 8/24/93. Operations will start 11/93 for
    one martian year (687 days).

    TOPEX/Poseidon - Joint US/French Earth observing satellite, launched
    8/10/92 on an Ariane 4 booster. The primary objective of the
    TOPEX/POSEIDON project is to make precise and accurate global
    observations of the sea level for several years, substantially
    increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics. The satellite also
    will increase understanding of how heat is transported in the ocean.

    ULYSSES- European Space Agency probe to study the Sun from an orbit over
    its poles. Launched in late 1990, it carries particles-and-fields
    experiments (such as magnetometer, ion and electron collectors for
    various energy ranges, plasma wave radio receivers, etc.) but no camera.

    Since no human-built rocket is hefty enough to send Ulysses far out of
    the ecliptic plane, it went to Jupiter instead, and stole energy from
    that planet by sliding over Jupiter's north pole in a gravity-assist
    manuver in February 1992. This bent its path into a solar orbit tilted
    about 85 degrees to the ecliptic. It will pass over the Sun's south pole
    in the summer of 1993. Its aphelion is 5.2 AU, and, surprisingly, its
    perihelion is about 1.5 AU-- that's right, a solar-studies spacecraft
    that's always further from the Sun than the Earth is!

    While in Jupiter's neigborhood, Ulysses studied the magnetic and
    radiation environment. For a short summary of these results, see
    *Science*, V. 257, p. 1487-1489 (11 September 1992). For gory technical
    detail, see the many articles in the same issue.

    OTHER SPACE SCIENCE MISSIONS (note: this is based on a posting by Ron
    Baalke in 11/89, with ISAS/NASDA information contributed by Yoshiro
    Yamada (yamada@yscvax.ysc.go.jp). I'm attempting to track changes based
    on updated shuttle manifests; corrections and updates are welcome.

    1993 Missions
	o ALEXIS [spring, Pegasus]
	    ALEXIS (Array of Low-Energy X-ray Imaging Sensors) is to perform
	    a wide-field sky survey in the "soft" (low-energy) X-ray
	    spectrum. It will scan the entire sky every six months to search
	    for variations in soft-X-ray emission from sources such as white
	    dwarfs, cataclysmic variable stars and flare stars. It will also
	    search nearby space for such exotic objects as isolated neutron
	    stars and gamma-ray bursters. ALEXIS is a project of Los Alamos
	    National Laboratory and is primarily a technology development
	    mission that uses astrophysical sources to demonstrate the
	    technology. Contact project investigator Jeffrey J Bloch
	    (jjb@beta.lanl.gov) for more information.

	o Wind [Aug, Delta II rocket]
	    Satellite to measure solar wind input to magnetosphere.

	o Space Radar Lab [Sep, STS-60 SRL-01]
	    Gather radar images of Earth's surface.

	o Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer [Dec, Pegasus rocket]
	    Study of Stratospheric ozone.

	o SFU (Space Flyer Unit) [ISAS]
	    Conducting space experiments and observations and this can be
	    recovered after it conducts the various scientific and
	    engineering experiments. SFU is to be launched by ISAS and
	    retrieved by the U.S. Space Shuttle on STS-68 in 1994.

    1994
	o Polar Auroral Plasma Physics [May, Delta II rocket]
	    June, measure solar wind and ions and gases surrounding the
	    Earth.

	o IML-2 (STS) [NASDA, Jul 1994 IML-02]
	    International Microgravity Laboratory.

	o ADEOS [NASDA]
	    Advanced Earth Observing Satellite.

	o MUSES-B (Mu Space Engineering Satellite-B) [ISAS]
	    Conducting research on the precise mechanism of space structure
	    and in-space astronomical observations of electromagnetic waves.

    1995
	LUNAR-A [ISAS]
	    Elucidating the crust structure and thermal construction of the
	    moon's interior.

    Proposed Missions:
	o Advanced X-ray Astronomy Facility (AXAF)
	    Possible launch from shuttle in 1995, AXAF is a space
	    observatory with a high resolution telescope. It would orbit for
	    15 years and study the mysteries and fate of the universe.

	o Earth Observing System (EOS)
	    Possible launch in 1997, 1 of 6 US orbiting space platforms to
	    provide long-term data (15 years) of Earth systems science
	    including planetary evolution.

	o Mercury Observer
	    Possible 1997 launch.

	o Lunar Observer
	    Possible 1997 launch, would be sent into a long-term lunar
	    orbit. The Observer, from 60 miles above the moon's poles, would
	    survey characteristics to provide a global context for the
	    results from the Apollo program.

	o Space Infrared Telescope Facility
	    Possible launch by shuttle in 1999, this is the 4th element of
	    the Great Observatories program. A free-flying observatory with
	    a lifetime of 5 to 10 years, it would observe new comets and
	    other primitive bodies in the outer solar system, study cosmic
	    birth formation of galaxies, stars and planets and distant
	    infrared-emitting galaxies

	o Mars Rover Sample Return (MRSR)
	    Robotics rover would return samples of Mars' atmosphere and
	    surface to Earch for analysis. Possible launch dates: 1996 for
	    imaging orbiter, 2001 for rover.

	o Fire and Ice
	    Possible launch in 2001, will use a gravity assist flyby of
	    Earth in 2003, and use a final gravity assist from Jupiter in
	    2005, where the probe will split into its Fire and Ice
	    components: The Fire probe will journey into the Sun, taking
	    measurements of our star's upper atmosphere until it is
	    vaporized by the intense heat. The Ice probe will head out
	    towards Pluto, reaching the tiny world for study by 2016.

The "`little' things" above were in reference to Germany, clearly.  People
said that there were similar things in Germany, but no one could name any.
They said that these were things that everyone should know, and that they
weren't going to waste their time repeating them.  Sounds to me like no one
knew, either.  I looked in some books, but to no avail.

It has *caused* problems?  Again, no one has shown that things were better
before the motto, or that they'd likely be better after.  I don't think
the motto initiates any sort of harassment.  Harassment will occur whether
or not the motto is present.

Okay here is what I have so far:

Have a group (any size, preferibly small, but?) send a human being to the moon,
set up a habitate and have the human(s) spend one earth year on the moon. Does
that mean no resupply or ?? 

Need to find atleast $1billion for prize money.

Contest open to different classes of participants.

New Mexico State has semi-challenged University of Alaska (any branch) to put a
team together and to do it..
Any other University/College/Institute of Higher Learning wish to make a
counter challenge or challenge another school? Say it here.

I like the idea of having atleast a russian team.

Some prefer using new technology, others old or ..

The basic idea of the New Moon Race is like the Solar Car Race acrossed
Australia.. Atleast in that basic vein of endevour..

Any other suggestions?

Archie told me the following sites holding documentation about DXF:

Host nic.funet.fi   (128.214.6.100)
Last updated 15:11  7 Apr 1993

    Location: /pub/csc/graphics/format
      FILE      rwxrwxr--     95442  Dec  4  1991   dxf.doc

Host rainbow.cse.nau.edu   (134.114.64.24)
Last updated 17:09  1 Jun 1992

    Location: /graphics/formats
      FILE      rw-r--r--     95442  Mar 23 23:31   dxf.doc

Host ftp.waseda.ac.jp   (133.9.1.32)
Last updated 00:47  5 Apr 1993

    Location: /pub/data/graphic
      FILE      rw-r--r--     39753  Nov 18  1991   dxf.doc.Z

I am looking for any information about the space program.
This includes NASA, the shuttles, history, anything!  I would like to
know if anyone could suggest books, periodicals, even ftp sites for a
novice who is interested in the space program.

  ...

I think this is a big leap sex->depression.  One example is myself,
where no sex->depression :)  But, seriously 1) promiscuity is on a decline,
depression is not and 2) it might be more reasonable to say 
depression->promiscuity.  I think depression is more likely to come
from emotional problems (relationships, family, job, friends) and
promiscuity is used as an escape.
Since I see marriage as a civil and religious bond rather than an
emotional bond, I don't see a problem with sex before (not outside of)
marriage so long as you have the same commitment and devotion as
what is expected from a married couple.  Of course, this is just 
my opinion.

Why must it be a US Government Space Launch Pad? Directly I mean..
I know of a few that could launch a small package into space.
Not including Ariadne, and the Russian Sites.. I know "Poker Flats" here in
Alaska, thou used to be only sounding rockets for Auroral Borealous(sp and
other northern atmospheric items, is at last I heard being upgraded to be able
to put sattelites into orbit. 

Why must people in the US be fixed on using NASAs direct resources (Poker Flats
is runin part by NASA, but also by the Univesity of Alaska, and the Geophysical
Institute). Sounds like typical US cultural centralism and protectionism..
And people wonder why we have the multi-trillion dollar deficite(sp).
Yes, I am working on a spell checker..

Can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation? 

He was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards, in answer to
the question what he had been thinking about, said (approximately) "half a
million components, each has to work perfectly, each supplied by the lowest
bidder....." 

Attribution and correction of the quote would be much appreciated. 

please tell me where you where you FTP'd this from? I would like to have
a copy of it. (I would have mailed you, but your post indicates you have no mail
address...)

There is a rite like this described in Joseph Campbell's
_Occidental_Mythology_.  He also described levels of initiation, I think
6?  I don't know where Campbell got his info, but I remember thinking he
was being a little eclectic.

Quite a bit.  If you haven't read Campbell, give him a try.  

Just to remark that I have heard that David Koresh has risen from 
the dead.  I dont know if it is true or not, but this is what I have
been told.  What do you guys think?

We run "SpaceNews & Views" on our STAREACH BBS, a local
operation running WWIV software with the capability to link to
over 1500 other BBS's in the U.S.A. and Canada through WWIVNet.
   Having just started this a couple of months ago, our sub us
currently subscribed by only about ten other boards, but more
are being added.
   We get our news articles re on Internet, via ftp from NASA
sites, and from a variety of aerospace related periodicals. We
get a fair amount of questions on space topics from students
who access the system.
 ____________________________________________________________

	COuld he?  And the first three that died, when guns ablazing in came
	the BATF and FBI?

	I imagine I would have some trouble giving up my children to
	someone who had just shot -- what -- two of them?

	NB:  It takes two sets of guns in a situation like this.

	Fanatical:  those whowill not tolerate another's way of life
	Religious:  Based on emotional, internal, or otherwise
		lacking in commonly defined _scientific_ basis,
		including legal ones, such as this old saw:

			Innocent untilproven guilty

		not
			Innocent until presumed guilty

	Who is the fanatic?  Note who is dead; this usually bespeaks
	a fair bit for the idea that the OTHER side also had lethal
	weapons, used fatally.

		They are dead:  the children.
			At best Koresh was an asshole and the government
			criminally negligent in its hadni\ling of the case.

			At worst, Koresh and his followers were
				innocent
				not brainwashed
				guilty of illegal arms possession
					(as yet unproven)
				and murderedd
				along with 25 children
			They cannot speak for themselves
			Members of the (surviving, alive, and not burned
				to death) BATF/FBI can, and are
				inappropriately
				to the public eye
				outside the bounds of their legal authorities
					read the charter:
					the Constitution specifies that
					the COURTS convict, while the
					enforcement arm INVESTIGATES,
					and that the evidence involved
					shuld not be disseminated in a
					way to harm or injure a party
					involved prior to that action;
					its called slander or libel
					(even where factually true butthen
					distoted or disseminated with intent
					to harm
				for the purpose of covering their butts

			because the bottom line is:
				they SAID they wanted the kids to get out
					alive
				and theFBI, the BATF, Ms. Reno, the Prez,
					and EVERYBODY ELSE IN THIS

						SICK
						SELFSERVING
						GROUP OF UPRIGHT ANIMALS
					that used to be a freedom loving
					peaceful country called

						America:  look up the name,
						it might surprise you
				has turned the "point the finger of blame"
				on the OTHER guy.
			
				and LET THOSE KIDS DIE.

				Note well:  they lived 51 days; they only
				died when attacked by outside force.

			SPock's World, Diane Duane:

				The spear in the heart of another
				is the spear in your own ....

		ALL of us are responsible.

		Iam; you are.  The question is not whether, but how:

			Guess what:  you get to make up your own mind
			on that.

	Who created the war zone?  You should be ashamed of bypassing that.
	It's the same damned (Literally) comment made by the folks in
	the former Yugoslavia to justify Ethnic Cleansing:

		"Gee, they had the guns, all they had to do was surrender".

	Whose "cause" did they die for?  The one where they lived,
	peacibly, to all known purposes (until proven in COurt,
	folks!), or the Cuase of Righteous Government SafeGuarding 
	The Freedom Of The CHildren

		Who are now dead.

	AgainI say:

		I do NOT know who did what
		I was NOT there.
		The FBI leaders show moral SICKness trying to
			convict in the press ahead of schedule
		And you should look over your shoulder,

		becuase if there is anything my ruminations that
		actually  sets onto real fact of what happened

			and I do not know that; I am defending
			people who ahving been burned to death cannot
			speak for themselves

		you may, in 22-5 years, find that the concept in our
		Court system  has gone from

			Due Processss

		to

			Due Profit

		and the BATF come to collect their fair share of the tax
		on the value of your house if you rented it for income

			which is going down now, folks.
			Read Bankruptcy 1995
				Its accurate in figures
				and it bypasses the greedy
					businessman and
					mankers who have
				taken profit from the corruption
				of our govbernment.

			Look to where the money went, folks.

			You  got $10 for medicare that paid a doctor for
			$00.50 worth of medicine.

				This is the customaryprofitmargin
				to businessmen for goernment entitlements.

	Who wll own the land of the cult now?  Note well:  it WAS nonproift,
	religious, and nontaxable.  Large tract of land .... hmmm.

	Use your brains, folks:  it happened Germany, and it can happen
	here.
			4.3 trillion (admitted) and counting....

royc.

Sorry, but it doesn't matter what _you_ think, I am a Christian, who happens to
belong to the LDS Church.  [The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints].

I don't usually read t.r.m.  It is truly informative to stop by, and see that there
are still people in the world like those that forced my ancestors into the deserts
of Utah, and then out of the country entirely.  (My grandmother was born in Mexico,
where her family had moved to escape religious persecution in the US).  I'm willing
to admit that members of other churches are Christians, if they believe in Christ and
(try to) follow his teachings, even though they have different interpretations of 
the bible.  And yet these other churches often go out of their way to define whether
or not I am considered to be Christian.  Could someone mail me a set of rules/beliefs
that must be followed to be a Christian?  Does this set of rules exclude other large
bodies of believers?  

I know, this is a waste of everyone's time, this has probably been discussed N times,
etc.  I guess I'm more sensitive to this 'demonization' after what went on in Texas.

Maybe not to you.  But to those who stand on this base, He is 
precious.

Yeah, right.

So, let's see. If some guy writes a piece with a title that implies
something is the case then it must be so, is that it?

This supports nothing. I have no reason to believe that this is 
piece is anything other than another anti-Islamic slander job.
I have no respect for titles, only for real content. I can look
up this article if I want, true. But I can tell you BCCI was _not_
an Islamic bank. Seeing as I'm spending my time responding to
propaganda (in responding to this little sub-thread) I really
don't feel a deep need to do more than make statements to the
effect that the propaganda is false. If someone wants to discuss
the issue more seriously then I'd be glad to have a real discussion,
providing references, etc.

Visual Numerics Inc. (formerly IMSL and Precision Visuals) is in the
process of securing sites for beta testing X Exponent Graphics 1.0 
and C Exponent Graphics 2.0.  (Both X Exponent Graphics and C Exponent
Graphics are 3GL products).  The beta period is from April 26 through 
June 18.  The platform is HP9000/700 running under OS 8.07 with 
ansi C 8.71 compiler.  The media will be sent on 4mm DAT cartridge 
tape.  Here are some of the key facts about the two products.
 
X Exponent Graphics 1.0 key facts:
 
1. Complete collection of high-level 2D and 3D application plot types
   available through a large collection of X resources.
2. Cstom widget for OSF/Motif developers.
3. Built-in interactive GUI for plot customization.
4. Easily-implemented callbacks for customized application feedback.
5. XEG 1.0, being built on the Xt Toolkit provides the user a widget 
   library that conforms to the expected syntax and standards familar 
   to X programmers.
6. XEG will also be sold as a bundle with Visual Edge's UIM/X product.
   This will enable user to use a GUI builder to create the graphical
   layout of an application.
 
C Exponent Graphics 2.0 key facts:
 
1. Written in C for C application programmers/developers.  The library
   is 100% written in C, and the programming interface conforms to C
   standards, taking advantage fo the most desirable features of C.
2. Build-in GUI for interactive plot customization.  Through mouse 
   interaction, the user has complete interactive graph output control
   with over 200 graphics attributes for plot customization.
3. Large collection of high-level application functions for "two-call"
   graph creation.  A wide variety of 2D and 3D plot types are available
   with minimal programming effort.
4. User ability to interrupt and control the X event.  By controlling
   the X event loop, when the user use the mouse to manipulate the  plot
   the user can allow CEG to control the event loop or the user can 
   control the event loop.
 
If anyone is interested in beta testing either of the products, please
contact Wendy Hou at Visual Numerics via email at hou@imsl.com or call
713-279-1066.
 
-- 
Jaclyn Brandt
jbrandt@NeoSoft.com

I can't find CTDS (Connect The Dots Smoother) in France. If it is a commercial
program I'll happily pay whatever it may cost (do not take it litterally).
Please help!
I have *LOTS* of PoV sources, texture images and animations though, if you
are looking for something, just tell.

I was recently talking to a possible employer ( mine! :-) ) and he made a reference to a
48-bit graphics computer/image processing system.  I seem to remember it being called IMAGE or
something akin to that.  Anyway, he claimed it had 48-bit color + a 12-bit alpha channel.  That's
60 bits of info--what could that possibly be for?  Specifically the 48-bit color?  That's 280
trillion colors, many more than the human eye can resolve.  Is this an anti-aliasing thing?  Or
is this just some magic number to make it work better with a certain processor.

	Also, to settle a bet with my roommate, what are SGI's flagship products?  I know of
Iris, Indigo, and Crimson, but what are the other ones, and which is their top-of-the-line?
(sadly, I have access to none of them.  Just a DEC 5000/25.  Sigh.)

You could take my wrongly spelled surname :-).

Cheers,
Kent Sandvik

:
Oh, yeah?  Well---*I* know of ....

Anyways, cannibalism is much more commmon than those who feel that it is wrong
(and then point out that the fact that western civilisation doesn't do it is
PROOF positive that we are more advanced) would have us believe.  Cannibalism
is often used in funeral ceremonies as a way of keeping the deceased loved one
alive.  Many other cultures (including many American Indian cultures) eat/ate
the flesh of slain enemies, often as a way of showing respect for the valor of
the departed.  Hearts are often favored for this, as it contains the spirit.

Have you ever read or seen "Alive", which is the story of the Argentinian boys
soccer team that crashed in the Andes and then ate the bodies of those who died
in order to survive?  Finger lickin good.  How about the Twighlight Zone
episode "To Serve Man"?

If you want more info on this, a good place to start is on sci.anthropology

Now send me $20 and eat my flesh,

Sure nails can be cruel.  I'd imagine nails in your eyes would be
*very* painful.  But, this does not imply that a painless death is
cruel, which is what you are supposed to be trying to show.

LARSONIAN Astronomy and Physics

               Orthodox physicists, astronomers, and astrophysicists 
          CLAIM to be looking for a "Unified Field Theory" in which all 
          of the forces of the universe can be explained with a single 
          set of laws or equations.  But they have been systematically 
          IGNORING or SUPPRESSING an excellent one for 30 years! 

               The late Physicist Dewey B. Larson's comprehensive 
          GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe, which he 
          calls the "Reciprocal System", is built on two fundamental 
          postulates about the physical and mathematical natures of 
          space and time: 
    
               (1) "The physical universe is composed ENTIRELY of ONE 
          component, MOTION, existing in THREE dimensions, in DISCRETE 
          UNITS, and in two RECIPROCAL forms, SPACE and TIME." 
    
               (2) "The physical universe conforms to the relations of 
          ORDINARY COMMUTATIVE mathematics, its magnitudes are 
          ABSOLUTE, and its geometry is EUCLIDEAN." 
    
               From these two postulates, Larson developed a COMPLETE 
          Theoretical Universe, using various combinations of 
          translational, vibrational, rotational, and vibrational-
          rotational MOTIONS, the concepts of IN-ward and OUT-ward 
          SCALAR MOTIONS, and speeds in relation to the Speed of Light 
          (which Larson called "UNIT VELOCITY" and "THE NATURAL 
          DATUM"). 
      
               At each step in the development, Larson was able to 
          MATCH objects in his Theoretical Universe with objects in the 
          REAL physical universe, (photons, sub-atomic particles 
          [INCOMPLETE ATOMS], charges, atoms, molecules, globular star 
          clusters, galaxies, binary star systems, solar systems, white 
          dwarf stars, pulsars, quasars, ETC.), even objects NOT YET 
          DISCOVERED THEN (such as EXPLODING GALAXIES, and GAMMA-RAY 
          BURSTS). 
          
               And applying his Theory to his NEW model of the atom, 
          Larson was able to precisely and accurately CALCULATE inter-
          atomic distances in crystals and molecules, compressibility 
          and thermal expansion of solids, and other properties of 
          matter. 

               All of this is described in good detail, with-OUT fancy 
          complex mathematics, in his books. 
    
          BOOKS of Dewey B. Larson
          
               The following is a complete list of the late Physicist 
          Dewey B. Larson's books about his comprehensive GENERAL 
          UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe.  Some of the early 
          books are out of print now, but still available through 
          inter-library loan. 
    
               "The Structure of the Physical Universe" (1959) 
    
               "The Case AGAINST the Nuclear Atom" (1963)
    
               "Beyond Newton" (1964) 
    
               "New Light on Space and Time" (1965) 
    
               "Quasars and Pulsars" (1971) 
    
               "NOTHING BUT MOTION" (1979) 
                    [A $9.50 SUBSTITUTE for the $8.3 BILLION "Super 
                                                            Collider".] 
                    [The last four chapters EXPLAIN chemical bonding.]

               "The Neglected Facts of Science" (1982) 
     
               "THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION" (1984)
                    [FINAL SOLUTIONS to most ALL astrophysical
                                                            mysteries.] 
      
               "BASIC PROPERTIES OF MATTER" (1988)

               All but the last of these books were published by North 
          Pacific Publishers, P.O. Box 13255, Portland, OR  97213, and 
          should be available via inter-library loan if your local 
          university or public library doesn't have each of them. 

               Several of them, INCLUDING the last one, are available 
          from: The International Society of Unified Science (ISUS), 
          1680 E. Atkin Ave., Salt Lake City, Utah  84106.  This is the 
          organization that was started to promote Larson's Theory.  
          They have other related publications, including the quarterly 
          journal "RECIPROCITY". 

          Physicist Dewey B. Larson's Background
    
               Physicist Dewey B. Larson was a retired Engineer 
          (Chemical or Electrical).  He was about 91 years old when he 
          died in May 1989.  He had a Bachelor of Science Degree in 
          Engineering Science from Oregon State University.  He 
          developed his comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the 
          physical universe while trying to develop a way to COMPUTE 
          chemical properties based only on the elements used. 
    
               Larson's lack of a fancy "PH.D." degree might be one 
          reason that orthodox physicists are ignoring him, but it is 
          NOT A VALID REASON.  Sometimes it takes a relative outsider 
          to CLEARLY SEE THE FOREST THROUGH THE TREES.  At the same 
          time, it is clear from his books that he also knew ORTHODOX 
          physics and astronomy as well as ANY physicist or astronomer, 
          well enough to point out all their CONTRADICTIONS, AD HOC 
          ASSUMPTIONS, PRINCIPLES OF IMPOTENCE, IN-CONSISTENCIES, ETC.. 
     
               Larson did NOT have the funds, etc. to experimentally 
          test his Theory.  And it was NOT necessary for him to do so.  
          He simply compared the various parts of his Theory with OTHER 
          researchers' experimental and observational data.  And in 
          many cases, HIS explanation FIT BETTER. 
    
               A SELF-CONSISTENT Theory is MUCH MORE than the ORTHODOX 
          physicists and astronomers have!  They CLAIM to be looking 
          for a "unified field theory" that works, but have been 
          IGNORING one for over 30 years now! 
    
               "Modern physics" does NOT explain the physical universe 
          so well.  Some parts of some of Larson's books are FULL of 
          quotations of leading orthodox physicists and astronomers who 
          agree.  And remember that "epicycles", "crystal spheres", 
          "geocentricity", "flat earth theory", etc., ALSO once SEEMED 
          to explain it well, but were later proved CONCEPTUALLY WRONG. 
    
               Prof. Frank H. Meyer, Professor Emeritus of UW-Superior, 
          was/is a STRONG PROPONENT of Larson's Theory, and was (or 
          still is) President of Larson's organization, "THE 
          INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY OF UNIFIED SCIENCE", and Editor of 
          their quarterly Journal "RECIPROCITY".  He moved to 
          Minneapolis after retiring. 
    
          "Super Collider" BOONDOGGLE!
          
               I am AGAINST contruction of the "Superconducting Super 
          Collider", in Texas or anywhere else.  It would be a GROSS 
          WASTE of money, and contribute almost NOTHING of "scientific" 
          value. 
    
               Most physicists don't realize it, but, according to the 
          comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the late Physicist 
          Dewey B. Larson, as described in his books, the strange GOOFY 
          particles ("mesons", "hyperons", ALLEGED "quarks", etc.) 
          which they are finding in EXISTING colliders (Fermi Lab, 
          Cern, etc.) are really just ATOMS of ANTI-MATTER, which are 
          CREATED by the high-energy colliding beams, and which quickly 
          disintegrate like cosmic rays because they are incompatible 
          with their environment. 
    
               A larger and more expensive collider will ONLY create a 
          few more elements of anti-matter that the physicists have not 
          seen there before, and the physicists will be EVEN MORE 
          CONFUSED THAN THEY ARE NOW! 
    
               Are a few more types of anti-matter atoms worth the $8.3 
          BILLION cost?!!  Don't we have much more important uses for 
          this WASTED money?! 
    
               Another thing to consider is that the primary proposed 
          location in Texas has a serious and growing problem with some 
          kind of "fire ants" eating the insulation off underground 
          cables.  How much POISONING of the ground and ground water 
          with insecticides will be required to keep the ants out of 
          the "Supercollider"?! 
    
               Naming the "Super Collider" after Ronald Reagon, as 
          proposed, is TOTALLY ABSURD!  If it is built, it should be 
          named after a leading particle PHYSICIST. 
      
          LARSONIAN Anti-Matter
          
               In Larson's comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the 
          physical universe, anti-matter is NOT a simple case of 
          opposite charges of the same types of particles.  It has more 
          to do with the rates of vibrations and rotations of the 
          photons of which they are made, in relation to the 
          vibrational and rotational equivalents of the speed of light, 
          which Larson calls "Unit Velocity" and the "Natural Datum". 
     
               In Larson's Theory, a positron is actually a particle of 
          MATTER, NOT anti-matter.  When a positron and electron meet, 
          the rotational vibrations (charges) and rotations of their 
          respective photons (of which they are made) neutralize each 
          other. 
      
               In Larson's Theory, the ANTI-MATTER half of the physical 
          universe has THREE dimensions of TIME, and ONLY ONE dimension 
          of space, and exists in a RECIPROCAL RELATIONSHIP to our 
          MATERIAL half. 
       
          LARSONIAN Relativity
          
               The perihelion point in the orbit of the planet Mercury 
          has been observed and precisely measured to ADVANCE at the 
          rate of 574 seconds of arc per century.  531 seconds of this 
          advance are attributed via calculations to gravitational 
          perturbations from the other planets (Venus, Earth, Jupiter, 
          etc.).  The remaining 43 seconds of arc are being used to 
          help "prove" Einstein's "General Theory of Relativity". 
    
               But the late Physicist Dewey B. Larson achieved results 
          CLOSER to the 43 seconds than "General Relativity" can, by 
          INSTEAD using "SPECIAL Relativity".  In one or more of his 
          books, he applied the LORENTZ TRANSFORMATION on the HIGH 
          ORBITAL SPEED of Mercury. 
    
               Larson TOTALLY REJECTED "General Relativity" as another 
          MATHEMATICAL FANTASY.  He also REJECTED most of "Special 
          Relativity", including the parts about "mass increases" near 
          the speed of light, and the use of the Lorentz Transform on 
          doppler shifts, (Those quasars with red-shifts greater than 
          1.000 REALLY ARE MOVING FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT, 
          although most of that motion is away from us IN TIME.). 
     
          physical universe, there are THREE dimensions of time instead 
          of only one.  But two of those dimensions can NOT be measured 
          from our material half of the physical universe.  The one 
          dimension that we CAN measure is the CLOCK time.  At low 
          relative speeds, the values of the other two dimensions are 
          NEGLIGIBLE; but at high speeds, they become significant, and 
          the Lorentz Transformation must be used as a FUDGE FACTOR. 
          [Larson often used the term "COORDINATE TIME" when writing 
          about this.] 
    
               In regard to "mass increases", it has been PROVEN in 
          atomic accelerators that acceleration drops toward zero near 
          the speed of light.  But the formula for acceleration is 
          ACCELERATION = FORCE / MASS, (a = F/m).  Orthodox physicists 
          are IGNORING the THIRD FACTOR: FORCE.  In Larson's Theory, 
          mass STAYS CONSTANT and FORCE drops toward zero.  FORCE is 
          actually a MOTION, or COMBINATIONS of MOTIONS, or RELATIONS 
          BETWEEN MOTIONS, including INward and OUTward SCALAR MOTIONS.  
          The expansion of the universe, for example, is an OUTward 
          SCALAR motion inherent in the universe and NOT a result of 
          the so-called "Big Bang" (which is yet another MATHEMATICAL 
          FANTASY). 
    
          THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION

               I wish to recommend to EVERYONE the book "THE UNIVERSE 
          OF MOTION", by Dewey B. Larson, 1984, North Pacific 
          Publishers, (P.O. Box 13255, Portland, Oregon  97213), 456 
          pages, indexed, hardcover. 
    
               It contains the Astrophysical portions of a GENERAL 
          UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe developed by that 
          author, an UNrecognized GENIUS, more than thirty years ago. 
    
               It contains FINAL SOLUTIONS to most ALL Astrophysical 
          mysteries, including the FORMATION of galaxies, binary and 
          multiple star systems, and solar systems, the TRUE ORIGIN of 
          the "3-degree" background radiation, cosmic rays, and gamma-
          ray bursts, and the TRUE NATURE of quasars, pulsars, white 
          dwarfs, exploding galaxies, etc.. 
    
               It contains what astronomers and astrophysicists are ALL 
          looking for, if they are ready to seriously consider it with 
          OPEN MINDS! 
    
               The following is an example of his Theory's success: 
          In his first book in 1959, "THE STRUCTURE OF THE PHYSICAL 
          UNIVERSE", Larson predicted the existence of EXPLODING 
          GALAXIES, several years BEFORE astronomers started finding 
          them.  They are a NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of Larson's 
          comprehensive Theory.  And when QUASARS were discovered, he 
          had an immediate related explanation for them also. 
    
          GAMMA-RAY BURSTS

               Astro-physicists and astronomers are still scratching 
          their heads about the mysterious GAMMA-RAY BURSTS.  They were 
          originally thought to originate from "neutron stars" in the 
          disc of our galaxy.  But the new Gamma Ray Telescope now in 
          Earth orbit has been detecting them in all directions 
          uniformly, and their source locations in space do NOT 
          correspond to any known objects, (except for a few cases of 
          directional coincidence). 
    
               Gamma-ray bursts are a NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of the 
          GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe developed by 
          the late Physicist Dewey B. Larson.  According to page 386 of 
          his book "THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION", published in 1984, the 
          gamma-ray bursts are coming from SUPERNOVA EXPLOSIONS in the 
          ANTI-MATTER HALF of the physical universe, which Larson calls 
          the "Cosmic Sector".  Because of the relationship between the 
          anti-matter and material halves of the physical universe, and 
          the way they are connected together, the gamma-ray bursts can 
          pop into our material half anywhere in space, seemingly at 
          random.  (This is WHY the source locations of the bursts do 
          not correspond with known objects, and come from all 
          directions uniformly.) 
    
               I wonder how close to us in space a source location 
          would have to be for a gamma-ray burst to kill all or most 
          life on Earth!  There would be NO WAY to predict one, NOR to 
          stop it! 
    
               Perhaps some of the MASS EXTINCTIONS of the past, which 
          are now being blamed on impacts of comets and asteroids, were 
          actually caused by nearby GAMMA-RAY BURSTS! 
    
          LARSONIAN Binary Star Formation
          
               About half of all the stars in the galaxy in the 
          vicinity of the sun are binary or double.  But orthodox 
          astronomers and astrophysicists still have no satisfactory 
          theory about how they form or why there are so many of them. 
    
               But binary star systems are actually a LIKELY 
          CONSEQUENCE of the comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of 
          the physical universe developed by the late Physicist Dewey 
          B. Larson. 
    
               I will try to summarize Larsons explanation, which is 
          detailed in Chapter 7 of his book "THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION" 
          and in some of his other books. 
    
               First of all, according to Larson, stars do NOT generate 
          energy by "fusion".  A small fraction comes from slow 
          gravitational collapse.  The rest results from the COMPLETE 
          ANNIHILATION of HEAVY elements (heavier than IRON).  Each 
          element has a DESTRUCTIVE TEMPERATURE LIMIT.  The heavier the 
          element is, the lower is this limit.  A star's internal 
          temperature increases as it grows in mass via accretion and 
          absorption of the decay products of cosmic rays, gradually 
          reaching the destructive temperature limit of lighter and 
          lighter elements. 
    
               When the internal temperature of the star reaches the 
          destructive temperature limit of IRON, there is a Type I 
          SUPERNOVA EXPLOSION!  This is because there is SO MUCH iron 
          present; and that is related to the structure of iron atoms 
          and the atom building process, which Larson explains in some 
          of his books [better than I can]. 
    
               When the star explodes, the lighter material on the 
          outer portion of the star is blown outward in space at less 
          than the speed of light.  The heavier material in the center 
          portion of the star was already bouncing around at close to 
          the speed of light, because of the high temperature.  The 
          explosion pushes that material OVER the speed of light, and 
          it expands OUTWARD IN TIME, which is equivalent to INWARD IN 
          SPACE, and it often actually DISAPPEARS for a while. 
    
               Over long periods of time, both masses start to fall 
          back gravitationally.  The material that had been blown 
          outward in space now starts to form a RED GIANT star.  The 
          material that had been blown OUTWARD IN TIME starts to form a 
          WHITE DWARF star.  BOTH stars then start moving back toward 
          the "MAIN SEQUENCE" from opposite directions on the H-R 
          Diagram. 
    
               The chances of the two masses falling back into the 
          exact same location in space, making a single lone star 
          again, are near zero.  They will instead form a BINARY 
          system, orbiting each other. 
     
               According to Larson, a white dwarf star has an INVERSE 
          DENSITY GRADIENT (is densest at its SURFACE), because the 
          material at its center is most widely dispersed (blown 
          outward) in time.   This ELIMINATES the need to resort to 
          MATHEMATICAL FANTASIES about "degenerate matter", "neutron 
          stars", "black holes", etc.. 
    
          LARSONIAN Solar System Formation

               If the mass of the heavy material at the center of the 
          exploding star is relatively SMALL, then, instead of a single 
          white dwarf star, there will be SEVERAL "mini" white dwarf 
          stars (revolving around the red giant star, but probably 
          still too far away in three-dimensional TIME to be affected 
          by its heat, etc.).  These will become PLANETS! 
      
               In Chapter 7 of THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION, Larson used all 
          this information, and other principles of his comprehensive 
          GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe, to derive 
          his own version of Bode's Law. 
          
          "Black Hole" FANTASY!

               I heard that physicist Stephen W. Hawking recently 
          completed a theoretical mathematical analysis of TWO "black 
          holes" merging together into a SINGLE "black hole", and 
          concluded that the new "black hole" would have MORE MASS than 
          the sum of the two original "black holes". 
    
               Such a result should be recognized by EVERYone as a RED 
          FLAG, causing widespread DOUBT about the whole IDEA of "black 
          holes", etc.! 
    
               After reading Physicist Dewey B. Larson's books about 
          his comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical 
          universe, especially his book "THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION", it is 
          clear to me that "black holes" are NOTHING more than 
          MATHEMATICAL FANTASIES!  The strange object at Cygnus X-1 is 
          just an unusually massive WHITE DWARF STAR, NOT the "black 
          hole" that orthodox astronomers and physicists so badly want 
          to "prove" their theory. 
    
               By the way, I do NOT understand why so much publicity is 
          being given to physicist Stephen Hawking.  The physicists and 
          astronomers seem to be acting as if Hawking's severe physical 
          problem somehow makes him "wiser".  It does NOT! 
    
               I wish the same attention had been given to Physicist 
          Dewey B. Larson while he was still alive.  Widespread 
          publicity and attention should NOW be given to Larson's 
          Theory, books, and organization (The International Society of 
          Unified Science). 
          
          ELECTRO-MAGNETIC PROPULSION

               I heard of that concept many years ago, in connection 
          with UFO's and unorthodox inventors, but I never was able to 
          find out how or why they work, or how they are constructed. 
    
               I found a possible clue about why they might work on 
          pages 112-113 of the book "BASIC PROPERTIES OF MATTER", by 
          the late Physicist Dewey B. Larson, which describes part of 
          Larson's comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical 
          universe.  I quote one paragraph: 
    
               "As indicated in the preceding chapter, the development 
          of the theory of the universe of motion arrives at a totally 
          different concept of the nature of electrical resistance.  
          The electrons, we find, are derived from the environment.  It 
          was brought out in Volume I [Larson's book "NOTHING BUT 
          MOTION"] that there are physical processes in operation which 
          produce electrons in substantial quantities, and that, 
          although the motions that constitute these electrons are, in 
          many cases, absorbed by atomic structures, the opportunities 
          for utilizing this type of motion in such structures are 
          limited.  It follows that there is always a large excess of 
          free electrons in the material sector [material half] of the 
          universe, most of which are uncharged.  In this uncharged 
          state the electrons cannot move with respect to extension 
          space, because they are inherently rotating units of space, 
          and the relation of space to space is not motion.  In open 
          space, therefore, each uncharged electron remains permanently 
          in the same location with respect to the natural reference 
          system, in the manner of a photon.  In the context of the 
          stationary spatial reference system the uncharged electron, 
          like the photon, is carried outward at the speed of light by 
          the progression of the natural reference system.  All 
          material aggregates are thus exposed to a flux of electrons 
          similar to the continual bombardment by photons of radiation.  
          Meanwhile there are other processes, to be discussed later, 
          whereby electrons are returned to the environment.  The 
          electron population of a material aggregate such as the earth 
          therefore stabilizes at an equilibrium level." 
          
               Note that in Larson's Theory, UNcharged electrons are 
          also massLESS, and are basically photons of light of a 
          particular frequency (above the "unit" frequency) spinning 
          around one axis at a particular rate (below the "unit" rate).  
          ("Unit velocity" is the speed of light, and there are 
          vibrational and rotational equivalents to the speed of light, 
          according to Larson's Theory.)  [I might have the "above" and 
          "below" labels mixed up.] 
    
               Larson is saying that outer space is filled with mass-
          LESS UN-charged electrons flying around at the speed of 
          light! 
    
               If this is true, then the ELECTRO-MAGNETIC PROPULSION 
          fields of spacecraft might be able to interact with these 
          electrons, or other particles in space, perhaps GIVING them a 
          charge (and mass) and shooting them toward the rear to 
          achieve propulsion. (In Larson's Theory, an electrical charge 
          is a one-dimensional rotational vibration of a particular 
          frequency (above the "unit" frequency) superimposed on the 
          rotation of the particle.) 
      
               The paragraph quoted above might also give a clue to 
          confused meteorologists about how and why lightning is 
          generated in clouds. 

          SUPPRESSION of LARSONIAN Physics

               The comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical 
          universe developed by the late Physicist Dewey B. Larson has 
          been available for more than 30 YEARS, published in 1959 in 
          his first book "THE STRUCTURE OF THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE". 
    
               It is TOTALLY UN-SCIENTIFIC for Hawking, Wheeler, Sagan, 
          and the other SACRED PRIESTS of the RELIGION they call 
          "science" (or "physics", or "astronomy", etc.), as well as 
          the "scientific" literature and the "education" systems, to 
          TOTALLY IGNORE Larson's Theory has they have. 
    
               Larson's Theory has excellent explanations for many 
          things now puzzling orthodox physicists and astronomers, such 
          as gamma-ray bursts and the nature of quasars. 
    
               Larson's Theory deserves to be HONESTLY and OPENLY 
          discussed in the physics, chemistry, and astronomy journals, 
          in the U.S. and elsewhere.  And at least the basic principles 
          of Larson's Theory should be included in all related courses 
          at UW-EC, UW-Madison, Cambridge, Cornell University, and 
          elsewhere, so that students are not kept in the dark about a 
          worthy alternative to the DOGMA they are being fed. 
    
          please consult my CITED SOURCES (especially Larson's BOOKS). 

          IMPORTANT partial summary is ENCOURAGED. 

Hi, I'm just getting into PoVRay and I was wondering if there is a graphic
package that outputs .POV files.  Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.

Later'ish
Craig

	You have only shown that a vast majority ( if not all ) would
agree to this. However, there is nothing against a subjective majority.

	In any event, I must challenge your assertion. I know many 
societies- heck, many US citizens- willing to trade freedom for "security".

--- 

Yesterday, I got the chance to hear Kurt Vonnegut speak at the
University of New Hampshire. Vonnegut succeeded Isaac Asimov as the 
(honorary?) head of the American Humanist Association. (Vonnegut is
an atheist, and so was Asimov) Before Asimov's funeral, Vonnegut stood up
and said about Asimov, "He's in heaven now," which ignited uproarious 
laughter in the room. (from the people he was speaking to around the time
of the funeral)

	 "It's the funniest thing I could have possibly said
to a room full of humanists," Vonnegut said at yesterday's lecture. 

         If Vonnegut comes to speak at your university, I highly recommend
going to see him even if you've never read any of his novels. In my opinion,
he's the greatest living humorist. (greatest living humanist humorist as well)

   Peace,

	I am puzzled by the term "concept." Drag free may already have
been flown. It was the idea behind putting up a spacecraft that would
more accurately respond to motions from the Earth's gravity field and
ignore drag. It was proposed many years ago and involved a ball
floating between sensors whose job it was to signal to little
adjustment jets to keep the ball away from them. The ball itself would
then be in a drag free condition and respond only to gravity
anisotropies, whereas the spacecraft itself would be continuously
adjusting its position to compensate for drag.

Since this drivel is also crossposted to alt.atheism, how about reading
the alt.atheism FAQ? The Josephus quote is concidered to be a fake even
by Christian historians, and the four gospels contradict each other in
important points.

Thanks again.  One final question.  The name Gehrels wasn't known to
me before this thread came up, but the May issue of Scientific American
has an article about the "Inconstant Cosmos", with a photo of Neil
Gehrels, project scientist for NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory.
Same person?
-- 
Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto	"Information! ... We want information!"
utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com				-- The Prisoner

definitely a lemur.

Elvis couldn't spell,  just listen to any of his songs.

: medtronic.COM (Dale M. Skiba) entirely missed my point in my previous

: COMMENT:

: Shortly after that post, I realized two things:  I was running a fever of
: over 102, and that I probably should not have gone directly from reading
: alt.slack to posting on this august newsgroup.

: >: >it is not ad hominen to point out that Mr Archer willingly prints blatant
: >: lies
: >: >in defense of Bible inerrancy, and thus is worthless as an expert witness.

: >: Okay, Im game, give us a listing of blatant lies from _Encyclopedia of
: >: Biblical Difficulties_ or other Archer writings.

: >That would be interesting.  If only a very short list can be generated,
: >I think it is more likely that Mr. Archer, with his inerancy mindset is
: >not always impartial and made a doozy of a mistake.  (IMHO I also think
: >that this mindset tends to generate these sorts of mistakes...)

: >On the other hand, if a long list can be generated, it is more likely
: >that Mr. Archer intentionally uses deception in hs books. (Why should
: >he be deceptive just with Tyre?)

: So, Archer is just sitting around, rubbing his hands and plotting how next
: to deceive?  OK, lets _see_ the list...

This was an open question.  I assumed that if Mr. Archer is a chronic
liar, someone whould have documented it.   This assumption is based on
how talk.origins regulars have documented numerous cases of Creationist
deceptions (such as Duane Guish and his friends).

No long list of Archer mistakes has yet been given, so this may be just
an isolated incident...

	I'm looking for graphics (clipart, bmp, gif...) of anything relating to ophthalmology (I know it's a weird request). Anything such as eyeglasses, 
contact lenses, eyes...would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Can anyone tell me where to find a MPEG viewer (either DOS or
Windows).

-- 
Alan M. Jackson      Mail : ajackson@cch.cov.ac.uk

: : 42 is 101010 binary, and who would forget that its the
: : answer to the Question of "Life, the Universe, and Everything else."
: : Of course the Question has not yet been discovered...
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: But it WAS discovered (sort of).  The question was "What is 7 times 8?"

[ Read on and there's a special prize at the bottom.  Amaze your friends
and gain respect from your peers that you can carry on so long about the
number 42. ]

The original question was "What is the meaning of Life, the Universe, and
and Everything."  The answer generated by Deep Thought (the 2nd largest
computer ever created) was 42.  Deep Thought realized that to understand
the answer, one must really know what the question is.  Unfortunately, he
didn't.  But he was able to help build the largest computer (named Earth)
which could figure out the real question.  (I know this is background
knowledge for everyone here... just bear with me a sec... :)

When Arthur pulled the scrabble tiles out of the bag, he spelled out
"What is nine times six?" (or the like).  However, it is not clear that
the monkey-man had the right question in his brain, especially since it
was that lady in the diner (which was vaporized moments later) that came
up with the answer to how everyone could get along.  On the other hand,
Marvin said he saw the answer in Dent's brain, so lets presume it's 
correct.

Well, NINE TIMES SIX ***IS*** FORTY-TWO!!!  ...in base 13.

Chew on that for awhile... :)

--
Chris Russell            Custom software, networks, CASE tools, and consulting
Adaptive Solutions       Sun SPARC, SGI IRIS, HP Apollo, Macintosh, & PC

  Hello, I know that this has been discussed before.  But at the time
I didn't need to teselate a sphere.  So if any kind soul has the code
or the alg, that was finally decided upon as the best (as I recall it
was a nice, iterative subdivision meathod), I would be very 
appreciative.
							Thomas DeWeese
deweeset@rdrc.rpi.edu

I have heard some impressive things about Hijakk (for Windows).
Currently, I use a shareware program called Graphics Workshop.
What kinds of things will Hijaak do that these shareware programs
will not do?

What has been your experience with Hijaak? Are there other programs
that are better? Please email me, if you can help:

Wayne Haston

I will instruct thee and teach thee
	in the way which thou shalt go:
	I will guide thee with mine eye.

Are you volunteering? :)

Will NASA have "available landing sites" in the Russian Republic, now that they
are Our Friends and Comrades?

 I apologize for posting this. I thought it was only going to talk.origins.
I also took my definitions from a 1938 Websters.
 Nonetheless, the apparent past arguments over these words imply that like
'bimonthly' and 'biweekly' they have no commonly accepted definitions and
should be used with care.

I'd like this too... maybe you should post an answer key after a while?

Nanci

I was replying to a person who attempted to justify the fatwa
against Rushdie on the grounds that his work was intentionally
insulting. 

I think that to take a single sentence from a fairly long
posting, and to say 

	"I don't know if you are doing so, but it 
	seems you are implying....."

is at the very best quite disingenuous, and perhaps even
dishonest.    If anyone care to dig back and read the full
posting, they will see nothing of the kind.

I trust you don't deny that Islamic teaching has "something
to do" with the fatwa against Rushdie?

	I disagree: every proposition needs a certain amount of evidence 
and support, before one can believe it. There are a miriad of factors for 
each individual. As we are all different, we quite obviously require 
different levels of evidence.

	As one pointed out, one's history is important. While in FUSSR, one 
may not believe a comrade who states that he owns five pairs of blue jeans. 
One would need more evidence, than if one lived in the United States. The 
only time such a statement here would raise an eyebrow in the US, is if the 
individual always wear business suits, etc.

	The degree of the effect upon the world, and the strength of the 
claim also determine the amount of evidence necessary. When determining the 
level of evidence one needs, it is most certainly relevent what the 
consequences of the proposition are.

	If the consequences of a proposition is irrelvent, please explain 
why one would not accept: The electro-magnetic force of attraction between 
two charged particles is inversely proportional to the cube of their 
distance apart. 

	Remember, if the consequences of the law are not relevent, then
we can not use experimental evidence as a disproof. If one of the 
consequences of the law is an incongruency between the law and the state of 
affairs, or an incongruency between this law and any other natural law, 
they are irrelevent when theorizing about the "Truth" of the law.

	Given that any consequences of a proposition is irrelvent, including 
the consequence of self-contradiction or contradiction with the state of 
affiars, how are we ever able to  judge what is true or not; let alone find
"The Truth"?

	By the way, what is "Truth"? Please define before inserting it in 
the conversation. Please explain what "Truth" or "TRUTH" is. I do think that 
anything is ever known for certain. Even if there IS a "Truth", we could 
never possibly know if it were. I find the concept to be meaningless.

--

The Command Loss Timer is a timer that does just what its name says;
it indicates to the probe that it has lost its data link for receiving
commands.  Upon expiration of the Command Loss Timer, I believe the
probe starts a 'search for Earth' sequence (involving antenna pointing
and attitude changes which consume fuel) to try to reestablish
communications.  No-ops are sent periodically through those periods
when there are no real commands to be sent, just so the probe knows
that we haven't forgotten about it.

Hope that's clear enough to be comprehensible. 

-- 

From article <1993Apr21.013846.1374@cx5.com>, by tlc@cx5.com:

According to my ColoRIX manual .SCF files are 640x480x256

You may try VPIC, I think it handles the 256 color RIX files OK..

First of all, I'm not your buddy!  Second, read what I wrote.  I'm not
talking about what muslims are ALLOWED to do, merely what *SOME*
practice.  They consider themselves as muslim as you, so don't retort
with the old and tired "they MUST NOT BE TRUE MUSLIMS" bullshit.  If I
gave you the names what will you do with this information?  Is a fatwa
going to be leashed out against the perpetrators?  Do you honestly think
that someone who did it would voluntarily come forward and confess? 
With the kind of extremism shown by your co-religionaries?  Fat chance.

At any rate, there can be no conclusive "proof" by the very nature of
the act.  Perhaps people that indulge in this practice agree with you in
theory, but hope that Allah will forgive them in the end.

I think it's rather arrogant of you to pretend to speak for all muslims
in this regard.  Also, kind of silly.  Are you insinuating that because
the Koranic law forbids it, there are no criminals in muslim countries? 

This is as far as I care to go on this subject.  The weakness of your
arguments are for all netters to see.  Over and out...
-- 

Finding the circumcenter of a tetrahedron is discussed on page 33 in

CONTOURING: A guide to the analysis and display of spatial data,
by Dave Watson, Pergamon Press,  1992, ISBN 0 08 040286 0, 321p.

Each pair of tetrahedral vertices define a plane which is a 
perpendicular bisector of the line between that pair.  Express each
plane in the form Ax + By + Cz = D
and solve the set of simultaneous equations from any three of those
planes that have a vertex in common (all vertices are used).  
The solution is the circumcenter.

Archive-name: space/math
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:12 $

PERFORMING CALCULATIONS AND INTERPRETING DATA FORMATS

    COMPUTING SPACECRAFT ORBITS AND TRAJECTORIES

    References that have been frequently recommended on the net are:

    "Fundamentals of Astrodynamics" Roger Bate, Donald Mueller, Jerry White
    1971, Dover Press, 455pp $8.95 (US) (paperback). ISBN 0-486-60061-0

    NASA Spaceflight handbooks (dating from the 1960s)
	SP-33 Orbital Flight Handbook (3 parts)
	SP-34 Lunar Flight Handbook   (3 parts)
	SP-35 Planetary Flight Handbook (9 parts)

	These might be found in university aeronautics libraries or ordered
	through the US Govt. Printing Office (GPO), although more
	information would probably be needed to order them.

    M. A. Minovitch, _The Determination and Characteristics of Ballistic
    Interplanetary Trajectories Under the Influence of Multiple Planetary
    Attractions_, Technical Report 32-464, Jet Propulsion Laboratory,
    Pasadena, Calif., Oct, 1963.

	The title says all. Starts of with the basics and works its way up.
	Very good. It has a companion article:

    M. Minovitch, _Utilizing Large Planetary Perubations for the Design of
    Deep-Space Solar-Probe and Out of Ecliptic Trajectories_, Technical
    Report 32-849, JPL, Pasadena, Calif., 1965.

	You need to read the first one first to realy understand this one.
	It does include a _short_ summary if you can only find the second.

	Contact JPL for availability of these reports.

    "Spacecraft Attitude Dynamics", Peter C. Hughes 1986, John Wiley and
	Sons.

    "Celestial Mechanics: a computational guide for the practitioner",
    Lawrence G. Taff, (Wiley-Interscience, New York, 1985).

	Starts with the basics (2-body problem, coordinates) and works up to
	orbit determinations, perturbations, and differential corrections.
	Taff also briefly discusses stellar dynamics including a short
	discussion of n-body problems.

    COMPUTING PLANETARY POSITIONS

    More net references:

    Van Flandern & Pullinen, _Low-Precision Formulae for Planetary
    Positions_, Astrophysical J. Supp Series, 41:391-411, 1979. Look in an
    astronomy or physics library for this; also said to be available from
    Willmann-Bell.

	Gives series to compute positions accurate to 1 arc minute for a
	period + or - 300 years from now. Pluto is included but stated to
	have an accuracy of only about 15 arc minutes.

    _Multiyear Interactive Computer Almanac_ (MICA), produced by the US
    Naval Observatory. Valid for years 1990-1999. $55 ($80 outside US).
    Available for IBM (order #PB93-500163HDV) or Macintosh (order
    #PB93-500155HDV). From the NTIS sales desk, (703)-487-4650. I believe
    this is intended to replace the USNO's Interactive Computer Ephemeris.

    _Interactive Computer Ephemeris_ (from the US Naval Observatory)
    distributed on IBM-PC floppy disks, $35 (Willmann-Bell). Covers dates
    1800-2049.

    "Planetary Programs and Tables from -4000 to +2800", Bretagnon & Simon
    1986, Willmann-Bell.

	Floppy disks available separately.

    "Fundamentals of Celestial Mechanics" (2nd ed), J.M.A. Danby 1988,

	A good fundamental text. Includes BASIC programs; a companion set of
	floppy disks is available separately.

    "Astronomical Formulae for Calculators" (4th ed.), J. Meeus 1988,

    "Astronomical Algorithms", J. Meeus 1991, Willmann-Bell.

	If you actively use one of the editions of "Astronomical Formulae
	for Calculators", you will want to replace it with "Astronomical
	Algorithms". This new book is more oriented towards computers than
	calculators and contains formulae for planetary motion based on
	modern work by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, the U.S. Naval
	Observatory, and the Bureau des Longitudes. The previous books were
	all based on formulae mostly developed in the last century.

	Algorithms available separately on diskette.

    "Practical Astronomy with your Calculator" (3rd ed.), P. Duffett-Smith
    1988, Cambridge University Press.

    "Orbits for Amateurs with a Microcomputer", D. Tattersfield 1984,
    Stanley Thornes, Ltd.

	Includes example programs in BASIC.

    "Orbits for Amateurs II", D. Tattersfield 1987, John Wiley & Sons.

    "Astronomy / Scientific Software" - catalog of shareware, public domain,
    and commercial software for IBM and other PCs. Astronomy software
    includes planetarium simulations, ephemeris generators, astronomical
    databases, solar system simulations, satellite tracking programs,
    celestial mechanics simulators, and more.

	Andromeda Software, Inc.
	P.O. Box 605
	Amherst, NY 14226-0605

    COMPUTING CRATER DIAMETERS FROM EARTH-IMPACTING ASTEROIDS

    Astrogeologist Gene Shoemaker proposes the following formula, based on
    studies of cratering caused by nuclear tests.

		     (1/3.4)
    D = S  S  c  K  W	    : crater diameter in km
	 g  p  f  n

	       (1/6)
    S = (g /g )		    : gravity correction factor for bodies other than
     g	  e  t		      Earth, where g = 9.8 m/s^2 and g	is the surface
					    e		      t
			      gravity of the target body. This scaling is
			      cited for lunar craters and may hold true for
			      other bodies.

		(1/3.4)
    S = (p / p )	    : correction factor for target density p  ,
     p	  a   t							    t
			      p  = 1.8 g/cm^3 for alluvium at the Jangle U
			       a
			      crater site, p = 2.6 g/cm^3 for average
			      rock on the continental shields.

    C			    : crater collapse factor, 1 for craters <= 3 km
			      in diameter, 1.3 for larger craters (on Earth).

							    (1/3.4)
    K			    : .074 km / (kT TNT equivalent)
     n			      empirically determined from the Jangle U
			      nuclear test crater.

	      3		   2		       19
    W = pi * d	* delta * V  / (12 * 4.185 * 10  )
			    : projectile kinetic energy in kT TNT equivalent
			      given diameter d, velocity v, and projectile
			      density delta in CGS units. delta of around 3
			      g/cm^3 is fairly good for an asteroid.

    An RMS velocity of V = 20 km/sec may be used for Earth-crossing
    asteroids.

    Under these assumptions, the body which created the Barringer Meteor
    Crater in Arizona (1.13 km diameter) would have been about 40 meters in
    diameter.

    More generally, one can use (after Gehrels, 1985):

    Asteroid	    Number of objects  Impact probability  Impact energy
    diameter (km)		       (impacts/year)	   (* 5*10^20 ergs)

     10			    10		     10^-8		10^9
      1			 1 000		     10^-6		10^6
      0.1	       100 000		     10^-4		10^3

    assuming simple scaling laws. Note that 5*10^20 ergs = 13 000 tons TNT
    equivalent, or the energy released by the Hiroshima A-bomb.

    Gehrels, T. 1985 Asteroids and comets. _Physics Today_ 38, 32-41. [an
	excellent general overview of the subject for the layman]

    Shoemaker, E.M. 1983 Asteroid and comet bombardment of the earth. _Ann.
	Rev. Earth Planet. Sci._ 11, 461-494. [very long and fairly
	technical but a comprehensive examination of the
	 subject]

    Shoemaker, E.M., J.G. Williams, E.F. Helin & R.F. Wolfe 1979
	Earth-crossing asteroids: Orbital classes, collision rates with
	Earth, and origin. In _Asteroids_, T. Gehrels, ed., pp. 253-282,
	University of Arizona Press, Tucson.

    Cunningham, C.J. 1988 _Introduction to Asteroids: The Next Frontier_
	(Richmond: Willman-Bell, Inc.) [covers all aspects of asteroid
	studies and is an excellent introduction to the subject for people
	of all experience levels. It also has a very extensive reference
	list covering essentially all of the reference material in the
	field.]

    MAP PROJECTIONS AND SPHERICAL TRIGNOMETRY

    Two easy-to-find sources of map projections are the "Encyclopaedia
    Brittanica", (particularly the older volumes) and a tutorial appearing
    in _Graphics Gems_ (Academic Press, 1990). The latter was written with
    simplicity of exposition and suitability of digital computation in mind
    (spherical trig formulae also appear, as do digitally-plotted examples).

    More than you ever cared to know about map projections is in John
    Snyder's USGS publication "Map Projections--A Working Manual", USGS
    Professional Paper 1395. This contains detailed descriptions of 32
    projections, with history, features, projection formulas (for both
    spherical earth and ellipsoidal earth), and numerical test cases. It's a
    neat book, all 382 pages worth. This one's $20.

    You might also want the companion volume, by Snyder and Philip Voxland,
    "An Album of Map Projections", USGS Professional Paper 1453. This
    contains less detail on about 130 projections and variants. Formulas are
    in the back, example plots in the front. $14, 250 pages.

    You can order these 2 ways. The cheap, slow way is direct from USGS:
    Earth Science Information Center, US Geological Survey, 507 National
    Center, Reston, VA 22092. (800)-USA-MAPS. They can quote you a price and
    tell you where to send your money. Expect a 6-8 week turnaround time.

    A much faster way (about 1 week) is through Timely Discount Topos,
    (303)-469-5022, 9769 W. 119th Drive, Suite 9, Broomfield, CO 80021. Call
    them and tell them what you want. They'll quote a price, you send a
    check, and then they go to USGS Customer Service Counter and pick it up
    for you. Add about a $3-4 service charge, plus shipping.

    A (perhaps more accessible) mapping article is:

	R. Miller and F. Reddy, "Mapping the World in Pascal",
	Byte V12 #14, December 1987

	Contains Turbo Pascal procedures for five common map projections. A
	demo program, CARTOG.PAS, and a small (6,000 point) coastline data
	is available on CompuServe, GEnie, and many BBSs.

    Some references for spherical trignometry are:

	_Spherical Astronomy_, W.M. Smart, Cambridge U. Press, 1931.

	_A Compendium of Spherical Astronomy_, S. Newcomb, Dover, 1960.

	_Spherical Astronomy_, R.M. Green, Cambridge U. Press., 1985 (update
	of Smart).

	_Spherical Astronomy_, E Woolard and G.Clemence, Academic
	Press, 1966.

    PERFORMING N-BODY SIMULATIONS EFFICIENTLY

	"Computer Simulation Using Particles"
	R. W. Hockney and J. W. Eastwood
	(Adam Hilger; Bristol and Philadelphia; 1988)

	"The rapid evaluation of potential fields in particle systems",
	L. Greengard
	MIT Press, 1988.

	    A breakthrough O(N) simulation method. Has been parallelized.

	L. Greengard and V. Rokhlin, "A fast algorithm for particle
	simulations," Journal of Computational Physics, 73:325-348, 1987.

	"An O(N) Algorithm for Three-dimensional N-body Simulations", MSEE
	thesis, Feng Zhao, MIT AILab Technical Report 995, 1987

	"Galactic Dynamics"
	J. Binney & S. Tremaine
	(Princeton U. Press; Princeton; 1987)

	    Includes an O(N^2) FORTRAN code written by Aarseth, a pioneer in
	    the field.

	Hierarchical (N log N) tree methods are described in these papers:

	A. W. Appel, "An Efficient Program for Many-body Simulation", SIAM
	Journal of Scientific and Statistical Computing, Vol. 6, p. 85,
	1985.

	Barnes & Hut, "A Hierarchical O(N log N) Force-Calculation
	Algorithm", Nature, V324 # 6096, 4-10 Dec 1986.

	L. Hernquist, "Hierarchical N-body Methods", Computer Physics
	Communications, Vol. 48, p. 107, 1988.

    INTERPRETING THE FITS IMAGE FORMAT

    If you just need to examine FITS images, use the ppm package (see the
    comp.graphics FAQ) to convert them to your preferred format. For more
    information on the format and other software to read and write it, see
    the sci.astro.fits FAQ.

    SKY (UNIX EPHEMERIS PROGRAM)

    The 6th Edition of the Unix operating system came with several software
    systems not distributed because of older media capacity limitations.
    Included were an ephmeris, a satellite track, and speech synthesis
    software. The ephmeris, sky(6), is available within AT&T and to sites
    possessing a Unix source code license. The program is regarded as Unix
    source code. Sky is <0.5MB. Send proof of source code license to

	E. Miya
	MS 258-5
	NASA Ames Research Center
	Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000
	eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov

    THREE-DIMENSIONAL STAR/GALAXY COORDINATES

    To generate 3D coordinates of astronomical objects, first obtain an
    astronomical database which specifies right ascension, declination, and
    parallax for the objects. Convert parallax into distance using the
    formula in part 6 of the FAQ, convert RA and declination to coordinates
    on a unit sphere (see some of the references on planetary positions and
    spherical trignometry earlier in this section for details on this), and
    scale this by the distance.

    Two databases useful for this purpose are the Yale Bright Star catalog
    (sources listed in FAQ section 3) or "The Catalogue of Stars within 25
    parsecs of the Sun" (in pub/SPACE/FAQ/stars.data and stars.doc on
    ames.arc.nasa.gov).

I should probably re-post this with another title, so that
the guys on the other thread would see that this is a practical
use of "temporary orbits..."

Another possible temporary orbit:

Hi everybody,

Can anyone name an anonymous ftp-site where I can find the sources
of the PBM-PLUS package (portable bit/gray/pixel map).
I would like to compile and run it on a Sun Sparcstation.

**********************************************************************

		      2ND CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS
	
      NAVY SCIENTIFIC VISUALIZATION AND VIRTUAL REALITY SEMINAR

			Tuesday, June 22, 1993

	    Carderock Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center
	      (formerly the David Taylor Research Center)

			  Bethesda, Maryland

SPONSOR: NESS (Navy Engineering Software System) is sponsoring a 
one-day Navy Scientific Visualization and Virtual Reality Seminar.  
The purpose of the seminar is to present and exchange information for
Navy-related scientific visualization and virtual reality programs, 
research, developments, and applications.

PRESENTATIONS: Presentations are solicited on all aspects of 
Navy-related scientific visualization and virtual reality.  All 
current work, works-in-progress, and proposed work by Navy 
organizations will be considered.  Four types of presentations are 
available.

     1. Regular presentation: 20-30 minutes in length
     2. Short presentation: 10 minutes in length
     3. Video presentation: a stand-alone videotape (author need not 
	attend the seminar)
     4. Scientific visualization or virtual reality demonstration (BYOH)

Accepted presentations will not be published in any proceedings, 
however, viewgraphs and other materials will be reproduced for 
seminar attendees.

ABSTRACTS: Authors should submit a one page abstract and/or videotape to:

     Robert Lipman
     Naval Surface Warfare Center, Carderock Division
     Code 2042
     Bethesda, Maryland  20084-5000

     VOICE (301) 227-3618;  FAX (301) 227-5753  
     E-MAIL  lipman@oasys.dt.navy.mil

Authors should include the type of presentation, their affiliations, 
addresses, telephone and FAX numbers, and addresses.  Multi-author 
papers should designate one point of contact.

DEADLINES: The abstact submission deadline is April 30, 1993.  
Notification of acceptance will be sent by May 14, 1993.  
Materials for reproduction must be received by June 1, 1993.

For further information, contact Robert Lipman at the above address.

	  PLEASE DISTRIBUTE AS WIDELY AS POSSIBLE, THANKS.

Robert Lipman                     | Internet: lipman@oasys.dt.navy.mil
David Taylor Model Basin - CDNSWC |       or: lip@ocean.dt.navy.mil
Computational Signatures and      | Voicenet: (301) 227-3618
   Structures Group, Code 2042    | Factsnet: (301) 227-5753
Bethesda, Maryland  20084-5000    | Phishnet: stockings@long.legs

   I'm on a fact-finding mission, trying to find out if there exists a list of
   potentially world-bearing stars within 100 light years of the Sun...
   Is anyone currently working on this sort of thing?  Thanks...

   Dan
   -- 

In principle, any star resembling the Sun (mass, luminosity) might have planets
located in a suitable orbit. There several within 100 ly of the sun. They are
single stars, for double or multiple systems might be troublesome. There's a
list located at ames.arc.nasa.gov somewhere in pub/SPACE. I think it is called
stars.dat. By the way, what kind of project, if I may know?

Rui
-- 
*** Infinity is at hand!                               Rui Sousa
*** If yours is big enough, grab it!                   ruca@saber-si.pt

This is a classic example of excessive faith in reason.  The fact that we
have trouble talking about something doesn't imply that it is impossible; it
simply implies that it is hard to talk about.  There is a very good chance
that God *can* flibble glop ork groink.  Charlie Wingate can flibble glop
ork groink, and he isn't even God.

What are the consequences of the homophobic ranting of the
self-righteous?  Well, I just noted this on another group,
and thought I'd pass it along.  The context is talk.origins,
and a report of yet another "debate" that was nothing but an
attempt at mindless bullying and factless assertion by a
standard-issue Creationist.  The writer reflects that the
behavior reported reminds him of some Christian groups he has
known.  I believe that the writer is a (non-homosexual) Christian:

+	There is a very effective technique used to promote
+	unit cohesion among the Soldiers of the Lord.  It is
+	called "witnessing"...  I've seen this process used well
+	and poorly; the near devil worship I mention was a group 
+	... that was using the witnessing to get people lathered
+	up to go kill homosexuals or at least terrorize them off 
+	campus as it was clearly God's will that they do so.

I have deleted the specifics of the location, as I do not
believe it characteristic of the place (a state in which I
spent my formative first 10 years), though it *does* have,
unfortunately, a subpopulation that this remark fits to a tee.

Suppose the Soviets had managed to get their moon rocket working
and had made it first.  They could have beaten us if either:

* Their rocket hadn't blown up on the pad thus setting them back,

and/or

* A Saturn V went boom.

If they had beaten us, I speculate that the US would have gone
head and done some landings, but we also would have been more
determined to set up a base (both in Earth Orbit and on the
Moon).  Whether or not we would be on Mars by now would depend
upon whether the Soviets tried to go.  Setting up a lunar base
would have stretched the budgets of both nations and I think
that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value
of going to Mars (at least in the short run).  Thus we would
have concentrated on the moon.

I live in Colorado, and have never heard of such a group.  Obviously claims 
that their posters are appearing "all over Colorado" are a tad overdone... 

Hardly.  Saying that homosexuality is a sin is a far cry from 
"Working for a fag-free America".  Saying that I wouldn't want 
a homosexual babysitting for my kids doesnt mean I endorse 
"Against Immoral Gross Homosexual Trash".  

And now we have homosexual advocates telling us that if we don't teach 
our kids that homosexuality is natural and a perfectly acceptable 
alternative lifestyle, then they will have it done for us.  No, thanks. 

Absolutely.  And the message is always, "go and sin no more".  Not, 
Go and do whatever "feels good". 

This sounds real nice, but struck me as a little odd.  You're 
presenting yourself as if you were a straight Xian, who is sticking
his neck out and taking on the challenge of speaking out in support 
of gays in the church.  But I was under the impression that you
yourself are gay.  That's all well and fine, but presenting yourself 
as sticking out your neck to help "repressed others" seems a bit 
untruthful under the circumstances.... 

sm[?]>a real Christian unless you're born again is a very fundamental biblical
sm[?]>conversion and regeneration are 'probably' part of some small USA-based cult

Some of these "cults", which seems like a rather dismissive term
to me, are pretty big here in the USA.  Most of them
are quite respectable & neiborly & do not resemble Branch Davidians
in the least; confusing them is a mistake.  What about "live &
let live", folks?  I'm sure we can uncover a few extremist loonies
who are Catholic -- the anti-abortion movement in the USA seems to have a
few hard cases in it, for example.

I have to agree Matthew with this; I have certainly encountered a lot
of anti-Catholic-religion propaganda & emotion (& some bigotry) from
members of certain religious groups here.  They also practice their
missionary work with zeal among Catholics in the United States, but to
someone who is or was raised Catholic such rhetoric is pretty
off-putting.  It may work better in an environment where there's a lot
of popular anti-clericalism.

Follow-ups set elsewhere, this no longer seems very relevant to Celtic issues
to me.

  CH> Concerning the proposed newsgroup split, I personally am not in
  CH> favor of doing this.  I learn an awful lot about all aspects of
  CH> graphics by reading this group, from code to hardware to
  CH> algorithms.  I just think making 5 different groups out of this
  CH> is a wate, and will only result in a few posts a week per group.
  CH> I kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for
  CH> discussing all aspects of graphics.  Anyone else feel this way?
  CH> Just curious.

I must agree.  There is a dizzying number of c.s.amiga.* newsgroups
already.  In addition, there are very few issues which fall cleanly
into one of these categories.

Also, it is readily observable that the current spectrum of amiga
groups is already plagued with mega-crossposting; thus the group-split
would not, in all likelihood, bring about a more structured
environment.

: >> The death penalty was conceived as a deterrent to crime,  but the legal
: >> shenanigans that have been added (automatic appeals, lengthy court
: >> battles, etc.) have relegated that purpose to a very small part of what
: >> it should be.  Hence the question is,  do we instate the death penalty as
: >> it was meant to be, and see if that deters crime, or do we get rid of
: >> it entirely?

  I doubt the death penalty was supposed to be a "deterrent" to crime. If so,
why doesn't every crime carry a death penalty ? That would be effictive
wouldn't it ???

  The death penalty is a punishment, much like a $50 fine for speeding is
a punishment. Anyway, somebody with murder on the mind doesn't much care
about the consequences. I think another problem is that people dont think
they will get caught. If I wanted to kill another person, I wouldn't 
care what the penalty was if I didn't think I would get caught.

  If it was to be strictly a deterrent, it should have been more along 
the lines of torture.

It's my understanding that the freezing will start to occur because of the
growing distance of Pluto and Charon from the Sun, due to it's
elliptical orbit. It is not due to shadowing effects. 

Pluto can shadow Charon, and vice-versa.

George Krumins
-- 

You don't think these are little things because with twenty-twenty
hindsight, you know what they led to.

I have a problem with intersections between two surfaces.
Does anybody have a easy to understand algorithm for that or maybe
even C source??

I see, it is not rational, but it is intellectual. Does madness qualify
as intellectual engagement, too?
 
Exactly why science uses mathematics. QM representation in natural language
is not supposed to replace the elaborate representation in mathematical
terminology. Nor is it supposed to be the truth, as opposed to the
representation of gods or religions in ordinary language. Admittedly,
not  every religion says so, but a fancy side effect of their inept
representations are the eternal hassles between religions.
 
And QM allows for making experiments that will lead to results that will
be agreed upon as being similar. Show me something similar in religion.
 
With the effect that the models presented are useless. And one can argue
that the other way around, namely that the only reason metaphysics still
flourish is because it makes no statements that can be verified or falsified -
showing that it is bogus.
 
Now, I had put a Wink at the end of my suggestion indicating it was
intensely sarcastic.  I can't help it if everyone got all serious.

Ross.

	I never saw your original posting.  it dropped on the floor
somewhere.  I just saw the trickle down, thought it was intensely
stupid,  not knowing anything about the joke, mentioned arbitron
and left it with an equally stupid joke.  Bill in his ever increasing
devotion to thoroughness dug up  several  arbitron stats.

I myself think the arbitron stats are  severely methodologically impaired,
but are a good measure of proportion.  I don't think anyone
knows how many people read news anymore.

I _know_ I shouldn't get involved, but...   :-)

[bit deleted]

Righto, DAN, try this one with your Cornflakes...

The book says that Muhammad was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a 
modern day Mad Mahdi) or he was actually who he said he was.
Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows.  Who would 
die for a lie?  Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar?  People 
gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing 
how his son-in-law made the sun stand still.  Call me a fool, but I believe 
he did make the sun stand still.  
Niether was he a lunatic.  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
to someone who was crazy.  Very doubtful, in fact rediculous.  For example 
anyone who is drawn to the Mad Mahdi is obviously a fool, logical people see 
this right away.
Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the 
real thing.  

--

I hope you're not going to flame him.  Please give him the same coutesy you'
ve given me.

Two developments have brought these type of activities back to
the forefront in 1993.  First, in February, the Russians deployed a
20-m reflector from a Progress vehicle after it had departed from
the Mir Space Station.  While this "Banner" reflector was blank,
NPO Energia was very active in reporting that future  Banner
reflectors will be available to advertisers, who could use a space-
based video of their logo or ad printed on the Banner in a TV
commercial, as filmed from the Mir.
   The second development, has been that Space Marketing Inc, the
same company responsible for merchandising space on the Conestoga
booster and COMET spacecraft, is now pushing the "Environmental
Billboard".  As laid out by SMI Chief Engineer Dr Ron Humble of the
University of Colorado Space Laboratory and Preston Carter of the
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, the "Environmental
Billboard" is a large inflatable outer support structure of up to
804x1609 meters.  Advertising is carried by a mylar reflective area,
deployed by the inflatable 'frame'.
   To help sell the concept, the spacecraft responsible for
maintaining the billboard on orbit will carry "ozone reading
sensors" to "continuously monitor the condition of the Earth's
delicate protective ozone layer," according to Mike Lawson, head of
SMI. Furthermore, the inflatable billboard has reached its minimum
exposure of 30 days it will be released to re-enter the Earth's
atmosphere. According to IMI, "as the biodegradable material burns,
it will release ozone-building components that will literally
replenish the ozone layer." The remaining spacecraft will monitor
the atmosphere for another year before it, too, re-enters and burns
up and "adds to the ozone supply."
   This would not be a cheap advertisement, costing at least several
millions of dollars (exact costs were not available).  But SMI
estimates that market exposure would be 3-5X that of the people who
watched the SuperBowl, where a 30-second advertising 'unit' cost
$600,000.  Since SMI is located in Atlanta, Georgia, it is being
promoted as being available in time for the opening of the 1996
Summer Olympics in Atlanta.
  
But back to Brian's questions:
  
    See above. As for serious -- if they can get $15-20 M or so (my
estimate of $5-10 for development costs and a flight unit, plus
$10-15 M for a launch), then it's probably real.  They are claiming to
tailor the orbit to overfly specific locations at specific times for
optimum advertising impact so they probably can't piggy back upon
someone else's planned launch and will have to buy a dedicated
launch.  That's a $10-15 M cost they need to raise, right there.
    And there will probably be some legal challenges to this as
well.  Note there is one potential legal challenge to SMI on the use
of launch vehicle advertising already.  While I don't think the
legal challenges would win out (and yes, I am an amateur astronomer,
and no, I don't really like the idea of this additional light
pollution, but I know of no prohibition of it...),  the legal
challenges and court fights would probably remove any positive
aspects of the advertising.  I can imagine several ways to make the
advertisers look like louts for doing this -- which would change
positive market exposure to negative market exposure, and negate the
space advertising advantage.  (Would you spend $15 M to look like an
idiot?)
   (And light pollution might not be too bad -- if it's in a low
enough orbit, and it relies upon reflected light only, it would
only be visible for a short time just after local dusk and before
dawn.  For maximum market exposure, you want to have it visible just
after dusk --minimizing impact on astronomy, since that's the time
of worse seeing due to day/night thermal turbulence.  It might still
be a problem, but perhaps there are ways to mitigate this...)
    As for having real funding -- none that I can identify.  There
were about 60 expressions of interest made on the Conestoga
advertising opportunity, but that included curious folks and was for
only a $500,000 commitment.  I haven't heard of any serious funding
for this, but I'm sure they are shopping the venture around looking
for some money in order to flesh out the concept some more.  But I
am confident there are no firm or paying customers at this time.
  
   And if anybody wants to cross-post this to sci.astro, please be
my guest.  I don't have posting privileges to that area (or at least
I don't THINK I do...).
 -------------------------------------------------------------------
 Wales Larrison                            Space Technology Investor

  Lev 17:11: For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given
  it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is
  the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

The Old Testament was very big on the "eye for an eye" business.  It
makes sense that Leviticus would support physical injury to "repay"
moral wrongdoing.

I know about sanctification.  I've been taught all about it in Sunday
school, catechism class, and theology classes.  But even after all
that, I still can't accept it.  Maybe I'm still not understanding it,
or maybe I'm just understanding it all too well.

From the bottom of my heart I know that the punishment of an innocent
man is wrong.  I've tried repeatedly over the course of several years
to accept it, but I just can't.  If this means that I can't accept the
premise that a god who would allow this is 'perfectly good', then so
be it.

If you can explain to me why the death of Jesus was a *good* thing,
then I would be very glad to hear it, and you might even convert me.
Be warned, however, that I've heard all the most common arguments
before, and they just don't convince me.

Sorry about not mentioning platform... my original post was to mac.programmer,
and then decided to post here to comp.graphics.

I'd like the 3D software to run on primarily Mac in either C, Object Pascal
(Think or MPW). But, I'll port to Windows later, so a package that runs on
Mac and has a Windows version would be ideal.

I'm looking for a package that has low upfront costs, and reasonable licensing
costs... of course :)

I agree with you about the upgrade path; but I think I was fair.

The original posting complained (1) about SGI coming out with newer (and
better) architectures and not having an upgrade path from the older ones,
and (2) that DEC did.

On statement (1), I merely attempted to point out that all computer
companies are constantly attempting to improve their product (& market
position/share).  In so doing, they eventually come to a point where they
have a new architecture, and the only upgrade path is to replace the
system.  And the particular system he was complaining about was (in
computer lifetimes) relatively old.

On statement (2), I felt DEC's history of providing upgrades was not far
superior than the industry "average", and that, in my opinion, SGI's
history is better than DEC's.

(And what is DEC doing with it's MIPS based DECstation line?  Are they
going to "abandon" it for their Alpha based line, or provide an upgrade
path to R4400's and TFP's and R5's?)

If Comet Shoemaker-Levy 1993e is in Jovian orbit, and if the comet
is still hanging around when Galileo arrives, then I'm sure it will
be added to the list of targets.  We'll have by then over two years
of Earth-based observations to help narrow down the positions of the
pieces of the comet. It probably won't be too much different than
what was done with Gaspra.

Galileo did not image Toutatis.  That came from Earth-based radar.

Okay, lets get the record straight on the Livermore gas gun.  
The project manager is Dr. John Hunter, and he works for the
Laser group at Livermore.  What, you may ask, does gas guns
have to do with lasers? Nothing, really, but the gun is physically
located across the road from the Free Electron Laser building,
and the FEL building has a heavily shielded control room (thick walls)
from which the gun firings are controlled.  So I suspect that the
office he works for is an administrative convenience.

I visited Hunter at the beginning of Feb. and we toured the gun.
At the time I was working on gas gun R&D at Boeing, where I work,
but I am now doing other things (helping to save the space station),

The gun uses a methane-air mixture, which is burned in a chamber
about 200 ft long by 16 inch ID (i.e. it looks like a pipe).
The chamber holds a 1 ton piston which is propelled at several
hundred m/s down the chamber.  On the other side of the piston
is hudrogen gas, initially at room temperature andsome tens
of atmospheres.

The piston compresses and heats the hydrogen ahead of it until
a stainless steel burst diaphragm ruptures, at around 50,000 psi.
The barrel of the gun is about 100 feet long and has a 4 inch
bore.  It is mounted at right angles to the chamber (i.e. they
intersect).  This was done so that in the future, the barrel
could be raised and the gun fired into the air without having to
move the larger and heavier chamber.  The projectile being used
in testing is a 5 kg cylinder of Lexan plastic, 4 in in diameter
and about 50 cm long.

All of the acceleration comes from the expansion of the hydrogen
gas from 50,000 psi downwards until the projectile leaves the
barrel.  The barrel is evacuated, and the end is sealed with a
sheet of plastic film (a little thicker than Saran wrap).  The
plastic is blown off by the small amount of residual air trapped
in the barrel ahead of the projectile.  

The gun is fired into a bunker filled with sandbags and plastic
water jugs.  In the early testing fragments of the plastic
projectile were found.  At the higher speeds in later testing,
the projectile vaporizes.

The testing is into a bunker because the Livermore test range is
about 3 miles across, and the projectile would go 100-200 km
if fired for maximum range.  The intent is to move the whole gun
to Vandenberg AFB after the testing is complete, where they can
fire into the Pacific Ocean, and use the tracking radar at VAFB
to follow the projectiles.

The design goal of the gun is to throw a 5 kg projectile at 4
km/s (half of orbital speed).  So far they have reached 2 km/s,
and the gun is currently down for repairs, as on the last test
they blew a seal and damaged some of the hardware (I think it
had to do with the methane-air more detonating than burning, but
I haven't had a chance to talk to Hunter directly on this).

There are people waiting to test scramjet components in this
gun by firing then out of the gun into the air (at Mach 12=
4 km/s), since the most you can get in wind tunnels is Mach 8.

This gun cost about 4 million to develop, and is basically
a proof-of-concept for a bigger gun capable of firing useful-
sized payloads into space.  This would require on the order of
100 kg projectiles, which deliver on the order of 20 kg
useful payload to orbit.

Dani Eder

Early to mid June.

If they think the public wants to see it they will carry it. Why not
write them and ask? You can reach them at:

                          F: NATIONAL NEWS MEDIA

ABC "World News Tonight"                 "Face the Nation"
7 West 66th Street                       CBS News
New York, NY 10023                       2020 M Street, NW
212/887-4040                             Washington, DC 20036
                                         202/457-4321

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50 Rockefeller Plaza                     ABC News
New York, NY 10020                       1965 Broadway
National Desk (212/621-1600)             New York, NY 10023
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Washington Bureau (202/828-6400)
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"CBS Evening News"                       CNN
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New York, NY 10019                       1755 So. Jefferson Davis Highway
212/975-2824                             Arlington, VA 22202
                                         703/685-2175
"Christian Science Monitor"
CSM Publishing Society                   "Los Angeles Times"
One Norway Street                        Times-Mirror Square
Boston, MA 02115                         Los Angeles, CA 90053
800/225-7090                             800/528-4637

CNN                                      "MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour"
One CNN Center                           P.O. Box 2626
Box 105366                               Washington, DC 20013
Atlanta, GA 30348                        703/998-2870
404/827-1500
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Washington, DC 20036                     
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212/556-7415

"New York Times"                         "USA Today"
Washington Bureau                        1000 Wilson Boulevard
1627 Eye Street, NW, 7th Floor           Arlington, VA 22229
Washington, DC 20006                     703/276-3400
202/862-0300

"Newsweek"                               "Wall Street Journal"
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New York, NY 10022                       New York, NY 10281
212/350-4000                             212/416-2000

"Nightline"                              "Washington Post"
ABC News                                 1150 15th Street, NW
47 W. 66th Street                        Washington, DC 20071
New York, NY 10023                       202/344-6000
212/887-4995

"Nightline"                              "Washington Week In Review"
Ted Koppel                               WETA-TV
ABC News                                 P.O. Box 2626
1717 DeSales, NW                         Washington, DC 20013
Washington, DC 20036                     703/998-2626
202/887-7364

"This Week With David Brinkley"
ABC News
1717 DeSales, NW
Washington, DC 20036
202/887-7777

"Time" magazine
Time Warner, Inc.
Time & Life Building
Rockefeller Center
New York, NY 10020
212/522-1212

This kind of argument cries for a comment...

: >>...God did not create
: >>disease nor is He responsible for the maladies of newborns.
: > 
: >>What God did create was life according to a protein code which is
: >>mutable and can evolve.  Without delving into a deep discussion of
: >>creationism vs evolutionism, God created the original genetic code
: >>perfect and without flaw. 
: >  ~~~~~~~     ~~~~~~~ ~~~~

Do you have any evidence for this? If the code was once perfect, and
has degraded ever since, we _should_ have some evidence in favour
of this statement, shouldn't we?

Perhaps the biggest "imperfection" of the code is that it is full
of non-coding regions, introns, which are so called because they
intervene with the coding regions (exons). An impressive amount of
evidence suggests that introns are of very ancient origin; it is
likely that early exons represented early protein domains.

Is the number of introns decreasing or increasing? It appears that
intron loss can occur, and species with common ancestry usually
have quite similar exon-intron structure in their genes. 

On the other hand, the possibility that introns have been inserted
later, presents several logical difficulties. Introns are removed
by a splicing mechanism - this would have to be present, but unused,
if introns are inserted. Moreover, intron insertion would have
required _precise_ targeting - random insertion would not be tolerated,
since sequences for intron removal (self-splicing of mRNA) are
conserved. Besides, transposition of a sequence usually leaves a
trace - long terminal repeats and target - site duplications, and
these are not found in or near intron sequences. 

I seriously recommend reading textbooks on molecular biology and
genetics before posting "theological arguments" like this. 
Try Watson's Molecular Biology of the Gene or Darnell, Lodish
& Baltimore's Molecular Biology of the Cell for starters.

: Remember, the question was posed in a theological context (Why does
: God cause disease in newborns?), and my answer is likewise from a
: theological perspective -- my own.  It is no less valid than a purely
: scientific perspective, just different.

Scientific perspective is supported by the evidence, whereas 
theological perspectives often fail to fulfil this criterion.
 
: I think you misread my meaning.  I said God made the genetic code perfect,
: but that doesn't mean it's perfect now.  It has certainly evolved since.

For the worse? Would you please cite a few references that support
your assertion? Your assertion is less valid than the scientific
perspective, unless you support it by some evidence.

In fact, it has been claimed that parasites and diseases are perhaps
more important than we've thought - for instance, sex might
have evolved as defence against parasites. (This view is supported by
computer simulations of evolution, eg Tierra.) 
 
: Perhaps.  I thought it was higher energy rays like X-rays, gamma
: rays, and cosmic rays that caused most of the damage.

In fact, it is thermal energy that does most of the damage, although
it is usually mild and easily fixed by enzymatic action. 

: Actually, neither of us "knows" what the atmosphere was like at the
: time when God created life.  According to my recollection, most
: biologists do not claim that life began 4 billion years ago -- after
: all, that would only be a half billion years or so after the earth
: was created.  It would still be too primitive to support life.  I
: seem to remember a figure more like 2.5 to 3 billion years ago for
: the origination of life on earth.  Anyone with a better estimate?

I'd replace "created" with "formed", since there is no need to 
invoke any creator if the Earth can be formed without one.
Most recent estimates of the age of the Earth range between 4.6 - 4.8
billion years, and earliest signs of life (not true fossils, but
organic, stromatolite-like layers) date back to 3.5 billion years.
This would leave more than billion years for the first cells to
evolve.

I'm sorry I can't give any references, this is based on the course
on evolutionary biochemistry I attended here. 

: >>dominion, it was no great feat for Satan to genetically engineer
: >>diseases, both bacterial/viral and genetic.  Although the forces of
: >>natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species, the
: >>degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this.  

Again, do you _want_ this be true, or do you have any evidence for
this supposed "degeneration"? 

I can understand Scott's reaction:

: > Excuse me, but this is so far-fetched that I know you must be
: > jesting.  Do you know what pathogens are?  Do you know what 
: > Point Mutations are?  Do you know that EVERYTHING CAN COME
: > ABOUT SPONTANEOUSLY?!!!!!  
: 
: In response to your last statement, no, and neither do you.
: You may very well believe that and accept it as fact, but you
: cannot *know* that.

I hope you don't forget this: We have _evidence_ that suggests 
everything can come about spontaneously. Do you have evidence against
this conclusion? In science, one does not have to _believe_ in 
anything. It is a healthy sign to doubt and disbelieve. But the 
right path to walk is to take a look at the evidence if you do so,
and not to present one's own conclusions prior to this. 

Theology does not use this method. Therefore, I seriously doubt
it could ever come to right conclusions.

: >>Human DNA, being more "complex", tends to accumulate errors adversely
: >>affecting our well-being and ability to fight off disease, while the 
: >>simpler DNA of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in 
: >>causing infection and disease.  It is a bad combination.  Hence
: >>we have newborns that suffer from genetic, viral, and bacterial
: >>diseases/disorders.

You are supposing a purpose, not a valid move. Bacteria and viruses
do not exist to cause disease. They are just another manifests of
a general principle of evolution - only replication saves replicators
from degradiation. We are just an efficient method for our DNA to 
survive and replicate. The less efficient methods didn't make it 
to the present. 

And for the last time.  Please present some evidence for your claim that
human DNA is degrading through evolutionary processes. Some people have
claimed that the opposite is true - we have suppressed our selection,
and thus are bound to degrade. I haven't seen much evidence for either
claim.
 
: But then I ask, So?  Where is this relevant to my discussion in
: answering John's question of why?  Why are there genetic diseases,
: and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require
: babies to develop antibodies.  Is it God's fault? (the original
: question) -- I say no, it is not.

Of course, nothing "evil" is god's fault.  But your explanation does
not work, it fails miserably.
 
: You may be right.  But the fact is that you don't know that
: Satan is not responsible, and neither do I.
: 
: Suppose that a powerful, evil being like Satan exists.  Would it
: be inconceivable that he might be responsible for many of the ills
: that affect mankind?  I don't think so.

He could have done a much better Job. (Pun intended.) The problem is,
it seems no Satan is necessary to explain any diseases, they are
just as inevitable as any product of evolution.

: Did I say that?  Where?  Seems to me like another bad inference.
: Actually what you've done is to oversimplify what I said to the
: point that your summary of my words takes on a new context.  I
: never said that people are "meant" (presumably by God) "to be
: punished by getting diseases".  Why I did say is that free moral
: choices have attendent consequences.  If mankind chooses to reject
: God, as people have done since the beginning, then they should not
: expect God to protect them from adverse events in an entropic
: universe.

I am not expecting this. If god exists, I expect him to leave us alone.
I would also like to hear why do you believe your choices are indeed
free. This is an interesting philosophical question, and the answer
is not as clear-cut as it seems to be.

What consequences would you expect from rejecting Allah?
  
: Oh, I admit it's not perfect (yet).  But I'm working on it.  :)

A good library or a bookstore is a good starting point.

: What does this have to do with the price of tea in China, or the
: question to which I provided an answer?  Biology and Genetics are
: fine subjects and important scientific endeavors.  But they explain
: *how* God created and set up life processes.  They don't explain
: the why behind creation, life, or its subsequent evolution.

Why is there a "why behind"? And your proposition was something
that is not supported by the evidence. This is why we recommend
these books.

Is there any need to invoke any why behind, a prime mover? Evidence
for this? If the whole universe can come into existence without
any intervention, as recent cosmological theories (Hawking et al)
suggest, why do people still insist on this?
 
: Thanks Scotty, for your fine and sagely advice.  But I am
: not highly motivated to learn all the nitty-gritty details
: of biology and genetics, although I'm sure I'd find it a
: fascinating subject.  For I realize that the details do
: not change the Big Picture, that God created life in the
: beginning with the ability to change and adapt to its
: environment.

I'm sorry, but they do. There is no evidence for your big picture,
and no need to create anything that is capable of adaptation.
It can come into existence without a Supreme Being.

Try reading P.W. Atkins' Creation Revisited (Freeman, 1992).

Petri

: 
: >I've got the 6.0 spec (obviously since I quoted it in my last posting). 
: >My gripe about TIFF is that it's far too complicated and nearly
: >infinitely easier to write than to read,...
: 
: Why not use the PD C library for reading/writing TIFF files? It took me a
: good 20 minutes to start using them in your own app.
: 
: Martin
: 
What is the name of this PD C library for TIFF.  I'd like to get a copy of it,
but I can't Archie for something I don't have the filename for.

Just a few cheap shots a Christianity:

Riddle: What is the shortest street in Jerusalem?
Answer: The Street of the Righteous Poles.

Limrick:

There was an archeologist Thostle
Who found an amazing fossil
By the way it was bent
And the knot it the end
'twas the penis of Paul the Apostle.

Jingle:
Christianity hits the spot
Twelve Apostles thats a lot
Jesus Christ and a Virgin too
Christianity's the faith for you
(with apologies to Pepsi Cola and its famous jingle)

Riddle:
How many Christians does it take to save a light bulb.
Answer: None, only Jesus can save.

Aphorism:
Jesus Saves
Moses Invests

Proof that Jesus was Jewish:
1. He lived at home till he was 33
2. He went into his fathers business
3. He thought he mother was a virgin
4. His mother thought he was God.

QED.

So long you all

Bob Kolker
"I would rather spend eternity in Hell with interesting people 
than eternity in Heaven with Christians"

A new alternative to Scouting for those "unacceptable to BSA" for reasons
of religious or sexual preference:

From: "BOYD R. CRITZ, III" <71611.365@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: EnviroLeague

"Birth Announcement" on March 7, 1993, from EARTH Forum, CompuServe
                       Information Service
===================================================================
 
                     FORMAL ANNOUNCEMENT
                     -------------------
 
                                     (SM)
                        EnviroLeague
 
A new youth movement,"EnviroLeague," was recently born, according to its
founder, Boyd R. Critz, III (CIS ID# 71611,365), of Peoria, Illinois.
EnviroLeague exists for the education of youth, both male and female, in
matters concerning their values related to and responsibility for our
 
Incorporated as an Illinois not-for-profit corporation, its Articles and
initial applications for a service mark have now been filed.  According to
Critz, its draft Bylaws contain the following statement of Mission and
Objectives:
 
                           MISSION
 
   It is the Mission of EnviroLeague and its adult members
   to foster and implement the improved education of young
   people in the need to conduct their lives as Stewards
   of The Earth, to leave The Earth in a better condition
   than they found it, and to otherwise act as responsible,
   moral and ethical users of their environment.  To pursue
   the accomplishment of this Mission, EnviroLeague shall
   seek to serve as a catalyst, focusing in common cause the
   separate efforts of all groups desiring the preservation,
   improvement, and responsible use of the environment in
   which we must all live.
 
                         OBJECTIVES
 
   In pursuit of the Mission of EnviroLeague, its primary
   objectives shall be:
       (1)  To establish a Movement involving as many
            environmentally concerned organizations as
            possible, said Movement having as its primary
            focus the education and participatory
            involvement of young people in appropriate areas
            of environmental concern;
       (2)  To develop and provide to such organizations and
            their branches a full complement of program
            materials for their use, including suitable
            uniforms, insignia and other badges, written
            ideas, syllabi and information, literature and
            other items as shall seem appropriate and
            desirable;
       (3)  To serve as a "clearing house" for the exchange
            of program ideas, materials and information
            among said organizations;  and
       (4)  To assist environmentally concerned
            organizations to recruit and train the necessary
            adult leadership for their youth programs.
 
EnviroLeague will operate through three "Program Divisions" serving youth in
the elementary, middle and high school grades, respectively.  Service shall be
through formation of "EnviroLeague Teams," either by EnviroLeague itself or by
environmentally conscious organizations (or their local branches) wishing a
charter to use programs developed by EnviroLeague.
 
EnviroLeague, as it develops, will be controlled by the actual adult leaders
of each local Team, and will have no nationally imposed obstacles to
membership or adult leadership status not based upon relevant improper
conduct. Organizations accepting a charter may, however, impose certain
additional standards for their own use of the program material.  Should such
organizations do so, EnviroLeague will commit itself to forming, as soon as
possible, new nearby Teams having no such restrictions, particularly as to
youth membership.
 
EnviroLeague will operate on the principle that youth will have much to
contribute to developing its programs.  Thus, the top youth leaders of its
Teams for middle and high school youth may become involved in governing any
local administrative groups, and those for its high school youth may be
involved in similar functions at the national level.
 
Program materials are in development at this time.  Copies of the "draft"
portions of the Mentor's Manual (manual for adult leadership) will be in the
EARTH Forum, Library 17. These files will be updated as development takes
place.
 
CompuServe is particularly proud that EnviroLeague's founder chose this
electronic medium to make the first public announcement of its formation.
This announcement is being made simultaneously in both the OUTDOOR and EARTH
Forums.
 
The electronic home of EnviroLeague is in CompuServe's Earth Forum - GO
EARTH - message and library areas 17, both named "EnviroLeague."
============================================================================
 
Subsequently, EnviroLeague's Initial Governance Council has held its first
meeting.  Boyd Critz was elected as the first EnviroLeague Chief Guardian
(equivalent to Chairman of the Board or CEO).  He can be reached at home
(309) 675-4483 in case of real need.  Also, mail can be addressed to:
       EnviroLeague
       P.O. Box 418
       Peoria, IL  61651-0418
 
Those interested in starting an EnviroLeague Team might just establish
contact, to receive a diskette (IBM DOS, ASCII) with initial information.
-- 

Well, we got some responses and are doing some interviews with interesting
responders. However, just in case the other posting was overlooked by an
incredibly talented person ... Mea Culpa for posting this here for Mike,
but we're looking for someone special:

   Tandem Computers is currently looking for a software wizard to help
 us architect & implement a fault-tolerant generalized instrumentation
 subsystem as part of our proprietary operating system kernel (TNS
 Kernel). The TNS Kernel is a proprietary, loosely-coupled parallel,
 message-based operating system. The TNS Kernel has wide connectivity
 to open standards.
   In this key individual contributor role, you will work with other
 developers working on various components of the Transaction Management
 Facility.
   Your background needs to encompass some of the following 4 categories
 (3 of 4 would be excellent):
   Category 1. Math: Working knowledge of statistics, real analysis, as
 used in experimental physics or chemistry, or in engineering.
   Category 2. Working knowledge of telemetry issues-- i.e. time series,
 autocorrelation, and statistical correlation of data streams.
   Category 3. Integration & Test -- Instrumentation of systems under test,
 i.e. payloads, flight modules, etc.
   Category 4: Software Engineering: programming skills, algorithms, and
 systems software techniques.

Actually, that is no longer true. In the last few years Congress has
ammended laws to provide whatever is needed. Note that both Spacehab
and Comet are funded this way.

The problems aren't legal nor technical. The problem is NASA's culture.

  Allen

YOU BLASHEPHEMERS!!! YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD!!!!  BE
PREPARED FOR YOUR ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!

 My poor old physics intuition will be very surprised if these tiny
 masses, sitting very close to Jupiter, play any role whatsoever in the
 problem.   Or, to put it more technically, the extra "volume" they add
 to the phase space of possible capture trajectories is negligible.
 
 Jupiter is 2E27 kg, while the Galilean satellites are around 1E23.
 
 Also, as I said, the few references that I've looked at do not
 mention outgassing or breakup as important processes.  The important
 thing is a Jupiter-Sun-comet "reverse slingshot" that leads to a
 weakly Jupiter-bound orbit for the comet (at least a temporary one).

Tony-

I read your post, it was nothing new, I had seen much the same in other
typical"Christian" anti-gay sentimental literature.  Gay people are and will
con- tinue to be persecuted as long as such propaganda petpetuates.  You may
be unaware of all the statistica "findings" concerning African-Americans that
have been published and used by various groups to re-enforce their own bias
against African-Americans.  We usually think of the KKK in these instances,
but there are many other groups.  Of course, the vast majority of the public
scoff at such findings and documents today, but that was not always the case.
Fortunately African-Americans had "whites" who supported their 'cause' and
public sentiment was eventually (if not entirely) turned around.  There was
even a Civil War, and anti-negro sentiment increased.  In fact, until laws
were put in place to protect the inalienable rights of Blacks it was pretty
much legal to discriminate against them.

I know many gays and I will NOT turn my back on them or their right to be free
form discrimination.  You may think that I have been deceived or something,
that is your perogative.  My church, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
openly affirms the rights of oppressed people of all segments of society,
including gays.  We believe the Gospel message of preaching to all creation
and making disciples.  We believe in the Lord's great commandment to Love,
and we beleive in standing up for the oppressed, even if it is not popular
to do so.  I really like my church for last reason the most.  I can find a
church almost anywhere in the valley that stands for the Gospel and believes
in the commandment of Love (though I'm hard-pressed to find many who actually
sho Love), but not many are willing to champion the oppressed, especially
within their own community.  I may have lost face with the greater Christian
community for the unpopularity of my beliefs, but so did the abolitionists
against the oppression of African-Americans.  Many were even killed and
treated as runaway slaves for being "nigger-lovers" and such.  I guess I've
decided the challenge is worth it.

In my talks with gay men and women I have heard tragic story after tragic
story centering around failed marriages, wives and husbands who are straight
who have been hurt in the process, etc.  Funny thing is, I don't know of one
case where the parents, ex-wives, or even children have continued to reject
their gay family member (son, daughter, ex-husband, father, etc.) after they
began to take part in some form of support group, like PFLAG.

I'm apalled by the legislation which passed in Colorado, and am equally out0
raged that such slimey people as Louis Sheldon (from the Tradition Values
Coalition) have been actively working in the Christian underground to garner
support within several (8 I believe) states this coming November for more
oppressive legisation against gays.

Perhaps you don't get it, and maybe you never will.  Many didn't get it in the
Middle Ages and the proclaimed God's will be done as they massacred thousands
in witch hunts and inquisitions.

The message that comes through, loud and clear, by proponents against gay
rights and against gays in general, is that there is a strong dislike, even
hatred for gays, whether you want to call it such or not (it doesn't change
the results).  The major flaw in all this posturing is that in the end, the
final effect of posts like that of yours and Mr. Hudson is that YOU have a
"conditional" love for gays.  Condition:  Change and we'll love you. This is
sure strange coming from a group who claim that God has an "unconditional"
love, one that calls people "just as they are."  Sure there are things that
will 'naturally' change, and habits (like alcoholism, wife beating, etc.) that
need to be changed through some sort of therapy.  But then there are things
like left-handedness, etc. that no amount of beating it out of people, is
going to result in anything more than an outward conforminty to "other
people's expectations." In the process this coerced conformity causes many
people a great deal of harm, especially when it is caused by people who have
nothing more to gain from it that to become even more puffed up about their
own sense of pseuper-spirituality.

This is sad, but I thoroughly believe that one day it will change.  It may be
unpopular to cry for justice and equality when the basis has to do with
something very personal like 'sexuality' (a taboo subject even today), but I
firmly believe in the rights of individuals to be free from impose regulation
on thier bedrooms.  It's funny that most straight people have successfully
removed restrictive and oppressive legislation against invasive legislation,
but we like to maintain this little chestnut of repression...as though it
helps us maintain a sense of superiority over at least one segment of society.
Gay people are not criminals.

Another interesting thing happened recently.  A very prominent charismatic
church in the Silicon Valley (here) had two of it's pastors arrested for self-
admitted charges of pederasty (men having sex with boys).  This had apparently
been going on for some time (a couple years?), but since the charges were
voluntary, and the church worked closely with the police, so I imagine that
was how they managed to downplay it in the media.  How could such a thing
happen when the church, itself, has an ex-gay ministry?  One of my friends
recently told me he was "approached" by someone who is going through the
reparitive therapy there, and he was thoroughly convinced that the request for
dinner was not an invitation to attend the ministry.

These are difficult times we live in, but providing hostile environments and
creating and perpetuating an atmosphere that breed hate and violence is not
the call of the Christian community.  The results of the passing amendment in
Colorado has created an organization who's posters are appearing all over
Colorado called "S.T.R.A.I.G.H.T." (I forget the whole definition off hand,
but the last part was Against Immoral Gross Homosexual Trash) and their motto
is "Working for a fag-free America" with an implicit advocation for violence.

This is sick, and it seems to be what you and Mr. Hudson, and others are
embracing.

We Christians have a LOOOOOOOOOONG tradition of coersion and oppression
towards those we feel don't 'measure up', and constant beratement from
organizations like The Christian Research Institute, while they do have a good
purpose also, their major work seems to be finding new and better ways of
excluding people.

The Gospel I believe is not so negative, rather it seeks ways to "include"
people.  I have several of Dr. Martin's books and find them quite helpful,
especially concerning 'cults.' But it seems that CRI, has become a cult unto
itself.  Why don't we just stick to the positive and find ways to bring people
to Jesus istead of taking bullwhips and driving them away?

Whatever

        Yep... Alchemy works fine on my Tseng400+DAC, but I think I remember
reading that it only displays in 15-bit or so.  Of course, that's still 32K
colors which is nothing to sneeze at.  Use the --v flag.

--
 Neal Miller         | "Why not go mad?"  | millernw@craft.camp.clarkson.edu
 Clarkson University |     - Ford Prefect |     dark@craft.camp.clarkson.edu

Actuallay I don't, but on the other hand I don't support the idea of having
one newsgroup for every aspect of graphics programming as proposed by Brian,
in his reply to my original posting.
I would suggest a looser structure more like a comp.graphics.programmer,
comp.graphics.hw_and_sw
The reason for making as few groups as possible is for the same reason you
say we shouldn't spilt up, not to get to few postings every day.
I takes to much time to browse through all postings just to find two or 
three I'm interested in.

I understand and agree when you say you want all aspects of graphics in one
meeting. I agree to some extension. I see news as a forum to exchange ideas,
help others or to be helped. I think this is difficult to achive if there
are so many different things in one meeting.

Good evening netters|-)

Could you explain what any of this pertains to? Is this a position
statement on something or typing practice? And why are you using my
name, do you think this relates to anything I've said and if so, what.

Maybe I should point out that we are not talking about c.s.amiga.*.
Only comp.graphics.

: I
: |> Jim,
: |> 
: |> I always thought that homophobe was only a word used at Act UP
: |> rallies, I didn't beleive real people used it. Let's see if we agree
: |> on the term's definition. A homophobe is one who actively and
: |> militantly attacks homosexuals because he is actually a latent
: |> homosexual who uses his hostility to conceal his true orientation.
: |> Since everyone who disapproves of or condemns homosexuality is a
: |> homophobe (your implication is clear), it must necessarily follow that
: |> all men are latent homosexuals or bisexual at the very least.
: |> 
: 
: Crap crap crap crap crap.  A definition of any type of 'phobe comes from
: phobia = an irrational fear of.  Hence a homophobe (not only in ACT UP meetings,
: the word is apparently in general use now.  Or perhaps it isn't in the bible?  
: Wouldst thou prefer if I were to communicate with thou in bilespeak?)
: 
: Does an arachnophobe have an irrational fear of being a spider?  Does an
: agoraphobe have an irrational fear of being a wide open space?  Do you
: understand English?
: 
: Obviously someone who has  phobia will react to it.  They will do their best
: to avoid it and if that is not possible they will either strike out or
: run away.  Or do gaybashings occur because of natural processes?  People
: who definately have homophobia will either run away from gay people or
: cause them (or themselves) violence.
: 

Isn't that what I said ...
What are you taking issue with here, your remarks are merely
parenthetical to mine and add nothing useful.

: [...]
: 
: |> It would seem odd if homosexuality had any evolutionary function
: |> (other than limiting population growth) since evolution only occurs
: |> when the members of one generation pass along their traits to
: |> subsequent generations. Homosexuality is an evolutionary deadend. If I
: |> take your usage of the term, homophobe, in the sense you seem to
: |> intend, then all men are really homosexual and evolution of our
: |> species at least, is going nowhere.
: |> 
: 
: So *every* time a man has sex with a woman they intend to produce children?
: Hmm...no wonder the world is overpopulated.  Obviously you keep to the
: Monty Python song:  "Every sperm is sacred".  And if, as *you* say, it has
: a purpose as a means to limit population growth then it is, by your own 
: arguement, natural.

Consider the context, I'm talking about an evolutionary function. One
of the most basic requirements of evolution is that members of a
species procreate, those who don't have no purpose in that context.

: 
: |> Another point is that if the offspring of each generation is to
: |> survive, the participation of both parents is necessary - a family must
: |> exist, since homosexuals do not reproduce, they cannot constitute a
: |> family. Since the majority of humankind is part of a family,
: |> homosexuality is an evolutionary abberation, contrary to nature if you
: |> will.
: |> 
: 
: Well if that is true, by your own arguements homosexuals would have 
: vanished *years* ago due to non-procreation.  Also the parent from single
: parent families should put the babies out in the cold now, cos they must,
: by your arguement, die.

By your argument, homosexuality is genetically determined. As to your
second point, you prove again that you have no idea what context
means. I am talking about evolution, the preservation of the species,
the fundamental premise of the whole process.
: 
: |> But it gets worse. Since the overwhelming majority of people actually
: |> -prefer- a heterosexual relationship, homosexuality is a social
: |> abberation as well. The homosexual eschews the biological imperative
: |> to reproduce and then the social imperative to form and participate in
: |> the most fundamental social element, the family. But wait, there's
: |> more.
: |> 
: 
: Read the above.  I expect you to have at least ten children by now, with
: the family growing.  These days sex is less to do with procreation (admittedly
: without it there would be no-one) but more to do with pleasure.  In pre-pill
: and pre-condom days, if you had sex there was the chance of producing children.
: These days is just ain't true!  People can decide whether or not to have 
: children and when.  Soon they will be able to choose it's sex &c (but that's 
: another arguement...) so it's more of a "lifestyle" decision.  Again by
: your arguement, since homosexuals can not (or choose not) to reproduce they must
: be akin to people who decide to have sex but not children.  Both are 
: as "unnatural" as each other.

Yet another non-sequitur. Sex is an evolutionary function that exists
for procreation, that it is also recreation is incidental. That
homosexuals don't procreate means that sex is -only- recreation and
nothing more; they serve no -evolutionary- purpose.

: 
: |> Since homosexuals have come out the closet and have convinced some
: |> policy makers that they have civil rights, they are now claiming that
: |> their sexuality is a preference, a life-style, an orientation, a
: |> choice that should be protected by law. Now if homosexuality is a mere
: |> choice and if it is both contrary to nature and anti-social, then it
: |> is a perverse choice; they have even less credibility than before they
: |> became prominent. 
: |> 
: 
: People are people are people.  Who are you to tell anyone else how to live
: their life?  Are you god(tm)?  If so, fancy a date?

Here's pretty obvious dodge, do you really think you've said anything
or do you just feel obligated to respond to every statement? I am not
telling anyone anything, I am demonstrating that there are arguments
against the practice of homosexuality (providing it's a merely an
alternate lifestlye) that are not homophobic, that one can reasonably
call it perverse in a context even a atheist can understand. I realize
of course that this comes dangerously close to establishing  a value,
and that atheists are compelled to object on that basis, but if you
are to be consistent, you have no case in this regard.
: 
: |> To characterize any opposition to homosexuality as homophobic is to
: |> ignore some very compelling arguments against the legitimization of
: |> the homosexual "life-style". But since the charge is only intended to
: |> intimidate, it's really just demogoguery and not to be taken
: |> seriously. Fact is, Jim, there are far more persuasive arguments for
: |> suppressing homosexuality than those given, but consider this a start.
: |> 
: 
: Again crap.  All your arguments are based on outdated ideals.  Likewise the
: bible.  Would any honest Christian condemn the ten generations spawned by
: a "bastard" to eternal damnation?  Or someone who crushes his penis (either
: accidently or not..!).  Both are in Deuteronomy.

I'm sure your comment pertains to something, but you've disguised it
so well I can't see what. Where did I mention ideals, out-dated or
otherwise? Your arguments are very reactionary; do you have anything
at all to contribute?

: 
: |> As to why homosexuals should be excluded from participation in
: |> scouting, the reasons are the same as those used to restrict them from
: |> teaching; by their own logic, homosexuals are deviates, social and
: |> biological. Since any adult is a role model for a child, it is
: |> incumbent on the parent to ensure that the child be isolated from
: |> those who would do the child harm. In this case, harm means primarily
: |> social, though that could be extended easily enough.
: |> 
: |> 
: 
: You show me *anyone* who has sex in a way that everyone would describe as
: normal, and will take of my hat (Puma baseball cap) to you.  "One man's meat
: is another man's poison"!
: 

What has this got to do with anything? Would you pick a single point
that you find offensive and explain your objections, I would really
like to believe that you can discuss this issue intelligibly.

You keep saying that. I do not think it means what you think it
means.
Perhaps you should explain what you think "science has it's basis
in values" means. The reason why people DO science is that
they value it's results. That does not mean that science has
it's basis in values. Any more than DES stops working if I stop
valuing my privacy.

See above.

-Ekr

I've been given the sites of some excellent 3D objects on all sorts of file formats ...
Here's where they are:

Host plaza.aarnet.edu.au

    Location: /graphics/graphics/mirrors
      DIRECTORY drwxr-xr-x        512  Apr  4 14:32  avalon.chinalake.navy.mil

Host compute1.cc.ncsu.edu

    Location: /mirrors/wustl/graphics/graphics/mirrors
      DIRECTORY drwxr-xr-x        512  Mar 14 09:15  avalon.chinalake.navy.mil

Host wuarchive.wustl.edu

      DIRECTORY drwxr-xr-x        512  Jan  3 06:29  avalon.chinalake.navy.mil

Nick Haines sez;

Level 5?  Out of how many?  What are the different levels?  I've never
heard of this rating system.  Anyone care to clue me in?

-Tommy Mac

Our group recently bought a Mitsubishi P78U video printer and I could use some
help with it.  We bought this thing because it (1) has a parallel data input in
addition to the usual video signal inputs and (2) claimed to print 256 gray
level images.  However, the manual that came with it only describes how to
format the parallel data to print 1 and 4 bit/pixel images.  After some initial
problems with the parallel interface I now have this thing running from a
parallel port of an Hewlett-Packard workstation and I can print 1 and 4
bit/pixel images just fine.  I called the Mitsubishi people and asked about the
256 level claim and they said that was only available when used with the video
signal inputs.  This was not mentioned in the sales literature.  However they
did say the P78U can do 6 bit/pixel (64 level) images in parallel mode, but
they didn't have any information about how to program it to do so, and they
would call Japan, etc.

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that if this thing can do 8 bit/pixel images
from the video source, it can't store 8 bits/pixel in the memory.  It's not
like memory is that expensive any more.  If anybody has any information on
getting 6 bit/pixel (or even 8 bit/pixel) images out of this thing, I would
greatly appreciate your sending it to me.

Thanks.

I don't think there is really any question about which god the courts
mean.  The request for solemnly swearing, so help you god,
 is always made after a request to pick up the bible in your left hand
and hold up your right hand.  In the courts of NC, at least, it is always
an old and new testament.

Likewise for me please. First time I've hear of it, but I've beem looking
for something like this for the past few months.

Any suggestions as to what a better solution might be?  I realize the
off-hand nature of the numbers I used.  And I can't answer as to what
an acceptable loss rate is.  However,  as I said in another post,  I
despise the idea of supporting criminals for life.  It's the economics
of the situation that concern me most.  The money spent feeding, clothing,
housing and taking care of people who have demonstrated that they are
unfit to live in society could go to a number of places,  all of which
I, and probably others,  would consider far more worthwhile and which
would enrish the lives of all Americans.  Give people jobs,  give the
homeless shelter.  Any number of things.

Clyde

My own personal and highly subjective opinion is that freedom
is a good thing.

However, when I here people assert that the only "true" freedom
is in following the words of this and that Messiah, I realise
that people don't even agree on the meaning of the word.

What does it mean to say that word X represents an objective
value when word X has no objective meaning?

I am working on a project where we are going to be including
both still and moving grapics within a database.  Of course
JPEG and MPEG come to mind as the formats of choice for the
various files.  However, from what I read on the Net, it seems
as if there are several different forms of each of these.

What I want to do, is settle on a file format which I can count
on as being a standard format 10 years from now.  I know Apple is going
to support Quicktime on the new Power PC's and, so this
may be the format of choice.

What format does Apple's Quicktime use for their products?  I guess
it is some kind of MPEG for their motion picture. Is it any different
than standard MPEG files?

Thanx for any info!

: 
: >> Please enlighten me.  How is omnipotence contradictory?
: 
: >By definition, all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules
: >of nature. Thus god cannot break them. Anything that god does must be allowed
: >in the rules somewhere. Therefore, omnipotence CANNOT exist! It contradicts
: >the rules of nature.
: 
: Obviously, an omnipotent god can change the rules.

When you say, "By definition", what exactly is being defined;
certainly not omnipotence. You seem to be saying that the "rules of
nature" are pre-existant somehow, that they not only define nature but
actually cause it. If that's what you mean I'd like to hear your
further thoughts on the question.

I need information on the Display PostScript strokeadjust feature.
This feature adjusts the endpoints of lines so that the displayed line
looks better on low resolution devices.

The PostScript literature explains the process to some extent.  They
also give an example of how to "emulate" strokeadjust in PostScript
environments where it is absent.

The suggested emulation is to modify the coordinates of the endpoints
of a line using the following formula for each coordinate:

	new_coord = (round (old_coord - 0.25)) + 0.25
	
Doing this we end up with all coordinates ending in ".25".  From
reading I thought that what they might actually do is:

	new_coord = ((trunc (old_coord * 2)) / 2) + 0.25
	
This results in all the coordinates ending in either "0.25" or "0.75" 
whichever is closer.

By doing some actual comparisons with Display PostScript, I find that
neither of these is what DPS really uses.  Since I like how the DPS
result looks better than how my stuff looks, I'd like to know if
anyone who knows how DPS does it is willing/able to tell me.

Thanks,

doing this.  I learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading
this group, from code to hardware to algorithms.  I just think making 5
different groups out of this is a wate, and will only result in a few posts
a week per group.  I kind of like the convenience of having one big forum
for discussing all aspects of graphics.  Anyone else feel this way?
Just curious.

The argument goes as follows: Q-oid quotes appear in John, but not in
the almost codified way they were in Matthew or Luke. However, they are
considered to be similar enough to point to knowledge of Q as such, and
not an entirely different source.
 
We are talking date of texts here, not the age of the authors. The usual
explanation for the time order of Mark, Matthew and Luke does not consider
their respective ages. It says Matthew has read the text of Mark, and Luke
that of Matthew (and probably that of Mark).
 
As it is assumed that John knew the content of Luke's text. The evidence
for that is not overwhelming, admittedly.
 
When they are from about 200, why do they shed doubt on the order on
putting John after the rest of the three?
 
Sure, an original together with Id card of sender and receiver would be
fine. So what's that supposed to say? Am I missing something?
 
That John was a disciple is not generally accepted. The style and language
together with the theology are usually used as counterargument.
 
The argument that John was a disciple relies on the claim in the gospel
of John itself. Is there any other evidence for it?
 
One step and one generation removed is bad even in our times. Compare that
to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies.
Not even to speak off that believers are not necessarily the best sources.
 
In other words, one does not know what the original of Mark did look like
and arguments based on Mark are pretty weak.

It is usually possible to reach people at IKI (Institute for Space
Research) in Moscow by writing to

	IKIMAIL@esoc1.bitnet

This is a machine at ESA in Darmstadt, Germany; IKI has a dedicated
phone line to this machine and someone there logs in regularly to
retrieve mail.

In addition, there are several user accounts belonging to Russian
scientific institutions on

	<user>@sovam.com

which is a commercial enterprise based in San Francisco that provides
email services to the former USSR.  For example, fian@sovam.com is the
"PHysics Institute of the Academy of Sciences" (initials transliterated
from Russian, of course).  These connections cost the Russians real
dollars, even for *received* messages, so please don't send anything
voluminous or frivilous.

=====================================================================
Larry R. D'Addario
National Radio Astronomy Observatory

Is posible to make copies of these photographs (or any other aerospace
photographs at NASM) if you pay a copyright fee?

Hello.

I just read my first newspaper in a while and noticed an article on a
'messianic cult' leader named 'David Koresh'.

I'd like to know more about this and what is going on with them.

Please email me as I don't normally read this newsgroup.  Thanks.

Hallo POV-Renderers !
I've got a BocaX3 Card. Now I try to get POV displaying True Colors
while rendering. I've tried most of the options and UNIVESA-Driver
but what happens isn't correct.
Can anybody help me ?

And I think we ought to hold Christ accoountable for all of his followers 
who died at the hand of the Romans also. It was their own fault for believing.

God, this society reminds me more of the Roman Empire every day; I guess
I'll just log off and go watch American Gladiators.

m> The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once he's
m> finished writing a sequel to the Bible.

Also, it's the 16th now.  Can the Feds get him on tax evasion?  I don't
remember hearing about him running to the Post Office last night.

Brian K., guess what?  You missed the point.  On a scale from cold to
hot, you are at 0 degrees Kelvin.

Then as you understand it, what is it?

Yes.  I agree with that.  But what does that have to do with Jesus?
Punishment you say?  Jesus did not regard his death as punishment. 

Good.  I wouldn't either--not the way you understand it.  

Ask Jesus himself.  He himself said why in John 12:23-32.  It
isn't a mystery to anyone and there certainly is no need for
a persuasive argument.   Read Jesus's own reply to your
question.

Jesus gives more reasons in John 16:7.  But one obvious reason
why Jesus died, (and as with everything else, it has nothing do with
his punishment) was that he could rise to life again--so that
we would "stop doubting and believe" (John 21:27).  The fact
that Jesus rose from the dead is my hope that I too will rise
from the dead.  It is an obvious point.  Do not overlook it.
Without this obvious point, I would have no hope
and my faith would be vanity.

Why did Jesus suffer in his death?  Again, ask Jesus.  Jesus
says why in John 15:18-25.   That's no mystery either.  "The
world hates him without reason."  It is a direct proclamation
of how far we humans botch things up and thus, how much we
need a Saviour.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Christians are required to observe
the Sabbath, whether it is on Saturday or Sunday.  The Sabbath was part
of a Covenent between God and the Israelites and is not required for

What is the phone number for Alias?
A toll-free number is preferred, if available.

Thanks

Are you your own master?  Do you have any habits that you cannot break?
For one, you seem unable to master your lack of desire to understand
even the slightest concept of the Bible.  Seems that ignorance has you
mastered.  How about sexual sins?  Gotta any of those secret desires
in your head that you harbor but can get control of?   Do you dehumanize
women when they walk past you?  Do you degrade them to a sex object in
your head?  Are you the master of that kind of thinking?  Do you insult
people unknowingly, then regret it later.  Yet do it again the next
time opportunity presents itself?  Are you truly the master of yourself?

I have admitted that I am not the master of my thought life at all times.
That I sometimes say things I do want to say, and then repeat my mistake
unwantingly.  I have admitted to myself that I cannot control every aspect
of my being.  There are times I know I shouldn't say something, but
then say it anyway.  There are times I simply forget a lesson.
I, in fact, am not my own master.  I need help.  Jesus promised me
this help.  And I took him up on his offer.  I have willfully let
Jesus be my master because Jesus knows what is better for me than
I myself do.  And why not?  Does not the creator know his creation
better than the creation?  Does Toyota know what's better for the
Corolla than the Corolla?

Then I guess ignorance is bliss for you.  Because Brian, you enjoy
not having a clue about the Bible.   

Can you witness motherly love with your senses?  How does caring and
concern for you register with your senses?  If nothing registers
to you other than what you can see, taste, smell, hear and touch,
then you better become a Vulcan and fast.  You better get rid
of your emotions.

And I do have a good reason to believe what I do.

The topic was about my God and your lack of knowledge about what my
God says.   My God says that you will not CEASE EXISTING.  You have
life forever.  You can choose to either live it in hell in eternal
torment where there is no communication whatsoever, or can choose to 
live it in paradise with God.  That is what my God says.  And that
was the issue.  Your made-up theism is what it is--made up.  It's
wishful thinking.
 
Is this the religion of Kendigianism?  Most people are not Christian.  Most
people, including Christians,  are not fond of feeling that they
are imperfect.  Is "the world an undesireable place" a doctrine
of Kendigianism?  It has nothing to do with my God.  Does
Kendigism have magical mystical prayers as a part of its worship?
Mine doesn't.  Does Kendigianism believe that the world will be holy again?  
Mine doesn't.  Does Kendigianism also dictate that one must obey what the
priest tells them like good little sheep?  Mine doesn't.  Is this
a bunch of lies you tell yourself so that you can justify being 
ignorant of the Bible?

Brian, following Christ has nothing to do with the doctrines of Kendigianism.
You would find any of your doctrines in the Bible.   I don't follow Kendigianism.
I follow Christ.   Also, to try to again show you your ignorance
of Christ and the Bible in regards to "priests",  have you not read about
the sole Melchizedek priest in Hebrews 7 and 8?  Have you not read what the
purpose is of the Old Testament Levitical priesthood and why there should
NOT be priests today?  Yes, guess what?  The Catholics messed up.  I do
not follow Catholicism or any "ism."  I follow Christ.

Why would you want to live a good life?
To you, you die and that's it.  Don't contradict yourself.  You have
no reason to live a good life.  It doesn't do you any good in the
end.  Your life doesn't do anybody else any good  either because
everyone dies anyway.  So you have no reason to lead a good life. Leading
a good life is meaningless.   Why do you do such a meaningless thing?

Has the resurrection sunk in?  Jesus is alive.  Jesus is NOT dead.
Jesus was sacrified to fufill the Old Testament sacrificial system
in its every detail.  Jesus's death was like a seed.  He needed
to fall to the ground so that many new lives would take root.  Did
you miss the entire John passage as well?  

Forget that I am a person.  Forget that I know how to type.  Forget
that I know how to put a sentence together.  Forget that I know
how to send e-mail.   Forget my existence.  Proove to me that I
exist.  .

Sorry for the repeat of this request, but does anyone know of a good
free/shareware program with which I can create ray-traces and save
them as bit-mapped files?  (Of course if there is such a thing =)

   As for advertising -- sure, why not?  A NASA friend and I spent one
   drunken night figuring out just exactly how much gold mylar we'd need
   to put the golden arches of a certain American fast food organization
   on the face of the Moon.  Fortunately, we sobered up in the morning.

Hmmm. It actually isn't all that much, is it? Like about 2 million
km^2 (if you think that sounds like a lot, it's only a few tens of m^2
per burger that said organization sold last year). You'd be best off
with a reflective substance that could be sprayed thinly by an
unmanned craft in lunar orbit (or, rather, a large set of such craft).
If you can get a reasonable albedo it would be visible even at new
moon (since the moon itself is quite dark), and _bright_ at full moon.
You might have to abandon the colour, though.

Buy a cheap launch system, design reusable moon -> lunar orbit
unmanned spraying craft, build 50 said craft, establish a lunar base
to extract TiO2 (say: for colour you'd be better off with a sulphur
compound, I suppose) and some sort of propellant, and Bob's your
uncle.  I'll do it for, say, 20 billion dollars (plus changes of
identity for me and all my loved ones). Delivery date 2010.

Can we get the fast-food chain bidding against the fizzy-drink
vendors? Who else might be interested?

Would they buy it, given that it's a _lot_ more expensive, and not
much more impressive, than putting a large set of several-km
inflatable billboards in LEO (or in GEO, visible 24 hours from your
key growth market). I'll do _that_ for only $5bn (and the changes of
identity).

              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

When are we going to hear a Christian answer to this question? 

In paraphrase: 

[Rest deleted.  Can anybody out in a.p.h help out?]

Find out about "the night of the brown shirts".

TO: saz@hook.corp.mot.com

SZ>Does anybody know of a program that converts .GIF files to .BMP files
SZ>and if so, where can I ftp it from?  Any help would be greatly
SZ>appreciated.

  Sure... A GREAT shareware  program is Graphic Workshop (the newest
  version is 6.1).  Although I don't know where you can ftp it from.  It
  also converts to about 15 other formats, and does MANY other things.

....r.c V.t.ell. .r...

The following press release was distributed April 1 by
NASA Headquarters.

Space Station Redesign Advisory Members Named

Along with Dr. Charles M. Vest, recently named by Vice President
Albert Gore to head the advisory committee on the redesign of the
Space Station, NASA has announced the names of representatives
from government and industry and academic experts from across the
country to participate in an independent review of the redesign
options being developed by NASA.

"I am extremely honored to have been selected to lead this
important review panel. America's future in science and
technology and as a world leader in space demands our utmost
attention and care," said Vest. "We have assembled a diverse
panel of experts that, I believe, will bring the appropriate
measures of insight, integrity and objectivity to this critical
task."

The advisory committee is charged with independently assessing
various redesign options of the space station presented by NASA's
redesign team, and proposing recommendations to improve
efficiency and effectiveness of the space station program. Space
station international partners also are being asked to 
participate and will be named at a later date. The advisory
committee will submit its recommendations in June.

Advisory committee members named today include:

Dr. Charles Vest              Dr. Bobby Alford
President, MIT                Executive VP & Dean of Medicine
                              Baylor College of Medicine

Mr. Jay Chabrow               Dr. Paul Chu
President, JMR Associates     Director, Texas Center for
                              Superconductivity
                              University of Houston

Dr. Ed Crawley                Dr. John Fabian
Prof of Aero & Astro          President & CEO
MIT                           ANSER

Maj. Gen. James Fain          Dr. Edward Fort
Deputy Chief of Staff for     Chancellor
Requirements; Headquarters    North Carolina AT&T
USAF Materials Command        State University

Dr. Mary Good                 Mr. Frederick Hauck
Senior VP of Technology       President, International Technical
Allied Signal, Inc.           Underwriters

Dr. Lou Lanzerotti            Mr. William Lilly
Chair, Space Sciences         National Academy of Public
Board, National Research      Administration
Council

Mr. Duane McRuer              Dr. Brad Parkinson
President Systems Technology  Prof of Astro & Aero
                              Stanford University

Dr. Robert Seamans            Dr. Lee Silver
Former NASA Deputy Admin.     W.M. Keck Foundation Professor
                              for Resource Geology
                              California Institute of
                              Technology

Hello everybody !

If you are using PIXAR'S RenderMan 3D scene description language for creating 3D worlds, please, help me. 

I'm using RenderMan library on my NeXT but there is no documentation about NeXTSTEP version of RenderMan available. I can create very complicated scenes and render them using surface shaders, 
but I can not bring them to life by applying shadows and reflections.

As far as I understand I have to define environmental and shadows maps to produce reflections and shadows, but I do not know how to use them.

Any advises or simple RIB or C examples will be appreciated.
Thanks in advance...

Christian:  washed in the blood of the lamb.
Mithraist:  washed in the blood of the bull.

If anyone in .netland is in the process of devising a new religion,
do not use the lamb or the bull, because they have already been
reserved.  Please choose another animal, preferably one not
on the Endangered Species List.  

I saw this subject and all I could think of was a parade at Wrigley Field
in Chicago.

Or maybe it's just me. 

:)

-- 
Marc Cooper - Graphics Programmer - Sverdrup Tech.| "As a child, I WAS an 
fsmarc@lerc.nasa.gov                              |       imaginary playmate."
NASA Lewis Research Center  MS 5-11               |                        
21000 Brookpark Dr.                               | Tom Robbins
Cleveland, OH  44135               (216) 433-8898 | Even Cowgirls Get the Blues

Does anyone know of any good shareware animation or paint software for an SGI
 machine?  I've exhausted everyplace on the net I can find and still don't hava
 a nice piece of software.

Thanks alot!

Chad

A related question (which I haven't given that much serious thought 
to): at what lattitude is the average length of the day (averaged 
over the whole year) maximized? Is this function a constant=
12 hours? Is it truly symmetric about the equator? Or is
there some discrepancy due to the fact that the orbit is elliptic
(or maybe the difference is enough to change the temperature and
make the seasons in the southern hemisphere more bitter, but
is far too small to make a sizeable difference in daylight
hours)?

I want to know where to move.

#Rick Anderson replied to my letter with...
#
#ra> In article <C5ELp2.L0C@acsu.buffalo.edu>,
#ra>

(...)

# Just briefly, on something that you mentioned in passing. You refer to
# differing interpretations of "create," and say that many Christians may
# not agree. So what? That is really irrelevant. We do not base our faith
# on how many people think one way or another, do we? The bottom line is
# truth, regardless of popularity of opinions.

It may be "irrelevant" to you and *your* personal beliefs (or should I say
"bias"?), but it is relevant to me and many others.  You're right, "the
bottom line IS truth," independant from you or anyone else.  Since you
proclaim "truths" as a self-proclaimed appointee, may I ask you by what
authority you do this?  Because "it says so in the Bible?"  --Does the
Bible "say so," or is it YOU, or someone else, who interprets whether a
scripture or doctrine conforms to your particular liking or "disapproval"?

Excuse moi, but your line of "truths" haven't moved me one bit to persuade
me that my beliefs are erroneous.  Of all the "preachers" of "truth" on
this net, you have struck me as a self-righteous member of the wrecking
crew, with no positive message to me or other latter-day saints whatsoever.
BTW, this entire discussion reminds me a lot of the things said by Jesus
to the pharisees: "ye hypocrite(s) . . . ye preach about me with your lips,
but your hearts are far removed from me..."

# Also, I find it rather strange that in trying to persuade that created
# and eternally existent are equivalent, you say "granted the Mormon
# belief..." You can't grant your conclusion and then expect the point to
# have been addressed. In order to reply to the issue, you have to address
# and answer the point that was raised, and not just jump to the
# conclusion that you grant.

Sophistry.  Look who's talking: "jumping to conclusions?"  You wouldn't do
that yourself, right?  All YOU address is your own convictions, regardless
whether we come up with any Biblical scriptures which supports our points
of view, because you reject such interpretations without any consideration
whatsoever.

#
# The Bible states that Lucifer was created.  The Bible states that Jesus
# is the creator of all. The contradiction that we have is that the LDS
# belief is that Jesus and Lucifer were the same.

A beautiful example of disinformation and a deliberate misrepresentation
of lds doctrine.  The former KGB would have loved to employ you.
Jesus and lucifer are not "the same," silly, and you know it.

(...)

# The Mormon belief is that all are children of God. Literally. There is
# nothing symbolic about it. This however, contradicts what the Bible
# says. The Bible teaches that not everyone is a child of God:

Correction: it may contradict would YOU think the Bible says.  The Bible
indeed does teach that not all are children of God in the sense that they
"belong to" or follow God in His footsteps.  Satan and his followers have
rebelled against God, and are not "children (=followers/redeemed) of God,"
but it doesn't mean that they were not once created by God, but chose to
separate themselves from those who chose to follow God and His plan of
salvation.

#
#        The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the
#        kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked "one";
#        (Matthew 13:38)

kingdom are those who have remained valiant in their testimony of Jesus
(and have shown "works of repentance, etc.), and the children of the
wicked one are those who rebelled against God and the lamb.  The issue
of satan's spirit-offspring (and those who followed him) has not been
addressed in this and other verses you copied from your Bible.  You
purposefully obscured the subject by swamping your "right" with non-
related scriptures.

(...lots of nice scriptures deleted (NOT Robert W. copyrighted) though...)

#ra> > We are told that, "And this is life eternal, that they might know
#ra> > thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
#ra> > (John 17:3). Life eternal is to know the only true God. Yet the
#ra> > doctrines of the LDS that I have mentioned portray a vastly
#ra> > different Jesus, a Jesus that cannot be reconciled with the Jesus of
#ra> > the Bible. They are so far removed from each other that to proclaim

Correction: "my" Jesus is indeed different than your Jesus, and CAN be
reconciled with the Jesus in the Bible.  --Not your interpretation of Him,
I concur, but I honestly couldn't care less.

#ra> > one as being true denies the other from being true. According to the
#ra> > Bible, eternal life is dependent on knowing the only true God, and
#ra> > not the construct of imagination.

In this single posting of yours, I've seen more "constructs of imagination"
than in all of the pro-lds mails combined I have read so far in this news
group.  First get your lds-facts straight before you dare preaching to us
about "the only true God," whom you interpret according to your own likes
and dislikes, but whose image I cannot reconcile with what I know about
Him myself.  I guess your grandiose self-image does not allow for other
faiths, believing in the divinity of Jesus Christ, but in a different
way or fashion than your own.  Not that it really matters, the mission
and progress of the lds church will go on, boldly and nobly, and no mob
or opponent can stop the work from progressing, until it has visited
every continent, swept every clime, and sounded in every ear.

#  This is really a red herring. It doesn't address any issue raised, but
#  rather, it seeks to obfuscate. The fact that some groups try to read
#  something into the Bible, doesn't change what the Bible teaches.

Sigh.  "What the Bible teaches"?  Or: "what the bible teaches according to
Robert Weiss and co.?"  I respect the former, I reject the latter without
the remotest feeling that I have rejected Jesus.  On the contrary.  And by
the way, I do respect your interpretations of the Bible, I even grant you
being a Christian (following your own image of Him), as much as I am a
Christian (following my own image of Him in my heart).

(...)

#  Most of the other replies have instead hop-scotched to the issue of
#  Bruce McConkie and whether his views were 'official doctrine.' I don't
#  think that it matters if McConkie's views were canon. That is not the
#  issue.  Were McConkie's writings indicative of Mormon belief on this
#  subject is the real issue. The indication from Rick is that they may
#  certainly be.

The issue is, of course, that you love to use anything to either mis-
represent or ridicule the lds church.  The issue of "official doctrine"
is obviously very important.  McConkie's views have been controversial
(e.g. "The Seven Deadly Heresies" has made me a heretic!  ;-) at best,
or erroneous at worst ("blacks not to receive the priesthood in this
dispensation").  I respect him as someone who has made his valuable
contribution to the church, but I personally do NOT rely on his personal
interpretations (his book "Mormon Doctrine" is oftentimes referred to
as "McConkie's Bible" in mormon circles) on mormon doctrine.  I rather
look to official (doctrinal) sources, and... to Hugh Nibley's books!
(The last comment is an lds-insider reference.)  Summarizing: McConkie
was a wise man who contributed undoubtedly far more to the kingdom of
God than I have, but whose views are by no means dogma or accepted
doctrine, some of it clearly belongs to personal interpretation and
speculation.  But having said this, I find McConkie (even in his most
biased and speculative moments) far more thought-provoking than the
trash coming from your proverbial pen.  I'm somewhat appalled that I have
allowed myself to sink as low as you in this posting...

=============================
Robert Weiss
psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu

True.  At first, the news media seemed entranced by all the new gizmos
the military was using, not to mention the taped video transmissions from
the missiles as they zeroed in on their targets.  But later, and especially
after the bunker full of civilians was hit, they changed their tone.  It
seemed to me that they didn't have the stomach for the reality of war,
that innocent people really do die and are maimed in warfare.  It's like
they were only pro-Gulf-War as long as it was "nice and clean" (smart
missiles dropping in on military HQs), but not when pictures of dead,
dying, and maimed civilians started cropping up.  What naive hypocrites!

[ discussion about blanket-bombing and A-bombs deleted.]
                            ^^^^^^^^^

I should have said here "militarily justified".  It seems from your
comments below that you understood this as meaning "morally justified".
I apologize.

I have often wondered about this.  I've always thought that the first bomb
should have been dropped on Japan's island fortress of Truk.  A good,
inpenatrable military target.  The second bomb could've been held back
for use on an industrial center if need be.  But I digress.

Yes, I have heard that we found evidence (after the war, BTW) that Japan
was seriously considering surrender after the first bomb.  Unfortunately,
the military junta won out over the moderates and rejected the US's
ulimatum.  Therefore the second bomb was dropped.  Most unfortunate, IMO.

I don't regret the fact that sometimes military decisions have to be made
which affect the lives of innocent people.  But I do regret the 
circumstances which make those decisions necessary, and I regret the
suffering caused by those decisions.  

[...]

Actually, it was the fact that both situations existed that prompted US
and allied action.  If some back-water country took over some other
back-water country, we probably wouldn't intervene.  Not that we don't
care, but we can't be the world's policman.  Or if a coup had occured
in Kuwait (instead of an invasion), then we still wouldn't have acted
because there would not have been the imminent danger perceived to
Saudi Arabia.  But the combination of the two, an unprovoked invasion
by a genocidal tyrant AND the potential danger to the West's oil 
interests, caused us to take action.

[...]

I'm not setting up a strawman at all.  If you want to argue against the
war, then the only logical alternative was to allow Hussein to keep
Kuwait.  Diplomatic alternatives, including sanctions, were ineffective.

Well, in a sense, yes.  They probably had no idea of what end Hitler
would lead their nation to.

They suffered along with the rest.  Why does this bother you so much?
The world is full of evil, and circumstances are not perfect.  Many
innocents suffer due to the wrongful actions of others.  It it regretable,
but that's The-Way-It-Is.  There are no perfect solutions.

[...]

Probably because we're not the saviors of the world.  We can't police each
and every country that decides to self-destruct or invade another.  Nor
are we in a strategic position to get relief to Tibet, East Timor, or
some other places.

Tell me how we could stop them and I'll support it.  I, for one, do not
agree with the present US policy of "sucking up to them" as you put it.
I agree that it is deplorable.

Are they?  Or are they supposed to reflect the population of the locale
where the trial is held?  (Normally this is where the crime is committed
unless one party or the other can convince the judge a change of venue
is in order.)  I'm not an expert on California law, or even US law, but
it seems that this is the way the system is set up.  You can criticize
the system, but let's not have unfounded allegations of racial 
prejudice thrown around.

No, not at all.  The point is that the fact that there were no blacks
on the first jury and that Rodney King is black is totally irrelevant.

Germans, perhaps.  "Peers" doesn't mean "those who do the same thing",
like having murderers judge murderers.  It means "having people from
the same station in life", presumably because they are in a better
position to understand the defendent's motivation(s).

OK, granted.  However, you are using this reasoning as part of *your*
logical argument in this discussion.  This is not a court of law.

The media is not totally monolithic.  Even though there is a prevailing
liberal bias, programs such as the MacNeil-Lehrer News Hour try to give
a balanced and fair reporting of the news.  There are even conservative
sources out there if you know where to look.  (Hurrah for Rush!)

BTW, I never used the word "conspiracy".  I don't accept (without *far*
more evidence) theories that there is some all-pervading liberal
conspiracy attempting to take over all news sources.

Hardly.  I didn't say that it's a Good Thing [tm] to kill innocent people
if the end is just.  Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world and
there are no perfect solutions.  If one is going to  resist tyranny, then
innocent people on both sides are going to suffer and die.  I didn't say
it is OK -- it is unfortunate, but sometimes necessary.

I would agree that it was evil in the sense that it caused much pain
and suffering.  I'm not so sure that it was unnecessary as you say.  That
conclusion can only be arrived at by evaluating all the factors involved.
And perhaps it *was* unnecessary as (let's say) we now know.  That doesn't
mean that those who had to make the decision to bomb didn't see it as
being necessary.  Rarely can one have full known of the consequences of
an action before making a decision.  At the time it may have seemed
necessary enough to go ahead with it.

But don't assume that I feel the bombing was *morally* justified -- I
don't!  I just don't condemn those who had to make a difficult
decision under difficult circumstances.

You certainly are not in such a position if you are a moral relativist.
I, as an absolutist, am in a position to judge, but I defer judgment.

Wrong.  They were neither moral then nor now.  They seemed necessary to
those making the decisions to bring a quick end to the war.  I simply
refuse to condemn them for their decision.

One day I will stand before Jesus and give account of every word and action;
even this discourse in this forum.  I understand the full ramifications of
that, and I am prepared to do so.  I don't believe that you can make the
same claim.

And BTW, the reason I brought up the blanket-bombing in Germany was
because you were bemoaning the Iraqi civilian casualties as being 
"so deplorable".  Yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing
wasn't accurate enough to hit industrial/military targets in a
decisive way by any other method at that time.  But in the Gulf War,
precision bombing was the norm.  So the point was, why make a big
stink about the relatively few civilian casualties that resulted
*in spite of* precision bombing, when so many more civilians
(proportionately and quantitatively) died under the blanket bombing
in WW2?  Even with precision bombing, mistakes happen and some
civilians suffer.  But less civilians suffered in this war than
any other iany other in history!  Many Iraqi civilians went about their lives
with minimal interference from the allied air raids.  The stories
of "hundreds of thousands" of Iraqi civilian dead is just plain bunk.
Yes, bunk.  The US lost 230,000 servicemen in WW2 over four years
and the majority of them were directly involved in fighting!  But 
we are expected to swallow that "hundreds of thousands" of 
*civilian* Iraqis died in a war lasting about 2 months!  And with 
the Allies using the most precise bombs ever created at that!  
What hogwash.  If "hundreds of thousands" of Iraqi civilians died, 
it was due to actions Hussein took on his own people, not due to 
the Allied bombing.

Regards,

I certainly do use it whenever I have to do TIFF, and it usually works
very well.  That's not my point.  I'm >philosophically< opposed to it
because of its complexity.

This complexity has led to some programs' poor TIFF writers making
some very bizarre files, other programs' inability to load TIFF
images (though they'll save them, of course), and a general
inability to interchange images between different environments
despite the fact they all think they understand TIFF.

As the saying goes, "It's not me I'm worried about- it's all the
abuse of TIFF over the years, and I chalk it all up to the immense (and
unnecessary) complexity of the format.

In the words of the TIFF 5.0 spec, Appendix G, page G-1 (capitalized
emphasis mine):

"The only problem with this sort of success is that TIFF was designed
to be powerful and flexible, at the expense of simplicity.  It takes a
fair amount of effort to handle all the options currently defined in
this specification (PROBABLY NO APPLICATION DOES A COMPLETE JOB),
and that is currently the only way you can be >sure< that you will be
able to import any TIFF image, since there are so many
image-generating applications out there now."

If a program (or worse all applications) can't read >every< TIFF
image, that means there are some it won't- some that I might have to
deal with.  Why would I want my images to be trapped in that format?  I
don't and neither should anyone who agrees with my reasoning- not
that anyone does, of course! :-)

I'm making a customized paint program in DOS and need an algorithm
for reading bitmap files like GIF, PCX, or BMP.  Does anyone have
such an algorithm?  I've tried copying one out of a book for reading
.PCX format but it doesn't work.  I will take an algorithm for any
format that can be created from Windows Paint.  
Thanks!
Toni

Can somebody point out to me where I can find the specs for .GL and .FLI files
found on PC's?

Maddi Hausmann chirps:

That's nice.

You forgot the third equality...whirrr...click...whirrr...see below...

= Maddi "The Mad Sound-O-Geek" Hausmann

...whirrr...click...whirrr

--

You have given that example. It is not lenient. End of argument.
 
And chopping off the hands or heads of people is not lenient either. It
rather appears that you are internalized the claims about the legal system
without checking if they suit the description.
 
And wasn't the argument that it takes five men to rape a woman according
to Islamic law?
 
No, I even believe what I don't like. Can you give better answers than that?
Have you got any evidence for your probably opposite claims?
 
A fact, if memory serves. And most will see the connection between the
primitive machism in the Orient and in Islam.
 
As usually you miss the point. Aids is  neither spread only through sex
nor necessarily spread by having sex. Futher, the point is, a very important
point, the urge for sex is stronger than the fear of AIDS. It is even
stronger than the religious attempts to channel or to forbid sex. The
consequences of suppressing sex are worse than the consequences of Aids.
Please note that the idea that everybody would end up with AIDS when sex
is not controlled is completely counterfactual.
 
It doesn't make a whole lot of difference, actually, since they weren't
building spares of the station hardware anyway.  (Dumb.)  At least this
is only one launch to fail.

930418

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. [Honestly.]
The word of Sin is Restriction. [Would I kid you?]

Does one man's words encompass the majestic vision of thousands
of individuals?  Quoting a man is not the same as quoting the
Order.  Taken out of context, words can be interpreted much
differently than had one applied them within the confines of
their original expression.

I think this is the case regarding Hymenaeus Beta, Frater Superior 
of the Order to which I belong.  When he included that bit
from Merlinus X' he did us all a service.  He showed us the extremes
to which Order members have been known to go in their fervor.
I have little knowledge regarding Reuss' background, but surely
he was an unusual man, and he was an important force in the Order 
for many years.

Yet as people change so do Orders change, and while we look back
so carefully at the dirty laundry of O.T.O. remember that this is
only the surface skim and that many perspectives are now encompassed
which extend beyond any one individual.  I hope to show that there
was and is much room for a difference of opinion within the Order
itself, perhaps by testing the limits myself.

Let us examine this issue a bit more closely....

"In 1895, Karl Kellner (1850-1905), a wealthy Austrian industrialist
and paper chemist, as well as a high-grade Mason, founded the Ordo
Templi Orientis.  Kellner had traveled widely in the East, where he
met three adepts who instructed him specific magical practices.  
Kellner's efforts to develop the Order were later assisted by Franz
Hartmann, Heinrich Klein and Theodore Reuss, who had worked together
prior to joining the O.T.O.  The Order was first proclaimed in 1902
in Reuss's Masonic publication, 'Oriflamme'.  On Kellner's death,
Reuss succeeded him as Outer Head [O.H.O.].  The 'Jubilee' edition of
the 'Oriflamme', published in 1912, announced that the Order taught
secret of sexual magic.
 
"Theodore Reuss was an interesting character.  Born June 28, 1855 in
Augsburg, he entered Masonry in 1876.  He was a singer, journalist and
possibly a spy for the Prussian political police, infiltrating the Socialist
League founded by Karl Marx's daughter and her husband.  Reuss was
later associated with William Wynn Westcott, a leader of the Golden
Dawn, who later introduced him to John Yarker.  Yarker chartered Reuss to
found the Rites of Memphis and Mizraim in Germany.  After several
attempts to concretize various Masonic Rites, Reuss settled on the
development of the O.T.O.

"The Order experienced reasonably steady growth under Reuss' leadership.
For example, he chartered Papus in France, Rudolph Steiner in Berlin
and H. Spencer Lewis in the USA.  In 1912, the historic meeting between
Reuss and Crowley occurred.  Crowley wrote that Reuss came to him and
accused him of revealing Order secrets.  When Crowley looked at it afresh,
the initiated interpretation of sexual magick unfolded itself to him for
the first time.  Reuss appointed Crowley as Supreme and Holy King of all
the English speaking world, and it was this authorization that he invoked
when publishing the material of the Equinox.

"Reuss resigned as Outer Head of the Order in 1922 after suffering a
stroke and named Crowley his successor.  All was well until 1925 when
_The Book of the Law_ was translated into German.  There was a break
in the continuity of the Order.  Manyk members split with the new O.H.O.
over the book, which Crowley was actively promulgating through the Order.
He had earlier revise dthe Order rituals at Reuss's request, deeply
infusing the doctrines of the New Aeon revelation."

_An Introduction to the History of the O.T.O._, by Ad Veritatem IX'

Within _Equinox III:10_, Edited by 
  Hymenaeus Beta, Frater Superior, Rex Summus Sanctissimus,
    Caliph of the United States of America,
      Published by Samuel Weiser, 1990.

There are many possible reasons that our Frater Superior included this
material in _Equinox III:10_.  And this is the real point, is it not?
Why did he wish to publish such things about the history of his own
organization?  Does he represent a dogmatic threat to the principle
of Thelema?  Or is he exercising his True Will and putting forth very
complex pictures with no easy answers?  A picture which leaves room
for very many interpretations.

It is quite easy for me to see, for example, that all of O.T.O. derived
out of the dribble of faltering Masonry, purchased by clever hucksters
with an ounce of courage and some writing ability to aid them.  And I
can take that all the way down to our present Caliph, whose feeble
support of the 'Law of Thelema' is laughable at best.

Would I be thrown out of the Order for speaking in this way?  
Will I?  
I think not.
Why?  Because my Frater will see it as a perspective, an interjection
I am using as an example.  My illustration shows that we may express things
in the context of a larger work and the true significance of this may be
quite difficult to apprehend at first.

So it may be with OTO and Merlinus X'.  Please look O.T.O. more carefully.
I do not support Reuss's words myself, as I am not qualified to assess
them, and I am critical of their pomposity.  If I who am a member of
the Order take such a stand and am allowed to continue doing so, then
what can this say about the health of the Order?  Does it mean that
the Order has 'gone soft' and abandoned its moral principles?  Or
does it mean that it is strong in its ability to let the will of
universal kinship arise on its own, not shackled by some dogmatic
requirement?  How shall we resolve these two possibilities?

I find a high calibre of individual associated with Ordo Templi Orientis.
They are often quite intelligent and sometimes very well versed in arcane
or usual information.  They are quite often artists and geniuses.  
Having met some 20 longstanding members in the SF Bay Area (many who are or
were very heavily involved with the Order), I can vouch for the integrity
of the organization as it stands.

I have sometimes questioned the policy of Hymenaeus Beta.  In these moments 
I followed my intuition, and I've found little to stop me from requesting
a Second initiation from a different O.T.O. body.  I'm happily participating
in social groups (Feasts or Initiations) and have come to know the Gnostic
Mass well enough for my tastes.
 
This doesn't make me an authority on Order politics and explanations, however.
I can only hypothesize and relay to you what I understand based on my
limited contact with other members.

I urge you not to take the words of Merlinus X too far.  There are many
ways to interpret words, and many people who have become involved with
the Order feel very strongly about the sanctity of personal freedom
and the preservation of individual vision.

I welcome other comment on this issue and will be writing more in response
to other posts in this thread.

Invoke me under my stars.  Love is the law, love under will.

I am I!

Yes, I am very interested in this chip.  Please follow up or email.

There are 2 books published by M&T BOOKS that come with C source code on
floppies.  They are:

Programming In 3 Dimensions, 3-D Graphics, Ray Traycing, and Animation
by: Christopher D. Watkins and Larry Sharp.

Photorealism and Ray Tracing in C
by: Christopher D. Watkins, Stephen B. Coy, and Mark Finlay.

I have the first book and it is a great intro to 3-D, Ray Tracing and
Animation.  Most of the programs are on the disk compiled and ready to run.

I have only glanced at the second book but it also appears to be good.

Hope this helps!
Mark Larsen

markl@hunan.rastek.com

Using the VMODE command, all you need to do is type VMODE VESA at the dos
prompt. VMODE is included with the Speedstar 24.  I have used the VESA mode
for autodesk animator pro.

Does anyone know of a good way (standard PC application/PD utility) to
convert tif/img/tga files into LaserJet III format.  We would also like to
do the same, converting to HPGL (HP plotter) files.

Please email any response.

Is this the correct group?

Thanks in advance.  Michael.

New in this version:  challenge #5, plus an addendum summarizing
Charley's responses to-date..
-----------------------------------------

*** This is a posting made periodically in an attempt to encourage
*** Charley Wingate to address direct challenges to his evidently 
*** specious claims.  I'll continue to re-post periodically until
*** he answers them, publicly indicates that he won't answer them,
*** stops posting to alt.atheism, the alt.atheism community tells
*** me to stop, or I get totally bored.  I apologize for the 
*** somewhat juvenile nature of this approach, but I'm at a loss
*** to figure out another way to crack his intransigence and 
*** seeming intellectual dishonesty.
***
*** This is re-post #3.

Charley,

I can't help but notice that you have still failed to provide answers
to substantive questions that have been raised in response to your
previous posts.  I submit that you don't answer them because you
cannot answer them without running afoul of your own logic, and I once
again challenge you to prove me wrong.  To make the task as easy for
you as possible, I'll present concise re-statements of some of the
questions that you have failed to answer, in the hope that you may
address them one at a time for all to see.

Should you fail to answer again within a reasonable time period, I
will re-post this article, with suitable additions and deletions, at
such time that I notice a post by you on another topic.  I will repeat
this procedure until you either address the outstanding challenges or
you cease to post to this newsgroup.

I would like to apologize in advance if you have answered any of these
questions previously and your answer missed my notice.  If you can be
kind enough to re-post or e-mail such articles, I will be only too
pleased to publicly rescind the challenge in question, and remove it
from this list.

Now, to the questions...

1. After claiming that all atheists fit into neat psychological
patterns that you proposed, then semi-retracting that claim by stating
that you weren't referring to *all* atheists, I asked you to name some
atheists who you feel don't fit your patterns, to show that you indeed
were not referring to all atheists that you are aware of.  You failed
to do so.  Please do so now.

Question: Can you name any a.a posters who do not fit into your
stereotype?

Here is the context for the question:

2. You have taken umbrage to statements to the effect that "senses and
reason are all we have to go by", and when pressed, you have implied
that we have an alternative called revelation.  I have repeatedly
asked you to explain what revelation is and how one can both
experience and interpret revelation without doing so via our senses
and reason.  You failed to do so.  Please do so now.

Question: Can you explain what is revelation and how one can
experience and interpret it without using senses and inherent
reasoning?

then later...

3.  You have stated that all claims to dispassionate analysis made by
a.a posters are unverifiable and fantastical.  I asked you to identify
one such claim that I have made.  You have failed to do so.  Please do
so now.

Question: Have I made any claims at all that are unverifiable and
fantastical?  If so, please repeat them.

4.  First you dismissed claims by atheists that they became atheists as
a result of reason, then later you stated that if one accepted the
"axioms" of reason that one couldn't help but become atheist.  I asked
you to explain the contradiction.  Your only response was a statement
that the question was incoherent, an opinion not shared by others that
I have asked, be they atheist or theist.  You have failed to answer
the question.  Please do so now.

Question: Do you retract your claim that a.a posters have not become
atheists as a result of reason, despite their testimony to that
effect?  If you don't retract that claim, do you retract the
subsequent claim that acceptance of the axioms of reason inevitably
result in atheism?

[First quote]
[Second quote]

5.  First, you claimed that you would (probably) not answer these
Challenges because they contained too much in the way of "included
text" from previous posts.  Later, you implied that you wouldn't
respond because I was putting words in your mouth.  Please clarify
this seeming contradiction.

Question:  Do you prefer to respond to Challenges that include context
from your own posts, or that I paraphrase your positions in order to
avoid "included text"?

As usual, your responses are awaited with anticipation.

--Dave Wood

p.s., For the record, below is a compilation of Charley's responses to
these challenges to date.

3/18/93

3/31/93 (#1)

3/31/93 (#2)

Well, if they were Satanists, or followers of an obscure religion,
then I would be sure that Christians would in unison condemn and 
make this to a show case. But when we are dealing with a fanatical
Revelation preacher that kills ultimately everyone, including the
innocent children, then it seems that we are dealing with Christians 
and christians (note the spelling).
 
And does not this show the dangers with religion -- in order 
word a mind virus that will make mothers capable of letting
their small children burn to ashes while they scream?

Cheers,
Kent

Excerpts from netnews.alt.atheism: 15-Apr-93 Re: thoughts on christians
by Dave Fuller@portal.hq.vi 
I think it'd help if we got a couple good atheists (or even some good,
steadfast agnostics) in some high political offices.  When was the last
time we had an (openly) atheist president?  Have we ever?  (I don't
actually know; these aren't rhetorical questions.)  How 'bout some
Supreme court justices?  

One thing that really ticked me off a while ago was an ad for a news
program on a local station...The promo said something like "Who are
these cults, and why do they prey on the young?"  Ahem.  EVER HEAR OF
BAPTISM AT BIRTH?  If that isn't preying on the young, I don't know what
is...

I used to be (ack, barf) a Catholic, and was even confirmed...Shortly
thereafter I decided it was a load of BS.  My mom, who really insisted
that I continue to go to church, felt it was her duty (!) to bring me up
as a believer!  That was one of the more presumptuous things I've heard
in my life.  I suggested we go talk to the priest, and she agreed.  The
priest was amazingly cool about it...He basically said that if I didn't
believe it, there was no good in forcing it on me.  Actually, I guess he
wasn't amazingly cool about it--His response is what you'd hope for
(indeed, expect) from a human being.  I s'pose I just _didn't_ expect
it...  

I find it absurd that religion exists; Yet, I can also see its
usefulness to people.  Facing up to the fact that you're just going to
be worm food in a few decades, and that there isn't some cosmic purpose
to humanity and the universe, can be pretty difficult for some people. 
Having a readily-available, pre-digested solution to this is pretty
attractive, if you're either a) gullible enough, b) willing to suspend
your reasoning abilities for the piece of mind, or c) have had the stuff
rammed down your throat for as long as you can remember.  Religion in
general provides a nice patch for some human weaknesses; Organized
religion provides a nice way to keep a population under control.  

Blech.

Chris

: There are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread
: that are a little confusing. An atheist is one for whom all things can
: be understood as processes of nature - exclusively.

This definition does not include all atheists (see the FAQ). However,
I (for one) do think there is no need to invoke any divine or
spiritual explanations. 

It makes a big difference to claim that all things can be understood
as natural processes, and to claim that our observations do not
require us to postulate any divine intervention, or anything spiritual,
for that matter. Humans are not omnipotent, and neither is science.
However, science has one advantage theology doesn't: it is self-
correcting, with nature as its judge. 

It is delightful to see how scientific inquiry is revealing a self-
consistent, simple picture of our universe. Science is no longer
a bunch of separate branches, it is one. From particle physics to
psychology. And no aspect of our life, or our universe, is safe
from its stern and stony eye. Not even our consciousness.

 There is no need
: for any recourse to Divnity to describe or explain anything. There is
: no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by
: physics, chemistry, biology, etc.; everything is random, nothing is
: determnined.

Actually, determinism vs. indeterminism is a philosophical question,
and science cannot say whether the whole thing is actually somehow
superdeterministic or not. I think the question does not have
any meaning, as far as individual human beings go. If their apparent
free will is an illusion, it does not appear to be so from their
perspective. Bill, can you say _for sure_ whether you have a free
will or not? 

: This would also have to include human intelligence of course and all
: its products. There is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it
: acquire intelligence, it's just a happy accident.

Maybe. Who are we to tell? It seems intelligence is useful - when
during the history of Earth has _one species_ been able to control
one third of the whole biosphere? This can still be a result of 
numerous happy accidents our genetic machinery blindly replicates
and preserves. Even that machinery can be result of the same
principle - only the systems that can start replicating will
survive, those which don't don't make it. (Recommended reading: t.o)

: For an atheist, no
: event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less
: value than another in any naturalistic sense, and no thought -about-
: an event can have value. 

From whose perspective? I value events and things subjectively, from
my perspective. Nature does not have values, because it does not have
a perspective - values arise from awareness. If I have a subjective
perspective, it is easy to assume that other people also do, and if
I think about what it would it be like in their position, I will
eventually discover the Golden Rule. Morality is not necessarily
a gift from heavens, in fact, it may be a product of evolution.
Perhaps we are aware of ourselves because a sense of identity
is helpful, allows us to play the roles of others and make us respect
others who seem to have identity, too. 

Bill, have you ever read Aristotle? Try his Ethica Nikomakhea (sp.)
for starters.

: How then can an atheist judge value? What is the basis for criticizing
: the values ennumerated in the Bible or the purposes imputed to God? On
: what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned? It
: seems that, in judging the values that motivate others to action, you
: have to have some standard against which conduct is measured, but what
: in nature can serve that purpose? What law of nature can you invoke to
: establish your values.

C.S. Lewis tells us that this argument was the main reason why
he abandoned his atheism and became Christian. The argument is
severely flawed.

Some values, such as the Golden Rule, can have a rational basis. Some
others, like the basic idea of wanting to live, has probably its
roots in the way our brains are wired. Lewis ignored the very real
possiblity that natural selection could also favour altruistic
behaviour, and morality as well. Indeed, as humans evolved better
and better in building and using tools, they also became better
at killing each other. It is a logical necessity that evolution could
only favour those who knew how to use tools, but not against one's
own people.

The Bible reveals quite nicely that the morality of the early Jews
was not beyond this. A simple set of rules to hold the people
together, under one god. Their god did not care much about people
of other nations. 

At the time of the NT, things were quite different - the Jews
were under rule of an _empire_, and could no longer simply ignore
the Gentiles. A new situation required a new morality, and along
with it a new religion was born. (A mutation in a meme pool.)

: Since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event, what
: difference could it possibly make what -anyone- does, religious or
: otherwise, there can be no -meaning- or gradation of value. The only
: way an atheist can object to -any- behaviour is to admit that the
: objection is entirely subjective and that he(she) just doesn't like it
: - that's it. Any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer
: that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries
: no weight in any "absolute" sense.

It looks like you haven't bothered to read philosophy. Whenever there
is an observer, there is a subjective point of view, which may 
value its existence and happiness (even if that were just a result
of some physical event), and other's happiness, too, if the observer
comes to think about it. In an absolutely objective sense, that is,
without any observers or subjects, moral judgments lose their
meaning. 

It is not possible for a value to simply exist without a point of
view. This includes gods, too, their values are only _their_ 
personal judgments, not absolute truths, since such truths
do not exist. 

The fact that most people do not deliberately want to hurt others
is a manifestation of the way we have fought for our existence
by becoming social beings who can think and value others'
existence.

Morality is not property of humans alone - chimps, dolphins and
many other species show great care for each other. Dolphins have
sometimes saved humans from drowning, a good deed indeed. 

: That you don't like what God told people to do says nothing about God
: or God's commands, it says only that there was an electrical event in your
: nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled
: with a pre-existing thought-set to form that reaction. That your
: objections -seem- well founded is due to the way you've been
: conditioned; there is no "truth" content. The whole of your
: intellectual landscape is an illusion, a virtual reality.

The last statement does not logically follow. In fact, there is
every reason to believe our thoughts can model reality very
well, and our senses can convey reliable information. Solipsism
is still a logical possibility, but not a very likely one.

You are continuously mixing two different views: the subjective
point of view (which we all share) and an objective point of view,
_which does not exist_. Any observer or thinker, any personal being,
has its own point of view. It does not matter whether this point
of view is a result of some physical events or not, it does not
cease to be subjective. 

From a non-observers non-point of view, values do not exist. Neither
does pain, or pleasure, or beauty, or love. Such things are 
inherently subjective. 

Once again, if god wants wives to submit to their husbands, or even
to make a leap of faith into the unknown, or wants to punish us if
we don't, I disagree with his morals. I do not think my morals come
from any supreme being - to remove my morals means the same than
to make me a zombie, a machine without a single thought. If god
gave us morality to judge, but I disagree with him, it is not my
fault. He is free to replace my morals. I cannot see what is the
point of giving someone a moral system which disagrees with one's
own and then to get mad at this. 

God must be schizophrenic.

: All of this being so, you have excluded
: yourself from any discussion of values, right, wrong, goood, evil,
: etc. and cannot participate. Your opinion about the Bible can have no
: weight whatsoever.

Neither can the opinion of any god, for that matter. I cannot understand
why a subjective opinion of a thing made of matter is in any way
less credible than an opinion of a thing made of something else.

Bill, take note: Absolute values must be independent of _any_ being,
_including_ gods. If god has a subjective viewpoint, it is his
own point of view, and his morals are his own. 

Petri

Well, I thought it must have been a joke, but I don't get the 
joke in the name. Read it aloud? David MACaloon. David MacALLoon.
David macalOON. I don't geddit.

I gues it is Keesler. The others do not ring the bell but they might be 
involved as well. Sometime ago Keesler was here at Langley teaching 
a course on space debris and, if my memory does not fai,l I think there
was even a reference to a book on the subject.

Fred Rice answered this already in an early posting:
"The problem with your argument is that you do not _know_ who is a _real_
believer and who may be "faking it".  This is something known only by
the person him/herself (and God).  Your assumption that anyone who
_claims_ to be a "believer" _is_ a "believer" is not necessarily true."

In other words it seems that nobody could define who is a true and
false Muslim. We are back to square one, Khomeini and Hussein are 
still innocent and can't be defined as evil or good Islamic 
worshippers.

Cheers,
Kent

Re: Space billboards

Even easier to implement than writing messages on the Moon, once upon
a time a group of space activists I belonged to in Seattle considered
a "Goodyear Blimp in orbit".  The idea was to use a large structure
that could carry an array of lights like the Goodyear Blimp has.
Placed in a low Earth orbit of high inclination, it could eventually
be seen by almost everyone on Earth.  Only our collective disapproval
of cluttering up space with such a thing stopped us from pursuing
it.  It had quite feasible economics, which I will not post here
because I don't want to encourage the idea (if you want to do such
a thing, go figure it out for yourself).

Dani Eder

You'll probably have to set the palette up before you try drawing
in the new colours.

Use the bios interrupt calls to set the r g & b values (in the range
from 0-63 for most cards) for a particular palette colour (in the
range from 0-255 for 256 colour modes).

Then you should be able to draw pixels in those palette values and
the result should be ok.

You might have to do a bit of colourmap compressing if you have
more than 256 unique rgb triplets, for a 256 colour mode.

I don't have to "try reading a bit", Pat.  I *work* as a government
contractor and know what the rules are like.  Yes, they sign some
(damned few -- which is why everyone is always having to go to
Washington to see about next week's funding) multi-year contracts;
they also aren't willing to include sufficient cancellation penalties
when they *do* decide to cut the multi-year contract and not pay on it
(which can happen arbitrarily at any time, no matter what previous
plans were) to make the risk acceptable of something like putting up a
private space station with the government as the expected prime
occupant.

I'd like a source for that statement about "the reason they aren't
cutting defense spending as much as they would like"; I just don't buy
it. The other thing I find a bit 'funny' about your posting, Pat, is
that several other people answered the question pretty much the same
way I did; mine is the one you comment (and incorrectly, I think) on.
I think that says a lot.  You and Tommy should move in together.

-- 

Ideologies also split, giving more to disagree upon, and may also lead
to intolerance.  So do you also oppose all ideologies?

I don't think your argument is an argument against religion at all, but
just points out the weaknesses of human nature.

I would like a reference if you have got one, for this is news to me.

One must approach the Qur'an with intelligence.  Any thinking approach
to the Qur'an cannot but interpret the above verse and others like it
that women and men are spiritual equals.

I think that the above verse does clearly imply that women have
souls.  Does it make any sense for something without a soul to be
forgiven?  Or to have a great reward (understood to be in the
after-life)?  I think the usual answer would be no -- in which case, the
part saying "For them has God prepared forgiveness and a great reward"
says they have souls.  

(If it makes sense to say that things without souls can be forgiven, then 
I have no idea _what_ a soul is.)

As for your saying that the quote above may not be given a high priority
in all interpretations, any thinking approach to the Qur'an has to give
all verses of the Qur'an equal priority.  That is because, according to
Muslim belief, the _whole_ Qur'an is the revelation of God -- in fact,
denying the truth of any part of the Qur'an is sufficient to be
considered a disbeliever in Islam.

Look, any approach to the Qur'an must be done with intelligence and
thought.  It is in this fashion that one can try to understand the
Quran's message.  In a book of finite length, it cannot explicitly
answer every question you want to put to it, but through its teachings
it can guide you.  I think, however, that women are the spiritual equals
of men is clearly and unambiguously implied in the above verse, and that
since women can clearly be "forgiven" and "rewarded" they _must_ have
souls (from the above verse).

Let's try to understand what the Qur'an is trying to teach, rather than
try to see how many ways it can be misinterpreted by ignoring this
passage or that passage.  The misinterpretations of the Qur'an based on
ignoring this verse or that verse are infinite, but the interpretations 
fully consistent are more limited.  Let's try to discuss these
interpretations consistent with the text rather than how people can
ignore this bit or that bit, for that is just showing how people can try
to twist Islam for their own ends -- something I do not deny -- but
provides no reflection on the true teachings of Islam whatsoever.

	The newspaper itself is almost certainly copyrighted in its
entirety.  Newspapers generally employ legal staffs which make sure
they get permission to use a copyrighted image or text.  Did you
do the same?
-- 
-John

In <1qjahh$mrs@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) 

How do we measure truth, beauty, goodness, love, friendship, trust, honesty, 
etc.?  If things have no basis in objective fact then aren't we limited in what
we know to be true?  Can't we say that we can examples or instances of reason,
but cannot measure reason, or is that semantics?

MAC
--

They have a few problems. The biggest technical problem is the need to find
two satellites going to the same rough orbit for a luanch.

They also don't show much interest in commercial launches. There is more
money to be made churning out Titan IV's for the government. After all,
it isn't every day you find a sucker, er, customer who thinks paying
three times the commercial rate for launch services is a good idea!

  Allen

Does anybody know if there are any good 2d-graphics packages
	available for IBM RS/6000 & AIX ? I'm looking for something
	like DEC's GKS or Hewlett-Packards Starbase, both of which
	have reasonably good support for different output devices
	like plotters, terminals, X etc.

	I have tried also xgks from X11 distribution and IBM's implementation
	of Phigs. Both of them work but we require more output devices
	than just X-windows.

	Our salesman at IBM was not very familiar with graphics and
	I am not expecting for any good solutions from there.

		Ari

---

Hi,

Can anybody suggest robust algorithms/code for computing the point of intersection
on n, 2-d lines in a plane. The data has outliers and hence a simple least squares
technique does not seem to provide satifactory results.

Please respond by e-mail and I will post the summary to the newsgroups
if there is sufficient interest.

Thanks,

Raj Talluri
Member Technical Staff
Image Understanding Branch
Texas Instruments
Central Research Labs
Dallas, Texas 75248

I don't feel that I'm preaching. I'm just trying to answer people's 
questions and talking about my religion, my beliefs.
When it comes to what I post, I don't do it with the intent of converting 
anyone.  I don't expect for the atheists in this newsgroup to take what I 
say with a grain of salt if they so wish.
I just state what I beleve, they ask me how I believeit and why and we all 
go on. 
If that's preaching, then I'm soory and I'll get off the soapbox.

.d.
.d.
I just thought of another one, in the Bible, so it's definately not because
of *lack* of religion.  The Book of Esther (which I read the other day for
other reasons) describes the origin of Pur'im, a Jewish celbration of joy
and peace.  The long and short of the story is that 75,000 people were
killed when people were tripping over all of the peacefull solutions 
lying about (you couldn't swing a sacred cow without slammin into a nice,
peaceful solution.)  'Course Joshua and the jawbone of an ass spring to
mind...

I agree with Bobby this far: religion as it is used to kill large numbers
of people is usually not used in the form or manner that it was originally
intended for.

That doesn't reduce the number of deaths directly caused by religion, it is
just a minor observation of the fact that there is almost nothing pure in
the Universe.  The very act of honestly attempting to find true meaning in
religious teaching has many times inspired hatred and led to war.  Many
people have been led by religious leaders more involved in their own
stomache-contentsthan in any absolute truth, and have therefore been driven to
kill by their leaders.

The point is that there are many things involved in religion that often
lead to war.  Whether these things are a part of religion, an unpleasant
side effect or (as Bobby would have it) the result of people switching
between Religion and Atheism spontaneously, the results are the same.  

@Religious groups have long been involved in the majority of the bloodiest
parts of Man's history.@

Atheists, on the other hand (preen,preen) are typically not an ideological
social caste, nor are they driven to organize and spread their beliefs.
The overuse of Nazism and Stalinism just show how true this is:  Two groups
with very clear and specific ideologies using religious persecution to
further their means.  Anyone who cannot see the obvious - namely that these
were groups founded for reasons *entirely* their own, who used religious
persecution not because of any belief system but because it made them more
powerfull - is trying too hard.  Basically, Bobby uses these examples
because there are so few wars that were *not* *specifically* fought over
religion that he does not have many choices.

Well, I'm off to Key West where the only flames are heating the bottom of
little silver butter-dishes.

-ciao

It has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear
shaped than globular/spherical.  Does anyone make a "globe" that is accurate
as to actual shape, landmass configuration/Long/Lat lines etc.?

--

bill@xpresso.UUCP                   (Bill Vance),             Bothell, WA
rwing!xpresso!bill

: 	Nice cop out bill.

I'm sure you're right, but I have no idea to what you refer. Would you
mind explaining how I copped out?

Can somebody reconcile the apparent contradiction between [1] and [2]?

I have a small program to extract a 640x480 image from a vga 16 color screen,
and store that image in a TIFF file.  I need to insert the image into a
sales brochure, which I then need printed in 4 color.  On a mac, I would
use Photoshop to separate the image into 5 EPS files, and then pull it into
quark express, then get it printed to film on a lintronix at a service bureau.

However, I don't have a mac, but I do have windows.  What would I need to 
do this type of operation in the windows 3.1 environment?  Are there any
separation programs available on the net?  Is there a good page layout program
that I should look into?

	The "System" refered to a "moral system". You havn't shown any 
reason that chimps "must" have a moral system. 
	Except if you would like to redefine everything.

--- 

Hi,
  
  I'm writing a science fiction script and I'm looking for some
answers to questions regarding the Moon and Earth. My starting point
is an impossible situation.  [I checked with a professor at berkeley
and his response was a VERY helpful "can't happen".] If you enjoy
playing with unusual ideas and are willing answer some questions
please contact me via e-mail (jennise@dgi.com).

  I get extremely annoyed when screen and tele-plays ignore basic
facts about computers that I'm determined to be as scientifically
accurate as I can.

  Sorry for being vague, but I'd like to protect my idea as much as I
can until I'm ready to sell it (hopefully).

They are 3D object files for CAD 3D 2.0, a program written by Tom Hudson
for the Atari ST computers.  Don't know much more about them except that
they are stored with the points first, then the surfaces are next, and are
made by listing 3 point numbers that make up the triangle surface. Then
there's a header that describes coloring, lighting, etc.  Don't know much
more than this, hope this helps.

Uh oh.  This looks a bit too much like Bobby's "Atheism Is False" stuff.  Are
we really going to have to go through this again?  Maybe the universe is
cyclical!  :)  :(

: Logic alert -  argument from incredulity.  Just because it is hard for you 
: to believe this doesn't mean that it isn't true.  Liars can be very pursuasive
: just look at Koresh that you yourself cite.

This is whole basis of a great many here rejecting the Christian
account of things. In the words of St. Madalyn Murrey-O'Hair, "Face it
folks, it's just silly ...". Why is it okay to disbelieve because of
your incredulity if you admit that it's a fallacy?

There were many injustices in the middle ages.  And this is truely sad.
I would hate to see a day when churches put people to death or torchured
them for practicing homosexuality, or any other crime.  The church is not
called to take over the governments of the world.  It may be that homosexuals
treated cruelly today, but that does not mean that we should teach 
Christians to practice homosexual immorality.  Do you think that we should
also teach Christians to practice divination and channelling because
the witches in the middle ages were persecuted.

And you accuse me of judging?  When did you look into my heart and see
if I have love.  I have been writing that we should not teach Christians
to practice homosexual immorality, and you pretend to have divine knowledge
to look into my heart.  I can't say that I love homosexuals as I should-
I can't say that I love my neighbor as I should either.  I don't know
very many homosexuals as it is.  

But Jesus loves homosexuals, just as He loves everyone else.  If His love
were conditional, I not know Him at all.  Yes.  We should show love to 
homosexuals, but it is not love to encourage brothers in the church to 
stumble and continue in their sin.  That is a very damaging and dangerous 
thing.

That is slander.   I could just as easily say  that NAMBLA has been able
to implement legislation to make child molesting easier because of
the tearing down of societies morality due to people accepting homosexuality
as normal, and that this is what you are embracing.  I do believe
that homosexual sex is immoral, that does not mean I endorse using violence
against them.  There is a problem of hatred in the church.  But there
is also the problem of what has been called "unsanctified mercy."
Many in the conservative churches have seen the moral breakdown in 
this country and the storm on the horizon, and have gotten militant in 
the flesh.  This is truely sad.  Yet others in other churches have 
embraced immorality in society, and have pointed to the carnality in the
conservative churches to justify their actions.  

Certainly we should not use a bullwhip to drive people from Jesus.
But we shouldn't water down the gospel to draw people in.  Jesus didn't
go out of His way to show only what might be considered positive aspects
to draw people in.  He told one man to sell all He had.  He told
another not to say good bye to His family.  His words were hard at times.
We should present people with the cost of the tower before we allow them
to begin construction.  many people have already been innoculated to the
gospel.

Link Hudson.

Have you informed your wife of this prioritization?

This board will have

Thou hast used my name in vain!  I never coerce.  Ridicule, maybe, but
never coerce.  Please take responsibility for your actions.

(deletia)

Actually, the "ether" stuff sounded a fair bit like a bizzare,
qualitative corruption of general relativity.  nothing to do with
the old-fashioned, ether, though.  maybe somebody could loan him
a GR text at a low level.

didn't get much further than that, tho.... whew.

The real problem w/ the Stealth from what I've heard is that Diamond won't
tell anyone how to program their proprietary clock stuff, so X under Linux
and 386BSD won't run....

DFW was designed with the STS in mind (which really mean very little).  Much of
their early PR material had scenes with a shuttle landing and two or three
others pulled up to gates.  I guess they were trying to stress how advanced the
airport was.

For Dallas types:  Imagine the fit Grapevine and Irving would be having if the
shuttle WAS landing at DFW. (For the rest, they are currently having some power
struggles between the airport and surrounding cities).

+At one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk 
+(Alexei Leonov ?) was a staged fake.
+
+Has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged ?
+
+Was this claim perhaps another fevered Cold War hallucination ?

I, for one, would be an avid reader of a sci.space.ussr.what.really.
happened.

Archive-name: atheism/resources
Alt-atheism-archive-name: resources
Last-modified: 11 December 1992
Version: 1.0

                              Atheist Resources

                      Addresses of Atheist Organizations

                                     USA

FREEDOM FROM RELIGION FOUNDATION

Darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are
available from the Freedom From Religion Foundation in the US.

Write to:  FFRF, P.O. Box 750, Madison, WI 53701.
Telephone: (608) 256-8900

EVOLUTION DESIGNS

Evolution Designs sell the "Darwin fish".  It's a fish symbol, like the ones
Christians stick on their cars, but with feet and the word "Darwin" written
inside.  The deluxe moulded 3D plastic fish is $4.95 postpaid in the US.

Write to:  Evolution Designs, 7119 Laurel Canyon #4, North Hollywood,
           CA 91605.

People in the San Francisco Bay area can get Darwin Fish from Lynn Gold --
try mailing <figmo@netcom.com>.  For net people who go to Lynn directly, the
price is $4.95 per fish.

AMERICAN ATHEIST PRESS

AAP publish various atheist books -- critiques of the Bible, lists of
Biblical contradictions, and so on.  One such book is:

"The Bible Handbook" by W.P. Ball and G.W. Foote.  American Atheist Press.
372 pp.  ISBN 0-910309-26-4, 2nd edition, 1986.  Bible contradictions,
absurdities, atrocities, immoralities... contains Ball, Foote: "The Bible
Contradicts Itself", AAP.  Based on the King James version of the Bible.

Write to:  American Atheist Press, P.O. Box 140195, Austin, TX 78714-0195.
      or:  7215 Cameron Road, Austin, TX 78752-2973.
Telephone: (512) 458-1244
Fax:       (512) 467-9525

PROMETHEUS BOOKS

Sell books including Haught's "Holy Horrors" (see below).

Write to:  700 East Amherst Street, Buffalo, New York 14215.
Telephone: (716) 837-2475.

An alternate address (which may be newer or older) is:
Prometheus Books, 59 Glenn Drive, Buffalo, NY 14228-2197.

AFRICAN-AMERICANS FOR HUMANISM

An organization promoting black secular humanism and uncovering the history of
black freethought.  They publish a quarterly newsletter, AAH EXAMINER.

Write to:  Norm R. Allen, Jr., African Americans for Humanism, P.O. Box 664,
           Buffalo, NY 14226.

                                United Kingdom

Rationalist Press Association          National Secular Society
88 Islington High Street               702 Holloway Road
London N1 8EW                          London N19 3NL
071 226 7251                           071 272 1266

British Humanist Association           South Place Ethical Society
14 Lamb's Conduit Passage              Conway Hall
London WC1R 4RH                        Red Lion Square
071 430 0908                           London WC1R 4RL
fax 071 430 1271                       071 831 7723

The National Secular Society publish "The Freethinker", a monthly magazine
founded in 1881.

                                   Germany

IBKA e.V.
Internationaler Bund der Konfessionslosen und Atheisten
Postfach 880, D-1000 Berlin 41. Germany.

IBKA publish a journal:
MIZ. (Materialien und Informationen zur Zeit. Politisches
Journal der Konfessionslosesn und Atheisten. Hrsg. IBKA e.V.)
MIZ-Vertrieb, Postfach 880, D-1000 Berlin 41. Germany.

For atheist books, write to:

IBDK, Internationaler B"ucherdienst der Konfessionslosen
Postfach 3005, D-3000 Hannover 1. Germany.
Telephone: 0511/211216

                               Books -- Fiction

THOMAS M. DISCH

"The Santa Claus Compromise"
Short story.  The ultimate proof that Santa exists.  All characters and 
events are fictitious.  Any similarity to living or dead gods -- uh, well...

WALTER M. MILLER, JR

"A Canticle for Leibowitz"
One gem in this post atomic doomsday novel is the monks who spent their lives
copying blueprints from "Saint Leibowitz", filling the sheets of paper with
ink and leaving white lines and letters.

EDGAR PANGBORN

"Davy"
Post atomic doomsday novel set in clerical states.  The church, for example,
forbids that anyone "produce, describe or use any substance containing...
atoms". 

PHILIP K. DICK

Philip K. Dick Dick wrote many philosophical and thought-provoking short 
stories and novels.  His stories are bizarre at times, but very approachable.
He wrote mainly SF, but he wrote about people, truth and religion rather than
technology.  Although he often believed that he had met some sort of God, he
remained sceptical.  Amongst his novels, the following are of some relevance:

"Galactic Pot-Healer"
A fallible alien deity summons a group of Earth craftsmen and women to a
remote planet to raise a giant cathedral from beneath the oceans.  When the
deity begins to demand faith from the earthers, pot-healer Joe Fernwright is
unable to comply.  A polished, ironic and amusing novel.

"A Maze of Death"
Noteworthy for its description of a technology-based religion.

"VALIS"
The schizophrenic hero searches for the hidden mysteries of Gnostic
Christianity after reality is fired into his brain by a pink laser beam of
unknown but possibly divine origin.  He is accompanied by his dogmatic and
dismissively atheist friend and assorted other odd characters.

"The Divine Invasion"
God invades Earth by making a young woman pregnant as she returns from
another star system.  Unfortunately she is terminally ill, and must be
assisted by a dead man whose brain is wired to 24-hour easy listening music.

MARGARET ATWOOD

"The Handmaid's Tale"
A story based on the premise that the US Congress is mysteriously
assassinated, and fundamentalists quickly take charge of the nation to set it
"right" again.  The book is the diary of a woman's life as she tries to live
under the new Christian theocracy.  Women's right to own property is revoked,
and their bank accounts are closed; sinful luxuries are outlawed, and the
radio is only used for readings from the Bible.  Crimes are punished
retroactively: doctors who performed legal abortions in the "old world" are
hunted down and hanged.  Atwood's writing style is difficult to get used to
at first, but the tale grows more and more chilling as it goes on.

VARIOUS AUTHORS

"The Bible"
This somewhat dull and rambling work has often been criticized.  However, it
is probably worth reading, if only so that you'll know what all the fuss is
about.  It exists in many different versions, so make sure you get the one
true version.

                             Books -- Non-fiction

PETER DE ROSA

"Vicars of Christ", Bantam Press, 1988
Although de Rosa seems to be Christian or even Catholic this is a very
enlighting history of papal immoralities, adulteries, fallacies etc.
(German translation: "Gottes erste Diener. Die dunkle Seite des Papsttums",
Droemer-Knaur, 1989)

MICHAEL MARTIN

"Atheism: A Philosophical Justification", Temple University Press,
 Philadelphia, USA.
A detailed and scholarly justification of atheism.  Contains an outstanding
appendix defining terminology and usage in this (necessarily) tendentious
area.  Argues both for "negative atheism" (i.e. the "non-belief in the
existence of god(s)") and also for "positive atheism" ("the belief in the
non-existence of god(s)").  Includes great refutations of the most
challenging arguments for god; particular attention is paid to refuting
contempory theists such as Platinga and Swinburne.
541 pages. ISBN 0-87722-642-3 (hardcover; paperback also available)

"The Case Against Christianity", Temple University Press
A comprehensive critique of Christianity, in which he considers
the best contemporary defences of Christianity and (ultimately)
demonstrates that they are unsupportable and/or incoherent.
273 pages. ISBN 0-87722-767-5

JAMES TURNER

"Without God, Without Creed", The Johns Hopkins University Press, Baltimore,
 MD, USA
Subtitled "The Origins of Unbelief in America".  Examines the way in which
unbelief (whether agnostic or atheistic)  became a mainstream alternative
world-view.  Focusses on the period 1770-1900, and while considering France
and Britain the emphasis is on American, and particularly New England
developments.  "Neither a religious history of secularization or atheism,
Without God, Without Creed is, rather, the intellectual history of the fate
of a single idea, the belief that God exists." 
316 pages. ISBN (hardcover) 0-8018-2494-X (paper) 0-8018-3407-4

GEORGE SELDES (Editor)

"The great thoughts", Ballantine Books, New York, USA
A "dictionary of quotations" of a different kind, concentrating on statements
and writings which, explicitly or implicitly, present the person's philosophy
and world-view.  Includes obscure (and often suppressed) opinions from many
people.  For some popular observations, traces the way in which various
people expressed and twisted the idea over the centuries.  Quite a number of
the quotations are derived from Cardiff's "What Great Men Think of Religion"
and Noyes' "Views of Religion".
490 pages. ISBN (paper) 0-345-29887-X.

RICHARD SWINBURNE

"The Existence of God (Revised Edition)", Clarendon Paperbacks, Oxford
This book is the second volume in a trilogy that began with "The Coherence of
Theism" (1977) and was concluded with "Faith and Reason" (1981).  In this
work, Swinburne attempts to construct a series of inductive arguments for the
existence of God.  His arguments, which are somewhat tendentious and rely
upon the imputation of late 20th century western Christian values and
aesthetics to a God which is supposedly as simple as can be conceived, were
decisively rejected in Mackie's "The Miracle of Theism".  In the revised
edition of "The Existence of God", Swinburne includes an Appendix in which he
makes a somewhat incoherent attempt to rebut Mackie.

J. L. MACKIE

"The Miracle of Theism", Oxford
This (posthumous) volume contains a comprehensive review of the principal
arguments for and against the existence of God.  It ranges from the classical
philosophical positions of Descartes, Anselm, Berkeley, Hume et al, through
the moral arguments of Newman, Kant and Sidgwick, to the recent restatements
of the classical theses by Plantinga and Swinburne.  It also addresses those
positions which push the concept of God beyond the realm of the rational,
such as those of Kierkegaard, Kung and Philips, as well as "replacements for
God" such as Lelie's axiarchism.  The book is a delight to read - less
formalistic and better written than Martin's works, and refreshingly direct
when compared with the hand-waving of Swinburne.

JAMES A. HAUGHT

"Holy Horrors: An Illustrated History of Religious Murder and Madness",
 Prometheus Books
Looks at religious persecution from ancient times to the present day -- and
not only by Christians.
Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 89-64079. 1990.

NORM R. ALLEN, JR.

"African American Humanism: an Anthology"
See the listing for African Americans for Humanism above.

GORDON STEIN

"An Anthology of Atheism and Rationalism", Prometheus Books
An anthology covering a wide range of subjects, including 'The Devil, Evil
and Morality' and 'The History of Freethought'.  Comprehensive bibliography.

EDMUND D. COHEN

"The Mind of The Bible-Believer", Prometheus Books
A study of why people become Christian fundamentalists, and what effect it
has on them.

                                Net Resources

There's a small mail-based archive server at mantis.co.uk which carries
archives of old alt.atheism.moderated articles and assorted other files.  For
more information, send mail to archive-server@mantis.co.uk saying

   help
   send atheism/index

and it will mail back a reply.

[...]

Wait a minute.  I thought you said that Allah (I presume Allah == God) was unknowable,
and yet here you are claiming to know a very concrete fact about him.

You say that God does not have a "face".  Doesn't the bible say that God has hindparts?

How do you suggest I decide which (if any) of you is right?  Or are you both right?
God has hindparts but no face?  Or does your use of quotation marks:

	God does not have a "face".

allow you to interpret this to mean whatever you like?

:     Help!! I need code/package/whatever to take 3-D data and turn it into
: a wireframe surface with hidden lines removed. I'm using a DOS machine, and
: the code can be in ANSI C or C++, ANSI Fortran or Basic. The data I'm using
: forms a rectangular grid.
:    Please post your replies to the net so that others may benefit. IMHO, this
: is a general interest question.
:    Thank you!!!!!!

}>}(a) out of context;
}>Must have missed when you said this about these other "promises of god" that we keep
}>getting subjected to.  Could you please explain why I am wrong and they are OK?
}>Or an acknowledgement of public hypocrisy. Both or neither.
}
}So, according to you, Jim, the only way to criticize one person for
}taking a quote out of context, without being a hypocrite, is to post a
}response to *every* person on t.r.m who takes a quote out of context?

Did I either ask or assert that?  Or is this your misaimed telepathy at work again?

}>BTW to David Josli:  I'm still waiting for either your public
}>acknowledgement of your
}>telepathy and precognition (are you a witch?) or an appology and retraction.
}
}Can you wait without whining? To pass the time, maybe you should go
}back and read the portions of my article that you so conveniently
}deleted in your reply.  You'll find most of your answers there.  

Nope:  In particular:
Example of telepathy?

What threat.  Produce it.

More telepathy?  Or maybe just empathic telepathy, capable of determining emotional states.

More telepathy.  How do you know "trying"?!?!?

Precognition?  Substantiate.  

Welcome aboard!

(I think you just answered your own question, there)

Most responses were against his postings that spouted the fact that
all atheists are fools/evil for not seeing how peachy Islam is.
I would leave the pro/con arguments of Islam to Fred Rice, who is more
level headed and seems to know more on the subject, anyway.

How did you know I was going to welcome you abord?!?

	(2) is a corrallary of (1).

	The negation of (2) would contridict (1).

  (2) Is a corrallary of (1)

  The negation of (2) would contradict (1).
--

Hi!
	I am working on a project that needs to create contour lines
from random data points.  The work that I have done so far tells me that I
need to look into Triangulated Irregular Networks (TIN), the Delauney
criiterion, and the Krige method.  Does anyone have any suggestions for
references, programs and hopefully source code for creating contours.  Any
help with this or any surface modeling would be greatly appreciated.
I can be reached at the addresses below:

			-- Paul Conway

Can we assume from this statement that you are >unequivocally< saying that
AMORC is not a spin off of OTO? .. and that in fact, OTO may well be a spin
off of AMORC??
i would be quite interested in hearing what evidence you have to support this
claim. 

Study Smarter, not Harder! :-)

OK, here's at least one Christian's answer:

Jesus was a JEW, not a Christian.  In this context Matthew 5:14-19 makes
sense.  Matt 5:17 "Do not think that I [Jesus] came to abolish the Law or
the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill."  Jesus lived
under the Jewish law.  However, He was the culmination of the promises
of the Prophets.  He came to *fulfill* the prophecies and fully obey
God's purposes.

Verse 18 says "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass
away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law,
until all is accomplished."  The key to this verse IMHO is the last 
phrase.  Jesus, as the fulfillment of the law, "accomplished" what the 
Law was supposed to accomplish.  

Verse 19:  "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments,
and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the
kingdom of heaven."  Taken in the context of Jesus teaching Jewish 
people about living lives under the law, this makes sense.

In general, it appears that Jesus is responding to some criticism he 
must have received about "doing away with the Law."  That was not 
Jesus' intent at all.  He had come to earth to live the Law as it 
should be lived and fulfill the promises made by God to his 
people all the way back to Eve [Gen 3:15-The serpent will bruise your 
heel, but *He* will bruise his head.]  Jesus appeared to be "doing 
away with the Law" because he did not honor the traditions of men as 
equal to the Law of God.  He regularly locked horns with the religious 
leaders of the day because he would not conform to *their* rules, only 
God's Law.

In the Matthew passage Jesus is defending his dedication to the Law 
and defending himself against his accusors.  Almost the entire Sermon 
on the Mount (Matt. 5-7) is dedicated to helping the Jewish people 
understand the true intent of the Law, sweeping away the clutter which 
had been introduced by the Pharasees and their traditions.

In Galatians 3:23-26, Paul describes the relationship of Jesus to the 
Law in this way:

[23] But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being 
shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.  [24] Therefore 
the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be 
justified by faith.  [25]  But now that faith has come, we are no 
longer under a tutor.  [26] For you are all sons of God through faith 
in Christ Jesus.

I believe this says that after Christ was revealed, the Law had 
served it's purpose, i.e. "our tutor to lead us to Christ," and
now, "we are no longer under a tutor."  The law has been "fulfilled" 
as Christ said he would do.

God, the author of the old Law, and the Christ/Man, Jesus, are the same
personality.  Therefore, the old Law and the new Testament (the "last
will and testament" of Jesus) are based on the same moral principles. 
It makes sense that many of the principles in the old Law are
re-expressed in Christianity. 

On the other hand, now that the Law has fulfilled it's purpose and 
Christians relate to God through Christ, not the Law, it also makes 
sense that new practices and new symbolisms were established to 
represent the "mysteries" of this new relationship.  i.e. Baptism 
representing Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-8),
The Lord's supper as a memorial to His sacrifice (I Cor. 11:26), and
Sunday as a day of worship commemorating His resurrection (Matt 28:1ff,
Acts 20:7)

OK, That's one Christian's explanation.  I don't claim to have all
these issues completely settled even in my own mind and I welcome
other Christians to offer other alternatives.

Please excuse the long posting.  Thanks for your interest if you have read 
this far...

I have heard that the sabbath was originally determined by the phases of
the moon, and had elements of moon worship.  Early stuff, Egyptian in nature.

Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts.  For
example, Why couldn't Magellan just be told to go into a "safe"
mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a low-power-use mode and if
maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
gets better (hopefully), it could be turned on again.  

For that matter, why exactly were the Apollo lunar experiments
"turned off" rather than just "safed".  Was it political (i.e.
as along as they could be used, someone would keep bugging
congress for funds)?  Turning them off keeps them pesky
scientists out of the bureaucrat's hair....  

I've heard the argument that an active but "uncontrolled"
spacecraft causes "radio noise."  I find that hard to believe
that this could be a problem in a properly designed "safe" mode.
This safe mode could be a program routine which causes the
spacecraft to go to least fuel using orientation, and once a
(week, month, year, whatever) attempts a signal lock on Earth.
At that time, if funding has been restored, the mission can
continue.  If no signal is recieved, the spacecraft goes back to
the safe mode for another time period. As we would know when the
spacecraft is going to try to contact Earth, we could be
prepared if necessary.  

As another a spacecraft could do at the attempted contact is
beam stored data towards Earth.  If someone can receive it,
great, if not, so it's lost and no big deal.
By making the time and signal location generally known, perhaps
someone in the world might be able and willing to intercept the
data even if they're not willing to contact the spacecraft.

I see this as being particularly useful for spacecraft which
could have an otherwise long life and are in or are going to
places which are otherwise unaccessible (Jupiter/Saturn Orbit,
exiting the solar system, etc).   

Perhaps those designing future spacecraft (Cassini, Pluto Flyby,
etc) should consider designing in a "pause" mode in case their
spacecraft gets the ax sometime in the future after completion of
the primary mission. Perhaps Mars Observer and Galilleo could
have some kind of routine written in for the post mission
"drift" phase.

So any holes in all this?

The Proton has been used in 2, 3, and 4 stage versions.  The two stage version
was used for the first 3 launches, while the 3 and 4 stage versions are used
today.  The four stage version is used mostly for escape (and geosynchronous?)
orbits, while the 3 stage version is used for low earth orbits.  Since this is
the version that launched Mir and the Salyuts (and the add-on modules for Mir),
as long as Centaur is smaller than Mir (which I believe it is), it should fit
under the shroud.

I vaguely recall that the Russians are developing a LH2/LOX upper stage for the
Proton.

The CU people have been, and continue to be big ozone scientists. So 
this is consistent. It is also consistent with the new "Comercial 
applications" that NASA and Clinton are pushing so hard. 

Did anyone catch the rocket that was launched with a movie advert 
all over it? I think the rocket people got alot of $$ for painting 
up the sides with the movie stuff. What about the Coke/Pepsi thing 
a few years back? NASA has been trying to find ways to get other 
people into the space funding business for some time. Frankly, I've 
thought about trying it too. When the funding gets tight, only the 
innovative get funded. One of the things NASA is big on is co-funding. 
If a PI can show co-funding for any proposal, that proposal has a SIGNIFICANTLY
higher probability of being funded than a proposal with more merit but no 
co-funding. Once again, money talks!

+++
++Once inflated the substance was no longer
++needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse.
++This inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no 
++disastrous deflation.
+
+preasure (and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain
+a spherical shape against this resistance) caused them to
+catastrophically deflated.  The large silvered shards
+
+The billboard should pop like a dime store balloon.

No, you're wrong about this. Give me some time to get my references.

I am writing some utilies to convert Regis and Tektonic esacpe sequences  
into some useful formats. I would rather not have to goto a bitmap format.  
I can convert them to Window Meta FIles easily enough, but I would rather  
convert them to Corel Draw, .CDR, or MS Power Point, .PPT, files.  
Microsoft would not give me the format. I was wondering if anybody out  
there knows the formats for these two applications.

Also would maybe get the Russians Involved. After all they do have the resources
to do it in part.. But they need the capital and the goal..

I wonder if renting the russians resources would be a disqualification?

Hi Steve,

As the author of Multiverse, I feel I had better respond to your
mailnote questioning whether anyone had managed to compile this
software - the quick answer is yes! The long answer is yes - but a
few have had a few problems with their platforms - not all unix's are
the same, you know! As far as "many bugs" go, it would probably be more
useful to everyone (including you) if you were a bit more explicit! :-)

Platforms it has succesfully compiled and run on are: RS6000, Dec Ultrix
Sun Solaris so it is possible.

The main problem is that I don't have access to other platforms than the
RS6000, so if there are portability problems then the only way I hear
about them is by people letting me know and giving me a clue as to
how to fix it.

As far as the software not doing anything, do you really think I would
bother releasing it, if that was the case? Perhaps you didn't read the
few docs that ARE supplied. The dogfight world is made up of clients
only, so if you're in there on your own, then you're not going to see
anything! The dactyl world has quite a lot of scenary - so if you don't
see anything there, then this is definitely a problem!

One final word - if you're not interested, don't bother with it.
If you are interested, then please remember that I'm not asking for
any money! So why not try a little patience and constructive criticism,
maybe that will get results??

Sounds liek what the FED has to do is sign a 50 or more year lease to use
certain parts of a space station that is built and designed and such by a
commerical company or consortium of companies (such as like Alyeska) for a
small amount of rent in return for certain incentives and such.. Such as tax
and other right off and also a monopoly on certain products.. The commerical
builders would have certain perks given to them to make there end easier (taxes
, contracts, regulatory concesions and such..)

Is it workable, just might work..

After all, if China can lease out Hong Kong and the people of Hong Kong can
make money, this could work..

[...stiff deleted...]

Speed is a quantifiable measure resulting from a set of methods that
will result in the same value measured no matter the reference.  A 
bullet with zero velocity sitting on a table on a train moving 60mph
will be moving at a speed of

        (a) 0mph to someone on the train.
        (b) 60mph to someone stationary next to the train.

The reference frame makes the speed relative.  But what's interesting
here is that every person on the train will see a stationary bullet.
Every person off, a bullet moving 60mph.  

I know of no train where all the people on it, every time it is
filled, will see a moral problem in exactly the same way.

There was a Science fiction movie sometime ago (I do not remember its 
name) about a planet in the same orbit of Earth but hidden behind the 
Sun so it could never be visible from Earth. Turns out that that planet 
was the exact mirror image of Earth and all its inhabitants looked like 
the Earthings with the difference that their organs was in the opposite 
side like the heart was in the right side instead in the left and they 
would shake hands with the left hand and so on...

/*

This program doesn't detect edges with compass operators and a laplacian
operator. It should output 2 raw grey-scale images with edges. The output
doesn't look like edges at all.

In novicee terms, how do I correct the errors? Any improvements are welcome.
(I'll even accept your corrected code.)

(If I convolve the INPUT.IMAGE with a digital gaussian [7 by 7] to remove
noise, will I get an improvement with the laplacian.)

--------------------------2 types of edge detection-------------------------*/
#include <stdio.h> 
#include <math.h> 

#define IMAGEWIDTH 300
#define IMAGEHEIGHT 300

unsigned char Input_Image [IMAGEHEIGHT][IMAGEWIDTH];

unsigned char Angles_Wanted [IMAGEHEIGHT][IMAGEWIDTH];
unsigned char Magnitude_Image [IMAGEHEIGHT][IMAGEWIDTH];

int Laplace_Op1 [3][3] = { 0,-1, 0, -1,4,-1,  0,-1, 0};

int Compass_Op1 [3][3] = { 1, 1, 1,  0,0, 0, -1,-1,-1};
int Compass_Op2 [3][3] = { 1, 1, 0,  1,0,-1,  0,-1,-1};
int Compass_Op3 [3][3] = { 1, 0,-1,  1,0,-1,  1, 0,-1};
int Compass_Op4 [3][3] = { 0,-1,-1,  1,0,-1,  1, 1, 0};
int Compass_Op5 [3][3] = {-1,-1,-1,  0,0, 0,  1, 1, 1};
int Compass_Op6 [3][3] = {-1,-1, 0, -1,0, 1,  0, 1, 1};
int Compass_Op7 [3][3] = {-1, 0, 1, -1,0, 1, -1, 0, 1};
int Compass_Op8 [3][3] = { 0, 1, 1, -1,0, 1, -1,-1, 0};

void Compass (row,col)
int row,col;
{
  int value;
  int op_rows, op_cols;
  int Compass1,Compass2,Compass3,Compass4;
  int Compass5,Compass6,Compass7,Compass8;
  
  Compass1 = Compass2 = Compass3 = Compass4 = 0;
  Compass5 = Compass6 = Compass7 = Compass8 = 0;
  
  for (op_rows = -1; op_rows < 2; op_rows++)
    for (op_cols = -1; op_cols < 2; op_cols++)
      {
	if (((row + op_rows) >= 0) && ((col + op_cols) >= 0))
	  {
	    
	    Compass1 += ((int) Input_Image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * 
	                       Compass_Op1 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1];
	    Compass2 += ((int) Input_Image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * 
	                       Compass_Op2 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1];
	    Compass3 += ((int) Input_Image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * 
	                       Compass_Op3 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1];
	    Compass4 += ((int) Input_Image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * 
	                       Compass_Op4 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1];
	    Compass5 += ((int) Input_Image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * 
	                       Compass_Op5 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1];
	    Compass6 += ((int) Input_Image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * 
	                       Compass_Op6 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1];
	    Compass7 += ((int) Input_Image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * 
	                       Compass_Op7 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1];
	    Compass8 += ((int) Input_Image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols]) * 
	                       Compass_Op8 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1];
	    
	  }
      }
  if (Compass1 < Compass2)
    value = Compass2;
  else 
    value = Compass1;      
  if (value < Compass3)
    value = Compass3;
  if (value < Compass4)
    value = Compass4;
  if (value < Compass5)
    value = Compass5;
  if (value < Compass6)
    value = Compass6;
  if (value < Compass7)
    value = Compass7;
  if (value < Compass8)
    value = Compass8;

  Magnitude_Image [row][col] = (char) value;
}

void Laplace1 (row,col)
{

  Magnitude_Image [row][col] = 0;
      if (((row + op_rows) >= 0) && ((col + op_cols) >= 0))
	Magnitude_Image [row][col] = 
	  (char) ((int)Magnitude_Image [row][col] +
		  ((int) Input_Image [row + op_rows][col + op_cols] * 
		   Laplace_Op1 [op_rows + 1][op_cols + 1]));
}

main  ()
{
  FILE *Original_Image_fp;
  FILE *Laplace1_mag_fp,*Laplace2_mag_fp,*Laplace3_mag_fp;
  FILE *Compass_mag_fp;

  int row, col, Algo_Count;

  Original_Image_fp = fopen ("INPUT.IMAGE","rb");

  Laplace1_mag_fp = fopen ("Laplace1_Magnitude","wb");
  Compass_mag_fp = fopen ("Compass_Magnitude","wb");

  fread ((unsigned char *) Input_Image,sizeof(unsigned char),IMAGEHEIGHT * IMAGEWIDTH,Original_Image_fp);
  for (Algo_Count = 0; Algo_Count < 2;Algo_Count ++)
    {
      for (row = 0; row < IMAGEHEIGHT; row++) 
	for (col = 0; col < IMAGEWIDTH; col++) 
	  if (!Algo_Count)
	    Laplace1 (row,col);
	  else 
	    Compass (row,col);
      
      if (!Algo_Count)
	fwrite(Magnitude_Image,sizeof(char),IMAGEHEIGHT * IMAGEWIDTH,Laplace1_mag_fp);
      else 
	fwrite(Magnitude_Image,sizeof(char),IMAGEHEIGHT * IMAGEWIDTH,Compass_mag_fp);
    }
}

Perhaps not in Christianity, but in Islam the choice of religious
leaders is to be made by the people. So much for your superiority
argument.

Democracy is a basic element of Islam. Learn that one!

Ever notice that the so-called "fundamentalists" in Algeria
who are being repressed by the secular government won in
free and democratic elections.

->	First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian.  It 
->makes sense to be one.  Have any of you read Tony Campollo's book- liar, 
->lunatic, or the real thing?  (I might be a little off on the title, but he 
->writes the book.  Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity, 
->in the process he became a Christian himself.

Sounds like you are saying he was a part of some conspiracy.  Just what organization did he 
belong to? Does it have a name?

->	The book says that Jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a 
->modern day Koresh) or he was actually who he said he was.

Logic alert - artificial trifercation.  The are many other possible explainations.  Could have been
that he never existed.  There have been some good points made in this group that is not 
impossible  that JC is an amalgam of a number of different myths, Mithra comes to mind.

->	Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows.  Who would 
->die for a lie?  Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar?  People 
->gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing 
->someone who was or had been healed.  Call me a fool, but I believe he did 
->heal people.  

Logic alert -  argument from incredulity.  Just because it is hard for you to believe this doesn't
mean that it isn't true.  Liars can be very pursuasive, just look at Koresh that you yourself site.
He has followers that don't think he is a fake and they have shown that they are willing to die.
By not giving up after getting shot himself, Koresh has shown that he too is will to die for what 
he believes.  As far as healing goes.  If I rememer right the healing that was attributed is not
consistent between the different gospels.  In one of them the healing that is done is not any more 
that faith healers can pull off today.  Seems to me that the early gospels weren't that compeling,
so the stories got bigger to appeal better.

->	Niether was he a lunatic.  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
->to someone who was crazy.  Very doubtful, in fact rediculous.  For example 
->anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see 
->this right away.
->	Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the 
->real thing.  

Or might not have existed, or any number of things.  That is the logical pitfall that those who
use flawed logic like this fall into.  There are bifurcations (or tri, quad, etc) that are valid, because
in the proceeding steps, the person shows conclusively that the alternatives are all that are 
possible.  Once everyone agrees that the given set is indeed all there are, then arguments among
the alternatives can be presentent, and one mostly likely to be true can be deduced by excluding
all other possible alternatives.

However, if it can be shown that the set is not all inclusive, then any conclusions bases on the 
incomplete set are invalid, even if the true choice is one of the original choices.  I have given at 
least one valid alternative, so the conclusion that JC is the real McCoy just because he isn't one of
the other two alternative is no longer valid.

->	Some other things to note.  He fulfilled loads of prophecies in 
->the psalms, Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone.  This in his betrayal 
->and Crucifixion.  I don't have my Bible with me at this moment, next time I 
->write I will use it.

JC was a rabbi.  He knew what those prophecies were.  It wouldn't be any great shakes to make
sure one does a list of actions that would fullfill prophecy.  What would be compeling is if there
were a set of clear and explicit prophecies AND JC had absolutely NO knowledge of then,  yet 
fullfilled them anyway.

->	I don't think most people understand what a Christian is.  It 
->is certainly not what I see a lot in churches.  Rather I think it 
->should be a way of life, and a total sacrafice of everything for God's 
->sake.  He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the 
->same.  Hey we can't do it, God himself inspires us to turn our lives 
->over to him.  That's tuff and most people don't want to do it, to be a 
->real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at.  But 
->just like weight lifting or guitar playing, drums, whatever it takes 
->time.  We don't rush it in one day, Christianity is your whole life.  
->It is not going to church once a week, or helping poor people once in 
->a while.  We box everything into time units.  Such as work at this 
->time, sports, Tv, social life.  God is above these boxes and should be 
->carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for 
->ourselves.  

Here I agree with you.  Anyone who buys into this load of mythology should take what it says 
seriously, and what it says is that it must be a total way of life.  I have very little respect for 
Xians that don't.  If the myth is true, then it is true in its entirity.  The picking and choosing
that I see a lot of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Jim	  

---

Sorry to clog up the news group with this message.

Wayne Rigby, I have the info you requested, but for some
reason I can not mail it to you.  Please contact me!
Send email address.
j
-- 
"No Real Programmer can function without caffeine" - Zen + Art of Internet

     _/_/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/_/  _/_/  _/_/        John S. Muller
        _/      _/          _/  _/  _/         muller@diego.llnl.gov
       _/      _/_/_/_/_/  _/  _/  _/          muller@sisal.llnl.gov
 _/   _/              _/  _/      _/           jmuller@libserv1.ic.sunysb.edu 
 _/_/_/      _/_/_/_/_/  _/      _/            

"You are not drunk until you have to grab the grass,
 to keep the grass from falling off the earth" - Some Stupid Comedian

Apollo was done the hard way, in a big hurry, from a very limited
technology base... and on government contracts.  Just doing it privately,
rather than as a government project, cuts costs by a factor of several.

Does anyone have any Russian Contacts (Space or other) or contacts in the old
USSR/SU or Eastern Europe?

Post them here so we all can talk to them and ask questions..
I think the cost of email is high, so we would have to  keep the content to
specific topics and such..

Basically if we want to save Russia and such, then we need to make contacts,
contacts are a form of info, so lets get informing.

==

Could you expand on your definition of knowing? It seems a bit monolithic
here, but I'm not sure that you intend that. Don't we need, for example, to
distinguish between "knowing" 2 plus 2 equals 4 (or 2 apples plus 2 apples
equals 4 apples), the French "knowing" that Jerry Lewis is an auteur, and
what it means to say we "know" what Socrates said?

I happen to take the violation of a person much more seriously than the
"violation" of a mindless clump of cells smaller than my thumb.

Your mileage may vary.

...

	Nearly all of them.  Witness LA>  Firemen are among our real
	heroes most of the time.  I wonder when they were actually
	aasked to come, or if they found out about the fire over the
	TV ....

	Shot at by whom?  prove it!

	When "law" replaces "justice" the system is dying or dead.
	Note that we had a small revolution 216 years ago on this
	point.

	Or perhaps just wait.
	Or maybeeven send in a few agents who are Christian to
		sit down and pray outside the line?  Try affinity
		rather than subversion?

	Chuckle.  SO would you if someone points a gun at you.
	At that point you can die or live; and if living means
	stayng in a building to keep badge carrying nuts off your
	kids, I suspect you might as well.

BOTH sides were wrong.

	Try again:  go see the movie Sophie's CHoice.
	Grow up.

The first premise and the conclusion are not properly translated as identity
statements, since the "is" in those statements is the "is" of predication
rather than of identity.  Instead, they should be translated using a
predicate letter.  Using "g" to designate God and "j" to designate Jesus,
and the predicate letter "E" for the property of being eternal, the
first premise is Eg and the conclusion is Ej.
    The second premise appears to contain an "is" of identity, in which
case it can be properly symbolized as j = g.  But your remark that "Jesus
is a subset of God" suggests that strict identity is not desired here.
If, however, the first premise means that all members making up the set
God have the property of being eternal, the same conclusion follows.

Dennis, I have worked on or written proposals worth tens of millions
of $$. Customers included government (including NASA), for profit and
non-profit companies. All expected a wrap (usually called a fee). Much
of the work involved allocating and costing the work of subcontractors.
The subcontractors where universities, for-profits, non-profits, and
even some of the NASA Centers for the Commercialization of Space. ALL
charged fees as part of the work. Down the street is one of the NASA
commercialization centers; they charge a fee.

Now, I'm sure your a competent engineer Dennis, but you clearly lack
experience in several areas. Your posts show that you don't understand
the importance of integration in large projects. You also show a lack
of understanding of costing efforts as shown by your belief that it
is reasonable to charge incremental costs for everything. This isn't
a flame, jsut a statement.

Your employer DOES charge a fee. You may not see it but you do.

Well there you are Dennis. As I said, they simply include the fee in
their overhead. Many seoparate the fee since the fee structure can
change depending on the customer.

Integration, Dennis, isn't overhead.

Dennis, Reston has been the only NASA agency working to reduce costs. When
WP 02 was hemoraging out a billion $$, the centers you love so much where
doing their best to cover it up and ignore the problem. Reston was the
only place you would find people actually interested in solving the
problems and building a station.

When you have a bit more experience Dennis, you will realize that
integration isn't overhead. It is the single most important part
of a successful large scale effort.

The story you refer to said that some NASA people blamed it on
Congress. Suprise suprise. The fact remains that it is the centers
you support so much who covered up the overheads and wouldn't address
the problems until the press published the story.

Are you saying the Reston managers where wrong to get NASA to address
the overruns? You approve of what the centers did to cover up the overruns?

You should know Dennis that NASA doesn't include transport costs for
resuply. That comes from the Shuttle budget. What they where saying
is that operational costs could be cut in half plus transport.

I do hope you can find the time to tell us just why it was wrong of
Reston to ask that the problems with WP 02 be addressed.

  Allen

My point is that you set up your views as the only way to believe.  Saying 
that all eveil in this world is caused by atheism is ridiculous and 
counterproductive to dialogue in this newsgroups.  I see in your posts a 
spirit of condemnation of the atheists in this newsgroup bacause they don'
t believe exactly as you do.  If you're here to try to convert the atheists 
here, you're failing miserably.  Who wants to be in position of constantly 
defending themselves agaist insulting attacks, like you seem to like to do?!
I'm sorry you're so blind that you didn't get the messgae in the quote, 
everyone else has seemed to.

Find an encyclopedia. Volume H. Now look up Hitler, Adolf. He had
many more people than just Germans enamoured with him.

P.

Is there an FTP archive for United States Geological Services (USGS)
terrain data? If so, where?

Fine... THE ILLIAD IS THE WORD OF GOD(tm)  (disputed or not, it is)

Dispute that.  It won't matter.  Prove me wrong.

Brian West

[Also posted in misc.forsale.wanted,misc.wanted,ne.wanted,ny.wanted,nj.wanted]

WANTED:  Optical Shaft Encoders

Quantity 2
Single-ended
Incremental

Needed to encode the movements of a 16" Cassegrain telescope.  The telescope
is in the observatory of the Univ. of Mass. at Boston.  The project is being
managed by Mr. George Tucker, a graduate student at UMB.  Please call him, or
email/call me, if you have one or two of the specified type of encoder.  Of
course, due to our low funding level we are looking for a price that is
sufficiently lower than that given for new encoders.  :)

George Tucker
617-965-3408

ME:

I once thought it would be easiest fitting a sine to the times. But not.
This gave  discrepancy of upto six minutes. If you fit a sine series
you'll get a very good fit after just three or four terms though. This
presumably has to do with the eccentricity of the Earths orbit.

Kerry-- I'm guessing a little at this, because it's been a few years 
since I saw the info, but you will probably want to look at Air Defense 
Artillery as a specialty, or possibly Signals.  The kind of thing you're 
looking for is SDI-type assignments, but it'll be pretty prosaic stuff.
Things like hard-kill ATBM missiles, some of the COBRA rigs -- that kind 
of thing.  

Hope that gives you some ideas on where to look, though.

gnuplot, etc. make it easy to plot real valued functions of 2 variables
but I want to plot functions whose values are 2-vectors. I have been 
doing this by plotting arrays of arrows (complete with arrowheads) but
before going further, I thought I would ask whether someone has already
done the work. Any pointers??

thanx in advance

Paradise and salvation are not the same thing.  Salvation is better.  Refer
to John 14:2.

OK: So you were a naive teen.

	Wrong: 1915 and if you do your homework, 1909.
But he was born LAST century (1883).

The name is rather descriptive.  It's a command to the spacecraft that tells
it "If you don't hear from Earth after 264 hours, assume something is wrong
with your (the spacecraft) attitude, and go into a preprogrammed search mode
in an attempt to reacquire the signal from Earth."

Archive-name: space/constants
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:04 $

CONSTANTS AND EQUATIONS FOR CALCULATIONS

    This list was originally compiled by Dale Greer. Additions would be
    appreciated.

    Numbers in parentheses are approximations that will serve for most
    blue-skying purposes.

    Unix systems provide the 'units' program, useful in converting
    between different systems (metric/English, etc.)

    NUMBERS

	7726 m/s	 (8000)  -- Earth orbital velocity at 300 km altitude
	3075 m/s	 (3000)  -- Earth orbital velocity at 35786 km (geosync)
	6371 km		 (6400)  -- Mean radius of Earth
	6378 km		 (6400)  -- Equatorial radius of Earth
	1738 km		 (1700)  -- Mean radius of Moon
	5.974e24 kg	 (6e24)  -- Mass of Earth
	7.348e22 kg	 (7e22)  -- Mass of Moon
	1.989e30 kg	 (2e30)  -- Mass of Sun
	3.986e14 m^3/s^2 (4e14)  -- Gravitational constant times mass of Earth
	4.903e12 m^3/s^2 (5e12)  -- Gravitational constant times mass of Moon
	1.327e20 m^3/s^2 (13e19) -- Gravitational constant times mass of Sun
	384401 km	 ( 4e5)  -- Mean Earth-Moon distance
	1.496e11 m	 (15e10) -- Mean Earth-Sun distance (Astronomical Unit)

	1 megaton (MT) TNT = about 4.2e15 J or the energy equivalent of
	about .05 kg (50 gm) of matter. Ref: J.R Williams, "The Energy Level
	of Things", Air Force Special Weapons Center (ARDC), Kirtland Air
	Force Base, New Mexico, 1963. Also see "The Effects of Nuclear
	Weapons", compiled by S. Glasstone and P.J. Dolan, published by the
	US Department of Defense (obtain from the GPO).

    EQUATIONS

	Where d is distance, v is velocity, a is acceleration, t is time.
	Additional more specialized equations are available from:

	    ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/MoreEquations

	For constant acceleration
	    d = d0 + vt + .5at^2
	    v = v0 + at
	  v^2 = 2ad

	Acceleration on a cylinder (space colony, etc.) of radius r and
	    rotation period t:

	    a = 4 pi**2 r / t^2

	For circular Keplerian orbits where:
	    Vc	 = velocity of a circular orbit
	    Vesc = escape velocity
	    M	 = Total mass of orbiting and orbited bodies
	    G	 = Gravitational constant (defined below)
	    u	 = G * M (can be measured much more accurately than G or M)
	    K	 = -G * M / 2 / a
	    r	 = radius of orbit (measured from center of mass of system)
	    V	 = orbital velocity
	    P	 = orbital period
	    a	 = semimajor axis of orbit

	    Vc	 = sqrt(M * G / r)
	    Vesc = sqrt(2 * M * G / r) = sqrt(2) * Vc
	    V^2  = u/a
	    P	 = 2 pi/(Sqrt(u/a^3))
	    K	 = 1/2 V**2 - G * M / r (conservation of energy)

	    The period of an eccentric orbit is the same as the period
	       of a circular orbit with the same semi-major axis.

	Change in velocity required for a plane change of angle phi in a
	circular orbit:

	    delta V = 2 sqrt(GM/r) sin (phi/2)

	Energy to put mass m into a circular orbit (ignores rotational
	velocity, which reduces the energy a bit).

	    GMm (1/Re - 1/2Rcirc)
	    Re = radius of the earth
	    Rcirc = radius of the circular orbit.

	Classical rocket equation, where
	    dv	= change in velocity
	    Isp = specific impulse of engine
	    Ve	= exhaust velocity
	    x	= reaction mass
	    m1	= rocket mass excluding reaction mass
	    g	= 9.80665 m / s^2

	    Ve	= Isp * g
	    dv	= Ve * ln((m1 + x) / m1)
		= Ve * ln((final mass) / (initial mass))

	Relativistic rocket equation (constant acceleration)

	    t (unaccelerated) = c/a * sinh(a*t/c)
	    d = c**2/a * (cosh(a*t/c) - 1)
	    v = c * tanh(a*t/c)

	Relativistic rocket with exhaust velocity Ve and mass ratio MR:

	    at/c = Ve/c * ln(MR), or

	    t (unaccelerated) = c/a * sinh(Ve/c * ln(MR))
	    d = c**2/a * (cosh(Ve/C * ln(MR)) - 1)
	    v = c * tanh(Ve/C * ln(MR))

	Converting from parallax to distance:

	    d (in parsecs) = 1 / p (in arc seconds)
	    d (in astronomical units) = 206265 / p

	Miscellaneous
	    f=ma    -- Force is mass times acceleration
	    w=fd    -- Work (energy) is force times distance

	Atmospheric density varies as exp(-mgz/kT) where z is altitude, m is
	molecular weight in kg of air, g is local acceleration of gravity, T
	is temperature, k is Bolztmann's constant. On Earth up to 100 km,

	    d = d0*exp(-z*1.42e-4)

	where d is density, d0 is density at 0km, is approximately true, so

	    d@12km (40000 ft) = d0*.18
	    d@9 km (30000 ft) = d0*.27
	    d@6 km (20000 ft) = d0*.43
	    d@3 km (10000 ft) = d0*.65

		    Atmospheric scale height	Dry lapse rate
		    (in km at emission level)	 (K/km)
		    -------------------------	--------------
	    Earth	    7.5			    9.8
	    Mars	    11			    4.4
	    Venus	    4.9			    10.5
	    Titan	    18			    1.3
	    Jupiter	    19			    2.0
	    Saturn	    37			    0.7
	    Uranus	    24			    0.7
	    Neptune	    21			    0.8
	    Triton	    8			    1

	Titius-Bode Law for approximating planetary distances:

	    R(n) = 0.4 + 0.3 * 2^N Astronomical Units (N = -infinity for
	    Mercury, 0 for Venus, 1 for Earth, etc.)

	    This fits fairly well except for Neptune.

    CONSTANTS

	6.62618e-34 J-s  (7e-34) -- Planck's Constant "h"
	1.054589e-34 J-s (1e-34) -- Planck's Constant / (2 * PI), "h bar"
	1.3807e-23 J/K	(1.4e-23) - Boltzmann's Constant "k"
	5.6697e-8 W/m^2/K (6e-8) -- Stephan-Boltzmann Constant "sigma"
    6.673e-11 N m^2/kg^2 (7e-11) -- Newton's Gravitational Constant "G"
	0.0029 m K	 (3e-3)  -- Wien's Constant "sigma(W)"
	3.827e26 W	 (4e26)  -- Luminosity of Sun
	1370 W / m^2	 (1400)  -- Solar Constant (intensity at 1 AU)
	6.96e8 m	 (7e8)	 -- radius of Sun
	1738 km		 (2e3)	 -- radius of Moon
	299792458 m/s	  (3e8)  -- speed of light in vacuum "c"
	9.46053e15 m	  (1e16) -- light year
	206264.806 AU	  (2e5)  -- \
	3.2616 light years (3)	 --  --> parsec
	3.0856e16 m	 (3e16)  -- /

Black Hole radius (also called Schwarzschild Radius):

	2GM/c^2, where G is Newton's Grav Constant, M is mass of BH,
		c is speed of light

    Things to add (somebody look them up!)
	Basic rocketry numbers & equations
	Aerodynamical stuff
	Energy to put a pound into orbit or accelerate to interstellar
	    velocities.
	Non-circular cases?

 > 
 > 
 > SOmebody mentioned  a re-boost of HST during this mission,  meaning
 > that Weight is a very tight  margin on this  mission.
 >  

I haven't heard any hint of a re-boost, or that any is needed.

 > 
 > why not  grapple,  do all said fixes,   bolt a small  liquid  fueled
 > thruster module  to  HST,   then let it make the re-boost.  it has to be
 > cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug.   

Nasty, dirty combustion products!  People have gone to monumental efforts to
keep HST clean.  We certainly aren't going to bolt any thrusters to it.

Madmen are mad.  Do we try to explain the output from a broken computer?

I have an addition to the FAQ regarding "why are there no atheist
hospitals."

If I recall correctly, Johns Hopkins was built to provide medical
services without the "backing" of a religious group...thus making it a
hospital "dedicated to the glory of [weak] atheism."

Might someone check up on this?

    ^^^
If french is your language, try counting in french in stead, maybe
it will work better.... :-)

:>re: majority of users not readding from floppy.
:>Well, how about those of us who have 1400-picture CD-ROMS and would like to use
:>CVIEW because it is fast and it works well, but can't because the moron lacked
:>the foresight to create the temp file in the program's path, not the current
:>didrectory?

:  Actually the most flexible way to create temp files is to check for a TEMP or
: TMP environment variable and create the files on the drive and directory pointedto by the variable.  This is pretty much a standard for DOS, Windows and OS/2
: applications.

Unfortunately, cview does not pay attention to the temp environment variable.

But as many as received him,
	to them gave he power
	to become the sons of God,
	even to them that believe on his name:

no, sheesh, didn't you know 666 is the beast's apartment?  667 is across the
hall from the beast, and is his neighbor along with the rest of the 6th floor.

This doesn't seem discordant to you?

I am sure  Mary or Henry can describe this more aptly then me.
But here is how i understand it.

At Speed,  Near supersonic.  The wind behaves like a fluid pipe.
It becomes incompressible.  So wind has to bend away from the
wing edges.   AS the wing thickens,  the more the pipes bend.

If they have no place to go,  they begin to stall,  and force
compression, stealing power from the vehicle (High Drag).

If you squeeze the fuselage,  so that these pipes  have aplace to bend
into,  then drag is reduced.   

Essentially,  teh cross sectional area of the aircraft shoulf
remain constant for all areas of the fuselage.  That is where the wings are
subtract, teh cross sectional area of the wings from the fuselage.

Yeah, and it's also true most long complicated sequences of events,
calculations, or big computer programs in general.  I don't argue
that you can get similar and maybe useful results from fractals, I
just question whether you >should<.

The fractal fiends seem to be saying that any part of a system that we
can't model should be replaced with a random number generator.  That
has been useful, for instance, in making data more palatable to human
perception or for torture testing the rest of the system, but I don't
think it has much to do with fractals, and I certainly would rather
that the model be improved in a more explicable manner.

I guess I just haven't seen all these earth-shaking fractal models
that explain and correlate to the universe as it actually exists.  I
really hope I do, but I'm not holding my self-similar breath.

Uh huh.  I'll believe it when I see it.  I've been chasing fractal
compression for a few years, and I still don't believe in it.  If it's so
great, how come we don't see it competing with JPEG?  'Cause it can't,
I'll wager.

Actually, I have wagered, I quit trying to make fractal compression
work- and I was trying- because I don't think it's a reasonable
alternative to other techniques.  It is neat, though. :-)

I'll reiterate my disbelief that everything is fractal.  That's why I
don't think fractal compression as it is widely explained is
practical.  I know Barnsley and Sloan have some tricks up their
sleeves that make their demos work, but I don't see anyone using it in a
real product.  It's been six years since Iterated Systems was formed,
right?

	"There are always going to be questions until there's a product
	out there," Sloan replies.  The company plans to ship its first
	encoding devices in the summer, he says.  In March, Iterated
	Systems will have the other half of the system: the decoders.

		- Scientific American, March 1990, page 77

: I love the idea of an inflatable 1-mile long sign.... It will be a
: really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt  (or even better, a
: Westford Needle!) comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec.  

: <BOOM!>  Whooooooooshhhhhh......  <sputter, sputter>

: <okay, PRETEND it would make a sound!>
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Just a thought... (let's pretend it IS INFLATED and PRESSURIZED) wouldn't
there be a large static electricity build up around the puncture?
If the metalization is behind a clear sandwich (ie. insulated) then the 
deflating balloon would generate electrical interference - "noise"

By the way, any serious high velocity impact would simply cut a "Bugs
Bunny" hole through the wall, highly unlikely to "BOOM", and the fabric
would almost certainly be ripstop.

Better idea for use of NASA Shuttle Astronauts and Crew is have them be found
lost in space after a accident with a worm hole or other space/time glitch..

Maybe age Jemison a few years (makeup and such) and have her as the only
survivour of a failed shuttle mission that got lost.. 

Heh of late, they way they have been having shuttle problems in the media,
anything can happen.. 

Imagine a Astronaut/Crew member to find themselves in the 24th Century as the
object of interest of an alien civilization, maybe rescued or helped by the ST
Enterprise...  I know Vegr and such was okay, but this could be better..

  Or, with no dictionary available, they could gain first hand
  knowledge by suffering through one of your posts.

Here at Lewis and Clark College we have recently installed a Digital Film
system (based on the Mac Quadra) that does non-linear, full digital editing.

If you're considering such a system, here are the pros and cons:

For the educational environment, this system is excellent.  We use it to
produce a variety of educational materials for disemination on our local
network.  Because this programming is going to be viewed on other Macs, the
image quality is not as important as the ability to directly export the
video to the Net.

We also use it to produce orientiation and promotional video programs for
use by the Lewis & Clark community.  Since these programs are not meant for
commercial or broadcast use, image quality is not critical.

The Digital Film system, for those of you who are uninitiated, is an A/B roll
digitizing system on one $5000 JPEG compression card.  It was promoted as
an inexpensive online editing system with SVHS quality.  SuperMac, the maker
of the card, is trying to achieve this quality level, but as yet, has been
unable to deliver.  Our system produces "near VHS" quality at 30 fields per
second (640x480 overscan).  The card repeats every other field to get 60
fields per second.  This results in a kind of Super 8 film look that some
find distracting.

If you can get past this problem, you'll find the Adobe Premier editing 
software quite enjoyable with which to work.  It produces thousands of
different effects from crystalize filters to DVE transitions to color matting.

Because of its non-linear nature, editing is fast and easy.  If you've ever
used (or seen used) an AVID or Montage system, you'll recognize the methodology
and the user interface.

The total system with Quadra 950 (40Megs of RAM), 1 gig drive, 21" Apple mon-
itor, Panasonic SVHS 1960 edit deck, audio gear (cassette, CD, EQ, mixer, etc),
Composite monitor, Digital Film card will set you back about $20,000.

For you video cowboys and girls, this system will not output at a quality
that will satisfy most of your clients.  Even though you can perform more
effects than a toasterhead can imagine, an Amiga based off-line based system
will look better.

We use both Macs and Amigas for our video work.  Each for what each does best!

Does anyone out there have or know of,  line drawing USA map?

Hoi

Okay... I argued this thoroughly about 3-4 weeks ago.  Men and women are
different ... physically, physiologically, and psychologically.  Much
recent evidence for this statement is present in the book "Brainsex" by
Anne Moir and David Jessel.  I recommend you find a copy and read it.
Their book is an overview of recent scientific research on this topic
and is well referenced. 

Now, if women and men are different in some ways, the law can only
adequately take into account their needs in these areas where they are
different by also taking into account the ways in which men and women
are different.  Maternity leave is an example of this -- it takes into
account that women get pregnant.  It does not give women the same rules
it would give to men, because to treat women like it treats men in this
instance would be unjust.  This is just simply an obvious example of
where men and women are intrinsically different!!!!!

Now, people make the _naive_ argument that sexism = oppression.
However, maternity leave is sexist because MEN DO NOT GET PREGNANT. 
Men do not have the same access to leave that women do (not to the same
extent or degree), and therefore IT IS SEXIST.  No matter however much a
man _wants_ to get pregnant and have maternity leave, HE NEVER CAN.  And
therefore the law IS SEXIST.  No man can have access to maternity leave,
NO MATTER HOW HARD HE TRIES TO GET PREGNANT.  I hope this is clear.

Maternity leave is an example where a sexist law is just, because the
sexism here just reflects the "sexism" of nature in making men and women
different.  There are many other differences between men and women which
are far more subtle than pregnancy, and to find out more of these I
recommend you have a look at the book "Brainsex".

Your point that perhaps some day men can also be pregnant is fallacious.
If men can one day become pregnant it will be by having biologically
become women!  To have a womb and the other factors required for
pregnancy is usually wrapped up in the definition of what a woman is --
so your argument, when it is examined, is seen to be fallacious.  You
are saying that men can have the sexist maternity leave privilege that 
women can have if they also become women -- which actually just supports
my statement that maternity leave is sexist.

There is no official priesthood in Islam -- much of this function is
taken by Islamic scholars.  There are female Islamic scholars and
female Islamic scholars have always existed in Islam.  An example from
early Islamic history is the Prophet's widow, Aisha, who was recognized
in her time and is recognized in our time as an Islamic scholar.

You have no evidence for your blanket statement about all religions, and
I dispute it.  I could go on and on about women in Islam, etc., but I
recently reposted something here under the heading "Islam and Women" --
if it is still at your news-site I suggest you read it.  It is reposted
from soc.religion.islam, so if it has disappeared from alt.atheism it
still might be in soc.religion.islam (I forgot what its original title
was though).  I will email it to you if you like. 

Your statement that "other religions are no different" is, I think, a
statement based simply on lack of knowledge about religions other than
Christianity and perhaps Judaism.

Aisha, who I mentioned earlier, was not only an Islamic scholar but also
was, at one stage, a military leader.

The Prophet's first wife, who died just before the "Hijra" (the
Prophet's journey from Mecca to Medina) was a successful businesswoman.

Lucio, you cannot make a strong case for your viewpoint when your
viewpoint is based on ignorance about world religions.

	Nor, to point out the obvious, are the deluded, siege-mentality
followers of a religious nut-case who thought he was Jesus Christ or possibly
The Big Guy.
	Personally, much as I regard the BATF and FBI as ConDupes, I'll take
their word over a bunch of silly pinks who were stoopid enough to lock
themselves up with a goofball like "David Koresh" in a makeshift arsenal.
	************************************************************
	*  	The_Doge of South St. Louis			   *
	*		Dobbs-Approved Media Conspirator(tm)	   *
	*	"One Step Beyond"  -- Sundays, 3 to 5 pm	   *
	*		88.1 FM		St. Louis Community Radio  *
	*  "You'll pay to know what you *really* think!"           *
	*			-- J.R. "Bob" Dobbs"		   *

I bought the diamond stealth 24 a few months ago.  it seems to be a
great card especially with my multimedia presentations.  It runs graphics
and animation as well as some near full motion video very well.  The only
thing I can tell that it lacks is speed above 256 colors.  Its qualit in
between 256 and 16.7 million collors un unreal but you definitly
compromise speed.  It seems to be a great card for graphics and it comes
with some great software, but Im not so sure about the excelerator
part.  I used to own a paridise and it doesnt seem to be much faster
than that.  One thing I do like is that it loads its own vesa driver
from ROM at startup, (I think) because I have never had to load it for
links386 or any other programs that require special VESA drivers at
startup. 

gromi a16pd

                                       HINTMATT@BA.BA.ISU.EDU

I don't think you're going to be able to see the differences from a sphere
unless they are greatly exaggerated.  Even the equatorial bulge is only
about 1 part in 300 -- you'd never notice a 1mm error in a 30cm globe --
and the other deviations from spherical shape are much smaller.

You forget that Apollo was a Government program and had to start 
relatively from scratch. Some people at NASA think that this could work. 
One of them replied to me personally after I posted this original message 
several days ago. I have heard Jerry Pournelle suggest this idea before.

 Can You report CRT and other register state in this mode ?
 Thank's.

Dear Binary Newsers,

I am looking for Quick C or Microsoft C code for image decoding from file for
VGA viewing and saving images from/to GIF, TIFF, PCX, or JPEG format. I have
scoured the Internet, but its like trying to find a Dr. Seuss spell checker 
TSR. It must be out there, and there's no need to reinvent the wheel.

Thanx in advance.

//////////////

Who has to consider it?  The being that does the action?  I'm still
not sure I know what you are trying to say.

	They did the rollout already??!?  I am going to have to pay more
attention to the news.  Are any of the gifs headed for wuarchive??
 
Patrick

  I might suggest giving the management some more mumble time by asking
the very leading question (in two or three parts)
   What are your long term expectations of space market, what projects
specifically are they funding by internal funds and at what levels
and what competition do you expect in this  area. (This last point
is always worth hitting upper management with "gently" if you want 
them to think and as hard as you can if you have a good case that
there really is competion)

I'll take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable.  I base
this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
of their freedom (so that their every act was contrary to their volition),
almost all would want to complain.  Therefore I take it that to assert or
believe that "Freedom is not very valuable", when almost everyone can see
that it is, is every bit as absurd as to assert "it is not raining" on
a rainy day.  I take this to be a candidate for an objective value, and it
it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values
such as this exist.

You missed something.  I think it takes off vertically and is intended
to land the same way.

-- 

A shareware graphics program called Pman has a filter that makes a picture
look like a hand drawing.  This picture could probably be converted into
vector format much easier because it is all lines. (With Corel Trace, etc..)

I am currently looking for a 3D graphics library that runs on MS
Windows 3.1.  Are there any such libraries out there other than
Visuallib?  (It must run on VGA and should not require any other
add-on graphics cards).

For Visuallib, will it run with Metaware High C compiler v3.0?  Any
email contact for the author of Visuallib?

Any help would be much appreciated.  Thanks.

HELP   MY FRIEND AND I HAVE A CLASS PROJECT IN WHICH WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE
    A COMPUTER ANIMATED MOVIE OF SORTS WITH THE DISNEY ANIMATION AND WOULD
    LIKE TO PUT WHAT WE HAVE ON A VCR IS THIS POSSIBLE?  IS IT EASY AND
    RELATIVELY CHEAP? IF SO HOW? WE BOTH HAVE 386 IBM COMPATIBLES BUT ARE
    RELATIVELY CLUELESS WITH COMPUTERS IF YOU COULD HELP PLEASE DO.

                                THANX.
-- 
BRANT RITTER
-----------------------------------------------------
moshing--   "a cosmic cesspool of physical delight."
                                  -A. Kiedas
                                     RHCP

Archer> How about "Interactive Sex with Madonna"?

or "Sexium" for short.

/Lars

Apparently not.

In response to his claim that it "terrifies" gay people not to be able
to "indoctrinate children to our lifestyle" (or words to that effect),
I sent Roger a very calm, carefully-written, detailed letter
explaining simply why the BSA policy does, indeed terrify me.  I did
not use inflammatory language and left myself extremely open for an
answer.  Thus far, I have not received an answer.  I can conclude only
that Roger considers his position either indefensible or simply not
worth defending.

In fact, that's exactly the point: people can control their behavior.
Because of that fact, there is no need for a blanket ban on
homosexuals.

You tell me.

I didn't say it NEVER mentioned Satan, I said it RARELY, if at all.  Please 
excuse me for my lack of perfect memory or omnipotence.

[Stuff deleted] 

I'm glad to see that someone is working on this.  However, it would be nice if
he got his units right.

I'll defer to your greater firsthand knowledge in such matters.

Isn't that interesting?!  In the Jewish tradition you are incredibly
wrong!  They originate in the Torah and with Jewish ancestors,
specifically the Patriarch Abraham (z"l).  That knowledge was sent East
to India and China when Abraham gave "gifts" (the commentators to Jewish
scripture say this was the knowledge of the occult arts) to all the rest
of his children when he sent them away to the East.  This assured that
Isaac only, who remained with Abraham, would inherit his most important
spiritual gifts, what eventually became Judaism.

So you see, other religions can have very parochial views too.  By the
Jewish view, you are very mistaken, your scripture are not scripture,
your gods are not gods, your practices a jumble of errors that lead
people to idol worship and away from God.  That doesn't stop us from
respecting you to the extent of not trying to convert you or proselytize
you and being willing to dialog in a respectful manner.  We're content
to let you live the way you care to live as long as you leave us be.  We
are happy to co-exist as long as you give us the same right.

But your incredible rudeness and violent nature seems to preclude that.
Too bad.  Is this typical of your religion?

You are a most presumptuous fellow!  How dare you presume that the
"typical" New Ager doesn't acknowledge God and is selfish.  What trite,
self-righteous, ego-ful garbage!  There are Buddhists, Christians, Jews,
and those of many other religions here on this newsgroups for whom your
words are simple slander.

Of course, from the Jewish perspective you are incredibly wrong.  We'd
say that there is no "godhead" -- just created beings who may be
enjoying a good laugh at your expense.

So not only are we selfish, we are also thieves and liars!  And you
expect any of us to pay attention to you and your "religion?"  Why not
call us more name?   Maybe then we'll all convert in gratefullness!

You delude yourself.

I think you would lose your money. Julius was actually rather tall
for a Roman. He did go on record as favouring small soldiers though.
Thought they were tougher and had more guts. He was probably right
if you think about it. As for Napoleon remember that the French
avergae was just about 5 feet and that height is relative! Did he
really have a complex?

ObSpace :  We have all seen the burning candle from High School that goes
out and relights. If there is a large hot body placed in space but in an
atmosphere, exactly how does it heat the surroundings? Diffusion only?

It's not really their _decision_ to be tried. The rulings _do_ have
legal consequences, but only in Islamic law and not in UK law (this
should be obvious). Enforcing a judgment is distinct from the making
of a judgment. Take for example the judgments of the World Court. This
is an internationally recognized tribunal whose judgments often have no
physical or economic effect but which _are_ important despite the fact
that their judgments cannot be enforced

Of course, have you read any of this thread before this post? 

Of course, it is a sort of anarchism. Anarchism is explicitly against
Islam. Thank you for your well reasoned response, but it is beside the
points I've been making in this thread. 

     TRIAD, the first drag-free satellite, was designed and built by the 
Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory and launched 2 Sept 1972.  The 
satellite was in three sections separated by two booms.  The central section 
housed the DISCOS Disturbance Compensation System, which consisted of a proof 
mass of special non-magnetic alloy housed within a spherical cavity.  The 
proof mass flew a true gravitational orbit, free from drag and radiation 
pressure.  Teflon microthrusters kept the body of the satellite centered 
around the proof mass, thereby flying the entire satellite drag free.

     TRIAD was one of the APL-designed Navy Navigation Satellites.  The 
2nd-generation operational navigation satellites flying today (NOVA) use a 
single-axis version of DISCOS.  TRIAD was also the sixth APL satellite to be 
powered by an RTG (APL flew the first nuclear power supply in space, in 1961).

     Further info on TRIAD, DISCOS, etc. can be found in "Spacecraft Design 
Innovations in the APL Space Department," Johns Hopkins APL Technical Digest, 
Vol. 13, No. 1 (1992).

I love the idea of progressive developmental prizes, but the assumption
has
been all along that only the U.S. Gummint could fund the prizes.  It
wouldn't and couldn't do such a thing ... BUT ...

An eccentric billionaire COULD offer such a prize or series of prizes.

Anyone know H. Ross Perot or Bill Gates personally?

Hi all!
	I've just recently become seriously hooked on POV, but there are a few
thing that I want to do that POV won't do (penumbral shadows, dispersion
etc.). I was just wondering: what other shareware/freeware raytracers are
out there, and what can they do? I've heard of Vivid and Polyray and 
Rayshade and so on, but I'd rather no wade through several hundred pages of 
manual for each trying to work out what their capabilities are. Can anyone
help? A comparison of tracing speed between each program would also be 
mucho useful.
											Mark.

Mark Mackey                 | Life is a terminal disease and oxygen is         
mmackey@aqueous.ml.csiro.au | addictive. Are _you_ hooked?                  

Reported yesterday in the Washington Post (Kathy Sawyer, writer):

The article plays down the Russian role in US space.

Gibbons (science advisor to Clinton) sent Goldin a letter indicating
NASA should not limit redesign options to those compatible with Mir
orbit.

The White House thinks expectations for Russian cooperation have been
raised too high.

The article reports that some think the spending and schedule limits
for space station are so stringent that the redesign is nearly
impossible.  That's why some think Goldin has begun looking at 
Russian hardware.

Goldin states NASA will present all options to the administration 
which will then have decision making power.

Goldin and the White House have totally ruled out using Energia to
boost the station.

There were some recent developments in the dispute about Masonry among
Southern Baptists.  I posted a summary over in bit.listserv.christia, and
I suppose that it might be useful here.  Note that I do not necessarily
agree or disagree with any of what follows: I present it as information.

 *

For a short summary:  a Southern Baptist named Larry Holly wrote a book
claiming that Freemasonry is a religion incompatible with Christianity.
(Mr Holly's father rejects Christianity, and Mr Holly blames that on the
Masons.)

The SBC's Home Missions Board includes an interfaith witness department,
which studies other religions and how to teach them about Christ.  A few
years ago, they were ordered to produce a report on Masonry: they concluded
that it was not a religion, and therefore was outside their speciality.
However, Mr Holly led a movement of people who oppose Masonry, and
last year the Convention again ordered the HMB to study Masonry.  (I got the
feeling that they were saying "You got the wrong answer last time, try to
do better and get the answer we want.")

Anyway, there's been a bit of infighting and some inappropriate actions, but
the dust has settled and the report is in.  Nobody is entirely happy with it,
but everybody seems willing to live with it.  Both sides are saying things
such as: "This was the best we were going to get in the current environment."

The report commends the Masons for the charity work they do, such as the
hospitals and burn centers they operate, as well as efforts to help the
elderly and prevent drug abuse.  The report acknowledges that many well-
known Christians are and have been Masons, and notes that many teachings
of Masonry are "supportive of Christian faith and practice".  Examples of
the latter include belief in God, emphases on honesty and integrity, and
that some Masonic lodges incorporate explicit Christian beliefs.

On the other hand, they note that some aspects of Masonry are incompatible
with Southern Baptist principles.  These included the use of titles which some
people consider sacrilegious, the taking of certain oaths (even though they
are not meant seriously), the "undeniably pagan and/or occultic" writings of
some Masonic leaders, the implication in some Masonic writings that salvation
can be achieved by good works, and the racial discrimination practiced by many
Masonic lodges.  (I note with some chagrin that Baptist churches as a whole
aren't really in a place to speak on this last point.)

The report concludes that Masonry is not a religion, and says that membership
should not be endorsed or censured, but left to the discretion of individuals.
This was in part because there is variation among different Masonic Lodges,
and while one may include elements strongly against Christianity, another may
not.  Many Southern Baptists have strong convictions about the priesthood of
the believer and the autonomy of the local church, and this history probably
influenced how the report came out.

 *

The information above was gleaned from "The Religious Herald", a publication
of the Baptist General Association of Virginia, and "Baptists Today", which
does not have any direct links to a religious organisation.  (Autonomy is a
big issue among some Baptists.  8-)

Because I have neither the report itself, nor whatever Masonic documents are
relevant to these issues, none of the above comes with a guarantee.  Your
mileage may vary.  Void where prohibited.

Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.rowan.edu

Milton:  "We use only the finest baby frogs, dew picked and flown from Iraq,
          cleansed in finest quality spring water, lightly killed, and then
          sealed in a succulent Swiss quintuple smooth treble cream milk
          chocolate envelope and lovingly frosted with glucose."

[ description of experiment deleted ]

[ more deleted ]

A few years ago a friend and I took some 256 grey-level photos from
a 1 bit Mac Plus screen using this method. Displaying all 256 levels
synchronized to the 60Hz display took about 10 seconds. After
experimenting with different aperture settings and screen
brightnesses we found a range that worked well, giving respectable
contrast. The quality of the images was pretty good. There were no
visible contrast bands.

To minimize the exposure time the display program built 255
different 1 bit frames. The first contained a dot only for pixels
that had value 255, the second only for pixels that had value 254,
etc. These frames were stored using a sparse data structure that was
very fast to 'or' onto the screen in sequence. Creating these
frames sometimes took 5-10 minutes on that old Mac, but the camera
shutter was closed during that time anyway. And yes, we wrote
directly to the screen memory. Mea culpa.

Our biggest problem was that small images were displayed in the
top left corner of the screen instead of the center. It took
an extra week to have the film developed and printed, because the
processors took the trouble to manually move the all images into
the center of the print. Who'd have guessed?

#In article <93109.231733ISSCCK@BYUVM.BITNET> "Casper C. Knies" <ISSCCK@BYUVM#.B
#>As a Latter-day Saint, I found John's statement *not at all* ludicrous...
#>
#>Please allow me to explain myself.  In 1838, the governor of Missouri,
#>governor Boggs, issued his so-called "Mormon extermination order."  The
#>only crime ("illegal activity") the Latter-day Saints had committed, was
#>their religious affiliation, their anti-slave stance (Missouri still
#>allowed slave practices), and their growing numbers/influence in Missouri.
#>
#>I guess the Mormons "got what they deserved," because they refused to bow
#>to the will of (corrupt and evil) secular authorities. This "disobedience"
#>brought upon them persecution, murder, and finally forced expulsion from
#>their lands and settlements...
#
#It is significant to remember that these secular positions were held by
#"average" people, and that at the time, almost all Americans were pretty
#homogeonously Christian. It was largely the mainstream Christian's disgust
#at such practices as polygamy which resulted in their irrational hatred.

True, but that is exactly the "problem": the Mormon extermination order
was issued not just by a Christian, it was ALLOWED under the Constitution
of the United States, which was instituted precisely to prevent incidents
like this "order" from occurring in the first place...  As I indicated in
an earlier posting, your "irrational hatred" is clearly evidenced by
individuals like Robert Weiss (who could have been Gov. Boggs' Lieutenant;
he would have fitted right in, drewling et al), and seems a modern-day
occurrence, based on results (slander, persecution, misrepresentation,
lies, denying Mormons representation in their own user group, etc. etc.

In intent and purpose, what really has changed?

#The situation is not entirely different today.  Many irrational feelings
#and beliefs are justified through religion.  I don't think most of them
#are started because of religion, but religion certainly helps justify and
#perpetuate prejudices and practices by providing a neat justification
#which discourages critical thought.

True, as evidenced by numerous examples, as I am sure you're aware.

#>In any regard, Mormon history alone indicates that secular authorities (and
#>I don't even discuss how Uthan's were suckered into allowing part of their
#>lands in becoming nerve-gas and atomic bomb testing grounds...) is far from
#>being trusted or righteous.  Have things really changed for the better?  I
#>may be a born cynic, but I have NO reason whatsoever that such has been the
#>case. In the early 1980s, I believe, the late President Kimball (lds church
#>leader) strongly protested federal attempts to locate the MX-"Peace Keeper"
#>missile maze from being built in Utah (yet another "inspired" decision from
#secular authorities).  Fortunately, his opposition was influential enough
#for the feds to back off.
#
#Do you mean that the "secular authorities" are some continuous group of
#people with the common and uninterrupted goal of harrassing/eradicating the
#Mormons?  Do you honestly believe that the main reason for using Utah for
#nuclear testing etc.. was to "get them thar Mormons"?  And what about the
#majority of Uthan's who aren't Mormons?  You seem to be searching for enemy
 ^^^^^^^^
(Correction: the majority of Utahn's ARE Mormon (60-70% I believe, up to a
 100% in many cities and settlements throughout the Western states.)

#conspiracies.  It is paranoid to believe that everything that affects you
#badly must have been done primarily for that purpose.

What I mean is that secular authorities are to be watched, as we believe
that Satan has been given some power and dominion over the earth to divert
truth, judgment, and justice.  In addition, we believe that the adversary
has power to influence the unjust and idolatrous (greed for money would be
a good example) in order to bring about persecution, war, oppression, and
evil combinations.  As an intelligent being, don't you suppose that the
destroyer would yield his influence foremost on those with political power?

As far as Utah is concerned, what I pointed out were some horrible examples
of environmental nightmares imposed upon by secular authorities, which have
brought death, disease, (i.e. the "downwinders") and environmental contami-
nation.  I am hardly "paranoid," I am just not "expecting" too much from a
secular government that may not share our values and faith, and which indeed
(as Gov. Boggs et al.) may be out to harm and destroy us.  As a matter of
fact, prophecies in my church indicate that in future years, (global)
persecution against Mormons will so increase in intensity and scope, that
(paraphrasing) "all those who wish to escape persecution and murder must
flee to Zion."  Zion (the "pure in heart") will be re-established in those
days, and it AIN'T our current secular authorities who will rule over it...

#>...  David Koresh did NOT pose a great
#>threat to the federal authorities or the security of this nation, and with
#>John, I too wonder who or what's next...
#
#I personally feel that we should try to stop anyone who is a threat to the
#life of even one person.  Sure, he did not pose a threat to the security of
#this nation.  But he did pose a threat to the lives of his followers.  That
#much is definite.

Hmmm.  "definite" by whom?  --Until such has been established beyond reason-
able doubt, this alleged "threat" may have been less than the "threat"
imposed upon him and his followers by the BATF and FBI...

#>Who killed who?  What constitutional right did the ATF officers have to
#>invade upon private land and to force themselves into the compound?
#>What REALLY caused the "murder" of the little children?  Could it be that
#>the ATF/FBI presence has any bearing upon the events?  How would you
#>interpret the Mt. Masada events?  --Blame the Jews?  (What the heck did
#>the Romans do there anyway?  What business did the ATF/FBI has in Waco,
#>Texas???)  The Branch Davidians NEVER posed any threat to society.
#
#This is like asking who REALLY caused the deaths of the Israeli Olympic
#team in 1976?  In that case, the police botched the job as well.  But to
#lay a heavier burden on them than the terrorists would be a terrible
#mistake.  I think the same sort of reasoning applies in this case.
#Certainly, if David Koresh chose any peaceful option, the ATF and FBI
#would have complied.  The responsibility is more his than the authorities.

Come now, at issue is in how much the authorities escalated an otherwise
peaceful stand-off: "let's get it over with, and "force" David Koresh to
come out???"  --By gassing them???  Were they naive, or what?  They played
right into the hands of an apocalyptic-thinking individual (he had prepared
his people for this eventuality for years), and not *one* firetruck or plan
was in place to deal with this scenario???  I feel that the authorities
had "some" responsibility to protect their own citizens, even if they were
religious zealots, and guilty of ... not paying a $200 gun license???
(Has the BATF become an extension of the local tax-collectors?)

#>David Koresh, no doubt, will be described as the "evil" guy (by the
#>executioners), while the actions of all those "valiant and brave" officers
#
#Characterizing the ATF/FBI as executioners is inaccurate and unfair.  In
#order to be an executioner, the least one must have done is have the intent
#to kill.

Que?? --Intrusion into private property with semi's, loaded with life
ammunition, isn't that implicit "intent (or at least "prepared") to kill"?
I ask you, would the BATF warrant stand up in a civil court of justice?
I do not mind if criminals (such as dangerous drug lords) are brought to
justice, but escalating events to the point of allowing to, if not compli-
city with, the destruction of a people?

#--
#*Isaac Kuo (isaackuo@math.berkeley.edu)                   *        _____
#*"How lucky you English are to find the toilet so amusing.* ______//_o_\\__
#* For us, it is a mundane and functional item.  For you,  *(==(/___________
#* the basis of an entire culture!" Manfred von Richtofen  * \==\/         \

Is there a precompiled version of hp2xx for DOS out there - prefereably
for 386/486?

I have received my copies of Cosmonautics 1990 and
Cosmonautics 1991, as well as Soviet Space 1990 and Space
Station [MIR] Handbook from Aerospace Ambassadors with no
problem.
     I'm getting ready to FAX them some material in Huntsville,
and I'll include a printout of your inquiry.

At one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk 
(Alexei Leonov ?) was a staged fake.

Has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged ?

Was this claim perhaps another fevered Cold War hallucination ?

This is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff *returns to earth*.

If this turns out to be true, it's time to get seriously active in
terrorism. This is unbelievable! Who do those people think they are,
selling every bit that promises to make money? I guess we really
deserve being wiped out by uv radiation, folks. "Stupidity wins". I
guess that's true, and if only by pure numbers.

	Another depressed planetary citizen,
	hoover

[ a lot of religious opinions and quotations from the Bible and from 
many Catholic theologians and Papal Bulls ]

[ which, although introduced with a smiley, was not as funny as it
might have been (notable exception: subject headers such as "ONE'S 
DICK IS ONE'S INSTRUMENT OF REDEMPTION." ]

[ and indeed, the posting seemed to be more a vehicle for the
religious text than for any "literary/moral analysis" ]

I am surprised and saddened. I would expect this kind of behavior
from the Evangelical Born-Again Gospel-Thumping In-Your-Face We're-
The-Only-True-Christian Protestants, but I have always thought 
that Catholics behaved better than this.

Friend Dennis, I urge you to follow the example of your fellow
Catholics, of who I count many dozens as my friends, and practice
your faith through good example and decent living and respect
for the common humanity of others. Please do not stoop to the
level of the E B-A G-T I-Y-F W-T-O-T-C Protestants, who think
that the best way to witness is to be strident, intrusive, loud,
insulting and overbearingly self-righteous.

The imagery in the Song of Solomon is a little bit dated (get it? 
Middle East - date palms - oh, never mind) but apparently acceptable, 
on a steaminess level, to be accepted as part of the canon. From
this fact I derive that erotica itself is not incompatible with
Catholic doctrine.

Is there such a thing as Catholic erotica? Not necessarily a love
story between people of that faith, but a love story that is not
exploitative, does not seek redemption through penis size, pays
proper respect to the dignity of each partner, and is still erotic
enough to have a place on a.s.s.

I would submit that the _Darknites_ series of stories qualify, also
most of the _Journal Entries_, and _Rings I and II_.

I would guess that your aim is to cut down on the pornography and
increase the erotica. I actually agree with you that nearly all of
the "I've got an enormous dick, and I shot my wad all over her face"
stories are crap. I count them as noise, which makes my take on the
signal-to-noise ration much lower than many other people's.

Since you are one of the few posters here who can actually write 
decent prose, could you write a few stories for us instead of
overwhelming us with commentary?  

-- 
Thank you.

Feasability study??  What a wimp!!  While you are studying, others would be
doing.  Too damn many engineers doing way too little engineering.

"He who sits on his arse sits on his fortune"  - Sir Richard Francis Burton

To all a.a readers:
     I have been asked be several of you to post a list of the SDA Church's 
27 Fundamental beliefs.  I warn you now, it's a long list.  However, I'll 
post it on Sunday.  Sabbath is coming up soon so I won't be reading on 
Saturday.  And I don't have time to do it now.
     I would GREATLY appreciate it if you would keep me in touch with what's 
going on.
     I hope all of you have a reastful and relaxing weekend.  I hope it's 
the best one so far!!

I finally got a 24 bit viewer for my POVRAY generated .TGA files.

It was written in C by Sean Malloy and he kindly sent me a copy.  He
wrote it for the same purpose, to view .TGA files using his SpeedStar 24.

It ONLY works with the SpeedStar 24 and I cannot send copies since it is
not my program.  I believe the author may release a version at a future
time when the program is more developed.   He may or may not comment on
this, as he pleases.

Thanks to all who were helpful.

Regards,

Try xviewgl.
(filename xviewgl_v1.1.tar.Z on lots of bases)

- Ove

Hi,
    I was reading through "The Spaceflight Handbook" and somewhere in
there the author discusses solar sails and the forces acting on them
when and if they try to gain an initial acceleration by passing close to
the sun in a hyperbolic orbit. The magnitude of such accelerations he
estimated to be on the order of 700g. He also says that this is may not
be a big problem for manned craft because humans (and this was published
in 1986) have already withstood accelerations of 45g. All this is very
long-winded but here's my question finally - Are 45g accelerations in
fact humanly tolerable? - with the aid of any mechanical devices of
course. If these are possible, what is used to absorb the acceleration?
Can this be extended to larger accelerations?

==============================================================================
Bear with me i'm new at this game, but could anyone explain exactly what DMORF
does, does it simply fade one bitmap into another or does it re shape one bitma
p into another. Please excuse my ignorance, i' not even sure if i've posted thi
s message correctly.

In <lsran6INN14a@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric 

Huh?  Please explain.  Is there a problem because I based my morality on 
something that COULD be wrong?  Gosh, there's a heck of a lot of stuff that I 
believe that COULD be wrong, and that comes from sources that COULD be wrong. 
What do you base your belief on atheism on?  Your knowledge and reasoning? 
COuldn't that be wrong?

MAC
--

To everyone who wants fonts in Vivid/POV/Polyray.
The Borland BGI font converter is VVFONT18.ZIP.
This program can be found on FTP.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE directory
pub/dkbtrace/utils.
Also WUARCHIVE has mirrored this site (directory graphics/graphics/mirrors/
ftp.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/pub/dkbtrace/utils.
There are more nice utilities present in this directory.
A new version of Polyray 1.6 (for those asked for it) can be found on the 
same sites but in the directory INCOMING instead of UTILS (PLY16386).
Also in this directory POVSHELL and PV3DV060 could be found.
Have a nive raytrace time.
Peter

How about brass or silver?  I've seen real chessboards that use that material.

Right here is as good a place as any.  Can't wait to see it.  I use the POV
raytracer - is it compatible enough for your chessboard?

     "I don't know if you've got the whole picture or not, but it doesn't 
      seem like he's running on all thrusters!" -- Leonard McCoy

     "A guess?  You, Spock?  That's extraordinary!" -- James T. Kirk

I'm curious about this statement, is it a known understanding amongst
Christian believers that people who don't understand the Christian
doctrines are enjoying this state? I come from a background with 
a heavy Christian teaching (Lutheran church), and consider myself
knowledgeable with the basic understandings of Christianity. At the 
same time I'm *not* proud of things I don't understand or know of at
this point of time. Ignorance is not bliss!

Cheers,
Kent

This book is worth a read to get a sensible view of this issue.

The book is in two sections.  Section 1 contains a fairly reasonable
analysis of the Bible, showing many inconsistencies between the Bible
and modern science.  Well we all know that, no surprises.

Section 2 analyses the Koran's version of the Old Testament stories,
and seems, on the face of it, to present a good case showing the Koran
is consistent with modern science.  However, it was plain to me, that
this consistency was only possible by the vague phraseology of the
Koran.  Take the flood, for example, the bible is full of detail,
("forty days and forty nights", "pair of every animal", etc.), we all
know this is nonsense.  The Koran's description of the same event is
so obscure as to make possible an interpretation such as "A big river 
flooded for a few days and caused much damage".  Yes, no contradiction
but also not much fact.

The Koran might be consistent with modern science, but being
consistent due to its vagueness compared with other books of that
time, does not seem much of an achievement.

The book concludes by saying something like, the Koran must have had
divine inspiration because at the time it was written there were a lot
of (to us now) ridiculous ideas about the universe, and none of them
can be found in the Koran!  Arguing for the greatness of a book by
talking about what it does not contain seems absurd in the extreme.

The above is, of course, from memory so I may have missed some points.

-- 

When I was at the Texas Star Party a few years ago, the sky was so dark
that Venus did, indeed, cause light pollution until it set.

Even if the billboard were dark it could cause a problem.  Imagine observing an
object and halfway through your run, your object was occulted!

I would guess that most of the people stating positive opinions are not 
fanatically serious observers.

It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
wants of the majority, no matter how ridiculous those wants might be.
 
-- 

I don't think we need to argue about this.

Yes, but also many people who are not trying to make government recognize
Christianity as the dominant religion in this country do no think
the motto infringes upon the rights of others who do not share their
beliefs.

And actually, I think that the government already does recognize that
Christianity is the dominant religion in this country.  I mean, it is.
Don't you realize/recognize this?

This isn't to say that we are supposed to believe the teachings of
Christianity, just that most people do.

If you agree with me, then what are we discussing?

No, but I hear quite a bit about Christmas, and little if anything about
Jesus.  Wouldn't this figure be more prominent if the holiday were really
associated to a high degree with him?  Or are you saying that the
association with Jesus is on a personal level, and that everyone thinks
about it but just never talks about it?

That is, can *you* prove that most people *do* associate Christmas
most importantly with Jesus?

I think the numbers *do* matter.  It takes a majority, or at least a
majority of those in power, to discriminate.  Doesn't it?

1.  Did you read the FAQs?

2.  If NO, Read the FAQs.

3.  IF YES, you wouldn't have posted such drivel.  The "Lord, Liar
    or Lunatic" argument is a false trilemma.  Even if you disprove
    Liar and Lunatic (which you haven't), you have not eliminated
    the other possibilities, such as Mistaken, Misdirected, or
    Misunderstood.  You have arbitrarily set up three and only
    three possibilities without considering others.

4.  Read a good book on rhetoric and critical thinking.  If
    you think the "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" discussion is an
    example of a good argument, you are in need of learning.

5.  Read the FAQs again, especially "Constructing a Logical
    Argument."

Ignore these instructions at your peril.  Disobeying them
leaves you open for righteous flaming.

-- 

...

Seen that movie already. Or one just like it.
Come to think of it, they might send someone on
a quest to get rid of the dang thing...

	Perhaps we ought not to have supported a known genocidist?
	Provided him with weapon systems, tactical support, technology,
etc.

	We made Suddam Hussein.

	What did Bush call him? Oh yes, an ally and a freind.

---  

The General Chairman is Paul Bialla, who is some official of General
Dynamics.

The emphasis seems to be on a scaled-down, fast plan to put *people*
on the Moon in an impoverished spaceflight-funding climate. You'd
think it would be a golden opportunity to do lots of precusor work for
modest money using an agressive series of robot spacecraft, but
there's not a hint of this in the brochure.

You're not hanging out with the Right People, apparently.

This isn't inherently bad.

This isn't really light pollution since it will only
be visible shortly before or after dusk (or during the
day).

(Of course, if night only lasts 2 hours for you, you're probably going
to be inconvienenced. But you're inconvienenced anyway in that case).

Finally: this isn't the Bronze Age, and most of us aren't Indo
European; those people speaking Indo-Eurpoean languages often have
much non-indo-european ancestry and cultural background. So:
please try to remember that there are more human activities than
those practiced by the Warrior Caste, the Farming Caste, and the
Priesthood.

And why act distressed that someone's found a way to do research
that doesn't involve socialism?

It certianly doesn't mean we deserve to die.

The idea is to clip one polygon using another polygon (not
necessarily rectangular) as a window.  My problem then is in
finding out all the new vertices of the resulting "subpolygons"
from the first one.  Is this simply a matter of extending the
usual algorithm whereby each of the edges of one polygon is checked
against another polygon???  Is there a simpler way??

Comments welcome.

So we have this highly Christian religious order that put fire
on their house, killing most of the people inside.

I'm not that annoyed about the adults, they knew supposedly what
they were doing, and it's their own actions.

What I mostly are angry about is the fact that the people inside,
including mothers, let the children suffer and die during awful
conditions.

If this is considered religious following to the end, I'm proud
that I don't follow such fanatical and non-compassionate religions.

You might want to die for whatever purpose, but please spare
the innocent young ones that has nothing to do with this all.

I have a hard time just now understanding that Christianity
knows about the word compassion. Christians, do you think 
the actions today would produce a good picture of your 
religion?

Kent

Well, first you work out how much cold gas you need, then make the
tanks big enough.

Working out how much cold gas is another problem, depending on
vehicle configuration, flight duration, thruster Isp (which couples
into storage pressure, which may be a factor in selecting tank
wall thickness etc.)

Jesus also recognized other holy days, like the Passover.  Acts 15 says 
that no more should be layed on the Gentiles than that which is necessary.
The sabbath is not in the list, nor do any of the epistles instruct people
to keep the 7th day, while Christians were living among people who did not
keep the 7th day.  It looks like that would have been a problem.

Instead, we have Scriptures telling us that all days can be esteemed alike
(Romans 14:5) and that no man should judge us in regard to what kind of
food we eat, Jewish holy days we keep, or _in regard to the sabbath. (Col. 2.)

I don't think that the Sabbath, or any other command of the law is totally
irrelevant to modern Christians, but what about Collosions 2, where it says
that we are not to be judged in regard to the keeping of the sabbath?

Koff!  You mean that as long as I put you to sleep first,
I can kill you without being cruel?

This changes everything.

The observation that the Tree of Life would rotate clockwise in the
northern hemisphere and counterclockwise in the southern probably doesn't
give enough consideration to the feebleness of the Coriolis force compared
to, say, the phototropism of vegetation.  A much more likely explanation
is the classic one: that the clockwise swastika is the Sun-wheel, because
the sun progresses across the sky that way.  (Although that's not the
historical way it happened; clocks were first made as little imitation
images of the sun moving thru the heavens.  So it's more valid to talk of
the clock going sunwise, but do the engineers listen to me?  Of course
not.)  Anyway, there is still much uncertainty about whether the
anti-swastika goes counter-sunwise because that represents Evil, or
because it is the Sun's twin-opposite, the Moonwheel.  The use of anti-Sun
to represent Evil may be because humans are so strongly visually-oriented,
but I'm not going to try to settle THAT one just now.
-- Diccon Frankborn (dickeney@access.digex.com)

No, I say religious law applies to those who are categorized as
belonging to the religion when event being judged applies. This
prevents situations in which someone is a member of a religion
who, when charged, claims that he/she was _not_ a member of the
religion so they are free to go on as if nothing had happened.

    Yes, please create the group alt.raytrace soon!!
I'm hooked on pov.
geez. like I don't have anything better to do....
OH!! dave letterman is on...

I think that domestication will change behavior to a large degree.
Domesticated animals exhibit behaviors not found in the wild.  I
don't think that they can be viewed as good representatives of the
wild animal kingdom, since they have been bred for thousands of years
to produce certain behaviors, etc.

Portuguese launch complex??? Gosh.... Polish are for American in the 
same way as Portuguese are for Brazilians (I am from Brazil). There is 
a joke about the Portuguese Space Agency that wanted to send a 
Portuguese  astronaut to the surface of the Sun (if there is such a thing).
How did they solve all problems of sending a man to the surface of the 
Sun??? Simple... their astronauts travelled during the night...

     If you have the GRASP animation system, then yes, it's quite easy.
You simply use GLIB to extract the image (each "frame" in a .GL is
actually a complete .PCX or .CLP file), then use one of MANY available
utilities to convert it.  If you don't have the GRASP package, I'm afraid
I can't help you.  Sorry.
     By the way, before you ask, GRASP (GRaphics Animation System for
Professionals) is a commercial product that sells for just over US$300
from most mail-order companies I've seen.  And no, I don't have it.  :)
 
                                               Corey Webb
 
I sure did use version 3.2. It works fine with most software but NOT
with Animator Pro and that one is quite important to me. Pretty
useless program without that thing working IMHO.
So I hope the author can fix that.

/Daniel...

It was no criticism of Islam for a change, it was a criticism of the
arguments used. Namely, whenever people you identify as Muslims are
the victims of the attacks of others, they are used an argument for
the bad situation of Muslims. But whenever deeds by Muslim that victimize
others are named, they do not count as an argument because what these
people did was not done as a true Muslims. No mention is made how Muslims
are the cause of a bad situation of another party.

Hmmmm....  The prefix "peri-" is Greek, not Latin, so it's usually used
with the Greek form of the name of the body being orbited.  (That's why
it's "perihelion" rather than "perisol", "perigee" rather than "periterr",
and "pericynthion" rather than "perilune".)  So for Jupiter I'd expect it
to be something like "perizeon".)   :^)

Wow.  I was beginning to think that I had made that up.  I remember that
movie (it was about 1.5 hours long).  I don't think they ended up anywhere
in the known universe.  

I remember they got a message halfway out to Proxima Centauri, that Earth
transmitted a day after they launched, timed to catch up with them at the
halfway point.  I thought it was neat, I think I was all of 10 at the time.

Space:1999 has just come out with 4 episodes released in American stores.
I will look for the Into Infinity show, I never did know that was the
name of it, I thought the show was called "the day after tomorrow", and
that was it.

Other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such..
Why not?? If you can put them on "safe" "pause" mode.. why not have them be
activated by a signal from a space craft (manned?) to act as a naviagtion
beacon, to take a directional plot on??

Contact:   WATCHMAN FELLOWSHIP
           P.O. Box 171194
           Holladay, UT 84117-1194

I have a nice quote that I like (or as close as I can remember it).

If I say something that you think is crazy, ask me what I mean before you think
its crazy.. 

So some of my ideas are a bit odd, off the wall and such, but so was Wilbur and
Orville Wright, and quite a few others.. Sorry if I do not have the big degrees
and such, but I think (I might be wrong, to error is human) I have something
that is in many ways just as important, I have imagination, dreams. And without
dreams all the knowledge is worthless.. 

Sorry my two cents worth. Or is it two rubles worth?

The basic quote idea is from H. Beam Pipers book "Space Vikings". Its a good
book on how civilization can fall, and how it can be raised to new heights.

Or he was just convinced by religious fantasies of the time that he was the
Messiah, or he was just some rebel leader that an organisation of Jews built
into Godhood for the purpose off throwing of the yoke of Roman oppression,
or.......

Are the Moslem fanatics who strap bombs to their backs and driving into
Jewish embassies dying for the truth (hint: they think they are)? Were the
NAZI soldiers in WWII dying for the truth? 

People die for lies all the time.

Was Hitler a liar? How about Napoleon, Mussolini, Ronald Reagan? We spend
millions of dollars a year trying to find techniques to detect lying? So the
answer is no, they wouldn't be able to tell if he was a liar if he only lied
about some things.

Why do you think he healed people, because the Bible says so? But if God
doesn't exist (the other possibility) then the Bible is not divinely
inspired and one can't use it as a piece of evidence, as it was written by
unbiased observers.

Were Hitler or Mussolini lunatics? How about Genghis Khan, Jim Jones...
there are thousands of examples through history of people being drawn to
lunatics.

So we obviously cannot rule out liar or lunatic not to mention all the other
possibilities not given in this triad.

Possibly self-fulfilling prophecy (ie he was aware what he should do in
order to fulfil these prophecies), possibly selective diting on behalf of
those keepers of the holy bible for a thousand years or so before the
general; public had access. possibly also that the text is written in such
riddles (like Nostradamus) that anything that happens can be twisted to fit
the words of raving fictional 'prophecy'.

             [stuff about how hard it is to be a christian deleted]

I severely recommend you reconsider the reasons you are a christian, they
are very unconvincing to an unbiased observer.

I would hardly consider the BD's to be Christian.  They were acting in
direct contradiction to scripture.  Jesus' Second Coming is something
that everyone will know of.  Jesus also predicted that there will be
false Messiahs who will use His name.  His prophecy has been fulfilled.

I agree with you there.
 
Me too.  I have already given my life to God.  If God tells me to lay
down my life, it will be to save another life.
 
Do you judge all Christians by the acts of those who would call
themselves Christian and yet are not?  The BD's contradicted scripture
in their actions.  They were NOT Christian.  Simple as that.  Perhaps
you have read too much into what the media has portrayed.  Ask any
true-believing Christian and you will find that they will deny any
association with the BD's.  Even the 7th Day Adventists have denied any
further ties with this cult, which was what they were.

Do you judge all Muslims by the acts committed by Saddam Hussein, a 
supposedly devout Muslim?  I don't.  Saddam is just a dictator using
the religious beliefs of his people to further his own ends.

Malcolm Lee   :)

Hello,

Can anybody help me with the conversion of pic format files
to HPGL files. The question is as follows:

Is it possible to convert files that have been generated in the
pic preprocessor format into HPGL format, suitable for sending
to a plotter. The hardware involved is IBM RISC/6000 running AIX
3.2.3. How should this be done and what software is involved,
where is it available, what does it cost, what are the problems?

Regards,

Dani

--------------------------------
Cimad Consultants
Antwerp, Belgium
dani@cimad.be

RADIOSITY SOURCES WANTED !!!
============================

When I read the comp.graphics group, I never found something about 
radiosity. Is there anybody interested in out there? I would be glad 
to hear from somebody.
I am looking for source-code for the radiosity-method. I have already
read common literature, e. g.Foley ... . I think little examples could 
help me to understand how radiosity works. Common languages ( C, C++, 
Pascal) prefered.
I hope you will help me!

Tom's right about this.  It's only a grantable right if the granter has
the will and the ability to stop anyone from taking it away from you.
Never mind the legal status.

Nick's right about this.  It's always easier to obtain forgiveness than
permission.  Not many people remember that Britain's King George III
expressly forbid his american subjects to cross the alleghany/appalachian
mountains.  Said subjects basically said, "Stop us if you can."  He
couldn't.

That's how the USA started.  Of course, that's also how the Bolivarian
Republic started (ca. 1800-1820) in central america.  It didn't have
quite the staying power of the USA.  I'm sure there are more examples of
going far away and then ignoring authority, but none jump to mind right
now.

Or do as some whaling nations do: define whatever activities you want to
carry out as "scientific research" which just coincidentally requires
the recovery of megatonnes of minerals (or whatever), then go at it.

Lute Keyser had just this sort of arrangement with Libya (I think) in
the late '70's for his commercial space launch project (one of the very
earliest).  It was killed by Soviet propaganda about NATO cruise
missiles in Africa, which made Libya renege on the arrangement.

	There is no notion of heliocentric, or even galacticentric either.

For those missing the context of this thrilling discussion between
Jim and I, Jim wrote the following to me in e-mail after I pointed out
that he (Jim) had taken a quote out of context:

He directed a similar accusation of hypocrisy, again based on a lack of
response to an article by Robert Weiss, toward Stephen.

I pointed out that I did, in fact, agree that both Robert Weiss and
Jim Meritt took quotes out of context.  Hence, I find it difficult to
understand why Jim thinks I am a hypocrite.  Needless to say, I don't
have time to reply to *every* article on t.r.m. that takes a quote
out of context.  

I asked Jim the following:

Jim replied by saying 

But today we find four articles from Jim, one of which has the subject
"Silence is concurrence":  

Which is, of course, a complete red herring.  Taking quotes out of
context isn't a crime.  I don't have time to read every article on
t.r.m., and I'm certainly under no obligation to reply to them all.

Does "silence is concurrence" imply that Jim thinks that because I
didn't respond to Weiss' articles I must condone Weiss' taking quotes
out of context?  Jim doesn't want to give a direct answer to this
question; read what he has written and decide for yourself.

But back to the context of my conversation with Jim.  Jim's next 
gambit was to claim that he was using inductive logic when he
concluded that I was being a hypocrite.  I challenged him to provide
the details of that logic that led him to an incorrect conclusion.
Today we find another obscure article (posting it twice didn't help
make it more clear, Jim), titled "Inductive Logic":

More red herrings.  Could Jim mean that he has read an uncountably large
number of my articles?  Could Jim mean that because I "axed" his articles,
but not Weiss' articles, he wants to conclude inductively ...
Well, I can't see where he is going with this.

But I can help him with his induction.  I've written roughly 80
articles since January.  The vast majority of them are discussions with
Frank DeCenso and other inerrantists, where I take the position that
they are making bad arguments.  Some are discussions with Jim Meritt
where I take the position that he is making bad arguments (a straw man
argument earlier, and taking quotes out of context more recently.)

Think hard about this Jim.  See the pattern?  Think harder.  Run it
through your induction engine and see what pops out.  

I thought that under emergency conditions,  the STS  can
put down at any good size Airport.  IF it could take a C-5 or a
747, then it can take an orbiter.   You just need a VOR/TAC

I don't know if they need ILS.

pat

: : Seems to me Koresh is yet another messenger that got killed
: : for the message he carried. (Which says nothing about the 
: : character of the messenger.) I reckon we'll have to find out
: : the rest the hard way.
: : 
: 
: Koresh was killed because he wanted lots of illegal guns.

Has anyone created any interesting animations using Dmorph
I seem to be unable to create anything that looks remotely
realistic although this is probably due to the crappy GIF's
at I am using (One of Captain Kirk and One of Spock), i'm a
bit of a 'Trekker'.  What are the best type of pictures to use.
thanks........
            A.Situnayake

Douglas Adams once said (paraphrased from memory): "I just picked it.  It
seemed like the sort of number you wouldn't be afraid to take home to meet
your parents.  Nice and even, perfectly normal."

As many people have mentioned, there is no reason why insurers could not
offer a contract without abortion services for a different premium.
The problem is that there is no guarantee that this premium would be
lower for those who chose this type of contract.  Although you are
removing one service, that may have feedbacks into other types of covered
care which results in a net increase in actuarial costs.

For an illustrative example in the opposite direction, it may be possible
to ADD services to an insurance contract and REDUCE the premium.  If you
add preventative services and this reduces acute care use, then the total
premium may fall.

Well, it looks like the folks in soc.religion.islam have loosened up
a bit and are discussing this topic as well as the banking/interest
topic.  A few books on the subject have also been mentioned in addition
to the one you mentioned.  These may be hard to find, but I think I may
take a stab at it out of curiosity.  I know the one film I saw on this
subject was pretty weak and the only two quotes I have seen which were
used to show science in the Koran (which I posted here) were also pretty 
vague.  I suspect that these books will extrapolate an awful lot on the
quotes they have.

At least one poster on the Islam channel seems to have some misgivings
about the practice of using the Koran to decide what is good science.

I wonder if Islam has ever come up with the equivalent of the Christians
"Creation Science" on any topic.  It would be interesting to find a history
of scientific interpretations of the Koran, to see if anyone used the Koran
to support earlier science which has since been discarded.  It is all too
easy to look at science as it exists today and then "interpret" passages
to match those findings.  People do similar things with the sayings of
Nostradamus all the time.

You're assuming that their normal rotation carries all areas of the surface
into sunlight.  Not so.  Even on Earth, each pole gets several weeks without
sunlight in mid-winter.  Pluto and Charon have much more extreme axial
tilt and a much longer orbit.  Pluto's north pole, for example, gets over
a century of darkness followed by over a century of perpetual light.

At the moment, we're in luck -- Pluto and Charon are just past their
equinox, when the Sun was just on the horizon at both poles (of each).
If we get probes there soon, only the immediate vicinity of one pole
(on each) will be in long-term shadow.  This will get steadily worse the
longer we wait.

How does that compare with JPEG on the same images and hardware as far
as size, speed, and image quality are concerned?

Despite my skeptical and sometimes nearly rabid postings
criticizing Barnsley and company, I am very interested in the
technique.  If I weren't I probably wouldn't be so critical. :-)

Glad to see Griffin is spending his time on engineering rather than on
ritual purification of the language.  Pity he got stuck with the turkey
rather than one of the sensible options.

What about the ELSA WINNER4000 (S3 928, Bt485, 4MB, EISA), or the
Metheus Premier-4VL (S3 928, Bt485, 4MB, ISA/VL) ?

As it just happens, SGCS has a Xserver (X386 1.4) that does
1024x768x24 on those cards. Please email to info@sgcs.com for more
details.

- Thomas
--

There are no Mariner craft from which we are still receiving data.  I believe
you are referring to one or more of Pioneers 6 through 9 (launched from
December 1965 through November 1968), which were put into solar orbits to study
interplanetary space.  I recall reading that at least one of them was still
functioning 25 years after launch.

Note the Followup-To: header ...

On my SVR4 Amiga Unix box, I've got -lform, -lmenu, and -lpanel for
use with the curses library.  Guess what they provide? :-)

Unix Press, ie. Prentice-Hall, has a programmer's guide for these
tools, referred to as the FMLI (Forms Mgmt Language Interface) and
ETI (Extended Terminal Interface), now in it's 2nd edition.  It is
ISBN 0-13-020637-7.

Paraphrased from the outside back cover:

    FMLI is a high-level programming tool for creating menus, forms,
    and text frames.  ETI is a set of screen management library
    subroutines that promote fast development of application programs
    for window, panel, menu, and form manipulation.

The FMLI is a shell package which reads ascii text files and produces
screen displays for data entry and presentation.  It consists of a
"shell-like" environment of the "fmli" program and it's database
files.  It is section 1F in the Unix Press manual.

The ETI are subroutines, part of the 3X manual section, provide
support for a multi-window capability on an ordinary ascii terminal
with controls built on top of the curses library.

[Lots of stuff about how the commerical moonbase=fantasyland]

Then what do you believe will finally motivate people to leave the  
earth?  I'm not trying to flame you.  I just want to know where you  
stand.

-Chuck
---
*******************************************************************

	Chuck Chung				(919) 660-2539 (O)
	Duke University Dept. of Physics	(919) 684-1517 (H)
	Durham, N.C.      27706			cchung@phy.duke.edu
	
	"If pro is the opposite of con, 
		then what is the opposite of progress?"

Oh, Bobby. You're priceless. Did I ever tell you that?

My policy with Bobby's posts, should anyone give a damn, is to flick
through the thread at high speed, searching for posts of Bobby's which
have generated a whole pile of followups, then go in and extract the
hilarious quote inevitably present for .sig purposes. Works for me.

For the guy who said he's just arrived, and asked whether Bobby's for real,
you betcha. Welcome to alt.atheism, and rest assured that it gets worse.
I have a few pearls of wisdom from Bobby which I reproduce below. Is anyone
(Keith?) keeping a big file of such stuff?

     "In Allah's infinite wisdom, the universe was created from nothing,
        just by saying "Be", and it became. Therefore Allah exists."
           --- Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah, #1

     "Wait. You just said that humans are rarely reasonable. Doesn't that
      contradict atheism, where everything is explained through logic and
      reason? This is THE contradiction in atheism that proves it false."
           --- Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah, #2

              "Plus, to the believer, it would be contradictory
                    to the Quran for Allah not to exist."
           --- Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah, #3

and now

   "One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say "Mom",
    because of the love of their mom. It makes for more virile men. Compare
    that with how homos are raised.  Do a study and you will get my point."
         -- Bobby Mozumder being Islamically Rigorous on alt.atheism

Mmmmm. Quality *and* quantity from the New Voice of Islam (pbuh).

Cheers

Simon

I would rather be at a higher risk of being killed than actually killed by
                              ^^^^                      ^^^^^^^^
mistake.  Though I do agree with the concept that the type D and E murderers
are a massive waste of space and resources I don't agree with the concept:

	killing is wrong
	if you kill we will punish you
	our punishment will be to kill you.

Seems to be lacking in consistency.

Hi net!
Due to further investigation I would like to study the following article:
	Peterson, "Ray tracing general B-Splines",
	Proc. ACM Mountain Regional Conference, April 1986
Unfortunately I didn't find it in any library's register.
If there is anyone having access to this paper or knowing about a
library containing those proceedings (preferrably in Germany), please 
let me know! Any help would be appreciated! 

Thanks a lot, 
Joerg Haber

  > 
  > I am looking for an algorithm to determine if a given point is bound by a 
  > polygon. Does anyone have any such code or a reference to book containing
  > information on the subject ?
  > 
  >                 Regards
  > 
  >                         Simon
  > 
/* +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
   |                                                                   |
   | Function    : PuntBinnenPolygoon                                  |
   |                                                                   |
   +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
   |                                                                   |
   | Auteur      : Cornelis Wessels                                    |
   |                                                                   |
   | Datum       : 11-01-1993                                          |
   |                                                                   |
   | Omschrijving: Bepaalt of de aangeboden VECTOR2D p binnen of op de |
   |               rand van het polygoon P valt.                       |
   |                                                                   |
   |                                                                   |
   | Wijzigingen : -                                                   |
   |                                                                   |
   +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ */

CLIBSTATUS PuntBinnenPolygoon ( POLYGOON *P, VECTOR2D *p )
  {
  VECTOR2D o, v, w;
  INDEX    aantal_snijpunten, N, n;

  aantal_snijpunten = 0;
  N                 = GeefPolygoonLengte(P);
  GeefPolygoonRandpunt ( P, N, &o );

  for ( n=1; n<=N; n++ )
    {
    GeefPolygoonRandpunt ( P, n, &v );

    if ( o.x >= p->x && v.x <  p->x ||
	 o.x <  p->x && v.x >= p->x  )
      {
      w.x = p->x;
      InterpoleerLineair ( &o, &v, &w );

      if ( w.x == p->x && w.y == p->y )
	return(CLIBSUCCES);
      else if ( w.y > p->y )
	aantal_snijpunten++;
      }

    KopieerVector2d ( &v, &o );
    }

  if ( aantal_snijpunten%2 == 0 )
    return(CLIBERBUITEN);
  else
    return(CLIBSUCCES);
  }

	Kudos to Mark for his generous offer, but there already exists a
large (email-based) forwarding system for sci.space posts:  Space Digest.
It mirrors sci.space exactly, and provides simple two-way communication.

	TO SUBSCRIBE:
	   Send the following message in the *body* (not subject) of an
	   email message:

		subscribe space John Q Public

	   to one of these addresses:

		listserv@uga
		listserv@uga.cc.uga.edu
		listserv@finhutc
		listserv@finhuc.hut.fi
		space-request@isu.isunet.edu

	   You'll receive all the posts in "digest" form once a day.  Please
	   use a listserv if you can, the "space-request" address is handled
	   manually.

	TO POST MESSAGES:
	   Send your message (with a reasonable Subject line) to:

		space@isu.isunet.edu

Questions, comments to space-request@isu.isunet.edu

prb@access.digex.com (Pat) Pontificated: 
What I was getting at in my post is whether or not it might be
possible to put enough brains on board future deep-space probes
for them to automatically avoid such things as looking at the
sun or going into an uncontrolled tumble.  

I heard once that the voyagers had a failsafe routine built in
that essentially says "If you never hear from Earth again,
here's what to do."  This was a back up in the event a receiver
burnt out but the probe could still send data (limited, but
still some data).  

Since this would be a shutdown that may never be refunded for
startup, if some type of cosmic BEM took out the probe, it might
not be such a big loss.  Obviously you can't plan for
everything, but the most obvious things can be considered.

Please , I need the starting address (pointer) for the beginning 
of the color information (RGB) on VGA mode 68h (that's 68 hex, gee, 
duh!)...

Thanks SOOOO much (hugs and kisses) in advance.....

Hi all,

I really thought that by now I would have seen something
about this, but I haven't, so here goes:  Last night on
the evening news, the anchorperson said something to the
effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
some sort rattling around apparently inside the case.  There
was no elaboration as to where specfically the item was
found, of what type of wrench it was, but the anchorperson
did say something about a NASA official commenting that
there would be an inquiry into how the thing got in the SSRB.

Has anybody else on the net whose info sources may be 
better than mine heard anything about this?  It seems rather
weird.

Bill says ...

I presume the one you refer to is "Space Sailing" by Jerome L. Wright.  He 
worked on solar sails while at JPL and as CEO of General Astronautics.  I'll
furnish ordering info upon request.

The Friedman book is called "Starsailing: Solar Sails and Interstellar Travel."
It was available from the Planetary Society a few years ago, I don't know if
it still is.

Hello netters!
 
I have a fairly weak question to ask everybody in netland.  I've looked though
the last FAQ for comp.graphics but I didn't find my answer.  Thus the post.
 
I'll keep it short.
 
QUESTION:  How do I display any raster files, gif files, iff or tiff images
that I have on my "root window" or background?  I have a sun ipc, openwindows
3.0, Sun OS 4.1.3 if that helps any.
 
I've compiled POV for the sun and would like to display some of the work I have
done as a background/tile.  Thanks for any help or information that you
provide.  Have a good day.
 
Scott Fleming
OSI

If you want to have some fun.

Plug the basic formulas  into Lotus.

Use the spreadsheet auto re-calc,  and graphing functions
to produce  bar graphs  based on latitude,  tilt  and hours of day light avg.

I have made this clear elsewhere but will do so again. Khomeini put a 
price on the head of someone in another country, this makes him a jerk
as well as an international outlaw. Khomeini advocates the view that
there was a series of twelve Islamic leaders (the Twelve Imams) who
are free of error or sin. This makes him a heretic. In the Qur'an 
Muhammad is chastised for error directly by God; the Qur'an says that
Muhammad is the greatest example of proper Islamic behavior; thus
no muslim is free from error. 

Perhaps it seems so to you, but this is hardly the case. There is
widespread agreement about matters of Islam. There certainly are
many viewpoints on issues which are not particularly Islamic in
and of themselves, but this is so for any large group of people
under the same name. 

The Qur'an is not particularly imprecise in wording, though it is true
that several interpretations are possible in the interpretations of
many words. However, as an entire text the Qur'an makes its meanings
precise enough for intelligent people free from power lust to come
to agreement about them. 

Actually, the idea, like most good ideas, comes from Jules Verne, not
_The Gods Must Be Crazy._  In one of his lesser known books (I can't
remember which one right now), the protagonists are in a balloon gondola,
travelling over Africa on their way around the world in the balloon, when
one of them drops a fob watch.  They then speculate about the reaction
of the natives to finding such a thing, dropped straight down from heaven.
But the notion is not pursued further than that.

Sorry, not so -- the changes in sunrise and sunset times are not
quite synchronized.  For example, neither the earliest sunrise nor the
latest sunset comes on the longest day of the year.

Hi Folks not exactly certain if this is the best place to ask, but I am
searching for a summer internship in engineering.  I will be graduating in early
 May with a B.S. in aerospace engineering and then pursuing my Masters this Fall
.Does anyone know of anything that is available, I am in the process of applyi
ng to some of the larger companies (ie. MacDac, Martin Marietta, Lockheed.  If a
nyone knows of anything I would appreciate it if you could mail it to me.

	A human has greater control over his/her actions, than a 
predominately instictive tiger.

	A proper analogy would be:

	If you are thrown into a cage with a person and get mauled, do you 
blame that person?

	Yes. [ providing that that person was in a responsible frame of 
mind, eg not clinicaly insane, on PCB's, etc. ]

---

        "One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that 
        say "Mom", because of the love of their mom.  It makes for more 
        virile men."

        Bobby Mozumder  ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu )
        April 4, 1993

Lets see what the dictionary has to say:

objective adj. 1. As having to do with a material object as distinguished
from a mental concept. 2. Having actual existance. 3.a. Uninfluenced
by emotion or personal prejudice. b. Based on observable phenomenon.

Excuse the sheer newbieness of this post, but I am looking for a decent
PaintProgram which will save to various file formats (.BMP  .PCX  etc etc)
via ftp, freeware, or shareware.  I would like to check out the available
programs for little $$ before I check out the commercial market.

Thanks in advance for any help or direction you can give me.

RB>   
RB>   No, that's praying on the young.  Preying on the young comes
RB>   later, when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the
RB>   priest really wears under that chasible.

The same thing Scotsmen where under there kilt.

I'll never forget the day when I was about tweleve and accidently
walked in on a roomfull of priests sitting around in their underware
drinking beer and watching football.  

Kind of changed my opinion a bit.  They didn't seem so menacing after
that.

Yes, and I do everyone else.  Why, you may wonder, don't I do 'Fred'?
Well, that would just be too *obvious*, wouldn't it?  Oh yeah, this
isn't my real name, either.  I'm actually Elvis.  Or maybe a lemur; I
sometimes have difficulty telling which is which.

-- 

I don't think speed has been determined, since it has never run on Intel chips.
But on the Amiga's Motorola Chips, it was one of the fastest true 'Ray Tracers'

I don't think Impulse would port it over and not take speed into consideration.

In terms of features, and learning curve... ALL that you stated for 3DS is also
true for Imagine, and lots more... But I'll have to admit that after 3 years of
use on the Amiga, the learning curve is very steep. This is due ONLY to the
manual. It is realy BAD. However, there is a lot of after market support for
this product, including regular 'Tips' articles in many magazines such as "AVID
and a great book by Steve Worley called "Understanding Imagine 2.0" This book i
is not just recommened, IT IS A MUST!

Are there significant differences between V2.01 and V2.00 ?
Thank you for helping

Marc.

Original to: keithley@apple.com
G'day keithley@apple.com

21 Apr 93 22:25, keithley@apple.com wrote to All:

 kc> keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley), via Kralizec 3:713/602

 kc> But back to the contest goals, there was a recent article in AW&ST
about a
 kc> low cost (it's all relative...) manned return to the moon.  A General
 kc> Dynamics scheme involving a Titan IV & Shuttle to lift a Centaur upper
 kc> stage, LEV, and crew capsule.  The mission consists of delivering two
 kc> unmanned payloads to the lunar surface, followed by a manned mission.
 kc> Total cost:  US was $10-$13 billion.  Joint ESA(?)/NASA project was
$6-$9
 kc> billion for the US share.

 kc> moon for a year.   Hmmm.  Not really practical.  Anyone got a
 kc> cheaper/better way of delivering 15-20 tonnes to the lunar surface
within
 kc> the decade?  Anyone have a more precise guess about how much a year's
 kc> supply of consumables and equipment would weigh?

Why not modify the GD plan into Zurbrin's Compact Moon Direct scheme? let
one of those early flight carry an O2 plant and make your own.

ta

Ralph

Is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the Army that deal
with space?  After I graduate, I will have a commitment to serve in the Army, 
and I would like to spend it in a space-related field.  I saw a post a long
time ago about the Air Force Space Command which made a fleeting reference to
its Army counter-part.  Any more info on that would be appreciated.  I'm 
looking for things like: do I branch Intelligence, or Signal, or other?  To
whom do I voice my interest in space?  What qualifications are necessary?
Etc, etc.  BTW, my major is computer science engineering.

Please reply to ktj@reef.cis.ufl.edu

I have an ATI Graph. Ultra Pro VLB w/2 megs, and have a small question
about Graphics Workshop for Windows.  When I exit from it it says my
current driver can handle on 32768 colors when I am actually in 
1024x768x65000 color mode.  Is this a driver problem, a GWS error, or
what?  I am using the 1.5(59) driver under Win 3.1.  It correctly
states that I can display 16M colors when I switch to 800x600x24bit,
though.
Another question- Anybody know of any Viewers that support this card
other than Windows viewers?
Any help would be appreciated.

: 
:   Nut or not, he was clearly a liar.  He said he would surrender after
:   local radio stations broadcast his message, but he didn't.  Then he
:   said he would surrender after Passover, but he didn't.
: 

I pondered it for all of ten seconds when I realised that since
we don't have any reliable statistics for sexual promiscuity,
and since the whole issue of "depression" isn't at all well 
defined for earlier centuries, you are probably talking crap.

Of course, you could pull a Mozumder on us, and say that people
who are having sex outside marriage are *defined* to be depressed.

I can't say I'd ever noticed, myself.

Tommy Frandsen's VGAlib (which is probably what you're talking about)
will do the standard VGA modes, some tweaked modes and then the Tseng
ET4000 Super VGA modes. I have an ET4000 and I'm viewing GIF's at
640x480/256 (I have a lousy/small monitor) with dpg-view on Linux. I
think I had to change some constants in the dpg-view sources to make it
use the ET4k modes.

VGAlib's sources seem to be designed for easy addition of new Super VGA
support; each mode is an array of register values and there's a program
that dumps an array declaration of this kind describing the current
mode. Haven't tried it though...

(Btw, my version of VGAlib is 1.2.)

Good statement! Should we apply empirical measurements to define exact
social morals? Should morals be based on social rules? On ancient
religious doctrines? It seems there will *NEVER* be a common and single
denominator for defining morals, and as such defining absolute
and objective morals is doomed to fail as long as humans have 
this incredible talent of creative thinking.

Cheers,
Kent

I aparantly mistyped the address for the ftp site which holds the images. The
correct address should be:

jupiter.csd.unb.ca
                ^^
rather than jupiter.csd.unb.edu.  They are in the directory:

\pub\library.info

#>So instead of calling it interest on deposits, you call it *returns on investements*
#>and instead of calling loans you call it *investing in business* (that is in other words
#>floating stocks in your company). 
#
#No, interest is different from a return on an investment.  For one
#thing, a return on an investment has greater risk, and not a set return
#(i.e. the amount of money you make can go up or down, or you might even
#lose money).  The difference is, the risk of loss is shared by the
#investor, rather than practically all the risk being taken by the
#borrower when the borrower borrows from the bank.
#

But is it different from stocks ?  If you wish to call an investor in stocks as
a banker, well then its your choice .....

#>Relabeling does not make it interest free !!
#
#It is not just relabeling, as I have explained above.

It  *is* relabeling ...
Also its still not interest free. The investor is still taking some money ... as
dividend on his investment ... ofcourse the investor (in islamic *banking*, its your
so called *bank*)  is taking more risk than the usual bank, but its still getting some
thing back in return .... 

Also have you heard of junk bonds ???

---Vinayak

Careful.  Making statements about how solid state is (generally) more
reliable than analog will get you a nasty follow-up from Tommy Mac or
Pat.  Wait a minute; you *are* Pat.  Pleased to see that you're not
suffering from the bugaboos of a small mind.  ;-)

-- 

J> YOU BLASHEPHEMERS!!! YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD!!!!  BE
J> PREPARED FOR YOUR ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!

Hmm, I've got my MST3K lunch box, my travel scrabble, and a couple of
kegs of Bass Ale.  I'm all set!  Let's go everybody! 

: Can anyone tell me where to find a MPEG viewer (either DOS or
: Windows).

: Thanks in advance.

: -- 
: Alan M. Jackson      Mail : ajackson@cch.cov.ac.uk

:      Liverpool Football Club - Simply The Best
:               "You'll Never Walk Alone"

You can find a Windows MPEG viewer at wuarchive.wustl.edu in the
mirrors/msdos/windows3 directory.

-- 

======================================================================
             NYC ACM/SIGGRAPH: UNDERSTANDING IMAGES

  SUBJECT:

    Pace University/SIGGRAPH Conference on UNDERSTANDING IMAGES
    ===========================================================

    The purpose of this conference is to bring together a breadth of
    disciplines, including the physical, biological and computational
    sciences, technology, art, psychology, philosophy, and education,
    in order to define and discuss the issues essential to image
    understanding within the computer graphics context.

    FEATURED TOPICS INCLUDE:

                Psychology/Perception
                Image Analysis
                Design
                Text
                Sound
                Philosophy

     DATE:  Friday & Saturday, 21-22 May 1993

     TIME:  9:00 am - 6:00 pm

    PLACE:  The Pace Downtown Theater
            One Pace Plaza
                (on Spruce Street between Park Row & Gold Street)
            NY, NY 10038

     FEES:

        PRE-REGISTRATION (Prior to 1 May 1993):
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            All Attendees   $95.00

        (Registration Fee Includes Brakfast, Breaks & Lunch)

    SEND REGISTRATION INFORMATION & FEES TO:

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DETAILED DESCRIPTION:
=====================

    Artists, designers, scientists, engineers and educators share the
    problem of moving information from one mind to another.
    Traditionally, they have used pictures, words, demonstrations,
    music and dance to communicate imagery.  However, expressing
    complex notions such as God and infinity or a seemingly well
    defined concept such as a flower can present challenges which far
    exceed their technical skills.

    The explosive use of computers as visualization and expression
    tools has compounded this problem.  In hypermedia, multimedia and
    virtual reality systems vast amounts of information confront the
    observer or participant.  Wading through a multitude of
    simultaneous images and sounds in possibly unfamiliar
    representions, a confounded user asks: "What does it all mean?"

    Since image construction, transmission, reception, decipherment and
    ultimate understanding are complex tasks, strongly influenced by
    physiology, education and culture; and, since electronic media
    radically amplify each processing step, then we, as electronic
    communicators, must determine the fundamental paradigms for
    composing imagery for understanding.

    Therefore, the purpose of this conference is to bring together a
    breadth of disciplines, including, but not limited to, the
    physical, biological and computational sciences, technology, art,
    psychology, philosophy, and education, in order to define and
    discuss the issues essential to image understanding within the
    computer graphics context.

    FEATURED SPEAKERS INCLUDE:

        Psychology/Perception:
            Marc De May, University of Ghent
            Beverly J. Jones, University of Oregon
            Barbara Tversky, Standfor University
            Michael J. Shiffer, MIT
            Tom Hubbard, Ohio State University
        Image Analysis:
            A. Ravishankar Rao, IBM Watson Research Center
            Nalini Bhusan, Smith College
            Xiaopin Hu, University of Illinois
            Narenda Ahuja, University of Illinois
            Les M. Sztander, University of Toledo
        Design:
            Mark Bajuk, University of Illinois
            Alyce Kaprow, MIT
        Text:
            Xia Lin, Pace University
            John Loustau, Hunter College
            Jong-Ding Wang, Hunter College
            Judson Rosebush, Judson Rosebush Co.
        Sound:
            Matthew Witten, University of Texas
            Robert Wyatt, Center for High Performance Computing
            Robert S. Williams, Pace University
            Rory Stuart, NYNEX
        Philosophy
            Michael Heim, Education Foundation of DPMA

:> God is eternal.    [A = B]
:> Jesus is God.      [C = A]
:> Therefore, Jesus is eternal.  [C = B]

:> This works both logically and mathematically.  God is of the set of
:> things which are eternal.  Jesus is a subset of God.   Therefore
:> Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal.

Everything isn't always so logical....

Mercedes is a car.
That girl is Mercedes.
Therefore, that girl is a car?

There is a nice little tool in Lucid emacs. It's called "calendar".
On request it shows for given longitude/latitude coordinates times for
sunset and sunrise. The code is written in lisp.
I don't know if you like the idea that an editor is the right program to
calculate these things.

Theo W.

Have you checked out Adobe Illustrator? There are a few Unix versions
for it available, depending on your platform. I know of two Unix versions:
One for Mach (NeXT) and for Irix (SGI). There may be others, such
as for Sun SparcStation, but I don't know for sure.

ttyl,

I am fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship by making an
application for it. It might require immigration to Germany, but
I am almost certain that once applied for citizenship is inevitable
in this case.

More interesting only for your propaganda purposes. I have said several
times now that I don't consider Iran particularly exemplary as a good
Islamic state. We might talk about the rights of people in "capitalist
secular" third world countries to give other examples of the lack of
rights in third world countries broadly. Say, for example, Central
American secular capitalist countries whose govt's the US supports
but who Amnesty International has pointed out are human rights vacua.

There is a guy in NASA Johnson Space Center  that might answer 
your question. I do not have his name right now but if you follow 
up I can dig that out for you.

	The Illiad contains more than one word. Ergo: it can not be
the Word of God. 

	But, if you will humbly agree that it is the WORDS of God, I 
will conceed.

	:-D

---

I know someone had long talks about Solar Sails early this year and late last
year..Also about Solar Sailing. Not sure who captured it if possible..

I think it was one of the regulars who had most or all the data?

I think I started the latest round or the late last year round.. But the topic
has been around here, off and on for a year or two..

  No, that's praying on the young.  Preying on the young comes
  later, when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the
  priest really wears under that chasible.

	You and Mr. bobby really need to sit down and decide what
exactly Islam  *is* before posting here.

	According to 'Zlumber, one is NOT a muslim when one is doing evil. 
[ A muslin can do no evil ] According to him, one who does evil is suffering 
from "temporary athiesm."

	Now, would the members who claim to be "Muslims" get their stories 
straight????

--

There is a new product for the (IBM'ers) out there... it is called
IMAGINE and it just started shipping yesterday... I can personally attest that it will blow the doors off of 3D-Studio.  It is made by IMPUlSE, and is in its
3rd version....(1st) for the IBM.... it can do morphing, your standard key-framming animation, it is a raytracer (reflections & shadows), and can do/apply special FX to objects... (like ripple, explode, bounce) things of that nature.  Also it has algorithmic texture maps....and your standard brushmapping also...

you can have animated brushmaps...(ie. live video mapped on the objs)...
also animated backdrops (ie. live video backgrounds)
also animted reflections maps....

you get the idea.... it will run for about 500$ retail (I think)...

dont let the low price fool you.... this product can do it all when it
comes to 3D-animation and Renderering...!

also....does anyone here know how to get in the Imagine mailing list??
please e-mail me if you do or post up here....

oh...the number for IMPULSE is --->1 800 328 0184

Hi, 

	Is anyone into medical imaging?  I have a good ray tracing background,
and I'm interested in that field.  Could you point me to some sources?  Or
better yet, if you have any experience, do you want to talk about what's
going on or what you're working on?

...

	It's amazing how everyone automatically blames one side or the other.
	One thing for sure:  Koresh will have no chance to defend himself
	against the statements (lacking in fact or COurt sponsored verification)
	made  by agents who participated in the situation that killed him.

		I don't know they murdered him; I also don't know
		that the Branch Davidians set a fire and suicidede.

		It is SICK of BATF or FBI spokepeople to make such
		comments in advance of forensic pathology.

	Stephen:  thank you.  God speed.  

	Yah.

	BINGO.  Am I the only one  to notice:
	a)	No peaceful attempt to serve a warrant.
	b)	Six months to develop a scene and six days to end it?
	c)	.... ah God:

			25 children
			at least 64 adults
			plus 6 at the beginning
			and more BATF agents

			all dead.

	Has anyone asked themselves these questions:

	1)  Have you seen the ENTIRE video sequences taken during the
	  opening rounds?  I seem to recall missing several key parts:
		a)  The first five minutes of day one; only the shooting
		  part comes out.
		b)  What happened to the Feds video units?  You mean they do
		  not carry helmet cams?  Wonder why not?
	2)   How is it you can have camera crews with live transmission
	  video present and NOT have an uninterrupted record?

		a)  You realize the units carry ittle bitty 8mm backups?
			That hold 90 minutes per unit?  And there are
			twounits on the professional handhelds (so no
			tape turnover gaps)?
		b)  Until all views are seen, it is premature to point
			fingers in either direction.

	As you well point out, Stephen.

	More on this below.

	Yes.  But it is so hard toremain human under the full
	pressure of hazard, game playing, and life.

	More to the point:  when someone dies (almost like it was intended
	that way), both sides will kill to maintain their innocence --
		a contradiction in terms.

	True.  Usually I pick the unpopular side and point out
	from the evidence seen what might have alternatively happened.

	This requires someone interested in God's Will.  Please note
	that the outstanding _overt_ problem in this country today
	is one where the Government:

		wants Caesar's coin to pay off the debt.

	Yes:  The AMerican People.  Not the Federal Government.
	ANd if it is not spent towards that end, _no_one_ deserves
	the coin.

	Yah.  Fewpeople hear the contradiction:

		Money
		made
		in the image
		of God

	I wish you were wrong.  Many pundits are saying 3 years.
	The onyl good thing to come out of my divorce (and my
	exposure to the Damned (pardon me) American Divorce Attorney
	is:

		I have no money left to lose to taxes or inflation.

	25 children dead.  If anyone thinks blaming Koresh -- or the BATF
	helps this any at all, is sick.  and wrong.

		The reason you can tell that the BATF may not be entirely
		straight on this is that the leaders at press conferences
		havew made ANY comments about even the POSSIBILITY that
		Koresh or his followers caused this.

		The BATF agentss are more concerned with their repuations
		and morals ("not my fault, Koresh did it!") than they
		are with:

			25 dead children.

	Same goes for Koresh & his followers - who are all (mostly) dead.

	More on power and favoritism.  (My personal opinion).

	Look to history:  whenever privilege has replaced whatever
	token of objective law and justice a society has had,

		Hitlerrs have followed.

	You do your name sake proud, Stephen.
	Its hard, but please keep on keeping on:
		each voice in the wilderness now will
		save a generation unborn from horror

	The day I _need_ a gun or abomb to protect myself in this
	society is the day that society is already beyond redemption

		and that aint' redundant, if you have any Christian
		belief aytall.

	... and the day that I cannot peacefully enjoin others in the
	act that Thoreau called Civil Disobedience to rectify the
	wrongs that my society practises, without undue harm or
	punishment befalling me, is the day that society has ceased to
	be a human society, and become a society of animals.

		We are _very_ cclose to that.

	Six years fighting an unjust COurt issue:  still struggling to be
	patient.

For those who like contrary questions:

	NB:  I was not there.  I am not a Branch Davidian nor a     law
	official hater.  I do hate liars or the six letter variety of same.
	The official side has its advocates already; lets balance the
	equation and asj a few questions on the other side, for the sake
	of an old saw the BATF abd FBI seem to want to bypass:

		innocent until proven guilty.
	not
		innocent until presumed guilty.

	1)  Where are the video tapes from the tanks?  ALL of them.

		Don't tell me they do not exist.  They are standard
		equipment.

	2)  So you think Koresh fired the place, because of the explosion?

		a)  Tear gas comes with an aerosol to spread it.  This
		  aerosol is DELIBERATELY made to be as non-flammable
		  as possible.  It is as non-flammable as possible.

			.... gotcha!

		  ... when in isolation from other substances.

		  WHy was a pipe deliveryu system used rather than remote
		  launchers?  WHy did the FBI not announce "this window,
		  blown in plus tear gas, five minutes; then the wall come
		  down", and maintain a left to right sequence?

		b)  Most aerosols also have a secondary compound, that when
		  mixed in, becomes a VERY flammable (and difficult to trace)
		  suspension, with a VERY special property:  exposure to
		  brief eruptions of high heat (muzzle blasts) or long
		  exposure to low heat (matches, a stove) will NOT tend
		  to ignite.

			What other chemicals come up in the forensics?
			Who else will be allowed to test the site?

		c)  After a few minutes to hours (ifdesired, the combnation
		  rate can be controlled as desired), the mixture can be made
		  to become veryignitable onb exposure to a temperature
		  above a certain point (a tracer round) for a certain
		  heat quantity (a small explosive charge) or for a length
		  of time (start a wall fire and wait).

			Check your military records; look at the tapes.
			Why were tanks (large capacity delivey systems),
			tear gas (why not somnorifics?), and now (why
			the hurry. was there still a comm channel open
			to the outside?).

			Do you see any trace of fire coming BACK to the
			compound in the videos?  ALL the videos?  Which ones
			are missing?

	Do I sound paranoid?  Maybe.  Am I? Probably not.
	You trust the FBI and BATF  to render judgement?
		IN advance of a Court?  God help us.
			(For we are surely not helping ourselves).
	You trut the Federal Gevernment to give us a clean slate?

		You are 4.3 trillion (admitted!) down and counting.
		Look again.

	Did it happen that way?  I do not know.  I was not there.
		AND IT SHOULD WAIT FOR A COURT TO DECIDE.
	But will that happen?  89 people will NOT have the chance
		to tell their side as the BATF leader was, on camera.

No one wins.  Except:  more force next time.

	Listen to your hearts, people.

Thanx again Stephen.

roy andrew crabtree

I think one (not ideal) solution is to use the
tracing utility (can't remember the name, sorry!)
included in the Corel Draw s/w pack.  It can convert
bitmaps to Corel art format.  These can then be
imported into a drawing rather than the bitmap.
Result - the file is completely in Corel format and
can be SCODAL'ed no problem!

BUT the slight problem with this, which makes the
solution less than idea, is that the trace utility
spits out many more points than are necessary to
define the shapes being traced.  Straight lines and
curves are both traced as many short segments.

So... the SCODAL taking *much* longer to
image.

The obvious solution is time-consuming - stripping
out the extra points by hand using Corel.

OUCH!
I've done it a few times :-]

                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

As I say, if you don't mind the problems, go via the route...
BITMAP -> COREL (VIA TRACE) ->
HAND TRIMMING (USING COREL)!!! ->
COMBINE WITH MAIN COREL PIC (VIA IMPORT) -> SCODAL

Not entirely.  Its not a premise, its a conclusion.  Second, that scientists
(for the most part) exlude the possibility is not a problem, its a necessity. 
Scientists are empircists, not theologians.

So do scientists, and long before you did.  Clearly you have a deep and 
fundamental misunderstanding of science.

Absolutely and utterly false (except for some were AMHs). Lucy (Australopithecus
afarensis, ca. 3 to 3.25 mya) is 40% complete, and about 80% taking into 
consideration bilateral symmetry.  Lucy walked upright and bipedally, just 
like humans, and the two share a remarkably similar dental pattern.  Her
cranial morphology is unlike humans or modern apes.  There are hundreds of 
other specimens of this and other species, of which only some are *partially* 
reconstructed.  They exist Bill.  You can touch them, feel them, hold them.  
But forget hominids.  The earth, the universe, the cultural record all look and 
test out as ancient indeed.  They are not reconstructions.  Has God has tricked
us here too?  It won't go away, Bill.
  
So *you* and other fundamentalists say.  What about the billions who don't 
say so?  Beware of people who say they have the truth, Bill, and reconsider
each time you think you do.

That was not your point, Bill.  Your point above was God *has* the power ....
Scientists generally agree with that.  That's a far cry from saying God did.
Please attempt to understand your own posts.
 
I have your info, and I have replied - several days ago.  Hope you have it.  
Somehow your post above appeared at my server only today.

Would someone please send me James Oberg's email address, if he has
one and if someone reading this list knows it?  I wanted to send
him a comment on something in his terraforming book.

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu

Well, from an Islamic viewpoint, homosexuality is not the norm for
society.  I cannot really say much about the Islamic viewpoint on homosexuality 
as it is not something I have done much research on.

Is there evidence independent of the FBI that indicates that the Branch
Davidians set the fire?  What have the survivors said?  Did the press see
anything?

There is, unfortunately, precedent for the U.S. government saving children by
roasting them alive.  (There is precedent for religious self-imolation
as well.)

No, instead you have stupid things like 3600 and 86400 and 31556925.9747 and
299792.458 and 9.80665 and ...

How many cc's in a ml anyway?  The metric system has its problems, just not
as many of them.

Archive-name: space/schedule
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:23 $

SPACE SHUTTLE ANSWERS, LAUNCH SCHEDULES, TV COVERAGE

    SHUTTLE LAUNCHINGS AND LANDINGS; SCHEDULES AND HOW TO SEE THEM

    Shuttle operations are discussed in the Usenet group sci.space.shuttle,
    and Ken Hollis (gandalf@pro-electric.cts.com) posts a compressed version
    of the shuttle manifest (launch dates and other information)
    periodically there. The manifest is also available from the Ames SPACE
    archive in SPACE/FAQ/manifest. The portion of his manifest formerly
    included in this FAQ has been removed; please refer to his posting or
    the archived copy. For the most up to date information on upcoming
    missions, call (407) 867-INFO (867-4636) at Kennedy Space Center.

    Official NASA shuttle status reports are posted to sci.space.news
    frequently.

    WHY DOES THE SHUTTLE ROLL JUST AFTER LIFTOFF?

    The following answer and translation are provided by Ken Jenks
    (kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov).

    The "Ascent Guidance and Flight Control Training Manual," ASC G&C 2102,

	"During the vertical rise phase, the launch pad attitude is
	commanded until an I-loaded V(rel) sufficient to assure launch tower
	clearance is achieved. Then, the tilt maneuver (roll program)
	orients the vehicle to a heads down attitude required to generate a
	negative q-alpha, which in turn alleviates structural loading. Other
	advantages with this attitude are performance gain, decreased abort
	maneuver complexity, improved S-band look angles, and crew view of
	the horizon. The tilt maneuver is also required to start gaining
	downrange velocity to achieve the main engine cutoff (MECO) target
	in second stage."

    This really is a good answer, but it's couched in NASA jargon. I'll try
    to interpret.

    1)	We wait until the Shuttle clears the tower before rolling.

    2)	Then, we roll the Shuttle around so that the angle of attack
	between the wind caused by passage through the atmosphere (the
	"relative wind") and the chord of the wings (the imaginary line
	between the leading edge and the trailing edge) is a slightly
	negative angle ("a negative q-alpha").	This causes a little bit of
	"downward" force (toward the belly of the Orbiter, or the +Z
	direction) and this force "alleviates structural loading."
	We have to be careful about those wings -- they're about the
	most "delicate" part of the vehicle.

    3)	The new attitude (after the roll) also allows us to carry more
	mass to orbit, or to achieve a higher orbit with the same mass, or
	to change the orbit to a higher or lower inclination than would be
	the case if we didn't roll ("performance gain").

    4)	The new attitude allows the crew to fly a less complicated
	flight path if they had to execute one of the more dangerous abort
	maneuvers, the Return To Launch Site ("decreased abort maneuver
	complexity").

    5)	The new attitude improves the ability for ground-based radio
	antennae to have a good line-of-sight signal with the S-band radio
	antennae on the Orbiter ("improved S-band look angles").

    6)	The new attitude allows the crew to see the horizon, which is a
	helpful (but not mandatory) part of piloting any flying machine.

    7)	The new attitude orients the Shuttle so that the body is
	more nearly parallel with the ground, and the nose to the east
	(usually).  This allows the thrust from the engines to add velocity
	in the correct direction to eventually achieve orbit.  Remember:
	velocity is a vector quantity made of both speed and direction.
	The Shuttle has to have a large horizontal component to its
	velocity and a very small vertical component to attain orbit.

    This all begs the question, "Why isn't the launch pad oriented to give
    this nice attitude to begin with?  Why does the Shuttle need to roll to
    achieve that attitude?"  The answer is that the pads were leftovers
    from the Apollo days.  The Shuttle straddles two flame trenches -- one
    for the Solid Rocket Motor exhaust, one for the Space Shuttle Main
    Engine exhaust.  (You can see the effects of this on any daytime
    launch.  The SRM exhaust is dirty gray garbage, and the SSME exhaust is
    fluffy white steam.  Watch for the difference between the "top"
    [Orbiter side] and the "bottom" [External Tank side] of the stack.) The
    access tower and other support and service structure are all oriented
    basically the same way they were for the Saturn V's.  (A side note: the
    Saturn V's also had a roll program.  Don't ask me why -- I'm a Shuttle
    guy.)

    I checked with a buddy in Ascent Dynamics.	He added that the "roll
    maneuver" is really a maneuver in all three axes: roll, pitch and yaw.
    The roll component of that maneuver is performed for the reasons
    stated.  The pitch component controls loading on the wings by keeping
    the angle of attack (q-alpha) within a tight tolerance.  The yaw
    component is used to determine the orbital inclination.  The total
    maneuver is really expressed as a "quaternion," a grad-level-math
    concept for combining all three rotation matrices in one four-element
    array.

    HOW TO RECEIVE THE NASA TV CHANNEL, NASA SELECT

    NASA SELECT is broadcast by satellite. If you have access to a satellite
    dish, you can find SELECT on Satcom F2R, Transponder 13, C-Band, 72
    degrees West Longitude, Audio 6.8, Frequency 3960 MHz. F2R is stationed
    over the Atlantic, and is increasingly difficult to receive from
    California and points west. During events of special interest (e.g.
    shuttle missions), SELECT is sometimes broadcast on a second satellite
    for these viewers.

    If you can't get a satellite feed, some cable operators carry SELECT.
    It's worth asking if yours doesn't.

    The SELECT schedule is found in the NASA Headline News which is
    frequently posted to sci.space.news. Generally it carries press
    conferences, briefings by NASA officials, and live coverage of shuttle
    missions and planetary encounters. SELECT has recently begun carrying
    much more secondary material (associated with SPACELINK) when missions
    are not being covered.

    AMATEUR RADIO FREQUENCIES FOR SHUTTLE MISSIONS

    The following are believed to rebroadcast space shuttle mission audio:

	W6FXN  - Los Angeles
	K6MF   - Ames Research Center, Mountain View, California
	WA3NAN - Goddard Space Flight Center (GSFC), Greenbelt, Maryland.
	W5RRR  - Johnson Space Center (JSC), Houston, Texas
	W6VIO  - Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, California.
	W1AW Voice Bulletins

	Station    VHF	   10m	   15m	   20m	  40m	 80m
	------	 ------  ------  ------  ------  -----	-----
	W6FXN	 145.46
	K6MF	 145.585			 7.165	3.840
	WA3NAN	 147.45  28.650  21.395  14.295  7.185	3.860
	W5RRR	 146.64  28.400  21.350  14.280  7.227	3.850
	W6VIO	 224.04		 21.340  14.270
	W6VIO	 224.04		 21.280  14.282  7.165	3.840
	W1AW		 28.590  21.390  14.290  7.290	3.990

    W5RRR transmits mission audio on 146.64, a special event station on the
    other frequencies supplying Keplerian Elements and mission information.

    W1AW also transmits on 147.555, 18.160. No mission audio but they
    transmit voice bulletins at 0245 and 0545 UTC.

    Frequencies in the 10-20m bands require USB and frequencies in the 40
    and 80m bands LSB. Use FM for the VHF frequencies.

    [This item was most recently updated courtesy of Gary Morris
    (g@telesoft.com, KK6YB, N5QWC)]

    SOLID ROCKET BOOSTER FUEL COMPOSITION

    Reference: "Shuttle Flight Operations Manual" Volume 8B - Solid Rocket
    Booster Systems, NASA Document JSC-12770

    Propellant Composition (percent)

    Ammonium perchlorate (oxidizer)			69.6
    Aluminum						16
    Iron Oxide (burn rate catalyst)			0.4
    Polybutadiene-acrilic acid-acrylonitrile (a rubber) 12.04
    Epoxy curing agent					1.96

    End reference

    Comment: The aluminum, rubber, and epoxy all burn with the oxidizer.

Yup.  I can hear the _millions_ cheering for DK right now!  Josef Stalin eat
your heart out!  :)
--

I'm interested in simulating reverse (or negative) color video
mathematically.  What is the transform?  Is it a simple
reversal of the hue value in the HSV color space?  Is it
a manipulation in the YUV color space?  How is it related
to solarization?

If you want to see something truly wild, turn on the
reverse video effect on a camcorder so equipped,
and point it at the monitor.  This creates a chaotic
dynamical system whose phase space is continuous along
rotation, zoom, focus, etc.  Very very surprising and 
lovely.  I'd like to write a simulation of this effect
without analog grunge.  Thanks for any info you may have.

Please e-mail any info to me.  I'll post a summary.

Thanks,

-- 

I'm currently looking for information about different graphics
formats, especially PPM, PCX BMP and perhaps GIF.
Does anyone know if there exist any files at some site
that describes these formats ???

Thanks !

Do you honestly hold to that tripe Charley? For a start there are enough
current versions of the Bible to make comparisons to show that what you write
above is utter garbage. Witness JW, Mormon, Catholic, Anglican, and Greek
Orthodox Bibles. But to really convince you I'd have to take you to a good
old library. In our local library we had a 1804 King James which I compared
to a brand new, hot of God's tongue Good News Bible. Genesis was almost
unrecognisable, many of the discrepencies between the four gospels had been
edited from the Good News Bible. In fact the God of Good News was a much
more congenial fellow I must say. 

If you like I'll get the 1804 King James out again and actually give you
some quotes. At least the headings haven't changed much.

Please Ineed information about desk top publishe- post graduate courses
and if possible email address or normal mail.
thanks in advance

Science is the process of modeling the real world based on commonly agreed
interpretations of our observations (perceptions).

Values can also refer to meaning.  For example in computer science the
value of 1 is TRUE, and 0 is FALSE.  Science is based on commonly agreed
values (interpretation of observations), although science can result in a
reinterpretation of these values.

The values underlaying science are not objective since they have never been
fully agreed, and the change with time.  The values of Newtonian physic are
certainly different to those of Quantum Mechanics.

Deletions...

So, you consider the german poster's remark anti-semitic?  Perhaps you
imply that anyone in Germany who doesn't agree with israely policy in a
nazi?  Pray tell, how does it even qualify as "casual anti-semitism"? 
If the term doesn't apply, why then bring it up?

Your own bigotry is shining through.  
-- 

Judging from postings I've read all over Usenet and on non-Usenet
BBs conferences, Barney is DEFINITELY an endangered species. Especially
if he runs into me in a dark alley.
                                   
                                            A.Lizard

I would like a reference to an algorithm that can detect whether 
one closed curve bounded by some number of bezier curves lies completely
within another closed curve bounded by bezier curves.

Thanks.

	Sigh.
	I try to make a little joke, I try to inject some humour here
and what happens?  In the immortal words of Foghorn Leghorn:

	"I say, that was a _joke_, son."

	I thought that the bit about McElwaine, not to mention the two
smileys, would indicate to even the most humour impaired that I was
JOKING.
	Sigh.
	(And will everyone who pat's suggestion (thanks bunches, pat)
*please* stop sending me email.)

Actually I am trying to write something like this but I encounter some
problems, amongst them:

- drawing a 3d wireframe view of a quadric/quartic requires that you have
the explicit equation of the quadric/quartic (x, y, z functions of some
parameters). How to convert the implicit equation used by PoV to an
explicit one? Is it mathematically always possible?

[On the issue of 'burning' nuclear wastes using particle beams...]

I sometimes wonder if your newsfeed gives you different articles than
everyone else, Pat.  Just a *few* corrections:

1) I never 'defended' 20kHz power, other than as something reasonable
to GO LOOK AT.

2) I have also never opposed a *research project* into feasibility of
the spalling reactor approach to 'cleaning' nuclear waste -- I simply
doubt it could be made to work in the Real World (tm), which ought to
become clear fairly quickly during a research program into feasibility
(sort of like what happened to 20 kHz power -- it proved to have a
down-side that was too expensive to overcome).

I figure 2 things wrong in a single sentence is a high enough fault
density for even you, Pat.

-- 

burning yourself alive seems a rough way to go, given the waco bunch
had other choices.

but it reminded me of the russian old-believers who, thinking the
antichrist was coming in 1666, grew frantic when Peter the Great 
started westernizing Russia and reforming the Russian Church a few
years later. They locked themselves in their churches and burned
themselves alive by the thousands. 

are there other cases of apocalypse-obsessed christians resorting
to self-imolation? is there a history of precedents?

Christian  Slater, only gota  cameo on ST6,  

and besides.

Maybe she can't act:-)

As I understand it, THe difference between 3D Studio 2.00 and 2.01 is mainly
in the IPAS interface, along with a few small bug fixes. The IPAS code runs
a lot faster in the newest version.

   Other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such..
   Why not??

Because to be any use as a nav point you need to know -exactly- where
it is, which means you either nail it to something that doesn't move
or you watch it all the time.  Neither of which is possible on a
deactivated spacecraft.  Then you have to know exactly how far away
from it you are; this may or may not be possible with the hardware on
board. 

Apart from which, there is absolutely no need for navigation beacons.

Omigod, it's an operationalist! Sorry, Jim, but the idea that a theory
explaining a myriad of distinctly different observations is merely a
"model" is more than sensible people can accept -- your phobia about
objective reality notwithstanding.
--

	"So after 1000 years of sightseeing and roaming around its 
	ok to come back, kill Palastinians, and get their land back, 
	right?"

Yes, that's casual antisemitism.    I can think of plenty of ways
to criticize Israeli policy without insulting Jews or Jewish history.

Can't you?

I'll also add that it is impossible to actually tell when one
_rejects_ god.  Therefore, you choose to punish only those who
_talk_ about it.  

Let's see. These aren't, in a strict sense, amateur rockets. That term
denotes rockets, the engines of which are constructed by the user. The
rockets you describe are called HPR, or high power rockets, to
distinguish them from (smaller) model rockets. They use factory-made
ammonium perchlorate composite propellants in phenolic plastic engines
with graphite nozzles. The engines are classified by impulse. A "D"
engine, for example, can have no more than 20 newton-seconds of impulse.
An "F" engine can have no more than 40 ns. Each letter corresponds to a
doubling of the maximum impulse. So far, engines up to size "O" are
available pretty much off the shelf. Engines of size H and above are
shipped as Class B explosives, and as such are controlled. Engines of
size F and below are shipped as Class C explosives, and are not as
controlled. Class F engines, BTW, are not HPR engines, but model rocket
engines. (Class G engines go in and out of legal limbo.)

There is an HPR Society, The Tripoli Rocket Society, I believe, which
holds events at various sites throughout the year, with all legalities
(FAA waiver included) taken care of. The National Association of
Rocketry is more concerned with engines below H, though it is involved
in HPR as well. These societies certify users of HPR rockets, and
companies will not sell to uncertified individuals.

Bottom Line: It's legit. I suggest you send for a catalog - but forget
the dynamite, will ya?

:      For all the problems technology has caused, your types have made
: things even worse.  Must we be reminded of the Inquisition, Operation
: Rescue, the Ku Klux Klan, Posse Comitatus, the 700 Club, David Duke, Salem
: Witch Trials, the Crusades, gay bashings, etc.
:      PLUS virtually each and every single war, regardless of the level of
: technology, has had theistic organizations cheering on the carnage
: (chaplains, etc.), and claiming that god was in favor of the whole ordeal. 
: Don't forget to pray for our troops!
:      

This is really tedious. Every bad thing that's ever happened is
because the malefactors were under the influence of religion - does
anyone -really- believe that. I've seen it so often it must be a
pretty general opinion in a.a, but I want to believe that atheists are
really not THAT dishonest. Please, stick to the facts and, having
accomplished that, interpret them correctly.

(1) No explicit (c) is necessary.  If it the image is attributed to the
Geosphere Company, then there is a likelihood permission is has been
given to reprint.

(2) Unlikely that the owner can or will go after individuals.
However, "interesting" images do make their way into ads and
computer demos. That is when a pirate might get some flak.
This image is considered so "interesting" that many people would
like to use it whenever some global map is needed, so there
is lots of temptation.

(3) One mail person said since the source data- satellite imagery-
is not copyrighted, then the derived image can't be.  Not true.
A new, distinctive, creative expression of the data can be protected.
This image is certainly fits such, since NO ONE ELSE has taken the
tremendous effort to re-create it themselves.  Precedent is a recent
telephone book court case.  Ma Bell tried to copyright the data in
their books and prevent competitors from copying it (there are
trick entries in the book).  But the court only permitted copyright
of the expression of the data, and not the data themselves. (You cant
xerox and sell the telephone book.)

(4) There will be more attention to digital copyrights in the future
and computer becomes a mass product and moguls such as Bill Gates
are currently hoarding the digital copyrights.

Recently I saw the latest Computer Shopper and in it there was an article
on nice shareware graphics programs. They looked pretty good and of the 6
listed in the article, one I had (Graphics Workshop), one I found via
archie (Draft Choice - old version though) and the rest I couldn't find.
So if there is anyone that knows where I can get the following programs
via anonymous ftp, please let me know.

Adkins Graphics :AG1.ZIP, AG2.ZIP
Draft Choice (latest VGA version) : DRAFTC.ZIP
Envision Publisher: ENVIS1.ZIP, ENVIS2.ZIP
Neopaint: NEOPNT.ZIP

D.PETRO 

Is there any program available (free or otherwise) for taking a tiff or gif
or some other bitmapped file and turning it (or parts of it) into ascii
characters?

  DOS, OS/2 or platform independent programs if possible.

I'm greatly in need of Jurgen
Moltmann's book God in Creation:
An Ecological Doctrine of Creation.

If you have a copy you're willing to
part with, I'd love to hear from you
soon.  You may call me at 312-702-
8367 or e-mail me.

Thanks.

We are interested in purchasing a grayscale printer that offers a good
resoltuion for grayscale medical images.  Can anybody give me some
recommendations on these products in the market, in particular, those
under $5000?

This posting is totally uncalled for in rec.scouting.

The point has been raised and has been answered.  Roger and I have
clearly stated our support of the BSA position on the issue;
specifically, that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of
the Scout Oath (specifically, the promise to live "morally straight").

There is really nothing else to discuss.  Trying to cloud the issue
with comparisons to Blacks or other minorities is also meaningless
because it's like comparing apples to oranges (i.e., people can't
control their race but they can control their behavior).

What else is there to possibly discuss on rec.scouting on this issue?
Nobody, including BSA, is denying anybody the right to live and/or
worship as they please or don't please,  but it doesn't mean that BSA
is the big bad wolf for adhering to the recognized, positive, religious
and moral standards on which our society has been established and on
which it should continue to be based.

I was suggesting that the minority of professional and amateur astronomers
have the right to a dark, uncluttered night sky.

Let me give you an example.  When you watch TV, they have commercials to pay
for the programming.  You accept that as part of watching.  If you don't like
it, you can turn it off.  If you want to view the night sky, and there is a
floating billboard out there, you can't turn it off.  It's the same 
reasoning that limits billboards in scenic areas.

George.

civil rights.

I say: 
	Any reasonably in-depth perusal of American history will show
	you that many WASPs have continued the practices of prejudice,
	discrimination, and violence against others of different
	races, religions, and beliefs, despite the law.

If you really are annoyed,   get some legislation

I say:
What I'm objecting to here is a floating billboard that, presumably,
would move around in the sky.  I, for one, am against legislating
at all.  I just wish that people had a bit of common courtesy, and
would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and
aesthetic values that make us human.  This includes the need for wild
and unspoiled things, including the night sky.

George

The best program I've seen for viewing such files is VPIC.  You'll want version 5.9 or later.  (6.0x is current.)  It allows you to view in 15 and 24 bit modes.  It really is QUITE nice.

Now, for a return question:  Do you run Windows?  If so, what are the dates on your drivers?  The newest ones *I* can find are from around 4-??-92!!  My problem is they conflict with Star Trek: After Dark, and other things as well.  I'm willing to bet that it's the drivers, and NOT the programs.  Anyone out there have info on newer SS24 (NOT X) drivers for windows or OS/2?

: I wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of
: the world  if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group
: of the population. 

I've been thinking about this every now and then since I cut my ties
with Christianity. It is surprising to note that a large majority of
people, at least in Finland, seem to be apatheists - even though
90 % of the population are members of the Lutheran Church of Finland,
religious people are actually a minority. 

Could it be possible that many people believe in god "just in case"?
It seems people do not want to seek the truth; they fall prey to Pascal's
Wager or other poor arguments. A small minority of those who do believe
reads the Bible regularly. The majority doesn't care - it believes,
but doesn't know what or how. 

People don't usually allow their beliefs to change their lifestyle,
they only want to keep the virtual gate open. A Christian would say
that they are not "born in the Spirit", but this does not disturb them.
Religion is not something to think about. 

I'm afraid a society with a true atheist majority is an impossible
dream. Religions have a strong appeal to people, nevertheless - 
a promise of life after death is something humans eagerly listen to.
Coupled with threats of eternal torture and the idea that our
morality is under constant scrutiny of some cosmic cop, too many
people take the poison with a smile. Or just pretend to swallow
(and unconsciously hope god wouldn't notice ;-) )

: Also, how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a
: higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking.  The
: typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the
: same inherent motivation, so one is not, intrinsically, different from the
: other, qualitatively.  But then again a measuring stick must be drawn
: somewhere, and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core,
: than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery; ie, how it
: expresses its own selfishness.

If logic and reason are valued, then I would claim that atheistic thinking
is of higher value than the theistic exposition. Theists make unnecessary
assumptions they believe in - I've yet to see good reasons to believe
in gods, or to take a leap of faith at all. A revelation would do.

However, why do we value logic and reasoning? This questions bears
some resemblance to a long-disputed problem in science: why mathematics
works? Strong deep structuralists, like Atkins, have proposed that
perhaps, after all, everything _is_ mathematics. 

Is usefulness any criterion?

Petri

Last I had heard because of budget and such the Air Farce is the only "Space
Command" left.. The rest missions were generally given to the Air Farce..

Probably a good reason for me to transfer from the Army Guard to the Air
Guard..

I hate walking with a pack on my back, and how do you put on your application
for a job as a kitchen worker, that you have done a lot of KP (Kitchen
Police)..

If you're talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation, well,
it's obviously a risk one takes.

I'm not an objectivist, so I'm not particularly impressed with problems of
conceptualization.  The problem in this case is at least as bad as that of
trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary
experience.  One can get some rough understanding, but the language is, from
the perspective of ordinary phenomena, inconsistent, and from the
perspective of what's being described, rather inexact (to be charitable).

An analogous situation (supposedly) obtains in metaphysics; the problem is
that the "better" descriptive language is not available.

This word "reliable" is essentially meaningless in the context-- unless you
can show how reliability can be determined.

I am a newbie to the net, and I am trying to get some information for a paper
I am working on to get back into college.  If anyone can send me data on
Solar coronal holes and recurrant aurora  for the past thirty years it would be
a big help.  Or, if you have information on more esoteric things like Telluric
current, surge bafflers power companies use, or other effects sporatic aurora
have on the Earth's magnetic field, I'd be eternally gratefull.  Please send 
anything interesting to me at
        Marty Crandall-Grela
        Van Vleck Observatory
        Wesleyan University
        Middletown,Ct 06487
 or e-mail it to me at mcrandall@eagle.wesleyan.edu
 Thank-you in advance,      Marty

: 
: >A stupid question, but what will CView run on and where can I get it? I
: >am still in need of a GIF viewer for Linux. (Without X-Windows.)
: >Thanks!
: > 
: 
: Ho boy. There is no way in HELL you are going to be able to view GIFs or do
: any other graphics in Linux without X windows!  I love Linux because it is
: so easy to learn..  You want text?  Okay.   Use Linux. You want text AND
: graphics?  Use Linux with X windows.  Simple.  Painless.  REQUIRED to have
: X Windows if you want graphics!  This includes fancy word processors like
: doc, image viewers like xv, etc.
:
Ummm, I beg to differ. A kind soul sent me a program called DPG-VIEW that
will do exactly what I want, view GIF images under Linux without X-Windows.
And, it does support all the way up to 1024x768. The biggest complaint I
have is it is painfully SLOW. It takes about 1 minute to display an image.
I am use to CSHOW under DOS which takes a split second. Any idea why it
is so slow under Linux? Anybody have anything better? Plus, anybody have
the docs to DPG-View? Thanks!
 
The gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit 'fuzzy regions'.  These
are described by the inventor as exploiting the second-order perturbations in a
three body system.  The probe was launched into this region for the
earth-moon-sun system, where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to
allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
down. The idea is that 'natural objects sometimes get captured without
expending fuel, we'll just find the trajectory that makes it possible". The
originator of the technique said that NASA wasn't interested, but that Japan
was because their probe was small and couldn't hold a lot of fuel for
deceleration.

	This from an issue of 'Science News' or 'The Planetary Report' I
believe, about 2 months ago(?).

I'm a mac user who wants to use some of the rayshade models I've built
using macrayshade (rayshade-M) with Stratavision 3d.  Since Stratavision
can import many different model files I thought this would be a cinch...
but I haven't been able to find a simple translator that will work on the
mac.  Any ideas?

Stratavision 3d should be able to import:

DXF
MiniCAD
Super 3d
Swivel 3d professional

out of the box and:

RIB
IGS

with externals.

Also, if anyone knows of any other translator externals available for
Stratavision 3d (esp. Rayshade!) please e-mail me!

BTW, I'm going to send mail to the rayshade usrs mailing list tomorrow (I
misplaced the address) but since most users of rayshade do not seem to
operate with macs, I'm not getting my hopes up...

#In <1qvabj$g1j@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) 
#
#>In article <C5qGM3.DL8@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike 
#
#Am I making a wrong assumption for the basis of morals?  Where do they come 
#from?  The question came from the idea that I heard that morals come from
#whatever is societally mandated.

It's only one aspect of morality.  Societal morality is necessarily
very crude and broad-brush stuff which attempts to deal with what
is necessary to keep that society going  - and often it's a little
over-enthusiastic about doing so.  Individual morality is a different
thing, it often includes societal mores (or society is in trouble),
but is stronger.  For example, some people are vegetarian, though eating
meat may be perfectly legal.

#
#>#Merely a question for the basis of morality
#>#
#>#Moral/Ethical behavior = _Societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_.
#>#
#>#1)Who is society
#
#>Depends on the society.
#
#Doesn't help.  Is the point irrelevant?

No.  Often the answer is "we are".  But if society is those who make
the rules, that's a different question.  If society is who should
make the rules, that's yet another.  I don't claim to have the answers, either,
but I don't think we do it very well in Ireland, and I like some things
about the US system, at least in principle.

#
#>#2)How do "they" define what is acceptable?
#
#>Depends.
#On....  Again, this comes from a certain question (see above).

Well, ideally they don't, but if they must they should do it by consensus, IMO.
#
#>#3)How do we keep from a "whatever is legal is what is "moral" "position?
#
#>By adopting a default position that people's moral decisions
#>are none of society's business,
#
#So how can we put people in jail? How can we condemn other societies?

Because sometimes that's necessary.  The hard trick is to recognise when
it is, and equally importantly, when it isn't.

# and only interfering when it's truly
#>necessary.
#
#Why would it be necessary?  What right do we have to interfere?

IMO, it isn't often that interference (i.e. jail, and force of various
kinds and degrees) is both necessary and effective.  Where you derive 
the right to interfere is a difficult question - it's a sort of
liar's paradox: "force is necessary for freedom".   One possible justification
is that people who wish to take away freedom shouldn't object if
their own freedom is taken away - the paradox doesn't arise if
we don't actively wish to take way anyone's freedom.
#
#  The introduction of permissible interference causes the problem
#>that it can be either too much or too little - but most people seem
#>to agree that some level of interference is necessary.
#
#They see the need for a "justice" system.  How can we even define that term?

Only by consensus, I guess.

#  Thus you
#>get a situation where "The law often allows what honour forbids", which I've
#>come to believe is as it should be.  
#
#I admit I don't understand that statement.

What I mean is that, while thus-and-such may be legal, thus-and-such may
also be seen as immoral.   The law lets you do it, but you don't let yourself
do it.  Eating meat, for example.

So these hypothetical conscious beings can ignore any influences of
their circumstances (their genetics, their environment, their experiences)
which are not all self-determined?

(Of course, the idea of Hell makes the idea of "free will" dubious.
On the other hand, the idea of Hell is not a very powerful idea.

	"A Parable for You

	"There was once our main character who blah blah blah.
	"One day, a thug pointed a mean looking gun at OMC, and
said, 'Do what I say, or I'm blasting you to hell.'
	"OMC thought, 'If I believe this thug, and follow the
instructions that will be given, I'll avoid getting blasted to
hell.  On the other hand, if I believe this thug, and do not
follow the instructions that will be given, I'll get blasted to
hell.  Hmm... the more attractive choice is obvious, I'll
follow the instructions.'  Now, OMC found the choice obvious
because everything OMC had learned about getting blasted to
hell made it appear very undesirable.
	"But then OMC noticed that the thug's gun wasn't a real
gun.  The thug's threats were make believe.
	"So OMC ignored the thug and resumed blah blah blah.")

Well Henry, we are often reminded how CANADA is not a part of the United States
(yet).  You could have quite a commercial A-SAT, er sky-cleaning service going
in a few years. 

"Toronto SkySweepers:  Clear skies in 48 hours, or your money back."
	   Discount rates available for astro-researchers. 

Some birds require constant management for survival.  Pointing a sensor at
the sun, even when powered down, may burn it out.  Pointing a
parabolic antenna  at Sol,  from venus orbit  may trash the
foci  elements.

Even if you let teh bird drift,  it may  get hosed by some
cosmic phenomena.   

[...]

These don't seem like "little things" to me.  At least, they are orders
worse than the motto.  Do you think that the motto is a "little thing"
that will lead to worse things?

WGT is the WordUp Graphics Toolkit, designed by yours truly and my
co-programmer (and brother) Chris Egerter. It is a Turbo/Borland C++ graphics
library for programming in 320*200*256 VGA. We are currently producing it as
shareware, but in a few years it may be a commercial product (excuse typos,
there's no backspace on this terminal). Features include:

- loading and saving bit-images (called blocks from herein)
- flipping, resizing and warping blocks
- loading and saving palette, fading, several in memory at once
- graphics primitives such as line, circle, bar, rectangle
- region fill (not the usually useless floodfill)
- sprites (animated bitmaps), up to 200 onscreen at once
- joystick/mouse support
- SB support (VOC and CMF)
- tile-based game creation using 16*16 pixel tiles to create
  a 320*200 tile map (or game world) like in Duke Nuke 'Em
- number of sprites increased to 1000
- Professional Sprite Creator utility and Map Maker
-  routines to simplify scrolling games using maps, etc
- FLI playing routines, sprites can be animated over the FLI while playing
- PCX support, soon GIF
- EMS/XMS coming soon as well

Leave E-mail to Barry Egerter at    egerter@obelix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca

Files available on:      (use  mget wgt*.zip)

SIMTEL20 and mirrors                pd1:<msdos.turbo-c>

nic.funet.fi                        pub/msdos/games/programming

Hi

I am looking for Image Analysis software running in DOS or Windows. I'd like 
to be able to analyze TIFF or similar files to generate histograms of 
patterns, etc. 

Any help would be appreciated!

__________________________________________________________________________

I'm looking for any leads to the source of a good Windows
Meta File converter or interpreter. I need this for use
outside the Windows environment. PD sources preferred, but
not a requirement. Please reply to the address below.

How about the nickname Bake "Flamethrower" Timmons?

You weren't at the Koresh compound around noon today by any chance, were you?

Remember, Koresh "dried" for your sins.  

93!04.16 e.v.  After the Glorious Eve of Taxation

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.

"To all whom it may concern -

...

"It is known only to a few that there exists an external visible
organization of such men and women, who having themselves found
the path to real self-knowledge, and who, having travelled the
burning sands, are willing to give the benefit of their experience,
and to act as spiritual guides to those who are willing to be
guided.

"While numberless societies, associations, orders, groups etc.
have been founded during the last thirty years in all parts of
the civilised world, all following some line of occult study,
yet there is but ONE ancient organization of genuine Mystics
which shows the seeker after truth a Royal Road to discover
The Lost Mysteries of Antiquity, and to the Unveiling of the
One Hermetic Truth.

"This organization is known at the present time as the Ancient
Order of Oriental Templars.  Ordo Templi Orientis.  Otherwise:
The Hermetic Brotherhood of Light.

"It is a Modern School of Magic.  And, like the ancient schools
of magic, it derived its knowledge from the East.  This Knowledge
was never its possessors.[sic] It was recorded in symbol, parable 
and allegory, requiring a Key for its interpretation....

"This key can be placed within the reach of all those who... apply
for membership to the Oriental Templars (O.T.O.). 

"The O.T.O.... is a body of Initiates in whose hands are
concentrated the secret knowledge of all Oriental Orders and of all
existing Masonic Degrees....

"The O.T.O., although an Academia Masonica, is not a Masonic Body,
so far as the Craft degrees are concerned in the sense in which that
expression is usually understood in England, and therefore in no way
conflicts with or infringes the just priveleges of the United Lodge
of England.  English Master Masons in good standing, by arrangement,
on affiliation, are admitted at reduced charges.  Members of the IX
degree become part-proprietors of the Estates and Goods of the Order.
For further information see the publications of the O.T.O., and the
synopsis of the degrees of the O.T.O."

'Constitution of the Ancient Order of Oriental Templars,
 Ordo Templi Orientis', 

by Frater Superior Merlin Peregrinus X Degree, 
Past Grand Master Albert Karl Theodor Reuss

Taken from _Equinox III: 10_, 
Edited by Frater Superior Rex Summus Sanctissimus,
United States Caliph of Ordo Templi Orientis

I am I!

nsmca> So some of my ideas are a bit odd, off the wall and such, but
nsmca> so was Wilbur and Orville Wright, and quite a few others..

This is a common misconception.  There was nothing "off the wall"
about the Wright Brothers.  They were in correspondance with a number
of other experimenters (Octave Chanute, Lillienthal, etc), they flew
models, they had a wind tunnel.  In short, they were quite mainstream
and were not regarded as odd or eccentric by the community.

I suggest you read The Bishop's Boys or the biography by Harry Gates?
Combs?  (I can never remember which it is--the guy that had the FBOs
and owned Learjet for a while).  These are both in print and easily
obtainable.  The Bishop's Boys is in trade paperback, even.

Even better would be the multi-volume set of the Wrights' writings,
but this is out of print, rare, and hideously expensive.

AT&T also puts out two new products for windows, Model numbers elude me now,
a 15 bit video board with framegrabber and a 16bit with same. Yesterday I
was looking at a product at a local Software ETC store. Media Vision makes
a 15bit (32,768 color) frame capture board that is stand alone and doesnot
use the feature connector on your existing video card. It claims upto 30 fps
live capture as well as single frame from either composite NTSC or s-video
in and out.

Please cite your evidence that he was intending to use it.

Why not?

Check the sig.

Society does not have rights only individuals have rights.

OK, your a commie.

You think you have a right to rape anyone? No wonder you don't care about
the rightws of others.

Please indicate which law you feel Koresh broke, and when was he convicted of
said crime.

So you feel that owning guns makes him a threat to society. When are y ou
going to start going after knives and baseball bats as well.
Or do you feel that someone who spouts unpopular ideas is by definition a
threat to society.

It is simple if you think that there job is to assualt civilians.

In other words you don't support any of them.

Are we talking about me, or the majority of the people that support it?
Anyway, I think that "revenge" or "fairness" is why most people are in
favor of the punishment.  If a murderer is going to be punished, people
that think that he should "get what he deserves."  Most people wouldn't
think it would be fair for the murderer to live, while his victim died.

Perhaps you think that it is petty and pathetic, but your views are in the
minority.

Where are we required to have compassion, forgiveness, and sympathy?  If
someone wrongs me, I will take great lengths to make sure that his advantage
is removed, or a similar situation is forced upon him.  If someone kills
another, then we can apply the golden rule and kill this person in turn.
Is not our entire moral system based on such a concept?

Or, are you stating that human life is sacred, somehow, and that it should
never be violated?  This would sound like some sort of religious view.
 
Once a criminal has committed a murder, his desires are irrelevant.

And, you still have not answered my question.  If you are concerned about
the death penalty due to the possibility of the execution of an innocent,
then why isn't this same concern shared with imprisonment.  Shouldn't we,
by your logic, administer as minimum as punishment as possible, to avoid
violating the liberty or happiness of an innocent person?

Voyager  has the unusual  luck to be on a stable trajectory out of the
solar system.   All it's doing is collecting  fields  data,  and routinely
squirting it down.  One of the mariners is also in stable
solar orbit,  and still providing similiar  solar data.  

Something  in a planetary orbit,  is subject to much more complex forces.

Comsats, in "stable " geosynch  orbits,  require  almost daily
stationkeeping operations.   

For the occasional  deep space bird,  like PFF  after pluto,  sure
it could be left on  "auto-pilot".  but things like  galileo or
magellan,  i'd suspect they need enough  housekeeping that
even untended they'd  end up unusable after a while.

The better question  should be.

Why not transfer  O&M of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding
to support these kind of ongoing science missions.

pat

	When ongoing ops are mentioned,  it seems to  always quote  Operations
and Data analysis.  how much would it cost to collect the data
and let it be analyzed  whenever.  kinda like all that landsat data
that sat around for 15 years before someone analyzed it for the ozone hole.

Ken Arromdee writes

Yes, but tell me how you think your question answers my question. If
the BDs didn't know immediately that they were dealing with feds
(uniform apparel, insignia), they must have figured it out in pretty
short order. Why did they keep fighting? They seemed awfully ready
for having been attacked "without warning". 

Is it just me, or has this part gotten beyond useful?

Gregg is not, as I understand his posts, giving any support to the bounty
on Rushdie's life.  If that's correct, end of one point...

Gregg is using the concept of legal in a way most Westerners don't accept.
His comments about Islamic Law I think make a great deal of sense to him,
and are even making a _little_ sense to me now - if a person is a member
of a group (religion or whatever) they bind themselves to follow the ways
of the group within the bounds of what the group requires as a minimum.
The big bone of contention here that I'm picking up is that in the West
we have secular governments that maintain, more or less, a level of control
and of requirements outside the requirements of optional groups.  I think
the majority of us reading this thread are in tune (note - I didn't say
"in agreement") with the idea that you are finally responsible to the
secular government,  and within that to the group or groups a person may
have chosen.

With that in mind, it not possible under secular law ("legally" as most
people would define the term) to hold a person to a particular group once
they decide to separate from it.  Only if the secular authorities agree
that there is a requirement of some sort (contractual, etc) is there
any secular _enforcement_ allowed by a group to a group member or past
group member.

A religion can, and often does, believe in and require additional duties
of a group member.  And it can enforce the fulfillment of those duties
in many ways - ostracism is common for example.  But the limit comes when
the enforcement would impose unwanted and/or unaccepted onus on a person
_in conflict with secular law_.

This is the difference.  In a theocracy, the requirements of the secular
authorities are, by definition, congruent with the religious authorities.
Outside a theocracy, this is not _necessarily_ true.  Religious requirements
_may_ coincide or may not.  Similiarly, religious consequences _may_ or
may not coincide with secular consequences (if any).

Regards,

Dew

	The word "released" is loaded:  until convicted in CXOurt,
	my children are my own.

			  ^^^^^^^^^

huh? it might be interesting. he is relating the story as I have heard
it, btw.

huh? care to back that up?

Anybody know of an IGES Viewer for DOS/Windows? I need to be able to display 
ComputerVision IGES files on a PC running Windows 3.1. Thanks in advance.

I assume that can only be guessed at by the assumed energy of the
event and the 1/r^2 law.  So, if the 1/r^2 law is incorrect (assume
some unknown material [dark matter??] inhibits Gamma Ray propagation),
could it be possible that we are actually seeing much less energetic
events happening much closer to us?  The even distribution could
be caused by the characteristic propagation distance of gamma rays 
being shorter then 1/2 the thickness of the disk of the galaxy.

Just some idle babbling,
-- 

   Jim Batka  | Work Email:  BATKAJ@CCMAIL.DAYTON.SAIC.COM | Elvis is
              | Home Email:  JBATKA@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU      |   DEAD!

Does anyone know the phone number to a place where i can get
a VGA passthrough?

	I want to hook up my VGA card to my XGA card (whcih you can can).
All I need is the cable that connects them.  It is the same type of
cable that you would connect from your VGA card to say a Video Blaster
or something.

I assume, then, that someone at Thiokol put on their "manager's hat" and said
that pissing off the customer by delaying shipment of the SRB to look inside
it was a bad idea, regardless of where that tool might have ended up.

ON the subject of how many competing RC orders there are, let me point out the
Golden Dawn is only the *outer* order of that tradition.  The inner order is
the Roseae Rubeae et Aurae Crucis.  That's Ruby Rose and Gold Cross, in rough
translation.  The G.'.D.'. is a Rosicrucian order, as are all derivative
groups.  Of course, real Rosicrucians never admit to being Rosicrucian.

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

Please note that there are some radiosity packages in my Resource Listing
(under the Subject 3: FTP list)

Nick.
--
Nick (Nikolaos) Fotis         National Technical Univ. of Athens, Greece
HOME: 16 Esperidon St.,       InterNet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr
      Halandri, GR - 152 32   UUCP:    mcsun!ariadne!theseas!nfotis
      Athens, GREECE          FAX: (+30 1) 77 84 578

USENET Editor of comp.graphics Resource Listing and soc.culture.greece FAQ
NTUA/UA ACM Student Chapter Chair - we're organizing a small conference
        in Comp. Graphics, call if you're interested to participate.

Does anybody know where I can get, via anonymous ftp or otherwise, a PostScript
driver for the graphics libraries GINO verison 3.0A ?

We are runnining on a VAX/VMS and are looking for a way outputing our plots to a
PostScript file...

Basically, any prophet I've ever dealt with has either been busy 
hawking stolen merchandise or selling swampland house lots in 
Florida.  Then you hear all the stories of sexual abuse by prophets
and how the families of victims were paid to keep quiet about it.

Never mind that, but let me tell you about this Chevelle I bought 
from this dude (you guessed it, a prophet) named Mohammed.  I've
got the car for like two days when the tranny kicks, then Manny, 
my mechanic, tells me it was loaded with sawdust!  Take a guess
whether "Mohammed" was anywhere to be found.  I don't think so.

Oh, Mohammed!

Yeah, you, Mohammed!

You slimy mass of pond scum!

Yeah, right!  You're the one should be watching your butt.  You and
your buddy Allah.  The stereo he sold me croaked after two days.
Your ass is grass!

Jim

: I will clarify my earlier quote.  God's laws were originally written for 
: the Israelites.  Jesus changed that fact by now making the Law applicable to
: all people, not just the Jews.  Gentiles could be part of the kingdom of
: Heaven through the saving grace of God.  I never said that the Law was made
: obsolete by Jesus.

Just for reference, here's the earlier quote:
Malcolm Lee (mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca) wrote in reference to Leviticus 21:9
and Deuteronomy 22:20-25:
: These laws written for the Israelites, God's chosen people whom God had
: expressly set apart from the rest of the world.  The Israelites were a
: direct witness to God's existence.  To disobey God after KNOWing that God
: is real would be an outright denial of God and therefore immediately
: punishable.
: Remember, these laws were written for a different time and applied only to
: God's chosen people.  But Jesus has changed all of that.  We are living in
: the age of grace.  Sin is no longer immediately punishable by death.  There
: is repentance and there is salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.  And
: not just for a few chosen people.  Salvation is available to everyone, Jew
: and Gentile alike.

These are two conflicting statements.  To say one is a clarification of the
other is a breach of logic.  I don't mind people shifting their position on
an issue.  It irritates me when it is said under the premise that no change
was made.  What about Deuteronomy 22:20-25?  Is it wrong now?  Did Jesus
change that?

: If anything, He clarified the Law such as in that quote you made.  In the
: following verses, Jesus takes several portions of the Law and expounds upon
: the Law giving clearer meaning to what God intended.

Sure he does this.  However, he doesn't address the notion of stoning
non-virgin brides, because this needs no clarification.  Are you going to
deny that Deuteronomy 22:20-25 is not patently clear in its intent?

: I think you will agree with me that there are in today's world, a lot of
: modern-day Pharisees who know the bible from end to end but do not believe
: in it.  What good is head knowledge if there is nothing in the heart?

I'll agree that there is a lot of modern day Pharisees that know the Bible
from end to end and don't believe in it.  Depending on how they use this
knowledge, they can be scary.  They can argue any position they desire, and
back it up with selected parts of the Bible.  Such Pharisees include David
Koresh and Adolph Hitler.  I will qualify this by saying *I don't know* if
they actually believed what they were preaching, but the ends certainly
made the means look frightening.

However, just as scary are those that don't know much of the Bible, but
believe every word.  In fact, this is probably scarier, since there are far
more of these people, from what I've seen.  In addition, they are very easy
to manipulate by the aforementioned Pharisees, since they don't know enough
to debate with these people.

: Christianity is not just a set of rules; it's a lifestyle that changes one's
: perspectives and personal conduct.  And it demands obedience to God's will.

No, it demands obedience to a book.  If God came down and personally told
me how I should behave, then I would say that I would be doing God's will
by doing it.  However, if preachers, pastors, and evangelists tell me to
obey the will of a book written by people who have been dead for close to
two millenia (even longer for the OT), even if I follow everything in it
with my heart, I could scarcely be honest with myself by saying I'm doing
the will of God.

: Some people can live by it, but many others cannot or will not.  That is
: their choice and I have to respect it because God respects it too.

Well, if God respects it so much, how come there is talk in the Bible about
eternal damnation for non-believers?  I see little respect eminating from
the god of the Bible.  I see a selfish and spiteful god.

: God be with you,

Not yours, thanks ;)

: Malcolm Lee  :)

Rob Lanphier
lanphi872@snake.cs.uidaho.edu
lanph872@uidaho.edu

And for the curious, here is my earlier post:

It is good to remember that every translation is to some extent an
interpretation, so (as you point out below) one must really go back to
the original Arabic.  Regarding the verses relevant to nature, I prefer
to use Dr. Maurice Bucaille's translations (in his book, "The Bible, the
Qur'an and Science") for in general his translations are more literal.
 
Maurice Bucaille translates the portion of the verse you are addressing
as 

"...Each one is travelling with an orbit in its own motion."

(Also note that "the celestial bodies" in the first translation quoted
by you above is the translator's interpolation -- it is not existent in
the original Arabic, which is why it is included in brackets.) 

You're right, what the verses _do_ contain isn't all that remarkable.

However, Dr. Bucaille (a surgeon, that's how he's a "Dr.") thinks it is
significant that the above verse contains no geocentric ideas, even
though geocentrism was all the rage up until the 17th century (?) or so.
(And this goes for the rest of the Qur'an as well, which has about 750
verses or so regarding nature, I think I remember reading once.)

        Well, lets see....I took a class on this last fall, and I have no
notes so I'll try to wing it...  
        Here's how I understand it. Remember from stellar evolution that 
black holes and neutron stars(pulsars) are formed from high mass stars,
M(star)=1.4M(sun).  High mass stars live fast and burn hard, taking
appoximately 10^5-10^7 years before going nova, or supernova.  In this time,
they don't live long enough to get perturbed out of the galactic plane, so any
of these (if assumed to be the sources of GRB's) will be in the plane of the
galaxy.  
        Then we take the catalog of bursts that have been recieved from the
various satellites around the solar system, (Pioneer Venus has one, either
Pion. 10 or 11, GINGA, and of course BATSE) and we do distribution tests on our
catalog.  These tests all  show, that the bursts have an isotropic
distribution(evenly spread out in a radial direction), and they show signs of
homogeneity, i.e. they do not clump in any one direction.  So, unless we are
sampling the area inside the disk of the galaxy, we are sampling the UNIVERSE.
Not cool, if you want to figure out what the hell caused these things.  Now, I
suppose you are saying, "Well, we stil only may be sampling from inside the
disk."  Well, not necessarily.  Remember, we have what is more or less an
interplanetary network of burst detectors with a baseline that goes waaaay out
to beyond Pluto(pioneer 11), so we should be able, with all of our detectors de
tect some sort of difference in angle from satellite to satellite.  Here's an 
analogy:  You see a plane overhead.  You measure the angle of the plane from
the origin of your arbitrary coordinate system.  One of your friends a mile
away sees the same plane, and measures the angle from the zero point of his
arbitrary system, which is the same as yours.  The two angles are different,
and you should be able to triangulate the position of your burst, and maybe
find a source.  To my knowledge, no one has been able to do this.  
        I should throw in why halo, and corona models don't work, also.  As I
said before, looking at the possible astrophysics of the bursts, (short
timescales, high energy) black holes, and pulsars exhibit much of this type of
behavior.  If this is the case, as I said before, these stars seem to be bound
to the disk of the galaxy, especially the most energetic of the these sources.
When you look at a simulated model, where the bursts are confined to the disk,
but you sample out to large distances, say 750 mpc, you should definitely see
not only an anisotropy towards you in all direction, but a clumping of sources 
in the direction of the  galactic center.  As I said before, there is none of
these characteristics.  

Toronto Siggraph 
================

What: ``Chance's Art'': 2D Graphics and Animation on the Indigo.

By:    Ken Evans, Imagicians Artware, Inc. 

When:  Tuesday 20 April 1993 7:00pm-9:00pm 

Where: The McLuhan Centre for Culture and Technology
       University of Toronto
       39A Queen's Park Crescent
       Toronto

Who:   Members and non-members alike 
       (non-members encouraged to become members...)

Abstract:

Imagicians Artware, Inc. is entering into early beta site testing on Silicon 
Graphics workstations of a new 2D abstract artwork and animation package called 
Chance's Art.  The package will be described and demonstrated, and some of the 
technical issues will be discussed.  Marketing plans will be outlined.  The 
talk will also present some of the technical and business problems increasingly 
confronting small startup software companies today, and some of the 
opportunities this situation presents.

Time after the event will be allocated for hands-on demonstrations to 
interested parties.  Silicon Graphics is graciously providing an Indigo for 
this event.  Myck Kupka will also be demonstrating his computerized interactive 
reflective stereoscope, which is installed upstairs in the McLuhan Centre, so 
feel free to drop by for a demonstration before or after the event. BTW, be 
sure to sing "Happy Birthday, Myck"...

The names of nominees for our Siggraph executive offices will be announced at 
this meeting.  Nominations will still be open until the election at our 
May 18th event; call Myck Kupka at 465-0943 or fax to 465-0729.  

Directions: The McLuhan Coachhouse is on the east side of Queen's Park 
Crescent, just NORTH of Wellesley, SOUTH of St. Joseph St., BEHIND (EAST of) 
39 Queen's Park Crescent, which is the centre for Mediaeval Studies.  

Not any more so than

      holding people against their will is wrong
      if you hold people against their will we will punish you
      our punishment will be to hold you against your will

Is there any punishment which isn't something which, if done by a private
person to another private person for no apparent reason, would lead to
punishment?  (Fines, I suppose.)

Hi all,
I am looking into methods I can use to turn my Linux based BBS into a full color
Graphical BBS that supports PC, Mac, Linux, and Amiga callers. 
Originally I was inspired by the NAPLPS graphics standard (a summary of 
which hit this group about 2 weeks ago). 
Following up on software availability of NAPLPS supporting software I find
that most terminal programs are commercial the only resonable shareware one being
PP3 which runs soley on MSDOS machines leaving Mac and Amiga users to buy full
commercial software if they want to try out the BBS (I know I wouldn't)

Next most interesting possibility is to port MGR to PC, Mac, Amiga. I know there
is an old version of a Mac port on bellcore.com that doesn't work under System 7
But I can't seem to find the source anywhere to see if I can patch it.

Is there a color version of MGR for Linux? 
I know there was an alpha version of the libs out last year but I misplaced it.

Does anyone on this group know if MGR as been ported to PC or Amiga ?
I can't seem to send a message to the MGR channel without it bouncing.

Does anyone have any other suggestions for a Linux based GUI BBS ?

Yesterday I wrote a program to do bilinear interpolation ala Numerical
Recipes, with the PBMPLUS libraries.  I'm pretty happy with the results,
but I'm looking for any already-coded non-linear interpolation schemes
before I go ahead an try to write one.  Any pointers?

--

The supersonic booms hear a few months ago over I belive San Fran, heading east
of what I heard, some new super speed Mach 25 aircraft?? What military based
int he direction of flight are there that could handle a Mach 25aircraft on its
landing decent?? Odd question??

And organized religion is a religion built from organized values.
And Ford Tempo is a Tempo built from Ford values.
And rational response is response built from rational values.
And unconditional surrender is surrender built from unconditional values.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
          uncle!

GS> How about transferring control to a non-profit organisation that is
GS> able to accept donations to keep craft operational.

I seem to remember NASA considering this for some of the Apollo
equipment left on the moon, but that they decided against it.

Or maybe not...

are you sure 45g is the right number? as far as i know, pilots are
blackout in dives that exceed 8g - 9g. 45g seems to be out of human
tolerance. would anybody clarify this please.

lan

   Just because the 68070 can run upto 15Mhz doesn't mean the CD-I
is running at that speed.  I said -> I understand it is a 68070 running
at something like 7Mhz.  I am not sure, but I think I read this a long
time ago.

   Anyway, still with 15Mhz, you need sprites for a lot of tricks for
making cool awesome games (read psygnosis).

It's not a bad question: I don't have any refs that list this algorithm
either. But thinking about it a bit, it shouldn't be too hard.

1) Take three of the points and find the plane they define as well as
the circle that they lie on (you say you have this algorithm already)

2) Find the center  of this circle. The line passing through this center
perpendicular to the plane of the three points passes through the center of
the sphere.

3) Repeat with the unused point and two of the original points. This
gives you two different lines that both pass through the sphere's
origin. Their interection is the center of the sphere.

4) the radius is easy to compute, it's just the distance from the center to
any of the original points.

I'll leave the math to you, but this is a workable algorithm. :-)

An alternate method would be to take pairs of points: the plane formed
by the perpendicular bisector of each line segment pair also contains the
center of the sphere. Three pairs will form three planes, intersecting
at a point. This might be easier to implement.

: I'm trying out the C++ graphics package InterViews. Besides the man pages
: on the classes, I haven't got any documentation. Is there anything else
: around? Furthermore, can anyone send me a (small!) example program
: which shows how to use these classes together ? I would be very gratefull...

To: margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis)
From: anthony.landreneau@ozonehole.com

LM>>The rape has passed, there is nothing that will ever take that away.

LM>True.  But forcing her to remain pregnant continues the violation of
LM>her body for another 9 months.  I see this as being unbelievably cruel.

Life is not a "violation". As for cruel, killing a living being solely
because it exsist. That my friend is down right cold.

                                   Anthony

 * SLMR 2.1 * What's the difference between an Orange?
                      
But now you are contradicting yourself in a pretty massive way,
and I don't think you've even noticed.

In another part of this thread, you've been telling us that the
"goal" of a natural morality is what animals do to survive.

But suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long
term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some 
other species, either terrestrial or alien.

Does that make it moral to do so?

Hi,
has anyone more info about the XGA-2 chipset?
HW-funcs, TrueColor, Resolutions,...
Any boards with XGA-2 out yet?

thanks
Rainer

-- 
Rainer Leberle	                           rleberle@sparc2.cstp.umkc.edu
University of Kansas City, MO  

Can someone give me the title of a good VGA graphics programming book?
Please respond by email. Thanks!

			--Yuan

A lot of people won't agree with me.  That's their right and I respect that.
However, to the point, Jews are also covered by the saving grace of Jesus
Christ.  There are Jews who have become Christians.

There is another useful method based on Least Sqyares Estimation of the sphere equation parameters.

The points (x,y,z) on a spherical surface with radius R and center (a,b,c) can be written as 

   (x-a)^2 + (y-b)^2 + (z-c)^2 = R^2

This equation can be rewritten into the following form:  

   2ax + 2by + 2cz + R^2 - a^2 - b^2 -c^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2

Approximate the left hand part by   F(x,y,z) = p1.x + p2.x + p3.z + p4.1

For all datapoints, i.c. 4, determine the 4 parameters p1..p4 which minimise the average error |F(x,y,z) - x^2 - y^2 - z^2|^2.

In 'Numerical Recipes in C' can be found algorithms to solve these parameters.

The best fitting sphere will have 
- center (a,b,c) = (p1/2, p2/2, p3/2)
- radius R = sqrt(p4 + a.a + b.b + c.c).

So, at last, will this solve you sphere estination problem, at least for the most situations I think ?.

TEXT 44

                       bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam
                           tayapahrta-cetasam
                        vyavasayatmika buddhih
                          samadhau na vidhiyate
  
bhoga--to material enjoyment; aisvarya--and opulence; prasaktanam--for
those who are attached; taya--by such things;
apahrta-cetasam--bewildered in mind; vyavasaya-atmika--fixed in
determination; buddhih--devotional service to the Lord; samadhau--in
the controlled mind; na--never; vidhiyate--does take place.
    
	In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and
material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute
determination for devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take
place.
  
                                PURPORT

	Samadhi means ``fixed mind.'' The Vedic dictionary, the Nirukti,
says, samyag adhiyate 'sminn atma-tattva-yathatmyam: ``When the mind is
fixed for understanding the self, it is said to be in samadhi.''
Samadhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense
enjoyment, nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things.
They are more or less condemned by the process of material energy.

Bhagavad-Gita As It Is

      |                                                         |
      |                                                         |

          101 Courageous Dr. 
          Leage City, TX  77573
          Phone: (713) 538-6000   

Good Luck!
Doug 

Well, if you're going to get upset with this, you might as well direct
some of this moral outrage towards Glavcosmos as well.  They pioneered
this capitalist application of booster adverts long before NASA.
(Sign of the times: a Sony logo on a Soyuz launcher...)

This sounds like something Lowell Wood would think of.  Does anyone
know if he's involved?

This may be the purpose for the University of Colorado people.  My
guess is that the purpose for the Livermore people is to learn how to
build large, inflatable space structures.

If this is true, I think it's a great idea.

Learning how to build to build structures in space in an essential
step towards space development, and given that Freedom appears to be
shrinking towards the vanishing point, I question whether NASA's space
station is going to provide much, if any, knowledge in this area.
(Especially if a design such as Faget's wingless orbiter is chosen...)
If such a project also monitors ozone depletion and demonstrates
creative use of (partial) private sector funding in the process -- so
much the better.

And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
news blip?  How serious is this project?  Is this just in the "wild
idea" stage or does it have real funding?

Not yet.  Though, if this project goes through, I suppose The Return
of Jeremy Rifkin is inevitable...
--

   I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing heresy.  I assumed that heresy
meant a departure from orthodoxy, in which case generally accepted belief is
indeed an important issue.  In this case, the definition of the word "create"
is of great importance, since creation is the issue being discussed.

  I should have said "given the Mormon belief."  If you disagree with the
Mormon belief that creation is more a function of organization of eternally
existent substance than one of ex nihilo creation, then that is the important
point.

  Correction: you interpret the Bible to mean something very specific by
such terms.

   It always cracks me up when anti-Mormons presume to tell Mormons what they
believe.  Mormons do, in fact, believe that all people, including Christ and
Lucifer, are children of God in the sense that we were all created (or
organized or whatever) by Him.  We also believe that being "offspring" of
God has a symbolic sense when applied to being spiritually "born again" of
Him.  Thus the same word can be used to convey different meanings.  This is
how language works, Robert, and it's why making someone an offender for a
word is dangerous.

<...>

   On the contrary, Robert, it is not a red herring at all to show that those
who rely wholly on the Bible cannot seem to agree on what it says.  You say
that one must simply "look at the Bible" to see what it teaches, but centuries
of people doing just that have sho0wn that no one is really sure what it says.
Are we to believe that you are the only one who really understands the
scriptures?

  Let me clarify this one more time.  You did not refer to the Mormon belief
that Jesus needed to be saved, but rather to McConkie's belief in same.  We
keep trying to point out to you that Bruce McConkie is not the source of
Mormon doctrine, and you keep ignoring it. (see below)

  On the contrary, Robert, if you are quoting McConkie's words as Mormon
canon then the question of whether they are canon or not is of *great*
importance.  The fact is that they are not.  Whether or not they indicate
general Mormon belief would only be ascertainable by interviewing a large
number of Mormons.

Don't listen to this guy, he's just a crank.  At first, this business
about being the "one true god" was tolerated by the rest of us,
but now it has gotten completely out of hand.

Besides, it really isn't so bad when people stop believing in you.
It's much more relaxing when mortals aren't always begging you for favors.

Paul-- for the same reason that many other colonies are founded. Why not?

Actually I favor government funded research. It *is* a pump prime
for a lot of basic technologies. I also understand the short term
value of high tech welfare programs. But they can't substitute for
long range wealth generation via commercial enterprise. That's what's
needed to maintain a healthy economy *anywhere*, on Earth or Luna.
I don't see that long term potential on Luna due to a bunch of
factors I outline in another post.

Gary

You know, everybody scoffed at that guy they hung up on a cross too.
He claimed also to be the son of God; and it took almost two thousand 
years to forget what he preached.

	Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Anybody else wonder if those two guys setting the fires were 'agent 
provacateurs.'

I don't care who told you this it is not generally true. I see EVERY single
line item on a contract and I have to sign it. There is no such thing as
wrap at this university. I also asked around here. Ther is no wrap at 
Marquette, University of Wisconsin Madison, Utah State, Weber State or
Embry Riddle U. I am not saying that it doees not happen but in every instance
that I have been able to track down it does not. Also the president of our
University who was Provost at University of West Virgina said that it did
not happen there either and that this figure must be included in the overhead
to be a legitimate charge.

I did they never heard of it but suggest that, like our president did, that
any percentage number like this is included in the overhead.

No Allen you did not. You merely repeated allegations made by an Employee
of the Overhead capital of NASA. Nothing that Reston does could not be dont
better or cheaper at the Other NASA centers  where the work is going on.
Kinda funny isn't it that someone who talks about a problem like this is
at a place where everything is overhead.

Why did the Space News artice point out that it was the congressionally
demanded change that caused the problems? Methinks that you are being 
selective with the facts again.

If it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost
of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year. You stated that your
"friend" at Reston said that with the current station they could resupply it
for a billion a year "if the wrap were gone". This merely points out a 
blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see.

Dennis, University of Alabama in Huntsville.

One consideration to remember is that if you don't turn it off now,
you may not be able to later.  This isn't a case of reaching over and
flipping a switch; much of the spacecraft has to be working correctly
to execute a "turn off" command successfully.  Spacecraft do malfunction
in their old age.  The big concern is not radio clutter from idle
spacecraft, but radio clutter from malfunctioning spacecraft that can
no longer be turned off.

John 12:24-26: "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat
falls onto the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it
produces much grain.
  "He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in
this world will keep it for eternal life.
  "If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My
servant will be also.  If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor."

Why would I want an eternal life if I hate this one?

If we were created by a deity, why would that deity not wish us to
enjoy what he has given us?

Why would I want to live forever?  The challenge in my life is that I
will die, and that I must give my life the meaning I wish it to have
before that happens.  My time is here and will someday pass; I will be
content to live on in the memories of my friends, and once they too
are dead, then I will no longer have any reason to exist.

In short: even if your deity *does* exist, that doesn't automatically
mean that I would worship it.  I am content to live my own life, and
fend for myself, so when I die, I can be proud of the fact that no
matter where I end up, it will be because of *my* actions and *my* choices.

If your god decides to toss me into a flaming pit for this, then so be
it.  I would much rather just cease to exist.  But if your god wants
my respect and my obedience, then it had better earn these; and if it
does, then they will be very strong and true.

Jesus wasn't the only one who rose from the dead -- I think it was
Osiris who did the same, as well as a few characters from Greek or
Norse legend, if memory serves.

But still: WHY would I want to rise from the dead?  Why do *you* want to?

If your god wants to win my devotion, then it knows what it can do --
provide some way for me to believe without having to resort to blind
faith that could be applied equally well to any religion.

That's precisely it.  I neither see nor know Zeus either, nor Odin.
Shall I offer them the same devotion I offer Jesus?

You've got to understand my point-of-view: I see Christians spouting
Bible verse all the time as if it were some sort of magic spell that
will level all opposition.  Truth is, it's not.  Robert has never
demonstrated that he actually understands what the verses imply; he
just rattles them off day by day.  Some brazenly fly in the face of
common sense and reality, and I point these out where I can.

But even more than that, even when Christians *do* try to explain the
verses in their own words, they do so from a Christian point of view,
which is that every human being would want to be a Christian if only
he or she understood the Christian message properly, and then all
strife and suffering on the earth would end.  Here's the problem with
that: substitute "Moslem" or "Buddhist" or "Satanist" instead of
"Christian", and it means the same thing.

Christanity is a very nice belief set around a very nice book.  But if
you want to make me believe that it has any bearing on the REAL WORLD,
you've got some convincing to do.

And in my opinion, you're bumbling about blindly making up entities
where there aren't any, and depriving yourself of a true understanding
and enjoyment of your life.  As long as you keep your beliefs to
yourself, I'll keep my beliefs to myself -- but as soon as you start
waving them around, expect me to toss in my opinions, too.

 Could you explain what any of the above pertains to? Is this a position 
statement on something or typing practice? 
--

In spite of my great respect for the people you speak of, I think their
cost estimates are a bit over-optimistic. If nothing else, a working SSTO
is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience
base. It therefore seems that SSTO development should cost at least as
much as a typical airliner development. That puts it in the $3G to $5G
range.

True it and the contest would result in a much larger market. But I
don't think it would be enough to attract the investors given the
risks involved.

If you could gurantee the SSTO costs and gurantee that it captures
100% of the available launch market, then I think you could
do it.

  Allen

I've been following discussions about the Delta Clipper program, and I
have one small question.  As I understand it, the DC-X derived orbital
vehicle (DC-Y & 1) is to reenter the atmosphere sort of sideways, not
completely nose-first.  So why is the DC-Y look symmetric in every drawing
I've seen?  I would think that an asymmetric design, sort of like 
wingless Orbiter, may work better, since less shielding is required on the
top side.  Can anybody explain?  

- Ken Kobayashi
kkobayas@husc.harvard.edu

-- 

You're admitting a lot more than that.  You are admitting that
your morals are situational.   You are admitting that the actions
of other people and the situation you are in help to determine
how you judge the moral significance of one of your own actions.

If you employ X degree of force, that's not moral, but if you employ
X degree of force, but previously someone else has employed Y degree
of force, and the situation is thus-and-so, that *is* moral.

This is quite different from saying "Employing force on other people
is immoral, period.   Unfortunately, from time to time we are obliged
to do this immoral thing for reasons of self-preservation, and so
we have to bear the moral consequences of that.

For what it's worth - and yes, I know you claim to be an agnostic -
it's this ability to re-label things from "immoral" to "moral" 
that I find one of the *least* attractive qualities of the religious
mind.

#The better question  should be.
#Why not transfer  O&M of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding
#to support these kind of ongoing science missions.

Since we don't have the money to keep them going now, how will
changing them to a seperate agency help anything?

Has anybody gotten CVIEW to work in 32k or 64k color mode on a Trident
8900c hi-color card? At best the colors come out screwed up, and at worst the 
program hangs. I loaded the VESA driver, and the same thing happens on 2 
different machines.

	If it doesn't work on the Trident, does anybody know of a viewer that 
does?

This past week I've been playing with some of the R-D (Reaction-
Diffusion, not to be confused with RDS or R&D) techniques
from SIGGRAPH '91.

I was wondering what material is available to explain the control
mechanism a little more.  It seems to me very much like a matter of
picking random magic numbers and sitting back and waiting.  Although
both of the papers (Turk and Witkin & Kass) were very well organized
and extremely helpful, I guess what I need is a more basic description
of the technique, especially wrt the control mechanisms.  The tests
that I did had a tendency to either turn into blurry mud or become
unstable.

Is there any info available online?  Source code would be great but
not necessary.

Thanks!

-- 

In the UIBM PC world, how much of a "standard" has VESA become for
SVGA graphics?  I know there are lots of graphics-board companies out 
there, as well as several graphics chips manufacturers- are they adhering to
the VESA standard, and what effect is/will the VESA Local Bus have on all
of this?
Anyone?

RE: Red, wwhite, and black, the colors of the Imperial German war-flag --

No, I don't mean the LR, whatever that is.  As for which GD, I'm using _The
Complete Golden Dawn System of Magic_ as my source, so (unless Regardie is
lying) I'm pulling the name out the the original order's rituals.  The
multiple modern groups are part of why I through in the comment about all
the "spin-offs".

As a member of the Religious Society of Friends (my membership is in the
Urbana-Champaign (IL) Friends Meeting) I find that amusingly ironic. :)

Not me--I don't want to belong to *anything* which runs around claiming to
be the TRUE whatever.  I find that disgusting. :(

Seconded.   I cycle to work each day, and if we could just get
those damned cars and their cretinous drivers off the road, it
would be a lot more fun.

I've seen a film of it, my memory may be faulty, but as I
remember it the vehicle was slightly over a meter long, with a
thick baseplate 30-40 cm in diameter. I think the narrative said
it was propelled by dynamite sticks. There were four detonations
within about 2 s, the second coming after about 2 m of flight in.
Max altitude seemed to be on the order of 50 m, but that is hard 
to judge.

What an exciting thread (finally!)

Mitra is Sanskrit for Friend, as such He started out as an avatar of Lord Visnu
 mentioned first in the Vedas. Later he seems to have risen to chief prominence
 worshipped by the Persians. Associated with the Sun but NOT the Sun, he is
 the lord of contract honor and obedience, therefore naturally worshipped by
 soldiers. He was ordered by the Sun to slay the bull of heaven and He reluct-
 antly agreed because of His obligation...the blood of that bull spilled and
 grew all earth life...then Mitra and the Sun sat down to eat.

Worship of Lord Mitra ended in Persia with the ascension of the Zoroastrians.

Hundreds of years later He was rediscovered and thrown into the Official Roman
 Pantheon (tm) for some semi-tricky reason, I forget why. But all references of
 Him ended abruptly when He was stricken from same, so apparently His worship
 was some sort of vehicle for advancement in the bureaucracy, like membership
 in the Communist Party was in the Soviet Bloc. The sociology of religion in
 ancient times is fascinating!

Oh, His B-day was 25 Dec. Ahem.

I am not sure if the mystery cult really lasted after His was booted from the
 Roman Imperial God Roster or what. It contained mostly soldiers, with 7 levels
 of initiation. They worshipped underground in caverns in pews. The bull horns
 in those temples were for scaring away or impaling evil spirits, I'm not sure
 that they had Mithraic significance or not.

I don't know that the ritual meal was of a cannibalistic nature as is the
 Christian masses. But eating deities goes way back to Old Kingdom Egypt.

Someone mentioned bullfighting. Did Mithraists sacrifice bulls? I forget. More
 likely, for a religious source, might be the shower of bull's blood enjoyed
 by the worshippers of Cybele on the Day of Blood? Cybele worship extended all
 throughout even up to France bigtime.

     Now doesn't this sound a lot like the "colorful (or otherwise) story 
     from antiquity that somehow tries to (or does) explain natural pheno-
     mena"?  I think I hear what you're saying, but I'm not convinced that
     I know what you mean.  The possibility exists that what _looks_ like
     "myth" on the surface may be after all much more than "just" a story.
     
     * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

God being unknowable, I can't comment on His motives, but it would be
distressing if He allowed us to misunderstand Him through no fault of 
our own.  For sanity's sake we must assume, if we believe in Him at all,
that His message comes through somehow.  The question is whether it comes 
through immediately to every individual, or is contained in a complex 
canon that must be interpreted by experts in consultation with one another, 
or is transmitted directly through appointed representatives who are free
to interpret, extend and modify the canon.  If God's message is indeed
mediated, the further problem arises as to whether the individual under-
stands the mediated message fully and clearly.  Since the responsibility 
for understanding lies ultimately with the individual, we must assume that 
God in His benevolence guides each individual to the appropriate source 
for that individual, whereof the person may or may not drink. 
 
Your example is complicated in our age by the thin line between morality
and politeness.  You might have said "burp", for burping and swearing carry
about the same stigma today.  If you are talking about "taking the Lord's 
name in vain" as a serious transgression, then this example is more a case of 
hypocrisy than of varying moral codes.
 
If there is an absolute moral code, propositions or laws in that code apply
absolutely and universally, by definition.  Conceivably some moral codes
could be subsets of the universal code, as you say at the outset.  So, for
example, God's code could include, "Thou shalt not create Beings without
a hospitable planet to live on", but this law would be inapplicable to us.
Nevertheless, we would be entitled to suppose that all laws applicable
to us are also applicable to God.
 
But when you begin to ask what laws might appear in God's moral code, you have
a sense of the absurdity of the question.  Does God make laws for Himself to
follow?  Perhaps God is not the sort of being to which the category "morality"
can be sensibly applied.

Hi,

	I have a problem, I hope some of the 'gurus' can help me solve.

	Background of the problem:
	I have a rectangular mesh in the uv domain, i.e  the mesh is a 
	mapping of a 3d Bezier patch into 2d. The area in this domain
	which is inside a trimming loop had to be rendered. The trimming
	loop is a set of 2d Bezier curve segments.
	For the sake of notation: the mesh is made up of cells.

	My problem is this :
	The trimming area has to be split up into individual smaller
	cells bounded by the trimming curve segments. If a cell
	is wholly inside the area...then it is output as a whole ,
	else it is trivially rejected. 

	Does any body know how thiss can be done, or is there any algo. 
	somewhere for doing this.

	Any help would be appreciated.

	Thanks, 
	Ani.

I am looking for a WINDOW 3.1 driver  for 
     Cornerstone  DualPage (Cornerstone Technology, Inc) 
video card. Does  anybody know, that has these?  Is there one?

Thanks for any info,

To~nis

Are there any TIFF to anything programs out there for the IBM?
Our scanner works into TIFF, and I can view it on CSHOW 8.1, but 
all of my other programs read errors.  Are there any basic Tiff to 
JPEG, GIF, PCX, BMP, etc...?

Thanks for the time...Email or post acceptable.
Joshuaf

Actually, Hiten wasn't originally intended to go into lunar orbit at all,
so it indeed didn't have much fuel on hand.  The lunar-orbit mission was
an afterthought, after Hagoromo (a tiny subsatellite deployed by Hiten
during a lunar flyby) had a transmitter failure and its proper insertion
into lunar orbit couldn't be positively confirmed.

It should be noted that the technique does have disadvantages.  It takes
a long time, and you end up with a relatively inconvenient lunar orbit.
If you want something useful like a low circular polar orbit, you do have
to plan to expend a certain amount of fuel, although it is reduced from
what you'd need for the brute-force approach.

I agree, I had a hard feeling not believing my grand-grand mother
who told me of elves dancing outside barns in the early mornings.
I preferred not to accept it, even if her statement provided
the truth itself. Life is hard.

Cheers,
Kent

And one of my profs is the chief engineer for the project (Dr. Ron
Humble, Univ. Colorado at Colorado Springs).

I love the idea of an inflatable 1-mile long sign.... It will be a
really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt  (or even better, a
Westford Needle!) comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec.  

<BOOM!>  Whooooooooshhhhhh......  <sputter, sputter>

<okay, PRETEND it would make a sound!>

I hear <insert favorite rumor here> that it will supposedly coincide
with the Atlanta Olympics. 

I wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of the world
if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group of the population. 
It is rather a ridiculous question in some ways, I know, but my newsreader is
down so I am not getting any new postings for a bit, so I figure I might as
well post something new myself.

Also, how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a
higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking.  The
typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the
same inherent motivation, so one is not, intrinsically, different from the
other, qualitatively.  But then again a measuring stick must be drawn
somewhere, and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core,
than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery; ie, how it
expresses its own selfishness.

Idle thoughts...

Adam

Mr DeCenso, in spite of requiring Scholarly opinion on the hanging of Judas,
rejects that the scholarly opinion of the those scholars and then rephrases
those scholars opinion on the subject:

and 

Actually, if you do further research as to the Greek word "apacgw," you will
find that it does denote success.  Those scholars did indeed have an excellent
reason to assume that the suicide was successful.  As I pointed out, I
recently checked several Lexicons:

A couple simply stated "hanged oneself", and a couple were more explicit 
and stated that "apacgw" means specifically "kill yourself by hanging." A
couple also noted that the meaning of one the root words for "apacgw" is
"strangle, throttle or choke" (which pretty much invalidates the guy who
suggested to David Joslin that Judas was hung upside down).  One of the best
references though, "Robinson's Greek and English Lexicon of the New
Testament," not only stated the translation, it gave both the root words, the
literal translation, related greek words which use the same roots, and also
other presented specific examples of the word in greek literature (to give
further context).  

The word "apagchw" has two root words: "gchw" is the "to strangle" root, and
the root word "apo" means literally "away." This root words is included in
words which denote a transition.  It can mean a transition in place (eg: the
greek word "apagello" means to send a message).  "Apo" can also denote a
change in state and specifically the change from life to death.  Robinson
specifically makes comparison to the word "apokteiuo," which means "to kill."
In literal meaning the word "apacgw" means "to throttle, strangle to put out
of the way," and implicitly denotes a change in life state (ie: away from
life, to death).  So while the word "apacgw" does mean "to hang," it
specifically denotes a death as well.  Thus Robinson is quite specific when he
state that it means "to hang oneself, to end one's life by hanging." He then
notes the the use of "apacgw" in Homers Odessy 19:230 to denote context.  He
presents that example of "apacgw" as being used to explicitly mean "suicide by
hanging." Now since there is a perfectly good word for strangling, without the
added denotation of "death," and as you insist that the Bible was written by
God, and every word is precicely correct, you are stuck with the complete
meaning of "apacgw" (ie: Since the word "apacgw" was used, then death is
denoted as the result). 

By the way, I note that Mr DeCenso also presents an example of "apacgw":

Note Mr DeCenso, as you say, the Septuagint was a translation from Hebrew to
Greek, and you have not shown the original meaning of the Hebrew (ie" the the
Hebrew say "and died"), and thus whether it was simply echoed in the Greek. 
It should also be pointed out that, regardless of the added "and died", the
correct translation would still be "apacgw," as the man did indeed die from
strangulation (redundant, but correct).  Further, we have evidence that the
Septuagint was repeatedly rewritten and reedited (which included versions
which contradicted each other), and such editing was not even necessarily
executed by Greeks.  Thus I am not sure that you can use the Septuagint as it
now stands, as a paragon of ancient greek.  So, what you really need to prove
your point Mr DeCenso, is an example, in ancient greek, of someone committing
"apacgw" and surviving.  Otherwise I would see you as simply making worthless
assertions without corresponding evidence. 

Now I would note Mr DeCenso, that everytime I go out of my way to research it
one of your apparently contrived exegisis, I pretty much find it false.  Thus,
I think that if you are going to add to the text, something over and above
what the source clearly says, then you had better have an explicit Greek or
historical source to justify it. 

By the way, as to Mr Rose's statement about trees around the Potter's Field:

Unless Mr Rose can show that these trees are two thousand years old, or that
there are 2000 year old stumps there, or has a 2 thousand year old description
of the area which mentions such trees, then it is inappropriate for him to
assert that the present placement of trees prove the location of the trees two
thousand years ago (after all, things change). 

Now as to your other argument, ie: that the money Judas used is not the same
as the 30 silvers:

True, Peter (or the author of Acts) does not specifically call Judas' betrayal
"an iniquity," but for that matter, neither does John specifically call Judas'
actions "an iniquity" either.  Further John 13:29 did not say that Judas took

    "Some thought that because, Judas had the money box, Jesus was telling
     him "Buy what we need for the feast"; or that he should give something
     to the poor, So after receiving the morsel he immediately went out, and
     it was night."

Note that it is said that Judas left, it does not say that he took the money
box.  Thus when I see your explanation it still seems to me you would choose
the a an unproven iniquity, mentioned by another author, in a different
book, written at a different time, over the iniquity explicitly mentioned by
the author of acts.  I find this forced and contrived. 

Of course this particular argument becomes moot, since we have have seen
evidence that "apacgw" means suicide.  You see, since Judas' hanging was
successful, he could not have spent the money mentioned in John 13:29, because
Matthew and Mark explicitly say the betrayal was on the high holy day (ie:
Passover), and thus he could not have spent the money before killing himself
the next day.  Thus the money which bought the "Field of Blood" would have to
have been the 30 pieces of silver (Of course he got the 30 pieces of silver
that night as well, and thus couldn't have spent that either.  Oh dear, I
believe that the house of cards is comming down). 

Maybe we should at this point, discuss now whether Jesus was crucified on
Friday or Saturday as that is now part of the argument about Judas.

By the way, as to where the prophesy of the Potter's field came from (ie: the
mention of it in Matthew), you say:

I am reminding you now to discuss it now. It's all part of the same verse we
are discussing, and I wish you would quit procrastinating and sidestepping 
these issues.
 
				Later,

	A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
				David Hume, Philosopher
				An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding

I assume you have evidence that he was responsible for the deaths?
 
Again, I'd like to see some evidence.
 
Once again, where's your proof? Suicide is considered a sin by Branch
Davidians.  Also, Koresh said over and over again that he was not going to
commit suicide.  Furthermore, all the cult experts said that he was not
suicidal.  David Thibedeau (sp?), one of the cult members, said that the fire
was started when one of the tanks spraying the tear gas into the facilities
knocked over a lantern.
 
Evidence please?

I'd like to point out that the Bible says "Do not commit murder." The NKJ
translation mistranslates.  Self-defense was never considered murder.  The
reason why they were stockpiling weapons is because they were afraid the
government would try something.  Their fears were obviously well founded.
--Ray Cote

Kent: With all due respect, how can I take you seriously, when you have
the NAMES wrong in the 1st place? E.g.:

	There is no such thing. The correct name is Ancient & Mystical
Order Rosae Crucis, abbreviated AMORC.

	There is no such thing either. It's the Rosicrucian Fellowship.
And they clearly state that they DO NOT pretend to descend from the
Order of the Fama Fraternitatis.

The Lectorium? And who else?

These are NOT Rosicrucian "orders". They are Masonic study groups, none
of which *claims* to be descendant of the original Order.

What is ORC? If you mean AMORC, you didn't even learn the correct
name?!

I don't know about that...I've used Photoshop 2.5 on both a 486dx-50 and a Quadra
950...I'd say they are roughly equal.  If anything the 486 was faster.

You have done no such thing.

An Islamic bank is a bank which operates according to the rules
of Islam in regard to banking. This is done explicitly by the
bank. This was not the case with BCCI.

This is crap. BCCI was motivated by the same motives as other
international banks, with perhaps an emphasis on dealing with
outlaws and the intelligence services of various governments.

Back to childish propaganda again. You really ought to get a life
rather than wasting bandwith on such empty typing. There are thousands
of Islamic banks operating throughout the world which no-one ever hears
about. If you want to talk about corrupted banks we can talk about
all the people who've been robbed by American banks. 

Well, that's the question, isn't it?  The goals are probably not all that
obvious.  We can set up a few goals, like happiness and liberty and
the golden rule, etc.  But these goals aren't inherent.  They have to
be defined before an objective system is possible.

It is not too difficult, one you have goals in mind, and absolute
knoweldge of everyone's intent, etc.

Omniscience is fine, as long as information is not given away.  Isn't
this the resolution of the free will problem?  An interactive omniscient
being changes the situation.

Well, I was speaking about an objective system in general.  I didn't
mention a specific goal, which would be necessary to determine the
morality of an action.

Robert, you keep making references to "orthodox" belief, and saying things
like "it is held that..." (cf. "Kermit" thread).  On what exact body of
theology are you drawing for what you call "orthodox?"  Who is that "holds
that" Luke meant what you said he meant?  Whenever your personal interpretation
of Biblical passages is challenged, your only response seems
to be that one needs merely to "look at the Bible" in order to see the truth,
but what of those who see Biblical things differently from you?  Are we to
simply assume that you are the only one who really understands it?
  Just curious,

That's very interesting.    I wonder, are women's reactions
recorded after a frustrating night with a man?   Is that
considered to be important?

Forwarded from Doug Griffith, Magellan Project Manager

                        MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
                            April 16, 1993

1.  The Magellan mission at Venus continues normally, gathering gravity
data which provides measurement of density variations in the upper
mantle which can be correlated to surface topography.  Spacecraft
performance is nominal.

2.  Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
the end of Cycle-4 and the start of the Transition Experiment.

3.  No significant activities are expected next week, as preparations
for aerobraking continue on schedule.

Well, if everything wouldn't be okay, then tell us what it is that
wouldn't be okay.   That is, if religions were no longer tax-exempt, then
what would be wrong with their lobbying or otherwise attempting to
influence politics?

I noticed this dead horse in your Keywords line. Is this the famous scarlet horse
of Babylon that the Beast (that's 666 for you illuminatti) rides on in those
wonderful mediaeval manuscripts. If so, I fear your announcement that the old
girl is dead may be premature. I bet $20 on her to place in the 6th race at The
Downs last Sunday, and she slid in a bad fifth. So she is not dead. She is just
comatose. (like god that way, I suppose).

Ninja Gourmet
Will fight for food. 

Sorry folks, I should have done this, and meant to just after i hit the 
send key...

Orbital Elements of Comet 1977VII (from Dance files)

p(au)          3.424346
e              0.151899
i              1.0988
cap_omega(0) 243.5652
W(0)         231.1607
epoch       1977.04110

Also, perihelions of Gehrels3 were:

April  1973     83 jupiter radii
August 1970     ~3 jupiter radii

Hope this helps...I'm even less of an orbital mechanic than I am an artist.

Sorry for asking a question that's not entirely based on the
technical aspects of space, but I couldn't find the
answer on the FAQs !

I'm currently in the UK, which makes seeing a Space Shuttle
launch a little difficult.....

However, I have been selected to be an exchange student
at Louisiana State Uni. from August, and I am absolutely
determined to get to see a Space Shuttle launch sometime
during the year at which I will be in America.

I hear there's a bit of a long mailing list, so if someone
can tell me how to get tickets and where to get them from, then
please E-mail me !

Thanks very much for your patience....

(And if anyone else wants to know, tell me and I'll summarize
for you - just to save all those poor people who have to
pay for their links !)

: > This is a good point, but I think "average" people do not take up Christianity
: > so much out of fear or escapism, but, quite simply, as a way to improve their
: > social life, or to get more involved with American culture, if they are kids of
: > immigrants for example.  Since it is the overwhelming major religion in the
: > Western World (in some form or other), it is simply the choice people take if
: > they are bored and want to do something new with their lives, but not somethong
: > TOO new, or TOO out of the ordinary.  Seems a little weak, but as long as it
: > doesn't hurt anybody...

: The social pressure is indeed a very important factor for the majority
: of passive Christians in our world today. In the case of early Christianity
: the promise of a heavenly afterlife, independent of your social status,
: was also a very promising gift (reason slaves and non-Romans accepted
: the religion very rapidly).

If this is a hypothetical proposition, you should say so, if it's
fact, you should cite your sources. If all this is the amateur
sociologist sub-branch of a.a however, it would suffice to alert the
unwary that you are just screwing around ...

For those who are interested in Ray Traced pictures, there is a nice example
on alt.binaries.pictures.misc. The file is called Poolball.gif. It shows a
pooltable with... YES! ... poolballs!
Resolution: 1024x768,  colours: 256 (only).
The TGA (24 bit) version is also available, but a bit big (2.4Mb) to post.
The picture is created with POV-ray.

Enjoy!

_Gerco_
__cgschot@cs.ruu.nl__

Wow, you're quicker to point out heresy than the Church in the
Middle ages. Seriously though, even the Sheiks at Al-Azhar don't
claim that the Shi'ites are heretics. Most of the accusations
and fabrications about Shi'ites come out of Saudi Arabia from the
Wahabis. For that matter you should read the original works of
the Sunni Imams (Imams of the four madhabs). The teacher of
at least two of them was Imam Jafar Sadiq (the sixth Imam of the
Shi'ites). 

The 68070 _does_ exist. It's number was licensed to Philips to make their
own variant. This chip includes extra featurfes such as more I/O ports, 
I2C bus... making it more microcontroller like.

Reading newspapers to learn about this kind of stuff is not the best idea in
the world.  Newspaper reporters are notoriously ignorant on the subject of
religion, and are prone to exaggeration in the interests of having a "real"
story (that is, a bigger headline).

Let's back up to 1935.  At this point, we have the Masoretic text, the
various targums (translations/commentaries in aramaic, etc.), and the
Septuagint, the ancient greek translation.  The Masoretic text is the
standard Jewish text and essentially does not vary.  In some places it has
obvious corruptions, all of which are copied faithfully from copy to copy.
These passages in the past were interpreted by reference to the targums and
to the Septuagint.

Now, the septuagint differs from the masoretic text in two particulars:
first, it includes additional texts, and second, in some passages there are
variant readings from the masoretic text (in addition to "fixing"/predating
the various corrupted passages).  It must be emphasized that, to the best of
my knowledge, these variations are only signifcant to bible scholars, and
have little theological import.

The dead sea scroll materials add to this an ancient *copy* of almost all of
Isaiah and fragments of various sizes of almost all other OT books.  There
is also an abundance of other material, but as far as I know, there is no
sign there of any hebrew antecdent to the apocrypha (the extra texts in the
septuagint).  As far as analysis has proceeded, there are also variations
between the DSS texts and the masoretic versions.  These tend to reflect the
septuagint, where the latter isn't obviously in error.  Again, though, the
differences (thus far) are not significant theologically.  There is this big
expectation that there are great theological surprises lurking in the
material, but so far this hasn't happened.

The DSS *are* important because there is almost no textual tradition in the
OT, unlike for the NT.

Has anybody compiled VOGL-graphics library
for IBM-PC? I need to call it from MS-Fortran
but don't have MS-C to compile the sources.

Thanks for any help...

Ok, this is the only thing I will comment on from Stan at this time...
part of this forum we call rec.scouting is for policy discussions and
related topics.  This is a policy discussion, and involves related 
topics.  this is not a "fringe" group discussion.  obviously, it 
engenders strong feelings from all sides of the issues at hand. 
Wether a particular view is anti-societal or not is your opinion, 
and yours alone, don't try to make it seem otherwise. 
If you do not wish to engage in this discussion, use a kill file. 
If you wish to continue in this discussion, please do so, knowing 
full well the implications that apply.
I know for myself that I plan on continuing with the discussion when 
i have the wish to have input.  I for one am tired of people trying to 
say that this is not a matter significant for this group!  It is, and 
quite so. Especially for those of us who feel the impact more closely.

There was a very useful article in one of the 1989 issues of
Transactions On Graphics. I believe Maureen Stone was one of
the authors. Sorry not to be more specific. I don't have the
reference here with me.

The article actually was more general than this, giving a way to decide
whether a given (cubic) Bezier curve contains cusps, intersection points
or whatever wierdness. The same treatment is also available in SIGGRAPH 89
course notes for the course called "Math for Siggraph" or something like
that.

The recent rise of nostalgia in this group, combined with the
  incredible level of utter bullshit, has prompted me to comb
  through my archives and pull out some of "The Best of Alt.Atheism"
  for your reading pleasure.  I'll post a couple of these a day
  unless group concensus demands that I stop, or I run out of good
  material.

  I haven't been particularly careful in the past about saving
  attributions.  I think the following comes from John A. Johnson,
  but someone correct me if I'm wrong.  This is probably the longest
  of my entire collection.

________________________________________________________

                                  So that the
                                  Prophecy be
                                   Fulfilled

                                     * * *

       In considering the Christian religion, and judging it
according to its claims, it is important to look at its claims at
fulfilling earlier Jewish prophecy.  The scribe Matthew is perhaps
the most eager to draw out what he thinks are prophetic answers in
the career of Jesus of Nazareth.  As you will see, Matthew's main
strategy is to take various Old Testament passages, often not even
about the promised Messiah, and apply them to the circumstances in
the New Testament.  We must also bear in mind the question of the
authenticity of the accounts.  Since the gospels were written at
least 35 years after Jesus was executed, we do not know how much
happened exactly as stated.  But, for purposes of analysis, we
will take particular claims at face value.

Immanuel:

       We begin, of course, at the beginning.

       (Mt 1.21-22):  "[Mary] will bear a son, and you,
       Joseph, will name him 'Jesus' (which means G'd is
       salvation), for he will save his people from their
       sins."  All this happened to fulfil what the lord had
       spoken by a prophet:

       [Isaiah 7.1-16]:  In the days of Ahaz (c. 750 BCE),
       king of Judah, Rezin of Syria and Pekah of Israel made
       war on Jerusalem (capitol of Judah), but could not
       quite conquer it.  When the house of David (i.e. Ahaz
       and his court in Judah) were told of this, ...its
       heart and the heart of its people shook...   And, the
       lord G'd said to Isaiah, "go to meet with Ahaz..." 
       ...And the lord spoke to Ahaz (through prophet Isaiah,
       naturally) saying, "Ask a sign of G'd your lord.  It
       can be as deep as Sheol or as high as heaven."  But,
       Ahaz said, "I won't ask; I will not put the lord to a
       test."  Then (Isaiah) said, "Hear then, O house of
       David.  Is it not enough for you to weary men, that
       you must weary my god too?  Therefore, the lord
       himself will give you a sign:  Behold, a young woman
       is with child and will bear a son, and name him
       "Immanuel," which means, "G'd is with us."   He will
       eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse evil
       and choose good.  For, before the child knows how to
       refuse evil and choose good, the land of the two kings
       you dread will have been deserted...

Matthew homes in on just the sentence that is in italics. 
Further, he the Hebrew word "almah," (young woman), as
specifically, "virgin."  But, this is not a prophecy about the
Messiah.  It is not a prophecy about an event to happen 750 years
later.  It is not a prophecy about a virgin (bethulah) mother.  In
short, it not about Jesus.  Matthew has made use of a verse out of
context, and tries to make it fit the specific case of Mary.  It
should be noted that if we want to read the prophecy in a general
manner, a very general one, it can be made to fit Mary.  Mary,
virgin or not, was indeed a young woman with child.  Of course,
the fit is shady and has problems.  Jesus, while thought of by
later Christians to be G'd walking among men, was never called by
the name, Immanuel.  If Christianity wished to claim this prophecy
for Jesus, it becomes at best a cut-and-paste prophecy... a second
class prophecy.   Not too convincing.

Egypt:

       After Jesus's birth in Bethlehem, Matthew tells about a
quick (and elsewhere unmentioned) excursion to Egypt, as if he
wishes to liken Jesus to Moses.  This was done to escape an
alleged infanticidal rampage of the king, Herod.

       [Mt 2.15]  ...and remained there until the death of
       Herod.  This was to fulfil what the lord had spoken:
       "Out of Egypt I have cal-led my son."

What the lord really said was this.

       [Hosea 11.1]  When Israel was a child, I loved him. 
       And, out of Egypt I called my son.  The more I called
       them (my people), the more they went from me; they
       kept sacrificing to the Ba'als, and kept burning
       incense to idols.

Matthew conveniently omits the rest of Hosea's oracle.  But, it
was indeed Israel that, once called out of Egypt, wanted to
return.  This is history.  Jesus is certainly not being spoken of
here.  And, if we are to draw some kind of parallel here, we wind
up with a Jesus that flees and resists G'd.   Again, this prophecy
is just not as convincing as Matthew probably had hoped.

Rachel Weeps:

        While Jesus is off vacationing in Egypt, Matthew says that
King Herod sought to kill him, and thus ordered the executions of
all young male children.  Matthew then writes,

       [Mt 2.17-18]   By this, that which was spoken by the
       prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:

       "A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud
       lamentation-- Rachel weeping for her children;
       she refused to be consoled, because they were
       no more."   

The reference is to a passage in Jeremiah 31.15, referring to the
carrying off of Israel into exile by Sargon (of Assyria) in 722
BCE.  Rachel, the ancestor of the major tribes of Israel, Ephraim,
and Manasseh, is said to weep for her descendants who are "no
more."  It is metaphorical, of course, since Rachel lived and dies
before the Hebrews were even in the Egyptian exile.
       It is interesting to note that it was Leah, not Rachel, who
was the ancestor of the Judeans (the land where Jesus and
Bethlehem were).  If anyone should do weeping for her "children,"
it is Leah.  The only connexion that Rachel has with Bethlehem is
that the legends have it that she was buried north of the city,
"on the way to Ephrath, (Bethlehem)."
       As for Herod and his infanticide, it is rather unlikely
that such an event actually occurred.  One never knows, but the
event is not mentioned or alluded to anywhere else in the Bible,
nor is it mentioned in any of the secular records of the time. 
Herod was particularly unliked in his reign, and many far less
evil deeds of Herod were carefully recorded.  This might be a
prime example of how events were added to Jesus's life to enhance
the message of the church's gospel.
       Because of the whole story's similarity to the tale of the
infant Moses in Egypt, it is highly likely that it is a device set
up by Matthew to add prophetic, yet artificial, approval of Jesus.
It is not surprising that Matthew conveniently neglects to mention
the rest of the Jeremiah quote.   The "children" the prophet
speaks of are not dead, but exiled in the Assyrian Empire.  G'd
comforts the weeping Rachel, saying that the children will be
returned-- he will gather them back together.  Of course, this
would not suit Matthew's purpose, as the children he speaks of are
dead for good.  Again, the "prophecy" Matthew sets up is not even
that, and to anyone who bothers to check it out, is not too

The Nazarene:

       We do not even have to go to the next chapter to find
another Matthean prophecy.  After leaving Egypt, Joseph & wife
take the infant Jesus to live in the city of Nazareth, 

       [Mt 2.23]  ...that what was spoken of by the prophets
       might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene."

First thing we notice is that Matthew does not mention the name of
the prophet(s) this time.  Second, we have to ask who "He" is. 
There are no Messianic prophecies speaking of a Nazarene.  Worse,
there are no prophecies, period, mentioning a Nazarene.  Still
worse, there are no Nazarenes mentioned in the Old Testament at
all.  In the book of Judges, an angel tells Samson's mother that
she will,

       [Judges 13.5]  "...conceive and bear a son.  No razor
       shall tough his head, for he will be a Nazirite to his
       god from the day of his birth.  He will deliver Israel
       from the hands of the Philistines."

This is of course not a prophecy of Jesus, or the messiah of G'd. 
But, it is the best that can be found.  Obviously, Matthew has
begun to go overboard in cut-and-paste prophecies, in that he is
simple making them up now.

Bearing our
Diseases:

       Jesus next goes around healing people of physical illnesses
and disabilities.

       [Mt 8.17]   This was to fulfil what was spoken by the
       prophet Isaiah, "He took our infirmities and bore our
       diseases."

As expected, the verse quoted in Isaiah is quoted out of context,
and a few words are skewed to fit the Christian scheme.  We have,

       [Is 53.4]  Surely he, [the suffering servant], has
       borne our sickness, and carried our pains.

From a reading of the surrounding passages in Isaiah, we know that
the prophet is speaking in present tense of the collective nation
of Israel, Jehovah's chosen servant and people.  He speaks to the
Israelites suffering in exile, in the voice of the gentile nations
that look upon it.  This image is deeply ingrained in Jewish
identity --an image of a chastised, yet cherished, Israel as the
instrument of the nations' salvation by G'd.
      The verses speak of Israel taking on the sicknesses which
are the literal and metaphorical manifestations of guilt and
discipline.  They do not speak of a "servant" going around and
healing people.  Notice that the servant in Isaiah takes on the
sicknesses and pains of the nations (and individual Jews).  Jesus,
as we all know, did not take the diseases onto himself.  The
verses here in Isaiah are not a prophecy of something to come, but
rather something that had already happened.  While it is believed
that Jesus took on the eternal punishment of hell, he did not bear
the illnesses he healed.  So, while someone might want to say
that, figuratively, Jesus reenacted the deeds of Israel in his
spiritual atonement, he has to admit that Matthew's parallel
misses where he intended it to have its effect.

Silent Messiah:

      Upon healing multitudes of commoners, it is said that Jesus
ordered them to keep quiet, presumable so that he wouldn't arouse
the attention of the local rulers.

       [Mt 12.15-21]  This was to fulfill what was spoken by
       the prophet Isaiah.   

       "Behold my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved,
       with whom my soul is pleased.  I will put my spirit on
       him, and he will announce justice to the Gentiles.  He
       will not wrangle or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear
       his voice in the streets.  He will not break a bruised
       reed or quench a smoldering wick until he brings
       justice to victory, and the gentiles will hope in his
       name."

The Isaiah passage quoted reads,

       [Is 42.1-4]  Behold my servant whom I uphold, my
       chosen, in whom my soul delights.  I have put my
       spirit on him, and he will bring forth justice to the
       nations.  We will not cry or lift up his voice, or
       make it heard in the street.  He will not break a
       bruised reed, or quench a smoldering wick.  He will
       faithfully bring forth justice.  He will not fail
       (burn dimly) or be discouraged (bruised) until he has
       established justice in the earth.  And the coastlands
       await his law.

You see, Matthew has conveniently left out part of the passage,
because it does not suit the dealings of Jesus.  Christians could
never think of Jesus failing, never would the "light" of mankind
burn dimly.  But, the servant nation of Israel will indeed come to
an end when its job is done.  When the gentiles come to embrace
G'd there will no longer be a chosen people, but rather all will
be the children of G'd.  Also, the ending phrase has been changed
from the Judaic "...the coastlands await his law." to the
Christologic, "the Gentiles will hope in his name."   While the
original proclaims the Torah law of Jehovah, the other rewrites it
to fit its strange doctrine of "believing in the name."  If one
has any doubt the servant referred to is not Jesus, one has only
to read the whole chapter, Isaiah 42, and hear about the beloved
but blind and imperfect servant, "a people robbed and
plundered..."   So, we see that when Matthew's attempt at
"prophecy" is examined, it crumbles.

Three Days and
Three Nights:

      Now we come upon a prophecy supposedly uttered by the very
mouth of the god Jesus himself.  He speaks of his crucifixion and
resurrection.

       [Mt 12.40]   For as Jonah was in the belly of the
       whale for three days and three nights, so will the Son
       of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and
       three nights.

Before any further discussion can occur, it is necessary to know
how the Jews understood days.  As far as day names went, each was
24 hours long, lasting from sunset 6pm to the following sunset
6pm.  What was referred to as a "day" was the period of light from
6am to the ending sunset at 6pm.  Thus, according to our time
scale, a sabbath day began at 6pm Friday evening, and lasted until
6pm saturday evening.  This is why the Jews celebrate their
sabbath on the daylight portion of Saturdays, instead of Sundays. 
(It seems like a real miracle that Christians didn't forget that
Saturday was indeed the seventh and last day of the week!)  Thus,
when days and nights are referred to together, 12 hour daylight
portions and 12 hour night periods are being spoken of.  Thus,
Jesus says that he will be in the grave, or in hell, or otherwise
unresurrected for three days and three nights.

      As the good book tells us, Jesus was crucified on the "ninth
hour," which is 3pm, Friday afternoon.  He then was put into the
grave sometime after that.  Then, Jesus left the grave, "rose,"
before dawn of what we call Sunday (The dawn after the sabbath was
over).  What this means is that Jesus was, using our time for
clarity, in the grave from 6pm Friday night to some time before
6am Sunday morning.  We could also add a little time before 6pm
Friday, since the bible is not specific here.  What this means
using Jewish time is that he was in the grave for one day, two
nights, and possibly a couple of hours of one day.  Certainly this
is a problem for Jesus prediction.  There is absolutely no way we
are even able to have his death involve three days and three
nights --even using modern time measurements.   We then are led to
suspect that this error is another one of Matthew's little
mistakes, and that the gospel writer put false words into his
god's mouth.   And no matter who made the prediction, it is more
than unconvincing... it is counter-convincing.

Hearing &
Understanding:

     Jesus tool on a habit of speaking to his vast audiences in
parables-- stories in which a deeper meaning could be found, if
you were already one of the elect, those chosen to understand the
message of Jesus.  He reasons that those who can understand the
parables are the ones he wants.  If the people cannot understand
them, there is no need to bother with them, since they will not
accept the "plain" message any better.  Matthew says,

       [Mt 13.14-16]  With them [the audience] indeed in
       fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says, 

       "You will indeed hear but never understand; and you
       will indeed see, but never perceive.  Because this
       people's heart has grown dull, their ears are heavy of
       hearing, and they have shut their eyes so the they
       would not perceive with them, her with their ears, and
       understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal
       them."

The original Isaiah passages are part of his earlier works, his
call to the ministry.  This is in 740 BCE, when Israel is
flourishing, right before it falls under the authority of Assyria. 
Isaiah sees the good times ending, and also a vision from G'd,
calling him to bring reform to Israel and Judah.

       [Is 6.9-13]  And G'd said, "Go, and say to this
       people, `Hear and hear, but do not understand; see and
       see, but do not perceive.'   Make the heart of this
       people fat, make their ears heavy, and shut their
       eyes, so they will not see with their eyes, or hear
       with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and
       turn and be healed."  Then Isaiah said, "How long,
       lord?"  And he said, "Until the cities lie waste
       without inhabitant, and houses without men, and the
       land is utterly desolate, and the G'ds take men far
       away, and forsaken places are many in the land.  And
       though a tenth will remain in it, it will be burned
       again, like a terebinth or an oak whose stump still
       stands when the tree is felled." The holy seed is its
       stump.

Here we see that it is really G'd who causes the people of Israel
to stop listening to the prophet's warnings, but reaffirms the
promise made to Solomon's (and David's) seed/lineage.  If you read
the rest of Isaiah, you find that this is done to fulfil the plan
of G'd to use Israel as a servant, a light to the nations.  (Look
at Isaiah 42.18-25, 48.20, 49.3)
     We see that Matthew has cut-and-pasted just a little portion
of Isaiah's verse, to suit his own gospel needs.  More than that,
he has altered the words, to make it fit the people who didn't
understand Jesus's stories.  And, as we see, Isaiah's verses are
not prophecies, but rather commands from G'd to him, in the
present.   Once again, Matthew's prophecy falls flat on its face. 

     Matthew tries again to make Jesus's parables look like they
have the prophetic approval.

       [Mt 13.35]  ...he said nothing to them without a
       parable.  This was to fulfil what was spoken of by the
       prophet, "I will open my mouth to them in parables.  I
       will utter that which has been hidden since the
       foundation of the world."

Matthew really botches up here.  He attempts to quote not from a
prophet, but from the Psalms.

       [Ps 78.2-4]  I will open my mouth in parable.  I will
       utter dark sayings of old, things that we all have
       heard and known, things that our fathers have told us. 
       We will not hide them from their children, but tell to
       the coming generation the glorious deeds of the
       lord...

As was pointed out, the verses in the Psalms do not really come
from a prophet.  You might also want to know that earlier copies
of Matthew's gospel even inserted Isaiah's name as this prophet. 
Apparently, later scribes caught the error and tried to cover some
of it up.
     Perhaps the most significant part of this is that, once
again, Matthew has altered the Old Testament Scriptures.  As Jesus
has said earlier, he speaks in parables so that some will not
understand them.  The parables in the Psalms are not to be hidden. 
Further, they speak of things "known, that our fathers have told
us."  Jesus deals with things "hidden since the foundation of the
world."  Indeed Jesus dealt in a lot of secrecy and confusion. 
This is in direct opposition to the parables in the Psalms.  No
wonder Matthew had to rewrite them!   And still once again,
Matthew's artificial prophecies fall flat on their face.  But,
Christians rarely look at this.  Matthew's prophecies aren't the
only things about Christianity that are beginning to look bad.

Excuses of
Little Faith:

       In Mt. 17.14-21, we see that the disciples are able to go
around casting out demons, except in one case.  Not knowing what
epilepsy was, the people thought those with the disease were
possesed with demons.  It is no wonder that the disciples were
unable to "dispossess" the epileptic.  But, Jesus, perhaps no more
enlightened than they, is reported to have rebuked them, saying
they didn't have enough faith.   This seems strange.  Why was this
demon special?  It seems that either a true believer has faith or
he does not.  Apparently, enough faith will allow someone to move
mountains.  Of course, you will find no one, these days that can
move real mountains.  No one parts seas.  The only miracles the
Charismatics can speak of are those rumoured to happen on trips to
Mexico or some faraway place.  Major miracles are making some old
woman's arthritis feel better on Sunday morning T.V.

       And the gods, including Jesus, are always shrouded in
ancient lore and writings, protected from the skeptics in their
sacred pasts.  They are either dead, sleeping, or hiding in
heaven, with people rumouring about their imminent return and
their great miracles of days long gone.  Yet, life goes on.  

     Tales of mystics, stories of miracles-- all in a distant time
or a distant place.  Gods used to reveal themselves to men in the
old days, Jehovah too.  But, now they are silent.  All the
theologians give are various excuses as to why we don't get to see
God anymore.

       We're too lazy; we're not zealous enough; we're
       sinful; it's just his "plan"; we put too many of our
       own demands on G'd's appearance; if we had the right
       faith, if we  were willing to meet G'd on his terms...

     Yet, even the most pious of men have not seen G'd.  You, dear
reader, have not seen G'd.  Not literally, you know that to be
true. (I know that's presumptuous and bold.  But, searching your
heart, you know what I mean.)  All that we've seen religions do is
make people feel good and content about not seeing G'd.  They say
our little faith does not merit us to see G'd.  Sometimes, they
say, "See the love in these people you worship with... see the
lives of people change... that is seeing G'd."   Thus people get
lulled to sleep, satisfied with turning G'd into the everyday
sights.   But, that is not seeing G'd as I am speaking of... it is
not seeing G'd the way people used to see.  
      What we see in the world that is good, is the compassion of
human hearts, the love given and taken by men and women, the
forgiveness practised by Christian & Atheist alike, beauty created
by the mind of man.  These are the things that are done; these are
what we see.  But, it is said this is so only because everybody
has little faith.

Jesus Rides on
an Ass:

       Shortly after accepting the role of the Jewish messiah
king, Jesus requests a donkey be brought in for him to ride into
Jerusalem.  

       [Mt 21.5]  This took place to fulfil what was spoken
       by the prophet, saying,

       Tell the daughter of Zion, "Behold, your king is
       coming to you, humble, mounted on an ass, and on a
       ass-colt."

Of course, the passage quoted from Zechariah 9.9 reads a little
differently.

       Lo, your king comes to you; he is triumphant and
       victorious, humble, and riding on an ass, on an ass-
       colt... he will command peace to the nations.

There isn't all that much difference here, except that Zechariah
only involves one animal  --an ass-colt--  while Matthew reads the
poetic wording slightly differently.  Thus, he has Jesus call for
both a colt and an adult ass.  From Matthew's version, we get a
comical picture of the divine Christ sweating it to straddle two
donkeys.  This could inevitably lead to a theological,
proctological dilemma!   We find that in the account written
earlier by St. Mark, only the colt was called for and brought to
Jesus.  This indeed fits the verses of Zechariah properly, and
shows us that in Matthew attempt to use prophetic verses, he has
bungled.  Now, excluding many respectable Christians I have met, I
have noticed that while Christ is thought to have ridden on asses,
the situation is often reversed nowadays...

       Then, entering the Jerusalem temple, the priests were
angered at people and youngsters calling Jesus the messiah.  But,
Jesus replied as we might expect Matthew to have done,

       [Mt 21.16]  Haven't you read?  `Out of the mouth of
       babes and sucklings thou has brought perfect praise.'

It is more likely that Matthew made this response up since Jesus
was never one to point out such little "prophetic" things AND
since, as we might expect, the quote is in error, which seems to
fit Matthew's track record quite well.  We might ask Jesus or
Matthew, "Haven't you read?" for the source reads,

       [Psalms 8.1-2]  O YaHWeH our lord, how majestic is
       your name in the whole world!   You, whose glory is
       chanted above the heavens by babes and infants, you
       have founded a bulwark against your foes to still the
       enemy and the avenger.

The passages hardly need comment.  There is no "perfect praise"
spoken of in the psalm, and what praise is there is given to G'd,
not his messiah king, and not Jesus.  As mentioned, it seems to be
just one more case of Matthew's pen making up convenient prophetic
scripture.

YHVH said to 
my lord...:

      Jesus is said to have asked from whom the promised Jewish
messiah-king is to be descended.  The Jews agree-- it is king
David.  But, then Jesus counters by quoting Psalms 110,

       "The LORD said to my Lord, sit at my right hand, until
       I put your enemies under your feet."

Taken at face value, Jesus is denying the necessity of Davidic
descent.  One assumes he is in opposition to their answer.  Of
course, the Christian answer is that he agrees, but is trying to
make some hidden point, to reveal some mystery about the divine
nature of the messiah-king.  It's tempting to believe this, if one
is a Christian and not interested in matters of investigation. 
But, there are problems.
       In Jesus's time, the psalm was thought to be about the
messiah.  And, it is easy to see why David might refer to the
messiah as his superior.  We need only look at the scriptures
about the messiah to see that he is expected to be a great king,
bringing the Jews to times even better than those under David's
rule.  Of course, the Jews listening had no good answer, and the
passage could indeed refer to a divine messiah, such as the
Christians worship.  The problem lies in the meaning of this
psalm, an error that apparently several Jews of Jesus's time had
also made.  One must remember that there were various factions
among the Jews, often as a result of different expectations of the
messiah-king.  Jesus was apparently one of these adventists, like
his audience, who thought the messiah's advent was imminent, and
who interpreted Psalms 110, among others, as being messianic.
What is the problem, then?  Psalm 110 literally reads,

       YHVH's utterance to my lord:
	"Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your
       footstool."

       YHVH sends forth your mighty scepter from Zion.  Rule
       in the midst of your foes!  Your people will offer
       themselves freely on the day you lead your host on the
       holy mountains.  

       "You are a priest of the order of Melchizedek
       forever."

The word "lord" is often mistakenly capitalised by Christian
bibles to denote divinity in this lord.  But, in the Hebrew, the
word is "adoni," and no capitalisation exists.  Adoni simply means
"lord," a generic term as we would use it.  It is used often in
the scriptures to refer to kings and to G'd.  It is merely an
address of respect.  
      There is nothing in the text itself to imply that the word
refers either to divinity or to the messiah-king.  That this is
supposed to be written by David is not certain.  The title of the
psalm translates to either "a psalm of David," or "a psalm about
David."  It seems fitting to assume it to be written by a court
poet, about David's covenant and endorsement from G'd.  If the
psalm had been written by David, it is unlikely that he would be
talking about the messiah.  The idea of a perfect king, descended
from David, was not present in David's age.  We have extensive
tales of David's doings and sayings-- none of which include any
praises of a messiah.
     Many of the psalms show evidence of being written long after
David was dead, in times of the exile when G'd had put his show of
favour for David's kingdom on hold.  
     The description in the psalm fit David very well.  David was
promised by G'd a rise to power, victory over his enemies,
successful judgement among the nations he conquered.  He achieved
the priesthood common to Melchizedek in being a righteous king,
enabled to bless the people.   It all fits.
      We do not have to blame this problem on Matthew alone,
though.  Here, there is not artificial prophecy alluded to, though
his use of the scripture is rather questionable.  Still, this
event is common to the other gospels too.  So, we let Matthew off
a little more easily this time.  It is interesting to note,
though, how Matthew dresses up the event.  The earlier gospel of
Mark tells the tale with Jesus simply speaking to a crowd. 
Matthew has the Pharisees, who became the religious competition of
an infant Christianity, be the target of Jesus's question.  As we
might expect, Matthew writes that the event ends up by
embarrassing the Pharisees.  Such power is the pen.

Moses & Jesus,
Had it Together
All Along...:

       We leave the gospel story of Matthew momentarily to see a
pseudo-prophecy in John's gospel.  The gospel story of John
deserves special treatment, because it seems to be so far removed
from the real events of Jesus's career as told by even Matthew. 
But, for the moment, we will just look at one verse.  The early
church leaders founded a religion on the Jewish hopes of a messiah
king, and on an artificial extension of the original promises made
by G'd.  When constructing the history of Abraham, Moses wrote of
a promise of land and nationhood to the Jewish people.  While this
was accomplished eventually, under the rule of king David, the
Christians who came along later decided that they would claim the
fulfillment of the promise.  But, to do so, they expanded on the
promise, preaching about a heavenly kingdom.

       [John 8.56] (J.C. speaking) Your father, Abraham,
       rejoiced to see My day.  He say it and was glad.

It would be nice to tie in approval for Jesus from Abraham, but,
Abraham knew nothing of Jesus or a messiah, or anything Christian. 
I have tried, and failed to find any event in the Old Testament
which corresponds to John's little prophecy.  It is par for the
course to see St. John making up Old Testament backings, just like
his forerunner Matthew.  Many Christians know that their faith has
many of its foundations in such fraud, and it is surprising they
still cling to it.

The Potter's
Field:

      We are told that Jesus was betrayed while in Jerusalem by
one of his followers, Judas Iscariot.   Matthew writes,

       [Mt 27.5-10]  And throwing down the pieces of silver
       in the temple, [Judas] departed... But, the chief
       priests, taking the silver, said, "It isn't lawful for
       us to put it in the treasury, since it is blood
       money."  So they... bought a potter's field with it to
       bury strangers in... Then was fulfilled what was
       spoken by the prophet Jeremiah,

       "And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price
       of him on whom a price had been set by some of the
       sons of Israel, and they gave them for the potter's
       field, as the lord directed me."

This prophecy is an utterly gross bastardisation of Old Testament
Scripture.  First, Matthew has made a mistake regarding the name
of the prophet.  It is Zechariah who utters the verses which
Matthew makes use of.

       [Zech. 11.12-13]  ...And they weighed out my wages,
       thirty shekels of silver.  Then YHVH said to me, "Cast
       them to the treasury," --the lordly price at which I
       was paid off by them.  So I took the thirty shekels of
       silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of
       YHVH.

First of all, the verses of Zechariah do not deal with a betrayer
of the messiah, or of G'd.  The deal with a shepherd, most likely
a priest, chosen to serve a function of presiding over the people
shortly before G'd would send Judah and Israel into conflict with
one another.  The word, "treasury," had been replaced by the King
James Scholars with "to the potter," precisely because this made
Matthew's quote fit better.  But, this is a blatant error.  The
correct translation of the Hebrew is indeed "treasury," which also
makes perfect sense in Zechariah's context, whereas "potter's
field" is totally unrelated.  Whether the mistranslation was
intentional or not seems to be beyond speculation.  However, given
Matthew's track record, one finds it hard to resist the notion of
intentional dishonesty.
      Of course, Matthew would have ample reason for altering the
text.  The thirty pieces of silver match Judas's situation, and if
as most Christians seem to be, the reader is willing to disregard
the contextual incongruity, Matthew might have another prophecy to
toss around.  However, the correct translation of Zechariah
directly contradicts the situation with Judas and the high
priests.  The high priests would not put the money in the
treasury.  The worthless shepherd of Zechariah does exactly the
opposite!  Of course, to the average Thursday-Night Bible student,
the "prophecy" as presented by Matthew would be taken at New
Testament face value.  To those, Matthew's work is convincing
enough.

Wine, Vinegar,
& Casting Lots:

      Then, Jesus is led away to be crucified.

       [Mt 27.34-35]  ...they gave him vinegar to drink,
       mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not
       drink it.  And, when they had crucified him, they
       divided his garments among them by casting lots: that
       it might be fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet,

       "They parted my garments among them, and upon my
       vesture did they cast lots."

First of all, the vinegar offered to Jesus is actually common sour
wine, of the type that Roman soldiers drank regularly.  We find
that right before Jesus dies, the soldiers themselves give him
some to drink --not polluted with gall.

       [Jn 19.28-30]  Jesus... said, "I thirst."  A bowl of
       vinegar stood there, so they put a sponge full of the
       vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth.  When he
       had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished;"

But, Matthew seems to be drawing on, not a passage from the
prophets, but one from the Psalms.

       [Ps 69.20-28]  I looked for pity, but there was none;
       and for comforters, but I found none.  They gave me
       poison for food (lit. they put gall in my meat), and
       for my thirst, they gave me vinegar to drink...  Add
       to them punishment upon punishment, may they have no
       acquittal from thee.  Let them be blotted out of the
       Book of the Living.

Of course, the sour wine offered to Jesus is done at his request
of drink.  This does indeed seem to be a show of pity.  The psalm
quoted is about David and his political and military enemies.  It
is not about the messiah or Jesus.  It is then not surprising that
we run into further problem when we see that the "Jesus" in the
psalm asks G'd for the damnation of the "crucifiers," whereas the
Jesus of the gospels says,

       [Lk 23.34]  Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, the
       don't know what they do!"

Further, Matthew misses with his attempt to create prophecy by
having gall (a bitter substance) put into Jesus's drink, not his
meat, as the psalm stipulates.

       With the "prophecy" of the vinegar faulty, we naturally
ask, "What of the casting of lots?"  This brings up the 22nd
Psalm, which deserves discussion all by itself.  Suffice it now to
say that the fact that Jesus's clothes were divided as told is no
great thing.  It turns out that this happened often to any felon
in those days.  As we will soon see, it is perhaps the least
erroneous passage of the psalm when applied to Jesus.  It does
indeed bring up the interesting question as to the quality of
Jesus's clothes.  For a man so removed from worldly possessions,
his ownership of clothes worthy of casting lots raises some
suspicions.

The 22nd Psalm:

      This psalm is attributed to David, as a lament of his
condition under the attack of his enemies.  It becomes a song of
praise to YHVH and of hope.  Taken out of context, parts of it
seem to fit the plight of Jesus at the crucifixion quite well.  We
will examine the primary passages.

       Verse 1-2:  My god, my god! why have you forsaken me?! 
       Why are you so far from helping me, far from the words
       of my groaning?  Oh, my god, I cry by day, but you
       don't answer, and by night, but find no rest.

Jesus is said to have cried the first sentence while on the cross. 
This suggests that the whole psalm is really about Jesus, rather
than king David.  Of course, the rest of the first stanza does not
fit as nicely to Jesus or his execution.  Jesus is not pictured as
complaining about the whole ordeal, he is supposed to be like "the
lamb led mute before its shearers."  Indeed, Jesus doesn't do much
groaning, even when on the cross.  He certainly does not cry by
both day and night on the cross.

       6-8:  But, I am a worm, and no man-- scorned by men... 
       All who see me mock at me.  They make faces and wag
       their heads;  "He committed his cause to YHVH.  So let
       him deliver him... for he delights in him."

This seems to fit Jesus's execution pretty well, with the
exception of the Holy messiah being called a worm.

       12-13:  Many bulls encompass me... they open their
       mouths widely at me like a ravening and roaring lion.

       16-18:  Yea, dogs are round about me, a company of
       evildoers encir-cle me, they have pierced my hands and
       feet.  I can see all my bones... They divide my
       garments among them, and cast lost for my raiment.

       19-21:  But you, YHVH, be not far away!  ...Deliver my
       soul from the sword, my life from the power of the
       dog!  Save me from the mouth of the lion, and my
       afflicted soul from the horns of the wild bull!

It would seem quite convincing, and I'm sure the early Christian
fathers who wrote of this prophecy thought so too.  Unfortunately,
this prophecy has a fatal flaw.  The words "have pierced" really
do not exist in the psalm.  The correct Hebrew translation is,

       16:  Yea, dogs are round about me, a company of
       evildoers encircles me, like the lion, they are at my
       hands and feet...

In Hebrew the phrase "like the lion" and a very rare verb form
which can mean "pierced" differ by one phonetic character.  The
word in the Hebrew text is literally, "like the lion" (ka'ari),
which makes sense in the context, and even further fits the animal
imagery employed by the psalm writer.  It is convenience that
would urge a Christian to change the word to "ka'aru."   But, to
add the needed (yet artificial) weight to the "prophecy" this is
just what the Christian translators have chosen to do.  While the
correct translation does not eliminate the psalm from referring to
Jesus, its absence does not say much for the honesty of the
translators.

       Apart from the erroneous verse 16, the psalm does not lend
itself to Jesus so easily.  Verse 20 speaks of the sufferer being
saved from a sword rather than a cross.  This naturally fits the
psalm's true subject, king David.  As a side note, we now know
that crucifixions did not pierce the hands, the palms, but rather
the forearms.  This doesn't say much in favour of the traditional
thought of a resurrected Jesus showing his disciples the scars on
his palms.  But then, facts aren't bound by our religious beliefs.

      Matthew escapes culpability this time, as he does not
attempt to draw many direct links between this psalm and his lord
Jesus.  But the psalm, like many others, was on the minds of all
the gospel writers when they compiled the stories and
interpretations of Jesus's life and death.  How much these
scriptures may have contributed to what actually got written down
is a question that has serious repercussions for Christian
theology.  It is easy to see, for those who are not faithful
fundamentalists, how some of the events in the New Testament might
have been "enhanced" by scribes such as the eager Matthew.  But,
it does less to speculate than to simply investigate scriptural
matters and prophetic claims.  So far, this has not said good
things for St. Matthew.

The reference to the piercing looks a lot like Jesus's
crucifixion.  John's gospel recount, written about 70 years after
the fact, tells us at Jesus's execution,

       [Jn 19.34,37]  But one of the soldiers pierced his
       side with a spear, and out came blood and water...
       these things took place that Scripture be fulfilled...
       "The will look on him whom they've pierced."

Of course, this is built on a passage taken blatantly out of
context.   Prophet Zechariah tells us how much of the nation of
Israel will split off from Jerusalem and Judah and go to war with
them.

       [Zc 12.7-10]  And YHVH will give victory to Judah...
       And on that day, I will seek to destroy the nations
       that come against Jerusalem (in Judah).  And I will
       pour a spirit of compassion and supplication... on
       Jerusalem so that when they look on him who they have
       pierced, they will mourn, and weep bitterly over him
       like you weep over a firstborn child.

John's attempt to make up prophecy is perhaps weaker that
Matthew's attempts.  Matthew, at least, usually excontexts more
than just one passage.  John's errors are grossly obvious and
blatant here.  It does not speak well for any of the gospel
writers, as it helps to show how the prophetic aspects of their
religion were founded.

Reckoned with
Transgressors:

       After his arrest, Jesus is quickly executed for claiming
the Jewish kingship, messiahship.   According to one version of
the gospel tale, Jesus gets executed along with two thieves.

       [Mk 15.27]  And with him they crucified two robbers,
       one on his right, one on his left.  And so the
       scripture was fulfilled which says,

       "He was reckoned with the transgressors."

Here, Mark is trying to link Jesus to a passage in Isaiah 53,
about the servant nation of Israel.  The passage is not about the
messiah, for if one reads the whole chapter of Isaiah 53, and its
surrounding chapters, one sees that the servant is a nation.  The
verses are also about what this servant has gone through in the
past, not a prediction of what is to come, in any event.  The
servant is thought of as a criminal.  This also happens to fit the
description of Jesus.  Had the passage really been about the
messiah, it still is not at all clear why executing Jesus between
two thieves would fulfill the "prophecy" in Isaiah.  Jesus would
more fittingly fulfill it with his whole ministry.  He was
considered a blasphemer and troublemaker all throughout his
career.   Locking onto a single event is a rather poor way to
steal prophecy, at least in this case, as we see that Mark could
have had made a better analogy with general comparisons.

       Mark goes on to tell us how "those who were crucified with
[Jesus] also reviled him." [15.32]  This is to be expected from a
couple of robbers.  Of course in his later recount, St. Luke
decides to change some things.  Luke tells us,

       [Lk 23.39-43]  And one of the criminals who was hanged
       with him railed, "Aren't you the messiah?! Save
       yourself, and us!"

This certainly fits with Mark's recount, which tells how the
people who crucified Jesus said, "Save yourself!" and that the
robbers did the same.  But then Luke goes on,

       But the other [criminal] rebuked [the first] saying,
       "Don't you fear G'd, since you are under the same
       sentence of condemnation?  And we, indeed justly so,
       for we are receiving the due reward for our deeds. 
       But, this man has done nothing wrong. And he said,
       "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom." 
       And Jesus answered, "Verily I say to you, today you
       will be with me in paradise."

Now, this little dialogue seems highly contrived.  It stretches
the imagination a bit to see this picture of one ruffian rebuking
his fellow criminal with such eloquent speech.  We have a rather
strange picture of a criminal lamenting over the goodness of his
punishment and the justness of his suffering.   Such a man,
apparently noble and of principle, doesn't seem likely to have
been a robber.  We wonder at the amount of theatrics created by
Luke.  Of course, Luke's recount also disagrees with Mark's.  
Luke has only one criminal revile Jesus, not both.  It is easy
enough to discount the discrepancy because the account was made
up, but those who wish to believe it is all part of the error free
words of G'd do not have this avenue open.  This is yet another
example of a writer trying to take an Old Testament passage and
expand it and reinterpret it to suit his theology.  In this case,
the embroidery creates some embarrassing problems, as we have
seen.

The End of the
World--
       Mt. 24:

       Now comes perhaps one of the most extraordinary and
embarrassing passages in the New Testament.  It is found in all
three of the synoptic gospel stories, and casts some of the most
unfavourable doubt on the whole theory of Christianity.  Jesus
mentions the destruction of the Jewish temples and buildings, and
his disciples ask him about this, and about the end of the world
which he has been warning about.

       The disciples: Tell us, when will this [the temple's
       destruction] be, and what will be the sign of your
       coming, and of the close of the age?

       Jesus: Take care that no one leads you astray, for
       many will come in my name, saying, "I am the christ."  
       ...you will hear of wars and rumours of wars... for
       this must take place, but the end is not yet.   For,
       nation will rise against nation... all this is but the
       beginning of the birthpangs.
             They will deliver you up... put you to death,
       and false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
       ...But he who endures to the end will be saved.  This
       gospel will be preached throughout the whole world, a
       testimony to the nations, and then the end will come.
             So, when you see the desolation spoken of by the
       prophet Daniel, ...let those who are in Judea flee to
       the mountains.

             Immediately after the tribulation of those days,
       the sun will be darkened... the stars will fall from
       heaven... then will appear the sign of the Son of Man
       in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
       and see the Son of Man coming... and he will send out
       his angels... and gather his elect...
             Learn the lesson of the fig tree: as soon as its
       branch becomes tender and puts forth leaves, you know
       that summer is near.  So also, when you see all these
       things, you will know that He is near, at the very
       gate.  Truly I say to you, this generation will not
       pass away until all these things take place...
             But, of the day and hour, no one knows; not the
       angels, not the Son, but only the Father... Therefore,
       you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming
       at an hour you do not expect.

From this, it is clear that Jesus thought the world would in
within the lifetimes of at least some of his disciples.  He tells
them that although he doesn't know the exact day or hour, that it
will come, and thus they must be ready.  Theologians have wet
their pants in panic to find some way out of this Holy Error. 
But, unfortunately, Jesus made himself to explicit.  He told his
disciples that their generation would still be around at the End,
and that they in particular should prepare for it, prepare to be
swept away.
      There have been some who resorted to removing the inerrant
nature of the Bible, and said that the phrase, "this generation
shall not pass away..." really means "this race of people will not
pass away..."  Of course, the word for generation is used many
times to refer to exactly that, the generation of the disciples. 
It is an interesting notion that when God decided to learn Greek,
he didn't learn it well enough to make himself clear.  But. it is
quite obvious from the rest of the dialogue that the disciples (at
least some of them) are supposed to live to the End of the World. 
The charge of mistranslation is completely blown away by looking
at the Apostles' responses.  It becomes abundantly clear from
Rev. 22.7, 1 Peter 4.7, 1 John 2.18, and Rev. 22.20, that Jesus
meant exactly what he said.  The End was very near.

       For 2,000 years, Christians have rationalised this 24th
chapter of Matthew, or ignored its meaning altogether.  For 2,000
years, they have waited for their executed leader to come back,
hearing of wars, and rumours of wars, sure that He is coming soon. 
Surely He must be.  All we must do is wait.  Can you imagine how
tired He must be, sitting around up there, being holy, waiting for
just the right moment to spring?

       So, shortly after his crucifixion, Jesus of Nazareth,
(Joshua-ben-Joseph), died.   It is said that after three days, or
three days and three nights, or three periods of time, or three
eternal seconds --or three of whatever they can decide makes for
less trouble-- he was seen again, resurrected, glowing with divine
radiance.  Then the Saviour decided it wasn't in the best
interests of his new religion to stick around, and therefore
disappeared from sight into heaven.  So the story goes, anyway. 
As has been seen, there were many things attributed to Jesus when
people got around to writing the gospel stories down.  To them,
Jesus was the fulfiller of all prophecy and scripture.  We have
seen, though, that this matter is quite shaky.  But, throughout
Church history, Christians have held fast to faith, in simple
belief.  What doctrinal objections could not be solved with
argumentation or brute force, faith and forgetfulness kept away
from question.  To question and investigate has never been the
easiest way to treat matters.  Thus for 2,000 years, the
prophecies cited in the New Testament have gone on largely
accepted.  Things may well continue that way for some time. 
Pausing a moment to consider the way the doctrines of Christianity
have been accepted and used (properly or improperly) to support
wars and persecution, I suppose there is one prophecy of which
Christianity can securely keep hold.

Could be the (folk?) song "Clementine".  If memory serves, part of it goes:

   In a cavern, by a canyon,
   and his daughter, Clementine.

Anyone who watched Huckleberry Hound can sing you the chorus :-) 
Is there a story/real person behind the song?

Hello everyone,

	I was hoping someone could help me out.  I'm writing a program
	for my astronautics class for assent of the shuttle into a low
	orbit.  There are two things I'd like to know, First, how much 
	time elapses between launch and the pitch over. Second, what is
	the cross-sectional area of the shuttle, srb's, and ext. tank.

	Thanks for any information, post or e-mail.

First of all as far as I know, only male homosexuality is explicitly
mentioned in the bibles, so you're off the hook there, I think. In
any event, there are *plenty* of people in many denominations who
do not consider a person's sexual identification of gay/lesbian/bisexual
as an "immoral lifestyle choice"

This is another misconception. You are not being told the whole story.

My former minister is a lesbian, and I know personally and
professionally several openly gay and lesbian ministers. I am
a Unitarian-Universalist and like most others in my denomination,
am pro-choice. You needn't go looking to the Unitarian Universalists
(which is a liberal religion) for acceptance of your sexual
identification and pro-choice views, however; there are many of us
who believe in spirituality AND freedom of conscience.

Good Luck on your journey!

No need to correct it, it stands as it is said.
 
You miss the point entirely. Things defined by contradictory language
do not exist. Though something existing might be meant, conclusions
drawn from the description are wrong, unless there is the possibility
to find the described, and draw conclusions from direct knowledge of
the described then. Another possibility is to drop the contradictory
part, but that implies that one can trust the concept as presented
and that one has not got to doubt the source of it as well.
 
Neither am I. But either things are directly sensed (which includes
some form of modelling, by the way) or they are used in modelling.
Using something contradictive in modelling is not approved of.
Wonder why?

Reply address: mark.prado@permanet.org

 > From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
 >
 > In article <1993Apr19.230236.18227@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>,
 > > |> AW&ST  had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration
 > confernce> |> May 7th  at Crystal City Virginia, under the
 > auspices of AIAA.
 >
 > Thanks for typing that in, Steven.
 >
 > I hope you decide to go, Pat.  The Net can use some eyes
 > and ears there...

I plan to go.  It's about 30 minutes away from my home.
I can report on some of it (from my perspective ...)
Anyone else on sci.space going to be there?  If so, send me
netmail.  Maybe we can plan to cross paths briefly...
I'll maintain a list of who's going.

mark.prado@permanet.org

Hi, I'm looking for the 3-D studio driver for the
	Oak card with 1 M of RAM.
	This would be GREATLY (and I mean that) appreciated

You're closer than you might imagine.   I certainly despised living
under the Soviet regime when it purported to organize society according
to what they fondly imagined to be the "objective" conclusions of
Marxist dialectic.

But I don't hate Physics so long as some clown doesn't start trying
to control my life on the assumption that we are all interchangeable
atoms, rather than individual human beings.

Leonard, I'll give you an example of this....

My father recently bought a business, the business price was 150,000 pounds
and my father approached the people in the community for help, he raised
60,000 pounds in interest free loans from friends and relatives and 
Muslims he knew, 50,000 had cash and the rest he got a business loan, after
paying off the Muslim lenders many of them helped him with further loans
to help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest, this
is an example of a Muslim community helping one another, why did they help
because of their common identity as Muslims. In turn my father has helped
with people buying houses to minimise the amount of intrest they pay 
and in some cases buy houses intrest free with the help of those more
fortunate in the community. 

The fact is Leonard it DOES work without a fluffy bunny in sight!
iThat is the beauty of Islam.

Mas

Yes, this is certainly one of the traditional ideas about the Mithraic
cult (although not the only one.)  It had many elements that seem
to have been borrowed by Catholicism (e.g. the Mass, communion, the
sharing of a sacred meal, consecration of bread and wine, etc.)

For quite an amusing novel that uses this same idea, check out:

The Covenant of the Flame
by David Morrell.

It has some quite interesting occult bits, and lots of killing.
I won't spoil it by revealing the ending, but I will say that it
is relevant to Mithraism.

Tammy, is this all explicitly stated in the bible, or do you assume
that you know that Ezekiel indirectly mentioned? It could have been
another metaphor, for instance Ezekiel was mad at his landlord, so he
talked about him when he wrote about the prince of Tyre.

Sorry, but my interpretation is more mundane, Ezekiel wrote about 
the prince of Tyre when we wrote about the prince of Tyre.
 
Cheers,
Kent

Looking at [1] we find that during Roman times "Tyre vied with Sidon
for first place in the intellectual life of the period"; that Tyre was
the seat of a Christian bishop, eventually with 14 dioceses under it;
that "the most magnificent church of its kind in all Phoenecia" was the
basilica built in Tyre ca. 314; that Tyre was well known for its
exports of glassware, wine, white marble, and dyed cloth; that Tyre,
along with other seaports, "provided outlets for South Arabian, Indian
and even Chinese trade"; that Tyre had to accomodate its growing
population by "following a perpendicular, rather than horizontal, line
of growth" (because it was running out of land to build on); that Tyre
established colonies of its own.  None of this sounds like a "small
fishing village" by any stretch of the imagination.

Centuries later, under the Abbasids, Tyre had "opulent and flourishing
bazaars" and buildings of 5-6 stories.  During this period, Tyre was
"noted for its export of sugar, beads, and, as of old, glassware."
During the Crusades, Tyre was the second-most flourishing city held
by Franks.  (There is a lot more, but I got tired of writing.)

In [2] we read the following description of modern Lebanon: "other
*major cities* in Lebanon include Tripoli, Sidon, Tyre, Baalbek and
Zahlah."  [my emphasis]  This source also discusses the impact of
the Lebanese Civil War, and the Israeli military actions (1978, 1982)
on the trading ports of Tyre and Sidon.  It notes that after Israel's
withdrawel in 1984, "Tyre appeared to enjoy a revival of its local
economy."

If Tyre is such an insignificant little fishing village at present,
why is it always called a city (or, above, a "major city")?  Why
does it show up on all the maps?   When population figures for cities
in Lebanon are given, why is Tyre always one of the cities on the
list (even if the list is only a dozen cities long)?

[1] Philip K. Hitti, _Lebanon in History: From the earliest times to
the present_, NY, St. Martins, 1967.  

[2] Federal Research Division, Library of Congress, _Lebanon: a
country study_, edited by Thomas Collelo, 1989.

A one-horse town?  Sounds like a lot of work for one horse.
(Anyway, Tyre is connected by roads to the mainland.  They
may even use cars these days. :-) 

The 1991 Encyclopedia Britannica says "Pop. (1982 est.) 23,000."  
Most other references give figures in the 14-17 thousand range.
(One atlas gives the population of Tyre as 60,000; the same
source give comparatively high figures for Sidon and Beirut, also,
so I doubt that it is a typo.  Perhaps these were figures for
the cities and their surrounding areas.)  I don't doubt that the
population of Tyre has fluctuated over the last few decades.  In
particular, the 1982 Israeli military action hurt Tyre quite a bit.   

I thought you were talking about times that Tyre was destroyed.
Don't most, if not all, of these apply not just to Tyre but to 
the other cities in the area?  Sidon, for example?  Can you make
a case for Tyre having been singled out?

They had a good deal of autonomy under the Seleucids. From [2]:
Tyre "receiv[ed] the rights [of autonomy] from Antiochus Ephiphanes
and from 125 BC onward enjoy[ed] complete autonomy. She started a
large series of coins, occasionally in gold ..."

The descriptions of Tyre under the Romans don't seem to fit
your characterization, either.  And under the Abbasids it seems
to have been allowed to flourish.  I still think you are stretching
when you try to describe Tyre as having been nothing but a small
fishing village.

A Christian apologist whose standards of scholarship are quite low.
He happens to quote the same source you quote (Nina Jidejian,
_Tyre through the Ages_, Beirut, Dar El-Mashreq Publishers, 1969).
The same sentence, in fact.  He defends the fulfillment of the
prophecy using the same argument you are using, an argument that
I haven't seen in print anywhere else, which is why I jumped to
the conclusion that you were quoting Josh.

(I tried to find the Jidejian book, but it isn't listed in Books
in Print.  Can you tell me more about it? Her descriptions are so
much at odds with everything else I've read; I'm curious to know why.)

As for SF and advertising in space. There is a romantic episode
in Mead's "The Big Ball of Wax" where the lovers are watching 
the constellation Pepsi Cola rising over the horizon and noting
the some 'stars' had slipped cause the Teamsters were on strike.

This was the inspiration for my article on orbiting a formation
of space mirrors published in Spaceflight in 1986. As the reviews
but is it aesthetically desirable?  These days the only aesthetics
that count are the ones you can count!

There are actually a few important things we can glean from this mess:
1)	When they start getting desperate for an answer to the question: "What's
it all about. Mr. Natural?", pinkboys will buy darn near *anything*, which
means:
2)	There's still plenty of $$$$ to be made in the False Jesus business
by enterprising SubGenii.  Just remember that:
3)	Once you've separated the pinks from their green, don't blow it all
on automatic weapons from Mexico.  Put it in a Swiss bank account.  Smile a
lot.  Have your flunkies hand out flowers in airports.  The Con will just
shrug you off as long as:
4)	You never, never, NEVER start to believe your own bulldada!  If
"David Koresh" hand't started swallowing his own "apocalypso now" crap, he'd
be working crossword puzzles in the Bahamas today instead of contributing to
the mulch layer in Waco.  This is because:
5)	When you start shooting at cops, they're likely to shoot back.  And 
most of 'em are better shots than you are.

	In short:
	- P.T. Barnum was right 
		and
	- Stupidity is self-correcting
Thus endeth the lesson.

	He:   Fifty dollars if I can't answer your question.

	She:  What is the Big Bang theory.

	He:   The Big Bang theory is a recipe for cookies.

	She:  Fifty dollars, please.

	He:   Hey, I didn't say the answers would make sense.

SSRT ROLLOUT

                Speech Delivered by Col. Simon P. Worden,
                     The Deputy for Technology, SDIO
                                    
                  Mcdonnell Douglas - Huntington Beach
                              April 3,1993

     Most of you, as am I, are "children of the 1960's."  We grew
up in an age of miracles -- Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles,
nuclear energy, computers, flights to the moon.  But these were
miracles of our parent's doing.  For a decade and more the pundits
have told us - "you've lost it!"  The "me" generation is only
living on the accomplishments of the past.

     You and I have even begun to believe the pessimists.  We
listen in awe as the past generation tells of its triumphs.  Living
history they are.  We are privileged to hear those who did it tell
of it.  A few weeks ago some of this very team listened in awe as
General Bernie Schriever told of his team's work - and yes struggle
- to build this nation's Intercontinental Ballistic Missile.

     What stories can we tell?  Blurry-eyed telescopes?  Thousand
dollar toilet seats?  Even our space launch vehicles hearken only
of that past great time.  They are and seem destined to remain Gen.
Schriever's ICBMs.  I find it hard to swell with pride that the
best new space-lifter idea is to refurbish old Minuteman and
Poseidon ballistic missiles.

     Well - The pessimists are wrong.  The legacy is continuing. 
This event is proof.  To our technological parents: We've listened
to your stories.  We've caught your enthusiasm and can-do spirit. 
And we've learned from your achievements - and your mistakes.  Let
me honor one of you who was part of that history and the impetus
behind this history - Max Hunter.  You are one of the greatest
engineers of the firts great age of space exploration.  Your
insight and discipline built the Thor ICBM - later incorporated
into today's most successful launch vehicle - The Delta.

     You told us in the 60's that a new form of launch vehicle - a
single stage reusable rocket - can and should be built.  You
advocated this idea tirelessly.  It was elegantly simple, as are
all great breakthroughs.  You showed us how to build it.  You
convinced us it could be done.  You are working by our side to weld
its components into place.  Most important - you reminded us of a
prime engineering principle - undoubtably one you learned from the
generation before you - the generation that built transcontinental
aviation in the 1920's and 30's - build a little and test a little
and Max, you passed all of this on  to people like Pat Ladner who
started this program for the SDI.

     Douglas Aircraft didn't start with a DC-10.  They didn't even
start with a DC-3.  Our grandfathers built a little, tested a
little - even sold a little and made a little money - before they
moved on to the next step.  They didn't take a decade or more
before putting the first "rubber on the road."  Max Hunter - you
didn't take ten years to build Thor, and by God we're not going to
take ten years to show that low cost, single stage, reusable
aerospace transportation is real.

     We ended the cold war in a few short years.  It took the  same
team here today but a few years to show through the Strategic
Defense Initiative that the cold war must end.  We - you and us -
launched a series of satellites - The Delta experiments - in about
a year apiece.  This, more than anything else signaled our
commitment to end the impasse between ourselves and the Soviet
Union.  Those who made the decisions on both sides have underscored
the importance of our work in bringing about a new international
relationship.

     But it is the same team which is now  putting in place the
framework for an aerospace expansion that is our legacy for the
next generation.  We will make space access routine and affordable.

     We built this magnificent flying machine in two years.  This
summer a true rocket ship will take off and land on earth for the
first time.  Then we can and surely will build in the next three
years a reusable sub-orbital rocket.  It will allow us to use space
rapidly, affordably, and efficiently as no other nation can.  And
yes - we'll make a little money off it too!

     Then - and only then - we'll spend another three years to
build a fully reusable single stage to orbit system.  The DC-3 of
space will be a reality!  We may even be able to use some of the
rocket propulsion breakthroughs of our former cold war adversaries. 
What a wonderful irony if this SDI product and Russian efforts to
counter SDI merge to power mankind's next step to the stars!

     To be sure, we must guard against the temptations to leap to
the final answer.  Robert Goddard's first rockets weren't Saturn
V's!  If we succumb  to the temptation to ask  for just a few extra
dollars and a few more years to jump immediately to a full orbital
system - we will fail.  Max Hunter and his colleagues showed the
way.  Three years and a cloud of dust - in our case rocket
exhausts.  There is no short-cut.  If we expect to reshape the
world again - we must do it one brick at a time.  Minds on tasks at
hand!

Hi Folks,

   Does anyone have a copy of Playmation they'd be willing to sell me.  I'd 
love to try it out, but not for the retail $$$.  If you have moved onto 
something bigger (3DS) or better (Imagine), I'd love to buy your table scraps.

   If noone is selling, can anyone recommend a place to buy Playmation 
mail-order for cheap?  

   Thanks in advance,

   Mark

-- 

ames.arc.nasa.gov not sure what subdirectory thou..

==

From: "Phil G. Fraering" <pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu>

Right, the Profiting Caste is blessed by God, and may 
 freely blare its presence in the evening twilight ..

LEWB>> Lets add to those percentages 13-15% for the Orphaic docterians
brought LEWB>>to the group by Paul/Saul who was a high ranking initiate. On
the LEWB>>development of Orphaic Mysteries, see Jane Harrisons .Prolegomena
to the LEWB>>study of Greek religion. Cambridge U Press 1922. and you can
easly draw LEWB>>your own conclusions.
 
josh> perhaps you can quote just a bit of her argument?

We have no way to know that the cultists burned the house; it could have been
the BATF and FBI.  We only have the government's word for it, after all, and
people who started it by a no-knock search with concussion grenades are hardly
disinterested observers.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Hello
	HELP!!! please
		I am a student of turbo c++ and graphics programming
	and I am having some problems finding algorithms and code
	to teach me how to do some stuff..

	1) Where is there a book or code that will teach me how
	to read and write pcx,dbf,and gif files?

	2) How do I access the extra ram on my paradise video board
	so I can do paging in the higher vga modes ie: 320x200x256
	800x600x256
	3) anybody got a line on a good book to help answer these question?

Thanks very much !

send reply's to : Palm@snycanva.bitnet

Don't be so sure.  Look what happened to Japanese citizens in the US during
World War II.  If you're prepared to say "Let's round these people up and
stick them in a concentration camp without trial", it's only a short step to
gassing them without trial.  After all, it seems that the Nazis originally
only intended to imprison the Jews; the Final Solution was dreamt up partly
because they couldn't afford to run the camps because of the devastation
caused by Goering's Total War.  Those who weren't gassed generally died of
malnutrition or disease.

A few days back someone posted info on a gopher site where you could
search for medical graphics, etc.  Could someone please repost or mail me
a copy?  I'd greatly appreciate it.  Thanks!

Mark

Humans have "gone somewhat beyond" what, exactly?    In one thread
you're telling us that natural morality is what animals do to
survive, and in this thread you are claiming that an omniscient
being can "definitely" say what is right and what is wrong.   So
what does this omniscient being use for a criterion?   The long-
term survival of the human species, or what?

How does omniscient map into "definitely" being able to assign
"right" and "wrong" to actions?

Well, your "original premises" have a habit of changing over time,
so perhaps you'd like to review it for us, and tell us what the
difference is between an omniscient being be able to assign "right"
and "wrong" to actions, and telling us the result, is. 

I'm talking about the morality introduced by you, which was going to
be implemented by this omniscient being that can "definitely" assign
"right" and "wrong" to actions.

You tell us what type of morality that is.

STS 56     
1 22621U 93 23  A 93105.06179397  .00044513  00000-0  12649-3 0   230
2 22621  57.0022 147.2850 0004246 288.7332  38.0941 15.92991629  1084
1993 023B  

Hi!  I am in immediate need for details of various graphics compression
techniques.  So if you know where I could obtain descriptions of algo-
rithms or public-domain source codes for such formats as JPEG, GIF, and
fractals, I would be immensely grateful if you could share the info with
me.  This is for a project I am contemplating of doing.

Thanks in advance.  Please reply via e-mail if possible.

Guess the subject says it all.
  I would like references to any introductory material on Image
  Databases.
  Please send any pointers to mini@point.cs.uwm.edu

  Thanx in advance!
   
Would the sub-orbital version be suitable as-is (or "as-will-be") for use
as a reuseable sounding rocket?

Thank Ghod! I had thought that Spacelifter would definitely be the
bastard Son of NLS.

(And just as a reminder:)

So, we should ban the ammunition?  Why not get rid of the guns?

It is worse than others?  The National Anthem?  Should it be changed too?
God Bless America?  The list goes on...

Then you'd be no better than the people you despise.

Oh?

An endorsement, or an acknowledgement?  I think gods are things that people
are proud of, but I don't think the motto encourages belief.

Is it?

[...]

Would you approve of such a motto?

And removing the tool will solve the problem?

Or will it increase the problem?

Actually, they are legal! I not familiar with the ad you are speaking of
but knowing Popular Science it is probably on the fringe.  However, you
may be speaking of "Public Missle, Inc.", which is a legitimate company
that has been around for a while.

Due to advances in composite fuels, engines are now available for model
rockets using similar composites to SRB fuel, roughly 3 times more 
powerful than black powder motors.  They are even available in a reloadable
form, i.e. aluminum casing, end casings, o-rings (!).  The engines range
from D all the way to M in common manufacture, N and O I've heard of
used at special occasions.

To be a model rocket, however, the rocket can't contain any metal 
structural parts, amongst other requirements.  I've never heard of a
model rocket doing 50,000.  I have heard of > 20,000 foot flights.
These require FAA waivers (of course!).  There are a few large national
launches (LDRS, FireBALLS), at which you can see many > K sized engine
flights.  Actually, using a > G engine constitutes the area of "High
Power Rocketry", which is seperate from normal model rocketry.  Purchase
of engines like I have been describing require membership in the National
Association of Rocketry, the Tripoli Rocketry Assoc., or you have to
be part of an educational institute or company involved in rocketry.

Amatuer rocketry is another area.  I'm not really familiar with this,
but it is an area where metal parts are allowed, along with liquid fuels
and what not.  I don't know what kind of regulations are involved, but
I'm sure they are numerous.

who: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
what: <kmr4.1426.733987668@po.cwru.edu>
with: rush@leland.Stanford.EDU 
what: <1993Apr5.050524.9361@leland.Stanford.EDU>
 
KR> "Sadly yes. Don't loose any sleep over Old 'Zlumber. Just
KR> have some fun with him, but he is basically harmless. 
KR> At least, if you don't work in NY city."
 
I don't find it hard to believe that "Ole 'Zlumber" really believes
the hate and ignorant prattle he writes. The frightening thought is,
there are people even worse than he! To say that feminism equals
"superiority" over men is laughable as long as he doesn't then proceed
to pick up a rifle and start to shoot women as a preemptive strike---
aka the Canada slaughter that occured a few years ago. But then, men
killing women is nothing new. Islamic Fundamentalists just have a
"better" excuse (Qu'ran).
 
    from the Vancouver Sun, Thursday, October 4, 1990
    by John Davidson, Canadian Press
 
    MONTREAL-- Perhaps it's the letter to the five-year old
    daughter that shocks the most.
 
    "I hope one day you will be old enough to understand what
    happened to your parents," wrote Patrick Prevost. "I loved
    your mother with a passion that went as far as hatred."
 
    Police found the piece of paper near Prevost's body in his
    apartment in northeast Montreal.
 
    They say the 39-year-old mechanic committed suicide after
    killing his wife, Jocelyne Parent, 31.
 
    The couple had been separated for a month and the woman had
    gone to his apartment to talk about getting some more money
    for food. A violent quarrel broke out and Prevost attacked
    his wife with a kitchen knife, cutting her throat, police said.
 
    She was only the latest of 13 women slain by a husband or
    lover in Quebec in the last five weeks.
 
    Five children have also been slain as a result of the same
    domestic "battles."
 
    Last year in Quebec alone, 29 [women] were slain by their
    husbands. That was more than one-third of such cases across
    Canada, according to statistics from the Canadian Centre for
    Justice. [rest of article ommited]
 
Then to say that women are somehow "better" or "should" be the
one to "stay home" and raise a child is also laughable. Women
have traditionally done hard labor to support a family, often 
more than men in many cultures, throughout history. Seems to me
it takes at least two adults to raise a child, and that BOTH should
stay home to do so!

Gregg, so would you consider that Rushdie would now be left alone,
and he could have a normal life? In other words, does Islam support
the notion of forgiving?

Cheers,
Kent

I think if there is to be a prize and such.. There should be "classes"
such as the following:

Large Corp.
Small Corp/Company (based on reported earnings?)
Large Government (GNP and such)
Small Governemtn (or political clout or GNP?)
Large Organization (Planetary Society? and such?)
Small Organization (Alot of small orgs..)

The organization things would probably have to be non-profit or liek ??

Of course this means the prize might go up. Larger get more or ??
Basically make the prize (total purse) $6 billion, divided amngst the class
winners..
More fair?

There would have to be a seperate organization set up to monitor the events,
umpire and such and watch for safety violations (or maybe not, if peopel want
to risk thier own lives let them do it?).

	I just got my advance program and the "card in the back" is for the
	Exhibits Plus program -- the exhibits plus admission to a number of
	conference venues, including a special general session, "Behind the
	Scenes: Computer Graphics in Film."  Admission is not free, but is a
	nominal $30 (exhibits are open August 3 -- 5).

	To get a copy of the advance program, you can call 312-321-6830; the
	advance program itself is a good indication of the excitement of the
	conference!

	Sorry -- doesn't work this year!

On a slightly different note:

There are two buildings in NY state with big 666 numbers on the
roof :)

One in Manhattan and one near Garden City. The Garden City one
is a nice black unmarked building...

  Bill, I find it rather remarkable that you managed to zero in on what is
probably the weakest evidence.

  What is probably the most convincing is the anti-Christian literature put out
by the Jewish councils in the second century.  There are enormous quantities of
detailed arguments against Christianity, many of the arguments still being used
today.  Despite volumes of tracts attacking Christianity, not one denies the
existance of Jesus, only of his activities.

  I find this considerably more compelling than Josephus or the harmony of the
gospels (especially considering that Matthew and Luke probably used Mark as a
source).

Gamepro magazine published pictures a few months ago and Computer Chronicles
(a program that is syndicated to public tv stations around the nation) spent
several minutes on it when it was shown at CES.  It was very impressive what
it can do in real time.

John Munsch

From article <C5owCB.n3p@world.std.com>, by tombaker@world.std.com (Tom A Baker):

My understanding is that the 'expected errors' are basically
known bugs in the warning system software - things are checked
that don't have the right values in yet because they aren't
set till after launch, and suchlike. Rather than fix the code
and possibly introduce new bugs, they just tell the crew
'ok, if you see a warning no. 213 before liftoff, ignore it'.

Where were you brought up?  In the former USSR?  Is Innocent until proven  
guilty by a jury of your peers, NOT Dan Rather, dead in this country?  Seems  
so.  Is tax evasion, the only charge brought against the BDs, punishable by  
death in this country, now?

Not really.  You are a blind idiot.

"Not sure", yet you condem them to death for it?  If the BATF had stayed home,  
all would be alive, now.  So who murdered who?
You have a short memory.

next.

Sleep well, tonite, heartless idiot.  Sleep the sleep of the simple-minded.

I shall weep for my country, myself.

I'm short of patience tonite, but rabid dogs deserve and get better treatment  
than the BDs got.

Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com

I would like to add my support for a misc.taoism discussion group.
I applaud the enthusiam shown by the person posting <79899@cup.portal.com> 
"Thyagi@cup.portal.com" (I read in alt.magick), but I differ
with him/her in believing that at least some minimal parameters 
should be agreed upon.

But if we don't limit it to *something*, the discussion degenerates into
a big amorphous glob. 

Other questions Thyagi proposes are:

It seems to me that these questions more properly fall into the
category of "general metaphysics". I would prefer any misc.taoism
to deal more closely with topics and works more closely associated
with at least "semi-orthodox" Taoism: with established classic works 
definitely included and works like Mantak Chia's argued about! 

I think "neo-Taoism" should be excluded or get its own group (what I
mean by this is "Humpty-Dumpty Taoism", in which Taoism means whatever 
a poster says it means.) This "alt.taoism" could also be a refuge 
for debates about what "Taoism *REALLY* means" or speculations on sexual
alchemy, etc..

e.g. (from Thyagi again):

Kent gloomily predicts (quoting from Thyagi's article):

I think that discussions of this nature are not completely out of
place. What's happening is that that the term "Taoism" is becoming
completely polluted and trivialized like the words "magic", "Alchemy", 
"Zen," etc., by writers appropriating the word to mean whatever they 
want. This is seen by the spate of new age books entitled "The
Tao of" this, that, and everything else. (With respect to some exceptions
like the books by Jou, Tsung-Hwa.)

Any other comments/ideas? I look forward to seeing them. On balance,
I say let misc.taoism rip and let the chips fall where they may. If
it just gets filled up with college freshmen asking about the
Tao of Sex then it will have been a failure and people will post to
these groups just as they do now.

-- 

Great! I'll visit the National Air and Space Museum at the end of the
month with my wife, who was also working at General Atomic at the time.
Once again netnews has enriched my life.

I'd have to say that I have a problem with any organization, 
religious or not, where the idea that _simple speech_ such
as this is the basis for a crime.

Which objective system are you talking about?  What is its goal?
Again, which brand of morality are you talking about?

DC-X as is today isn't suitable for this. However, the followon SDIO
funds will. A reusable sounding rocket was always SDIO's goal.

So did I. There is a lot going on now and some reports are due soon 
which should be very favorable. The insiders have been very bush briefing
the right people and it is now paying off.

However, public support is STILL critical. In politics you need to keep
constant pressure on elected officials.

  Allen

blechhhh.  Gimme that ole' time Inquisition ...

It figures, doesn't it?

"Space Station Redesign Leader Says Cost Goal May Be
Impossible"

Today (4/6) the Washington Post ran an article with the
headline shown above. The article starts with "A leader
of the NASA team in charge of redesigning the planned
space station said yesterday the job is tough and may
be impossible." O'Connor is quoted saying whether it is
possible to cut costs that much and still provide for
meaningful research "is a real question for me."
O'Connor said "everything is fair game," including
"dropping or curtailing existing contracts with the
aerospace industry, chopping management of the space
station program at some NASA facilities around the
country, working closely with the Russian space station
Mir, and using unmanned Titan rockets to supplement the
manned space shuttle fleet."

O'Connor says his team has reviewed 30 design options
so far, and they are sorting the serious candidates
into three categories based on cost.

The Post says O'Connor described the design derived
from the current SSF as a high cost option (I believe
Kathy Sawyer, the Post writer, got confused here. I
listened in on part of O'Connor's briefing to the press
on Monday, and in one part of the briefing O'Connor
talked about how the White House wants three options,
sorted by cost [low, medium, and high]. In another part
of the briefing, he discussed the three teams he has
formed to look at three options [SSF derivative @ LaRC,
modular buildup with Bus-1 @ MSFC, and Single Launch
Core ["wingless Orbiter"] @ JSC. Later, in response to
a reporters question, I thought I heard O'Connor say
the option based on a SSF redesign was a "moderate"
cost option, in between low & high cost options. Not
the "high cost" option as Sawyer wrote).

The article goes on to describe the other two options
as "one features modules that could gradually be fitted
together in orbit, similar to the Russian Mir. The
other is a core facility that could be deposited in
orbit in a single launch, like Skylab. That option
would use existing hardware from the space shuttle -
the fuselage, for example, in its basic structure."

	Up to that point I thought you were talking about the
Rosicrucian Order... :-)  [No offense intended!]

Well it rolled out two weeks ago. As we speak it is at White Sands getting
ready. I would have called my sources for the latest but they are all out
of town (in NM).

As for the future, there is at least $5M in next years budget for work
on SSRT. They (SDIO) have been looking for more funds and do seem to have
some. However, SDIO is not (I repeat, is not) going to fund an orbital
prototype. The best we can hope from them is to 1) keep it alive for
another year, and 2) fund a suborbital vehicle which MIGHT (with
major modifications) just make orbit. There is also some money for a
set of prototype tanks and projects to answer a few more open questions.

Better news comes from the new Spacelifter effort. The USAF managers of
this program are very open to SSTO and will have about $50M next
year for studies. This would be enough to bring DC-Y to PDR.

Now not all of this money will go to DC but a good case could be made
for spending half on DC.

Public support is STILL critical. Meet with your Congressperson (I'll
help you do it) and get his/her support. Also call your local media
ans get them to cover the flight tests.

   Allen

Speaking of Psygnosis, they have licensed games to Philips Interative
Media International for CD-I.

The following was recently posted in a message in the CD-I section of
the Multimedia Forum.

"Seventh Guest has been licensed by Virgin Games to Philips Interactive
Media International for worldwide CD-I rights. Were also licensed to
P.I.M.I. Litil Divil from Gremlin Graphics (UK) and Microcosm from
Psygnosis (UK). Those three titles will be adapted on CD-I using the full
potential of the FMV cartridge, meaning, using the additional memory as
well as the motion video capabilities. Those titles have been negociated
in Europe but will be available worldwide.

Also, Lemmings 1 & 2 have been licensed from Psygnosis, as well as Striker
Soccer from Rage (UK)."

I don't know when these titles will be available or when work on them even
started (so don't expect your CD-I retailer to have them yet).

There was also some mention of future Nintendo CD-I games in an issue of the
UK magazine ERT - Mario Hotel was mentioned as having 75 levels.

Mark

[Although I work for Philips, I don't work on CD-I or multimedia. The above
info is just provided in good faith from what I've read and does not
represent any statement from Philips]

UN Resolution 666 guarantees humanitarian aid will get into Irag during
the Gulf War.  Is this war over? Is aid getting in, or are they still
trying to smoke out Saddam?  Is this the Middle East?  Are we talking
religious war here?  Am I ranting?

Ed Campion
Headquarters, Washington, D.C.                             April 23, 1993
(Phone:  202/358-1780)

Kyle Herring
Johnson Space Center, Houston
(Phone:  713/483-5111)

RELEASE:  93-76

HUBBLE TELESCOPE SERVICING MISSION SCHEDULED FOR ELEVEN DAYS

	The December flight of Endeavour on Space Shuttle mission STS-61 to
service the Hubble Space Telescope (HST) has been scheduled as an 11 day
mission designed to accommodate a record five spacewalks with the capability
for an additional two, if needed.

	The decision to schedule five extravehicular activities, or EVAs, was
reached following extensive evaluations of underwater training, maneuver times
required using the Shuttle's robot arm based on software simulations and actual
EVA tasks on previous missions.

	"Basically what we've done by going to five EVAs rather than three is
to repackage our margin so that we have the capability to respond to the
dynamics, or unknowns, of spacewalks," Mission Director Randy Brinkley said.
"It improves the probabilities for mission success while providing added
flexibility and adaptability for reacting to real-time situations."

	In laying out the specific tasks to be completed on each of the
spacewalks, officials have determined that changing out the gyros, solar arrays
and the Wide Field/Planetary Camera (WF/PC) and installing the Corrective
Optics Space Telescope Axial Replacement (COSTAR) are priority objectives
during the mission.

	"When we looked at accomplishing all of the tasks, highest through
lowest priority, and recognizing that the major tasks -- gyros, solar arrays,
WF/PC and COSTAR -- would consume most of the time set aside for each
spacewalk, five EVAs were deemed appropriate," said Milt Heflin, Lead Flight
Director for the mission.

	While the five spacewalks will be unprecedented, the use of two
alternating spacewalk teams will alleviate placing more stress on the crew than
previous missions requiring two, three or four EVAs.

	"We have paid close attention to lessons learned during previous
spacewalks and factored these into our timeline estimates for five EVAs,"
Heflin said.  "In planning for all Space Shuttle missions, it is necessary to
formulate a work schedule that represents as realistic a timeline as possible
to accomplish the mission objectives."

	Planning currently calls for at least five water tank training sessions
that include support from the Mission Control Center, called joint integrated
simulations, lasting between 10 and 36 hours.  In addition, many stand alone
underwater training "runs" will practice individual tasks in each spacewalk.

	Various refinements to the specific tasks on each spacewalk will be
made based on actual training experience during the months prior to the
mission.  Also, lessons learned from other spacewalks leading up to the flight
will be valuable in assisting the STS-61 crew in its training techniques.

	Endeavour's June flight and Discovery's July mission both will include
spacewalks to evaluate some of the unique tools to be used on the HST mission.
The evaluations will help in better understanding the differences between the
actual weightlessness of space and the ground training in the water tanks at
the Johnson Space Center, Houston, and the Marshall Space Flight Center,
Huntsville, Ala.

	Also, the inflight spacewalking experiences will assist in gaining
further insight into the time required for the various tasks and expand the
experience levels among the astronaut corps, the flight controllers and
trainers.

	Designed to be serviced by a Space Shuttle crew, Hubble was built with
grapple fixtures and handholds to assist in the capture and repair procedures.

	The telescope was launched aboard Discovery in April 1990.  At that
time the NASA mixed fleet manifest showed the first revisit mission to HST in
1993 to change out science instruments and make any repairs that may have
become necessary.

I am in the market for a 24-bit graphics card for a PC (ISA bus), and
was wondering if anyone had any comments (good? bad? otherwise?) regarding
the Diamond Stealth 24?  

Let's say you have a scanned image of a line drawing; in this case a
boat, but it could be anything.  On the drawing you have a set of
reference points whose true x,y positions are known.  

Now you digitize the drawing manually (in this case, using Yaron
Danon's excellent Digitize program).  That is, you use a program which
converts cursor positions to x,y and saves those values when you click
the mouse.

Upon digitizing you notice that the reference point values that come
out of the digitizing process differ in small but significant ways
from the known true values.  This is understandable because the
scanned drawing is a reproduction of the original and there are
successive sources of distortion such as differential expansion and
contraction of paper, errors introduced in the printing process,
scanner errors and what have you.

The errors are not uniform over the entire drawing, so "global"
adjustments such as stretching/contracting uniformly over x or y, or
rotating the whole drawing, are not satisfactory.

So the question is: does any kind soul know of an algorithm for
removing such distortion?  In particular, if I have three sets of
points 

Reference(x,y) (the known true values)

DistortedReference(x,y) (the same points, with known errors)

DistortedData(x,y) (other points, with unknown errors)

what function of Reference and Distorted could I apply to
DistortedData to remove the errors.

I suspect the problem could be solved by treating the distorted
reference points as resulting from the projection of a "bumpy" 3d
surface, solving for the surface and then "flattening" it to remove
the errors in the other data points.

Any kind and informed soul out there have any ideas, or better yet,
pointers to treatments of the same or similar problems?

Thanks,

Hehehe, so you say, but this objective morality somehere tells you 
that this is not the case, and you don't know all the rules of such
transcendental game systems...

Cheers,
Kent

Hello, I realize that this might be a FAQ but I have to ask since I don't get a
change to read this newsgroup very often.  Anyways for my senior project I need
to convert an AutoCad file to a TIFF file.  Please I don't need anyone telling
me that the AutoCAD file is a vector file and the TIFF is a bit map since I
have heard that about 100 times already I would just like to know if anyone
knows how to do this or at least point me to the right direction.

Read Issue #2 of Wired Magazine.  It has a long article on the "hype" of
3DO.  I've noticed that every article talks with the designers and how
"great" it is, but never show any pictures of the output (or at least
pictures that one can understand)

We are not at the end of the Space Age, but only at the end of Its
beginning.

That space exploration is no longer a driver for technical innovation,
or a focus of American cultural attention is certainly debatable; however,
technical developments in other quarters will always be examined for
possible applications in the space area and we can look forward to
many innovations that might enhance the capabilities and lower the
cost of future space operations. 

The Dream is Alive and Well.

Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
when they were told to pay for  restoring land  after strip mining.

they still mine coal in the midwest,  but now it doesn't look like
the moon when theyare done.

/(hudson)
/If someone inflicts pain on themselves, whether they enjoy it or not, they
/are hurting themselves.  They may be permanently damaging their body.

That is true.  It is also none of your business.  

Some people may also reason that by reading the bible and being a Xtian
you are permanently damaging your brain.  By your logic, it would be OK
for them to come into your home, take away your bible, and send you off
to "re-education camps" to save your mind from ruin.  Are you ready for
that?  

/(hudson)
/And why is there nothing wrong with it?  Because you say so?  Who gave you
/the authority to say that, and set the standard for morality?

Why?

Because: 
I am a living, thinking person able to make choices for myself.
I do not "need" you to show me what you think is the way; I have observed
too many errors in your thinking already to trust you to make up the
rules for me.

Because:
I set the standard for my *own* morality, and I permit you to do 
the same for yourself.  I also do not try to force you to accept my rules.

Because:
Simply because you don't like what other people are doing doesn't give you
the right to stop it, Hudson.  We are all aware that you would like for 
everyone to be like you.  However, it is obnoxious, arrogant thinking like 
yours, the "I-know-I'm-morally-right-so-I-can-force-it-on-you" bullshit 
that has brought us religious wars, pogroms against Jews, gay-bashing,
and other atrocities by other people who, like you, "knew" they were
morally right.

(me)

/(hudson)
/Aren't you?  Aren't you indicating that I should not tell other people what
to do?  Aren't you telling me it is wrong for me to do that? 

It is not a moral standard that I am presenting you with, Hudson.  It is
a key to getting along in life with other people.  It is also a point of
respect:  I trust other people to be intelligent enough to make their
own choices, and I expect the same to be returned.  You, on the other
hand, do not trust them, and want to make the choice for them--whether
they like it or not.

It is also a way to avoid an inconsistency:  if you believe that you have 
the right to set moral standards for others and interfere in their lives, 
then you must, by logic, admit that other people have the same right of 
interference in your life.  
(Yes, I know; you will say that your religion is correct and tells you that
only agents acting in behalf of your religion have the right of interference.
However, other people will say that you have misinterpreted the Word of
God and that *they* are the actual true believers, and that you are
acting on your own authority.  And so it goes).

(hudson)
/Who gave
/you the authority to set such a moral standard for me to tell me that I 
/cannot set a moral standard for others?

You can set all the standards that you want, actually.  But don't be surprised
if people don't follow you like rats after the Pied Piper.  

At the most basic form, I am not going to LET you tell me what to do;
and if necessary, I will beat you to a bloody pulp before I let you actually
interfere in my life.

This algorithm works well for me:

Algorithm to attempt to find outward-facing normals:
---------------------------------------------------
First, mark all faces as UNKNOWN.

Then create an edge dictionary that allows you to find all of the
faces sharing a given edge (where an edge is two integers representing
the two shared vertices).

Pick an arbitrary face and mark it COUNTER_CLOCKWISE.  Using the edge
dictionary, orient all surrounding faces based on the orientation of
this face.  And recurse for all surrounding faces, consistently
orienting the entire surface.

Find the average of the vertices in this surface.  Using that point,
calculate a volume measurement, taking into account the face's
orientation.  If the volume turns out to be positive, assume the faces
are oriented correctly.  If it is negative, reverse their orientations
(mark them CLOCKWISE).

If any faces are still UNKNOWN after this, choose another face
and go through the algorithm again.

At the end, faces marked CLOCKWISE must have their indices reversed
before facet normals are found.

(Note: if you are running on Silicon Graphics machines and buy the
IRIS Inventor 3D toolkit developers package you have the source to
this algorithm-- see /usr/src/Inventor/tools/ivnorm/.  If you're
not... sorry, I can't give out the source, and even if I could it
relies heavily on Inventor).

This (frayed) thread has turned into a patented alt.atheism 5-on-1
ping-pong game, and I don't have any strong disagreement, so I'll try
to stick to the one thing I don't quite follow about the argument:

It seems to me that there is a contradiction in arguing that the Bible
was "enlightened for its times" (i.e. closer to what we would consider
morally good based on our standards and past experience) on the one
hand [I hope this summarizes this argument adequately], and on the
other hand:

}|> }Disclaimer:  I'm speaking from the Jewish perspective,
}|> }where "the Bible" means what many call the Old Testament,
}|> }and where the interpretation is not necessarily the
}|> }raw text, but instead the court cases, commentaries
}|> }and traditions passed down through Jewish communities.
}|> 
}|> This seems the crux to me: if you judge the Bible according to a long
}|> line of traditions and interpretations coming down to the current day,
}|> rather than on its own merits as a cultural artifact, then of course
}|> it will correspond more closely with more contemporary values.
}
}But if that's how the Bible is actually being used today,
}shouldn't that be how we should judge it?  If most people
}use scissors to cut paper, shouldn't Consumer's Reports
}test scissors for paper-cutting ability, even though
}scissors may have been designed originally to cut cloth?

That's possibly a good way to judge the use of the Bible in teaching
Jewish morality today, but it hardly seems fair to claim that this
highly-interpreted version is what was "enlightened for its times".
To (attempt to) extend the analogy, this is like saying that the
original scissor-makers were unusually advanced at paper-cutting for
their times, even though they only ever cut cloth, and had never even
heard of paper.

I'm not arguing that the Bible is "disgusting", though some of the
history depicted in it is, by modern standards.  However, history is
full of similar abuses, and I don't think the Biblical accounts are
worse than their contemporaries--or possibly ours.  On the other hand,
I don't know of any reason to think the history described in the Bible
shows *less* abuse than their contemporaries, or ours.  That complex
and benign moral traditions have evolved based on particular mythic
interpretations of that history is interesting, but I still don't
think it fair to take that long tradition of interpretation and use it
to attack condemnation of the original history.

Sure, but Robert "Koresh-Fetesh" (sic) Knowles seems good, too.  :) 

Though I wasn't there, at least I can rely on you now to keep me posted on what
what he's doing.

Have you any other fetishes besides those for beef jerky and David Koresh? 
--

I'm sure it is, and I am not amused.  Every time I read that part of the
TIFF spec, it infuriates me- and I'm none too happy about the
complexity of the spec anyway- because I think their "arbitrary but
carefully chosen number" is neither.  Additionally, I find their
choice of 4 bytes to begin a file with meaningless of themselves- why
not just use the letters "TIFF"?

(And no, I don't think they should have bothered to support both word
orders either- and I've found that many TIFF readers actually
don't.)

}>For several years I've periodically asked Charley Wingate to explain this
}>mythical alternative to rationality which he propounds so enthusiastically
}>when he pops up every few months.  His reluctance to explain indicates to me
}>that it's not so hot.
}
}I've said enough times that there is no "alternative" that should think you
}might have caught on by now.  And there is no "alternative", but the point
}is, "rationality" isn't an alternative either.  The problems of metaphysical
}and religious knowledge are unsolvable-- or I should say, humans cannot
}solve them.

If there is truly no alternative, then you have no basis whatsoever
for your claim.  The usual line here, which you call "a prejudgment of
atheism", and dispute, is that reason is all we have.  Here you admit
that you have no alternative, no possible basis for the claim that
there is anything other than reason or that reason is inapplicable in
religious knowledge, except possibly that reason conflicts with
"religious knowledge".

This sounds very much like "I can't provide a rational defense for my
belief, but prefer to discard rationality rather than accept that it
may be false".  I hope it makes you happy, but your repeated and
unfounded assertions to this effect don't advance your cause.

I always thought that the Pope was a bear.

You know, because of that little saying:

Does a bear shit in the woods?
Is the Pope Catholic?

No. I estimate a 99 % probability the Gehrels referred to
is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project, Kitt Peak observatory.

Maybe in the 24th century they could do gamma ray spectroscopy on
distant asteroids with an orbiting observatory, but here in the
primitive 20th we have to send a probe there to get gamma ray
spectroscopy done.

You have the info on Mayan Television yet?

Another source:  There's a poly blitter for mode y (mode x in 320x200)
at sunee.uwaterloo.ca.  Also there is REND386, an even faster 3D
renderer with VR extensions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why so up tight?  FOr that matter, TIFF6 is out now, so why not gripe
about its problems?  Also, if its so important to you, volunteer to
help define or critique the spec.

Finally, a little numerology:  42 is 24 backwards, and TIFF is a 24 bit
image format...

Chris

 Umm, perhaps you could explain what 'rights' we are talking about
here ..

You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff *if* you assume
no new launcher development.  If you assume new launcher development, with
lower costs as a specific objective, then you probably don't want to
build something HLV-sized anyway.

So what you're saying is that your mind is made up, and you'll just explain
away any differences at being statistically insignificant?

So you'll just explain away any inconsistancies in your "theory" as being
"a special case".

You just equated them.  Re-read your own words.

A study release in 1991 found that 11% of female seagulls are lesbians.

Now, apply this last sentence of your to YOUR theory.  Notice how your are
contridicting observations?

You don't know much math, do you?  The ability to use SAS to determine the
length of the third side of the triangle is fundemental to geometry.

Goals <> postulates.

Again, if one of the "goals" of this "objective/natural morality" system
you are proposing is "survival of the species", then homosexuality is
immoral.

I must correct the following in my previous posting:
 
: If you are trying to be objective, you must also recognise that
: 
: 1) the gospels are not independent sources, on the contrary, they
: share much of the same material

I should have been a bit more careful here - the gospels not only
tell us about the same events, they usually use the same wordings.
Textual analyses show that Matthew and Luke probably had a common
source, which may have influenced Mark, too.

Petri

The same way that any theory is proven false.  You examine the predicitions
that the theory makes, and try to observe them.  If you don't, or if you
observe things that the theory predicts wouldn't happen, then you have some 
evidence against the theory.  If the theory can't be modified to 
incorporate the new observations, then you say that it is false.

For example, people used to believe that the earth had been created
10,000 years ago.  But, as evidence showed that predictions from this 
theory were not true, it was abandoned.

There are actually only two of us.  I do Henry, Fred, Tommy and Mary.  Oh yeah,
this isn't my real name, I'm a bald headed space baby.

How does that saying go: Those who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt
those who are doing it.

Jim

Can somebody elaborate on "Area Ruling".  I gather it's something to
do with aerodynamics of trans-sonic planes, and can be summarised as
"Coke bottle good, Coke can bad".  Anyone provide more details,
derivation etc?

Is Impulse shipping IMAGINE for the PC386/486?  How close is it to the
Amiga's IMAGINE 2.0, in terms of features?

Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times.

I would appreciate any advice.

'Illumination and Color in Computer Generated Imagery' by Roy Hall contains c
source for several famous illumination models, including Bouknight, Phong,
Blinn, Whitted, and Hall illumination models. If you want an introduction to
shading you might look through the book 'Writing a Raytracer' edited by
Glassner. Also, the book 'Procedural elements for Computer Graphics' by Rogers
is a good reference. Source for code in these book are available on the net i 
believe, you might check out nic.funet.fi or some site closer to you carrying 
graphics related stuff. 

Hope this is what you were asking for.
-- 
Torgeir Veimo

Studying at the University of Bergen

"...I'm gona wave my freak flag high!" (Jimi Hendrix)

I don't know a whole lot on Proton, but given that it is a multi stage
rocket,  up to 4 stages, it may not really need the Centaur,  plus
it may end up seriously beating on said centaur.   

Also, the centaur is not small,  unless the Proton has an oversize
shroud you may not be able to get the centaur in under it.

Dennis,  you know much about this?

DROPLET VOL 1, No 11, Part 3

D R O P L E T

VOL 1, No 11, Part 3

A TREATISE ON THE MIRACLES OF MUHAMMED SAW, Part 3       

(continued from Droplet Vol 1, No 11, Part 2)

   THIRD SIGN:  The miracles of Muhammad (SAW)
are extremely varied.  Because his messengership is
universal, he has been distinguished by  miracles that
relate to almost all species of creation.
    Just as the supreme aide of a renowned ruler, arriving
with many gifts in a city where various people live, will be
welcomed by a representative of each people who
acclaims him and bids him welcome in his own language
so, too, when the supreme messenger of the Monarch of
Pre- and  Post-Eternity  (Ezel and Ebed  Sultani) honored the
universe by coming as an envoy to the inhabitants of the
earth, and brought with him the light of truth and spiritual
gifts sent by the Creator of the universe and derived from
the realities of the whole universe, each species of
creation -from water, rocks, trees, animals and human
beings to the moon, sun and stars- welcomed him and
acclaimed his prophethood, each in its own language, and
each bearing one of his miracles.
    Now it would require a voluminous work to mention all
his miracles.  As the punctilious scholars have written
many volumes concerning the proofs of His prophethood,
here we will briefly point out only the general category
into which fall fhe miracles that are definite and accepted
as accurate reports.
    The evidences of the prophethood of Muhammad
(SAW) fall into two main categories:  

    The first is called irhasat and includes the paranormal 
events that happened at the time of his birth, or before his 
declaration of prophethood.  

    The second group pertains to all the remaining evidences 
of the prophethood, and contains two subdivisions: 

    1) Those wonders that were manifested after
his departure from this world in order to confirm his
prophethood, and 
	2) Those that he exhibited during the era
of his prophethood.  The latter has also two parts:  
	2.1) The evidences of his prophethood that became manifest
in his own personality, his inner and outer being, his moral
conduct and perfection, and 
    2.2) The miracles that: related to substantial matters.  
The last part again has two branches:  
	2.2.1) Those concerning the Qur'an and spirituality, and 
	2.2.2) Those relating to matter and creation.  This last 
branch is again divided into two categories:  
	2.2.2.1) The first involves the paranormal happenings 
that occured during his mission either to break the 
stubbornness of the unbelievers, or to augment the
faith of the belivers.  This category has twenty different
sorts, such as the splitting of the moon, the flowing of
water from the fingers, the satisfying of large numbers with
a little food, and the speaking of trees, rocks and animals
Each of these sons has also many instances, and thus
has, in meaning, the strength of confirmation by
consensus.  
	2.2.2.2)  As for the second category, this
includes events lying in the future that occured as he had
predicted upon Allah (SWT)'s instructions.  Now starting
from the last category, we will summarize a list of them.(1)

(1) Unfonunately, I could not write as I had intended
without choice, I wrote as my head dictated, and I could
not completely conform to the order of this classification.

Thanks for the information!

I assume p is the semi-major axis and e the eccentricity.  The peri-
helion and aphelion are then given by p(1-e) and p(1+e), i.e., about
2.90 and 3.95 AU respectively.  For Jupiter, they are 4.95 and 5.45 AU.
If 1977 was after the temporary capture, this means that the comet
ended up in an orbit that comes no closer than 1 AU to Jupiter's --
which I take to be a rough indication of how far from Jupiter it could
get under Jupiter's influence.

Where 1 Jupiter radius = 71,000 km = 44,000 mi = 0.0005 AU.  So the
1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove.
Is that the case for the 1973 figure as well?
-- 
Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto		"Remember the Golgafrinchans"
utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com					-- Pete Granger

I think the problem here is that I pretty much ignored the part
about the Jews sightseeing for 2000 years, thinking instead that
the important part of what the original poster said was the bit
about killing Palestinians.  In retrospect, I can see how the
sightseeing thing would be offensive to many.  I originally saw
it just as poetic license, but it's understandable that others
might see it differently.  I still think that Ken came on a bit
strong though.  I also think that your advice to Masud Khan:

  #Before you argue with someone like Mr Arromdee, it's a good idea to
  #do a little homework, or at least think.

was unnecessary.

Throughout all your articles in this thread there is the tacit
assumption that the original poster was exhibiting casual
anti-semitism.  If I agreed with that, then maybe your speech
on why this is bad might have been relevant.  But I think you're
reading a lot into one flip sentence.  While probably not
true in this case, too often the charge of anti-semitism gets
thrown around in order to stifle legitimate criticism of the
state of Israel.

Anyway, I'd rather be somewhere else, so I'm outta this thread.

This seems to be a simple problem but I just cannot solve it.
I wrote a C program to draw some polygons on the screen, and I want to 
print it on my printer. So, I press "print-screen" on the keyboard.
The problem is the printer just print out some ASCII characters.
Is there any other way to print the screen without using "print-screen"????

I'm looking for any information on detecting and/or calculating a double
point and/or cusp in a bezier curve.

An algorithm, literature reference or mail about this is very appreciated,

The most ridiculous example of VR-exploitation I've seen so far is the
"Virtual Reality Clothing Company" which recently opened up in Vancouver. As
far as I can tell it's just another "chic" clothes spot. Although it would be
interesting if they were selling "virtual clothing"....

E-mail me if you want me to dig up their phone # and you can probably get
some promotional lit.

Background: The Orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept.  It
would be a drive using thermonuclear explosions to drive a spacecraft.
The idea was that you'd detonate devices with somewhere from one to
ten megatons yield behind a "pusher plate" attached to the main
spacecraft.  The shock wave from the explosions would transfer
momentum to the ship.

  Now, in an atmosphere I can see this.  The energy of the explosion
heats the atmosphere, which expands explosively and slams a shock wave
into the pusher plate.  But in a vacuum, only two things I can see are
going to hit the plate: fission/fusion products (barium, krypton,
helium, neutrons, evaporated bomb casing) and electromagnetic
radiation (gammas mostly, some light/heat from irradiated fission
products).

  Would this work?  I can't see the EM radiation impelling very much
momentum (especially given the mass of the pusher plate), and it seems
to me you're going to get more momentum transfer throwing the bombs
out the back of the ship than you get from detonating them once
they're there.

  I must be missing something.  Would someone enlighten me via email?

  Thanks.

-- 
	--Jim

I was wondering if the FAQ files could be posted quarterly rather than monthly.  Every 28-30 days, I get this bloated feeling.
 
i am sorry, but this genoa card does nothing that the ATI ultra plus 2mb
can't do, PLUS the ATI costs 330$US street price ....

Archive-name: graphics/resources-list/part2
Last-modified: 1993/04/17

Computer Graphics Resource Listing : WEEKLY POSTING [ PART 2/3 ]
===================================================
Last Change : 17 April 1993

14. Plotting packages

Gnuplot 3.2
-----------
  It is one of the best 2- and 3-D plotting packages, with
  online help.It's a command-line driven interactive function plotting utility
  for UNIX, MSDOS, Amiga, Archimedes, and VMS platforms (at least!).
  Freely distributed, it supports many terminals, plotters, and printers
  and is easily extensible to include new devices.
  It was posted to comp.sources.misc in version 3.0, plus 2 patches.
  You can practically find it everywhere (use Archie to find a site near you!).
  The comp.graphics.gnuplot newsgroup is devoted to discussion of Gnuplot.

Xvgr and Xmgr (ACE/gr)
-----------------------
  Xmgr is an XY-plotting tool for UNIX workstations using
  X or OpenWindows. There is an XView version called xvgr for
  Suns. Collectively, these 2 tools are known as ACE/gr.
  Compiling xmgr requires the Motif toolkit version 1.1
  and X11R4 - xmgr will not compile under X11R3/Motif 1.0x.

  Check at ftp.ccalmr.ogi.edu [129.95.72.34} in
  /CCALMR/pub/acegr/xmgr-2.09.tar.Z (Motif version)
  /CCALMR/pub/acegr/xvgr-2.09.tar.Z (XView version)

  Comments, suggestions, bug reports to Paul J Turner
  <pturner@amb4.ese.ogi.edu> (if mail fails, try pturner@ese.ogi.edu).
  Due to time constraints, replies will be few and far between.

Robot
-----
  Release 0.45 : 2-D and limited 3-D. Based on XView 3, written
  in C / Fortran (so you need a Fortran compiler or the f2c translator).
  Mainly tested on Sun4, less on DECstations. Check at
  ftp.astro.psu.edu (128.118.147.28),  pub/astrod.

VG plotting library
-------------------
  This is a library of Fortran callable routines at sunspot.ceee.nist.gov
  [129.6.64.151]

Xgobi
-----
  It's being developed at Bellcore, and its speciality are
  multidimensional data sets analysis and exploration. You can call it
  from the S language also, and it works as an X11 client using the Athena
  widget set (or with an ASCII terminal). It's distributed free of charge
  from STATLIB at CMU.
  To get it via e-mail, send email to statlib@temper.stat.cmu.edu and
  in the body area of the message, put the line

  send xgobi from general

  If you want to pick it via ftp, connect to lib.stat.cmu.edu. Log in as
  "statlib" and use your e-mail address as your password. Then type

  cd general
  mget xgobi.*

  Warning: It's about 2 MB sources + large Postscript manual. Read the
  relevant README to decide whether you need it or not.

PGPLOT
------
  Runs on VAX/VMS and supposedly on UNIX. It's a set of fortran routines freely
  available (though copyrighted and requiring a nominal fee of $50 or so)
  that includes contour plots and support for various devices, including ps.
  Contact tjp@deimos.caltech.edu

GGRAPH
------
  Host shorty.cs.wisc.edu [128.105.2.8] : /pub/ggraph.tar.Z
  Unknown more details.

epiGRAPH
--------
  For PCs. Call dvj@lab2.phys.lgu.spb.su (Vladimir J. Dmitriev) for details.
  You can get the program demo or (and) play version, if sent 10 $ to

        1251 Budapest posta fiok 60
        Hungary
        ph/fax 1753696  Budapest
        ph     2017760

Multiplot XLN
-------------
  For Amigas, shareware ($30 USD, #20 UK or $40 Aust.). Advanced 2D package
  that has a big list of features. Contact:

  Dr. Alan Baxter <agb16@mbuc.bio.cam.ac.uk>,
  Cambridge University
  Department of Pathology,
  Tennis Court Road,
  Cambridge CB2 1QP, UK

+Athena Plotter Widget set
+-------------------------
+  
+  This version V6.0 is based on Gregory Bond's version V5-beta. Added
+  some stuff for scientific graphs, i.e. log axes, free scalable axes,
+  XY-lineplots and some more, and re-added plotter callbacks from V4, e.g.
+  to request the current pointer position, or to cut off a rectangle from the
+  plotting area for zooming-in. Version V6.0 has a log of bugs fixed and a
+  log of improvements against V6-beta. Additionally I did some other
+  changes/extensions, besides 
+  
+      -     Origin and frame lines for axes.
+      -     Subgrid lines on subtic positions.
+      -     Line plots in different line types (lines, points, lines+points,
+       impulses, lines+impulses, steps, bars), line styles (solid, dotted,
+       dashed, dot-dashed) and marker types for data points.
+      -     Legend at the right or left hand side of the plot.
+      -     Optional drawing to a pixmap instead of a window.
+      -     Layout callback for aligning axis positions when using
+       multiple plotters in one application.
+  
+  Available at export.lcs.mit.edu, directory contrib/plotter
+
+SciPlot
+-------
+  SciPlot is a scientific 2D plotting and manipulation program. 
+  For the NeXT (requires NeXTStep 3.0), and it's shareware.
+
+  Features:
+  ASCII import and export;  EPS export; copy, cut, paste with data buffer;
+  free number of data points, data buffer, and document window;
+  selective open and save ; plotting in many styles; automatic legend;
+  subviews; linear and logarithmic axes; two different axes; text and graphic;
+  color support; zoom; normalizing and moving; axis conversions;
+  free hand data manipulations (cut, edit, move, etc.); data editor; sorting
+  of data; absolute,relative, and free defined error bars;
+  calculating with buffers (+, -, *, / ); background subtractions
+  (linear,shirley,tougaard, bezier); integration and relative integration;
+  fitting of one or more free defined functions; linear regression;
+  calculations (+, -, *, /, sin, cos, log, etc.); function generator;
+  spline interpolation; least square smooth and FFT smooth; differentiation;
+  FFT; ESCA calculations and database; .. and something more 
+
+  You can find it on:
+  ftp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.7] : /pub/NeXT/science/SciPlot3.1.tar.Z
+
+  Author:
+  Michael Wesemann
+  Scillerstr. 73,1000 Berlin 12, Germany   
+  mike@fiasko.rz-berlin.mpg.de
+
+PLPLOT
+------
+  PLPLOT is a scientific plotting package for many systems, small (micro)
+  and large (super) alike.  Despite its small size and quickness,
+  it has enough power to satisfy most users, including:
+  standard x-y plots, semilog plots, log-log plots, contour plots, 3D plots,
+  mesh plots, bar charts and pie charts.  Multiple graphs (of the same or
+  different sizes) may be placed on a single page with multiple lines in each
+  graph.  Different line styles, widths and colors are supported.  A virtually
+  infinite number of distinct area fill patterns may be used.  There are
+  almost 1000 characters in the extended character set.  This includes four
+  different fonts, the Greek alphabet and a host of mathematical, musical, and
+  other symbols.  The fonts can be scaled to any size for various effects.
+  Many different output device drivers are available (system dependent),
+  including a portable metafile format and renderer.
+  
+  Freely available (but copyrighted) via anonymous FTP on
+  hagar.ph.utexas.edu, directory pub/plplot
+  
+  At present (v. 4.13), PLPLOT is known to work on the following systems:
+  
+  Unix:   SunOS, A/IX, HP-UX, Unicos, DG/UX, Ultrix
+  Other platforms: VMS, Amiga/Exec, MS-DOS, OS/2, NeXT
+  
+  Authors: Many. The main supporters are:
+  
+  Maurice LeBrun <mjl@fusion.ph.utexas.edu>: PLPLOT kernel and the metafile,
+     xterm, xwindow, tektronix, and Amiga drivers.
+  Geoff Furnish <furnish@fusion.ph.utexas.edu>: MS-DOS and OS/2 drivers
+  Tony Richardson <amr@egr.duke.edu>: PLPLOT on the NeXT
+
+SuperMongo
+----------
+  2-D plotting package at CMU, filename ~re00/tmp/SM.2.1.0.tar.Z
+  (probably under the ftp.cmu.edu or andrew.cmu.edu machines?)
+
+GLE
+---
+  GLE is a high quality graphics package for scientists.  It runs on a
+  variety of platforms (PCs, VAXes, and Unix) with drivers for XWindows,
+  REGIS, TEK4010, PC graphics cards, VT100s, HP plotters, Postscript
+  printers, Epson-compatible printers and Laserjet/Paintjet printers.  It
+  provides LaTEX quality fonts, as well as full support for Postscript
+  fonts.  The graphing module provides full control over all features of
+  graphs.  The graphics primitives include user-defined subroutines for
+  complex pictures and diagrams.
+
+  Accompanying utilities include Surface (for hidden line surface
+  plotting), Contour (for contour plots), Manip (for manipulation of
+  columnar data files), and Fitls (for fitting arbitrary equations to
+  data).
+
+  Mailing list: GLEList. Send a message to
+
+  listserver@tbone.biol.scarolina.edu, with a message boyd containing
+
+  sub glelist "Your Name"
+  
+ maintainer: Dean Pentcheff <dean2@tbone.biol.scarolina.edu>

==========================================================================

15. Image analysis software - Image processing and display
==========================================================

PC and Mac-based tools (multi-platform software)
======================

IMDISP
------
  IMDISP Written at JPL and other NASA sites. Can do simple display,
  enhancing, smoothing and so on. Works with the FITS and VICAR/PDS
  data formats of NASA. Can read TIFF images, if you know their dimensions
  [PC and Macs]

LabVIEW 2
---------
  LabVIEW is used as a framework for image processing tools. It provides a
  graphical programming environment using block diagram sketch is the
  "program" with graphical elements representing the programming elements.
  Hundreds of functions are already available and are connected using a
  wiring tool to create the block diagram (program).  Functions that the
  block diagrams represent include digital signal processing and
  filtering, numerical analysis, statistics, etc.  The tool allows any
  Virtual Instrument (VI, a software file that looks and acts like a real
  laboratory instrument) to be used as a part of any other virtual
  instrument.

  National Instruments markets plug-in digital signal processing (DSP)
  boards for Macintoshs and PC compatables that allow real-time
  acquisition and analysis at a personal computer.  New software tools for
  DSP are allowing engineers to harness the power of this technology. The
  tools range from low-level debugging software to high-level block
  diagram development software.  There are three levels of DSP programming
  associated with the NB-DSP2300 board and LabVIEW:
  Use of the NB-DSP2300 Analysis Library: FFTs, power spectra, filters
  routines callable from THINK C and Macintosh Programers Workshop (MPW) C
  that execute on the NB-DSP2300 board. There is an analysis Virtual
  Interface Library of ready-to-use VIs optimized for the NB-DSP2300.

  Use of the National Instruments Developers Toolkit that includes an
  optimizing C compiler, an assembler and a linker for low-level
  programming of the DSP hardware.  This approach offers the highest level
  of performance but is the must difficult in terms of ease of use.

  Use of the National Instruments Interface Kit software package which has
  utility functions for memory management data communications and
  downloading code to the NB-DSP2300 board. (This is the easiest route for
  the development of custom code.)

Ultimage Concept VI
  Concept VI  by Graftek-France is a family of image processing Virtual
  Instruments (VIs) that give LabVIEW 2 (described above) users high-end
  tools for designing, integrating and monitoring imaging control systems.
  A VI is a software file that looks and acts like a real laboratory
  instrument. Typical applications for Concept VI include thermography,
  surveillance, machine vision, production testing, biomedical imaging,
  electronic microscopy and remote sensing.

  Ultimage Concept VI addresses applications which require further
  qualitative and quantitative analysis.  It includes a complete set of
  functions for image enhancement, histogram equalization, spatial and
  frequency filtering, isolation of features, thresholding, mathematical
  morphology analysis, density measurement, object counting, sizing and
  characterization.

  The program loads images with a minimum resolution of 64 by 64, a pixel
  depth of 8, 16, or 32 bits, and one image plane.  Standard input and
  output formats include PICT, TIFF, SATIE, and AIPD.  Other formats can
  be imported.

  Image enhancement features include lookup table transformations, spatial
  linear and non-linear filters, frequency filtering, arithmetic and logic
  operations, and geometric transformations, among others.  Morphological
  transformations include erosion, dilation, opening, closing, hole
  removal, object separation, and extraction of skeletons, among others.
  Quantitative analysis provides for objects' detection, measurement, and
  morphological distribution.  Measures include area, perimeter, center of
  gravity, moment of inertia, orientation, length of relevant chords, and
  shape factors and equivalence.  Measures are saved in ASCII format.  The
  program also provides for macro scripting and integration of custom
  modules.

  A 3-D view command plots a perspective data graph where image intensity
  is depicted as mountains or valleys in the plot.  The histogram tool can
  be plotted with either a linear or logarithmic scale. The twenty-eight
  arithmetic and logical operations provide for: masking and averaging
  sections of images, noise removal, making comparisons, etc.  There are
  13 spatial filters that alter pixel intensities based on local
  intensity.  These include high-pass filters for contrast and outlines.
  The frequency data resulting from FFT analysis can be displayed as
  either the (real , imaginary ) components or the (phase, magnitude)
  data.  The morphological transformations are useful for data sharpening
  and defining objects or for removing artifacts.

  The transformations include: thresholding, eroding, dilating and even
  hole filling.

  The program's quantitative analysis measurements include: area,
  perimeter, center of mass, object counts, and angle between points.

  GTFS, Inc. 2455 Bennett Valley Road #100C Santa Rosa, CA 95494
  707-579-1733

IPLab Spectrum
  IPLAB Spectrum supports image processing and analysis but lacks the
  morphology and quantitative analysis features provided by
  Graftek-FranceUs Ultimage Concept VI.  Using scripting tools, the user
  tells the system the operations to be performed. The problem is that far
  too many basic operations require manual intervention. The tool
  supports: FFTs, 16 arithmetic operations for pixel alteration, and a
  movie command for cycling through windows.

Macintosh-based tools

NCSA Image, NCSA PalEdit and more
---------------------------------
  NCSA provides a whole suite of public-domain visualization tools for the
  Macintosh, primarily aimed at researchers wanting to visualize results
  from numerical modelling calculations.  These applications,
  documentation, and source code are available for anonymous ftp from
  ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu. Commercial versions of the NCSA programs have been
  developed by Spyglass.

  Spyglass, Inc. 701 Devonshire Drive Champaign, IL  61820 (217) 355-6000
  fax: 217 355 8925

NIH IMAGE
---------
  Available at alw.nih.gov (128.231.128.7) or (preferably)
  zippy.nimh.nih.gov [128.231.98.32], directory:/pub/image.
  It has painting and image manipulation tools, a macro language,
  tools for measuring areas, distances and angles, and for counting
  things. Using a frame grabber card, it can record sequences of
  images to be played back as a movie. It can invoke user-defined
  convolution matrix filters, such as Gaussian. It can import raw
  data in tab-delimited ASCII, or as 1 or 2-byte quantities. It also
  does histograms and even 3-D plots. It is limited to 8-bits/pixel,
  though the 8 bits map into a color lookup table. It runs on any Mac
  that has a 256-color screen and a FPU (or get the NonFPU version
  from zippy.nimh.nih.gov)

PhotoMac
--------
  Data Translation, Inc. 100 Locke Dr. Marlboro, MA 01752 508-481-3700

PhotoPress
----------
  Blue Solutions 3039 Marigold Place Thousand Oaks, CA 91360 805-492-9973

PixelTools and TCL-Image
------------------------
  "Complete family of PixelTools (hardware accelerator and applications
  software) for scientific image processing and analysis.  Video-rate
  capture, display, processing, and analysis of high-resolution
  monochromatic and color images.  Includes C source code."

TCL-Image:
  "Software package for scientific, quantitative image processing and
  analysis. It provides a complete language for the capture, enhancement,
  and extraction of quantitative information from gray-scale images.
  TCL_Image has over 200 functions for image processing, and contains the
  other elements needed in a full programming language for algorithm
  development -- variables and control structures.  It is easily
  extensible through "script" (or indirect command) files. These script
  files are simply text files that contain TCL-Image commands.  They are
  executed as normal commands and include the ability to pass parameters.
  The direct capture of video images is supported via popular frame
  grabber boards.  TCL-Image comes with the I-View utility that provides
  conversion between common image file types, such as PICT2 and TIFF."

  Perceptics 725 Pellissippi Parkway Knoxville, TN 37933 615-966-9200

Satellite Image Workshop
  It comes with a number of satellite pictures (raw data) and does all
  sorts of image enhancing on it. You'll need at least a Mac II with co-
  processor; a 256 color display and a large harddisk. The program doesn't
  run under system 7.x.ATE1 V1

  In the documentation the contact address is given as:  Liz Smith, Jet
  Propulsion Laboratory, MS 300-323, 4800 Oak Grove Dr,.Pasadena, CA 91109
  (818) 354-6980

Visualization Workbench
  "An electronic imaging software system that performs interactive image
  analysis and scientific 2D and 3D plotting."

  Paragon Imagine 171 Lincoln St. Lowell, MA 01852 508-441-2112

Adobe Photoshop
---------------

  The tool supports Rtrue colorS with 24-bit images or 256 levels of grey
  scale.  Once an image has been imported it can be Rre-touchedS with
  various editing tools typical of those used in Macintosh-based RpaintS
  applications.  These include an eraser, pencil, brush and air brush.
  Advanced RpasteS tools that control the interaction between a pasted
  selection and the receiving site have also been incorporated.  For
  example, all red pixels in a selection can easily be preventing from
  being pasted. Photoshop has transparencies ranging from 0 to 100%,
  allowing you to create ghost overlays.  RPhoto-editingS tools include
  control of the brightness and contrast, color balancing, hue/saturation
  modification and spectrum equalization.  Images can be subjected to
  various signal processing algorithms to smooth or sharpen the image,
  blur edges, or locate edges.  Image scaling is also supported.

  For storage savings, the images can be compressed using standard
  algorithms, including externally supplied compression such as JPEG,
  availlable from Storm Technologies. The latest version of Adobe
  Photoshop supports the import of numerous image formats including: EPSF,
  EPSF, TIFF, PICT resource, Amiga IFF/ILBM, CompuServe GIF, MacPaint,
  PIXAR, PixelPaint, Scitex CT, TGA and ThunderScan..

  Adobe Systems, Inc. 1585 Charlestown Road PO Box 7900 Mountain View, CA
  94039-7900 415-961-4400

ColorStudio and ImageStudio
---------------------------
  ColorStudio is an image-editing and paint package from Letraset that has
  more features than Adobe Photoshop but is decidedly more complex and
  therefore more difficult to use.  Several steps are often required to
  accomplish that which can be done in a single step using Photoshop.  The
  application requires a great deal of available disk space as one can
  easily end up with images in the 30 MB range.  The program provides a
  variety of powerful selection tools including the "auto selection tool"
  which lets the user choose image areas on the basis of color, close
  hues, color range and mask.

ImageStudio: Don't know...

  Letraset USA 40 Eisenhower Drive Paramus, NJ 07653 201-845-6100

Dapple Systems
  "High resolution image analysis software provides processing tools to
  work with multiple images, enhance and edit, and measure a variety of
  global or feature parameters, and interpret the data."

  Dapple Systems, 355 W. Olive Ave, #100 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 408-733-3283

Digital Darkroom
----------------
  The latest release of Digital Darkroom has five new selection and
  editing tools for enhancing images. One such feature allows the user to
  select part of an image simply by "painting" it. A new polyline
  selection tool creates a selection tool for single pixel wide
  selections.  A brush lets the operator "paint" with a selected portion
  of the image. Note that this is not a true color image enhancement tool.
  This tool should be used when the user intends to operate in grey-scale
  images only.  It should be noted that Digital Darkroom is not as
  powerful as either Adobe Photoshop or ColorStudio.

  Silicon Beach Software 9770 Carroll Ctr. Rd., Suite J San Diego, CA
  92126 619-695-6956

Dimple
------
  It  is compatible with system 6.05 and system 7.0 , requires Mac LC or
  II series with 256 colours, with a recommended min of 6Mb of ram. It has
  the capability of reading Erdas files. Functions include; image
  enhancement, 3D and contour plots, image statistics, supervised and
  unsupervised classification, PCA and other image transformations. There
  is also a means (Image Operation Language or IOL) by which you can write
  your own transformations. There is no image rectification, however
  Dimple is compatable with MAPII. The latest version is 1.4 and it is in
  the beta stage of testing. Dimple was initially developed as a teaching
  tool and it is very good for this purpose."

  "Dimple  runs on a colour Macintosh.  It is a product still in its
  development phase.. i.e. it doesn't have all the inbuilt features of
  other packages, but is coming along nicely.  It has its own inbuilt
  language for writing "programs" for processing an image, defining
  convolution filters etc. Dimple is a full mac application with pull down
  menus etc... It is unprotected software."

  Process Software Solutions, PO Box 2110, Wollongong, New South Wales,
  Australia. 2500. Phone 61 42 261757  Fax 61 42 264190.

Enhance
-------
  Enhance has a RrulerS tool that supports measurements and additionally
  provides angle data. The tool has over 80 mathematical filter
  variations: "Laplacian, medium noise filter", etc.  Files can be saved
  as either TIFF, PICT, EPSF or text (however EPSF files can't be imported).

  MicroFrontier 7650 Hickman Road Des Moines, IA  50322 515-270-8109

Image Analyst
  An image processing product for users who need to extract quantitative
  data from video images.  Image Analyst lets users configure
  sophisticated image processing and measurement routines without the
  necessity of knowing a programming language.  It is designed for such
  tasks at computing number and size of cells in images projected by video
  cameras attached to microscopes, or enhancing and measuring distances in
  radiographs.

  Image Analyst provides users with an array of field-proven video
  analysis techniques that enable them to easily assemble a sequence of
  instructions to enhance feature appearance; count objects; determine
  density, shape, size, position, or movement; perform object feature
  extraction; and conduct textural analysis automatically.  Image Analyst
  works with either a framegrabber board and any standard video camera, or
  a disk-stored image.

  Within minutes, without the need for programming, the Image Analyst user
  can set up a process to identify and analyze any element of a image.
  Measurements and statistics can be automatically or semi-automatically
  generated from TIFF or PICT files or from captured video tape images.
  Image Analyst recognizes items in images based on their size, shape and
  position.  The tool provides direct support for the Data Translation and
  Scion frame grabbers. A menu command allows for image capture from a VCR
  video camera or other NTSC or PAL devices.

  There are 2 types of files, the image itself and the related Sequence
  file that holds the processing, measurements and analysis that the user
  defines.  Automated sequences are set up in Regions Of Interest (ROI)
  represented by movable, sizable boxes atop the image.  Inside a ROI, the
  program can find the distance between two edges, the area of a shape,
  the thickness of a wall, etc.  Image Analyst finds the center, edge and
  other positions automatically. The application also provides tools so
  that the user can work interactively to find the edge of object. It also
  supports histograms and a color look-up table (CLUT) tool.

  Automatix, Inc. 775 Middlesex Turnpike Billerica, MA 01821 508-667-7900

IPLab
-----
  Signal Analytics Corp. 374 Maple Ave. E Vienna, VA  22180 703-281-3277
  FAX 703-281-2509

  "Menu-driven image processing software that supports 24-bit color or
  pseudocolor/grayscale image display and manipulation."

MAP II
------
  Among the Mac GIS systems, MAP II distributed by John Wiley has
  integrated image analysis.

IMAGE
-----
  from Stanford : Try anonymous ftp from sumex-aim.stanford.edu
  It has pd source for image v2, and ready to run code for a mac under
  image v3.

Windows/DOS PC-based tools
==========================

CCD
---
  Richard Berry's CCD imaging book for Willamon-Bell contains (optional?)
  disks with image manipulating software.  Source code is included.

ERDAS
-----
  "ERDAS will do all of the things you want:  rectification,
  classification, transformations (canned & user-defined), overlays,
  filters, contrast enhancement, etc. ... I was using it on my thesis &
  then changed the topic a bit & that work became secondary."

  ERDAS, Inc. 2801 Buford Highway Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30329 404-248-9000
  FAX   404-248-9400

RSVGA
-----
  "I have been getting up to speed on a program called RSVGA available from
  Eidetic Digital Image Ltd. in British Columbia.  Its for IBM PC's or
  clones, cheap (about $400) and does all the stuff Erdas does but is not
  as fast or as powerful, though I have had only limited experience with
  Erdas.  I have used RSVGA with 6 of 7 Landsat bands and it is a good
  starter program except for the obtuse manual"

IMAGINE-32
  It's a 32 bit package [I suppose for PCs] called "Imagine32"
  or "Image32" The program does a modest amount of image processing --add,
  subtract, multiply, divide, display, and plot an x or y cut across the image.
  It can also display a number of images simultaneously.
  The company is CompuScope, in Santa Barbara, CA. 

PC Vista
--------
  It was announced in the 1989 August edition of PASP.  It is known to
  be available from Mike Richmond, whose email addresses have been

	richmond@bllac.berkeley.edu
	richmond@bkyast.berkeley.edu

  and his s-mail address is:

  Michael Richmond,Astronomy Department, Campbell Hall, Berkeley, CA 94720

  The latest version of PC-Vista, version 1.7, includes not only the source
  code and help files, but also a complete set of executable programs and
  a number of sample FITS images. If you do wish to use the source code,
  you will need Microsoft C, version 5.0 or later; other compilers may work,
  but will require substantial modifications.

  To receive the documentation and nine double-density (360K) floppies
  (or three quad-density 3-1/2 inch floppies (1.44M) with everything on them,
  just send a request for PC-Vista, together with your name and a US-Mail
  address, to 

	Office of Technology Licensing
	2150 Shattuck Ave., Suite 510
	Berkeley, Ca. 94704

  Include a check (Traveller's Checks are fine) or purchase order for $150.00
  in U.S. dollars, if your address is inside the continental U.S., or $165.00
  otherwise, made out to Regents of the University of California
  to cover duplication and mailing costs.

SOFTWARE TOOLS
  It's a set of software "tools" put out by Canyon State
  Systems and Software. They are not free, but rather cheap at about $30 I
  heard. It will handle most all of the formats used by frame grabber
  software. 

MIRAGE
------
  It's image processing software written by Jim Gunn at the
  Astrophysics Dept at Princeton. It will run on a PC among other platforms.
  It is a Forth based system - i.e. a Forth language with many image
  processing displaying functions built in. 

DATA TRANSLATION SOURCE BOOK
  The Data Translation company in Massachusetts publishes a free book
  containing vendors of data analysis hardware and software which is
  compatible with Data Translation and other frame grabbers.
  Surely you can find much more PC-related stuff in it.

MAXEN386
--------
  A couple of Canadians have written a program named MAXEN386 which does
  maximum entropy image deconvolution. Their company is named Digital
  Signal Processing Software, or something like that, and the software is
  mentioned in an article in Astronomy Magazine, either Jan or Feb 92
  (an article on CCD's vs film). 

JANDEL SCIENTIFIC (JAVA)
  Another software package (JAVA) is put out by Jandel Scientific. 
  Jandel Scientific, 65 Koch Road, Corte Madera, CA 94925, (415) 924-8640,
  (800) 874-1888.

Microbrian
  Runs on an MS dos platform and uses a 32 bit graphics card
  (Vista), or an about to be released version will support a number of
  super VGA cards.  Its a full blown remote sensed data processing
  system.. It is menu driven (character based screen), but is does not use
  a windowed user interface. Its is hardware protected with a dongle.
  Mbrian = micro Barrier reef Image Anaysis System. It was developed by
  CSIRO (Commonwealth Scientific & Industrial Organization) and is
  marketed/ supported by:

  MPA Australia (51 Lusher Road, Croydon, Victoria
  tel + 61 3 724 4488     fax  +61 3 724 4455)

  There are educational and commercial prices, but be prepared to set
  aside $A10k for the first educational licence.  Subsequent ones come
  cheaper (they need to!) It has installed sites worldwide.  It is widely
  used at ANU.

MicroImage
  The remote sensing lab here at Dartmouth currently uses Terra-Mar's
  MicroImage, on 486 PCs with some fancy display hardware.

  Terra-Mar Resource Information Services, Inc.

  1937 Landings Drive Mountain View, CA  94043 415-964-6900   FAX
  415-964-5430

Unix-based tools

IRAF (Image Reduction and Analysis Facility)
--------------------------------------------
  Developed in the National Optical Astronomy Observatory, Kitt Peak AZ
  It is free, you can ftp it from tucana.noao.edu [140.252.1.1]
  and complement it with STSDAS from stsci.edu [130.167.1.2].
  Email to iraf@noao.edu for more details.
  Apparently this is one of the _de facto_ standards in the astronomical
  image community. They issue a newsletter also.
  They seem to support very well their users. Works with VMS also last
  I heard, and practically has its own shell on top of the VMS/Unix shells.

  It's suggested that you get a copy of saoimage for display under X windows.
  Very flexible/extendable  -- tons (literally 3 linear feet) of
  documentation for the general user, skilled user, and programmer.

ALV
---
  A Sun-specific image toolkit.  Version 2.0.6 posted to
  comp.sources.sun on 11dec89.  Also available via email to
  alv-users-request@cs.bris.ac.uk.

AIPS
----
  Astronomical Image Processing System.  Contact: aipsmail@nrao.edu
  (also see the UseNet Newsgroups alt.sci.astro.aips and sci.astro.fits)
  Built by NRAO (National Radio Astronomy Observatory, HQ in Charlottesville,
  VA, sites in NM, AZ, WV).  Software distributed by 9-track, Exabyte, DAT,
  or (non-anonymous) internet ftp.  Documentation (PostScript mostly)
  available via anonymous ftp to baboon.cv.nrao.edu (192.33.115.103),
  directory pub/aips and pub/aips/TEXT/PUBL.  Installation requires building
  the system and thus a Fortran and C compiler.
     This package can read and write FITS data (see sci.astro.fits), and is
  primarily for reduction, analysis, and image enhancement of Radio Astronomy
  data from radio telescopes, particularly the Very Large Array (VLA), a
  synthesis instrument.  It consists of almost 300 programs that do everything
  from copying data to sophisticated deconvolution, e.g. via maximum entropy.
  There is an X11-based Image tool (XAS) and a tek-compatible xterm-based
  graphics tool built into AIPS.  The XAS tool is modelled after the hardware
  functionality of the International Imaging Systems model 70 display unit and
  can do image arithmetic, etc.
    The code is mostly Fortran 77 with some system C language modules, and is
  available for Suns, IBM RS/6000, Dec/Ultrix, Convex, Cray (Unicos), and
  Alliant with support planned for HP-9000/7xx, Solaris 2.1, and maybe SGI.
     There is currently a project - "AIPS++" - underway to rewrite the
  algorithmic functionality of AIPS in a modern setting, using C++ and an
  object oriented approach.  Whereas AIPS is proprietary code (licensed for
  free to non-profit institutions) owner by NRAO and the NSF, AIPS++ will be
  in the public domain at some level, as it is an international effort with
  contributions from the US, Canada, England, the Netherlands, India, and
  Australia to name a few. 

LABOimage
---------
  (version 4.0 is out for X11) It's written in C, and currently
  runs on Sun 3/xxx, Sun 4/xxx (OS3.5, 4.0 and 4.0.3) under SunView.
  The expert system for image segmentation is written in Allegro Common Lisp.
  It was used on the following domains: computer science (image analysis), 
  medicine, biology, physics. It is distributed free of charge (source code).
  Available via anonymous FTP at ftp.ads.com (128.229.30.16), in
  pub/VISION-LIST-ARCHIVE/SHAREWARE/LaboImage_*

  Contact: Prof. Thierry Pun, Computer Vision Group Computing Science Center,
  U-Geneva 12, rue du Lac, CH-1207 Geneva SWITZERLAND
  Phone : +41(22) 787 65 82; fax: +41(22) 735 39 05
  E-mail: pun@cui.unige.ch  or pun@cgeuge51.bitnet

Figaro
------
  It was originally made for VMS, and can be obtained from
  Keith Shortridge in Australia (ks@aaoepp.aao.gov.au)
  and for Unix from Sam Southard at Caltech (sns@deimos.caltech.edu).
  It's about 110Mbytes on a Sun.

KHOROS
------
  Moved to the Scientific  Visualization category below

Vista
-----
  The "real thing" is available via anonymous ftp from lowell.edu. Email to
  vista@lowell.edu for more details. Total size less than 20Mbytes.

DISIMP
------
  (Device Independent Software for Image Processing) is a powerful
  system providing both user friendliness and high functionality in
  interactive times.

  Feature Description

  DISIMP incorporates a rich library of image processing utilities and
  spatial data options. All functions can be easily accessed via the
  DISIMP executive. This menu is modular in design and groups image
  processes by their function. Such a logical structure means that
  complicated processes are simply a progression through a series of
  modules.

  Processes include image rectification, classification (unsupervised and
  supervised), intensity transformations, three dimensional display and
  Principal Component Analysis. DISIMP also supports the more simple and
  effective enhancement techniques of filtering, band subtraction and
  ratioing.

  Host Configuration Requirements

  Running on UNIX workstations, DISIMP is capable of processing the more
  computational intensive techniques in interactive processing times.
  DISIMP is available in both Runtime and Programmer's environments. Using
  the Programmers environment, utilities can be developed for specific
  applications programs.

  Graphics are governed by an icon-based Display Panel which allows quick
  enhancments of a displayed image. Manipulations of Look Up Tables,
  colour stretches, changes to histograms, zooming and panning can be
  interactively driven through this control.

  A range of geographic projections enables DISIMP to integrate data of
  image, graphic and textual types. Images can be rectified by a number of
  coordinate systems, providing the true geographic knowledge essential
  for ground truthing. Overlays of grids, text and vector data can be
  added to further enhance referenced imagery.

  The system is a flexible package allowing users of various skill levels
  to determine their own working environment, including the amount of help
  required. DISIMP comes fully configured with no optional extras. The
  purchase price includes all functionality required for professional
  processing of remote sensed data.

  For further information, please contact:

  The Business Manager, CLOUGH Engineering Group Systems Division, 627
  Chapel Street, South Yarra, Australia 3141. Telephone:  +61 3 825 5555
  Fax:  +61 3 826 6463

Global Imaging Software
  "We use Global Imaging Software to process AVHRR data, from the dish to
  the final display. Select a chunk of five band data from a pass,
  automatic navigation, calibrate it to Albedo and Temp, convert that to
  byte, register it to predesigned window, all relatively automatically
  and carefree.

  It has no classification routines to speak of, but it isn't that
  difficult to write your own with their programmer's module.

  Very small operation: one designs, one codes, one sells. Been around for
  a number of years, sold to Weather Service and Navy.  Runs on HP9000
  with HP-UX.  Supports 24-bit display"

HIPS
----
(Human   Information   Processing Laboratory's Image Processing System)

  Michael Landy co-wrote and sell a general-purpose package for image
  processing which has been used for basically all the usual image
  processing applications (robotics, medical, satellite, engineering, oil
  exploration, etc.).  It is called HIPS, and deals with sequences of
  multiband images in the same way it deals with single images.  It has
  been growing since we first wrote it, both by additions from us as well
  as a huge user-contributed library.

  Feature description

  HIPS  is  a  set  of  image  processing  modules  which together provide
  a  powerful  suite  of  tools  for  those interested in research,
  system  development  and  teaching. It  handles  sequences  of  images
  (movies)  in precisely the same manner as single frames.

  Programs and subroutines have been developed  for simple image
  transformations, filtering, convolution, Fourier and other transform
  processing, edge detection  and line  drawing   manipulation, digital
  image compression and transmission  methods, noise generation, and image
  statistics computation. Over 150 such  image transformation programs
  have been developed.  As a result, almost any image processing  task
  can be performed quickly and conveniently. Additionally, HIPS allows
  users to easily integrate  their  own custom  routines.   New users
  become effective using HIPS on their first day.

  HIPS features images that are  self-documenting.   Each image stored  in
  the  system  contains  a  history  of the transformations that have been
  applied to that image.   HIPS includes  a  small  set of subroutines
  which primarily deals with a standardized  image sequence  header,  and
  a  large library  of  image  transformation tools in the form of UNIX
  ``filters''.  It comes complete with source  code,  on-line manual
  pages, and on-line documentation.

  Originally  developed at  New  York  University,  HIPS  now represents
  one of the most extensive and flexible vision and image  processing
  environments currently available.  It runs under the UNIX operating
  system.  It is modular  and  flexible, provides automatic documentation
  of its actions, and is almost entirely independent of special equipment.
  HIPS is now in use on a variety of computers including Vax and
  Microvax, Sun, Apollo,  Masscomp,  NCR Tower, Iris, IBM AT, etc.
  For image display and input, drivers are supplied for the Grinnell and
  Adage (Ikonas) image processors, and the Sun-2, Sun-3, Sun- 4, and
  Sun-386i consoles.  We also  supply  user-contributed drivers  for  a
  number of  other framestores and windowing packages (Sun gfx, Sun
  console, Matrox VIP-1024, ITI IP-512, Lexidata,  Macintosh II, X
  windowing system, and Iris).  The Hipsaddon package includes an
  interface  for the  CRS-4000. It  is  a  simple matter to interface HIPS
  with other frame- stores, and we can put interested users in touch with
  users who  have interfaced HIPS with the Arlunya and Datacube Max-
  Video. HIPS can be easily adapted for other  image  display devices
  because 98% of HIPS is machine independent.

  Availability

  HIPS has proven itself a highly flexible  system,  both as  an
  interactive  research tool, and for more production- oriented tasks. It
  is both easy to use, and quickly adapted and extended to new uses. HIPS
  is supplied on magnetic tape in UNIX tar format (either reel- to-reel or
  Sun  cartridge), and comes with source code, libraries, a library of
  convolu- tion masks, and on-line documentation and manual pages.

  Michael Landy SharpImage Software P.O. Box 373, Prince Street Station
  New York, NY   10012-0007 Voice:  (212) 998-7857 Fax: (212) 995-4011
  msl@cns.nyu.edu

MIRA
----
[ Please DON'T confuse that with the Thalmanns animation system from
  Montreal. These are altogether different beasts! - nfotis ]

  MIRA stands for Microcomputer Image Reduction and Analysis.  MIRA gives
  workstation level performance on 386/486 DOS computers using SVGA cards in
  256 color modes up to 1024x768. MIRA contains a very handsome/functional
  GUI which is mouse and keystroke operated. MIRA reads/writes TIFF and FITS
  formats, native formats of a number of CCD cameras, and uncompressed binary
  images in byte, short integer, and 4-byte real pixel format in 1- or 2-
  dimensions. The result of an image processing operation can be short integer
  or real pixels, or the same as that of the input image. MIRA does the
  operation using short or floating point arithmetic to maintain the precision
  and accuracy of the pixel format. Over 100 functions are hand-coded in
  assembly language for maximum speed on the Intel hardware.  The entire
  graphical interface is also written in assembly language to maximize
  the speed of windowing operations.  Windows for 2-d image and 1-d image/data
  display and analysis have dedicated cursors which read position and value
  value in real time as you move the mouse.  There are also smooth, real time
  contrast and brightness stretch and panning of a magnified portion of
  the displayed image(s), all operated by the mouse. A wide selection of
  grayscale, pseudocolor, and random palettes is provided, and other 
  palettes can be generated.

Supported functions include such niceties as the following:

o  image & image: + - / * interpolation
o  image & constant: + - / *
o  unary operations: abs value, polynomial of pixel value, chs, 1/x, log,
   byteswap, clip values at upper/lower limits, short->real or real->short.
o  combine images by mean, median, mode, or sum of pixel values, with or
   without autoscaling to mean, median, or mode of an image section.
o  convolutions/filters: Laplacian, Sobel edge operator, directional gradient,
   line, Gaussian, elliptical and rectangular equal weight filters, unsharp
   masking, median filters, user defined filter kernel.  Ellipse, rectangle,
   line, gradient, Gaussian, and user defined filters can be rotated to
   any specified angle.
o  CCD data reduction: flat fielding, dark subtraction, column over/underscan
   bias removal, remove bad pixels and column defects, normalize to
   region target mean, median, or modal value.
o  create subimage, mosaic m x n 1-d or 2-d images to get larger image,
   collapse 2-d image into 1-d image.
o  plot 1-d section or collapsed section of 2-d image, plot histogram of
   region of an image.
o  review/change image information/header data, rename keywords, plot
   keyword values for a set of images.
o  luminance/photometry: elliptical or circular aperture photometry,
   brightness profile, isophotal photometry between set of upper & lower
   luminances, area and luminance inside traced polygon. Interactive
   background fitting and removal from part or all of image, fit elliptical
   aperture shape to image isophotes. 
o  interactive with 2-d image: contrast/brightness, x- y- or diagonal plot
   of pixel values, distance between two points, compute region stats,`
   centroid, pan to x,y location or image center, zoom 1/16 to 10 times,
   change cursor to rectangle crosshair, full image crosshair, or off, and
   adjust cursor size on image. Select linear, log or gamma transfer function
   or histogram equalization.
o  interactive or specified image offset computation and re-sampling for
   registration.
o  interactive with 1-d image: zoom in x- y- or both in steps of 1/2 or
   2 times current, re-center plot, or enlarge a framed area. 4 plot buffers
   can be cycled through. Interactive data analysis: polynomial fitting,
   point deletion, undelete, change value, point weighting, linear and
   quadratic loess and binomial smoothing, revert to unit point weights
   or original data buffer, substitute results into data buffer for pass
   back to calling function. Dump data buffer (+ overlays and error bars)
   to file or printer.  Change to user specified coordinate system.
o  Tricolor image combination and display, hardcopy halftone printout to
   HP-PCL compatible printers (Laserjet, deskjet, etc.)
o  Documentation is over 300 pages in custom vinyl binder.

  Cost: 995 $USD/copy

  Available from:

  Axiom Research, Inc.
  Box 44162
  Tucson, AZ  85733
  (602) 791-2864  phone/fax.

  international marketing rep: Saguaro Scientific Corporation, Tucson, Arizona.

End of Part 2 of the Resource Listing

Hitherto have ye asked nothing
	in my name:
	ask, and ye shall receive,
	that your joy may be full.

One thing I think is interesting about alt.athiesm is the fact that
without bible-thumpers and their ilk this would be a much duller newsgroup.
It almost needs the deluded masses to write silly things for athiests to
tear apart. Oh well, that little tidbit aside here is what I really wanted
write about.

      How can anyone believe in such a sorry document as the bible? If you
want to be religious aren't there more plausable books out there? Seriously,
the bible was written by multiple authors who repeatedly contradict each
other. One minute it tells you to kill your kid if he talks back and the next
it says not to kill at all. I think that if xtians really want to follow a
deity they should pick one that can be consistent, unlike the last one they
invented.

      For people who say Jesus was the son of god, didn't god say not to
EVER put ANYONE else before him? Looks like you did just that. Didn't god
say not to make any symbols or idols? What are crosses then? Don't you think
that if you do in fact believe in the bible that you are rather far off track?

Was Jesus illiterate? Why didn't he write anything? Anyone know?

      I honestly hope that people who believe in the bible understand that
it is just one of the religious texts out there and that it is one of the
poorer quality ones to boot. The only reason xtianity escaped the middle east
is because a certain roman who's wine was poisoned with lead made all of rome
xtian after a bad dream.

      If this posting keeps one person, just ONE person, from standing on a
streetcorner and telling people they are going to hell I will be happy.

..stuff deleted...
...more stuff deleted...

Hmm, USENET got it's collective hooks into me around 1987 or so right after I
switched to engineering.  I'd say I started reading alt.atheism around 1988-89.
I've probably not posted more than 50 messages in the time since then though.
I'll never understand how people can find the time to write so much.  I
can barely keep up as it is.

I have the need for displaying 2 1/2 D surfaces under X, using only
Xlib, Xt and Xm.  Does anyone know of a package, available on internet,
which will be able to do the work?

   I am looking for a STAND-ALONE package providing similar functions
to "xprism3" available with Khoros, but without the numerous libraries
required for it.  I want to be able to recompile it and run it on
various platforms, from SGIs to i486s (UNIX).

   Any help will be appreciated.

Hello, and thank you for reading this request.  I have a Mpeg viewer for x-windows and it did not run because I was running it on a monochrome monitor.  I need the mono-driver for mpeg_play.   

KS, I see you're wanting Malcolm's response. Allow me one last inter-
jection then please:

Distinguishing among the religious Jews, you've excepted the Messianic
for obvious reasons. Specifically, are you saying it's these religious 
Jews, who trace their lineage back to Abraham by blood and orthodoxy, 
rather than by faith, who won't agree?  Orthodox Jews?  

As to the a/a (if I understand your direction), the issue remains 
unproven I suspect, considering how atheists and agnostics so often 
look to reason. Atheist, it is reasonable to conclude will not agree.
For agnostics, a poll seems in order. Who knows?  Myself, I'm not so 
sure the atheists can be counted out. 

For the orthodox, I wonder how many would follow Moses, or Abraham,
or David in accepting God's Word? Is the particular covenant to which
one adheres, more important than God promisimg? I reckon for many it
depends on the ongoing dialogue. Under these considerations, you might 
understand why I think it's premature to assert who will and won't agree.

This sounds a bit high to me.  Still higher accelerations have been endured
*very briefly*, during violent deceleration.  If we're talking sustained
acceleration, I think 30-odd gees has been demonstrated using water immersion.

I doubt that any of this generalizes to another order of magnitude.

Called "gas".

The balloons were in sufficiently low orbit that they experienced
some air resistance.  When they were finally punctured, this 
preasure (and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain
a spherical shape against this resistance) caused them to
catastrophically deflated.  The large silvered shards
that remained were easily visible for some time before
reentry, though no longer useful as a passive transponder.

This sounds like another of Ali AbuTaha's 57 different "real causes" of
the Challenger accident.  As far as I know, there has never been the
slightest shred of evidence for a "harmonic resonance" having occurred.

The windshear-induced maneuvering probably *did* contribute to opening
up the leak path in the SRB joint again -- it seems to have sealed itself
after the puffs of smoke during liftoff -- but the existing explanation
of this and related events seems to account for the evidence adequately.

False dichotomy.  You claimed the killing were *not* religiously
motivated, and I'm saying that's wrong.   I'm not saying that
each and every killing is religiously motivate, as I spelled out
in detail.

Does anyone else see the contradiction in this paragraph?

Sorry, Frank, but what I put in quotes is your own words from your
posting <1qi83b$ec4@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>.  Don't tell us now that 
it's a different claim.   If you can no longer stand behind your 
original claim, just say so.

I apologize for the long delay in getting a response to this posted.
I've been working reduced hours the past couple of weeks because I had
a son born (the day after Umar's article was posted, btw).  I did
respond within a couple of days, but it turns out that a a
coincidental news software rearrangement caused postings from this
site to silently disappear rather than going out into the world.  This
is a revision of that original response.

[this was in response to the claim that "Rushdie made false statements
about the life of Mohammed", with the disclaimer "(fiction, I know,
but where is the line between fact and fiction?) - I stand by this
distinction between fiction and "false statements"]

I had not seen that claim, or I might have been less sweeping.  You
have made what I consider factual misstatements about events in the
book, which I have raised in the past, in the "ISLAM: a clearer view"
thread as well as the root of the "Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]"
thread.  My statement was not that you had not read the book, but that
you had not convinced me that you [inter alia] had.  As I said before,
if you want to defend your position, then produce evidence, and
respond to the evidence I have posted; so far you have not.  Of
course, my statement was not directly aimed at you, but broadly at a
number of Muslim posters who have repeated propaganda about the book,
indicating that they haven't read it, and narrowly at Gregg Jaeger,
who subsequently admitted that he hadn't in fact read the book,
vindicating my skepticism in at least that one case.

So far, the only things I have to go on regarding your own case are a)
the statements you made concerning the book in the "a clearer view"
posting, which I have challenged (not interpretation, but statements
of fact, for instance "Rushdie depicts the women of the most
respected family in all of Islam as whores"), and b) your claim (which
I had not seen before this) that you have indeed read it cover to
cover.  I am willing to try to resolve this down to a disagreement on
critical interpretation, but you'll have to support your end, by
responding to my criticism.  I have no doubt as to the ability of a
particular Muslim to go through this book with a highlighter finding
passages to take personal offense at, but you have upheld the view
that "TSV *is* intended as an attack on Islam and upon Muslims".  This
view must be defended by more than mere assertion, if you want anyone
to take it seriously.

And I appreciate it, but welcome to the club.  I am defending my
honest opinion that this book should not be construed as a calculated
(or otherwise) insulting attack on Islam, and the parallel opinion
that most of the criticism of the book I have seen is baseless
propaganda.  I have supported my statements and critical
interpretationa with in-context quotes from the book and Rushdie's
essays, which is more than my correspondents have done.  Of course,
you are more than welcome to do so.

I am looking for some information of hidden line removal using Roberts
algorithm.  Something with code, or pseudo code would be especially
helpful.

I am required to do this for a class, due Monday (we have very little
time to implement these changes, it is a VERY FAST paced class).  The
notes given in class leave a LOT to be desired, so I would vastly
appreciate any help.

Actually any algorithm would be nice (Roberts or no).  The main problem
is two objects intersecting in x and y dimensions, need to know which
lines to clip off so that one object will appear in front of another.

If you can give me an ftp address and filename, or even the name of a
good book, I'd REALLY appreciate it.

 Are you using the traditional radiosity method, progressive refinement, or
  something else in your package?

 If you need to project patches on the hemi-cube surfaces, what technique are
  you using?  Do you have hardware to facilitate the projection?

  What are the guest username and password for this ftp site?

   Thanks, Stephan.

Stuff deleted 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.............................................         
I can put the same question to followers of any religion. How do you
Moslems resolve differences of opinion ?? Don't tell me that there
is one interpretation of the Quran. Read the soc.culture.* newsgroups.
You will zillions of different interpretations.

-- Naren
naren@TEKIG1.PEN.TEK.COM 

My first thought is Ross Perot.  After further consideration, I think he'd
be more likely to try to win it...but come in a disappointing third.

Try Bill Gates.  Try Sam Walton's kids.

Matt

You have demanded harsh punishments of several crimes. Repeating
offenders have slipped in only as justification of harsh punishment at
all. Typically religious doublespeak. Whenever you have contradictory
statements you choose the possibility that suits your current argument.
 
It is disgusting that someone with ideas that would make Theodore KKKaldis
feel cozy can go along under the protection of religion.

What kind of polygons?  Shaded?  Texturemapped?  Hm?  More comes into play with
fast routines than just "polygons".  It would be nice to know exaclty what
system (VGA is a start, but what processor?) and a few of the specifics of the
implementation.  You need to give  more info if you want to get any answers! :P

wing the suggestion of Stu Lynne, I have posted the Image File Format executable and source code to alt.sources.

Dennis, I'm astounded. I didn't know you were interested to even
study such filth as alt.sex.stories provide...

Cheers,
Kent

Does ANYONE out there in Net-land have any information on the Cobra 2.20 
card?  The sticker on the end of the card reads
        Model: Cobra 1-B-1
        Bios:  Cobra v2.20

I Havn't been able to find anything about it from anyone!  If you have 
any information on how to get a hold of the company which produces the 
card or know where any drivers are for it, PLEASE let me know!

As far as I can tell, it's a CGA card that is taking up 2 of my 16-bit 
ISA slots but when I enable the test patterns, it displays much more than 
the usualy 4 CGA colors... At least 16 from what I can count.. Thanks!

              .------------------------------------------.
              : Internet: jele@eis.calstate.edu          :
              :           bbs.mirage@gilligan.tsoft.net  :
              :           bbs.mirage@tsoft.sf-bay.org    :
              :           mirage@thetech.com             :
              : UUCP    : apple.com!tsoft!bbs.mirage     :
              `------------------------------------------'

That's okay:  it's what all the rest of them who come on here say...

This isn't the guy who was a lawyer was he?  Could you give more info on this
guy (never mind- I'm sure there will be PLENTY of responses to this post, and
it will appear there)

This is true.  Make sure it is true for ALL cases.
  
Why not both?  ;)
 
Why not die for a lie?  If you were poverty stricken and alunatic, sounds
perfecetly reasoable to me.  As to whether the societal dregs he had for
followers would be able to tell if he was a liar or not, not necessarily.
Even if he died for what he believed in, this still makes him completely
selfish.  Like us all.  So what's the difference.

People 

There is no historical proof of this (see earlier threads).  Besides, he (or at
least his name), have been the cause of enough deaths to make up for whatever
healing he gave.

SIEG HEIL!!

Who is David Koresh?  I am curious.

 	Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the 

How does this follow?  Your definition of lunatic (and "disproof" thereof seem
rather... uhhh.. SHAKY)

Good idea.

Naturally, those or not TRUE Christians, right?  ;)

Someone else handle this, I don't know if it's worth it... *sigh*

Hello netters

Sorry, I don't know if this is the right way of doing this kind of thing,
probably should be a CFV, but since I don't have tha ability to create a 
news group myself, I just want to start the discussion. 

I enjoy reading c.g very much, but I often find it difficult to sort out what
I'm interested in. Everything from screen-drivers, graphics cards, graphics
programming and graphics programs are discused here. What I'd like is a 
comp.graphics.programmer news group.
What do you other think.

This claim was made when someone spotted training film footage spliced into
the footage of the actual spacewalk.

Some VESA bios's support this mode (0x100).  And *any* VGA should be able to
support this (640x480 by 256 colors) since it only requires 256,000 bytes.
My 8514/a VESA TSR supports this; it's the only VESA mode by card can support
due to 8514/a restrictions. (A WD/Paradise)

I have the "osculating elements at perigee" of an orbit, which I need
to convert to something useful, preferably distance from the earth
in evenly spaced time intervals. A GSM coordinate system is preferable,
but I convert from other systems. C, pascal, or fortran code, or
if you can point me to a book or something that'd be great.

here's the first few lines of the file.

0  ()
1  (2X, A3, 7X, A30)
2  (2X, I5, 2X, A3, 2X, E24.18)
3  (4X, A3, 7X, E24.18)
1  SMA       SEMI-MAJOR AXIS
1  ECC       ECCENTRICITY
1  INC       INCLINATION
1  OMG       RA OF ASCENDING NODE
1  POM       ARGUMENT OF PERICENTRE
1  TRA       TRUE ANOMALY
1  HAP       APOCENTRE HEIGHT
1  HPE       PERICENTRE HEIGHT
2      3  BEG  0.167290000000000000E+05
3    SMA       0.829159999999995925E+05
3    ECC       0.692307999999998591E+00
3    INC       0.899999999999999858E+02
3    OMG       0.184369999999999994E+03
3    POM       0.336549999999999955E+03
3    TRA       0.359999999999999943E+03
3    HAP       0.133941270127999174E+06
3    HPE       0.191344498719999910E+05
2      1  REF  0.167317532658774153E+05
3    SMA       0.829125167527418671E+05
3    ECC       0.691472268118590319E+00
3    INC       0.899596754214342091E+02
3    OMG       0.184377521828175002E+03
3    POM       0.336683788851850579E+03
3    TRA       0.153847166458030088E-05
3    HAP       0.133866082767180880E+06
3    HPE       0.192026707383028306E+05

Please define the words "shatim" and "fasad" before you use them again.

This activity is regularly reported in Ron's interesting posts. Could
someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is?

Thanks, Alan

Comet P/Helin-Roman-Crockett also spent some time as a temporary
satellite to Jupiter a few years ago if you believe the calculations
by Tancredi, G., Lindgren, M. and  Rickman, H.(Astron. Astrophys., 
239, pp. 375-380, 1990).
-- 

   Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation 
   who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a
   year. 

And with $1B on offer, the problem of "keeping them alive" is highly
likely to involve more than just the lunar environment! 

"Oh Dear, my freighter just landed on the roof of ACME's base and they
all died.  How sad.  Gosh, that leaves us as the oldest residents."

"Quick Boss, the slime from YoyoDyne are back, and this time they've
got a tank!  Man the guns!"

One could imagine all sorts of technologies being developed in that
sort of environment.....

Greg.

(I'm kidding, BTW, although the problem of winner-takes-all prizes is
that it encourages all sorts of undesirable behaviour - witness
military procurement programs.  And $1b is probably far too small a
reward to encourage what would be a very expensive and high risk
proposition.)

Well, I've said that when an innocent person has been executed, this is
objectively a murder.  However, who is at blame is another question.
It seems that the entire society that sanctions any sorts of executions--
realizing the risks--is to blame.

Yes, but there is also a probablity that you will kill someone doing
any raondom activity.  Presumably, you had not isolated yourself totally
from the rest of society because of this.

And I argue that our law system is a similar risk.  Perhaps an innocent
person will be punished someday, but we work to prevent this.  In fact,
many criminals go free as a result of our trying to prevent punishment
of innocents.

But, such accidents are to be totally expected, given the numner of vehicals
on the road.  Again, the blame is on society.

Yes, but the state is not at fault in such a case.  The state can only do
so much to prevent false witnesses.

Okay, so this is what you call murder.  But, the question is whether or not
all such "murders" are wrong.  Are you saying that all taking of human life
is wrong, no matter what the circumstances?

But, this is basically how it works.  Society accepts the risk that an
innocent person will be murdered by execution.  And, every member of
society shares this blame.  And, most people's definitions of murder
include some sort of malicious intent, which is not involved in an
execution, is it?

Murder violates the golden rule.  Executions do not, because by allowing
it at all, society implicitly accepts the consequences no matter who the
innocent victim is.

Reading the minds of the jury would certainly tell whether or not a conviction
was moral or not.  But, in an objective system, only the absolute truth
matters, and the jury system is one method to approximate such a truth.  That
is, twelve members must be convinced of a truth.

But then, if we read the minds of these people, we would know that the
conviction was unfair.

Yes, while we could objectively determine the difference (if we knew all
possible information), we can't always determine the difference in our
flawed system.  I think that our system is almost as good as possible,
but it still isn't objectively perfect.  You see, it doesn't matter if
we *know* it is fair or not.  Objectively, it is either fair or it is not.

But what we know has no effect on an objective system.

Why are you so sure?

Why is *your* reality important?

But, we can assume that the system is fairly decent, at least most likely.
And, you realize that the correctness of our system says nothing about a
totally ideal and objective system.

Well, we can have an ideal system, but the working system can not be ideal.
We can only hope to create a system that is as close an approximation to
the ideal system as possible.

Yes, we all bear the responsibility.  Most people seem willing to do this.

We must realize the consequences of all our actions.  Why do you keep
separating the justice system from the pack?

I don't think our country has an objective system, but I think such an
objective system can exist, in theory.  Without omniscience, an objective
system is not possible in practice.

Absolutely. Lewis didn't care for the 1921 O.T.O. charter from Reuss. He had
in mind something completely diferent. Crowley and Lewis were very
different persons, as you probably know.

No. My overstatement, sorry :-)

	Cannot? Try, will not.

---

Kermit Tensmeyer quoted from a few sources and then wrote something.
I will attempt to construct a facsimile of what was previously said, and 
then address Kermit's offering.

John Redelfs originally wrote...

  jr> I learned that a man cannot frustrate justice by repenting on his
  jr> death bed because repentance is more than a feeling of remorse.  It
  jr> requires faith in Christ proven by following him, by keeping his
  jr> commandments.  Such cannot be accomplished on ones deathbed.

Tom Albrecht responded...

  ta> So Jesus must have lied to the thief on the cross.

John Redelfs wrote back that...

  jr> Paradise and salvation are not the same thing.  Salvation is better.
  jr> Refer to John 14:2.

I responded to John that...

  rw>    I don't see the effort to equate salvation with paradise.
  rw>
  rw>    Rather, I see implied the fact that only those who are saved
  rw> may enter paradise.

To which Kermit wrote...

kt> Incomplete reference:
kt>
kt> See also the discussion: Did Jesus go into Hell in the BibleStudy group
kt> for the arguments that Paradise and Hell(sheol) are places after death
kt> The discussion (no LDS were involved as far as I could see) argued using
kt> standard Christian argument from the Bible that pretty much support the
kt> LDS position.
kt>
kt>    Christ went to paridise after his death and burial.
kt>
kt>    He taught the prisoners and freed them from Darkness.
kt>
kt>    When he was resurrected, he had not yet ascended to his father.
kt>
kt> The arguement centered around what was or wasn't the proper biblical
kt> terms for those places.

     I respond.

     The question that was raised was not if Jesus went to infernal Paradise
     before entering into heaven. No one has made a point for or against 
     that issue, nor have they compared the LDS position against orthodox
     belief. The infernal paradise is held to be Abraham's bosom (Luke 16), 
     the place of the righteous dead in sheol (equivalent to hades).

     The point that was raised by John was that someone could not repent
     on their death bed. Tom Albrecht pointed to a Biblical example that was
     contradictory to what John's position put forward. The thief on the 
     cross was promised by Christ to be with Him in Paradise, the abode of 
     the righteous dead. John's position possibly needs to be reworked.
     Kermit needs to address the topic at hand.

 (excerpts from posting on this topic) 

(I've seen satellites at midnight - they're not only in twilight.) :o) 

Now my comments: 

I'd like to add that some of the "protests" do not come from a strictly 
practical consideration of what pollution levels are acceptable for 
research activities by professional astronomers.  Some of what I 
would complain about is rooted in aesthetics.  Many readers may 
never have known a time where the heavens were pristine - sacred - 
unsullied by the actions of humans.  The space between the stars 
as profoundly black as an abyss can be.  With full horizons and 
a pure sky one could look out upon half of all creation at a time 
- none of which had any connection with the petty matters of man. 
Any lights were supplied solely by nature; uncorruptable by men.  
Whole religions were based on mortal man somehow getting up there 
and becoming immortal as the stars, whether by apotheosis or a belief 
in an afterlife.  

The Space Age changed all that.  The effect of the first Sputniks 
and Echo, etc. on this view could only happen once.  To see a light 
crossing the night sky and know it was put there by us puny people 
is still impressive and the sense of size one gets by assimilating 
the scales involved is also awesome - even if the few hundreds or 
thousands of miles involved is still dwarfed by the rest of the universe.  
But there is still a hunger for the pure beauty of a virgin sky. 

Yes, I know aircraft are almost always in sight.  I have to live 
in a very populated area (6 miles from an international airport 
currently) where light pollution on the ground is ghastly.  The 
impact of humans is so extreme here - virtually no place exists 
that has not been shaped, sculpted, modified, trashed or whipped 
into shape by the hands of man.  In some places the only life 
forms larger than bacteria are humans, cockroaches, and squirrels 
(or rats).  I visited some friends up in the Appalacian mountains 
one weekend, "getting away from it all" (paved roads, indoor plumbing, 
malls, ...) and it felt good for a while - then I quickly noticed 
the hollow was directly under the main flight path into Dulles - 60-80 
miles to the east.  (Their 'security light' didn't help matters 
much either.)  But I've heard the artic wilderness gets lots of 
high air traffic.  So I know the skies are rarely perfect. 

But there is still this desire to see a place that man hasn't 
fouled in some way.  (I mean they've been TRYING this forever - 
like, concerning Tesla's idea to banish night, - wow!)  I don't watch 
commercial television, but I can imagine just how disgusting beer, 
truck, or hemmorrhoid ointment advertisements would be if seen up so high.  
If ya' gotta make a buck on it (displaying products in heaven), at 
least consider the reactions from those for whom the sky is a last
beautiful refuge from the baseness of modern life.  

To be open about this though, I have here my listing of the passage 
of HST in the evening sky for this weekend - tonight Friday at 
8:25 p.m. EDT it will reach an altitude of 20.1 degrees on the 
local meridian from Baltimore vicinity.  I'll be trying to see it 
if I can - it _is_ my mealticket after all.  So I suppose I could 
be called an elitist for supporting this intrusion on the night sky 
while complaining about billboards proposed by others.  Be that 
as it may, I think my point about a desire for beauty is valid, 
even if it can't ever be perfectly achieved. 

Good question.  I don't have a nice concise answer, though.  What about the
child whose parents are crushed emotionally because he/she starts a carerr
doing something they greatly dislike.  It is the same kind of harm, and
is probably "caused" by the same thing:  The desire of the child to be 
true to his or her self.

What is more important, being true to yourself or burying that truth within
you in order to maintain peace in the family?

hard question, no good answer.

                                 GALILEO
                               POST-LAUNCH
                           April 16 - 22, 1993

1.  On April 19, cruise science Memory Readouts (MROs) were performed for the
properly.

2.  On April 19, a Command Detector Unit Signal-to-Noise Ratio (CDUSNR) test
and a Radio Frequency Subsystem Automatic Gain Control (RFSAGC) test were
performed using the LGA-1 (Low Gain Antenna #1) over DSS-63 (Madrid 70 meter
antenna) and DSS-61 (Madrid 34 meter antenna), respectively.  Data analysis
is in process.  These tests are periodically performed to provide detailed
information relative to the telecom command hardware integrity.

3.  On April 19, a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase.

4.  On April 21, the first of two suppressed carrier/DSN (Deep Space Network)
advanced receiver characterization tests was performed over DSS-14 (Goldstone
70 meter antenna).  The spacecraft modulation index was varied from 43 degrees
to 90 degrees for a range of ground receiver bandwidth settings.

5.  The AC bus imbalance measurement has not exhibited significant change
(greater than 25 DN) throughout this period but the DC bus imbalance
measurement has.  The AC measurement reads 20 DN (4.5 volts).  The DC
measurement has ranged from 43 DN (4.6 volts) to 138 DN (16.2 volts) and
currently reads 138 DN (16.2 volts).  These measurements are consistent with
the model developed by the AC/DC special anomaly team.

6.  The Spacecraft status as of April 22, 1993, is as follows:

       a)  System Power Margin -  68 watts
       d)  Spacecraft Attitude is approximately 21 degrees
           off-sun (lagging) and 5 degrees off-earth (leading)
           Time To Initiation - 184 hours

     As of noon Thursday, April 22, 1993, the Galileo Spacecraft trajectory

	Distance from Earth         169,747,800 km (1.14 AU)
	Distance from Sun           286,967,900 km (1.92 AU)
	Heliocentric Speed          91,200 km per hour
	Distance from Jupiter       532,735,900 km
	Round Trip Light Time       18 minutes, 58 seconds

Hi,

well I have opened up a FTP site for getting the latest software drivers
for Genoa graphics cards.

Here is how to access it:

ftp 192.109.42.11
login:ftp
password:ftp
cd pub/genoa
ls -l
binary
prompt
hash

(now if you wanna have the latest drivers for the 7900 board)

cd 7000series
mget *

quit

This is the sequence to get the drivers.

If you have any further question, please email me.

	Agreed.

--

: In my mind, to say that science has its basis in values is a bit of a
: reach. Science has its basis in observable fact. 

I'd say that what one chooses to observe and how the observation is
interpreted and what significance it's given depends a great deal on
the values of the observer. Science is a human activity and as such,
is subject to the same potential for distortion as any other human
activity. The myth that scientists are above moral influence or
ethical concern, that their knowledge can be abstacted whole and pure
from nature untainted by the biases of the scientist, is nonsense.

Bill

: If one is to argue for objective values (in a moral sense) then one must
: first start by demonstrating that morality itself is objective. Considering
: the meaning of the word "objective" I doubt that this will ever happen.

: So, back to the original question:

: And objective morality is.....?

This may be an unfortunate choice of words, almost self-contradictory.
Objective in the sense used here means something immutable and
absolute while morality describes the behavior of some group of
people. The first term is all inclusive, the second is specific. The
concept supposedly described may have meaning however. 
If there is a God as described by the Christians (for instance), then
He has existence apart from and independent of humankind; His
existence is outside of our frame of reference (reality). If this
being declares a thing to be so, it is -necessarily- so since He has
defined Himself as omnipotent and, if His claims are to be believed,
He is at least omnipotent relative to us. God is intrinsically
self-defined and all reality is whatever He says it is - in an
objective sense.
If God determines a standard of conduct, that standard is objective.
If human beings are held accountable for their conformance to that
standard while permitted to ignore it, they substitute a relative
morality or mode of conduct, giving the term morality a nebulous,
meaningless sense that can be argued about by those pretending to
misunderstand. The standard is objective and the conduct required to
meet that standard is therefore objectively determined.
Just because it is convenient to pretend that the term morality is
infinitely malleable, doesn't mean that the objective standard itself
doesn't exist. Morality has come to mean little more than a cultural
norm, or the preferred conduct of "decent" people, making it seem
subjective, but it is derived from an absolute, objective, standard.
Ironically, this objective standard is in perfect accord with our true
nature (according to Christianity at least), yet is condemned as being
contrary to human nre, oppressive and severe. This may be due as

[questions and issues WRT congress raised and discussed}

Dennis Replies;
...

Dennis, why must you always see things in black and white terms? :-)

-Tommy Mac

Archive-name: atheism/faq
Alt-atheism-archive-name: faq
Version: 1.1

                    Alt.Atheism Frequently-Asked Questions

This file contains responses to articles which occur repeatedly in
alt.atheism.  Points covered here are ones which are not covered in the
"Introduction to Atheism"; you are advised to read that article as well
before posting.

These answers are not intended to be exhaustive or definitive. The purpose of
the periodic FAQ postings is not to stifle debate, but to raise its level. If
you have something to say concerning one of these questions and which isn't
covered by the answer given, please feel free to make your point.

Overview of contents:

   "What is the purpose of this newsgroup?"
   "Hitler was an atheist!"
   "The Bible proves it"
   "Pascal's Wager"
   "What is Occam's Razor?"
   "Why it's good to believe in Jesus"
   "Why I know that God exists"
   "Einstein and "God does not play dice""
   "Everyone worships something"
   "Why there must be a causeless cause"
   "The universe is so complex it must have been designed"
   "Independent evidence that the Bible is true"
   "Godel's Incompleteness Theorem"
   "George Bush on atheism and patriotism"
   "I know where hell is!"
   "Biblical contradictions wanted"
   "The USA is a Christian nation"
   "The USA is not a Christian nation"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: What is the purpose of this newsgroup?

Typical posting:

Why have a newsgroup about atheism?  Why do atheists organize in groups?  
What is there to discuss?

Response:

Many things are discussed here, including:

* Whether it is reasonable to feign theism in order to avoid upsetting one's
  family
* Prayer in schools
* Discrimination against atheists
* Sunday trading laws
* The Satanic Child Abuse myth
* Whether one should be an overt atheist or 'stay in the closet'
* How religious societies prey (sic) on new college students
* How to get rid of unwanted proselytizers
* Whether religion is a danger to society and/or the individual
* Why people become atheists

Of course, inevitably alt.atheism tends to attract evangelical Christians
looking for someone to convert.  Most readers of the newsgroup don't 
want to be preached to, although a few seem to derive perverse pleasure 
from tearing apart particularly ill-considered or uninformed postings.

------------------------------

Subject: Hitler was an atheist!

Hitler was an atheist, and look at what he did!

Response:

Adolf Hitler was emphatically not an atheist.  As he said himself:

   The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in
   his own denomination, of making _people_stop_just_talking_
   superficially_of_God's_will,_and_actually_fulfill_God's_will,_and_
   not_let_God's_word_be_desecrated._[orig. ital.]

   For God's will gave men their form, their essence, and their
   abilities.  Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the
   Lord's creation, the divine will.  Therefore, let every man be
   active, each in his own denomination if you please, and let every
   man take it as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who
   in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines of his
   religious community and tries to butt into the other.

   [...]

   Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will
   of the Almighty Creator: _by_defending_myself_against_the_Jew,_I_am_
   fighting_for_the_work_of_the_Lord._[orig. ital.]

          -- Adolf Hitler, from "Mein Kampf", trans. Ralph Mannheim.

Of course, someone bad believing something does not make that belief
wrong.  It's also entirely possible that Hitler was lying when he claimed 
to believe in God.  We certainly can't conclude that he's an atheist, 
though.

Subject: The Bible proves it

In the Bible it says that...

Response:

Most of the readers of alt.atheism feel that the Bible is of questionable
accuracy, as it was written thousands of years ago by many authors who were
recording oral tradition that existed many years before.  Thus, any claimed
'truth' in it is of questionable legitimacy.  This isn't to say that The
Bible has no truth in it; simply that any truth must be examined before being
accepted.

Many of the readers of this group also feel that because any passage is
subject to "interpretation", any claim that a passage 'means' one thing and
one thing only is not legitimate.

Note that this feeling tends to extend to other books.

It is also remarkable to many atheists that theists tend to ignore other
equally plausible religious books in favour of those of their own religion.

Subject: Pascal's Wager

If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing --
but if you don't believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you will go to
hell. Therefore it is foolish to be an atheist.

Response:

This argument is known as Pascal's Wager.  It has several flaws.

Firstly, it does not indicate which religion to follow.  Indeed, there are
many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there.  This is often
described as the "avoiding the wrong hell" problem.  If a person is a
follower of religion X, he may end up in religion Y's version of hell.

Secondly, the statement that "If you believe in God and turn out to be
incorrect, you have lost nothing" is not true.  Suppose you're believing in
the wrong God -- the true God might punish you for your foolishness.
Consider also the deaths that have resulted from people rejecting medicine in
favour of prayer.

Another flaw in the argument is that it is based on the assumption that 
the two possibilities are equally likely -- or at least, that they are of 
comparable likelihood.  If, in fact, the possibility of there being a God 
is close to zero, the argument becomes much less persuasive.  So sadly the
argument is only likely to convince those who believe already.

Also, many feel that for intellectually honest people, belief is based on 
evidence, with some amount of intuition.  It is not a matter of will or 
cost-benefit analysis.

Formally speaking, the argument consists of four statements:

  1. One does not know whether God exists.
  2. Not believing in God is bad for one's eternal soul if God does
     exist.
  3. Believing in God is of no consequence if God does not exist.
  4. Therefore it is in one's interest to believe in God.

There are two approaches to the argument.  The first is to view 1 as an
assumption, and 2 as a consequence of it.  One problem with this approach, in
the abstract, is that it creates information from no information.  This is
considered invalid in information theory.  Statement 1 indicates one has no
information about God -- but statement 2 indicates that beneficial information
can be gained from the absolute lack of information about God.  This violates
information entropy -- information has been extracted from no information, at
no "cost".

The alternative approach is to claim that 1 and 2 are both assumptions.  The
problem with this is that 2 is then basically an assumption which states the
Christian position, and only a Christian will agree with that assumption. The
argument thus collapses to "If you are a Christian, it is in your interests
to believe in God" -- a rather vacuous tautology, and not the way Pascal
intended the argument to be viewed.

The biggest reason why Pascal's wager is a failure is that if God is
omniscient he will certainly know who really believes and who believes as
a wager.  He will spurn the latter... assuming he actually cares at all
whether people believe in him.

Subject: What is Occam's Razor?

People keep talking about Occam's Razor.  What is it?

Response:

William of Occam formulated a principle which has become known as Occam's 
Razor.  In its original form, it said "Do not multiply entities 
unnecessarily."  That is, if you can explain something without supposing
the existence of some entity, then do so.

Nowadays when people refer to Occam's Razor, they generally express it 
more generally, for example as "Take the simplest solution".

The relevance to atheism is that we can look at two possible explanations 
for what we see around us:

1. There is an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there, which
came into being as a result of natural processes.

2. There is an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there, and 
there is also a God who created the universe.  Clearly this God must be 
of non-zero complexity.

Given that both explanations fit the facts, Occam's Razor might suggest 
that we should take the simpler of the two -- solution number one.
Unfortunately, some argue that there is a third even more simple solution:

3. There isn't an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there.  
We just imagine that there is.

This third option leads us logically towards solipsism, which many people 
find unacceptable.
 
Subject: Why it's good to believe in Jesus

I want to tell people about the virtues and benefits of my religion.

Response:

Preaching is not appreciated.

Feel free to talk about your religion, but please do not write postings that
are on a "conversion" theme.  Such postings do not belong on alt.atheism and
will be rejected from alt.atheism.moderated (try the newsgroup
talk.religion.misc).

You would doubtless not welcome postings from atheists to your favourite
newsgroup in an attempt to convert you; please do unto others as you would
have them do unto you!

Often theists make their basic claims about God in the form of lengthy
analogies or parables.  Be aware that atheists have heard of God and know the
basic claims about him; if the sole purpose of your parable is to tell
atheists that God exists and brings salvation, you may as well not post it,
since it tells us nothing we have not been told before.

Subject: Why I know that God exists

I *know* from personal experience and prayer that God exists.

Response:

Just as many theists have personal evidence that the being they worship
exists, so many atheists have personal evidence that such beings do not
exist.  That evidence varies from person to person.

Furthermore, without wishing to dismiss your evidence out of hand, many
people have claimed all kinds of unlikely things -- that they have been
abducted by UFOs, visited by the ghost of Elvis, and so on.

Subject: Einstein and "God does not play dice"

Albert Einstein believed in God.  Do you think you're cleverer than him?

Response:

Einstein did once comment that "God does not play dice [with the universe]". 
This quotation is commonly mentioned to show that Einstein believed in the
Christian God.  Used this way, it is out of context; it refers to Einstein's
refusal to accept the uncertainties indicated by quantum theory. Furthermore,
Einstein's religious background was Jewish rather than Christian.

A better quotation showing what Einstein thought about God is the following:
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of
what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of
human beings."

Einstein was unable to accept Quantum Theory because of his belief in an
objective, orderly reality; a reality which would not be subject to random
events and which would not be dependent upon the observer.  He believed that
QM was incomplete, and that a better theory would have no need for
statistical interpretations.  So far no such better theory has been found,
and much evidence suggests that it never will be.

A longer quote from Einstein appears in "Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A
Symposium", published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion
in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941.  In

  "The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events
   the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side
   of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature.  For him
   neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an
   independent cause of natural events.  To be sure, the doctrine of a
   personal God interfering with natural events could never be
   *refuted* [italics his], in the real sense, by science, for this
   doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific
   knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.

   But I am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives
   of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal.  For a doctrine
   which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark,
   will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm
   to human progress.  In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers
   of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal
   God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past
   placed such vast power in the hands of priests.  In their labors they
   will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable
   of cultivating the Good, the True, and the Beautiful in humanity
   itself.  This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an incomparably
   more worthy task..."

  "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religous convictions,
   a lie which is being systematically repeated.  I do not believe in a
   personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.
   If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the
   unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our
   science can reveal it."

The latter quote is from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen 
Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, and published by Princeton University Press.  
Also from the same book:

  "I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics
   to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind 
   it."

Of course, the fact that Einstein chose not to believe in Christianity does 
not in itself imply that Christianity is false.

Subject: Everyone worships something

Everyone worships something, whether it's money, power or God.

Response:

If that is true, everyone is a polytheist.  Theists care just as much about
those things that atheists care about.  If the atheists' reactions to (for
example) their families amount to worship then so do the theists'.

Subject: Why there must be a causeless cause

Sets of integers that have a lower bound each have a smallest member, so
chains of causes must all have a first element, a causeless cause.

Response:

The set of real numbers greater than zero has a definite lower bound, but has
no smallest member.

Further, even if it is true that there must be a causeless cause, that does
not imply that that cause must be a conscious supernatural entity, and
especially not that any such entity must match the description favoured by
any particular religion.

Subject: The universe is so complex it must have been designed

The presence of design in the universe proves there is a God.  Surely you
don't think all this appeared here just by chance?

Response:

This is known as the Argument From Design.

It is a matter of dispute whether there is any element of design in the
universe. Those who believe that the complexity and diversity of living
creatures on the earth is evidence of a creator are best advised to read the
newsgroup talk.origins for a while.

There is insufficient space to summarize both sides of that debate here.
However, the conclusion is that there is no scientific evidence in favour of
so-called Scientific Creationism. Furthermore, there is much evidence,
observation and theory that can explain many of the complexities of the
universe and life on earth.

The origin of the Argument by Design is a feeling that the existence of
something as incredibly intricate as, say, a human is so improbable that
surely it can't have come about by chance; that surely there must be some 
external intelligence directing things so that humans come from the chaos
deliberately.

But if human intelligence is so improbable, surely the existence of a mind
capable of fashioning an entire universe complete with conscious beings must
be immeasurably more unlikely?  The approach used to argue in favour of the
existence of a creator can be turned around and applied to the Creationist
position.

This leads us to the familiar theme of "If a creator created the universe,
what created the creator?", but with the addition of spiralling 
improbability.  The only way out is to declare that the creator was not
created and just "is" (or "was").

From here we might as well ask what is wrong with saying that the universe
just "is" without introducing a creator?  Indeed Stephen Hawking, in his book
"A Brief History of Time", explains his theory that the universe is closed
and finite in extent, with no beginning or end.

The Argument From Design is often stated by analogy, in the so-called 
Watchmaker Argument.  One is asked to imagine that one has found a watch on
the beach.  Does one assume that it was created by a watchmaker, or that it
evolved naturally?  Of course one assumes a watchmaker.  Yet like the 
watch, the universe is intricate and complex; so, the argument goes, the 
universe too must have a creator.

The Watchmaker analogy suffers from three particular flaws, over and above 
those common to all Arguments By Design.  Firstly, a watchmaker creates 
watches from pre-existing materials, whereas God is claimed to have 
created the universe from nothing.  These two sorts of creation are 
clearly fundamentally different, and the analogy is therefore rather weak.

Secondly, a watchmaker makes watches, but there are many other things in 
the world.  If we walked further along the beach and found a nuclear 
reactor, we wouldn't assume it was created by the watchmaker.  The argument 
would therefore suggest a multitude of creators, each responsible for a 
different part of creation.

Finally, in the first part of the watchmaker argument we conclude that 
the watch is not part of nature because it is ordered, and therefore 
stands out from the randomness of nature.  Yet in the second part of the 
argument, we start from the position that the universe is obviously not 
random, but shows elements of order.  The Watchmaker argument is thus 
internally inconsistent.

Subject: Independent evidence that the Bible is true

The events of the New Testament are confirmed by independent documentary
evidence.  For example...

Response:

The writings of Josephus are often mentioned as independent documentary
evidence.

Early versions of Josephus's work are thought not to have mentioned Jesus or
James; the extant version discusses John in a non-Christian context.  Many
scholars believe that the original mentioned Jesus and James in passing, but
that this was expanded by Christian copyists.  Several "reconstructions" of
the original text have been published to this effect.

Much information appears in the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius (about 320
C.E.).  It is worthless as historical material because of the deliberate
falsification of the wily Eusebius who is generally acknowledged as 'the
first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity.' It is Eusebius who is
generally given the title of authorship for this material.

Aside from the New Testament, the biographical information about Jesus is
more well-documented.  For further information, please consult the Frequently
Asked Questions file for the newsgroup soc.religion.christian.

Subject: Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

Godel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that it is impossible for the
Bible to be both true and complete.

Response:

Godel's First Incompleteness Theorem says that in any consistent formal 
system which is sufficiently expressive that it can model ordinary 
arithmetic, one can formulate expressions which can never be proven to be 
valid or invalid ('true' or 'false') within that formal system.  (Technically
speaking, the system must also be recursive; that is, there must be a decision
procedure for determining whether a given string is an axiom within the formal 
system.)

Essentially, all such systems can formulate what is known as a "Liar 
Paradox."  The classic Liar Paradox sentence in ordinary English is "This 
sentence is false."  Note that if a proposition is undecidable, the formal 
system cannot even deduce that it is undecidable.

The logic used in theological discussions is rarely well defined, so claims
that Godel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that it is impossible to
prove or disprove) the existence of God are worthless in isolation.

One can trivially define a formal system in which it is possible to prove the
existence of God, simply by having the existence of God stated as an axiom. 
This is unlikely to be viewed by atheists as a convincing proof, however.

It may be possible to succeed in producing a formal system built on axioms
that both atheists and theists agree with.  It may then be possible to show
that Godel's Incompleteness Theorem holds for that system.  However, that
would still not demonstrate that it is impossible to prove that God exists
within the system.  Furthermore, it certainly wouldn't tell us anything about
whether it is possible to prove the existence of God generally.

Note also that all of these hypothetical formal systems tell us nothing about
the actual existence of God; the formal systems are just abstractions.

Another frequent claim is that Godel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates
that a religious text (the Bible, the Book of Mormon or whatever) cannot be
both consistent and universally applicable. Religious texts are not formal
systems, so such claims are nonsense.

Subject: George Bush on atheism and patriotism

Did George Bush really say that atheists should not be considered citizens?

Response:

The following exchange took place at the Chicago airport between Robert I.
Sherman of American Atheist Press and George Bush, on August 27 1988. Sherman
is a fully accredited reporter, and was present by invitation as a member of
the press corps.  The Republican presidential nominee was there to announce
federal disaster relief for Illinois.  The discussion turned to the
presidential primary:

 RS: "What will you do to win the votes of Americans who are atheists?"

 GB: "I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community.  Faith in
      God is important to me."

 RS: "Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of
      Americans who are atheists?"

 GB: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens,
      nor should they be considered patriots.  This is one nation under
      God."

 RS: "Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation
      of state and church?"

 GB: "Yes, I support the separation of church and state.  I'm just not
      very high on atheists."

UPI reported on May 8, 1989, that various atheist organizations were
still angry over the remarks.

The exchange appeared in the Boulder Daily Camera on Monday February 27,
1989.  It can also be found in "Free Enquiry" magazine, Fall 1988 issue,
Volume 8, Number 4, page 16.

On October 29, 1988, Mr. Sherman had a confrontation with Ed Murnane,
cochairman of the Bush-Quayle '88 Illinois campaign.  This concerned a
lawsuit Mr. Sherman had filed to stop the Community Consolidated School
District 21 (Chicago, Illinois) from forcing his first-grade Atheist son to
pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States as "one nation under God"
(Bush's phrase).  The following conversation took place:
 
 RS: "American Atheists filed the Pledge of Allegiance lawsuit yesterday.
      Does the Bush campaign have an official response to this filing?"
 
 EM: "It's bullshit."
 
 RS: "What is bullshit?"
 
 EM: "Everything that American Atheists does, Rob, is bullshit."
 
 RS: "Thank you for telling me what the official position of the Bush
      campaign is on this issue."

 EM: "You're welcome."

After Bush's election, American Atheists wrote to Bush asking him to retract
his statement.  On February 21st 1989, C. Boyden Gray, Counsel to the
President, replied on White House stationery that Bush substantively stood by

  "As you are aware, the President is a religious man who neither supports
   atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or
   supported by the government."

For further information, contact American Atheist Veterans at the American
Atheist Press's Cameron Road address.

Subject: I know where hell is!

I know where Hell is!  Hell is in Norway!

Response:

There are several towns called "Hell" in various countries around the
world, including Norway and the USA.  Whilst this information is mildly
amusing the first time one hears it, readers of alt.atheism are now 
getting pretty fed up with hearing it every week.

Subject: Biblical contradictions wanted

Does anyone have a list of Biblical contradictions?

Response:
 
American Atheist Press publish an atheist's handbook detailing Biblical
contradictions. See the accompanying posting on Atheist Resources for
details.

There is a file containing some Biblical contradictions available from the
archive-server@mantis.co.uk. See the contacts file for more information.

Subject: The USA is a Christian nation

Because of the religious beliefs of the founding fathers, shouldn't the
United States be considered a Christian nation?

Response:

Based upon the writings of several important founding fathers, it is clear
that they never intended the US to be a Christian nation.  Here are some
quotes; there are many more.

  "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society?
   In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the
   ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen
   upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been
   the guardians of the liberties of the people.  Rulers who wish to subvert
   the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient
   auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it,
   needs them not."
      - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

  "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
   the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
   Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
      - John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

  "History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
   maintaining a free civil government.  This marks the lowest grade of
   ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will
   always avail themselves for their own purpose."

      - Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

  "I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or
   requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely
   above it."

      - Benjamin Franklin, from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion",
        Nov. 20, 1728

Subject: The USA is not a Christian nation

Is it true that George Washington said that the United States is not in any
sense founded upon the Christian religion?

Response:

No.  The quotation often given is in fact from Article XI of the 1797 Treaty
of Tripoli (8 Stat 154, Treaty Series 358):

   Article 11

   As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
   founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character of
   enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, -- and as
   the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility
   against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no
   pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption
   of the harmony existing between the two countries.

The text may be found in the Congressional Record or in treaty collections
such as Charles Bevans' "Treaties and Other International Agreements of the
United States of America 1776-1949", vol. 11 (pp. 1070-1080).

The English text of the Treaty of Tripoli was approved by the U.S. Senate on
June 7, 1797 and ratified by President John Adams on June 10, 1797.  It was
recently discovered that the Arabic version of the treaty not only lacks the
quotation, it lacks Article XI altogether.

The person who translated the Arabic to English was Joel Barlow, Consul
General at Algiers, a close friend of Thomas Paine -- and an opponent of
Christianity.  It is possible that Barlow made up Article XI, but since there
is no Arabic version of that article to be found, it's hard to say.

In 1806 a new Treaty of Tripoli was ratified which no longer contained the
quotation.

This was known as *Journey to the Far Side of the Sun* in the United
States and as *Doppelganger* in the U.K.  It was produced by the great
team of Gerry and Sylvia Anderson (whose science was usually a bit
better than this).  It may have been their first production using live
actors-- they were better known for their technophilic puppet shows,
such as *Supercar*, *Stingray*, and *Thunderbirds*.  Later, they went
on to do more live-action SF series: *UFO* and *Space: 1999*.

The astronomy was lousy, but the lifting-body spacecraft, VTOL
airliners, and mighty Portugese launch complex were *wonderful* to
look at.

SSF is up for redesign again.  Let's do it right this
time!  Let's step back and consider the functionality we want:

[1] microgravity/vacuum process research
[2] life sciences research (adaptation to space)
[3] spacecraft maintenence 

The old NASA approach, explified by Shuttle and SSF so far, was to
centralize functionality.  These projects failed to meet
their targets by a wide margin: the military and commercial users 
took most of their payloads off Shuttle after wasting much effort to 
tie their payloads to it, and SSF has crumbled into disorganization
and miscommunication.  Over $50 billion has been spent on these
two projects with no reduction in launch costs and littel improvement
in commercial space industrialization.  Meanwhile, military and commercial 
users have come up with a superior strategy for space development: the 
constellation.  

Firstly, different functions are broken down into different 
constellations placed in the optimal orbit for each function:
thus we have the GPS/Navstar constellation in 12-hour orbits,
comsats in Clarke and Molniya orbits, etc.  Secondly, the task
is distributed amongst several spacecraft in a constellation,
providing for redundancy and full coverage where needed.

SSF's 3 main functions require quite different environments
and are also prime candidates for constellization.

[1] We have the makings of a microgravity constellation now:
COMET and Mir for long-duration flights, Shuttle/Spacelab for
short-duration flights.  The best strategy for this area is
inexpensive, incremental improvement: installation of U.S. facilities 
on Mir, Shuttle/Mir linkup, and transition from Shuttle/Spacelab
to a much less expensive SSTO/Spacehab/COMET or SSTO/SIF/COMET.
We might also expand the research program to take advantage of 
interesting space environments, eg the high-radiation Van Allen belt 
or gas/plasma gradients in comet tails.  The COMET system can
be much more easily retrofitted for these tasks, where a 
station is too large to affordably launch beyond LEO.

[2] We need to study life sciences not just in microgravity,
but also in lunar and Martian gravities, and in the radiation
environments of deep space instead of the protected shelter
of LEO.  This is a very long-term, low-priority project, since
astronauts will have little practical use in the space program
until costs come down orders of magnitude.  Furthermore, using
astronauts severely restricts the scope of the investigation,
and the sample size.  So I propose LabRatSat, a constellation
tether-bolo satellites that test out various levels of gravity
in super-Van-Allen-Belt orbits that are representative of the
radiation environment encountered on Earth-Moon, Earth-Mars,
Earth-asteroid, etc. trips.  The miniaturized life support
machinery might be operated real-time from earth thru a VR
interface.  AFter several orbital missions have been flown,
follow-ons can act as LDEFs on the lunar and Martian surface,
testing out the actual environment at low cost before $billions
are spent on astronauts.

[3] By far the largest market for spacecraft servicing is in 
Clarke orbit.  I propose a fleet of small teleoperated
robots and small test satellites on which ground engineers can
practice their skills.  Once in place, robots can pry stuck
solar arrays and antennas, attach solar battery power packs,
inject fuel, etc.  Once the fleet is working, it can be
spun off to commercial company(s) who can work with the comsat
companies to develop comsat replaceable module standards.

By applying the successful constellation strategy, and getting
rid of the failed centralized strategy of STS and old SSF, we
have radically improved the capability of the program while
greatly cutting its cost.  For a fraction of SSF's pricetag,
we can fix satellites where the satellites are, we can study
life's adaptation to a much large & more representative variety 
of space environments, and we can do microgravity and vacuum
research inexpensively and, if needed, in special-purpose
orbits.

N.B., we can apply the constellation strategy to space exploration
as well, greatly cutting its cost and increasing its functionality.  
Mars Network and Artemis are two good examples of this; more ambitiously 
we can set up a network of native propellant plants on Mars that can be used
to fuel planet-wide rover/ballistic hopper prospecting and
sample return.  The descendants of LabRatSat's technology can
be used as a Mars surface LDEF and to test out closed-ecology
greenhouses on Mars at low cost.

: Exodus 21:22-25:

:        22 And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with
:           child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further
:           injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may
:           demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide.
:        23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint
:           as a penalty life for life,
:        24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
:        25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

: The most straightforward interpretation of these verses is that if
: men in a fight strike a woman and cause her to miscarry, the penalty
: is only a fine.  If, however, the woman is injured or dies, the
: *lex talionis* doctrine of "an eye for an eye" applies.  This is the
: Jewish interpretation, and is supported by Jewish commentaries on
: these verses.
:    This is quite an embarrassment for pro-lifer Christians, so there is
: of course an alternate explanation.  The alternative interprets the
: word "miscarriage" to mean "premature birth"--i.e., the child is born
: alive--and "further injury" to mean injury to either the woman or
: the fetus.  This is not a straightforward interpretation, it is not
: (so far as I know) supported by any Jewish commentaries, and it does
: not appeared to be supported by any other part of the Bible.

What if any, historical reference do we have to abortion at this time?  Did
the ancient Jew have appropriate reference to understand abortion? (I am
truly asking, not making a point veiled as a question).  If there is 
little understanding of the medical procedure we know as abortion, it is
not surprising the Bible makes little reference to it, as it makes little
reference to nuclear power and contamination.

: >Based on the amount of E-Mail from fellow Christians who have read the
: >posts and told me I was wasting my time with Butler and Joslin, I told
: >them I wasn't doing it for DB or  DJ but for other Christians.  They
: >have told me that DB's and DJ's arguments won't convince most Bible
: >studying Christians.  So I have reevaluated my purpose here and it's
: >also contributed to my decision.

: So most Bible-studying Christians won't be convinced by my arguments? 
: And this is supposed to be a Good Thing, I presume?

Where does this "Most Bible studying Christians think as Frank
does" come from.  And what implied "good" are you doing for other
Christians?

At least some of what you are teaching has been demonstrated as
wrong.  Has it ever occured to you that you may be doing more harm
than good to your fellow Christians?

BTW, I used to think like Frank does.  I went to a fundamentalist
church for a while.  I didn't start to really think about what
they were saying until I noticed a "God's Science" phamphlet
there.  I read it and noticed that the authors of it knew virtually
nothing about Science.  I asked church members some questions about
"theories" from the phamphlet and got only deceptive answers.  I
began to notice a very similar style of "answers" for theological
questions as well.  The only conclusion I could reach was that
these peoples' beliefs about the Bible were about as valid as
their beliefs in their God's Science phamphlet.

: If there are still people out there who think that my purpose here
: is to "attack the Bible," (an accusation Frank once made) I would point
: out that I have also criticized people who have posted "bible
: contradictions" that turn out to be silly, out of context, or easily
: (and legitimately) reconciled.  I'm not attacking the Bible, but 
: intellectual dishonesty *about* the Bible, from either side.

If one of the primary purposes of Christians is to seek out truth,
how can people condemn you for doing this?

I need to get the specs, or at least a very verbose interpretation of the
specs, for QuickTime.  Technical articles from magazines and references to
books would be nice too.

I also need the specs in a format usable on a Unix or MS-DOS system.  I can't
do much with the QuickTime stuff they have on ftp.apple.com in its present
format.

How do you know it's based on ignorance, couldn't that be wrong? Why would it
be wrong 
to fall into the trap that you mentioned? 

Also, if I may, what the heck where we talking about and why didn't I keep 
some comments on there to see what the line of thoughts were?

MAC
 
--

Is the ".3ds" file format for Autodesk's 3D Animation Studio available?

Thanks,
Gary

See, we are disagreeing on the definition of moral here.  Earlier, you said
that it must be a conscious act.  By your definition, no instinctive
behavior pattern could be an act of morality.  You are trying to apply
human terms to non-humans.  I think that even if someone is not conscious
of an alternative, this does not prevent his behavior from being moral.

I try to show it, but by your definition, it can't be shown.

And, morality can be thought of a large class of princples.  It could be
defined in terms of many things--the laws of physics if you wish.  However,
it seems silly to talk of a "moral" planet because it obeys the laws of
phyics.  It is less silly to talk about animals, as they have at least
some free will.

  Does anyone know how to convert a targa or similar 24 bit picture into a list
 of R G B values and then convert back to targa after doing operations on the p
ixels R G B codes.
ex.  Targa ---->000100255pixel 1
001200201pixel 2etc....
If no one can help me with this could someone explain how the 24 bit data is st
ored in the targa file and also how its stored in the 8 bit targas.   Thanks

I have posted disp135.zip to alt.binaries.pictures.utilities

******   You may distribute this program freely for non-commercial use
         if no fee is gained.
******   There is no warranty. The author is not responsible for any
         damage caused by this program.

Important changes since version 1.30:
    Fix bugs in file management system (file displaying).
    Improve file management system (more user-friendly).
    Fix bug in XPM version 3 reading.
    Fix bugs in TARGA reading/writng.
    Fix bug in GEM/IMG reading.
    Add support for PCX and GEM/IMG writing.
    Auto-skip macbinary header.

(1) Introduction:
  This program can let you READ, WRITE and DISPLAY images with different
  formats. It also let you do some special effects(ROTATION, DITHERING ....)
  on image. Its main purpose is to let you convert image among different
  formts.
  Include simple file management system.
  Support 'slide show'.
  There is NO LIMIT on image size.
  Currently this program supports 8, 15, 16, 24 bits display.
  If you want to use HiColor or TrueColor, you must have VESA driver.
  If you want to modify video driver, please read section (8).

(2) Hardware Requirement:
  PC 386 or better. MSDOS 3.3 or higher.
  min amount of ram is 4M bytes(Maybe less memory will also work).
  (I recommend min 8M bytes for better performance).
  Hard disk for swapping(virtual memory).

  The following description is borrowed from DJGPP.

  Supported Wares:

  * Up to 128M of extended memory (expanded under VCPI)
  * Up to 128M of disk space used for swapping
  * SuperVGA 256-color mode up to 1024x768
  * 80387
  * XMS & VDISK memory allocation strategies
  * VCPI programs, such as QEMM, DESQview, and 386MAX

  Unsupported:

  * DPMI
  * Microsoft Windows

  Features: 80387 emulator, 32-bit unix-ish environment, flat memory
  model, SVGA graphics.

(3) Installation:
  Video drivers, emu387 and go32.exe are borrowed from DJGPP.
  (If you use Western Digital VGA chips, read readme.wd)
  (This GO32.EXE is a modified version for vesa and is COMPLETELY compatible
   with original version)
+  *** But some people report that this go32.exe is not compatible with
+      other DJGPP programs in their system. If you encounter this problem,
+      DON'T put go32.exe within search path.

  *** Please read runme.bat for how to run this program.

  If you choose xxxxx.grn as video driver, add 'nc 256' to environment
    GO32.

  For example, go32=driver x:/xxxxx/xxxxx.grn nc 256

  If you don't have 80x87, add 'emu x:/xxxxx/emu387' to environment GO32.

  For example, go32=driver x:/xxxxx/xxxxx.grd emu x:/xxxxx/emu387

  **** Notes: 1. I only test tr8900.grn, et4000.grn and vesa.grn.
                 Other drivers are not tested.
              2. I have modified et4000.grn to support 8, 15, 16, 24 bits
                 display. You don't need to use vesa driver.
                 If et4000.grn doesn't work, please try vesa.grn.
              3. For those who want to use HiColor or TrueColor display,
                 please use vesa.grn(except et4000 users).
                 You can find vesa BIOS driver from :
                   wuarchive.wustl.edu: /mirrors/msdos/graphics
                   godzilla.cgl.rmit.oz.au: /kjb/MGL

(4) Command Line Switch:

+   Usage : display [-d|--display initial_display_type]
+                   [-s|--sort sort_method]
+                   [-h|-?]

    Display type: 8(SVGA,default), 15, 16(HiColor), 24(TrueColor)
+   Sort method: 'name', 'ext'

(5) Function Key:

    F2 : Change disk drive

+   CTRL-A -- CTRL-Z : change disk drive.

    F3 : Change filename mask (See match.doc)

    F4 : Change parameters

    F5 : Some effects on picture, eg. flip, rotate ....

    F7 : Make Directory

    t : Tag file

    + : Tag group files (See match.doc)

    T : Tag all files

    u : Untag file

    - : Untag group files (See match.doc)

    U : Untag all files

    Ins : Change display type (8,15,16,24) in 'read' & 'screen' menu.

    F6,m,M : Move file(s)

    F8,d,D : Delete file(s)

    r,R : Rename file

    c,C : Copy File(s)

    z,Z : Display first 10 bytes in Ascii, Hex and Dec modes.

+   f,F : Display disk free space.

    Page Up/Down : Move one page

    TAB : Change processing target.

    Arrow keys, Home, End, Page Up, Page Down: Scroll image.
      Home: Left Most.
      End: Right Most.
      Page Up: Top Most.
      Page Down: Bottom Most.
      in 'screen' & 'effect' menu :
        Left,Right arrow: Change display type(8, 15, 16, 24 bits)

    s,S : Slide Show. ESCAPE to terminate.

    ALT-X : Quit program without prompting.

+   ALT-A : Reread directory.

    Escape : Abort function and return.

(6) Support Format:

  Read: GIF(.gif), Japan MAG(.mag), Japan PIC(.pic), Sun Raster(.ras),
        Jpeg(.jpg), XBM(.xbm), Utah RLE(.rle), PBM(.pbm), PGM(.pgm),
        PPM(.ppm), PM(.pm), PCX(.pcx), Japan MKI(.mki), Tiff(.tif),
        Targa(.tga), XPM(.xpm), Mac Paint(.mac), GEM/IMG(.img),
        IFF/ILBM(.lbm), Window BMP(.bmp), QRT ray tracing(.qrt),
        Mac PICT(.pct), VIS(.vis), PDS(.pds), VIKING(.vik), VICAR(.vic),
        FITS(.fit), Usenix FACE(.fac).

        the extensions in () are standard extensions.

  Write: GIF, Sun Raster, Jpeg, XBM, PBM, PGM, PPM, PM, Tiff, Targa,
         XPM, Mac Paint, Ascii, Laser Jet, IFF/ILBM, Window BMP,
+        Mac PICT, VIS, FITS, FACE, PCX, GEM/IMG.

  All Read/Write support full color(8 bits), grey scale, b/w dither,
      and 24 bits image, if allowed for that format.

(7) Detail:

   Initialization:
      Set default display type to highest display type.
      Find allowable screen resolution(for .grn video driver only).

   1. When you run this program, you will enter 'read' menu. Whthin this
      menu you can press any function key except F5. If you move or copy
      files, you will enter 'write' menu. the 'write' menu is much like
      'read' menu, but only allow you to change directory.
+       The header line in 'read' menu includes "(d:xx,f:xx,t:xx)".
+         d : display type. f: number of files. t: number of tagged files.
      pressing SPACE in 'read' menu will let you select which format to use
        for reading current file.
      pressing RETURN in 'read' menu will let you reading current file. This
        program will automatically determine which format this file is.
        The procedure is: First, check magic number. If fail, check
        standard extension. Still fail, report error.
      pressing s or S in 'read' menu will do 'Slide Show'.
        If delay time is 0, program will wait until you hit a key
          (except ESCAPE).
        If any error occurs, program will make a beep.
        ESCAPE to terminate.
      pressing Ins in 'read' menu will change display type.
      pressing ALT-X in 'read' menu will quit program without prompting.

   2. Once image file is successfully read, you will enter 'screen' menu.
      Within this menu F5 is turn on. You can do special effect on image.
      pressing RETURN: show image.
        in graphic mode, press RETURN, SPACE or ESCAPE to return to text
        mode.
      pressing TAB: change processing target. This program allows you to do
        special effects on 8-bit or 24-bit image.
      pressing Left,Right arrow: change display type. 8, 15, 16, 24 bits.
      pressing SPACE: save current image to file.
        B/W Dither: save as black/white image(1 bit).
        Grey Scale: save as grey image(8 bits).
        Full Color: save as color image(8 bits).
        True Color: save as 24-bit image.

        This program will ask you some questions if you want to write image
        to file. Some questions are format-dependent. Finally This program
        will prompt you a filename. If you want to save file under another
        directory other than current directory, please press SPACE. after
        pressing SPACE, you will enter 'write2' menu. You can change
        directory to what you want. Then,

        pressing SPACE: this program will prompt you 'original' filename.
        pressing RETURN: this program will prompt you 'selected' filename
                      (filename under bar).

  3. This program supports 8, 15, 16, 24 bits display.

  4. This Program is MEMORY GREEDY. If you don't have enough memory,
     the performance is poor.

  5. If you want to save 8 bits image :
       try GIF then TIFF(LZW) then TARGA then Sun Raster then BMP then ...

     If you want to save 24 bits image (lossless):
       try TIFF(LZW) or TARGA or ILBM or Sun Raster
       (No one is better for true 24bits image)

  6. I recommend Jpeg for storing 24 bits images, even 8 bits images.

  7. Not all subroutines are fully tested

  8. This document is not well written. If you have any PROBLEM, SUGGESTION,
     COMMENT about this program,
     Please send to u7711501@bicmos.ee.nctu.edu.tw (140.113.11.13).
     I need your suggestion to improve this program.
     (There is NO anonymous ftp on this site)

(8) Tech. information:
  Program (user interface and some subroutines) written by Jih-Shin Ho.
  Some subroutines are borrowed from XV(2.21) and PBMPLUS(dec 91).
  Tiff(V3.2) and Jpeg(V4) reading/writing are through public domain
    libraries.
  Compiled with DJGPP.
  You can get whole DJGPP package from SIMTEL20 or mirror sites.
    For example, wuarchive.wustl.edu: /mirrors/msdos/djgpp

(9) For Thoese who want to modify video driver:
   1. get GRX source code from SIMTEL20 or mirror sites.
   2. For HiColor and TrueColor:
        15 bits : # of colors is set to 32768.
        16 bits : # of colors is set to 0xc010.
        24 bits : # of colors is set to 0xc018.

Acknowledgment:
  I would like to thank the authors of XV and PBMPLUS for their permission
    to let me use their subroutines.
  Also I will thank the authors who write Tiff and Jpeg libraries.
  Thank DJ. Without DJGPP I can't do any thing on PC.

: Mr Connor's assertion that "more complex" == later in paleontology
: is simply incorrect.  Many lineages are known in which whole
: structures are lost -- for example, snakes have lost their legs.
: Cave fish have lost their eyes.  Some species have almost completely
: lost their males.  Kiwis are descended from birds with functional
: wings.

Joel,

The statements I made were illustrative of the inescapably
anthrpomorphic quality of any desciption of an evolutionary process.
There is no way evolution can be described or explained in terms other
than teleological, that is my whole point. Even those who have reason
to believe they understand evolution (biologists for instance) tend to
personify nature and I can't help but wonder if it's because of the
limits of the language or the nature of nature.

I recently got a file describing a library of rendering routines 
called SIPP (SImple Polygon Processor).  Could anyone tell me where I can 
FTP the source code and which is the newest version around?
        Also, I've never used Renderman so I was wondering if Renderman 
is like SIPP?  ie. a library of rendering routines which one uses to make 
a program that creates the image...

                                        Thanks,  Joe Tham

I am looking for Super 8mm Projector with SOUNDS.
If anybody out there has one for sale, send email with
the name of brand, condition of the projector, and price
for sale to kimd@rpi.edu
(IT MUST HAVE SOUND CAPABILITY)

Replace "Stephen" with "David Joslin," since you directed the same
    In t.r.m. Robert Weiss writes [a promise from Psalm 9:10]
    Gee, since you wouldn't be at all hypocritical, you must be really
    busy arguing against these out-of-context extracted translations!

As you may recall, you mailed me six mail messages quoting articles by
Robert Weiss, all sent within a few minutes of each other.  You added:
    Naturally, I await your arguments against this out-of-context
    translation.  But I shall not await holding my breath...
and
    Wonder when you get to sleep, disputing all these out-of-context
    extracted translations!
and other similar comments. 

Perhaps you could explain why you ever thought that I might have a
reason to read all of these articles you pulled off of t.r.m, much
less write responses to them?  

I am familiar with inductive logic.  Go ahead and give me the details
of the "logic" that led you to conclude, incorrectly, that I would
condone Robert Weiss taking verses out of context.  Your conclusion was
wrong, of course, since I agree that both you and Robert Weiss were
guity of taking verses out of context.  Nothing hypocritical about
that, is there?  

Since you reached a false conclusion, you made some mistake in your
"logic."  The only question is where.  Did you think that it would
be hypocritical for me not to post a reply to Robert Weiss' articles?
Did you make the common creationist error of confusing a lack of
evidence for X with evidence for the lack of X?   Is your grasp of
inductive logic not quite as firm as you think? See if you can figure
out what your mistake was, and learn from it.

As a matter of fact, yes I do or at least I strive to.  I will not
be so proud as to boast that my faith is 100%.  I am still human
and imperfect and therefore, liable to sin.  Thankfully, there is
opportunity for repentence and forgiveness.

I've borrowed the 1992-93 version of this book from a friend...holy
moley!  What a wealth of contacts.  Five-hundred pages of information
about electronic artists and organizations around the globe (many have
email addresses).  An up to the minute database of this information is
also available on Minitel (the book's based in France...are there any
Internet=>Minitel gates?).  The book is printed in French and English.
 
To have you or your organization listed in IDEA, just send your
information to:
 
Annick Bureaud
IDEA
57, rue Falguiere
75015 Paris
France
 
It's free to be listed in it, I'm not sure how widely distributed the
book is or how much it costs.  I'm not affiliated with them in any way,
I was just impressed by their collection of organizations and artists.
I highly encourage all involved in electronic media (video, music,
graphics, animation, etc.) to send in your entry and encourage them to
make their database available on Internet.
 
...e

Well, pardon me for trying to continue the discussion rather than just
tugging my forelock in dismay at having not considered actually trying
to recover the energy from this process (which is at least trying to
go the 'right' way on the energy curve).  Now, where *did* I put those
sackcloth and ashes?

[I was not and am not 'pretending' anything; I am *so* pleased you are
not surprised, though.]

Note that I didn't say it was perpetual motion, or even that it
sounded like perpetual motion; the phrase was "sounds almost like
perpetual motion", which I, at least, consider a somewhat different
propposition than the one you elect to criticize.  Perhaps I should
beg your pardon for being *too* precise in my use of language?

I will believe that this process comes even close to approaching
technological and economic feasibility (given the mixed nature of the
trash that will have to be run through it as opposed to the costs of
separating things first and having a different 'run' for each
actinide) when I see them dump a few tons in one end and pull
(relatively) clean material out the other.  Once the costs,
technological risks, etc., are taken into account I still class this
one with the idea of throwing waste into the sun.  Sure, it's possible
and the physics are well understood, but is it really a reasonable
approach? 

And I still wonder at what sort of 'burning' rate you could get with
something like this, as opposed to what kind of energy you would
really recover as opposed to what it would cost to build and power
with and without the energy recovery.  Are we talking ounces, pounds,
or tons (grams, kilograms, or metric tons, for you SI fans) of
material and are we talking days, weeks, months, or years (days,
weeks, months or years, for you SI fans -- hmmm, still using a
non-decimated time scale, I see  ;-))?

-- 

Hi there!...
		Well, i have a 386/40 with SVGA 1Mb. (OAK chip 077) and i don't
		have VESA TSR program for this card. I need it . 
			Please... if anybody can help me, mail me at:
			lulagos@araucaria.cec.uchile.cl

	Yes, that's known as "Bresenhams Run Length Slice Algorithm for
Incremental lines". See Fundamental Algorithms for Computer Graphics,
Springer-Verlag, Berlin Heidelberg 1985.

	Hmm. I don't think I can help you with this, but you might
take a look at the following:

	"Double-Step Incremental Generation of Lines and Circles",
X. Wu and J. G. Rokne, Computer Graphics and Image processing,
Vol 37, No. 4, Mar. 1987, pp. 331-334

	"Double-Step Generation of Ellipses", X. Wu and J. G. Rokne,
IEEE Computer Graphics & Applications, May 1989, pp. 56-69

Atoms are not objective.  They aren't even real.  What scientists call
an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes 
certain physical, observable properties of our surroundings.  All
of which is subjective.  

What is objective, though, is the approach a scientist 
takes in discussing his model and his observations.  There
is no objective science.  But there is an objective approach
which is subjectively selected by the scientist.  Objective
in this case means a specified, unchanging set of rules that
he and his colleagues use to discuss their science.

This is in contrast to your Objective Morality.  There may be an
objective approach to subjectively discuss your beliefs on
morality.  But there exists no objective morality.

Also, science deals with how we can discuss our observations of 
the physical world around us.  In that the method of discussion
is objective ( not the science; not the discussion itself ).

Science makes no claims to know the whys or even the hows sometimes
of what we can observe.  It simply gives us a way to discuss our
surroundings in a meaningful, consistent way.

I think it was Neils Bohr who said (to paraphrase) Science is what
we can _say_ about the physical world.

Nope, this won't work for a cylinder. You can have a line arbitrarily close
to the the cylinder backbone, and yet not intersect it. The test works for a
pillbox, though. (a cylinder with two hemispheres attached at the ends.)

-arun

I have 19 (2 MB worth!) uuencode'd GIF images contain charts outlining
one of the many alternative Space Station designs being considered in
Crystal City.  Mr. Mark Holderman works down the hall from me, and can
be reached for comment at (713) 483-1317, or via e-mail at
mholderm@jscprofs.nasa.gov.

Mark proposed this design, which he calls "Geode" ("rough on the
outside, but a gem on the inside") or the "ET Strongback with
integrated hab modules and centrifuge."  As you can see from file
geodeA.gif, it uses a Space Shuttle External Tank (ET) in place of much
of the truss which is currently part of Space Station Freedom.  The
white track on the outside of the ET is used by the Station Remonte
Manipulator System (SRMS) and by the Reaction Control System (RCS)
pod.  This allows the RCS pod to move along the track so that thrusting
can occur near the center of gravity (CG) of the Station as the mass
properties of the Station change during assembly.

The inline module design allows the Shuttle to dock more easily because
it can approach closer to the Station's CG and at a structurally strong
part of the Station.  In the current SSF design, docking forces are
limited to 400 pounds, which seriously constrains the design of the
docking system.

The ET would have a hatch installed pre-flight, with little additional
launch mass.  We've always had the ability to put an ET into orbit
(contrary to some rumors which have circulated here), but we've never
had a reason to do it, while we have had some good reasons not to
(performance penalties, control, debris generation, and eventual
de-orbit and impact footprint).  Once on-orbit, we would vent the
residual H2.  The ET insulation (SOFI) either a) erodes on-orbit from
impact with atomic Oxygen, or b) stays where it is, and we deploy a
Kevlar sheath around it to protect it and keep it from contaminating
the local space environment.  Option b) has the advantage of providing
further micrometeor protection.  The ET is incredibly strong (remember,
it supports the whole stack during launch), and could serve as the
nucleus for a much more ambitious design as budget permits.

The white module at the end of ET contains a set of Control Moment
Gyros to be used for attitude control, while the RCS will be used
for gyro desaturation.  The module also contains a de-orbit system
which can be used at the end of the Station's life to perform a
controlled de-orbit (so we don't kill any more kangaroos, like we
did with Skylab).

The centrifuge, which has the same volume as a hab module, could be
used for long-term studies of the effects of lunar or martian gravity
on humans.  The centrifuge will be used as a momentum storage device
for the whole attitude control system.  The centrifuge is mounted on
one of the modules, opposite the ET and the solar panels.

This design uses most of the existing SSF designs for electrical,
data and communication systems, getting leverage from the SSF work
done to date.

Mark proposed this design at Joe Shea's committee in Crystal City,
and he reports that he was warmly received.  However, the rumors
I hear say that a design based on a wingless Space Shuttle Orbiter
seems more likely.

Please note that this text is my interpretation of Mark's design;
you should see his notes in the GIF files.  

Instead of posting a 2 MB file to sci.space, I tried to post these for
anon-FTP in ames.arc.nasa.gov, but it was out of storage space.  I'll
let you all know when I get that done.

-- 
 |||||||||||   		 	   ||||||||||| 
_|||||||||||_______________________|||||||||||_      jr0930@eve.albany.edu
-|||||||||||-----------------------|||||||||||-     jr0930@Albnyvms.bitnet
 |||||||||||  GO HEAVY OR GO HOME  |||||||||||

I had spacefood sticks just about every morning for breakfast in
first and second grade (69-70, 70-71).  They came in Chocolate,
strawberry, and peanut butter and were cylinders about 10cm long
and 1cm in diameter wrapped in yellow space foil (well, it seemed
like space foil at the time).  

The taste is hard to describe, although I remember it fondly.  It was
most certainly more "candy" than say a modern "Power Bar."  Sort of
a toffee injected with vitamins.  The chocolate Power Bar is a rough
approximation of the taste.  Strawberry sucked.

Man, these were my "60's."

Nope, I've answered each question posed, and most were answered multiple
times.

If gamma ray bursters are extragalactic, would absorption from the
galaxy be expected?  How transparent is the galactic core to gamma
rays?

How much energy does a burster put out?  I know energy depends on
distance, which is unknown.  An answer of the form _X_ ergs per
megaparsec^2 is OK.

(References: deleted to move this to a new thread)

"To put it as simply as possible: *I am not a Muslim*.[...] I do not
 accept the charge of apostacy, because I have never in my adult life
 affirmed any belief, and what one has not affirmed one can not be
 said to have apostasized from.  The Islam I know states clearly that
 'there can be no coercion in matters of religion'.  The many Muslims
 I respect would be horrified by the idea that they belong to their
 faith *purely by virtue of birth*, and that a person who freely chose
 not to be a Muslim could therefore be put to death."
    	    	    	    	Salman Rushdie, "In Good Faith", 1990

"God, Satan, Paradise, and Hell all vanished one day in my fifteenth
 year, when I quite abruptly lost my faith.  [...]and afterwards, to
 prove my new-found atheism, I bought myself a rather tasteless ham
 sandwich, and so partook for the first time of the forbidden flesh of
 the swine.  No thunderbolt arrived to strike me down. [...] From that
 day to this I have thought of myself as a wholly seculat person."
    	    	    	    	Salman Rushdie, "In God We Trust", 1985
 
Only a functional illiterate with absolutely no conception of the
nature of the novel could think such a thing.  I'll accept it
(reluctantly) from mobs in Pakistan, but not from you.  What is
presented in the fictional dream of a demented character cannot by the
wildest stretch of the imagination be considered a reflection on the
actual Mohammad.  What's worse, the novel doesn't present the
Mahound/Mohammed character in any worse light than secular histories
of Islam; in particular, there is no "lewd" misrepresentation of his
life or that of his wives.

Don't hold back; he's considered an apostate and a blasphemer.
However, it's not for his writing in _The Satanic Verses_, but for
what people have accepted as a propagandistic version of what is
contained in that book.  I have yet to find *one single muslim* who
has convinced me that they have read the book.  Some have initially
claimed to have done so, but none has shown more knowledge of the book
than a superficial Newsweek story might impart, and all have made
factual misstatements about events in the book.

I'll keep an eye out for it.  I have a counter-proposal: I suggest
that you see the Viking hardcover by Salman Rushdie called _The
Satanic Verses_.  Perhaps then you'll understand.

Pat sez;

Yeah, but a windscreen cut down most of it.  Canopies ended it completely.

Of course, the environment in space continues to suck :-)

-Tommy Mac

Peter,  there's a radiosity package ahead. The only problem is: there 
are a few miles to sail ... ;-^

Let's be serious... I'm working on a radiosity package, written in C++.
I would like to make it public domain.  I'll announce it in c.g. the minute
I finished it. 

That were the good news. The bad news: It'll take another 2 months (at least) 
to finish it. 

In the meantime you may have a look at the file
  Radiosity_code.tar.Z
located at
  compute1.cc.ncsu.edu

(there are some other locations; have a look at archie to get the nearest)

Hope that'll help.

Yours

Stephan

Good question.  I'm sure some biologist could answer better than I,
but animals brains are just set up differently.

Animals *can* be trained, but if they're instincts serve them well, there is
no reason to contradict them.

Hi there,
  I am looking for advice on software/hardware package for making, 
storing and processing of pictures. The ideal software would allow me to
cahnge size of the picture, edit it ( it means add text below, above...) 
and the most important is it would have DOS command interface...
Thank you in advance...
emanuel marciniak
the bank of new york.. 

The equation of the sphere through the 4 points (x1,y1,z1),...,(x4,y4,z4) is
  | x^2+y^2+z^2  x1^2+y1^2+z1^2  ...  x4^2+y4^2+z4^2 |
  |      x             x1        ...        x4       |
  |      y             y1        ...        y4       | = 0
  |      z             z1        ...        z4       |
  |      1             1         ...        1        |
When this 5 by 5 determininant is expanded on its first column you get the
equation in the form
  A(x^2+y^2+z^2) + Bx + Cy + Dz + E = 0
If you need the center and radius, jyst divide through by A (it cannot be
zero if the 4 given points form a non-degenerate tetrahedron) and complete
the square on x, y, and z to obtain
  (x-xc)^2 + (y-yc)^2 + (z-zc)^2 = r^2

What I've been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior.
That is, it doesn't take much work to be moral, but it certainly does to
be immoral (in some cases).  Also, I've said that morality is a remnant
of evolution.  Our moral system is based on concepts well practiced in
the animal kingdom.

But, this doesn't get us anywhere.  Your particular beliefs are irrelevant
unless you can share them or discuss them...

Could someone explain the difference between Tom Gaskins' two books:

  o  PEXLIB Programming Manual
  o  PHIGS Programming Manual

Why would I want to buy one book vs the other book?  I have an 80386
running SCO UNIX (X11R4) on my desktop, a SUN IV/360 in my lab, and 
access to a variety of other systems (Alliant FX/2800, Cray Y/MP) on
the network.  Mostly, we would like to do 3D modeling/visualization
of rat, rabbit, monkey, and human brain structure.

Thanks, AJ

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander-James Annala
Principal Investigator
Neuroscience Image Analysis Network
HEDCO Neuroscience Building, Fifth Floor
University of Southern California
University Park
Los Angeles, CA 90089-2520

<In article <31MAR199321091163@juliet.caltech.edu<, lmh@juliet.caltech.edu (Henling, Lawrence M.) writes...
<<Atheism (Greek 'a' not + 'theos' god)  Belief that there is no god.
<<Agnosticism (Greek 'a' not + ~ 'gnostein ?' know) Belief that it is
<<  not possible to determine if there is a god.

<No.  Agnosticism as you have here defined it is a positive belief--a
<belief that it is not possible to determine the existence of any gods.
<That's a belief I'm inclined to reject.  You have also defined atheism
<here as a positive belief--that there is no god.  A fairly large number
<of atheists on alt.atheism reject this definition, instead holding that
<atheism is simply the absence of belief in a god.  Michael Martin, in
<_Atheism: A Philosophical Justification_, distinguishes strong atheism

 My mistake. I will have to get a newer dictionary and read the 
follow up line.

 ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^

 Can we assume that this guy studied advertising and not chemistry?  Granted 
it probably a great advertising gimic, but it doesn't sound at all practical.

Henry, I made the assumption that he who gets there firstest with the mostest
wins. 

Ohhh, you want to put in FINE PRINT which says "Thou shall do wonderous R&D
rather than use off-the-shelf hardware"? Sorry, didn't see that in my copy.
Most of the Pournellesque proposals run along the lines of <some dollar
amount> reward for <some simple goal>.  

You go ahead and do your development, I'll buy off the shelf at higher cost (or
even Russian; but I also assume that there'd be some "Buy US" provos in there)
and be camped out in the Moon while you are launching and assembling little
itty-bitty payloads in LEO with your laser or gas gun.  And working out the
bugs of assembly & integration in LEO. 

Oh, hey, could I get a couple of CanadARMs tuned for the lunar environment?  I
wanna do some teleoperated prospecting while I'm up there...

I was wondering if anyone knows where I can get more information about
the graphics in the WingCommander series, and the RealSpace system they use.
I think it's really awesome, and wouldn't mind being able to use similar
features in programs.  Thanks in advance.

Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
exploration.

Basically get the eci-freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth..
You think this is crazy. Well in a way it is, but in a way it is reality.

There is a billin the congress to do just that.. Basically to make it so
expensive to mine minerals in the US, unless you can by off the inspectors or
tax collectors.. ascially what I understand from talking to a few miner friends 
of mine, that they (the congress) propose to have a tax on the gross income of
the mine, versus the adjusted income, also the state governments have there
normal taxes. So by the time you get done, paying for materials, workers, and
other expenses you can owe more than what you made.
BAsically if you make a 1000.00 and spend 500. ofor expenses, you can owe
600.00 in federal taxes.. Bascially it is driving the miners off the land.. And
the only peopel who benefit are the eco-freaks.. 

Basically to get back to my beginning statement, is space is the way to go
cause it might just get to expensive to mine on earth because of either the
eco-freaks or the protectionist.. 
Such fun we have in these interesting times..

Is there any difference in saying 

"Absolute Truth exists, but some people think its a lie"

and

"Truth is relative" ?

I think there is:  in both examples, the first statement is a
fundamental disagreement between at least two people; the 
second statement is agreed upon by all.

To put it another way, someone who says objective values exist
does not agree that values are subjective.

I've got the 6.0 spec (obviously since I quoted it in my last posting). 
My gripe about TIFF is that it's far too complicated and nearly
infinitely easier to write than to read, which I think hurts your
acceptance by anything that will need to read those images (e.g.,
paint programs).

In a nutshell, I don't think TIFF is salvageable unless the fat is
trimmed significantly- and then it wouldn't be TIFF anymore.  They
keep trying to cut it back, but it's late now.  Maybe they >will< fix it,
and change that magic number to signify the lack of compatibility. 
That would probably make me happy.

I am looking for a package which takes as inputs a set
of geometric objects defined by unions of convex polytopes
specified in some manner, say by inequalities and equalities,
and determines in some reasonable form things like
intersections, unions, etc. etc..

Does anyone know where I can find such a thing?

Help!  I'm trying to program my VGA!  I've got it working
with in pascal with the following routines for mode $13h
(320*200*256).  I've got a VESA compatable Trident 8900C w/1meg
and need to program in 1024*768 mode.  I don't care how many colors.
 
Could someone take this code and help me write 2 new procedures to
replace them so that it'll work in 1024*768*16 or 1024*768*256?
 
That'd be GREAT!  Thanks...
 
Here is the code I currently have for 320*200*256 mode:
 
  Procedure GraphMode;
 
    Begin { VideoMode }
      Asm
        Mov  AH,00
        Mov  AL,13h
        Int  10h
      End;
    End;  { VideoMode }
 
  Procedure PlotPoint (x, y, c : Integer);
 
    Begin
      Mem[$A000:x+y*320]:=c;
    End;
 
-- 

See, there you go again, saying that a moral act is only significant
if it is "voluntary."  Why do you think this?

And anyway, humans have the ability to disregard some of their instincts.

You are attaching too many things to the term "moral," I think.
Let's try this:  is it "good" that animals of the same species
don't kill each other.  Or, do you think this is right? 

Or do you think that animals are machines, and that nothing they do
is either right nor wrong?

Those weren't arbitrary killings.  They were slayings related to some sort
of mating ritual or whatnot.

Yes it was, but I still don't understand your distinctions.  What
do you mean by "consider?"  Can a small child be moral?  How about
a gorilla?  A dolphin?  A platypus?  Where is the line drawn?  Does
the being need to be self aware?

What *do* you call the mechanism which seems to prevent animals of
the same species from (arbitrarily) killing each other?  Don't
you find the fact that they don't at all significant?

The Roman Catholic conservatives are coming out in the open to line
up with Pat Robertson and his ultra Right Wing Christian Coalition.
Former Secretary of Education William Bennet, a Roman Catholic, stood
beside the Christian Coalition's spokesman Ralph Reed at a March 3
conference in Washington.  The purpose of the conference was to
publish results of a Christian Coalition poll which was designed
to prove that the Republican party would lose major support if it
backed away from the "Family Values" positons of the '92 convention.

Conservative Catholics have swung behind Robertson's organization
with political expertise, legal assistance and high tech communications
support.

The Catholic Campaign for  American, designed as a Catholic version
of the Moral Majority, was founded by Marlene Elwell and Tom Wykes.
Ms. Elwell has been with Robertson since the days of his Freedom
Council in 1985 and worked for him in his presidential bid in 1988.

Ms. Elwell was hired by Domino's Pizza magnate, Tom Monaghan, in 1989
to manage Legatus, a "nonpolitical", Catholic businessmen's group.
Membership is limited to Catholics who head corporations with a least $4
million in annual revenues.  Relying on a network of wealthy contacts
at Legatus, Elwell and Wykes had little trouble forming and funding the
Catholic Campaign.

The Campaign's list of national committee members includes U.S. Rep.
Robert K. Dornan, Phyllis Schlafly of the Eagle Forum, the lovely
Pat Buchanan and Rev. Richard J. Neuhaus.   Also on the national
committee is Keith Fournier, a Catholic who heads Pat Robertson's
American Center for Law and Justice.  Another Catholic, Thomas
Patrick Monaghan, senior counsel of Robertson's ACLJ, is also an
active supporter of the Catholic Campaign.

The board of directors includes Frank Shakespeare, broadcasting exec
and former U.S. ambassador to the Pope, Wall Street executive Frank
Lynch, former Reagan official Richard V. Allen, Bishop Rene Gracida
of Corpus Christi and Mary Ellen Bork, wife of unsuccessful Supreme
Court nominee Robert Bork.

In the Winter 1992 issue of _Campaign Update_ the organization's
quarterly newsletter, Rocco L. Martino, a Philadelphia business
that must finally be cast aside and replaced by the true meaning of
our constitution."

Oh yes, the organization's "national ecclesisatical advisor" is
Catholic politician Cardinal John J. O'Connor of New York.

: In article <11838@vice.ICO.TEK.COM>, bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert
: >   Someone spank me if I'm wrong, but didn't Lord, Liar, or Lunatic
: >   originate with C.S. Lewis?  Who's this Campollo fellow anyway?

: I do think so, and isn't there a clear connection with the "I do
: believe, because it is absurd" notion by one of the original
: Christians (Origen?).

There is a similar statement attributed to Anselm, "I believe so that
I may understand". In both cases reason is somewhat less exalted than
anyone posting here could accept, which means that neither statement
can be properly analysed in this venue.

Was that post for real? I thought it was a late April Fool joke. Some of it
seemed a bit over the top even by McElwaine/Abian/etc standards :-)

Archive-name: space/intro
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:10 $

    FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ON SCI.SPACE/SCI.ASTRO

    INTRODUCTION

    This series of linked messages is periodically posted to the Usenet
groups sci.space and sci.astro in an attempt to provide good answers to
frequently asked questions and other reference material which is worth
preserving. If you have corrections or answers to other frequently asked
questions that you would like included in this posting, send email to
leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech).

    If you don't want to see the FAQ, add 'Frequently Asked Questions' to
your KILL file for this group (if you're not reading this with a newsreader
that can kill articles by subject, you're out of luck).

    The FAQ volume is excessive right now and will hopefully be trimmed down
by rewriting and condensing over time. The FAQ postings are available in
the Ames SPACE archive in FAQ/faq<#>.

    Good summaries will be accepted in place of the answers given here. The
point of this is to circulate existing information, and avoid rehashing old
answers. Better to build on top than start again. Nothing more depressing
than rehashing old topics for the 100th time. References are provided
because they give more complete information than any short generalization.

    Questions fall into three basic types:

    1) Where do I find some information about space?

    Try your local public library first. The net is not a good place to ask
    for general information. Ask INDIVIDUALS (by email) if you must. There
    are other sources, use them, too. The net is a place for open ended
    discussion.

    2) I have an idea which would improve space flight?

    Hope you aren't surprised, but 9,999 out of 10,000 have usually been
    thought of before. Again, contact a direct individual source for
    evaluation. NASA fields thousands of these each day.

    3) Miscellanous queries.

    These are addressed on a case-by-case basis in the following series of
    FAQ postings.

    SUGGESTIONS FOR BETTER NETIQUETTE

    Read news.announce.newusers if you're on Usenet.
    Minimize cross references, [Do you REALLY NEED to?]
    Edit "Subject:" lines, especially if you're taking a tangent.
    Send mail instead, avoid posting follow ups. (1 mail message worth
	100 posts).
    Internet mail readers: send requests to add/drop to SPACE-REQUEST
	not SPACE.
    Read all available articles before posting a follow-up. (Check all
	references.)
    Cut down attributed articles (leave only the points you're
	responding to; remove signatures and headers). Summarize!
    Put a return address in the body (signature) of your message (mail
	or article), state your institution, etc. Don't assume the
	'reply' function of mailers will work.
    Use absolute dates. Post in a timely way. Don't post what everyone
	will get on TV anyway.
    Some editors and window systems do character count line wrapping:
	keep lines under 80 characters for those using ASCII terminals
	(use carriage returns).

    INDEX TO LINKED POSTINGS

    I've attempted to break the postings up into related areas. There isn't
    a keyword index yet; the following lists the major subject areas in each
    posting. Only those containing astronomy-related material are posted to
    sci.astro (indicated by '*' following the posting number).

    #	Contents

    1*	Introduction
	    Suggestions for better netiquette
	    Index to linked postings
	    Notes on addresses, phone numbers, etc.
	    Contributors

    2*	Network resources
	    Overview
	    Mailing lists
	    Periodically updated information
	    Warning about non-public networks

    3*	Online (and some offline) sources of images, data, etc.
	    Introduction
	    Viewing Images
	    Online Archives
		NASA Ames
		NASA Astrophysics Data System
		NASA Jet Propulsion Lab (Mission Information and Images)
		NASA Langley (Technical Reports)
		NASA Spacelink
		National Space Science Data Center
		Space Telescope Science Institute Electronic Info. Service
		Starcat
		Astronomical Databases
		Astronomy Programs
		Orbital Element Sets
		SPACE Digest
	    Landsat & NASA Photos
	    Planetary Maps
	    Cometary Orbits

    4*	Performing calculations and interpreting data formats
	    Computing spacecraft orbits and trajectories
	    Computing planetary positions
	    Computing crater diameters from Earth-impacting asteroids
	    Map projections and spherical trignometry
	    Performing N-body simulations efficiently
	    Interpreting the FITS image format
	    Sky (Unix ephemeris program)
	    Three-dimensional star/galaxy coordinates

    5*	References on specific areas
	    Publishers of space/astronomy material
	    Careers in the space industry
	    DC-X single-stage to orbit (SSTO) program
	    How to name a star after a person
	    LLNL "great exploration"
	    Lunar Prospector
	    Lunar science and activities
	    Orbiting Earth satellite histories
	    Spacecraft models
	    Rocket propulsion
	    Spacecraft design
	    Esoteric propulsion schemes (solar sails, lasers, fusion...)
	    Spy satellites
	    Space shuttle computer systems
	    SETI computation (signal processing)
	    Amateur satellies & weather satellites
	    Tides

    6*	Constants and equations for calculations

    7*	Astronomical Mnemonics

    8	Contacting NASA, ESA, and other space agencies/companies
	    NASA Centers / Arianespace / ESA / NASDA / Soyuzkarta / Space
		Camp / Space Commerce Corporation / Spacehab / SPOT Image
	    Other commercial space businesses

    9	Space shuttle answers, launch schedules, TV coverage
	    Shuttle launchings and landings; schedules and how to see them
	    Why does the shuttle roll just after liftoff?
	    How to receive the NASA TV channel, NASA SELECT
	    Amateur radio frequencies for shuttle missions
	    Solid Rocket Booster fuel composition

    10	Planetary probes - Historical Missions
	    US planetary missions
	    Mariner (Venus, Mars, & Mercury flybys and orbiters)
	    Pioneer (Moon, Sun, Venus, Jupiter, and Saturn flybys and orbiters)
	    Ranger (Lunar lander and impact missions)
	    Lunar Orbiter (Lunar surface photography)
	    Surveyor (Lunar soft landers)
	    Viking (Mars orbiters and landers)
	    Voyager (Outer planet flybys)
	    Soviet planetary missions
	    Soviet Lunar probes
	    Soviet Venus probes
	    Soviet Mars probes
	    Japanese planetary missions
	    Planetary mission references

    11	Upcoming planetary probes - missions and schedules
	    Cassini
	    Galileo
	    Magellan
	    Mars Observer
	    TOPEX/Poseidon
	    Ulysses
	    Other space science missions
	    Proposed missions

    12	Controversial questions
	    What happened to the Saturn V plans
	    Why data from space missions isn't immediately available
	    Risks of nuclear (RTG) power sources for space probes
	    Impact of the space shuttle on the ozone layer
	    How long can a human live unprotected in space
	    How the Challenger astronauts died
	    Using the shuttle beyond Low Earth Orbit
	    The "Face on Mars"

    13	Space activist/interest/research groups and space publications
	    Groups
	    Publications
	    Undocumented Groups

    14	How to become an astronaut

    15	Orbital and Planetary Launch Services

    NOTES ON ADDRESSES, PHONE NUMBERS, ETC.

    Unless otherwise specified, telephone numbers, addresses, and so on are
    for the United States of America. Non-US readers should remember to add
    the country code for telephone calls, etc.

    CREDITS

    Eugene Miya started a series of linked FAQ postings some years ago which
    inspired (and was largely absorbed into) this set.

    Peter Yee and Ron Baalke have and continue to spend a lot of their own
    time setting up the SPACE archives at NASA Ames and forwarding official
    NASA announcements.

    Many other people have contributed material to this list in the form of
    old postings to sci.space and sci.astro which I've edited. Please let me
    know if corrections need to be made. Contributors I've managed to keep
    track of are:

    0004847546@mcimail.com (Francis Reddy)	- map projections
    ad038@yfn.ysu.edu (Steven Fisk)		- publication refs.
    akerman@bill.phy.queensu.CA (Richard Akerman)   - crater diameters
    alweigel@athena.mit.edu (Lisa Weigel)	- SEDS info
    aoab314@emx.utexas.edu (Srinivas Bettadpur) - tides
    awpaeth@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Alan Wm Paeth) - map projections
    aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)		- Great Exploration
    baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)	- planetary probe schedules
    bankst@rata.vuw.ac.nz (Timothy Banks)	- map projections,
	variable star analysis archive
    bern@uni-trier.de (Jochen Bern)		- German mnemonic translation
    brosen@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (Bernie Rosen)	- Space Camp
    bschlesinger@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Barry Schlesinger)   - FITS format
    cew@venera.isi.edu (Craig E. Ward)		- space group contact info
    chapin@cbnewsc.att.com (Tom Chapin)		- planetary positions
    cunnida@tenet.edu (D. Alan Cunningham)	- NASA Spacelink
    cyamamot@kilroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Cliff Yamamoto) - orbital elements
    datri@convex.com (Anthony Datri)		- PDS/VICAR viewing software
    daver@sjc.mentorg.com (Dave Rickel)		- orbit formulae
    dlbres10@pc.usl.edu (Phil Fraering)		- propulsion
    eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder)		- Saturn V plans, SRBs
    eugene@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)	- introduction,
	NASA contact info, started FAQ postings
    french@isu.isunet.edu (Patrick M. French)	- space group contact info
    g@telesoft.com (Gary Morris)		- amateur radio info
    gaetz@cfa.harvard.edu (Terry Gaetz)		- N-body calculations,
	orbital dynamics
    grandi@noao.edu (Steve Grandi)		- planetary positions
    greer%utd201.dnet%utadnx@utspan.span.nasa.gov (Dale M. Greer)   - constants
    henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)	- survival in vacuum,
	astronaut how-to, Challenger disaster, publication refs, DC-X
    higgins@fnal.bitnet (William Higgins)	- RTGs, publishers,
	shuttle landings, spysats, propulsion, "Face on Mars"
    hmueller@cssun.tamu.edu (Hal Mueller)	- map projections,
    jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)	- launch services
    jim@pnet01.cts.com (Jim Bowery)		- propulsion, launch services
    jnhead@pirl.lpl.arizona.edu (James N. Head) - atmospheric scale heights
    jscotti@lpl.arizona.edu (Jim Scotti)	- planetary positions
    kcarroll@zoo.toronto.edu (Kieran A. Carroll)- refs for spacecraft design
    ken@orion.bitnet (Kenneth Ng)		- RTGs
    kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (Ken Jenks)	- shuttle roll manuever
    klaes@verga.enet.dec.com (Larry Klaes)	- planetary probe history
    leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)		- crater diameters
    lfa@ssi.com (Lou Adornato)			- orbital dynamics
    maury.markowitz@egsgate.fidonet.org (Maury Markowitz)   - propulsion
    max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis)	- equations
    mbellon@mcdurb.Urbana.Gould.COM		- N-body calculations
    mcconley@phoenix.Princeton.edu (Marc Wayne Mcconley)    - space careers
    msb@sq.com (Mark Brader)			- Mariner 1 info.
    mwm@cmu.edu (Mark Maimone)			- SPACE Digest
    nickw@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Dr. Nick Watkins)	- models, spysats
    ohainaut@eso.org (Olivier R. Hainaut)	- publishers, STARCAT
    oneil@aio.jsc.nasa.gov (Graham O'Neil)	- Lunar Prospector
    panama@cup.portal.com (Kenneth W Durham)	- cometary orbits, IAU
    paul.blase@nss.fidonet.org (Paul Blase)	- propulsion
    pjs@plato.jpl.nasa.gov (Peter Scott)	- RTGs
    pschleck@unomaha.edu (Paul W. Schleck)	- AMSAT, ARRL contact info
    rdb@mel.cocam.oz.au (Rodney Brown)		- propulsion refs
    rja7m@phil.cs.virginia.edu (Ran Atkinson)	- FTPable astro. programs
    rjungcla@ihlpb.att.com (R. Michael Jungclas)- models
    roelle@sigi.jhuapl.edu (Curt Roelle)	- German mnemonic translation
    seal@leonardo.jpl.nasa.gov (David Seal)	- Cassini mission schedule
    shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)	- photos, shuttle landings
    smith@sndpit.enet.dec.com (Willie Smith)	- photos
    stephen@gpwd.gp.co.nz (Stephen Dixon)	- shuttle audio frequencies
    sterner@warper.jhuapl.edu (Ray Sterner)	- planetary positions
    stooke@vaxr.sscl.uwo.ca (Phil Stooke)	- planetary maps
    ted_anderson@transarc.com (Ted Anderson)	- propulsion
    terry@astro.as.utexas.edu (Terry Hancock)	- NASA center info
    thorson@typhoon.atmos.coloState.edu (Bill Thorson) - FITS info
    tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu (Todd L. Masco)	- SPACE Digest
    tom@ssd.csd.harris.com (Tom Horsley)	- refs for algorithms
    veikko.makela@helsinki.fi (Veikko Makela)	- orbital element sets
    Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org (Wales Larrison) - groups & publications
    wayne@csri.utoronto.ca (Wayne Hayes)	- constants
    weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) - Voyager history
    yamada@yscvax.ysc.go.jp (Yoshiro Yamada)	- ISAS/NASDA missions
    yee@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Peter Yee)		- AMES archive server,
	propulsion

    In Net memoriam:
	Ted Flinn

What in blazes is going on with Wayne Matson and gang
down in Alabama?  I also heard an unconfirmed rumor that
Aerospace Ambassadors have disappeared.  Can anyone else
confirm??

  [snip]

Honest, it just ended like that, I swear!  

Hmmmm...I recognize the warning signs...alternating polite and
rude...coming into newsgroup with huge chip on shoulder...calls
people names and then makes nice...whirrr...click...whirrr

"Clam" Bake Timmons = Bill "Shit Stirrer Connor"

Q.E.D.

Whirr click whirr...Frank O'Dwyer might also be contained
in that shell...pop stack to determine...whirr...click..whirr

"Killfile" Keith Allen Schneider = Frank "Closet Theist" O'Dwyer =

the mind reels.  Maybe they're all Bobby Mozumder.

-- 

Nope, Germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws.  The 
ethnic Germans who have lived in Russia for over 100 years 
automatically become citizens if they move to Germany, but the
Turks who are now in their third generation in Germany can't.
It's not a very good example to show citizenship without descent.

Karl

I could give much the same testimonial about my experience as a scout
back in the 1960s. The issue wasn't gays, but the principles were the
same. Thanks for a well put testimonial. Stan Krieger and his kind who
think this discussion doesn't belong here and his intolerance is the
only acceptable position in scouting should take notice. The BSA has
been hijacked by the religious right, but some of the core values have
survived in spite of the leadership and some scouts and former scouts
haven't given up. Seeing a testimonial like this reminds me that
scouting is still worth fighting for.

On a cautionary note, you must realize that if your experience with this
camp leader was in the BSA you may be putting him at risk by publicizing
it. Word could leak out to the BSA gestapo.

Every time somone writes something and says it is merely describing the norm,
it is infact re-inforcing that norm upon those programmed not to think for
themselves. The motto is dangerous in itself, it tells the world that every
*true* American is god-fearing, and puts down those who do not fear gods. It
doesn't need anyone to make it dangerous, it does a good job itself by just
existing on your currency.

The Desert Brat

Hi!

I don't know much about Mormons, and I want to know about serious independent
studies about the Book of Mormon.

I don't buy the 'official' story about the gold original taken to heaven,
but haven't read the Book of Mormon by myself (I have to much work learning
Biblical Hebrew), I will appreciate any comment about the results of study
in style, vocabulary, place-names, internal consistency, and so on.

For example: There is evidence for one-writer or multiple writers?
There are some mention about events, places, or historical persons later
discovered by archeologist?

Yours in Collen

Andres Grino Brandt               Casilla 14801 - Santiago 21
agrino@enkidu.mic.cl                        Chile

Good thing i stuck in a couple of question marks up there.

I seem to recall, somebody built  or at least proposed a wasp waisetd
Passenger civil transport.  I thought it was a 727,  but maybe it
was a DC- 8,9???   Sure it had a funny passenger compartment,
but on the other hand  it seemed to save fuel.

I thought Area rules  applied even before transonic speeds,  just
not as badly.

Hi there,

I've made a VGA mode 13h graphics library available via FTP.  I originally
wrote the routines as a kind of exercise for myself, but perhaps someone
here will find them useful.  They are certainly useable as they are, but
are missing some higher-level functionality.  They're intended more as an
intro to mode 13h programming, a starting point.

*** The library assumes a 386 processor, but it is trivial to modify it
*** for a 286.  If enough people ask, I'll make the mods and re-post it as a
*** different version.

The routines are written in assembly (TASM) and are callable from C.  They
are fairly simple, but I've found them to be very fast (for my purposes,
anyway).  Routines are included to enter and exit mode 13h, define a
"virtual screen", put and get pixels, put a pixmap (rectangular image with
no transparent spots), put a sprite (image with see-thru areas), copy
areas of the virtual screen into video memory, etc.  I've also included a
simple C routine to draw a line, as well as a C routine to load a 256
color GIF image into a buffer.  I also wrote a quick'n'dirty(tm) demo program
that bounces a bunch of sprites around behind three "windows".

The whole package is available on spang.camosun.bc.ca in /pub/dos/vgl.zip 
It is zipped with pkzip 2.04g

It is completely in the public domain, as far as I'm concerned.  Do with
it whatever you like.  However, it'd be nice to get credit where it's due,
and maybe an e-mail telling me you like it (if you don't like it don't bother)

The file and contents listings for:

Knowledge Media Resource Library: Graphics 1
Knowledge Media Resource Library: Audio 1

Worse?  Maybe not, but it is definately a violation of the
rules the US govt. supposedly follows.  Maybe the others
should be changed to?  But I'm not personally as concerned
about the anthem since I don't come across it in daily
nearly unavoidable routines.

I don't despise the people...just their opinions.  I meant
when chatting with the ones who refuse to listen to any idea
other than their own...then it just becomes an exercise for
amusement.

Seems like a lot of trouble to go to. Its probably better to   
invest in newer launch systems. I don't think a big cost advantage
for using Russian systems will last for very long (maybe a few years). 
Lockheed would be the place to ask, since you would probably have to buy 
the Proton from them (they market the Proton world wide except Russia). 
They should know a lot about the possibilities, I haven't heard them
propose US launches, so I assume they looked into it and found it 
unprofitable. 

Yes...

Comparable to the Zenit I suppose, but since it looks like
nothing will be built there, you might just as well pick any
spot.

The message is: to launch now while its cheap and while Russia and
Kazakstan are still cooperating. Later, the story may be different.

TRH> I hope you're not going to flame him.  Please give him the same coutesy you'
TRH> ve given me.

But you have been courteous and therefore received courtesy in return.  This
person instead has posted one of the worst arguments I have ever seen
made from the pro-Christian people.  I've known several Jesuits who would
laugh in his face if he presented such an argument to them.

Let's ignore the fact that it's not a true trilemma for the moment (nice
word Maddi, original or is it a real word?) and concentrate on the
liar, lunatic part.

The argument claims that no one would follow a liar, let alone thousands
of people.  Look at L. Ron Hubbard.  Now, he was probably not all there,
but I think he was mostly a liar and a con-artist.  But look at how many
thousands of people follow Dianetics and Scientology.  I think the 
Baker's and Swaggert along with several other televangelists lie all
the time, but look at the number of follower they have.

As for lunatics, the best example is Hitler.  He was obviously insane,
his advisors certainly thought so.  Yet he had a whole country entralled
and came close to ruling all of Europe.  How many Germans gave their lives
for him?  To this day he has his followers.

I'm just amazed that people still try to use this argument.  It's just
so obviously *wrong*.

Oh, Your Highness?   And exactly why "should" the quotation
marks enclose "laws," not "must."

In case you didn't notice, it's the function of the "must"
that I wish to ironicise.

Perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour
died out, and we are left with the ones that did evolve such
behaviour, entirely by chance.

Are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an
organism evolves cooperative behaviour?

What about the natural morality of bee dance?

Hello,
  I've been trying to bump map a gif onto a sphere for a while and I
can't seem to get it to work.  Image mapping works, but not bump
mapping.  Here's a simple file I was working with, could some kind
soul tell me whats wrong with this.....

#include "colors.inc"
#include "shapes.inc"
#include "textures.inc"
 
camera {
  location  <0 1 -3>
  direction <0 0 1.5>
  up        <0 1 0>
  right     <1.33 0 0>
  look_at   <0 1 2>
}
 
object { light_source { <2 4 -3> color White }
       }
 
object {
  sphere { <0 1 2> 1 }
   texture {
     bump_map { 1 <0 1 2> gif "surf.gif"}
   }
}

NOTE: surf.gif is a plasma fractal from Fractint that is using the
landscape palette map.

	Thanks in advance
	   -Daniel-

... or consider the thousands in Central America killed by those brave
CIA/NSC sponsored "Freedom Fighters."

Thus far, Slick Willie is a piker.

							spl

hi guys
 like all people in this group i'm a fans of fractal and render sw
 my favourite are fractint pov & 3dstudio 2.0 
 now listen my ideas
 i'have just starting now to be able to use 3dstudio quite well
 so i'm simulating a full animation of a f1 grand prix
 unfortanatly just some lap(10?)
 i' m very interested about all kind of .prj .3ds and so on
 concerning about cars or parts of its (motors wheel ...)
 (dxf are good enough)
 does anyone have object to give me to complete my hard animation

 anyway any exchanges about object material project will
 be VERY APRECIATE!!!!!

 is there a ftp site where I can find its?

 i' m looking for .pov files too
 (i 'm interested about cpu time comparision rendering images on
 pov & 3dstusio)

 thank to all

If I have a habit that I really want to break, and I am willing to
make whatever sacrifice I need to make to break it, then I do so.
There have been bad habits of mine that I've decided to put forth the
effort to break, and I've done so; there have been other bad habits
that I've decided are not worth the effort to break.  It's my choice,
either way.

I am my own master.  I choose what I want to do.  I weigh the benefits
of my actions against their consequences, and I use my experience to
help me deal with the unexpected, which in turn make me more experienced.

I don't always succeed, but I never fail, either -- I learn.

Do *you* have any habits you can't break?  Why not?

I have arrived at my own understanding of Christianity, just as you've
probably arrived at your own understanding of Islam that is most
likely very different from the way a Moslem thinks of his religion.
Are you "unable to master your lack of desire to understand even the
slightest concept of the Quran"?  If that's different, then how is it
different from what you accuse me of?  Can I accuse you of having no
desire to understand even the slightest concept of atheism?

Of COURSE not.  That's disgusting.  For centuries, religions have been
discriminating on sex and treating women as second-class humans;
that's one of the reasons I renounced my Christianity.

No.  I don't insult people.  Period.  It's not in my nature, and it's
not something that I want to do, either.

Not yet -- but my life is the ground I use to practice on.  The fun is
in the getting there!

We don't start out perfect; we've got to strive to be something
better.  I know my shortcomings, and I know my strengths, and I live
my life according to the decisions I make, and I am content to abide
with the consequences of my decisions as easily as I'll accept the
praise for them.  There have been times in my life when I've made
mistakes, yes; I try to never make the same mistake twice.

I regard Christ as a myth.  I feel that there are far too many people
offering far too many interpretations of what he supposedly said and
did.  The only person who can really judge me is *me*.  I choose the
roads I travel, and I decide whether or not I want to reach the end of
any given road or turn back -- and as long as I don't *always* turn
back, there's no shame in it.  When I need help, I seek out my friends.

And you don't have a clue about what I'm saying, either.  Open your
eyes and SEE; open your ears and LISTEN.  I'm not just spouting off
empty words.  This is my LIFE, this is what gives me MEANING.

Huh?  You're going WAY off the track here.

I say my mother loves me.  How do I know, you ask?  I can point to
definite things she's done for me, and I can even just bring her to
you so you can ask her, face-to-face.

You say your deity loves you.  How do you know, I ask?  You can't even
convince me that it exists!

If any god dangles 'heaven' before me like a carrot, promising untold
pleasures to me if I'll only suspend my disbelief and ignore my
rationality for just this once, then I would choose 'hell'.  I can
*not* lie to myself to placate another being, no matter how powerful
it is.

Note also that there are several gods trying to lure me this way:
Yahweh, Allah, Zeus, Odin, Ra...  Please give me a solid reason to
choose one of them over the others.

[ description of Kendigism deleted -- hee hee! ]

That paragraph demonstrates that you haven't listened to a single word
I've said.

Have you ever gone to an amusement park?  Why?  I mean, after a few
hours, it closes, and nothing's different except that you're a few
dollars lighter.  Going to the amusement park doesn't do you any good
at all.  Why do you do such a meaningless thing?

The answer is that you think it's fun.  You play the skee-ball over
and over because you'd like to get better at it, even though you're
not going to win anything better than a stuffed animal even if you
blow ten dollars on it.  You ride the roller coaster because it's an
thrilling experience, even though (because?) it scares the dickens out
of you.

In the same way, I think life is fun.  And I don't intend to leave the
amusement park of life until they close down for the night!  :-D

So you (and your holy book) say.  By the same token, therefore, Santa
Claus delivers toys every xmas.  Don't you see?  I have NO REASON to
believe that what you say is true.  Please give me some reason that I
can't similarly apply to Santa Claus.

I can't do it, because your existence means nothing more to me than
just your communications over the net.  You have no more bearing on
nor importance in my life than that; remove it, and you will cease to
be significant to me.

Are you thereby inferring that your deity is nothing more than a
collection of verses in a book, and cannot be supported without
invoking them?

Or do you mean that the existence of your deity (and, in fact, any
other deity that can be written about) is as real as your own
existence?

Why do you believe what you believe?

Hey! Glad to have some serious and constructive contributors in this
newsgroup. I agree 100% on the statement above, you might argue with
Bobby for eons, and he still does not get it, so the best thing is
to spare your mental resources to discuss more interesting issues.

Cheers,
Kent

	Please define "morally straight". 

	And, don't even try saying that "straight", as it is used here, 
implies only hetersexual behavior. [ eg: "straight" as in the slang word 
opposite to "gay" ]

	This is alot like "family values". Everyone is talking about them, 
but misteriously, no one knows what they are.
---

iank@microsoft.com (Ian Kennedy) writes...

More along the lines of Hebrews 12:25-29, I reckon...

	See that you refuse not him that speaks. For if they
	escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much 
	more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that 
	speaks from heaven:

	Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he has promised,
	saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also
	heaven.

	And this word, Yet once more, signifies the removing of
	those things that are shaken, as of things that are made,
	that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

	Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, 
	let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably 
	with reverence and godly fear:

	For our God is a consuming fire.

Or 2nd Thessalonians 1:7-10...

	And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord
	Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
 	In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
	and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

	Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from 
	the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
 	When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be
	admired in all them that believe (because our testimony 
	among you was believed) in that day. 

Kinda gives Flaming a whole new meaning, I reckon. 

			      - < > -

The impression I got from talking with Livingston was that the coming
of the Lord, power-wise, is going to be something that those who are
unprepared can't handle -- kinda like overloading a fuse -- due to 
guilt. Somehow it seems to also apply to the entire physical world as 
we know it. LF suggests that God doesn't want that and has sent Koresh 
as a reminder. 

Seems that those who have been purified through salvation, or that those
protected by the Seals, will be the ones who survive. And no -- I don't 
have a good idea yet what "being shielded by the seals" actually involves 
or how exactly it relates to salvation. (Other than it involves the
marriage of the Bridegroom and the Bride... for those of you Biblical
well versed.)
			     - < > -

Me personally, I'm totally 100% dependent on God through Christ, so 
if God wants me to understand, good. If not, also good. If God wants
to save me, or dispose of me, that's great either way. Being born in
the Spirit, means being part of the Body of Christ (Ephesians 2), so
who and what I was, matters little. * What's important is loving GOD *

Come Nova, Nuke, or Apocalypse -- who cares? Satan might even be able 
to pull off a pretty convincing fake. Big deal. Not worth fearing or 
worrying about though, not before:

		   -* The Greater Glory of GOD *-
 	
Maybe Koresh is right, maybe he isn't, and it should be interesting to 
see the new message (or prophecy). The tour of the Bible I've taken in 
studying the passages he points to in the 3-02 text, has been most re-
warding. But the test of prophecy is still the fruit it bears -- which 
is not yet clear. 

Much much more important is "Charity" -- which by definition *is* --

	                   Love for GOD

(I hope Dear Reader, you've taken all this as an expression of faith, 
 and not a statement of mere fact. Seems many folks get real upset at 
 reminders. ;-)

7. Massacre of Jews in WWII: 6.3 million
8. Massacre of other 'inferior races' in WWII: 10 million
9. Communist purges: 20-30 million? [Socialism is more or less a religion]
10. Catholics V Protestants : quite a few I'd imagine
11. Recent goings on in Bombay/Iodia (sp?) area: ??
12. Disease introduced to Brazilian * oher S.Am. tribes: x million

As to what that headpiece is....

(by chort@crl.nmsu.edu)

SOURCE: AP NEWSWIRE

The Vatican, Home Of Genetic Misfits?

Michael  A. Gillow, noted geneticist, has revealed  some unusual  data
after working undercover in  the Vatican for the past 18 years.   "The
Popehat(tm) is actually an advanced bone spur.", reveals Gillow in his
groundshaking report. Gillow, who had  secretly  studied the innermost
workings of the Vatican since returning from Vietnam in a wheel chair,
first approached the scientific community with his  theory in the late
1950's.

"The  whole hat  thing, that was just a cover  up. The  Vatican didn't
want the Catholic Community(tm) to realize  their  leader  was hefting
nearly  8 kilograms of extraneous  bone  tissue on    the  top of  his
skull.", notes Gillow in his report. "There are whole  laboratories in
the  Vatican  that experiment with tissue  transplants and bone marrow
experiments.  What started as a genetic fluke in the mid 1400's is now
scientifically engineered and bred for. The whole bone transplant idea
started  in  the  mid   sixties  inspired  by   doctor  Timothy  Leary
transplanting deer  bone cells into small white rats." Gillow is quick
to point  out  the  assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II and the
disappearance of Dr.  Leary from the public eye.

"When it becomes time to replace the pope", says Gillow, "The old pope
and the replacement pope are  locked  in a padded  chamber. They  butt
heads much  like  male yaks  fighting for dominance of the  herd.  The
victor emerges and has  earned the privilege of inseminating the choir
boys."

P.

/(Frank DeCenso)
/>
/>I need to prioritize things in my life, and this board is not all that important
/>to me.  

Of course it is.  It forms a very big part of your self-respect.  You come onto 
the board, thinking you're some sort of apologeticist for your faith, and you
routinely get roasted over a grill for stupid theories and unfounded assumptions.

/This board will have
/>to wait until (if ever) I can organize my life to fit it in.  I tried dropping
/>out, but Sieferman coerced me to come back.  He won't this time.

I doubt that Sieferman has anything to do with you dropping out.  

It's probably closer to the truth to say that you don't have the cards to 
play in this game (because you insist on playing from a losing hand), and you're
finally realizing it.  You will lurk on the board, and keep 
quiet for a while, looking for an area where you are *certain* that you 
are correct, and then we'll see you pop back in again.  Of course, you then
will say that you have merely returned because your life is now "in order".

I posted this several days ago for Dave Butler.  He may have missed it - my
Usenet board has changed a little.  Just in case he missed it, here it is again.

Dave Butler writes...
 
From: daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler)
Subject: Re: NEW BIBLICAL CONTRADICTIONS [Fallaciously] ANSWERED (Judas)
Date: Thu Apr  1 20:52:11 1993
 
"I can basically restrict this post to showing the type of evidence Mr DeCenso
has presented, and answering his two questions (and a couple of his spurious
insults and false claims)."
 
MY REPLY...
O.K.
 
DB...
[By the way Mr DeCenso, you really should have looked in the index of your
Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich Greek lexicon.  You would have found that the word in
Acts for "lot" is "kleros," not "CHORION" as stated by Mr Archer, and nowhere
in the very large discussion of kleros in done the to "Theological Dictionary
of the New Testament" by Bromley, is the meaning "burial plot" discussed.  It
discusses the forms of "kleros" (eg: kleros, kleroo, etc), and the various
meanings of "kleros" (eg: "plot of land," and "inheritance"), but mentions
nothing about CHORION or "burial plot." (Why does this not surprise me?) Thus
it would seem to be a very good thing you dumped Archer as a reference.]
 
DB later corrected himself...
_____________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri Apr  2 02:32:11 1993
 
I owe the group an apology.  It is my habit to check my articles before and
after their submission for errors.  In my last article I stated:
 
I was wrong. I admit that I do not have a handle on Greek grammar, and thus
confused "kleros", the second to last word in Acts 1:17 as being the plot of
land discussed.  In actuality it is "chorion", which is the last word Acts
1:18.  Unfortunately my Greek dictionary does not discuss "chorion" so I
cannot report as to the nuances of the word.
 
I don't know if someone else would have caught this, though I am sure that
someone would be able to do so, but I have an aversion to disseminating
mistakes, especially when someone else might use that mistake to prove a point"
 
Vary noble of you Dave.  I didn't want to have to go to x number of sources to
show you wrong.  (Although I am researching CHORION a little).
 
DB...
"Of course the only other reference Mr DeCenso has given is Bullinger.  And
Bullinger uses such ridiculous exegisis that when I accused Mr DeCenso of
actually believing Bullinger, he replied that I misquoted him:
 
of > my response to see what I REALLY said in my posting of this article.
 
 [Actually Mr DeCenso, you said that there was "benefit" to our argument, in
  that it caused to to rediscover Bullinger's exegisis.  I did not realize
  that you would find such garbage beneficial, unless you were convinced by
  it]."
 
Thank you for correcting your restating of my points.
 
DB...
"and Mr DeCenso also replied:
 
Thus I apologize for thinking that even Mr DeCenso could find such "drek"
convincing....he should specify which parts of Bullinger he finds convincing
and quit hiding behind a disingenuous mask of "This is what Bullinger
believed, not necessarily what I believe." So which is it Mr DeCenso? Do you
find the exegisis convincing or not?)"
 
One of my purposes in debating these alleged contradictions with you and
others is to diseminate many different views of possible reconciliations
raised by various Bible scholars and students alike.  When I present MY VIEWS,
I will clearly distinguish them from now on.
 
DB...
"Of course without Archer and Bullinger we find that Mr DeCenso has presented
no Greek exegisis at all, and Mr DeCenso has made a big thing about my not
referring back to the actual Greek.  Thus we find this demand on his part for
quality Greek exegisis to be a hypocritical requirement."
 
Good point.  But in your declaring that these passages are contradictory, you
have produced only superficial reasonings and observations. Nor have you dug
deeper.  I'm glad you have begun in this post.  I will begin Greek studies on
these passages in more depth than I thought necessary, as well.
 
DB...
"It would be appropriate to look at what Mr DeCenso has actually USED as
evidence.  Now we know what he claims for a standard, as he has stated it
often enough:
 
But are these actual standards he has used, or simply empty hyperbole.  Let's
see, he has used (a), and since he is trying to reconcile it to other
passages, we see that he has also used (b).  On the other hand he has
presented no use of:
 
(d) historical context                or
(e) historical content                or
(f) other pertinent historical info   or
(g) cultural context                  or
(h) cultural content                  or
(i) other pertinent cultural info     or
(j) grammatical construction          or even
(k) Hebrew and Greek word studies [remember, Archer and Bullinger don't count]
 
Thus we find his vaunted criteria for exegisis is just empty mouthings."
 
Question:  Do you find such criteria important?  If so, do you plan on starting
to use them to the best of your ability, or will you continue to present
shallow observations (I don't mean this in a bad way).
At this point in our _debates_, I have not found it necessary to present a
total exegetical analysis of these passages, since we seem to keep beating
around the bush and not getting into the core of the verses.  I do not believe
it necessary to use many of the above criteria to refute your arguments re:
Judas in Acts and Matthew, but I will do my best from this point on to use
several of the above criteria, since you desire me to.  I hope you will also.
It will greatly enhance our study of these passages.
 
DB...
"The only thing he has actually used, beyond the passage itself, is any other
passage.  Thus Mr DeCenso should be honest and note that most of his list is
red herring and his only real criteria seems to be:
 
The reason is simple...you are mistating the passages.  You claim that the
PASSAGES contradict one another; I do not see the PASSAGES contradicting one
another.
(1) They may very well be complimentary, as many scholarly sources mention;
(2) Matthew may not be presenting Judas' death, as you claim.  But we'll look
at your defense of this later.
 
Also, the "reward of iniquity" in the Acts PASSAGE may not be the 30 pieces of
silver in Matthew's PASSAGES.  (Although you have a valiant attempt later at
stating why you believe it is).
 
At this beginning stages in our debates, we are laying some Scriptural
groundwork, which will be expanded upon through deeper exegesis.
 
DB...
"Of course the only reason I can see to so drastically reinterpret a passage
as he has done with Judas' death, is to make it agree with another passage so
that both could be considered correct."
 
One of the reasons I have given a different exegetical view of the passages is
that you seem to think the majority of scholarship is wrong in concluding these
passages are complimentary.  However, I see no problem in Tony Rose's
explanation of Judas' death...
 
HOW WOULD YOU EXPLAIN THE INACCURACY BETWEEN JUDAS HANGING
HIMSELF IN MATTHEW 27:5 AND "FALLING HEADLONG HE BURST OPEN"
=============================================================
 
This question of the manner in which Judas died is one with which we are
constantly confronted in our travels. Many people point to the apparent
discrepancy in the two accounts as an obvious, irreconcilable error.
Some have gone so far as to say that the idea of an inerrant Bible is
destroyed by these contradictory accounts. However, this is not the case at
all.
Matthew relates that Judas hanged himself, while Peter tells us he fell and
was crushed by the impact. The two statements are indeed different, but do
they necessarily contradict each other?
Matthew does not say that Judas did not fall; neither does Peter say that
Judas did not hang himself. This is not a matter of one person calling
something black and the other person calling it white. Both accounts can be
true and supplementary.
A possible reconstruction would be this: Judas hanged himself on a tree on the
edge of a precipice that overlooked the valley of Hinnom. After he hung there
for some time, the limb of the tree snapped or the rope gave way and Judas
fell down the ledge, mangling his body in the process.
The fall could have been before *or* after death as either would fit this
explanation. This possibility is entirely natural when the terrain of the
valley of Hinnom is examined.  From the bottom of the valley, you can see
rocky terraces 25 to 40 feet in height and almost perpendicular.
There are still trees around the ledges and a rocky pavement at the bottom.
Therefore, it is easy to conclude that Judas struck one of the jagged rocks on
this way down, tearing his body open. It is important to remember that we are
not told how long Judas remained hanging from the tree or how advanced
was the decomposition of his body before his fall.
Louis Gaussen relates a story of a man who was determined to kill himself.
This individual placed himself on the sill of a high window and pointed a
pistol at his head. He then pulled the trigger and leaped from the window at
the same time.
On the other hand, a person could say that this man took his life by shooting
himself, while another could rightly contend he committed suicide by jumping
form the tall building. In this case, both are true, as both are true in the
case of Matthew's and Peter's accounts of the death of Judas. It is merely a
situation of different perspectives of the same event.
 
Your only reason for rejecting this is, I believe, your attempt to discredit
inerrancy.  You haven't related how this is IMPOSSIBLE or highly unlikely.
Here's what you said in an earlier post...
 
DB [quoting Tony Rose]...
 
"The added text in this version is so heavy that, assuming you are truly so
opposed to such tactics, you should find it not credible.  But you seem to
find Tony Rose's eisegesis satisfactory, while clearly rejecting David
Joslin's."
 
Here, you discredit Tony's explanation based on what you deem too "heavy" for
the passages.  But you haven't addressed why you feel that way.  You can say
it's a vain attempt to reconcile the contradiction, but that doesn't tell me it
didn't happen, nor have you shown why you reject that possibility.
 
Questions:  Is Matthew lying or is Luke lying?  Or are they both lying?  Or
are either or both of them misinformed?  Why do you think there is such an
alleged contradiction?  I do not think you have ever told us what you believe
in this respect.
 
DB...
"At present though, Mr DeCenso only asks two questions of me:
 
Actually I find question (1) to be a rather stupid request, but I will answer
it because he now restricts himself to two points.  First I would point out
that hanging is a very efficient manner for ending a life.  In fact it is a
bit of a fluke when someone survives hanging (except in fantasy cowboy
movies), and even then it usually referred to as an attempted hanging."
 
I work at an agency that investigates child abuse and neglect.  Today, I got a
call re: a child that attempted suicide by hanging himself because his mother
is on crack.  He failed in his attempt and is in a child's psych ward at a
local hospital.  Hanging attempts are not always successful.
 
To assume that because most hangings are successful, this one was also is
"begging the question", if I may quote you.
 
[Last night, listening to _The Bible Answer Man_ broadcast, The Christian
Research Institute's show, one of the scholars on there used several of these
terms that you use.  I am not all that familiar with them.  The man on the BAM
show teaches Comparative Religion and Logic.  It was interesting]
 
DB...
"This is so prevalent that, so that to say a man hung himself with no other
qualifiers is synonymous with stating that he killed himself."
 
Qualifiers are important at times, as we'll see in an OT passage I'll mention
below.
Does hanging ALWAYS have this outcome?  Did Matthew, who is the only source we
have re: Judas hanging himself, state that Judas died as a result?  To say it's
synonymous means it has the same meaning as.  A boy (age 14) hung himself.  But
he lived.  This is only one of probably thousands of documented cases we can
discover.
 
DB...
"Now I am not alone in this thought; in fact, since Mr DeCenso so respects
Christian scholarly (including Greek scholars) opinion, I did some research."
 
Thank you, Dave.
 
DB...
"Interestingly, not one of the Christian references I read, interpreted the
hanging as being anything but a fatal suicide.              ^^^^^^^^^^^
 
[^^^ above, mine]
So it's OK to use Christian sources to back your points?  What about Tony's
position.  Do you value it or even consider it as a valid possibility?
 
Also, is it possible that the sources you read may be wrong, or lying, or
deceived in other parts of their books?  If so, should we do, as we have done
with Archer, toss them to the side and not value anything they say, including
their "interpretation" of the hanging of Judas?  I am sure _you_ would find
some errors and maybe even some deception in those sources.
 
You also noted they "interpreted" the hanging as meaning he died.  Although
that is very possibly true, do you find that in the text itself?  Remember,
that's the first criteria we must examine.
 
DB...
"This included:
 
    "The Biblical Knowledge Commentary" by Woodward and Zuck"
 
Which I own.  It's a good source of commentary info.  But not inerrant.
 
DB...
    "The Interpreters on Volume Commentary on the Bible" by Laydon
    "The one volume Bible Commentary" by J R Dunelow
    "Word meanings of the Testament" Ralph Earl
    "The Abingdon Bible Commentary" published by Abingdon
    "Harpers Bible Commentary" by William Neal
     (Actually I could have presented many more as well)
 
I appreciate your doing this research, Dave.  Maybe we are getting somewhere
in how we both should approach these alleged contradictions - more in depth
study.
 
DB...
"In each case, these references specifically describe that the interpretation
of Matt 27:5 as successful, suicide and thus I can only conclude that the
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Greek word "apagchw"(ie: hang oneself) is translated as a successful hanging."
 
No you can't only conclude this, although, as Tony says, this was a highly
probable outcome.  But Matthew does not state death as being a result.
 
The Greek word is APAGCHO.  Matthew 27:5 is it's only occurrence in the New
Testament.
 
In the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT used at the time of Jesus),
it's only used in 2 Samuel 17:23 : "Now when Ahithophel saw that his advice was
not followed, he saddled a donkey, and arose and went home to his house, to his
city. Then he put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died; and he
was buried in his father's tomb."             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
Notice that not only is it stated that Ahithophel "hanged himself" [Gr. Sept.,
APAGCHO], but it explicitly adds, "and died".  Here we have no doubt of the
result.
In Matthew, we are not explicitly told Judas died.
 
Also, there is nothing in the Greek to suggest success or failure.  It simply
means "hang oneself".
 
DB...
"But Mr DeCenso, you are more than welcome to disagree and show more reputable
                                                                     ^^^^^^^^^
Christian scholars that insist that the hanging was not successful."
 
[^^^above, mine]
"Reputable"?  You mean ones that have never erred?
As far as   insisting that the hanging was unsuccessful, that can't be done,
even by me. ^^^^^^^^^
 
As I said in an earlier post...
 
Although I still agree with Tony's exegesis as being the most probable
explanation regarding Judas' death (taking into account several criteria),
I've recently noticed some new things in Matthew.
 
MAT 27:5-8 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed,
and went and hanged himself. But the chief priests took the silver pieces and
said, "It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, because they are the
price of blood." And they consulted together and bought with them the potter's
field, to bury strangers in. Therefore that field has been called the Field of
Blood to this day.
 
First of all, notice that the text does not say that Judas died as a result of
hanging. All it says is that he "went and hanged himself." Luke however, in
Acts, tells us that "and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all
his entrails gushed out." This is a pretty clear indication (along with the
other details given in Acts - Peter's speech, the need to pick a new apostle,
etc.) that at least after Judas' fall, he was dead. So the whole concept that
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Matthew and Luke both recount Judas' death is highly probable, but not clear
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
cut.
^^^
 
I also wrote...
 
Here we have a stickler, Dave, that I have to say I just recently noticed.
Let's look at the passage in Matthew:
 
MAT 27:4 saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." And they said,
"What is that to us? You see to it!"
 
MAT 27:5 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed,
and went and hanged himself.
 
MAT 27:6 But the chief priests took the silver pieces and said, "It is not
lawful to put them into the treasury, because they are the price of blood."
 
MAT 27:7 And they consulted together and bought with them the potter's field,
to bury strangers in.
 
MAT 27:8 Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.
 
Notice verse 5..."Then he...went and hanged himself."
Matthew does not say Judas died, does it?  Should we assume he died as a
result of the hanging?                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What does Acts say?
ACT 1:18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and
falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.
 
ACT 1:20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms: 'Let his dwelling place be
desolate, And let no one live in it'; and, 'Let another take his office.'
 
Here we may have a graphic explanation of Judas' death....So, my line of
reasoning to dispel your contradiction myth re:the "two" accounts of Judas'
death is this...Matthew doesn't necessarily explain how Judas died; he does
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
say Judas "hanged himself", but he didn't specifically say Judas died in the
hanging incident.               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
However, Acts seems to show us his graphic demise.  Therefore, there is no
contradiction between Matthew and Acts re: Judas' `death'.
 
.......
 
...we do know from Matthew that he did hang himself and Acts probably records
his death.  Although it's possible and plausible that he fell from the hanging
and hit some rocks, thereby bursting open, I can no longer assume that to be
the case.  Therefore, no contradiction.  Matthew did not say Judas died as a
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
result of the hanging, did he?  Most scholars believe he probably did, but...?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
______________________________________________________________________
 
I quoted all that to show that I highly regard the scholars' explanations, but
in looking at the texts initially, we can't assume Judas died.  It is, however,
highly probable.                            ^^^^^^
 
DB...
"By the way, while all agree that Judas died from the hanging, the books had
different ways of dealing with the contradiction we are discussing.  One
simply ignored it entirely and simply referred back to Matthew's version as
the correct version in both Matt and Acts.  "The Biblical Knowledge Commentary"
suggested the hypotheses that Judas hung and then when he rotted, his belly
exploded (which doesn't explain his headlong fall), or that his branch or rope
broke, and he fell to his death and his gut gushed out (which doesn't explain
how a hanging man, would fall headlong rather than feet first)."
 
The outcome of any fall is dependent upon many factors...how high the person
was suspended before the fall, any obstructions such as tree branches that may
have deviated the fall, how steep an incline of rocky surfaces the victim fell
upon, thus possibly rolling or bouncing of several rocks, etc.  In a
superficial examination of the Acts passage and the Matthew passage, we are not
given a lot of info on the geographical specifics, but Tony in the above quoted
post gave us some...
 
this way down, tearing his body open.
 
DB...
Now truthfully, I do not see what is comforting about Matthew confusing the
source of the Potter's field prophesy, but on the other hand the author is
correct: Matthew does make that confusion.  Of course a Biblical inerrantist
who claim that every word of the Bible is guaranteed true by God, will have to
thereby add one more contradiction to the death of Judas (ie: where the
prophesy of the Potter's field came from)."
 
Please, when we are done with this study on his death, remind me to discuss
this with you.
 
DB...
As to your second question Mr DeCenso, you ask how we could be sure that the
money with which Judas purchased the land, was indeed for the betrayal, rather
than some other source.  I would point out that in Acts, where it specifically
mention "the reward of iniquity" [Acts 1:18], it also specifically mentions
what act of iniquity they were talking about (ie: Acts 1:16 "...concerning
Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus.").  Now I would point out
that when the Bible describes an act of "iniquity," and then immediately
discusses "*the* reward of iniquity," it would be rather inane to suggest that
it was an action of iniquity other than the one discussed."
 
Dave, we are getting somewhere, aren't we!
 
ACT 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples
(altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,
ACT 1:16 "Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy
Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide
to those who arrested Jesus;
ACT 1:17 "for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry."
ACT 1:19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field
is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
 
Notice that in verse 16, the word "iniquity" is not used.  Rather, it states
that Judas "became a guide to those who arrested Jesus".
But the writer DID NOT stop there...vs. 17, "for he was numbered with us and
obtained a part in this ministry."  What part did Judas play in their ministry?
         ^^^^^^
JOH 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a
thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.
JOH 13:29 For some thought, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus had
said to him, "Buy those things we need for the feast," or that he should give
something to the poor.
 
So, now we know what part Judas played - he was a treasurer, per se.
Right after Peter stated that Judas played a part in this ministry (treasurer,
according to John), THEN Luke adds the parenthetical explanation of "wages of
iniquity" - money that should have been put into the ministry, but was stolen
by Judas to purchase a field.  I believe this is a better exegetical
explanation of what the "wages of iniquity" are.  What do you think, Dave?
 
DB...
"Now since I have given you clear answers (and even references), perhaps you
could unequivocally state what type of inerrantist you are (instead of asking
me what type I think you are, as you did to Mr Joslin)."
 
I will gladly admit that I am a Complete Inerrantist, although I do not have
that big a problem with the Limited Inerrancy view.

Frank

The Apollo astronauts also trained at (in) Meteor Crater in the Flagstaff
area (Arizona).  There is now a museum with a space shop.
Caution: they ease you by 6$. Compared to a KSC visit it's not worth.

Nothing is perfect. Nothing is perpetual. i.e. even if it is perfect,
it isn't going to stay that way forever. 

Perpetual machines cannot exist. I thought that there
were some laws in mechanics or thermodynamics stating that.

Not an atheist
BN
--

I've got an old demo disk that I need to view. It was made using RIX Softworks.  
The files on the two diskette set end with: .scf

The demo was VGA resolution (256 colors), but I don't know the spatial  
resolution.

First problem: When I try to run the demo, the screen has two black bars that  
cut across (horizontally) the screen, in the top third and bottom third of the  
screen. The bars are about 1-inch wide. Other than this, the demo (the  
animation part) seems to be running fine.

Second problem: I can't find any graphics program that will open and display  
these files. I have a couple of image conversion programs, none mention .scf  
files.

The system I am using: 486clone, Diamond Speedstar 24, Sony monitor.

	[...deleted...]

Unfortunately, I think you've got it figured pretty well.  I also ask
myself the question "Why did they plan for so many months.  Why was
this so important to them?  What was the government really up to?
Why did they seal the warrant?  Were they after Koresh or were they after      
the first and second amendments, among others?

930420

Order of the Rose Cross. 

Response:

Yes, very true.  The entire title is 'The Ancient and Mystical Order
 Rosae Crucis'.  They are located at 1342 Naglee Avenue, San Jose,
California, 95191-0001, USA.

They are considered different and largely unrelated by a number of
sources.  I've seen documentation which links them through the figure
of H. Spencer Lewis.  Lewis was apparently involved with Reuss, who
was the O.H.O. of Ordo Templi Orientis for many years.  Apparently it
is also true that Lewis had a charter to form an O.T.O. body and then
created A.M.O.R.C. (as a subsidiary?  an interesting question).

Kent:

Response:

Indeed, and diagonally across the street is another metaphysical
book store called 'Ram Metaphysical', wherein I've purchased some
wonderful works by Crowley and others.  Ram Metaphysical Books,
1749 Park Ave., San Jose, CA.  (408) 294-2651.

I am I!

That is because two creation stories is one of the worst examples of 
a difficulty with the Bible.  "were formed" can also be translated "had been
formed" in chapter two without any problems.  So the text does not demand
that there are two creation stories.  

<Moral Driver distinctions deleted>

Compare the Driver to an urge such as Jealousy, where there is an urge
and an "object". The jealousy does not technically exist until the object
is apparent. However, the capacity to be jealous is presumably still there
even though it is not detectable.

Your description of the Unbilical took me three passes to understand (!) but
I get the gist and I have to tentatively agree. I think our two definitions
can sit side by side without too much trouble, though. I haven't attempted to
define the reason behind the Moral Driver (only hinted through the essence of
each Moral). Your definition hints that animals are also capable of a
similar morality - Simians have a similar Social Order to ourselves and it is
easy to anthropomorphize with these animals. Is this possible or have I
misunderstood?

My p.s. thoughts falls roughly in line with John Stuart Mill and
his writings on Utilitarianism. I have no particular plan (except to do
my bit - personal ethics AND social work). My opinion (for what it is worth)
is that the Authority for each Moral must be increased somehow, and that this
will probably take several generations to be effective. I don't think that the
list of Morals has changed for Society significantly, though . The Authority element
may come from our authority figures and roles models (see Eric Berne and his
transactional analysis work [+ Mavis Klein] for references) and this is what
gives rise to a deterioration of moral standards in the long term.

I've had some more thoughts on my definitions:

I've was thinking that I should add Moral Character to the list of definitions
in order to get a dynamic version of the Moral Nature (ie. the interplay of
the Moral Code and associated Authorities). A suitable analogy might be a
graphic equaliser on a HiFi system - the Moral Nature being the set of
frequencies and the chosen 'amplitudes', and the Moral Character being the
spectrum over time.

Conscience is a little more difficult because I can't define it as the
reasoning of a person between actions in the context of his Moral Nature
because Conscience seems to cut in most of the time unbidden and often
unwanted. I think Conscience is manifest when a decision is made at a given
time which compromises one's Moral Nature. My Conscience fits in more with
Freud's SuperEgo (plus the Moral Driver) with the stimulous being the
urges or Freud's Id. The reasoning that I mentioned before is Freud's Ego,
I suppose. If the Moral Driver is part of the Id then the reason why
Conscience cuts in unbidden is partially explained. The question is "what
provides the stimulous to activate the Moral driver?". I think I need some
more time with this one.

That's about it for now!

David.

---

Actually, there are people who will tell you that it *would* be enough
to do SSTO development, if done privately as a cut-rate operation.  Of
course, they may be over-optimistic.

You can also assume that a working SSTO would have other applications
that would help pay for its development costs.

I'd be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger, but $1G might be enough.

  Yes, I do.  

  My argument is that the sole purpose of the death penalty is to
  kill people.  That is it's primary (and I would argue only)
  purpose.  To continue to kill people by a practice that has
  almost no utility, especially when you know you will be killing
  innocents, is unconscionable.

  At the very least, the existence of the prison system and our
  transportation system are based on their merits to society, not
  their detriments.  We are willing to accept a few lost innocent
  lives because there is an overwhelming benefit to the continued
  existence of these systems.  One has to stretch the evidence and
  the arguments to make the same claim for capital punishment.

  Just in case I wasn't clear again:  We maintain a capital
  punsihment system that kills innocent people and provides us with
  no net positive gain.  Why?

  Were you to pin me in a corner and ask, I would have to respond
  that I don't belief the state should have the right to take life
  at all.  But I won't open that debate, as it seems others are
  tiring of this thread on a.a anyway.

Yes, this is also my understanding of the majority of Islamic laws.
However, I believe there are also certain legal rulings which, in all
five schools of law (4 sunni and 1 jaffari), can be levelled against
muslim or non-muslims, both within and outside dar-al-islam. I do
not know if apostasy (when accompanied by active, persistent, and
open hostility to Islam) falls into this category of the law. I do know
that
historically, apostasy has very rarely been punished at all, let alone
by the death penalty.

My understanding is that Khomeini's ruling was not based on the
law of apostasy (alone). It was well known that Rushdie was an apostate
long before he wrote the offending novel and certainly there is no
precedent in the Qur'an, hadith, or in Islamic history for indiscriminantly
levelling death penalties for apostasy.

I believe the charge levelled against Rushdie was that of "fasad". This
ruling applies both within and outside the domain of an
Islamic state and it can be carried out by individuals. The reward was
not offered by Khomeini but by individuals within Iran.

I would concur that the thrust of the fatwa (from what I remember) was
levelled at the author and all those who assisted in the publication
of the book. However, the charge of "fasad" can encompass a
number of lesser charges. I remember that when diplomatic relations
broke off between Britain and Iran over the fatwa - Iran stressed that
the condemnation of the author, and the removal of the book from
circulation were two preliminary conditions for resolving the
"crisis". But you are correct to point out that banning the book was not
the main thrust behind the fatwa. Islamic charges such as fasad are
levelled at people, not books.

The Rushdie situation was followed in Iran for several months before the
issuance of the fatwa. Rushdie went on a media blitz,
presenting himself as a lone knight guarding the sacred values of
secular democracy and mocking the foolish concerns of people
crazy enough to actually hold their religious beliefs as sacred. 
Fanning the flames and milking the controversy to boost
his image and push the book, he was everywhere in the media. Then
Muslim demonstrators in several countries were killed while
protesting against the book. Rushdie appeared momentarily
concerned, then climbed back on his media horse to once again
attack the Muslims and defend his sacred rights. It was at this
point that the fatwa on "fasad" was issued.

The fatwa was levelled at the person of Rushdie - any actions of
Rushdie that feed the situation contribute to the legitimization of
the ruling. The book remains in circulation not by some independant
will of its own but by the will of the author and the publishers. The fatwa
against the person of Rushdie encompasses his actions as well. The
crime was certainly a crime in progress (at many levels) and was being
played out (and played up) in the the full view of the media.

===
I aint talking the large or even the "mining companies" I am talking the small
miners, the people who have themselves and a few employees (if at all).The
people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box, and such and do
mining the semi-old fashion way.. (okay they use modern methods toa point).

I am talking the guy who coem to Nome evry year, sets up his tent on the beach
(the beach was washed away last year) and sets up his/her sluice box and goes
at it "mining".
I know the large corps, such as Alaska Gold Company, might complain to..

My opinions are what I learn at the local BS table..

My original thing/idea was that the way to get space mining was to allow the
eco-freaks thier way.. As they have done with other mineral development.
You can't in many places can't go to the bathroom in the woods without some
form of regulation covering it.. 

Well, there already is a sulfate process for TiO2 purification.  The
chlorine process is cleaner, however, and for that reason is achieving
dominance in the marketplace.

Most Ti is used in pigment, btw (as the oxide), where it replaced
white lead pigment some decades ago.  Very little is reduced to the
metal.

Which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are
there at all (and, why their children would want to stay.)

Please bear with me as i am new at this game, i apologize unreservedly if i hav
e posted another message earlier by mistake. but i digress, could anyone out th
ere please explain exactly what DMORF does (dtax.exe). Does it simply fade one
bitmap into another or does it reshape one bitmap into another. Excuse my ignor
ance.....

[Please, note the Newsgroups.]

Recent discussion about XV's problems were held in some newsgroup.
Here is some text users of XV might find interesting.
I have added more to text to this collection article, so read on, even
you so my articles a while ago.

I hope author of XV corrects those problems as best he can, so fine
program XV is that it is worth of improving.
(I have also minor ideas for 24bit XV, e-mail me for them.)

Any misundertanding of mine is understandable.

Juhana Kouhia

==clip==

[ ..deleted..]

Note that 'xv' saves only 8bit/rasterized images; that means that
the saved jpegs are just like jpeg-to-gif-to-jpeg quality.
Also, there's three kind of 8bit quantizers; your final image quality
depends on them too.
 
This were the situation when I read jpeg FAQ a while ago.
 
IMHO, it is design error of 'xv'; there should not be such confusing
errors in programs.
There's two errors:
  -xv allows the saving of 8bit/rasterized image as jpeg even the
   original is 24bit -- saving 8bit/rasterized image instead of
   original 24bit should be a special case
  -xv allows saving the 8bit/rasterized image made with any quantizer
   -- the main case should be that 'xv' quantizes the image with the
   best quantizer available before saving the image to a file; lousier
   quantizers should be just for viewing purposes (and a special cases
   in saving the image, if at all)
 
==clip==

==clip==

It is limit of *XV*, but not limit of design.
It is error in design.
It is error that 8bit/quantized/rasterized images are stored as jpegs;
jpeg is not designed to that.

As matter of fact, I'm sure when XV were designed 24bit displays were
known. It is not bad error to program a program for 8bit images only
at that time, but when 24bit image formats are included to program the
whole design should be changed to support 24bit images.
That were not done and now we have
 -the program violate jpeg design (and any 24bit image format)
 -the program has human interface errors.

Otherway is to drop saving images as jpegs or any 24bit format without
clearly saying that it is special case and not expected in normal use.

[ ..deleted.. ]

==clip==

Some new items follows.

==clip==

I have seen that XV quantizes the image sometimes poorly with -best24
option than with default option we have.
The reason surely is the quantizer used as -best24; it is (surprise)
the same than used in ppmquant.

If you remember, I have tested some quantizers. In that test I found
that rlequant (with default) is best, then comes djpeg, fbmquant, xv
(our default) in that order. In my test ppmquant suggeeded very poorly
-- it actually gave image with bad artifacts.

I don't know is ppmquant improved any, but I expect no.
So, use of XV's -best24 option is not very good idea.

I suggest that author of XV changes the quantizer to the one used in
rlequant -- I'm sure rle-people gives permission.
(Another could be one used in ImageMagick; I have not tested it, so I
can say nothing about it.)

==clip==

==clip==

Some minor bugs in human interface are:

Key pressings and cursor clicks goes to a buffer; Often it happens
that I make click errors or press keyboard when cursor is in the wrong
place. It is very annoying when you have waited image to come about
five minutes and then it is gone away immediately.
The buffer should be cleaned when the image is complete.

Also, good idea is to wait few seconds before activating keyboard
and mouse for XV after the image is completed.
Often it happens that image pops to the screen quickly, just when
I'm writing something with editor or such. Those key pressings
then go to XV and image has gone or something weird.

In the color editor, when I turn a color meter and release it, XV
updates the images. It is impossible to change all RGB values first
and then get the updated image. It is annoying wait image to be
updated when the setting are not ready yet.
I suggest of adding an 'apply' button to update the exchanges done.

Really>`?

No, gravity is an inherent system.  You don't need any excess information
other than observations to determine anything.  It is possible to objectively
determine someone's guilt or innocence within an non-inherent system.
I agree that morality is not necessarily inherent (unless you state that
everything we do has an evolutionary basis), but this does not mean that
it cannot be objective in theory.

Perhaps it can be objective, but not inherent.  Anyway, as I noted before,
the practices related to mating rituals, etc. among the animals are likely
the only ones to be considered "immoral" under the previous "definitions"
of the natural law.  Therefore, some revisions are in order, since the
class of activities surrounding mating seem to pose some general problems.

It seens that you are objecting to the notion of an objective system
because perhaps you think that it would imply inherence, which would
necessitate some sort of grand design?

I think I have.  It is a code of ethics which basically defines undesired
behaviors, etc.  An immoral behavior could be unwanted, unproductive,
or destructive, etc., depending on the goal of the system (that is,
immoral to what end?).

Is there an ftp site for maps of the US.  Preferably aerial
photographs?

A very kind soul has mailed me this reply for the bugs in CView.
Since he isn't in the position to post this himself, he asked me to post
it for him, but to leave his name out. So here it comes:

CView has quite a number of bugs.  The one you mention is perhaps the most
annoying, but not the most dangerous.  As far as I can determine, it has to
do with the temp files that CView creates.  CView gives the user no control
over where it places its temp files: it just places them in its
"current directory".  The problem you mention occurs (as far as I can tell)
when it runs out of disk space for its temp files. It seems as if CView
doesn't check properly for this situation.  As Cview decodes a jpeg, it seems 
to write out a temp file with all the pixel data with 24 bit colour
information. Then, for 8 bit displays, it does the "dithering", again writing
another file with the 8 bit colour information.  While it is writing this
second file, it also writes the data to your colour card. Then when it does
the last chunk of 8 bit data, it recopies all the data from the 8 bit file to
your screen again.  (It does this last "recopy" operation for its
"fit to screen" feature, even when this feature is not enabled.)

 The result of this process is the following:
  
     1) If it runs out of disk space when writing the first 24 bit file, all
        you ever see is as much data as it has room for, and the last bit of
        data is simply repeated over and over again because CView never
        realizes the disk has filled up and disk writes/reads aren't performed.

     2) If it has enough room for the 24 bit data, but runs out of room for
        the 8 bit data, you see almost all of the picture as it does the
        dithering and writes to the screen card.
        However, then when it finishes the dithering and recopies the data
        from the 8 bit file to screen (for whatever reason it does this)
        one again just gets a repetition of the last chunk of data for which
        there was room on the disk.

This is just a guess, but probably fairly accurate.  At least the general
idea is on track I think, although I have probably made errors in details
about file I/O etc.  The way around this is  of course to clear up sufficient
disk space.  The temp files for large JPEG's (1200x900 and bigger) can be
very large (3 Meg + 1 Meg ).  On some of the largest I have needed in excess
of 6 Meg free disk space.

CView has a much more serious bug: if you are trying to display a file from
a floppy, and you change floppies while CView has some temp file open on the
floppy, then CView in certain circumstances will write the directory (and FAT
table? I can't remember) for the removed floppy onto the newly inserted
floppy, thus corruptimg the new floppy in a very serious, possibly
unrevcoverable way.  SO BE CAREFUL!  It is incredibly poor programming for a
program to do this.  On the other hand, when choosing files in the Open Files
menu, CView insists on doing a few disk reads every time one moves the
hi-lighter square.  Incredibly annoying when it could do them all at once
when it gets the directory info.  And really, how much effort does it take to
sort a directory listing?

If one does not follow the teachings of Christ, he is NOT Christian.  
Too easy?  

Would you say all Muslims are like Saddam Hussein?  I wouldn't make
such a blanket judgement, why do you?

I can tell you that when AMSAT launched some birds along a Spot satellite
(French), that during installation of some instruments on Spot 2, there
heavily armed legionaires who had a `take no prisoners' look on there faces.
Spot satellites are completely capable of doing some very good on orbit
surveillance.

BMc
--

Thanks Ron and Peter for some very nice maps.

I have an advice though.  You wrote that the maps were reduced to 256
colors.  As far ad I understand JPEG pictures gets much better (and
the compressed files smaller) if you use the original 3 color 24 bit
data when converting to JPEG.

Thanks again,

Yes.

I don't know where Douglas Adams took it from, but I'm pretty sure he's
the one who launched it (in the Guide). Since then it's been showing up 
all over the place.

We have a minivas-2 and we want to record to an Abekas A66.
We have most of the functions working but when we go to
set up a record the minivas hangs. We are sending the
abekas SMPTE time code. Does anyone have code we can
compare to what we have done and is there and ftp site
for minivas and abekas code.

Gordon Phillips
glp@cray.com

The problem with Commercial Titan is that MM has made little or no attempt
to market it.  They're basically happy with their government business and
don't want to have to learn how to sell commercially.

A secondary problem is that it is a bit big.  They'd need to go after
multi-satellite launches, a la Ariane, and that complicates the marketing
task quite significantly.

They also had some problems with launch facilities at just the wrong time
to get them started properly.  If memory serves, the pad used for the Mars
Observer launch had just come out of heavy refurbishment work that had
prevented launches from it for a year or so.

There have been a few CT launches.  Mars Observer was one of them.  So
was that stranded Intelsat, and at least one of its brothers that reached
orbit properly.

Greetings all.
	According to a FAQ I read, on 30 July 1992, Joshua C. Jensen posted an 
article on bitmap manipulation (specifically, scaling and perspective) to the 
newsgroup rec.games.programmer. (article 7716)
	The article included source code in Turbo Pascal with inline assembly 
language.

	I have been unable to find an archive for this newsgroup, or a current 
email address for Joshua C. Jensen.
	If anyone has the above details, or a copy of the code, could they 
please let me know.	Many thanks.
					Yours gratefully, etc.  Myles.

Confident, or merely crazed?  That desert sun :-)

Gee, I thought the X-15 was Cable controlled.  Didn't one of them have a
total electrical failure in flight?  Was there machanical backup systems?

What do you mean?  Overstress the wings,  and they fail at teh joints?

You'll have to enlighten us in the hinterlands.

Hi guys,
	I've been hearing lots of talk on the net about DC-X and DC-Y,
but none of the many posts actually explain what they are !!! Sorry if
this is a FAQ, but would somebody please explain to me what they are.
Reply by Email please . . . thanks.

	Andy

ajjb@adam4.bnsc.rl.ac.uk
-- 

    The gl2p1.lzh stuff under gfx/show on the Aminet sites includes a
    utility called pic2hl, that is a filter for HamLab that can handle
    the most commonly used kinds of .PIC and .CLP files.

    The biggest problem is that the .CLP files don't usually contain a
    palette, so you need to convert a .PIC with the right palette
    first (which creates a "ram:picpal" file), and then convert the
    .CLP files.

Howdy all,

Where could I find a screen-grabber program for MS-Windows?  I'm 
writing up some documentation and it would be VERY helpful to include
sample screens into the document.

Please e-mail as I don't usualy follow this group.

Thanks a lot,

Grant

From the article "What's New" Apr-16-93 in sci.physics.research:

........
WHAT'S NEW (in my opinion), Friday, 16 April 1993  Washington, DC

1. SPACE BILLBOARDS! IS THIS ONE THE "SPINOFFS" WE WERE PROMISED?
In 1950, science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published "The
Man Who Sold the Moon," which involved a dispute over the sale of
rights to the Moon for use as billboard. NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
 hideous vision of the future.  Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with "SCHWARZENEGGER" painted in huge block letters on the
side of the booster rockets.  Space Marketing Inc. had arranged
for the ad to promote Arnold's latest movie. Now, Space Marketing
is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth
orbit.  NASA would provide contractual launch services. However,
since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
(WN 26 Mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense. This
may look like environmental vandalism, but Mike Lawson, CEO of
Space Marketing, told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
project is to help the environment! The platform will carry ozone
monitors he explained--advertising is just to help defray costs.
..........

What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky? It is not even April 1 anymore.
What about light pollution in observations? (I read somewhere else that
it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night).
Is NASA really supporting this junk?
Are protesting groups being organized in the States?
Really, really depressed.

             Enzo

Does anyone have a radon transform in C that they could 
send me?

				Any help accepted,

Wouldn't this require a hyper-sphere.  In 3-space, 4 points over specifies
a sphere as far as I can see.  Unless that is you can prove that a point
exists in 3-space that is equi-distant from the 4 points, and this may not
necessarily happen.

Correct me if I'm wrong (which I quite possibly am!)

steve
---

Can anyone tell me where I might find stereo images of planetary and
planetary satellite surfaces?  GIFs preferred, but any will do.  I'm
especially interested in stereos of the surfaces of Phobos, Deimos, Mars
and the Moon (in that order).
  Thanks. 

Could anyone direct me to the FTP site where I can find the DOS-based
morphing package called DMORF12.ZIP?  I had downloaded this file last week,
but the new DOS 6 crashed my hard drive and I lost it. Now I can't find the
site where I got it from.......

Also, are there any other morphing packages out for DOS (freeware or shareware)

Barry

/---------------------------------------------------------------------------\
\___________________________________________________________________________/
-- 

I attended a colloquium at Goddard last fall where the head of the 
operations section of NASA was talking about what future missions
were going to be funded.  I don't remember his name or title off hand
and I have discarded the colloquia announcement. In any case, he was 
asked about that very matter: "Why can't we spend a few million more
to keep instruments that we already have in place going?"

His responce was that there are only so many $ available to him and
the lead time on an instrument like a COBE, Magellan, Hubble, etc
is 5-10 years minumum.  If he spent all that could be spent on using
current instruments in the current budget enviroment he would have
very little to nothing for future projects.  If he did that, sure
in the short run the science would be wonderful and he would be popular,
however starting a few years after he had retired he would become
one of the greatest villans ever seen in the space community for not
funding the early stages of the next generation of instruments.  Just
as he had benefited from his predicessor's funding choices, he owed it
to whoever his sucessor would eventually be to keep developing new
missions, even at the expense of cutting off some instruments before
the last drop of possible science has been wrung out of them.

                               OZONE GIF IMAGES
                                April 15, 1993
                         ==========================

     Two GIF images of the ozone maps over the northern and southern
hemispheres are now available at the JPL Info public access site.  These maps
were produced by the Microwave Limb Sounder aboard the Upper Atmosphere
Research Satellite (UARS), and are courtesy of the Public Information Office
at JPL.  Note that the images are in GIF89a format, so make sure your display
software supports this format (as opposed to the older GIF87a format).  The
caption files accompanying the images are appended at the end of this message,
as well as being embedded in the images.  The images are available by dialup
modem at +1 (818) 354-1333, up to 9600 bps, parameters N-8-1, or by using
anonymous ftp to:

        ftp:      pubinfo.jpl.nasa.gov (128.149.6.2)
        user:     anonymous
        cd:       news (will be moved to the images directory in 30 days)
        files:    ozone93a.gif - Northern hemisphere
                  ozone93b.gif - Southern hemisphere

     Also, photographic prints of these images can be ordered from Newell Color
Lab listed below.  Refer to the P number associated with the images when
ordering.

     Newell Color Lab
     221 N. Westmoreland Avenue
     Los Angeles CA 90064
     Telephone: (213) 380-2980
     FAX: (213) 739-6984

ozone93a.gif

PASADENA, CALIF. 91109.  TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011

PHOTO                                                     P-42210
                                                   April 14, 1993

This graphic depicts chlorine monoxide and ozone over Earth's
northern hemisphere in February 1992 and 1993.  These maps were
produced by the Microwave Limb Sounder aboard the Upper
Atmosphere Research Satellite.  The chlorine monoxide (ClO) maps
(left) are for a layer about 20 kilometers (66,000 feet) above
the Earth's surface on February 17, 1992 (above) and 1993
(below).  The ozone maps show the total amount above an altitude
of about 12 kilometers (41,000 feet) averaged over the period
from February 15 to March 6 for the two years.  The Microwave
Limb Sounder, developed and operated by a team at NASA's Jet
Propulsion Laboratory, is one of several instruments on the
Goddard Space Flight Center's Upper Atmosphere Research
Satellite, launched in September 1991.

ozone93b.gif

PHOTO CAPTION                                             P-42211

I'm not sure what you mean by 'saving face' unless you are confusing
the FBI with the BATF who are the ones who were in charge of the
original search warrant.
 
Independant Negotiators? What was there to negotiate? Any sort of plea
bargin has to be brought to the court, the negotiators can't negotiate
charges or sentences. FBI negotitators did make a deal for the
Dividians to come out. Koresh showed he was not negotiating in good
faith and there is no reason to believe independent negotiators
would have done any better.

That would not explain why widely separated detectors, such as on Ulysses
and PVO and Ginga et al., would see a burst at the same time(*).  In fact, be-
fore BATSE, having this widely separated "Interplanetary Network" was the
only sure way to locate a random burst.  With only one detector, one cannot
locate a burst (except to say "It's somewhere in the field of view.").  With
two detectors, one can use the time that the burst is seen in each detector
to narrow the location to a thin annulus on the sky.  With three detectors,
one gets intersecting annuli, giving two possible locations.  If one of these
locations is impossible (because, say, the Earth blocked that part of the 
sky), voila, you have an error box.

BATSE, by having 8 detectors of its own, can do its own location determination,
but only to within about 3 degrees (would someone at GSFC, like David, like
to comment on the current state of location determination?).  Having inde-
pendent sightings by other detectors helps drive down the uncertainty.

You did touch on something that you didn't mean to, though.  Some believe
(in a reference that I have somewhere) that absorption-like features seen
in a fraction of GRBs can actually be caused by the detector.  It would be
a mean, nasty God, though, that would have a NaI crystal act like a 10^12 Gauss
neutron star...but this is getting too far afield.

An universe it has created. By the way, can you tell me why it is less
tyrannic to let one of one's own creatures do what it likes to others?
By your definitions, your god has created Satan with full knowledge what
would happen - including every choice of Satan.
 
Can you explain us what Free Will is, and how it goes along with omniscience?
Didn't your god know everything that would happen even before it created the
world? Why is it concerned about being a tyrant when noone would care if
everything was fine for them? That the whole idea comes from the possibility
to abuse power, something your god introduced according to your description?
 
In fact, you probably want to avoid US Government anything for such a
project.  The pricetag is invariably too high, either in money or in
hassles.

The important thing to realize here is that the big cost of getting to
the Moon is getting into low Earth orbit.  Everything else is practically
down in the noise.  The only part of getting to the Moon that poses any
new problems, beyond what you face in low orbit, is the last 10km --
the actual landing -- and that is not immensely difficult.  Of course,
you *can* spend sagadollars (saga- is the metric prefix for beelyuns
and beelyuns) on things other than the launches, but you don't have to.

The major component of any realistic plan to go to the Moon cheaply (for
more than a brief visit, at least) is low-cost transport to Earth orbit.
For what it costs to launch one Shuttle or two Titan IVs, you can develop
a new launch system that will be considerably cheaper.  (Delta Clipper
might be a bit more expensive than this, perhaps, but there are less
ambitious ways of bringing costs down quite a bit.)  Any plan for doing
sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting
money in a big way.

Given this, questions like whose launch facilities you use are *not* a
minor detail; they are very important to the cost of the launches, which
dominates the cost of the project.

Read a history book, Fred. And tell me why so many religions command to
commit genocide when it has got nothing to do with religion. Or why so many
religions say that not living up to the standards of the religion is worse
than dieing? Coincidence, I assume. Or ist part of the absolute morality
you describe so often?

[A GOOD DEAL OF HEALTHY IF NOT DEEPLY THOUGHT OUT IDEALISM DELETED
BELOW.]

If their parent company does business (and they will) on the face of the Earth
then they are vulnerable to govt. sanctions.  Yes they can be stopped.

For the first 100 - 500 (IMHO) years nobody will have to.  The colonists will
be too dependent on Earth too pull it off.  Eventually they will, history
shows us that.

What exactly do you mean here?  Terrorism?  Start an international incident
so your dream can come true?  Crack a few eggs to make the omelet?  This
sounds fairly irresponsible.

Again, the tie that binds will be much stronger for space colonists than
any immigrants that have gone before.  Even those intrepid Asian
explorers that crossed the Bering land bridge did not have to carry their
air on their backs.

==    

Keep the dream alive, maybe dream it a little more cogently.

COMMERCIAL SPACE NEWS/SPACE TECHNOLOGY INVESTOR NUMBER 22

   This is number twenty-two in an irregular series on commercial 
space activities.  The commentaries included are my thoughts on 
these developments.  

   Sigh... as usual, I've gotten behind in getting this column 
written.  I can only plead the exigency of the current dynamics in 
the space biz.  This column is put together at lunch hour and after 
the house quiets down at night, so data can quickly build up if 
there's a lot of other stuff going on.  I've complied a lot of 
information and happenings since the last column, so I'm going to 
have to work to keep this one down to a readable length.  Have fun! 

CONTENTS:
1- US COMMERCIAL SPACE SALES FLATTEN IN 1993
2- DELTA WINS TWO KEY LAUNCH CONTRACTS
3- COMMERCIAL REMOTE SENSING VENTURE GETS DOC "GO-AHEAD"
4- INVESTMENT FIRM CALLS GD'S SPACE BIZ "STILL A GOOD INVESTMENT" 
5- ARIANE PREDICTS DIP IN LAUNCH DEMAND
6- NTSB INVESTIGATES PEGASUS LAUNCH OVER ABORTED ABORT
7- ANOTHER PEGASUS COMPETITOR IS ANNOUNCED
8- GEORGIA LAUNCH SITE DROPPED FROM PLANNING
9- SPAIN'S CAPRICORNIA LAUNCHER STILL PROCEEDING
10- PACASTRO SIGNS LAUNCH RESERVATION WITH SWEDISH SPACE CORP
11- CHINA AND TAIWAN JOINT SATELLITE VENTURE REPORTED
12- SOUTH KOREA ANNOUNCES NATIONAL MOVE INTO SPACE TECHNOLOGIES
13- SPACE TECHNOLOGY INDEXES THROUGH MARCH
FINAL NOTES
  
ARTICLES
   The US Department of Commerce projects US commercial space sales 
will remain flat in 1993, with current data showing only a 2 percent 
growth over 1992.  As published in "US Industrial Outlook 1993" 
(which was released in January), revenues from the 1993 US space 
business are currently projected to be about $4,890 M. 
   In contrast to previous years when US commercial space sales had 
shown double digits growth rates, this year's projected results are 
driven by the US satellite manufacturing industry, where sales are 
projected to drop from 12 satellites worth $1,300 M in 1992 to 7 
satellites worth $ 670 M in 1993.  The US Industrial Outlook also 
projects U.S. commercial launchers faces flat demand in coming year, 
and while predicting that 1993 revenues will increase 10 percent to 
$450 M, future sales will be "adversely affected by the downward 
revision in Department of Defense launch plans."                           
   Offsetting flat launch revenues and satellite deliveries, 
revenues for fixed and mobile satellite services are projected to 
increase to $1,900 M, primarily driven by increased revenues from 
broadcast and cable TV networks.  Similarly, remote sensing products 
and sales are projected to increase to $250 M in 1993 (up 15%). 

 US COMMERCIAL SPACE REVENUES     1989  1990   1991 1992(r) 1993(e)
 Commercial satellites             900 1,000  1,100  1,300     670
 Satellite services                750   800  1,200  1,500   1,900
   Fixed                          (700) (735)(1,115)(1,275) (1,520)
   Mobile                          (50) ( 65)(   85)(  225) (  380)
 Satellite ground equip            790   860  1,350  1,400   1,560
   Mobile equipment                (40)  (85)  (280)  (352)    ???
 Commercial launches               150   570    380    450     450
 Remote sensing data and services  125   155    190    215     250
 Private microgravity research lab  --    --     --     --      60
                                 ===== =====  ======  =====   =====
   TOTAL ANNUAL REVENUES         2,715 3,385   4,220  4,815   4,890
        (r) = revised data for 1992   (e) = estimated data for 1993
   [Commentary: This is the first look at how the US commercial 
space industry is expected to do in 1993.  In general, not a bad 
report -- with most of the bad news concentrated in the satellite 
manufacturing area.  There, changes of only a few satellites worth 
$100 M or so apiece can substantially influence the annual 
projection.  If we look forward over several years, this market 
sector should retain strong sales as US firms have been very 
successful in regaining international market share in the satellite 
business. 
   Furthermore, sales of satellite ground equipment should go up in 
the next revision of this data, expected to be released about mid-
year.  Data on mobile satellite ground equipment sales (including 
such items as GPS receivers and portable satellite terminals) 
appears to be missing from the January data set.  DoC usually 
publishes a listing of  "Space Business Indicators" in mid-year, and 
the next revision of commercial space revenues should be released 
then.  I expect the revised revenues should easily top $5,000 M, if 
the mobile satellite ground equipment are added back into the 
numbers, and the year should show about a 10% overall market growth. 
   Looking beyond this year's data, future markets look quite 
promising.  The DoC projects satellite service revenues could top 
$3,000 M by 1995 if new mobile satellite services and direct 
broadcasting are implemented as planned, and that mobile satellite 
station sales are expected to continue to growth at 15-20 % per year 
through the mid 1990's.  My numbers are somewhat more pessimistic 
for near-term market growth, but I agree the trend should be for 
substantial growth in US commercial space sales over at least the 
next 5-10 years.  (My pessimism is due to more conservative 
assumptions on market capture and growth in LEO communications and 
satellite direct broadcasting services.  I don't believe all of the 
current players in the yet-to-be-born LEO communications satellite 
market and in the yet-to-be-proven direct broadcasting market will 
be financial successes, nor that sales growth will be as explosive 
as currently projected.) 
   It should also be noted this year's DoC data is the first 
release to show revenues from privately funded microgravity research 
facilities.  The $60 M shown in the Janurary data is primarily for 
the Spacehab module, planned for launch in April on the Space 
Shuttle, but also hidden in these numbers are the projected first 
sales from the COMET orbital launch and recovery experiment module.] 

   McDonnell Douglas Corporation, which builds and markets the Delta 
launch vehicle has won two important launch contracts.  Motorola 
Inc. announced in mid February that it had selected the Delta to 
launch most of the satellites in the 66-satellite Iridium LEO 
communications constellation, and in mid April, McDonnell Douglas 
was awarded the USAF Medium Launch Vehicle III contract. 
   The launch services contract with Motorola for the Iridium 
constellation launch is for at launch of least 45 Iridium 
satellites.  Another 21 satellites have been contracted to be 
launched by Khrunichev Enterprise in Russian on 3 Proton vehicle 
launches.  These 45 satellites planned for the Delta will be 
launched 5 at a time,  providing for at least 9 launches.  
Additional satellites in the Iridium constellation, such as a 
planned on-orbit spares, may also be launched on Delta.  Although 
details of the launch services contract were reported to be 
negotiation, and not yet final. 
   The USAF MLV contract also went to MDC, bidding a variant of 
their Delta II launcher.  This contract is only initially worth $7.5 
million, but establishes a set of launch options for up to 36 
launches, encompassing launches from 1996 through 2002.  These 
launches will deploy the next generation of the USAF's Global 
Positioning System Block IIR navigation satellites, plus other 
programs.  First option for to meet the USAF launch options is 
expected to be exercised this year, after which the USAF is expected 
to request launches of up to 6 Deltas per year for at least 6 years.  
Under this contract the USAF can also request "launch on demand" 
services from MDC for the 1996-2002 time period, with a launch to 
occur within 40 days of the request. 
    [Commentary:  If these two contracts are fulfilled, they should 
provide an excellent business base for MDC's Delta launch program 
through the turn of the century.  Combined, these two contracts have 
a potential for about 45 launches, worth about $2,200 M to MDC, and 
sustaining a core business base of $300-400 M/year.  Other contracts 
for international and commercial payloads, as well as for NASA 
Medium ELV-class payloads, will add to this business base -- keeping 
MDC as a viable commerical launch company. 
    However, it should be noted there are risk elements in these 
contracts.  Motorola's Iridium LEO communications constellation has 
not yet received a US Federal Communications Commission license for 
operation in the U.S., nor has Motorola lined up all the financing 
and financial partners for the Iridium venture.  Without these 
approvals or financial backing there will be no Iridium launches.  
But, hopefully, these uncertainties will be settled this year. 
   Similarly, the USAF MLV III program has been the target of 
several Congressional actions which have slowed the production of 
the GPS Block IIR satellites and deleted the funding for the MLV III 
program in favor of the USAF NLS/"Spacelifter" program.  At this 
time, while it appears the MLV III contract will be executed, future 
funding for the MLV III and other USAF commercial launch contracts 
is being reconsidered as part of national space launch strategy 
reviews.  Some opinions expressed from within the Administration and 
Congress propose cancellation of all "ELV upgrade" programs 
(including the MLV programs) in favor of the proposed "Spacelifter" 
program.  Such opinions may have some weight in this year's budget 
deliberations, particularly as DoD funds will be more difficult to 
find in the shrinking US Defense budget.] 
 
   The first commercial license to operate a remote sensing 
satellite was approved in early February by the US Department of 
Commerce's Office of Space Commerce.  A license was granted to 
WorldView Imaging Corporation of Oakland, California to build and 
operate a pair of LEO imaging satellites to provide multi-spectral 
images of the Earth. 
   [Commentary:  There has been little data released on this venture 
by WorldView and the DoC, other than the announcement of the 
operating and construction license.  This was reported to be at the 
request of WorldView.  Most industry speculation identifies this new 
venture as a "Star Wars" spinoff, using SDI-type technology to 
provide digital Earth sensing data, and heavily integrated into 
digital GIS databases for remote sensing/GIS users.  Most probable 
customers for this service include exploration geologists, 
agricultural planners, and urban planners.  
   It is noteworthy this is the first commercial venture under the 
1992 Land Remote Sensing Policy Act.  The Act, as passed last 
November, provides that remote sensing data gathered from private remote 
sensing craft may be sold to users at differing prices.  Prior to 
this act, remote sensing data from all satellites had to be sold to 
all users at the same prices, and private remote sensing ventures 
would have had to sell at the government-set Landsat data prices. 
   There are rumors of several other potential commercial remote 
sensing ventures working their way through the system at different 
stages of development.  I think the large Landsat and SPOT satellite 
systems will provide the majority of the satellite remote sensing 
data market for the next decade or so.  In contrast to these large, 
government-sponsored remote sensing systems, smaller market ventures 
such as WorldView and others can exploit market niches and use 
innovative technology, and I believe, can find profitability on the 
margin.  I predict there may be some very interesting ventures 
appearing in the next year or so.] 
                 
   Wall Street investment house Morgan Stanley thinks General 
Dynamic's Space Systems Division could still be a moneymaker, 
despite having failed in the last 3 Atlas launches.  In a recent 
analyst's report Morgan Stanley said "We are more than ever 
convinced that if the company can return the Atlas to its historical 
95%-plus success rate, this will become a highly profitable, cash-
generating unit."  Based upon discussions with GD's corporate 
management, Morgan Stanley projects that if the Atlas problems are 
cleared up the unit could see $70 M in earnings per year by 1995 and 
$100 M per year by 2000.  This is based upon GD's projection of 
capturing about 10 Atlas launches per year on the world market. 
   [Commentary:  Three failures in a row of their launch system has 
hurt General Dynamic's Space Systems Division.  Since GD has 
restructured to only keep a very few profitable core businesses, 
many market pundits have been speculating GD's space business might 
be next to be sold.  The Morgan Stanley report indicates GD's Space 
Systems Division has some potential as a moneymaker, despite current 
problems -- if they can get their act together.  Sales are projected 
to be about $560 M in 1993, which will probably generate a loss of 
about $25 M.  If GD can capture their projected share of the space 
launch market, and if they have managed to clean up the reliability 
of their Atlas launchers, then they could generate healthy profits 
from those sales.  But until they demonstrate the Atlas Centaur 
program is back on track, this division will continue to show 
substantial losses. 
   In response to the sell-off rumors, in my opinion, this operation 
is not a really good candidate for takeover and quick profitability.  
To do such a takeover, the current set corporate and divisional 
management would be replaced with another set from outside the firm.  
In GD SSD's case, to get the division back on track, the management 
team will have to concentrate hard on the technical problems with 
the Atlas Centaur, as well as in selling Atlas services.  This would 
indicate only another firm with experience in rocket launch 
operations could find such talent in-house, and be able to convince 
customers to buy their launch services.  Optimally, the firm would 
have substantial liquid rocket experience, and experience in 
marketing space technology internationally as well.  Candidates for 
this might be TRW, Rockwell, Lockheed, and Martin, and possibly 
McDonnell Douglas and Boeing.  But most of those firms have cash 
flow problems (MDC), have had a substantial business contraction 
(Boeing and MDC), are involved with other launch firms (Lockheed), 
or have taken on substantial debt (Martin).  And coming up with the 
$700-1500 M purchase price for the division is a big chunk of 
change for any company.] 
 
5 - ARIANE PREDICTS DIP IN LAUNCH DEMAND
   Arianespace, the operator of the Ariane launch system, is 
projecting a dip in launch demand in the late 1990's.  In early 
February, Arianespace released their annual market survey, which 
detailed their projection of the space transportation market for the 
next decade. 
   Over short run, Arianespace expects to retain their dominant 
position and sustain a majority share of the launch market.  Of 54 
international and commercial launches planned through 1995, Ariane 
holds contracts for 31, General Dynamics' Atlas vehicle holds 14 
contracts, McDonnell Douglas' Delta holds 7, and Great Wall's Long 
March vehicle holds 2 launch contracts. 
   Three-quarters of future launch contracts for which Ariane can 
compete are projected to come from communications satellites with 
the remaining 25% split between weather, Earth observation, and 
scientific satellites.  Most of the future telecommunications demand 
growth is predicted to come from the Asia/Pacific region. 
   Arianespace expects the current market consolidation of 
individual satellite operators into regional or national groups will 
continue, with these groups investing in heavier satellites with 
larger communications payloads carrying more transponders. 
Arianespace predicts the average mass of telecommunications 
satellites should increase by 20 % over today's average level, to 
about 3000 kg in GEO. 
   Demand for commercial launch services is expected to remain 
strong over the next three years, but in the second half of the 
decade, Arianespace predicts demand will decrease.  Arianespace 
bases this prediction upon a matching of satellite transponder 
demand and supply,  particularly as new data compression techniques 
appear to could double or triple transponder capacity using existing 
or near-term transponders. 
   One of the significant possible changes in the market was 
identified as the arrival of new launch vehicles, including Russian 
launch systems.  But Arianespace predicts that in the long term, 
investors purchasing launch services are looking for the best trade 
off between launch service quality and price, and that Russian and 
other new launch services will have to prove out their capabilities 
and service quality, and their market penetration will be minimal. 
   [Commentary:  Ariane releases their market surveys annually, and 
I reported on their prior market survey in a past issue of CSN/STI.  
Comparing the two surveys, there aren't outstanding differences in 
the numbers.   The most notable change is the consideration of new 
data compression techniques, reducing the demand for new physical 
transponders on orbit.
   I note that in contrast to some predictions, demand for space-
based communications transponders appears to be remain strong. While 
fiber optic lines are making substantial inroads into the 
established point-to-point telecommunications markets, growing 
demand for telecommunications services world wide and for point-to-
multipoint broadcast services have prevented a decrease in space 
transponder demand.  Fiberoptic cables provide a higher capability 
service, but only from established point A to established point B. 
To establish a fiberoptic link it is necessary to install cable 
between the points, and while there are improved network solutions, 
installing a large network of distributed fiberoptic links can cost 
millions or billions of dollars.  
   For broadcast services where there is not an existing ground 
network structure, satellites still offer the most cost effective 
solution.  And if new services are required into a new region, it is 
cheaper to install a small satellite link costing only a few tens of 
thousands of dollars and tie into the existing global satellite 
network.  This allows rapid growth of new satellite services, and 
has kept demand high.  The replacement market for fiberoptics is 
growing as well, since as demand grows between the points serviced, 
it becomes cost effective to later install a fiberoptic link to 
handle the increase in traffic. 
   Since the telecommunications and data transfer markets are still 
growing rapidly, satellite market projections remain rosy.  But 
satellites are also getting longer orbital lifetimes.  Current 
generation satellites are now getting guarantees of at 15 years of 
on-orbit service or more, in contrast to 10 years of service from 
last generation's satellites.  This has cut back some of the launch 
demand, as satellite owners are rescheduling replacement satellite 
launches over longer intervals. 
   And as last note; Arianespace didn't flag it this year, but it 
looks like the space transportation market will be rather over-
supplied by existing launch systems in the near term.  The annual 
commercial launch demand is for about 15-20 medium sized satellites 
per year.  From the supply side, Ariane is capable of launching up 
to about a dozen medium sized satellites a year, Delta is capable of 
about 9-12 per year, Atlas is capable of 6-12, Long March 4-8, 
Japan's H-Vehicle 2-4, Russia's Proton capable of 8, and other 
systems such as Zenit and Soyuz another 10-20 medium launches per 
year.  That's a lot of capability for a small market. 
   We can only expect the competition to intensify for commercial 
launches.]

6- NTSB INVESTIGATES PEGASUS LAUNCH OVER ABORTED ABORT 
   The 9 Feb Pegasus launch by Orbital Sciences Corporation has 
spawned an investigation over an apparent violation of range safety 
rules.  A valid abort order from a NASA range safety officer to halt 
the mission was overridden and the Pegasus was launched in violation 
of range safety rules.  
   In the last few minutes of the Pegasus launch countdown, one of 
two abort command receivers aboard the Pegasus failed.  Such a failure 
typically scrubs a launch,and a NASA range safety officer at 
Wallops Island, VA issued a mission abort order about a minute 
before the scheduled Pegasus launch.  Somehow this command was 
overridden by the OSC launch team or the message was lost in the 
communications channels, and the Pegasus was launched despite the 
valid abort call. 
   Fortunately, the Pegasus functioned as expected, and the abort 
command receiver was not needed.  But this incident did spark an 
investigation since a valid abort order was given under agreed-to 
launch constraint rules, and was not obeyed. 
   Leading the investigation is the National Transportation Safety 
Board (NTSB) with support from NASA, OSC, and the Air Force.  This 
investigation marks the first time NTSB has taken the lead on an 
incident involving a space launch.  According to the NTSB, their 
investigation will take about 6 months, and is primarily looking at 
lines of authority, communications links and safety procedures used 
in the launch. 
  [Commentary: This is the first time that the NTSB has led an 
investigation into a space launch.  Their leadership was requested 
by the Department of Commerce's Office of Commercial Space 
Transportation, who had licensed the commercial launch.  
   At the time of writing this column, some of the initial 
investigations have been concluded, and some of the results are 
starting to leak out into the trade press.  Apparently, 3 or four 
different communications channels were in use during the test. After 
the abort destruct receiver stopped responding, the NASA test 
director and range controller in the Mission Control room at Wallops 
Island gave abort orders about a minute before the launch.  
According to the mission rules, this should have stopped the launch. 
Somehow, the OSC test conductor ordered the abort reversed, and the 
NASA communicator on the net relayed that order to the B-52 carrying 
the Pegasus at about 22 seconds before launch.  Differing 
explainations of exactly how this happened are proposed -- with the 
best set being that clear lines of communications and clear 
definition of the responsibilities of the mission control team, and 
understanding of the mission rules were not established before the 
launch.  
   As we see more and more commercial launches, more of these 
procedural issues are going to crop up and will have to be resolved.   
This case is interesting because it is the first time the NTSB has 
been called in to investigate a commercial launch problem (as they 
do with commercial aircraft problems).  
   I think this problem will turn out to be primarily problems with 
procedures and communications, and will be cleared up with issuance 
of guidelines on how launch communications should be set up and how 
specific lines of authority should be delineated.] 

   Tsniimach Enterprise in Russia announced it is marketing a new 
small space launch system, based upon converted ICBM components.  
Two versions of the launcher are being marketed: the "Aerokosmos" 
winged vehicle launched like the OSC Pegasus, and the "Severkosmos", 
launched from a mobile ground transporter.  The Aerokosmos is 
projected to deliver 900 kg to a 200 km circular orbit or 580 kg to 
an 800 km circular orbit, and the Severkosmos to be capable of 430 
kg to 200 km orbits and 225 kg to 800 km.  Also proposed to be used 
with these launch systems is a LEO data relay system called 
'Sineva'.  Tsniimach Enterprise is described as a ex-military 
establishment, focusing on aerodynamics and thermal protection of 
spacecraft and which has participated in the development of the 
Buran shuttle system,  They are located near the NPO Energia 
facility in Kaliningrad, outside of Moscow. 
   [Commentary: There's very little released information on this new 
venture.  My suspicion is it is another Russian enterprise looking 
for hard currency and trying to capitalize upon their in-house 
knowledge of ex-Soviet launch systems.  It adds to the list of numerous 
commercial space startups announced from the ex-Soviet Union. 
   This one's a little different in that they are offering variants 
of ex-Soviet ICBMs, but I can't identify any key customers being 
targeted or substantial financial backing.]

   In late January, Georgia Tech Research Institute released the 
results of a preliminary study on the feasibility of a commercial 
rocket launching site in Camden County, Georgia at the old Kingsland 
Missile Test Launching Site on the Atlantic coast.  The preliminary 
study recommended the site not be pursued as a commercial launch 
site, stating reopening the site was not feasible due to projected 
low investment returns, plus environmental and other geographic 
considerations.  However, the report did say the site might be ideal 
for other aerospace uses, and recommended other potential uses. 
   [Commentary:  This should put the nails in the coffin of the 
Kingsland Commercial Launch Site.  While other sites are still 
proceeding with commercial launch site development plans, Kingsland 
found without a key customer to act as anchor tenant, and if 
substantial infrastructure had to be put in, then the expected 
returns were too low to justify the cost of development.  
   This might point out some key discriminators in judging the 
feasibility of a commercial launch site.  These include:
  - Is there an identified key customer to provide core usage 
sufficient to recover setup costs?
  - Is there a market advantage of using the site?
  - Can existing infrastructure be used or modified at the site?
  - Can financing be found at low enough cost to support the 
investment?  
   Other commercial launch site ventures -- including those at 
Woomera, Poker Flat, Cape York, White Sands, Alabama Off-Shore 
Platform, Hawaii, and Vandenberg have to also be judged against 
these criteria.  In my opinion, some of these ventures are flying 
on hope and speculation, and not on sound financial grounds.]

   In one of his last official acts, former President Bush 
authorized space technology transfer for several joint space 
ventures between US and other firms.  One of these was a proposed 
use of US technology by Spain to build a small booster.  With that 
regulatory impediment removed, the 3-stage Capricornia launch 
vehicle will start development later this year, planning for a first 
launch in the 1995/96 time period.  The Capricornia is described as 
a small 3-stage all solid booster designed to put 250-500 Kg into 
LEO.  Several launch sites are being examined for the system, 
including 2 on the Iberian peninsula and 1 on the Canary Islands.  
Originated by INTA in Spain, the project reports it has $ 30 M in 
development funding, and will use technology from Argentina's Condor 
launch vehicle as well as from the US. 
   [Commentary:  Several firms have identified a market opportunity 
in providing a small launcher for the European market.  Small 
payloads from European firms or organizations currently use either 
Ariane piggyback launches or the US/Italian Scout launcher.  
However, Ariane piggyback opportunities are limited, and the Scout 
program is being phased out (accompanied by some disarray in the 
Italian government and space industry regarding any follow-on 
system).  
   This has left an apparent niche for a new European small launch 
system.  Surprisingly enough, ESA has not supported development of 
such a system within the current space funding structure.  Studies 
have been performed by British Aerospace, Aerospatiale, Deutsche 
Aerospace, and Italian organizations, but with the exception of the 
Swedish/PacAstro system (reported below), I have not been able to 
find any other European development work with even a rumor of 
funding for hardware. 
   Also of interest is the linking of the Capricornia to the 
Argentinian Condor launcher.  There have been some interesting 
rumors surfacing out of Argentina over the past year about a space 
launcher/IRBM program funded under the military junta which ruled 
the country in the 1970's and early 1980's. 
   What is known is in Feb 1992, the Argentinian Air Force formally 
transferred control of the Condor 2 missile program to the new 
civilian Argentinian national space agency (Comison Nacional de 
Atividades Espaciales - CNAE).  The Condor 2 program was described 
as originating in 1983, expanding upon the smaller Condor 1 rocket 
program in collaboration with Egypt and with support of German 
firms.  The Condor 2 was also reportedly funded indirectly by Iraq 
in the mid-1980's.  Fairly large solid rocket motors were built and 
tested, but Argentinan development of a suitable guidance package 
lagged that of the propulsion system. 
   It should be noted CNAE is planning to launch its first 
scientific satellite in late 1994.  The US$ 9 M, 181 Kg, SAC-B 
satellite will study the Earth's upper atmosphere and includes 
cooperative experiments from Italy and the US. No launch vehicle has 
yet been selected, but OSC's Pegasus and the Russian Burlak Air 
launched rocket are reported to be strong contenders for this 
contract.] 

   PacAstro, a small launch firm in Herndon, Virginia announced in 
late February it had received a $6 M launch reservation contract 
from the Swedish Space Corp to launch a satellite on PacAstro's PA-2 
launch vehicle.   This will be performed as part of the Polar 
Satellite Service (PSS), a joint Norwegian Space Center/ Swedish 
Space Corp. program to upgrade the Andoya Rocket Range in Norway and 
offering small satellite launches into the polar regions.  According 
to PacAstro, PSS is also performing an $8 M upgrade of the Andoya 
launch facilities, including a new integration facility and a fully-
enclosed vertical assembly building for small launch vehicles like 
the PacAstro PA-2.  PacAstro has been chosen as "the main 
alternative rocket supplier" for the small satellite launch service 
to be offered by PSS from Andoya.  The date of the launch of the 
Swedish satellite was not specified. 
   [Commentary:  PacAstro has been trying to line up customers and 
funding for their launch vehicle for some time now.  The PA-2 is a 
small, two stage rocket fueled by RP-1 and Liquid Oxygen.  From 
PacAstro's literature, the engines designed for the PA-series 
rockets are built of "off the shelf" components based upon the Lunar 
MOdule Descent Engines built by TRW, and are capable of putting a 
225 Kg satellite into a 750 km circular polar orbit.  
   PacAstro is trying to arrange construction financing for its 
first three PA-2 vehicles, with a first launch planned for 1995, and 
2 orbital launches planned for 1996.  My records show PacAstro hired 
TRW to provide marketing support and systems design,  with primary 
engineering to be done by AeroAstro, a small satellite builder 
closely associated with PacAstro (headquartered in the same 
building).  The Swedish Space Corporation would supply engineering, 
launch operations, vehicle subsystems, and marketing support. 
Sumitomo Corp. of Tokyo, is a first round investor and sits on the 
board of directors.  
   PacAstro has gotten a first round financial package of at least 
$550 K  (Some sources place this of high as $1 M), but has been 
searching for about a year for the additional $20-30 M needed to 
design, build and launch their first set of vehicles. 
   The launch reservation from SSC can possibly be used to help 
bring some investors on board, but by my estimate, they will need 
much more than the single $6 M sale to put their venture into real 
hardware.] 

    In early March, it was reported a joint satellite communications 
venture between a Taiwanese and mainland Chinese was in the works.  
As reported in the Taipei press, China Development Corp. (CDC), 
headquartered in Taiwam and with links to the ruling Nationalist 
Party, is planning to set up a joint venture in Hong Kong with China 
Great Wall Industry Corp. with the objective of launching a regional 
communications satellite. CDC would cover about 10% of the satellite 
system cost (US $10 M) in exchange for rights to 10% of the 
satellite's communications channels.  
   [Commentary:  This announcement came close on the heels of the 
release of Taiwanese plans for space development (released in mid 
January).   In those plans, the National Space Program Office of 
Taiwan will launch 3 satellites, starting with ROCSAT-1, a 400 Kg 
scientific spacecraft, planned for launch in 1997.  Two additional 
satellites are planned, both communications satellites.   TRW has 
been helping Taiwan plan this program, budgeted at T$13.6 B (US $530 
M) through 2006.  
   I haven't been able to establish any relationship between this 
venture and those of the NSPOT, but there might be a connection.  
While Taiwan has the financing to pursue several ventures, the 
current Taiwanese telecommunications market might not support two 
separate sastellite ventures. 
   The reported name for the Tiawanese/Chinese system is "Asiasat-
2", but I don't thinks this has any relationship with the existing 
Hong Kong-based "Asiasat" program involving Chinese, Hong Kong, and 
other Asian investors, other than using it as an organizational 
model.  There are some obvious advantages to pursuing such a joing 
venture -- it could provide excellent first-hand experience to 
Taiwan for a very low cost, which then can be used in later 
satellite ventures.  But there are internal political issues between 
Taiwanese and Chinese ventures, but putting any joint venture 
through a  Hong Kong intermediary corporation might allow it to 
proceed. 
   In any case, the East Asian satellite market is lighting up with 
substantially growth projected in space services and revenues.  This 
is just another indicator to add to the list.] 

   South Korea's Trade, Industry and Resources Ministry recently 
announced plans to invest US$22 B in research and development and 
another US$17 B into manufacturing and research facilities for 
advanced aerospace technologies.  Space technologies have been 
specifically targeted as part of this program, beginning with 
manufacture and launch of an advanced multi-purpose satellite by 
1997.  The objective of this investment is to raise South Korea's 
aerospace technology to the level of the world's top 10 countries by 
2000.                                 
   [Commentary: South Korea has been quietly working to develop its 
national aerospace industry, specifically including space 
activities. I'm noting this as a flag that potential new players are 
coming into the commercial space market. 
   As part of their national effort, 2 national telecommunications 
satellites for Korea Telecom will be launched in April and Oct 1995 
on Delta. Designated Koreasat 1 and 2, the platforms will provide 
television and telephone service throughout the Korean Peninsula, 
southwestern Japan and portions of China bordering North Korea. 
   South Korea launched its first small satellite piggyback on 
Ariane in Aug 1992, called Uribyol-1 (Our Star) and costing about US 
$8.8 M.  Uribyol-2 is planned for piggyback launch in October of 
this year, again on Ariane, and will be entirely "made in Korea."  
Uribyol-3, projected for a 1995 launch, will be an environment-
monitoring micro-satellite. 
   This satellite may be the precursor to a series of small Earth 
observation satellites,  The KEOS (Korean Earth Observation System) 
project, which has been submitted for approval to the South Korean 
government, would use two or three 300-kg spacecraft equipped with 
optical and microwave sensors.
   South Korean press reports claim there is also a parallel 
military effort to establish the capabilities for building and 
launching small military satellites by 2001.  Supposedly a 
government panel had been established to oversee such an effort, 
funded at US $ 500 M between 1993 and 2001, in anticipation of an  
expected pullout of U.S. intelligence-gathering systems from the 
Korean peninsula.       
   In conjunction with all of these reported efforts, South Korean 
is also pursuing production work either as off-sets to existing 
aerospace technology contracts (for example, McDonnell Douglas is 
offsetting production of some Delta parts to South Korean firms as 
part of the Koreasat launch contracts), or for production of 
consumer space items (among other products, South Korea exports 
satellite receiver television setups to Japan, and Samsung has 
announced teaming for production of OSC's Orbcomm user terminals.).  
   This looks like a very aggressive push into space technologies.  
Considering that East Asia is currently the fastest growing sector 
for commercial space services (primarily for telecommunications), a 
South Korean push into space technologies may change the composition 
of commercial space market there over the next decade.] 

   As announced in the last CSN/STI, each issue will give the 
results of stock indexes and portfolios regarding space stocks and 
investments.  The table below summarizes results to the end of 
March.  The Space Technology Index did quite a bit better than the 
market as a whole, as represented by the S&P 500 index.  Since 90+% 
of the values included in the index are US firms, this represents a 
general increase in the market value of space-related firms.  The 
increase in the first quarter is more than in all of 1992 -- which 
is a very promising sign, although future months may reverse this 
trend. The Commercial Space Technology Index has also done quite 
well, but the Pure Play portfolio -- consisting of stocks of firms 
which are pure plays in space technologies -- has also surpassed its 
results in all of 1993.  We'll keep an eye on these ....

   INDEX RESULTS THROUGH MARCH
                           Beginning  Beginning      1 Jan 93 to
                           1992       1993           31 Mar 1993
                           -------    --------       --------
   S&P 500                 416        436  (+4.7%)   452  (+3.7%)
   Space Tech Index        267        304 (+13.6%)   373 (+22.7%)
   Comm'l Space Tech Index 167        194 (+16.3%)   222 (+14.2%)
   Space Tech Pure Plays   147        169 (+15.4%)   197 (+16.2%)

FINAL NOTES - 
    What?  This column's already full?  And I still have bunches of 
commercial space developments to report on.  As I said at the start 
of this, column there's been a lot of interesting happenings - but 
I'll have to put them into the next issue.  
   Looking ahead, I've got several articles in the works on new 
happenings with Iridium and the LEO communications satellite market, 
more news on international launchers appearing (and disappearing) on 
the market, new international commercial space ventures,  and other 
interesting developments. 
   And as always, I hope you folks find this stuff useful and 
interesting -- Any and all comments are welcome. 

Is there a few Grasp pictures of space related items, namely Space Station
Designs, so you can see the "finished" revolt around..

If you don't know what a grasp prograsm is.. Check out some adult entertainment
files and see what I mean.. Or maybe geta few GIF files and create a "slide
shows" (I think Cshow can do this).. 

Those things,
	which ye have both learned, and received,
	and heard, and seen in me,
	do:
	and the God of peace shall be with you.

I missed the presentations given in the morning session (when Shea gave
his "rambling and almost inaudible" presentation), but I did attend
the afternoon session. The meeting was in a small conference room. The
speaker was wired with a mike, and there were microphones on the table for
the panel members to use. Peons (like me) sat in a foyer outside the
conference room, and watched the presentations on closed circuit TV. In
general, the sound system was fair to poor, and some of the other
speakers (like the committee member from the Italian Space Agency)
also were "almost inaudible."

Shea didn't "lead the formal presentation," in the sense of running
or guiding the presentation. He didn't even attend the afternoon
session. Vest ran the show (President of MIT, the chair of the
advisory panel).

I'm looking for the following paper:

Marlow, S. and Powell, M.J.D.
A FORTRAN subroutine for plotting the part of a conic that is inside a given
triangle. Rep. R-8336, Atomic Energy Res. Establishment, Harwell, England
1976

Or anything related (including 3D cases)
 Max
--
Max Froumentin                    |
Laboratoire d'Informatique        |  "Always better, never first."         
Fondamentale de Lille             |         - Tigran Petrossian
France                            |

JOB OPPORTUNITY
		      ---------------

SERI(Systems Engineering Research Institute), of KIST(Korea
Institute of Science and Technology) is looking for the resumes
for the following position and need them by the end of June (6/30). 
If you are interested, send resumes to:

	CAD/CAE lab (6th floor)
	Systems Engineering Research Institute
	Korea Institute of Science and Technology 
	Yousung-Gu, Eoeun-Dong,
	Daejon. Korea
	305-600

	COMPANY: Systems Engineering Research Institute

	TITLE  : Senior Research Scientist

	JOB DESCRIPTION : In depth knowledge of C.
	Working knowledge of Computer Aided Design.
	Working knowledge of Computer Graphics.
	Working knowledge of Virtual Reality.
	Skills not required but desirable : knowledge of
	data modeling, virtual reality experience,
	understanding of client/server architecture.

	REQUIREMENT : Ph.D

	JOB LOCATION : Daejon, Korea

	Contact Info : Chul-Ho, Lim
		       CAD/CAE lab (6th floor)
		       Systems Engineering Research Institute
		       Korea Institute of Science and Technology 
	       	       Yousung-Gu, Eoeun-Dong,
		       Daejon. Korea
		       305-600

In two places at once? Bit of a coincidence, that.

Whatever the faults the FBI had, the fact is that responsibility
for those deaths lies with Koresh.

P.

Tony-

While I honestly believe you believe you are doing a "good thing" by posting
that piece of propaganda, I believe the more people believe that the more they
will feel justified in their blatant persecution of gay oriented people.  I
have seen the film called "The Gay Agenda" and along with my church we found
it to be horrifying.  Not because of what was actually shown (cleaver use of
editting can create any image one wants to portray), rather becaseu we are familia
familiar with how widely it was actively distributed and how many naive people
are actually believing the garbage found within it.  The truth is that neither
you nor I can fully speak for anyone who calls themself gay, but knowing as
many as I do and knowing their testimonies and witnessing thier faith and life
I have to say that the report you posted is a very biased report, something
obviously claimed against gays as well.  The truth is that unless YOU are
innately gay you cannot know what harm you are causing.  I speak as an
abolitionist who supports affirming gay rights in our society.  I do not
support wild sex or any other misrepresentations perpetrated by Christian
Fundamentalist extremists, but I know people who are not the sexual deviants
your report paints them to be.  It is no mistake that the APA removed
homosexuality from it's list of mental illnesses, it is also no mistake that
there are many Christians and homophobes who long to bring it back to the list.
I do not feel threatened by gays, I don't understand why others are.

The following is an article concerning two of the more popular ex-gay min-
istries:  Exodus International & Homosexuals Anonymous.

THE FOUNDER OF AN "EX-GAY" SUPPORT GROUP CHOOSES HOMO OVER HETERO

by Robert Pela (from Gay oriented magazine ADVOCATE)

In December 1985, David Caligiuri received one of The Advocate's homophobia rewaa
awards: the A Prayer A Day Keeps the Lust Away citation.  As director of FREE
INDEED, a national ex-gay ministry, Caligiuri was singled out for offering
discontented gays and lesbians "a way out of the homosexual death-style"
through prayer.  "I'd like to give the award back," Caligiuri now laughs, "I'm
no longer deserve it."
  Caligiuri's eight year involvement with the national "ex-gay" movement peaked
with his founding of the Phoenix chapter of Homosexuals Anonymous (HA) as well
as Free Indeed.  He has since abandoned his pulpit and now says that the ex-
gay movement is a fruitless effort based on deception.  "There's no reality
in it," he says, "I was selling a product, and my product was a lie."
  Headed up by national ministries like Exodus International and Courage, the
organizations of the ex-gay movement rely on the tenents of born-again
Christianity to convince disatisfied homosexuals -- usually young gay men who
are just coming out -- that they can shed their sexuality by suppressing their
sexual urges and embracing Christianity.  "We offer support to people who are
seeking to leave the sin of homosexuality," explains Bob Davies, director of
Exodus.  He ventures that "about 80% of those seeking to abandon their homo-
sexuality are men."
  "Anybody who is involved in the ex-gay ministry is misguided and is wasting
their time," says Lisa Seeley, a former "redeemed lesbian" who worked with
Caligiuri as HA and appeared with him on the Sally Jessy Raphael show.  "These
organizations are for people who are spiritually and emotionally wounded."
  "It's possible to change your identity or your behavior," says sex educator
Brian McNaught, author of _On Being Gay_. "But it's really impossible to
change your orientation.  These people are no longer calling themselves gay,
but they continue to have same-sex erotic feelings."
  Caligiuri says he founded Free Indeed after an ominous week in 1981 when all
hell broke loose in his personal life.  A few days after his lover ended both
their romance and their business partnership, Caligiuri was sexually assaulted
by a man he picked up in a bar.  "I was really drunk," he recalls, "and I
went home with this guy.  He tied me up and raped me.  He left me tied up all
night, and the next morning he raped me again."
  When Caligiuri was eventually freed by the attacker, he returned home to the
home he shared with his ex-lover.  "He had another man there with him,"
Caligiuri recalls.  "I thought at this time, 'If this is what being gay is
about, I don't want to be this way anymore."
  Caligiuri vowed that if he could find a way out, he would share his discovery
with others.  He organized an antigay contingent to demonstrate at Phoenix's
gay pride parade in June 1985, and a few months later Free Indeed held its
first public protest.  At a meeting to promote a gay civil rights ordinance,
Free Indeed members loudly blasted gays, telling them ther were sinners headed
for hell.
  Free Indeed began receiving about a hundred telephone calls a week, thanks
in part to a deceptive listing in the local yellow pages.  "We were listed
under Lesbian and Gay Alternative Services," Caligiuri says, "so people
thought we were a gay information switchboard.  People would call to find out
where the local bars were, and we'd preach to them about the sins of homo-
sexuality."  Ruses like this are typical of the movement, Caligiuri says,
adding, "They'll do anything to reach these people."
  "David used to go on radio and say really stupid things," recalls Peter
Kelly, a counselor at Phoenix's Catholic diocese AIDS program, "like that
he knew he was gay when he started wearing pastel colors."
  Caligiuri's family first found out about his ministry when they saw him on
Raphael's syndicated talk show in 1985.  "They were relieved," he recalls.
"They figured that if they had to have a gay person in the family, better
that I should be a 'reformed' gay person."
  But Caligiuri was hardly reformed.  "By the time I appeared on Sally's
show," "I'd started having sex with men again.  Men would call our hotline
and tell me about thier latest sin: sex with their pastor, sex with their
father.  I was horny all the time."
  Unable to risk going to gay bars, where he might be recognized from his
numerous television appearances, Caligiuri says he "used to go to bookstores
and get blowjobs."  When he wasn't working the bookstores, he was sleeping
with other "reformed" homosexuals.
  "I didn't realize it at first, but a lot of the HA leaders were having sex
with one another," Caligiuri says.  "We'd go to conferences in other cities,
and we'd be paired up in hotel rooms.  Everybody was sleeping with everybody
else."
  By the time he appeared on 'AM Philadelphia' television show in May 1988,
Caligiuri was having anonymous sex a couple times a week.  When the show's
host asked him if he ever "acted on temptation," his answer was a lie.
  Caligiuri's duplicity began to take it's toll on him, however.  He was
suffering from chrinic fatigue syndrome and candidiasis, a dibilitating
yeast infection, and this led to his escape from the sect.  "I was too sick
to go to church," he explains.  "The more time I spent away from those people
the more I began to feel like myself.  I began to remember who I used to be."
  Late in 1991, Caligiuri turned Free Indeed phone lines over to a local
church and closed the ministry's doors.  "I'd convinced myself that there
is no need in the world for ex-gay people," he says.
  Today, Caligiuri, 31, is studying alternative spiritualities ("I'm interest-
ed in belief systems that aren't judgemental."), considering romance ("But
not with a CHristian!"), and searching for a new project to devote himself to.
"I feel compelled to commit myself to gay causes," he says.  "I want to
eventually stop feeling guilty about what I did and make up for the damage I
may have brought to our community."

---end article---

Caligiuri's tory is by no means unique and I have read several other articles
of former leaders and founders of 'ex-gay' ministries who have said very similar th
similar things.  Fortuantely not all of them have left Christianity, but have
come to realize that God loves them despite the attitudes of others.  Some,
like Chris Glaser, director of the Presbyterian "Lazarus Project" of West
Hollywood Presbyterian Church have actually been working with the gay community
to bring them into the sheepfold of Christ and encouraging real ethical values
of sexuality within the sphere of being gay.  I have also, as I said talked and become
and become close friends with many who once attended such groups as "Love In
Action" and others, who either once claimed to have been "reformed" or who
were too honest with themselves to live a lie, no matter who was disappointed
in them.  Some were even encouraged to marry as a way of "sealing" their
new heterosexuality, only to eventually start hitting the bars, bathhouses
and bookstores, since these were usually activities under the concealment of
night and one-night-stands of promiscuous behavior meant no continuous "sin"
through a committed relationship.  This is a horrible trap which the CHurch
has dumped on the backs of the truly gay oriented people, and the very inno-
cent victims in these cases are the wives and children of such marriages.  Yet
the church insists that there are only two options they are willing to allow
gay people: 1) heterosexuality or 2) celebacy.  This is sad.  What is also
mrtifying, is in the cases of those who cannot suppress their desires and
fear for thier sanity in such a mixed up confusion that the church forces on
them, they may even opt for 'suicide' or surgical dampering of the brain
functions.  In the past lobotomies and heavey drug suppressants were common-
place.  There are now becoming available more and more literature on the
threat of coercive Christianity toward gays, such as Sylvia Pennington's
_"Ex-Gays?  There Are None_. and others.  There are also a great many fact
based books being written to help people trapped in this confusion such as
Maury Johnston's _Gays Under Grace_, and Chris Glaser's _Come Hom!_.  I
seriously recommend those for people seeking help for this persecution and
self-acceptance.

Is it not the case that, in the eyes of the law, when someone is aware of
something and has the capability of taking action and does not, that individual
may be held responsible for that action?

Example: the driver of a getaway car may be held as an accomplice to murder.
	 The "I didn't know" defense spawned the "ignorance of the law is no excuse"

When an individual is held as a material witness to a crime, is there a criminal
charge against the individual?  If not, on what grounds is the person imprisoned?

You probably need an X server running on top of MS DOS.  I use Desqview/X
but any MS-DOS X server should do.

-- 

Hi!

I need a Windows 3.1 driver for the Matrox PG-1281 CV
SVGA card. 
At the moment Windows runs only in the 640x480 mode.
If you have a driver for this card, please send it 
with the OEMSETUP.INF to 

bockamp@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE

Thanks!

I think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how
deviant the view _as I've articulated it above_ (which may not be
the true view of Khomeini) is from the basic principles of Islam. 
So that the non-muslim readers of this group will see how far from 
the simple basics of Islam such views are on the face of them. And 
if they are _not_ in contradiction with the basics of Islam, how 
subtle such issues are and how it seems sects exist in Islam while 
they are explicitly proscribed by the Qur'an.

In my opinion considering any human being as having a substance
or metaphysical fundamentally different from that of any other human
being _is_ a heretical notion and one proscribed by Islam. 

Absolutely! I would be interested in discussing this privately and
I am interested in hearing how one might try to make the concept of
error-free and sinless human beings philosophically consistent with
the teachings of the Qur'an. However, _prima facie_ such attemptsa
are highly susceptible to degenerating into monkery, explicitly
proscribed by the Qur'an.

Alaikum Wassalam

They aren't going to leave a loophole as glaring as space mining.  Quite a
few of those people are, when you come right down to it, basically against
industrial civilization.  They won't stop with shutting down the mines here;
that is only a means to an end for them now.

The worst thing you can say to a true revolutionary is that his revolution
is unnecessary, that the problems can be corrected without radical change.
Telling people that paradise can be attained without the revolution is
treason of the vilest kind.

Trying to harness these people to support spaceflight is like trying to
harness a buffalo to pull your plough.  He's got plenty of muscle, all
right, but the furrow will go where he wants, not where you want.

Craig-

I thought it was derived from a Greek acronym.  My Greek isn't up to much, but
it goes something like this:

	Jesus Christ, God => Iesus CHristos, THeos => Ichthos

which is the Greek for "fish" (as in, eg "ichthysaurus").

Apologies for my dreadful Greek!  Perhaps someone will correct it.

By the way, what does your sig mean?

: 8~> I require BGI drivers for Super VGA Displays and Super XVGA Displays. Does 
: 8~> anyone know where I could obtain the relevant drivers ? (FTP sites ??)

: 	I would like to know too!

: Regards,
: Dominic

garbo.uwasa.fi (or one of its many mirrors) has a file
called "svgabg40" in the programming subdirectory.
These are svga bgi drivers for a variety of cards.

[from the README]:
"Card types supported: (SuperVGA drivers)
  Ahead, ATI, Chips & Tech, Everex, Genoa, Paradise, Oak, Trident (both 8800 
  and 8900, 9000), Tseng (both 3000 and 4000 chipsets) and Video7.
  These drivers will also work on video cards with VESA capability.
  The tweaked drivers will work on any register-compatible VGA card."

enjoy,
Clark Verbrugge
clump@cs.mcgill.ca

--

Hi, 

the subject says it all. Is there a PD viewer for gl files (for X)?

Thanks

A question regarding the Islamic view towards homosexuality came up in a
discussion group that I participate in, and I'd like to ask the question here,

"What is the Islamic view towards homosexuality?"             

Sure.  Contact the World Space Foundation.  They're listed in the sci.space
Frequently Asked Questions file, which I'll excerpt.

    WORLD SPACE FOUNDATION - has been designing and building a solar-sail
    spacecraft for longer than any similar group; many JPL employees lend
    their talents to this project. WSF also provides partial funding for the
    Palomar Sky Survey, an extremely successful search for near-Earth
    asteroids. Publishes *Foundation News* and *Foundation Astronautics
    Notebook*, each a quarterly 4-8 page newsletter. Contributing Associate,
    minimum of $15/year (but more money always welcome to support projects).

	World Space Foundation
	Post Office Box Y
	South Pasadena, California 91301

WSF put together a little paperback anthology of fiction and
nonfiction about solar sails: *Project Solar Sail*.  I think Robert
Staehle, David Brin,  or Arthur Clarke may be listed as editor.

Also there is a nontechnical book on solar sailing by Louis Friedman,
a technical one by a guy whose name escapes me (help me out, Josh),
and I would expect that Greg Matloff and Eugene Mallove have something
to say about the subject in *The Starflight Handbook*, as well as
quite a few references.

Check the following articles in *Journal of the British Interplanetary
Society*:

V36 p. 201-209 (1983)
V36 p. 483-489 (1983)
V37 p. 135-141 (1984)
V37 p. 491-494 (1984)
V38 p. 113-119 (1984)
V38 p. 133-136 (1984)

(Can you guess that Matloff visited Fermilab and gave me a bunch of
reprints? I just found the file.)

And K. Eric Drexler's paper "High Performance Solar Sails and Related
Reflecting Devices," AIAA paper 79-1418, probably in a book called
*Space Manufacturing*, maybe the proceedings of the Second (?)
Conference on Space Manufacturing.  The 1979 one, at any rate.

Archive-name: space/groups
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:08 $

SPACE ACTIVIST/INTEREST/RESEARCH GROUPS AND SPACE PUBLICATIONS

    GROUPS

    AIA -- Aerospace Industry Association. Professional group, with primary
	membership of major aerospace firms. Headquartered in the DC area.
	Acts as the "voice of the aerospace industry" -- and it's opinions
	are usually backed up by reams of analyses and the reputations of
	the firms in AIA.

	    [address needed]

    AIAA -- American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics.
	Professional association, with somewhere about 30,000-40,000
	members. 65 local chapters around the country -- largest chapters
	are DC area (3000 members), LA (2100 members), San Francisco (2000
	members), Seattle/NW (1500), Houston (1200) and Orange County
	(1200), plus student chapters. Not a union, but acts to represent
	aviation and space professionals (engineers, managers, financial
	types) nationwide. Holds over 30 conferences a year on space and
	aviation topics publishes technical Journals (Aerospace Journal,
	Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets, etc.), technical reference books
	and is _THE_ source on current aerospace state of the art through
	their published papers and proceedings. Also offers continuing
	education classes on aerospace design. Has over 60 technical
	committees, and over 30 committees for industry standards. AIAA acts
	as a professional society -- offers a centralized resume/jobs
	function, provides classes on job search, offers low-cost health and
	life insurance, and lobbies for appropriate legislation (AIAA was
	one of the major organizations pushing for IRAs - Individual
	Retirement Accounts). Very active public policy arm -- works
	directly with the media, congress and government agencies as a
	legislative liaison and clearinghouse for inquiries about aerospace
	technology technical issues. Reasonably non-partisan, in that they
	represent the industry as a whole, and not a single company,
	organization, or viewpoint.

	Membership $70/yr (student memberships are less).

	American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
	The Aerospace Center
	370 L'Enfant Promenade, SW
	Washington, DC 20077-0820
	(202)-646-7400

    AMSAT - develops small satellites (since the 1960s) for a variety of
	uses by amateur radio enthusiasts. Has various publications,
	supplies QuickTrak satellite tracking software for PC/Mac/Amiga etc.

	Amateur Satellite Corporation (AMSAT)
	P.O. Box 27
	Washington, DC 20044
	(301)-589-6062

    ASERA - Australian Space Engineering and Research Association. An
	Australian non-profit organisation to coordinate, promote, and
	conduct space R&D projects in Australia, involving both Australian
	and international (primarily university) collaborators. Activities
	include the development of sounding rockets, small satellites
	(especially microsatellites), high-altitude research balloons, and
	appropriate payloads. Provides student projects at all levels, and
	is open to any person or organisation interested in participating.
	Publishes a monthly newsletter and a quarterly technical journal.

	Membership $A100 (dual subscription)
	Subscriptions $A25 (newsletter only) $A50 (journal only)

	ASERA Ltd
	PO Box 184
	Ryde, NSW, Australia, 2112
	email: lindley@syd.dit.csiro.au

    BIS - British Interplanetary Society. Probably the oldest pro-space
	group, BIS publishes two excellent journals: _Spaceflight_, covering
	current space activities, and the _Journal of the BIS_, containing
	technical papers on space activities from near-term space probes to
	interstellar missions. BIS has published a design study for an
	interstellar probe called _Daedalus_.

	British Interplanetary Society
	27/29 South Lambeth Road
	London SW8 1SZ
	ENGLAND

	No dues information available at present.

    ISU - International Space University. ISU is a non-profit international
	graduate-level educational institution dedicated to promoting the
	peaceful exploration and development of space through multi-cultural
	and multi-disciplinary space education and research. For further
	information on ISU's summer session program or Permanent Campus
	activities please send messages to 'information@isu.isunet.edu' or
	contact the ISU Executive Offices at:

	International Space University
	955 Massachusetts Avenue 7th Floor
	Cambridge, MA 02139
	(617)-354-1987 (phone)
	(617)-354-7666 (fax)

    L-5 Society (defunct). Founded by Keith and Carolyn Henson in 1975 to
	advocate space colonization. Its major success was in preventing US
	participation in the UN "Moon Treaty" in the late 1970s. Merged with
	the National Space Institute in 1987, forming the National Space
	Society.

    NSC - National Space Club. Open for general membership, but not well
	known at all. Primarily comprised of professionals in aerospace
	industry. Acts as information conduit and social gathering group.
	Active in DC, with a chapter in LA. Monthly meetings with invited
	speakers who are "heavy hitters" in the field. Annual "Outlook on
	Space" conference is _the_ definitive source of data on government
	annual planning for space programs. Cheap membership (approx
	$20/yr).

    NSS - the National Space Society. NSS is a pro-space group distinguished
	by its network of local chapters. Supports a general agenda of space
	development and man-in-space, including the NASA space station.
	Publishes _Ad Astra_, a monthly glossy magazine, and runs Shuttle
	launch tours and Space Hotline telephone services. A major sponsor
	of the annual space development conference. Associated with
	Spacecause and Spacepac, political lobbying organizations.

	Membership $18 (youth/senior) $35 (regular).

	National Space Society
	Membership Department
	922 Pennsylvania Avenue, S.E.
	Washington, DC 20003-2140
	(202)-543-1900

    Planetary Society - founded by Carl Sagan. The largest space advocacy
	group. Publishes _Planetary Report_, a monthly glossy, and has
	supported SETI hardware development financially. Agenda is primarily
	support of space science, recently amended to include an
	international manned mission to Mars.

	The Planetary Society
	65 North Catalina Avenue
	Pasadena, CA 91106

	Membership $35/year.

    SSI - the Space Studies Institute, founded by Dr. Gerard O'Neill.
	Physicist Freeman Dyson took over the Presidency of SSI after
	O'Neill's death in 1992. Publishes _SSI Update_, a bimonthly
	newsletter describing work-in-progress. Conducts a research program
	including mass-drivers, lunar mining processes and simulants,
	composites from lunar materials, solar power satellites. Runs the
	biennial Princeton Conference on Space Manufacturing.

	Membership $25/year. Senior Associates ($100/year and up) fund most
	    SSI research.

	Space Studies Institute
	258 Rosedale Road
	PO Box 82
	Princeton, NJ 08540

    SEDS - Students for the Exploration and Development of Space. Founded in
	1980 at MIT and Princeton. SEDS is a chapter-based pro-space
	organization at high schools and universities around the world.
	Entirely student run. Each chapter is independent and coordinates
	its own local activities. Nationally, SEDS runs a scholarship
	competition, design contests, and holds an annual international
	conference and meeting in late summer.

	Students for the Exploration and Development of Space
	MIT Room W20-445
	77 Massachusetts Avenue
	Cambridge, MA  02139
	(617)-253-8897
	email: odyssey@athena.mit.edu

	Dues determined by local chapter.

    SPACECAUSE -  A political lobbying organization and part of the NSS
	Family of Organizations. Publishes a bi-monthly newsletter,
	Spacecause News. Annual dues is $25. Members also receive a discount
	on _The Space Activist's Handbook_. Activities to support pro-space
	legislation include meeting with political leaders and interacting
	with legislative staff. Spacecause primarily operates in the
	legislative process.

	National Office			West Coast Office
	Spacecause			Spacecause
	922 Pennsylvania Ave. SE	3435 Ocean Park Blvd.
	Washington, D.C. 20003		Suite 201-S
	(202)-543-1900			Santa Monica, CA 90405

    SPACEPAC - A political action committee and part of the NSS Family of
	Organizations. Spacepac researches issues, policies, and candidates.
	Each year, updates _The Space Activist's Handbook_. Current Handbook
	price is $25. While Spacepac does not have a membership, it does
	have regional contacts to coordinate local activity. Spacepac
	primarily operates in the election process, contributing money and
	volunteers to pro-space candidates.

	Spacepac
	922 Pennsylvania Ave. SE
	Washington, DC 20003

    UNITED STATES SPACE FOUNDATION - a public, non-profit organization
	supported by member donations and dedicated to promoting
	international education, understanding and support of space. The
	group hosts an annual conference for teachers and others interested
	in education. Other projects include developing lesson plans that
	use space to teach other basic skills such as reading. Publishes
	"Spacewatch," a monthly B&W glossy magazine of USSF events and
	general space news. Annual dues:

		Charter		$50 ($100 first year)
		Individual	$35
		Teacher		$29
		College student $20
		HS/Jr. High	$10
		Elementary	 $5
		Founder &     $1000+
		    Life Member

	United States Space Foundation
	PO Box 1838
	Colorado Springs, CO 80901
	(719)-550-1000

    PUBLICATIONS

    Aerospace Daily (McGraw-Hill)
	Very good coverage of aerospace and space issues. Approx. $1400/yr.

    Air & Space / Smithsonian (bimonthly magazine)
	Box 53261
	Boulder, CO 80332-3261
	$18/year US, $24/year international

    ESA - The European Space Agency publishes a variety of periodicals,
	generally available free of charge. A document describing them in
	more detail is in the Ames SPACE archive in
	pub/SPACE/FAQ/ESAPublications.

    Final Frontier (mass-market bimonthly magazine) - history, book reviews,
	general-interest articles (e.g. "The 7 Wonders of the Solar System",
	"Everything you always wanted to know about military space
	programs", etc.)

	Final Frontier Publishing Co.
	PO Box 534
	Mt. Morris, IL 61054-7852
	$14.95/year US, $19.95 Canada, $23.95 elsewhere

    Space News (weekly magazine) - covers US civil and military space
	programs. Said to have good political and business but spotty
	technical coverage.

	Space News
	Springfield VA 22159-0500
	(703)-642-7330
	$75/year, may have discounts for NSS/SSI members

    Journal of the Astronautical Sciences and Space Times - publications of
	the American Astronautical Society. No details.

	AAS Business Office
	6352 Rolling Mill Place, Suite #102
	Springfield, VA 22152
	(703)-866-0020

    GPS World (semi-monthly) - reports on current and new uses of GPS, news
	and analysis of the system and policies affecting it, and technical
	and product issues shaping GPS applications.

	GPS World
	859 Willamette St.
	P.O. Box 10460
	Eugene, OR 97440-2460
	(503)-343-1200

	Free to qualified individuals; write for free sample copy.

    Innovation (Space Technology) -- Free. Published by the NASA Office of
	Advanced Concepts and Technology. A revised version of the NASA
	Office of Commercial Programs newsletter.

    Planetary Encounter - in-depth technical coverage of planetary missions,
	with diagrams, lists of experiments, interviews with people directly
	involved.
    World Spaceflight News - in-depth technical coverage of near-Earth
	spaceflight. Mostly covers the shuttle: payload manifests, activity
	schedules, and post-mission assessment reports for every mission.

	Box 98
	Sewell, NJ 08080
	$30/year US/Canada
	$45/year elsewhere

    Space (bi-monthly magazine)
	British aerospace trade journal. Very good. $75/year.

    Space Calendar (weekly newsletter)

    Space Daily/Space Fax Daily  (newsletter)
	Short (1 paragraph) news notes. Available online for a fee
	(unknown).

    Space Technology Investor/Commercial Space News -- irregular Internet
	column on aspects of commercial space business. Free. Also limited
	fax and paper edition.

	    P.O. Box 2452
	    Seal Beach, CA 90740-1452.

    All the following are published by:

	Phillips Business Information, Inc.
	7811 Montrose Road
	Potomac, MC 20854

	Aerospace Financial News - $595/year.
	Defense Daily - Very good coverage of space and defense issues.
	    $1395/year.
	Space Business News (bi-weekly) - Very good overview of space
	    business activities. $497/year.
	Space Exploration Technology (bi-weekly) - $495/year.
	Space Station News (bi-weekly) - $497/year.

    UNDOCUMENTED GROUPS

	Anyone who would care to write up descriptions of the following
	groups (or others not mentioned) for inclusion in the answer is
	encouraged to do so.

	AAS - American Astronautical Society
	Other groups not mentioned above

I have a routine that changes the color (RGB) attributes on my
VGA adapter, but it doesn't work in the mode that I need.  
Specifically 68 hex.  An obscure mode, of course, but I need to
change the zillions of colors to 64 shade greyscale, but I do
not have the correct memory address for the pointer I need.

PLEASE, someone, I need the starting address, or maybe somewhere 
I can find it.  Thank you.

Hi again,

Many thanks to all the people who responded to my request for a MS-
Windows screen grabber.  It proves to me AGAIN that the net is a 
wonderful thing.  :-)

So, in summary:

There are two choices:

1)	Various screen grabber packages (Corel Draw has one, there are
a couple on simtel and cica).

2)	Use the built-in PrintScreen and Alt-PrintScreen functionality
to paste the screen (or window) to the clipboard.  Then paste the 
clipboard to your application.  Cool!

Again, thanks for the info...

Grant (the MS-Windows newbie -- Unix and X are my bag ;-)

: >over where it places its temp files: it just places them in its
: >"current directory".

: I have to beg to differ on this point, as the batch file I use
: to launch cview cd's to the dir where cview resides and then
: invokes it.  every time I crash cview, the 0-byte temp file
: is found in the root dir of the drive cview is on.

I posted this as well before the cview "expert".  Apparently, he thought he
knew better.

That's right, and this is pretty impossible, right?  It would be ideal if
we could believe for a while, just to try out religion, and only then
determine which course of thought suits us best.  But again, this is not
possible.  Not that religion warrants belief, but the belief carries with
it some psychological benefits.  There are also some psychological
burdens, too.

Well, if there were some psychological or other benefits gained from racism,
they could only be fully understood or judged by persons actually "believing"
in racism.  Of course, the parallel happens to be a poor one, but you
originated it.

Some rendering programs require that all surface normals point in the same
direction.  (ie: On a closed cube, all normals point outwards).  You can use
the points on the faces to determine the direction of the normal, by making
sure that all points are either in clockwise or counter-clockwise order.

How do you go about orienting all normals in the same direction, given a 
set of points, edges and faces?   Say that you had a cube with all faces that 
have their normals facing outwards, except for one face.  What's the
best way to realize that face is "flipped", and should have it's points
re-ordered?   I thought I had a good way of telling this, but then realized
that the algorithm I had would only tell you if you had points in clockwise
order for a 2d polygon.  I'd like something for 3d data.

Any hints, tips, references would be appreciated.

Steve

[lotsa stuff taken out]

Bottom line: due process was not served.  No peaceful attempt to serve
a warrant occurred.

Think on that.

Yes.  I cannot remeber which works I read about this in, as it was many 
years ago.  This ritual was called The Tarobaullum I believe, (The 
spelling may be off).

Pope Charles

I'm not sure if this is free or shareware, but you can try to look to wsmrsimtel20.army.mil,
directory PD1:<MSDOS.DESKPUB>  file OCR104.ZIP .
From the file SIMIBM.LST :
OCR104.ZIP    B   93310  910424  Optical character recognition for scanners.

I'm not sure if you got the information you were looking for, so I'll
post it anyway for the general public.  To load an image on your root
window add this line to the end of your .xsession file:

 xloadimage -onroot -fullscreen <gif_file_name> &

This is assuming of course you have the xloadimage client, and as
for the switches, I think they pretty much explain what is going on.
If you leave out the <&>, the terminal locks till you kill it.
(You already knew that though...)

Whatabout, Schools, Universities, Rich Individuals (around 250 people 
in the UK have more than 10 million dollars each). I reecieved mail
from people who claimed they might get a person into space for $500
per pound. Send a skinny person into space and split the rest of the money
among the ground crew!
Agreed. I volunteer for any UK attempts. But one clause: No launch methods
which are clearly dangerous to the environment (ours or someone else's). No
usage of materials from areas of planetary importance.

Yes: We should *do* this rather than talk about it. Lobby people!
The major problem with the space programmes is all talk/paperwork and
no action!

Not necessarily, especially if the rapist is known as such.  For instance,
if you intentionally stick your finger into a loaded mousetrap and get
snapped, whose fault is it?

Unfortunately your phrasing is ambiguous.  Re-writing more carefully, we have
(at least) two possibilities.  The first:

Things called "Mercedes" are cars
That girl is called "Mercedes"
Therefore that girl is a car

That is entirely valid as a piece of logical deduction.  It is not sound,
because the first statement is false.  Similarly, I would hold that Jim's
example is valid but not sound.

Another possible interpretation of what you wrote is:

There exists at least one car called "Mercedes"

-- which isn't valid.

Archive-name: graphics/resources-list/part3

Computer Graphics Resource Listing : WEEKLY POSTING [ PART 3/3 ]

11. Scene generators/geographical data/Maps/Data files
======================================================

DEMs (Digital Elevation Models)
-------------------------------
  DEMs (Digital Elevation Models) as well as other cartographic data
  [huge] is available from spectrum.xerox.com [192.70.225.78], /pub/map.

  Contact:
  Lee Moore -- Webster Research Center, Xerox Corp. --
  Voice: +1 (716) 422 2496
  Arpa, Internet:  Moore.Wbst128@Xerox.Com
[ Check also on ncgia.ucsb.edu (128.111.254.105), /pub/dems -- nfotis ]

  Many of these files are also available on CD-ROM selled by USGS:
  "1:2,000,000 scale  Digital Line Graph (DLG) Data". Contains datas
  for all 50 states. Price is about $28, call to or visit in offices
  in Menlo Park, in Reston, Virginia (800-USA-MAPS).

  The Data User Services Division of the Bureau of the Census also has
  data on CD-ROM (TSO standard format) that is derived from USGS
  1:100,000 map data. Call (301) 763-4100 for more info or they have
  a BBS at (301) 763-1568.

[ From Dr.Dobbs #198 March 1993: ]

      "The U.S. Defense Mapping Agency, in cooperation with their counterpart
agencies in CANADA, the U.K., and Australia, have released the Digital Chart
of the World (DCW). This chart consists of over 1.5 gigabytes of reasonable
quality vector data distributed on four CD-ROMS. .... includes coastlines,
rivers, roads, railrays, airports,cities, towns, spot elevations, and depths,
and over 100,000 place names."

It is ISO9660 compatible and only $200.00 available from:

U.S. Geological Survey
P.O. Box 25286
Denver Federal Center
Denver, CO 80225

Digital Distribution Services
Energy, Mines, and Resources Canada
615 Booth Street
Ottawa, ON
K1A 0E9 Canada

Director General of Military Survey
(Survey 3)
Elmwood Avenue
Feltham, Middlesex
TW13 7AH United Kingdom

Director of Survey, Australian Army
Department of Defense
Campbell Park Offices (CP2-4-24)
Campbell ACT 2601 Australia

Fractal Landscape Generators

Public Domain:

  Many people have written fractal landscape generators. for example
  for the Mac some of these generators were written by
  pdbourke@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Paul D. Bourke).
  Many of the programs are available from the FTP sites and mail
  archive servers. Check with Archie.

Commercial:

  Vista Pro 3.0 for the Amiga from Virtual Reality Labs -- list price
  is about $100. Their address is:
	VRL
	2341 Ganador court
	San Luis Obispo,
	CA 93401
	Telephone or FAX (805) 545-8515

  Scenery Animator (also for the Amiga) is of the same caliber with Vista Pro 2.
  Check with:
	Natural Graphics
	P.O. Box 1963
	Raklin, CA 95677
	Phone (916) 624-1436

  Don't forget to ask about companion programs and data disks/tapes.

  Vista Pro 3 has been ported to the PCs.

CIA World Map II
[  NOTE: this database is quite out of date, and not topologically structured.
  If you need a standard for world cartographic data, wait for the
  Digital Chart of the World. This 1:1M database has been produced from
  the Defense Mapping Agency's ONCs and will be available, together with
  searching and viewing software, on a number of CD-ROMs later this summer. ]

  Check into HANAUMA.STANFORD.EDU and UCSD.EDU (see ftp list above)
  The CIA database consists of coastlines, rivers and political boundaries
  in the form of line strokes. Also on hanauma.stanford.edu is a 720x360
  array of elevation data, containing one ieee floating point number for
  every half degree longitude and latitude.
 
  A program for decoding the database, mfil, can be found on the machine
  pi1.arc.umn.edu (137.66.130.11).
  There's another program, which reads a compressed CIA Data Bank file and
  builds a PHIGS hierachical structure. It uses a PHIGS extension known as
  polyline sets for performance, but you can use regular polylines. Ask
  Joe Stewart <joes@lpi.liant.com>.
  The raw data at Stanford require the vplot package to be able to view it.
  (was posted in comp.sources.unix). To be more exact, you'll have to
  compile just the libvplot routines, not the whole package.

NCAR data
---------
  NCAR (National Center for Atmospheric Research) has many types of
  terrain  data, ranging from elevation datasets at
  various resolutions, to information about soil types, vegetation, etc.
  This data is not free -- they charge from $40 to $90 or more, depending
  on the data volume and media (exabyte tape, 3480 cartridge, 9-track tape,
  IBM PC floppy, and FTP transfer are all available).  Their data archive
  is mostly research oriented, not hobbyist oriented.  For more information,
  email to ilana@ncar.ucar.edu.

UNC data tapes with voxel data
  There are 2 "public domain" tapes with data for the comparison and
  testing of various volume rendering algorithms (mainly MRI and CT
  scans). These tapes are distributed by the SoftLab of UNC @ Chapel Hill.
  (softlab@cs.unc.edu)

  The data sets (volume I and II) are also available via anonymous FTP from
  omicron.cs.unc.edu [128.109.136.159] in pub/softlab/CHVRTD

NASA
----
  Many US agencies such as NASA publish CD-ROMs with many altimetry data
  from various space missions, eg. Viking for Mars, Magellan for Venus,
  etc. Especially for NASA, I would suggest to call the following
  address for more info:

     National Space Science Date Center
     Goddard Space Flight Center
     Greenbelt, Maryland 20771
     Telephone: (301) 286-6695
     Email address:  request@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov

  The data catalog (*not* the data itself) is available online.
  Internet users can telnet to nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.10.4) and log
  in as 'NODIS' (no password).

  You can also dial in at (301)-286-9000 (300, 1200, or 2400 baud, 8 bits,
  no parity, one stop). At the "Enter Number:" prompt, enter MD and
  carriage return. When the system responds "Call Complete," enter a few
  more carriage returns to get the "Username:" and log in as 'NODIS' (no
  password).

  NSSDCA is also an anonymous FTP site, but no comprehensive list of
  what's there is available at present.

Earth Sciences Data

  There's a listing of anonymous FTP sites for earth science data, including
  imagery. This listing is called "Earth Sciences Resources on Internet",
  and you can get it via anonymous FTP from csn.org [128.138.213.21]
  in the directory COGS under the name "internet.resources.earth.sci"

  Some sites include:
  aurelie.soest.hawaii.edu [128.171.151.121]: pub/avhrr/images - AVHRR images
  ames.arc.nasa.gov [128.102.18.3]: pub/SPACE/CDROM  - images from
        Magellan and Viking missions etc.
        pub/SPACE/Index contains a listing of files available in the whole
        archive (the index is about 200K by itself). There's also an
        e-mail server for the people without Internet access: send a letter
        to archive-server@ames.arc.nasa.gov (or ames!archive-server). In the
        subject of your letter (or in the body), use commands like:

        send SPACE Index
        send SPACE SHUTTLE/ss01.23.91

        (Capitalization is important! Only text files are handled by the
        email server at present)

  vab02.larc.nasa.gov [128.155.23.47]: pub/gifs/misc/landsat -
	Landsat photos in GIF and JPEG format
[ It was shut down - nfotis; anyone has a copy of this archive?? ]

Others
------
  Daily values of river discharge, streamflow, and daily weather data is
  available from EarthInfo, 5541 Central Ave., Boulder CO  80301.  These
  disks are expensive, around $500, but there are quantity discounts.
  (303) 938-1788.

  Check vmd.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.98], the wx directory carries
  data regarding surface analysis, weather radar, and sat view pics in
  GIF format (updated hourly)

  pioneer.unm.edu [129.24.9.217] is the Space and Planetary Image Facility
  (located on the University of New Mexico campus) FTP server. It provides
  Anonymous FTP access to >150 CD-ROMS  with data/images.

  A disk with earthquake data, topography, gravity, geopolitical info
  is available from NGDC (National Geophysical Data Center), 325 Broadway,
  Boulder, CO  80303.  (303) 497-6958.

  EOSAT (at least in the US) now sells Landsat MSS data older than two years
  old for $200 per scene, and they have been talking about a similar deal
  for Landsat TM data. The MSS data are 4 bands, 80 meter resolution.

  Check out anonymous FTP to ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu in
  UNIX/PolyView/alpha-shape for a tool that creates convex hulls
  alpha-shapes (a generalization of the convex hull) from 3D point sets.

  The GRIPS II (Gov. Raster Image Processing Software) CD-ROM
  is available from CD-ROM Inc. at 1-800-821-5245 for $49.
  Code for viewing ADRG (Arc Digitised Raster Graphics) files is
  available on the GRIPS II CD-ROM. The U.S. Army Engineer 
  Topographic Labs (Juan Perez) code is also available via FTP
  ( adrg.zip archive in  spectrum.xerox.com )

NRCC range data
  Rioux M., Cournoyer L. "The NRCC Three-Dimensional Image Data Files",
  Tech. Report, CNRC 29077, National Research Council Canada,
  Ottawa, Canada, 1988
  [ From what I understand, these data are from a laser range finder,
   and you can a copy for research purposes ]

12. 3D scanners - Digitized 3D Data
===================================

a. Cyberware Labs, Monterey, CA, manufactures a 3D color laser digitizer
  which can be used to model parts of, or a complete, human body.
  They run a service bureau also, so they can digitize models for you.

  Address:
    Cyberware Labs, Inc
    8 Harris Ct, Suite 3D
    Monterey, CA 93940
  Phone: (408)373-1441, Fax: (408)373-3582

b. Polhemus makes a 6D input device (actually a couple of models)
  that senses position (3D) and *orientation* (+3D) based on electromagnetic
  field interference.  This equipment is also incorporated in the
  VPL Dataglove.
  This hardware is also called ISOTRACK, from Keiser Aerospace.

Ascension Technology makes a similar 3D input device.
There is a company, Applied Sciences(?), that makes a 3D input
device (position only) based on speed of sound triangulation.

c. A company that specializes in digitizing is Viewpoint. You can ask
   for Viewpoint's _free_ 100 page catalog full of ready to 
   ship datasets from categories such as cars, anatomy, aircraft,sports,
   boats, trains, animals and others. Though these objects are
   quite expensive, the cataloge is nevertheless of interest for it
   has pictures of all the available objects in wireframe , polygon mesh.

  Contact:

  Viewpoint,
  870 West Center,
  Orem, Utah 84057
  ph# 801-224-2222
  fax# 801-224-2272
  1-800-DATASET

------

  Some addresses for companies that make digitizers:

  Ascension Technology
  Bird, Flock of Birds, Big Bird: 6d trackers
  P.O. Box 527,
  Burlington, VT 05402
  Phone: (802) 655-7879, Fax: (802) 655-5904

  Polhemus Incorporated
  Digitizer: 6d trackers
  P.O. Box 560, Hercules Dr.
  Colchester, Vt. 05446
  Tel: (802) 655-3159

  Logitech Inc.
  Red Baron, ultrasonic 6D mouse
  6506 Kaiser Dr.
  Freemont, CA 94555
  Tel: (415) 795-8500w

  Shooting Star Technology
  Mechanical Headtracker
  1921 Holdom Ave.
  Burnaby, B.C. Canada V5B 3W4
  Tel: (604) 298-8574
  Fax: (604) 298-8580

  Spaceball Technologies, Inc.
  Spaceball: 6d stationary input device
  600 Suffolk Street
  Lowell, MA, 01854
  Tel: (508) 970-0330 
  Fax: (508) 970-0199
  Tel in Mountain View: (415) 966-8123 

  Transfinite Systems 
  Gold Brick: PowerGlove for Macintosh
  P.O. Box N
  MIT Branch Post Office
  Cambridge, MA 02139-0903
  Tel: (617) 969-9570
  email: D2002@AppleLink.Apple.com

  VPL Research, Inc.
  EyePhone: head-mounted display
  DataGlove: glove/hand input device
  VPL Research Inc.
  950 Tower Lane
  14th Floor
  Foster City, CA 94404
  Tel: (415) 312-0200
  Fax: (415) 312-9356

  SimGraphics Engineering
  Flying Mouse: 6d input device
  1137 Huntington Rd. Suite A-1
  South Pasadena, CA 91030-4563
  (213) 255-0900

========================================================================

13. Background imagery/textures/datafiles
=========================================

 First, check in the FTP places that are mentioned in the FAQ or in the FTP
list above.

24-bit scanning:
  Get a good 24-bit scanner, like Epson's. Suggested is an SCSI port for
  speed. Eric Haines had a suggestion in RT News, Volume 4, #3 :
  scan textures for wallpapers and floor coverings, etc. from doll
  house supplies.
  So you have a rather cheap way to scan patterns that don't have
  scaling troubles associated with real materials and scanning area.

Books with textures:
--------------------
  Find some houses/books/magazines that carry photographic material.
  Educorp, 1-619-536-9999, sells CD-ROMS with various imagery - also
  a wide variety of stock art is available.
  Stock art from big-name stock art houses, such as Comstock,
  UNIPHOTO, and Metro Image Base, is available.

  In Italy, there's a company called Belvedere that makes such books
  for the purpose of clipping their pages for inclusion in your
  graphics work. Their address is:
	Edition Belvedere Co. Ltd.,
	00196 Rome Italy,
	Piazzale Flaminio, 19
	Tel. (06) 360-44-88, Fax (06)  360-29-60

Texture Libraries:
------------------
a. Mannikin Sceptre Graphics announced TexTiles, a set of 256x256 24-bit
   textures. Initial shipments in 24-bit IFF (for Amigas), soon in 24-bit
   TIFF format. Algorithmically built for tiled surfaces. SRP is $40 / volume
   (each volume = 40 images @ 10 disks). Demo disks for $5 are available.

   Contact:
   Mannikin Sceptre Graphics
   1600 Indiana Ave.
   Winter Park, FL 32789
   Phone: (407) 384-9484
   FAX: (407) 647-7242

b. ESSENCE is a library of 65 (sixty-five) new algoritmic textures for Imagine
   by Impulse, Inc. These textures are FULLY compatible with the floating point
   versions of Imagine 2.0, Imagine 1.1, and even Turbo Silver.
   Written by Steve Worley.

   For more info contact:
   Essence Info
   Apex Software Publishing
   405 El Camino Real Suite 121
   Menlo Park CA 94025 USA

[ What about Texture City ?? ]

14. Introduction to rendering algorithms
========================================

a. Ray-Tracing:

  I assume you have a general understanding of Computer Graphics. No? Then read
  some of the books that the FAQ contains. For Ray-Tracing, I would
  suggest:
   An Introduction to Ray Tracing, Andrew Glassner (ed.), Academic Press
     1989, ISBN 0-12-286160-4
  Note that I have not read the book, but I feel that you can't be wrong
  using his book. An errata list was posted in comp.graphics by Eric Haines
  (erich@eye.com)

There's a more concise reference also:

  Roman Kuchkuda , UNC @ Chapel Hill: "An Introduction to Ray Tracing", in
  "Theoretical Foundations for Computer Graphics and CAD", ed. R.A.E.Earnshaw,
  NATO AS, Vol. F-40., pp. 1039-1060. Printed by Springer-Verlag, 1988.

It contains code for a small, but fundamentally complete ray-tracer.

b. Z-buffer (depth-buffer)
--------------------------

A good reference is:

        _Procedural Elements for Computer Graphics_, David F. Rogers,
        McGraw-Hill, New York, 1985, pages 265-272 and 280-284.

c. Others:
???
[ More info is needed -- nfotis ]

15. Where can I find the geometric data for the:
================================================

a. Teapot ?

"Displays on Display" column of IEEE CG&A Jan '87 has the whole
story about origin of the Martin Newell's teapot. The article also has
the bezier patch model and a Pascal program to display the wireframe
model of the teapot.

IEEE CG&A Sep '87 in Jim Blinn's column "Jim Blinn's Corner" describes
an another way to model the teapot; Bezier curves with rotations for
example are used.

The OFF and SPD packages have these objects, so you're advised to get
them to avoid typing the data yourself.  The OFF data is triangles at
a specific resolution (around 8x8[x4 triangles] meshing per patch).
The SPD package provides the spline patch descriptions and performs a
tessellation at any specified resolution.

b. Space Shuttle ?

Tolis Lerios <tolis@nova.stanford.edu> has built a list of Space Shuttle
datafiles. Here's a summary (From his sci.space list):

model1:
A modified version of the newsgroup model (model2)

406 vertices (296 useful, i.e. referred to in the polygon descriptions.)
389 polygons (233 3-vertex, 146 4-vertex, 7 5-vertex, 3 6-vertex).
Payload doors non-existent.
Units: unknown.

Simon Marshall (S.Marshall@sequent.cc.hull.ac.uk) has a copy. He
said there is no proprietary information associated with it.

model2:
The newsgroup model, in OFF format. You can find it in

gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au , file pub/off/objects/shuttle.geo
hanauma.stanford.edu ,  /pub/graphics/Comp.graphics/objects/shuttle.data

model3:
The triangles' model.

This model is stored in several files, each defining portions of the model.

Greg Henderson (henders@infonode.ingr.com) has a copy.  He did
not mention any restriction on the model's distribution.

model4:
The NASA model.

The file starts off with a header line containing three real numbers,
defining the offsets used by Lockheed in their simulations:

<x offset> <y offset> <z offset>

From then on, the file consists of a sequence of polygon descriptions

3473 vertices.
2748 polygons (407 3-vertex, 2268 4-vertex, 33 5-vertex, 14 6-vertex,
 10 7-vertex, 8 8-vertex, 8 12-vertex, 2 13-vertex, 2 15-vertex,
 17 16-vertex, 2 17-vertex, 2 18-vertex, 3 19-vertex, 8 24-vertex).
Payload doors closed.
Units: inches.

Jon Berndt (jon@l14h11.jsc.nasa.gov) seems to be responsible for the model
Proprietary info: unknown

model5:
The old shuttle model.

The file consists of a sequence of polygon descriptions.

104 vertices.
452 polygons (11 3-vertex, 41 4-vertex).
Payload doors open.
Units: meters.

We have been using this model at STAR Labs, Stanford University, for
some years now. Contact me (tolis@nova.stanford.edu) or my supervisor
Scott Williams (scott@star5.stanford.edu) if you want a copy.

16. Image annotation software

a. Touchup runs in Sunview and is pretty good.  It reads in
  rasterfiles, but even if your image isn't normally stored
  in rasterfile format you could use screendump to make it a
  rasterfile.

b. Idraw (part of Stanford's InterViews distribution) can handle some
  image formats in addition to being a MacDraw like tool.  I'm not
  sure exactly what they are.
  You can ftp the idraw's binary from interviews.stanford.edu.

c. Tgif is another MacDraw like tool that can handle X11 bitmap (xbm)
  and X11 pixmap (xpm) formats.  If the image you have is in formats
  other than xbm or xpm, you can get the pbmplus toolkit to convert
  things like gif or even some Macintosh formats to xpm.
  Tgif's sources are available in the pub directory on cs.ucla.edu
  (Version 2.12 of tgif at patchlevel 7 plus patch8 and patch9)

d. Use the editimage facility of KHOROS (see below).
  This is just one utility in the overall system- you can essentially do all
  your image processing and macdraw-type graphics using this package.

e. You might be able to get by with PBMPlus.  pbmtext gives you text output
  bitmaps which can be overlaid on top of your image.

f. 'ice' requires Sun hardware running OpenWindows 3.It's a PostScript-based
  graphical editor,and it's available for anonymous ftp from Internet host
  eo.soest.hawaii.edu (128.171.151.12). Requires Sun C++ 2.0 and
  two other locally developed packages, the LXT library (an Xlib-based
  toolkit) and a small C++ class library. All files (pub/ice.tar.Z,
  pub/lxt.tar.Z and pub/ldgoc++.tar.Z) are available in compressed
  tar format. pub/ice.tar.Z contains a README that gives installation
  instructions, as well as an extensive man page (ice.1).
  A statically-linked compressed executable pub/ice-sun4.Z for
  SPARC systems is also available for ftp.

  All software is the property of Columbia University and may not
  be redistributed without permission.

  ice means Image Composition Environment and it's an imaging tool that
  allows raster images to be combined with a wide variety of
  PostScript annotations in WYSIWYG fashion via X11 imaging
  routines and NeWS PostScript rasterizing.

g. Use ImageMagick to annotate an image from your X server.  Pick the 
  position of your text with the cursor and choose your font and pen 
  color from a pull-down menu.  ImageMagick can read and write many
  of the more popular image formats.  ImageMagick is available as
  export.lcs.mit.edu: contrib/ImageMagick.tar.Z or at your nearest
  X11 archive.

17. Scientific visualization stuff
==================================

X Data Slice (xds)
  Bundled with the X11 distribution from MIT,
  in the contrib directory. Available at ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.20.50]
  (either as a source or binaries for various platforms).

National Center for Supercomputing Applications (NCSA) Tool Suite

Platforms: Unix Workstations (DEC, IBM, SGI, Sun)
           Apple MacIntosh
           Cray supercomputers

Availability: Now available.  Source code in the public domain.
              FTP from ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu.

Contact: National Center for Supercomputing Applications
         Computing Applications Building
         605 E. Springfield Ave.
         Champaign, IL 61820

Cost: Free (zero dollars).

The suite includes tools for 2D image and 3D scene analysis and visualization.
The code is actively maintained and updated.

Spyglass
--------
  They sell commercial versions of the NCSA tools. Examples are:

	Spyglass Dicer (3D volumetric data analysis package)
		Platform: Mac

	Spyglass Transform (2D data analysis package)
		Platforms: Mac, SGI, Sun, DEC, HP, IBM

  Contact:
  Spyglass, Inc.
  P.O. Box 6388
  Champaign, IL  61826
  (217) 355-6000

KHOROS 1.0 Patch 5
  Available via anonymous ftp at pprg.eece.unm.edu (129.24.24.10).
  cd to /pub/khoros to see what is available. It is HUGE (> 100 MB), but good.
  Needs Unix and X11R4. Freely copied (NOT PD), complete with sources
  and docs. Very extensive and at its heart is visual programming.
  Khoros components include a visual programming language, code
  generators for extending the visual language and adding new application
  packages to the system, an interactive user interface editor, an
  interactive image display package, an extensive library of image and
  signal processing routines, and 2D/3D plotting packages.

  See comp.soft-sys.khoros on Usenet and the relative FAQ for more info....

  Contact:

  The Khoros Group
  Room 110 EECE Dept.
  University of New Mexico
  Albuquerque, NM 87131

  Email: khoros-request@chama.eece.unm.edu

MacPhase
--------
  Analysis & Visualization Application for the Macintosh.
  Operates on 1D and 2D data arrays. Import/Export several different file
  formats.  Several different plotting options such as gray scale,
  color raster, 3D Wire frame, 3D surface, contour, vector, line, and
  combinations.  FFTs, filtering, and other math functions, color look up
  editor, array calculator, etc. Shareware, available via anonymous ftp from
  sumex-aim.stanford.edu in the info-mac/app directory.
  For other information contact Doug Norton (e-mail: 74017.461@@compuserve.com)

IRIS Explorer
  It's an application creation system developed by Silicon
  Graphics that provides visualisation and analysis functionality for
  computational scientists, engineers and other scientists. The Explorer
  GUI allows users to build custom applications without having to write
  any, or a minimal amount of, traditonal code. Also, existing code can
  be easily integrated into the Explorer environment. Explorer currently
  is available now on SGI and Cray machines, but will become available on
  other platforms in time. [ Bundled with every new SGI machine, as far as
  I know]

  See comp.graphics.explorer or comp.sys.sgi for discussion of the package.

  There are also two FTP servers for related stuff, modules etc.:

  ftp.epcc.ed.ac.uk [129.215.56.29]
  swedishchef.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.54.33] - mirror of the UK site

apE
---
  Back in the 'old good days', you could get apE for nearly free.
  Now has gone commercial and the following vendor supplies it:

  TaraVisual Corporation
  929 Harrison Avenue
  Columbus, Ohio 43215
  Tel: 1-800-458-8731 and (614) 291-2912
  Fax: (614) 291-2867

        Cost:
  $895 (plus tax); runtime version with a site-license for a single user
  (at a time), no limit on the number of machines in a cluster.
  $895 includes support/maintenance and upgrades.
  Source code more.  Additional user licenses $360.

  The name of the package has become apE III (TM).
  Khoros is very similar to apE on philosophy, as are AVS and Explorer.

AVS
---
See also:
        comp.graphics.avs

Platforms: CONVEX, CRAY, DEC, Evans & Sutherland, HP, IBM, Kubota,
Set Technologies, SGI, Stardent, SUN, Wavetracer
Availability: AVS4 available on all the above:
  For all UNIX workstations.

Contact:
  Advanced Visual Systems Inc.
  300 Fifth Ave.
  Waltham, MA    02154

  (617)-890-4300   Telephone
  (617)-890-8287   Fax
  avs@avs.com      Email

  Advanced Visual Systems Inc. for: CRAY, HP, IBM, SGI, Stardent, SUN
  CONVEX for CONVEX
  Advanced Visual Systems Inc. or CRAY for CRAY
  DEC for DEC
  Evans & Sutherland for Evans & Sutherland
  Advanced Visual Systems Inc. or IBM for IBM
  Kubota Pacific Inc. for Kubota
  Set Technologies for Set Technologies
  Wavetracer for Wavetracer

  FTP Site: for modules, data sets, other info:
	avs.ncsc.org (128.109.178.23)

WIT
---
  In a nutshell it's a package of the same genre as AVS,Explorer,etc.
  It seems more a image processing system than a generic SciVi system (IMHO)
  Major elements are:

  - a visual programming language, which automatically exploits the inherent
        parallelism
  - a code generator which converts the graph to a standalone program

  Iconified libraries present a rich set of point, filter, io, transform,
  morphological, segmentation, and measurement operations.
  A flow library allows graphs to employ broadcast, merge,
  synchronization, conditional, and sequencing control strategies.

  WIT delivers an object-oriented, distributed, visual programming
  environment which allows users to rapidly design solutions to their
  imaging problems. Users can consolidate both software and hardware
  developments within a complete CAD-like workspace by adding their
  own operators (C functions), objects (data structures), and servers
  (specialized hardware). WIT runs on Sun, HP9000/7xx, SGI and supports
  Datacube MV-20/200 hardware allowing you to run your graphs in real-time.

  For a free WIT demo disk, call, FAX, or e-mail (poon@ee.ubc.ca)
  us stating your complete name, address, voice, FAX, e-mail info.
  and desired platform.

  Pricing: WIT for Sparc, one yr. free upgrades, 30 days
  technical support....................$5000 US

  Academic institutions: discounts available

  Contact:
  Logical Vision Ltd.
  Suite 108-3700 Gilmore Way
  Burnaby, B.C., CANADA
  V5G 4M1
  Tel: 604-435-2587
  Fax: 604-435-8840

  Terry Arden <poon@ee.ubc.ca>

VIS-5D
------
  A system for visually exploring the output of 5-D gridded data sets
  such as those made by weather models. Platforms:

    SGI IRIS with VGX, GTX, TG, or G graphics,
    SGI Crimson or Indigo (R4000, Elan graphics suggested), IRIX 4.0.x
    IBM RS/6000 with GL graphics, AIX version 3 or later;
    Stardent GS-1000 and GS-2000 (with TrueColor display)

  In any case, 32 (or more) MB of RAM are suggested.

  You can get it freely (thanks to NASA support) via anonymous ftp:

 ftp iris.ssec.wisc.edu  (or ftp 144.92.108.63), then

  ftp> cd pub/vis5d
  ftp> ascii
  ftp> get README
  ftp> bye

 NOTE: You can find the package also on wuarchive.wustl.edu in the
 graphics/graphics/packages directory.

  Read section 2 of the README file for full instructions
  on how to get and install VIS-5D.

  Contact:
  Bill Hibbard (whibbard@vms.macc.wisc.edu)
  Brian Paul (bpaul@vms.macc.wisc.edu)

DATAexplorer (IBM)
  Platforms : IBM Risc System 6000, IBM POWER Visualization Server
        (SIMD mesh 32 i860s, 40 MHz)

  Working on (announced) : SGI, HP, Sun

  Contact:
  Your local IBM Rep.  For a trial package ask your rep to contact :

  David Kilgore
  Data Explorer Product Marketing
  YKTVMH(KILCORE), (708) 981-4510

Wavefront
---------
  Data Visualizer, Personal Visualizer, Advanced Visualizer.
  Platforms: SGI, SUN, IBM RS6000, HP, DEC

  Availability:
    Available on all the above platforms from Wavefront
    Technologies.  Educational programs and site licenses are
    available.

  Contacts:
    Mike Wilson (mike@wti.com)

    Wavefront Technologies, Inc.
    530 East Montecito Street
    Santa Barbara, CA 93103
    805-962-8117
    FAX: 805-963-0410

    Wavefront Europe
    Guldenspoorstraat 21-23
    B-9000 Gent, Belgium
    32-91-25-45-55
    FAX: 32-91-23-44-56

    Wavefront Technologies Japan
    17F Shinjuku-sumitomo Bldg
    2-6-1  Nishi-shinjuku, Shunjuku-Ku
    Tokyo 168 Japan
    81-3-3342-7330
   FAX 81-3-3342-7353

PLOT3D and FAST from NASA Ames
  These packages are distributed from COSMIC at least
  (for FAST ask Pat Elson <pelson@nas.nasa.gov> for
  distribution information). In general, these codes are for US
  citizens only :-(

XGRAPH
------
  On the contrib tape of X11R5. Its specialty is display of up
  to 64 data sets (2D).

NCAR
----
  National Center for Atmospheric Research. One of the original graphics
  packages. Runs on Sun, RS6000, SGI, VAX, Cray Y-MP, DecStations, and more.

  Contact:
	Graphics Information
	NCAR Scientific Computing Division
	P.O. Box 3000
	Boulder, CO   80307-3000
	(303)-497-1201
	scdinfo@ncar.ucar.edu

  Cost:
	.edu
	$750 Unlimited users

	.gov
	$750 1 user
	$1500 5 users
	$3000 25 users

	.com users multiply .gov * 2.0

IDL
---
  An environment for scientific computing and visualization.
  Based on an array oriented language, IDL includes 2D and 3D
  graphics, matrix manupulation, signal and image processing,
  basic statistics, gridding, mapping, and a widget based system
  for building GUI for IDL applications (Open Look, Motif, or
  MS-Windows).

  Environments:  DEC (VMS and Ultrix), HP, IBM RS6000, SGI, Sun,
          Microsoft Windows.  (Mac version in progress)
  Cost:  $1500 to $3750, Educational and quantity discounts
          available.
  See also:   comp.lang.idl-pvwave (the IDL-PVWAVE bundle)
  Contact:    Research Systems Inc.
              777 29th Street, Suite 302
              Boulder, CO  80303
              Phone:  303-786-9900
              FAX:    303-786-9909
              E-mail: info@rsinc.com
  Demo available via FTP.  Call or E-mail for details.

IDL/SIPS
--------
  "A lot of people are using IDL with a package called SIPS. This was
  developed at the University of Colorado (Boulder) by some people working
  for Alex Goetz.  You might try contacting them if you already have IDL
  or would be willing to buy it.  It's a few thousand dollars (American) I
  expect for IDL and the other should be free.  Those are the general
  purpose packages I've heard of, besides what TerraMar has.
  SIPS _was_ written for AVIRIS imagery.  I'm not sure how general purpose
  it is.  You would have to contact Goetz or one of his people and ask.  I
  have another piece of software (PCW) that does PC and Walsh
  transformations with pseudocoloring and clustering and limited image
  modification (you can compute an image using selected components).  I've
  used it on 70 megabyte AVIRIS images without problems, but for the best
  speed you need an external DSP card.  It will work without it, but large
  images take quite a while (50-70 times as long) to process.  That's a
  freebie if you want it"

  "My  favorite is IDL (Interactive Data Language) from Research Systems,
  Inc.  IDL is in my opinion, much better and infinitely easier. Its
  programming language is very strong and easy -- very Pascal-like. It
  handles the number-crunching very well, also. Personally, I like doing
  the number-crunching with IDL on the VAX (or Mathematica, Igor, or even
  Excel on the Mac if it's not too hairy), then bringing it over to NIH
  Image for the imaging part. I have yet to encounter any situation which
  that combination couldn't handle, and the speed and ease of use
  (compared to IRAF) was incredible. By the way, it's mostly astronomical
  image processing which I've been doing. This means image enhancement,
  cleaning up bad lines/pixels, and some other traditional image
  processing routines. Then, for example, taking a graph of intensity
  versus position along a line I choose with the mouse, then doing a curve
  fit to that line (which I might do like in KaleidaGraph.) "

[ For IDL call Research Systems , for PV-WAVE call Precision Visuals and
 for SIPS call University of Colorado @ Boulder . From what I can
 understand, you can get packaged programs from Research Systems, though
 -- nfotis ]

Visual3
-------
  contact Robert Haimes, MIT

FieldView
---------
 An interactive program designed to assist an engineer in
 investigating fluid dynamics data sets.          

 Platforms:  SGI, IBM, HP, SUN, X-terminals

 Availability:  Currently available on all of the above
       platforms.  Educational programs and volume 
       discounts are available.

 Contact:

 Intelligent Light 
 P.O. Box 65
 Fair Lawn, NJ 07410
 (201)794-7550
        
 Steve Kramer (kramer@ilight.com)

SciAn
------
  SciAn is primarily intended to do 3-D visualizations of data in an 
  interactive environment with the ability to generate animations using
  frame-accurate video recording devices.  A user manual, on-line help, and
  technical notes will help you use the program.

  Cost : 0 (Free), source code provided via ftp.
  Platforms : SGI 4D machines and IBM RS/6000 with the GL card + Z-buffer

  Where to find it:
  ftp.scri.fsu.edu [144.174.128.34] : /pub/SciAn
	A mirror is monu1.cc.monash.edu.au [130.194.1.101] : /pub/SciAn

SCRY
----
[ From the README : ]

      Scry is a distributed image handling system  that  pro-
 vides image transport and compression on local and wide area
 networks, image viewing on workstations, recording on  video
 equipment,  and  storage on disk.  The system can be distri-
 buted among workstations, between supercomputers and  works-
 tations,  and between supercomputers, workstations and video
 animation controllers.  The system is most commonly used  to
 produce  video based movie displays of images resulting from
 visualization of time dependent data, complex 3D data  sets,
 and  image  processing  operations.   Both  the  clients and
 servers run on a variety of systems that provide UNIX-like C
 run-time environments, and 4BSD sockets.
 
 The source is available for anonymous ftp:
 
 csam.lbl.gov [128.3.254.6] : pub/scry.tar.Z
 
 Contact:
 
 Bill Johnston, (wejohnston@lbl.gov, ...ucbvax!csam.lbl.gov!johnston)

       or

 David Robertson (dwrobertson@lbl.gov, ...ucbvax!csam.lbl.gov!davidr)
 
 Imaging Technologies Group
 MS 50B/2239
 Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory
 1 Cyclotron Road
 Berkeley, CA  94720

SVLIB / FVS
  SVLIB is an X-Windows widget set based on the OSF (Open Software 
  Foundation) Motif widget set. SVLIB widgets are macro-widgets 
  comprising lower level Motif widgets such as buttons, scrollbars, 
  menus, and drawing areas. It is designed to address the reusability 
  of 2D visualization routines and each widget in the library is an 
  encapsulation of a specific visualization technique such as colormap 
  manipulation, image display, and contour plotting. It is targetted
  to run on UNIX workstations supporting OSF/Motif. Currently, only 
  color monitors are supported. Since SVLIB is a collection of widgets 
  developed in the same spirit as the OSF/Motif user interface widget 
  set, it integrates seamlessly with the Motif widgets. Programmers 
  using SVLIB widgets see the same interface and design as other 
  Motif widgets.

  FVS is a visualization software for Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) 
  simulations.  FVS is designed to accept data generated from these
  simulations and apply various visualization techniques to present these
  data graphically. 
  FVS accepts three-dimensional multi-block data recorded in NCSA HDF format.

 iti.gov.sg [192.122.132.130] : /pub/svlib (Scientific Visualization)
      /pu/fvs; These directories contain demo binaries for Sun4/SGI

  Cost : US$200 for academic and US$300 for non-academic institutions.
  (For each of the above items). You're getting the source for the licence.

  Contact
  -------
  Miss Quek Lee Hian
  Member of Technical Staff
  Information Technology Institute
  National Computer Board
  NCB Building
  71, Sicence Park Drive
  Singapore 0511
  Republic of Singapore
  Tel : (65)7720435
  Fax : (65)7795966
  Email : leehian@iti.gov.sg

---------------------------------------------------------
GVLware Distribution:
        Bob  - An interactive volume renderer for the SGI
        Raz  - A disk based movie player for the SGI
        Icol - Motif color editor

The Army High Performance Computing Research Center (AHPCRC) has been
developing a set of tools to work with large time dependent 2D and 3D
data sets.  In the Graphics and Visualization Lab (GVL) we are using
these tools along side standard packages, such as SGI Explorer and the
Utah Raster Toolkit, to render 3D volumes and create digital movies.
A couple of the more general purpose programs have been bundled into a
package called "GVLware".

GVLware, currently consisting of Bob, Raz and Icol, is now available
via ftp.  The most interesting program is probably Bob, an interactive
volume renderer for the SGI.  Raz streams raster images from disk to
an SGI screen, enabling movies larger than memory to be played.  Icol
is a color map editor that works with Bob and Raz.  Source and
pre-built binaries for IRIX 4.0.5 are included.

To acquire GVLware, anonymous ftp to:
        machine - ftp.arc.umn.edu
        file    - /pub/gvl.tar.Z

To use GVLware:
        mkdir gvl ; cd gvl
        zcat gvl.tar.Z | tar xvf -
        more README

Some Bob features:
        Motif interface, SGI GL rendering
        Renders 64 cubed data set in 0.1 to 1.0 seconds on a VGX
        Alpha Compositing and Maximum Value rendering, in perspective
            (only Maximum Value rendering on Personal Iris)
        Data must be a "Brick of Bytes", on a regularly spaced grid
        Animation, subvolumes, subsampling, stereo

Some Raz features:
        Loads files to a raw disk partition, then streams to screen
            (requires an empty disk partition to be set aside)
        Script interface available for movie sequences
        Can stream from memory, like NCSA XImage
        
Some Icol features:
        Motif interface
        Easy to create interpolated color maps between key points
        RGB, HSV and YUV color spaces, multiple file formats
        Communicates changes automatically to Bob and Raz
        Has been tested on SGI, Sun, DEC and Cray systems

BTW:    Bob  == Brick of Bytes
        Icol == Interpolated Color
        Raz  == ? (just a name)

Please send any comments to
        gvlware@ahpcrc.umn.edu

This software collection is supported by the Army Research Office
contract number DAALO3-89-C-0038 with the University of Minnesota Army
High Performance Computing Research Center.

IAP
---
  Imaging Applications Platform is a commercial package for medical and
  scientific visualization. It does volume rendering, binary surface
  rendering, multiplanar reformating, image manipulation, cine sequencing,
  intermixes geometry and text with images and provides measurement and
  coordinate transform abilities.

  It can provide hardcopy on most medical film printers, image database
  functionality and interconnection to most medical (CT/MRI/etc) scanners.

  It is client/server based and provides an object oriented interface. It
  runs on most high performance workstations and takes full advantage of
  parallelism where it is available. It is robust, efficient and
  will be submitted for FDA approval for use in medical applications.

  Cost: $20K for OEM developer, $10K for educational developer
  and run times starting at $8900 and going down based on quantity.

  The developer packages include two days training for two people in Toronto.

  ISG Technologies
  6509 Airport Road
  Mississauga, Ontario,
  Canada, L4V-1S7

  (416) 672-2100
  e-mail: Rod Gilchrist <rod@isgtec.com>

18. Molecular visualization stuff
=================================

[ Based on a list from cristy@dupont.com < Cristy > , which asked for
 systems for displaying Molecular Dynamics, MD for short ]

Flex
----
  It is a public domain package written by Michael Pique, at The Scripps
  Research Institute, La Jolla, CA. Flex is stored as a compressed,
  tar'ed archive (about 3.4MB) at perutz.scripps.edu [137.131.152.27], in
  pub/flex. It displays molecular models and MD trajectories.

MacMolecule
  (for Macintosh). I searched with Archie, and the most
  promising place is sumex-aim.stanford.edu (info-mac/app, and
  info-mac/art/qt for a demo)

MD-DISPLAY
  Runs on SGI machines. Call Terry Lybrand (lybrand@milton.u.washington.edu).

XtalView
--------
  It is a crystallography package that does visualize molecules and much more.
  It uses the XView toolkit.
  Call Duncan McRee <dem@scripps.edu>

landman@hal.physics.wayne.edu:
-----------------------------
  I am writing my own visualization code right now.  I look at MD output
  (a specific format, easy to alter for the subroutine) on PC's.  My
  program has hooks into GKS.  If your friend has access to Phigs for X
  (PEX) and fortran bindings, I would be happy to share my evolving code
  (free of charge).  Right now it can display supercells of up to 65
  atoms (easy to change), and up to 100 time steps, drawing nearest
  neighbor bonds between 2 defining nn radii.  It works acceptably fast
  on a 10Mhz 286.

icsg0001@caesar.cs.montana.edu:
  I did a project on Molecular Visualization for my Master's Thesis, using
  UNIX/X11/Motif which generates a simple point and space-filling model.

KGNGRAF
-------

KGNGRAF is part of MOTECC-91. Look on malena.crs4.it (156.148.7.12),
in pub/motecc.

motecc.info.txt          Information about MOTECC-91 in plain ascii format.
motecc.info.troff        Information about MOTECC-91 in troff format.
motecc.form.troff        MOTECC-91 order form in troff format.
motecc.license.troff     MOTECC-91 license agreement in troff format.
motecc.info.ps           Information about MOTECC-91 in PostScript format.
motecc.form.ps           MOTECC-91 order form in PostScript format.
motecc.license.ps        MOTECC-91 license agreement in PostScript format.

ditolla@itnsg1.cineca.it:
  I'm working on molecular dynamic too.  A friend of mine and I have

  developed a program to display an MD run dynamically on Silicon
  Graphics.  We are working to improve it, but it doesn't work under X,
  we are using the graphi. lib. of the Silicon Gr. because they are much
  faster then X.  When we'll end it we'll post on the news info about
  where to get it with ftp. (Will be free software).

XBall V2.0
  Written by David Nedde. Call daven@maxine.wpi.edu.

XMol
----
  An X Window System program that uses OSF/Motif  for  the
  display and  analysis  of  molecular  model data.  Data from several
  common file formats can be read and written; current formats include:
  Alchemy, CHEMLAB-II, Gaussian, MOLSIM, MOPAC, PDB, and MSCI's XYZ
  format (which has been designed  for  simplicity  in  translating to
  and from other formats). XMol also allows for conversion between
  several of these formats.
  Xmol is available at ftp.msc.edu. Read pub/xmol/README for
  further details.

INSIGHT II
  from BIOSYM Technologies Inc.

SCARECROW
---------
  The program has been published in J. Molecular Graphics 10
  (1992) 33. The program can analyze and display CHARMM, DISCOVER, YASP
  and MUMOD trajectories. The program package contains also software for
  the generation of probe surfaces, proton affinity
  surfaces and molecular orbitals from an extended Huckel program.
  It works on Silicon Graphics machines.
  Contact Leif Laaksonen <Leif.Laaksonen@csc.fi or laaksone@csc.fi>

MULTI
-----
ns.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.8] : /pub - MULTI 3.0 (Multi-Process
		Molecular Modeling Suite)

+MindTool
+--------
+  It runs under SunView, and requires a fortran compiler and Sun's CGI
+  libraries. MindTool is a tool  provided  for  the  interactive  graphic
+  manipulation  of  molecules  and  atoms. Currently, up to 10,000
+  atoms may be input.
+  Available via anonymous FTP, at rani.chem.yale.edu, directory
+  /pub/MindTool ( Check with Archie for other  sites if that's too far )

[ I would also suggest looking at least in SGI's Applications Directory.
 It contains many more packages - nfotis ]

===========================================================================

19. GIS (Geographical Information Systems software)

GRASS
-----
  (Geographic Resource Analysis Support System) of the US Army
  Construction Engineering Research Lab (CERL). It is a popular geographic and
  remote sensing image processing package. Many may think of GRASS as a
  Geographic Information System rather than an Image Processing package,
  although it is reported to have significant image processing
  capabilities.

  Feature Descriptions

  I use GRASS  because it's public domain and can be obtained through the
  internet for free.  GRASS runs in Unix and is written in C.  The source
  code can be obtained through an anonymous ftp from the Office of Grass
  Integration.  You then compile the source code for your machine, using
  scripts provided with GRASS.  I would recommend GRASS for someone who
  already has a workstation and is on a limited budget. GRASS is not very
  user-friendly, compared to Macintosh software." A first review  of
  overview documentation indicates that it looks useful and has some pixel
  resampling functions not in other packages plus good general purpose
  image enhancement routines (fft). Kelly Maurice at Vexcel Corp. in
  Boulder, CO is a primary user of GRASS .  This gentleman has used the
  GRASS software and developed multi-spectral (238 bands ??) volumetric
  rendering, full color, on Suns and Stardents. It was a really effective
  interface.  Vexcel Corp. currently has a contract to map part of Venus
  and convert the Magellan radar data into contour maps. You can call them
  at (303) 444-0094 or email care of greg@vexcel.com 192.92.90.68

  If you are willing to run A/UX you could install GRASS   on a Macintosh
  which has significant image analysis and import capabilities for
  satellite data. GRASS  is public-domain, and can run on a high-end PC
  under UNIX. It is raster-based, has some image-processing capability,
  and can display vector data (but analysis must be done in the raster
  environment). I have used GRASS V.3 on a SUN workstation and found it
  easy to use. It is best, of course, for data that are well represented
  in raster (grid-cell) form.

  CERL's Office of Grass Integration (OGI)  maintains an ftp server:
  moon.cecer.army.mil (129.229.20.254).

  Mail regarding this site should be addressed to
  grass-ftp-admin@moon.cecer.army.mil.

  This location will be the new "canonical" source for GRASS software, as
  well as bug fixes, contributed sources, documentation, and other files.
  This FTP server also supports dynamic compression and uncompression and
  "tar" archiving of files.  A feature attraction of the server is John
  Parks' GRASS tutorial.  Because the manual is still in beta-test stage,
  John requests that people only acquire it if they are willing to review
  it and mail him comments/corrections. The OGI is not currently
  maintaining this document, so all correspondence about it should be
  directed to grassx@tang.uark.edu

  Support

  Listserv mailing lists:

  grassu-list@amber.cecer.army.mil (for GRASS users; application-level
  questions, support concerns, miscellaneous questions, etc) Send
  subscribe commands to grassu-request@amber.cecer.army.mil.

  grassp-list@amber.cecer.army.mil (for GRASS programmers; system-level
  questions and tips, tricks, and techniques of design and implementation
  of GRASS applications) Send subscribe commands to
  grassp-request@amber.cecer.army.mil.

  Both lists are maintained by the Office of Grass Integration (subset of
  the Army Corps of Engineers Construction Engineering Research Lab in
  Champaign, IL). The OGI is providing the lists as a service to the
  community; while OGI and CERL employees will participate in the lists,
  we can make no claim as to content or veracity of messages that pass
  through the list.  If you have questions, problems, or comments, send
  E-mail to lists-owner@amber.cecer.army.mil and a human will respond.

Microstation Imager
  Intergraph (based in Huntsville Alabama) sells a wide range of GIS
  software/hardware. Microstation is a base  graphics package that Imager
  sits on top of. Imager is basically an  image processing package with a
  heavy GIS/remote sensing flavor.

  Basic geometry manipulations: flip, mirror, rotate, generalized affine.
  Rectification: Affine, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th order models as well as a
  projective model (warp an image to a vector map or to another image).
  RGB to IHS and IHS to RGB conversion.  Principal component analysis.
  Classification: K-means and isodata.  Fourier Xforms: Forward, filtering
  and reverse.  Filters: High pass, low pass, edge enhancing, median,
  generic.  Complex Histogram/Contrast control.  Layer Controller: manages
  up to 64 images at a time -- user can extract single bands from a 3 band
  image or create color images by combining various individual bands, etc.

  The package is designed for a remote sensing application (it can handle
  VERY LARGE images) and there is all kinds of other software available
  for GIS applications.

  It runs on Intergraph Workstations (a Unix machine similar to a Sun)
  though there  were rumors (there are always rumors) that the software
  would be  ported to PC and possibly a Sun environment.

PCI
---
  A company called PCI, Inc., out of Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada, makes
  an array of software utilities for processing, manipulation, and use of
  remote sensing data in eight or ten different "industry standard"
  formats: LGSOWG, BSQ, LANDSAT, and a couple of others whose titles I
  forget.  The software is available in versions for MS-DOS, Unix
  workstations (among them HP, Sun, and IBM), and VMS, and quite possibly
  other platforms by now.  I use the VMS version.

  The "PCI software" consists of several classes/groups/packages of
  utilities, grouped by function but all operating on a common "PCI
  database" disk file.  The "Tape I/O" package is a set of utility
  programs which read from the various remote-sensing industry tape
  formats INTO, or write those formats out FROM, the "PCI database" file;
  this is the only package I use or know much about.  Other packages can
  display data from the PCI database to one or another of several
  PCI-supported third-party color displays, output numeric or bitmap
  representation of image data to an attached printer, e.g. an Epson-type
  dot-matrix graphics printer.  You might be more spe- cifically
  interested in the mathematical operations package: histo- gram and
  Fourier analysis, equalization, user-specified operations (e.g.
  "multiply channel 1 by 3, add channel 2, and store as channel 5"), and
  God only knows what all else -- there's a LOT.  I don't have and don't
  use these, so can't say much about them; you only buy the packages your
  particular application/interest calls for.

  Each utility is controlled by from one to eight "parameters," read from
  a common "parameter file" which must be (in VMS anyway) in your "default
  directory."  Some utilities will share parameters and use the same
  parameter for a different purpose, so it can get a bit confusing setting
  up a series of operations.  The standard PCI environment contains a
  scripting language very similar to IBM-PC BASIC, but which allows you to
  automate the process of setting up parameters for a common, complicated,
  lengthy or difficult series of utility executions.  (In VMS I can also
  invoke utilities independently from a DCL command procedure.)  There's
  also an optional programming library which allows you to write compiled
  language programs which can interface with (read from/write to) the PCI
  data structures (database file, parameter file).

  The PCI software is designed specifically for remote-sensing images, but
  requires such a level of operator expertise that, once you reach the
  level where you can handle r-s images, you can figure out ways to handle
  a few other things as well.  For instance, the Tape I/O package offers a
  utility for reading headerless multi-band (what Adobe PhotoShop on the
  Macintosh calls "raw") data from tape, in a number of different
  "interleave" orders. This turns out to be ideal for manipulating the
  graphic-arts industry's "CT2T" format, would probably (I haven't tried)
  handle Targa, and so on. Above all, however, you HAVE TO KNOW WHAT
  YOU'RE DOING or you can screw up to the Nth degree and have to start
  over.  It's worth noting that the PCI "database" file is designed to
  contain not only "raster" (image) data, but vectors (for overlaying map
  information entered via digitizing table), land-use, and all manner of
  other information (I observe that a remote-sensing image tape often
  contains all manner of information about the spectral bands, latitude,
  longitude, time, date, etc. of the original satellite pass; all of this
  can go into the PCI "database").

  I _believe_ that on workstations the built-in display is used.  On VAX
  systems OTHER than workstations PCI supports only a couple of specific
  third-party display systems (the name Gould/Deanza seems to come to
  mind).  One of MY personal workarounds was a display program which would
  display directly from a PCI "database" file to a Peritek VCT-Q (Q-bus
  24-bit DirectColor) display subsystem.  PCI software COULD be "overkill"
  in your case; it seems designed for the very "high end"
  applications/users, i.e. those for whom a Mac/PC largely doesn't suffice
  (although as you know the gap is getting smaller all the time).  It's
  probably no coincidence that PCI is located in Canada, a country which
  does a LOT of its land/resource management via remote sensing; I believe
  the Canadian government uses PCI software for some of its work in these
  areas.

SPAM (Spectral Analysis Manager)
  Back in 1985 JPL developed something called SPAM (Spectral Analysis
  Manager) which got a fair amount of use at the time.  That was designed
  for Airborne Imaging Spectrometer imagery (byte data, <= 256 pixels
  across by <= 512 lines by <= 256 bands); a modified version has since
  been developed for AVIRIS (Airborne VIsual and InfraRed Imaging
  Spectrometer) which uses much larger images.

  Spam does none of these things (rectification, classification, PC and
  IHS transformations, filtering, contrast enhancement, overlays).
  Actually, it does limited filtering and contrast enhancement
  (stretching).  Spam is aimed at spectral identification and clustering.

  The original Spam uses X or SunView to display.  The AVIRIS version may
  require VICAR, an executive based on TAE, and may also require a frame
  buffer.  I can refer you to people if you're interested.  PCW requires X
  for display.

MAP II
------
  Among the Mac GIS systems, MAP II is distributed by John Wiley.

CLRview
-------
  CLRview is a 3-dimensional visualization program designed to exploit
  the real-time capabilities of Silicon Graphics IRIS computers.

  This program is designed to provide a core set of tools to aid in the
  visualization of information from CAD and GIS sources.  It supports
  the integration of many common but disperate data sources such as DXF,
  TIN, DEM, Lattices, and Arc/Info Coverages among others.

  CLRview can be obtained from explorer.dgp.utoronto.ca (128.100.1.129) 
  in the directory pub/sgi/clrview.

  Contact:
  Rodney Hoinkes
  Head of Design Applications
  Centre for Landscape Research
  University of Toronto
  Tel:   (416) 978-7197
  Email: rodney@dgp.utoronto.ca

End of Resource Listing

: 
: Where could I find a description of the JPG file format?  Specifically
: I need to know where in a JPG file I can find the height and width of 
: the image, and perhaps even the number of colors being used.
: 
: Any suggestions?
: 
: Peter

Try ftp.uu.net, in /graphics/jpeg.
--

God CAN be seen:
        "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts."
        (Ex. 33:23)
        "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his
        friend." (Ex. 33:11)
        "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
        (Gen. 32:30)
God CANNOT be seen:
        "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
        "And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man
        see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)
        "Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)

So it was a complete non-sequitur, is that it?     How does coming
up with a derisory deal tell us anything about the existence of
"objective" values.

You're asking us to accept that the deal you offered would be turned
down, and we believe that, not because we appeal to objective values
but becasue we know, or think we know, something about people.

All the people we know exhibit *subjective* values that would lead
them to reject a deal of $1 for all of the land in America.

Great.   Now, so what?

Remember the armor of God?  The sword that Christians wield is the
Word of God, the Bible.

I went back and looked at the review again.  They claim there were
significant differences in manipulating a 27 meg test file, but with
smaller files, the two platforms were the about the same.  David

The Nicene Creed

WE BELIEVE in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate.  He suffered and was buried, and the third day rose again according to the Scriptur

es, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.  And he shall come again with glory to judge  both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

: >There is an emergency oxygen system that is capable of maintaining a
: >breathable atmosphere in the cabin for long enough to come down, even
: >if there is something like a 5cm hole in the wall that nobody tries
: >to plug.

Josh Hopkins (jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) replied:
: Wow.

: Double wow.  Can you land a shuttle with a 5cm hole in the wall?

Personnally, I don't know, but I'd like to try it sometime.

Programmatically, yes, we can land an Orbiter with a 5 cm hole in
the wall -- provided that the thing which caused 5 cm hole didn't
cause a Crit 1 failure on some of the internal systems.  There are
a few places where a 5 cm hole would cause a Bad Day -- especially
if the 5 cm hole went all the way through the Orbiter and out the
other side, as could easily happen with a meteor strike.  But a
hole in the pressure vessel would cause us to immediately de-orbit
to the next available landing site.

  Of course; sorry for the misunderstanding.  I was referring to the fact
that far more aeronautical development took place in the '30's.  For much
of the '20's, the super-abundance of Jennies and OX-5 engines held down the
industry.  By 1926, many of the obsolete WWI aircraft had been retired
and Whirlwind had their power/weight ratio and reliability up to the point
where long-distance flights became practical.  It's important to note that
the Atlantic was flown not once but THREE times in 1927:  Lindbergh,
Chamberlin and Levine, and Byrd's _America_.  "When it's time to railroad,
you railroad."

  Not off the top of my head; I'll have to dig out my reference books again.
However, I will say that the most common arrangement in Prince Henry the
Navigator's Portugal was for the prince to put up part of the money and
merchants to put up the rest.  They profits from the voyage would then be
shared.

  The problem is that the amount of prize money required to inspire a
Moon Base is much larger than any but a handful of individuals or corporations
can even consider putting up.  The Kremer Prizes (human powered aircraft),
Orteig's prize, Lord Northcliffe's prize for crossing the Atlantic (won in
1919 by Alcock and Brown) were MUCH smaller.  The technologies required were
within the reach of individual inventors, and the prize amounts were well
within the reach of a large number of wealthy individuals.  I think that only
a gov't could afford to set up a $1B+ prize for any purpose whatsoever.
  Note that Burt Rutan suggested that NASP could be built most cheaply by
taking out an ad in AvWeek stating that the first company to build a plane
that could take off and fly the profile would be handed $3B, no questions
asked.

Will someone tell an ignorant physicist where the term "Level 5" comes
from? It sounds like the RISKS Digest  equivalent of Large, Extra
Large, Jumbo... Or maybe it's like "Defcon 5..."

I gather it means that Shuttle software was developed with extreme
care to have reliablility and safety, and almost everything else in
the computing world is Level 1, or cheesy dime-store software.  Not
surprising.  But who is it that invents this standard, and how come
everyone but me seems to be familiar with it?

Archive-name: graphics/resources-list/part1

Computer Graphics Resource Listing : WEEKLY POSTING [ PART 1/3 ]

Many FAQs, including this Listing, are available on the archive site
pit-manager.mit.edu (alias rtfm.mit.edu) [18.172.1.27] in the directory
pub/usenet/news.answers.  The name under which a FAQ is archived appears
in the Archive-name line at the top of the article.
This FAQ is archived as graphics/resources-list/part[1-3]

There's a mail server on that machine. You send a e-mail message to
mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu  containing the keyword "help" (without
quotes!) in the message body.

You can see in many other places for this Listing. See the item:

0. Places to find the Resource Listing

for more information.

Items Changed:

RE-ARRANGED the subjects, in order to fir better in the 63K/article limit.
I PLAN ON CHANGING HEADERS SOON, SO BE CAREFUL! ONLY THE "Resource Listing"
keys are sure to remain in the Subject: line!

6.  3D graphics editors
   a. Public domain, free and shareware systems
9. Plotting packages

[ I'm thinking of making this post bi-weekly. What do you think??? ]

Lines which got changed, have the `#' character in front of them.
Added lines are prepended with a `+'
Removed lines are just removed. Use 'diff' to locate these changes.

This text is (C)Copyright 1992, 1993 of Nikolaos C. Fotis. You can copy
freely this file, provided you keep this copyright notice intact.

Compiled by Nikolaos (Nick) C. Fotis, e-mail: nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr

Please contact me for updates,corrections, etc.

Disclaimer: I do not guarantee the accuracy of this document.
Use it at your own risk.

This is mainly a guide for computer graphics software.
I would suggest reading the Comp. Graphics FAQ for image analysis stuff.

It's entitled: 
 (date) comp.graphics Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

 John T. Grieggs <grieggs@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov> is the poster of the
 official comp.graphics FAQ

I have included my comments within braces '[' and ']'.

Nikolaos Fotis

Contents of the Resource Listing
================================

PART1:
------
1. ARCHIE
2. Notes
3. Computer graphics FTP site list, by Eric Haines
4. Mail servers and graphics-oriented BBSes
5. Ray-tracing/graphics-related mailing lists.
   b. Commercial systems
7. Scene description languages
8. Solids description formats

PART2:
------

10. Image analysis software - Image processing and display

PART3:
------
12. 3D scanners - Digitized 3D Data.
   a. Ray tracing
   b. Z-buffer (depth-buffer)
   c. Others
   a. Teapot ?
   b. Space Shuttle ?

Future additions:
[Please send me updates/info!]

======================================

#This file is crossposted to comp.graphics, comp.answers and news.answers,
so if you can't locate it in comp.graphics, you're advised to search in
#comp.answers or news.answers
(The latter groups usually are archived in your site. Contact your sysadmin
for more info).

These 3 articles are posted to comp.graphics 3-4 times a month and are kept in
many places (see below)

--

Many FAQs, including this one, are available on the archive site

mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu  containing: help in the Subject: field

--

The inria-graphlib mail server mirrors this posting (see under the
Subject 4: Mail servers )

--

The Resource Listing is accesible through WAIS in the machine
enuxva.eas.asu.edu (port 8000) under the name graphics-resources-list.
It's got a digest-type line before every numbered item for purposes of
indexing.

--

Another place that monitors the Listing is the MaasInfo files.
For more info contact Robert E. Maas <rem@btr.com>

--

Yet another place to search for FAQs in general is the SWITCH
(Swiss Academic and Research Network) system in Switzerland:

interactive:
  telnet nic.switch.ch [130.59.1.40], login as "info". Move to the
  info_service/Usenet/periodic-postings directory. Search in the
  00index file by typing "/" and the word to look for.
  You may then just read the FAQ in the "faqs" directory, or decide
  to fetch it by one of the following methods.

ftp:
  login to nic.switch.ch [130.59.1.40] as user anonymous and
  enter your internet-style address after being prompted for a
  password.

	cd info_service/Usenet/periodic-postings

mail:
  send e-mail to

RFC-822:
   archive-server@nic.switch.ch
X.400:
  /S=archive-server/OU=nic/O=switch/PRMD=switch/ADMD=arcom/C=ch/

Enter 'help' in the bodypart to receive instructions. No information
is required in the subject header line.

1. ARCHIE
=========

The Archie is a service system to locate FTP places for
requested files. It's appreciated that you will use Archie
before asking help in the newsgroups.

Archie servers:
  archie.au or 139.130.4.6             (Aussie/NZ)
  archie.funet.fi or 128.214.6.100  (Finland/Eur.)
  archie.th-darmstadt.de or 130.83.128.111  (GER.)
  cs.huji.ac.il or 132.65.6.5             (Israel)
  archie.kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp or 130.54.20.1 (JAPAN)
  archie.sogang.ac.kr or 163.239.1.11      (Korea)
  archie.ncu.edu.tw or telnet 140.115.19.24  (TWN)
  archie.doc.ic.ac.uk or 146.169.3.7  (UK/Ireland)
  archie.sura.net or 128.167.254.179    (USA [MD])
  archie.unl.edu (password: archie1)    (USA [NE])
  archie.ans.net or 147.225.1.2         (USA [NY])
  archie.rutgers.edu or 128.6.18.15     (USA [NJ])
  archie.nz or 130.195.9.4           (New Zealand)

Connect to Archie server with telnet and type "archie" as username.
To get help type 'help'.
You can get 'xarchie' or 'archie', which are clients that call Archie
without the burden of a telnet session.
'Xarchie' is on the X11.R5 contrib tape, and 'archie' on comp.sources.misc,
vol. 27.

To get information on how to use Archie via e-mail, send mail with
subject "help" to "archie" account at any of above sites.

(Note to Janet/PSS users -- the United Kingdom archie site is
accessible on the Janet host doc.ic.ac.uk [000005102000].
Connect to it and specify "archie" as the host name and "archie" as
the username.)

2. Notes
========
(Excerpted from the FAQ article)

Please do *not* post or mail messages saying "I can't FTP, could
someone mail this to me?"  There are a number of automated mail servers
that will send you things like this in response to a message.

There are a number of sites that archive the Usenet sources newsgroups
and make them available via an email query system.  You send a message
to an automated server saying something like "send comp.sources.unix/fbm",
and a few hours or days later you get the file in the mail.

==================================================

Computer graphics related FTP sites (and maintainers), 26/03/93
	compiled by Eric Haines, erich@eye.com
	and Nick Fotis, nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr

Ray-tracers:
------------

RayShade - a great ray tracer for workstations on up, also for PC, Mac & Amiga.
PoV - son and successor to DKB trace, written by Compuservers.
	(For more questions call Drew Wells --
	73767.1244@compuserve.com or Dave Buck -- david_buck@carleton.ca)
ART - ray tracer with a good range of surface types, part of VORT package.
DKBtrace - another good ray tracer, from all reports; PCs, Mac II,
	Amiga, UNIX, VMS (last two with X11 previewer), etc.
RTrace - Portugese ray tracer, does bicubic patches, CSG, 3D text, etc. etc.
	An MS-DOS version for use with DJGPP DOS extender (GO32) exists also,
	as a Mac port.
VIVID2 - A shareware raytracer for PCs - binary only (286/287).  Author:
	Stephen Coy (coy@ssc-vax.boeing.com).  The 386/387 (no source) version
	is available to registered users (US$50) direct from the author.
RAY4 - Steve Hollasch's 4-dimensional ray tracer - renders hyperspheres,
	hypertetrahedra, hyperplanes, and hyperparallelepipeds (there's
	a separate real-time wireframe viewer written in GL called WIRE4 ) .
MTV,QRT,DBW - yet more ray tracers, some with interesting features.

Distributed/Parallel Raytracers:

XDART - A distributed ray-tracer that runs under X11. There are server binaries
	which work only on DECstations, SPARCs, HP Snakes (7x0 series) and NeXT.
	The clients are distributed as binaries and C source.
Inetray - A network version of Rayshade 4.0.  Needs Sun RPC 4.0 or newer.
	Contact Andreas Thurnherr (ant@ips.id.ethz.ch)
prt, VM_pRAY - parallel ray tracers.

Volume renderers:
-----------------

VREND - Cornell's Volume Renderer, from Kartch/Devine/Caffey/Warren (FORTRAN).

Radiosity (and diffuse lighting) renderers:
-------------------------------------------

Radiance - a ray tracer w/radiosity effects, by Greg Ward.  Excellent shading
	models and physically based lighting simulation.  Unix/X based, though
	has been ported to the Amiga and the PC (386).
INDIA - An Indian radiosity package based on Radiance.
SGI_RAD - An interactive radiosity package that runs on SGI machines with a
	Spaceball. It includes a house database.
	Author: Guy Moreillon <moreillo@ligsg1.epfl.ch>
RAD - a simple public-domain radiosity package in C. The solution can be run
	stand-alone on any Unix box, but the walk-through requires a SGI 4D.
	Author: Bernard Kwok <g-kwok@cs.yorku.ca>

Renderers which are not raytracers, and graphics libraries:
-----------------------------------------------------------

SIPP - Scan line z-buffer and Phong shading renderer.
	Now uses the shadow buffer algorithm.
Tcl-SIPP - a Tcl command interface to the SIPP rendering
	program. Tcl-SIPP is a set of Tcl commands used to programmed
	SIPP without having to write and compile C code.
	Commands are used to specify surfaces, objects,
	scenes and rendering options.
	It renders either in PPM format or in Utah Raster Toolkit RLE format
	or to the photo widget in the Tk-based X11 applications.

VOGLE - graphics learning environment (device portable).
VOGL - an SGI GL-like library based on VOGLE.
REND386 - A *fast* polygon renderer for Intel 386s and up. Version 2 on up.
	[ It's not photorealistic, but rather a real-time renderer]
XSHARP21 - Dr. Dobb's Journal PC renderer source code, with budget texture
	mapping.

Modellers, wireframe viewers:

VISION-3D - Mac modeler, can output Radiance & Rayshade files.
IRIT - A CSG solid modeler, with support for freeform surfaces.
X3D - A wireframe viewer for X11.
3DV - 3-D wireframe graphics toolkit, with C source, 3dv objects, other stuff
	Look at major PC archives like wuarchive. One such file is 3DKIT1.ZIP
PV3D - a shareware front end modeler for POVRAY, still in beta test.
  French docs for now, price for registering 250 French Francs. Save disabled.
  Some extra utilities, DXF files for the registered version.

Geometric viewers:

SALEM - A GL-based package from Dobkin et al. for exploring mathematical
	structures.
GEOMVIEW - A GL-based package for looking and interactively manipulating
3D objects, from Geometry Center at Minnesota.
XYZ GeoBench -(eXperimental geometrY Zurich) is a workbench for geometric
	computation for Macintosh computers.
WIRE4 - GL wireframe previewer for Steve Hollasch's RAY4 (see above)

Data Formats and Data Sets for Ray Tracing:

SPD - a set of procedural databases for testing ray tracers.
NFF - simplistic file format used by SPD.
OFF - another file format.
P3D - a lispy file format.
TDDD - Imagine (3D modeler) format, has converters for RayShade, NFF, OFF, etc.
	Also includes a nice postscript object displayer.  Some GREAT models.
TTDDDLIB - converts to/from TDDD/TTDDD, OFF, NFF, Rayshade 4.0, Imagine,
	and vort 3d objects. Also outputs Framemaker MIF files and isometric
	views in Postscript. Registered users get a TeX PK font converter and
	a superquadric surfaces generator.
	Glenn Lewis <glewis@pcocd2.intel.com>
	[Note : TTDDDLIB is also known as T3DLIB]
CHVRTD - Chapel Hill Volume Rendering Test Datasets, includes volume sets for
	two heads, a brain, a knee, electron density maps for RNA and others.

Written Material on Rendering:

RT News - collections of articles on ray tracing.
RT bib - references to articles on ray tracing in "refer" format.
Rad bib - references to articles on radiosity (global illumination).
Speer RT bib - Rick Speer's cross-referenced RT bib, in postscript.
RT abstracts - collection by Tom Wilson of abstracts of many RT articles.
Paper bank project - various technical papers in electronic form.  Contact
	Juhana Kouhia <jk87377@cs.tut.fi>
Online Bibliography Project :
        The ACM SIGGRAPH Online Bibliography Project is a database of 
        over 15,000 unique computer graphics and computational geometry
        references in BibTeX format, available to the computer graphics
        community as a research and educational resource.

        The database is located at "siggraph.org".  Users may download 
        the BibTeX files via FTP and peruse them offline, or telnet to
        "siggraph.org" and log in as "biblio" and interactively search
        the database for entries of interest, by keyword.
        For the people without Internet access, there's also an e-mail
        server. Send mail to

        archive-server@siggraph.org

        and in the subject or the body of the message include the message  send
        followed by the topic and subtopic you wish. A good place to start is
        with the command
             send index
        which will give you an up-to-date list of available information.

        Additions/corrections/suggestions may be directed to the admin,
        "bibadmin@siggraph.org".

Image Manipulation Libraries:

Utah Raster Toolkit - nice image manipulation tools.
PBMPLUS - a great package for image conversion and manipulation.
LIBTIFF - library for reading/writing TIFF images.
ImageMagick - X11 package for display and interactive manipulation
	of images.  Uses its own format (MIFF), and includes some converters.
xv - X-based image display, manipulation, and format converter.
xloadimage, xli - displays various formats on an X11 screen.
Khoros - a huge, excellent system for image processing, with a visual
	programming interface and much much more.  Uses X windows.
FBM - another set of image manipulation tools, somewhat old now.
Img - image manipulation, displays on X11 screen, a bit old now.
xflick - Plays .FLI animation under X11
XAnim - plays any resolution FLI along with GIF's(including GIF89a animation
	extensions), DL's and Amiga IFF animations(3,5,J,l) and IFF
	pictures(including HAM,EHB and color cycling)
SDSC - SDSC Image Tools package (San Diego Supercomputing Center)
	for image manipulation and conversion
CLRpaint - A 24-bit paint program for SGI 24bit workstations and 8bit Indigos.

Libraries with code for graphics:

Graphics Gems I,II,III - code from the ever so useful books.
spline-patch.tar.Z - spline patch ray intersection routines by Sean Graves
kaleido - Computation and 3D Display of Uniform Polyhedra. Mirrored in
	wuarchive. This package computes (and displays) the metrical
	properties of 75 polyhedra. Author: Dr. Zvi Har'El,
	e-mail: rl@gauss.technion.ac.il

(*) means site is an "official" distributor, so is most up to date.

NORTH AMERICA (please look for things on your own continent first...):

wuarchive.wustl.edu [128.252.135.4]:  /graphics/graphics - get CONTENTS file
	for a roadmap.  /graphics/graphics/objects/TDDD - *the TTDDD objects
	and converters*, /mirrors/unix-c/graphics - Rayshade ray tracer, MTV
	ray tracer, Vort ray tracer, FBM, PBMPLUS, popi, Utah raster toolkit.
	/mirrors/msdos/graphics - DKB ray tracer, FLI RayTracker demos.
	/pub/rad.tar.Z - *SGI_RAD*, /graphics/graphics/radiosity - Radiance
	and Indian radiosity package.  /msdos/ddjmag/ddj9209.zip - version 21
	of Xsharp, with fast texture mapping.  There's lots more, including
	bibs, Graphics Gems I & II code, OFF, RTN, Radiance, NFF, SIPP, spline
	patch intersection routines, textbook errata, source code from Roy
	Hall's book "Illumination and Color in Computer Generated Imagery", etc
	graphics/graphics/packages/kaleido - *kaleido*
	George Kyriazis <kyriazis@turing.cs.rpi.edu>

princeton.edu [128.112.128.1]:  /pub/Graphics (note capital "G") - *Rayshade
	4.0 ray tracer (and separate 387 executable)*, *color quantization
	code*, *SPD*, *RT News*, *Wilson's RT abstracts*, "RT bib*, *Utah
	Raster Toolkit*, newer FBM, *Graphics Gems I, II & III code*.
	/pub/graphics directory - *SALEM* and other stuff.
	Craig Kolb <cek@princeton.edu>
	[replaces weedeater.math.yale.edu - note the capital "G" in
	pub/Graphics] Because there's a trouble with princeton's incoming
	area, you can upload Rayshade-specific stuff to
	weedeater.math.yale.edu [128.36.23.17]

alfred.ccs.carleton.ca [134.117.1.1]:  /pub/dkbtrace - *DKB ray tracer*,
	/pub/pov-ray/POV-Ray1.0 - *PVRay Compuserve group ray tracer (or PoV)*.
	David Buck <david_buck@carleton.ca>

avalon.chinalake.navy.mil [129.131.31.11]:  3D objects (multiple formats),
	utilities, file format documents.
	This site was created to be a 3D object "repository" for the net.
	Francisco X DeJesus <dejesus@archimedes.chinalake.navy.mil>

omicron.cs.unc.edu [152.2.128.159]:  pub/softlab/CHVRTD - Chapel Hill
	Volume Rendering Test Datasets.

ftp.mv.com [192.80.84.1]: - Official DDJ FTP repository.
	*XSHARP*

peipa.essex.ac.uk [155.245.115.161]: the Pilot European Image Processing
	Archive; in a directory ipa/synth or something like that, there are
	image synthesis packages.
	Adrian Clarke <alien@essex.ac.uk>

barkley.berkeley.edu [128.32.142.237] : tcl/extensions/tsipp3.0b.tar.Z -
	*Tcl-SIPP*
	Mark Diekhans <markd@grizzly.com or markd@NeoSoft.com>

acs.cps.msu.edu [35.8.56.90]: pub/sass - *X window fonts converter into
	Rayshade 3.0 polygons*, Rayshade animation tool(s).
	Ron Sass <sass@cps.msu.edu>

hobbes.lbl.gov [128.3.12.38]: *Radiance* ray trace/radiosity package.
	Greg Ward <gjward@lbl.gov>

geom.umn.edu [128.101.25.31] : pub/geomview - *GEOMVIEW*
	Contact (for GEOMVIEW): software@geom.umn.edu

ftp.arc.umn.edu [137.66.130.11] : pub/gvl.tar.Z - the latest version of Bob,
	Icol and Raz.  Source, a manual, man pages, and binaries for
	IRIX 4.0.5 are included (Bob is a real time volume renderer)
	pub/  contains also many volume datasets.
	Ken Chin-Purcell <ken@ahpcrc.umn.edu>

ftp.kpc.com [144.52.120.9] : /pub/graphics/holl91 - Steve Hollasch's
	Thesis, /pub/graphics/ray4 - *RAY4*, /pub/graphics/wire4 - *WIRE4*.
	/pub/mirror/avalon - mirror of avalon's 3D objects repository.
	Steve Hollasch <hollasch@kpc.com>

swedishchef.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.54.33] : programs/hollasch-4d - RAY4,
	SGI Explorer modules and Postscript manual, etc.

zamenhof.cs.rice.edu [128.42.1.75] : pub/graphics.formats - Various electronic
	documents about many object and image formats.
	Mark Hall <foo@cs.rice.edu>
	will apparently no longer be maintaining it, see ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu.

rascal.ics.utexas.edu [128.83.144.1]:  /misc/mac/inqueue - VISION-3D facet
	based modeller, can output RayShade and Radiance files.

ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.20.50] :  misc/file.formats/graphics.formats -
	contains various image- and object-format descriptions.  Many SciVi
	tools in various directories, e.g.  SGI/Alpha-shape/Alvis-1.0.tar.Z -
	3D alpha-shape visualizer (SGI machines only),
	SGI/Polyview3.0/polyview.Z - interactive visualization and analysis of
	3D geometrical structures.
	Quincey Koziol <koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu>

tucana.noao.edu [140.252.1.1] : /iraf - the IRAF astronomy package

ftp.ipl.rpi.edu [128.113.14.50]:  sigma/erich - SPD images and Haines thesis
	images.  pub/images - various 24 and 8 bit image stills and sequences.
	Kevin Martin <sigma@ipl.rpi.edu>

ftp.psc.edu [128.182.66.148]:  pub/p3d - p3d_2_0.tar P3D lispy scene
	language & renderers.  Joel Welling <welling@seurat.psc.edu>

ftp.ee.lbl.gov [128.3.254.68]: *pbmplus.tar.Z*, RayShade data files.
	Jef Poskanzer <jef@ace.ee.lbl.gov>

george.lbl.gov [128.3.196.93]: pub/ccs-lib/ccs.tar.Z - *CCS (Complex
	Conversion System), a standard software interface for image processing*

hanauma.stanford.edu [36.51.0.16]: /pub/graphics/Comp.graphics - best of
	comp.graphics (very extensive), ray-tracers - DBW, MTV, QRT, and more.
	Joe Dellinger <joe@hanauma.stanford.edu>

ftp.uu.net [192.48.96.2]:  /graphics - *IRIT*, RT News back issues (not
	complete), NURBS models, other graphics related material.
	/graphics/jpeg/jpegsrc.v?.tar.Z - Independent JPEG Group package for
	reading and writing JPEG files.

freebie.engin.umich.edu [141.212.68.23]:  *Utah Raster Toolkit*,
	Spencer Thomas <thomas@eecs.umich.edu>

export.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.0.12] : /contrib - pbmplus, Image Magick, xloadimage,
	xli, xv, Img, lots more.  /pub/R5untarred/mit/demos/gpc - NCGA Graphics
	Performance Characterization (GPC) Suite.

life.pawl.rpi.edu [128.113.10.2]: /pub/ray - *Kyriazis stochastic Ray Tracer*.

cs.utah.edu [128.110.4.21]: /pub - Utah raster toolkit, *NURBS databases*.
	Jamie Painter <jamie@cs.utah.edu>

gatekeeper.dec.com [16.1.0.2]:  /pub/DEC/off.tar.Z - *OFF models*,
	Also GPC Benchmark files (planned, but not checked).
	Randi Rost <rost@kpc.com>

hubcap.clemson.edu [130.127.8.1]:  /pub/amiga/incoming/imagine - stuff for the
	Amiga Imagine & Turbo Silver ray tracers.  /pub/amiga/TTDDDLIB -
	*TTDDDLIB* /pub/amiga/incoming/imagine/objects - MANY objects.

pprg.eece.unm.edu [129.24.24.10]:  /pub/khoros - *Khoros image processing
	package (huge, but great)*.
	Danielle Argiro <danielle@bullwinkle.unm.edu>

expo.lcs.mit.edu [18.30.0.212]:  contrib - *PBMPLUS portable bitmap package*,
	*poskbitmaptars bitmap collection*, *Raveling Img*, xloadimage.  Jef
	Poskanzer <jef@well.sf.ca.us>

venera.isi.edu [128.9.0.32]:  */pub/Img.tar.z and img.tar.z - some image
	manipulation*, /pub/images - RGB separation photos.
	Paul Raveling <raveling@venera.isi.edu>

ucsd.edu [128.54.16.1]:  /graphics - utah rle toolkit, pbmplus, fbm,
	databases, MTV, DBW and other ray tracers, world map, other stuff.
	Not updated much recently.

castlab.engr.wisc.edu [128.104.52.10]:  /pub/x3d.2.2.tar.Z - *X3D*
	/pub/xdart.1.1.* - *XDART*
	Mark Spychalla <spy@castlab.engr.wisc.edu>

sgi.com [192.48.153.1]:  /graphics/tiff - TIFF 6.0 spec & *LIBTIFF* software
	and pics.  Also much SGI- and GL-related stuff (e.g. OpenGL manuals)
	Sam Leffler <sam@sgi.com>
	[supercedes okeeffe.berkeley.edu for the LIBTIFF stuff]

surya.waterloo.edu [129.97.129.72]: /graphics - FBM, ray tracers

ftp.sdsc.edu [132.249.20.22]: /sdscpub - *SDSC*

ftp.brl.mil [128.63.16.158]: /brl-cad - information on how to get the
	BRL CAD package & ray tracer.  /images - various test images.
	A texture library has also begun here.
	Lee A. Butler <butler@BRL.MIL>

cicero.cs.umass.edu [128.119.40.189]:  /texture_temp - 512x512 grayscale
	Brodatz textures,
	from Julien Flack <julien@scs.leeds.ac.uk>.

karazm.math.uh.edu [129.7.7.6]:  pub/Graphics/rtabs.shar.12.90.Z - *Wilson's
	RT abstracts*, VM_pRAY.
	J. Eric Townsend <jet@karazm.math.uh.edu or jet@nas.nasa.gov>

ftp.pitt.edu [130.49.253.1]:  /users/qralston/images - 24 bit image archive
	(small).  James Ralston Crawford <qralston@gl.pitt.edu>

ftp.tc.cornell.edu [128.84.201.1]: /pub/vis - *VREND*

sunee.waterloo.edu [129.97.50.50]: /pub/raytracers - vivid, *REND386*
	[or sunee.uwaterloo.ca]

archive.umich.edu [141.211.164.153]: /msdos/graphics - PC graphics stuff.
	/msdos/graphics/raytrace - VIVID2.

apple.apple.com [130.43.2.2?]:  /pub/ArchiveVol2/prt.

research.att.com [192.20.225.2]: /netlib/graphics - *SPD package*, ~/polyhedra -
	*polyhedra databases*.  (If you don't have FTP, use the netlib
	automatic mail replier:  UUCP - research!netlib, Internet -
	netlib@ornl.gov.  Send one line message "send index" for more info,
	"send haines from graphics" to get the SPD)

siggraph.org [128.248.245.250]: SIGGRAPH archive site.
	publications - *Online Bibliography Project*, Conference proceedings
	in various electronic formats (papers, panels), SIGGRAPH Video Review
	information and order forms.
	Other stuff in various directories.
	Automatic mailer is archive-server@siggraph.org ("send index").

ftp.cs.unc.edu [128.109.136.159]: pub/reaction_diffusion - Greg Turk's work on
	reaction-diffusion textures, X windows code (SIGGRAPH '91)

avs.ncsc.org [128.109.178.23]:  ~ftp/VolVis92 - Volume datasets from the
	Boston Workshop on Volume Visualization '92.  This site is also the
	International AVS Center.
	Terry Myerson <tvv@ncsc.org>

uvacs.cs.virginia.edu [128.143.8.100]:  pub/suit/demo/{sparc,dec,etc} - SUIT
	(Simple User Interface Toolkit).  "finger suit@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu"
	to get detailed instructions.

nexus.yorku.ca [130.63.9.66]: /pub/reports/Radiosity_code.tar.Z - *RAD*
	/pub/reports/Radiosity_thesis.ps.Z - *RAD MSc. Thesis*
	[This site will be changed to ftp.yorku.ca in the near future]

milton.u.washington.edu [128.95.136.1] - ~ftp/public/veos - VEOS Virtual
	Reality and distributed applications prototyping environment
	for Unix. Veos Software Support : veos-support@hitl.washington.edu
        oldpublic/fly - FLY! 3D Visualization Software demo.
        That package is built for "fly-throughs" from various datasets in
        near real-time. There are binaries for many platforms.
	Also, much other Virtual Reality stuff.

zug.csmil.umich.edu [141.211.184.2]: X-Xpecs 3D files (an LCD glass shutter
	for Amiga computers - great for VR stuff!)

sugrfx.acs.syr.edu [128.230.24.1]: Various stereo-pair images.
[ Has closed down :-( ]

sunsite.unc.edu [152.2.22.81]: /pub/academic/computer-science/virtual-reality -
	Final copy of the sugrfx.acs.syr.edu archive that ceased to exist.
	It contains Powerglove code, VR papers, 3D images and IRC research
	material.
	Jonathan Magid <jem@sunSITE.unc.edu>

archive.cis.ohio-state.edu [128.146.8.52]: pub/siggraph92 - Code for
	Siggraph '92 Course 23 (Procedural Modeling and Rendering Techniques)
	Dr. David S. Ebert <ebert@cis.ohio-state.edu>

lyapunov.ucsd.edu [132.239.86.10]: This machine is considered the
	repository for preprints and programs for nonlinear dynamics,
	signal processing, and related subjects  (and fractals, of course!)
	Matt Kennel <mbk@inls1.ucsd.edu>

cod.nosc.mil [128.49.16.5]: /pub/grid.{ps,tex,ascii} - a short survey of
	methods to interpolate and contour bivariate data

ics.uci.edu [128.195.1.1]: /honig --- Various stereo-pair images,
	movie.c - animates a movie on an X display (8-bit and mono) with
	digital subtraction.

taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil [131.120.1.13]: pub/dabro/cyberware_demo.tar.Z - Human
	head data

pioneer.unm.edu [129.24.9.217]:  pub/texture_maps - Hans du Buf's grayscale
	test textures (aerial swatches, Brodatz textures, synthetic swatches).
	Space & planetary image repository.  Provides access to >150 CD-ROMS
	with data/images (3 on-line at a time).
        pub/info/beginner-info - here you should start browsing.
        Colby Kraybill <opus@pioneer.unm.edu>.

cs.brown.edu [128.148.33.66] : *SRGP/SPHIGS* . For more info on SRGP/SPHIGS:
         mail -s 'software-distribution' graphtext@cs.brown.edu

pdb.pdb.bnl.gov [130.199.144.1] has data about various organic molecules,
       bonds between the different atoms, etc.
       Atomic coordinates (and a load of other stuff) are contained in the
       "*.ent" files, but the actual atomic dimemsions seem to be missing.
       You could convert these data to PoV, rayshade, etc.

biome.bio.ns.ca [142.2.20.2] : /pub/art - some Renoir paintings,
        Escher's pictures, etc.

ic16.ee.umanitoba.ca [] : /specmark - sample set of images from the
        `Images from the Edge' CD-ROM (images of atomic landscapes, advanced
        semiconductors, superconductors and experimental surface
        chemistry among others). Contact ruskin@ee.umanitoba.ca

explorer.dgp.toronto.edu [128.100.1.129] : pub/sgi/clrpaint - *CLRpaint*
        pub/sgi/clrview.* - CLRview, a tool that aids in visualization
        of GIS datasets in may formats like DXF, DEM, Arc/Info, etc.

ames.arc.nasa.gov [128.102.18.3]: pub/SPACE/CDROM - images from Magellan
        and Viking missions etc. Get pub/SPACE/Index first.
        pub/SPACELINK has most of the SpaceLink service data (see below)
        e-mail server available: send mail to archive-server@ames.arc.nasa.gov
        (or ames!archive-server) with subject:"help"
        or "send SPACE Index" (without the quotes!)
        Peter Yee <yee@ames.arc.nasa.gov>

pubinfo.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.6.2]: images, other data, etc. from JPL
        missions. Modem access at (818)-354-1333 (no parity, 8 data bits, 1
        stop bit).
        newsdesk@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov or phone (818)-354-7170

spacelink.msfc.nasa.gov [128.158.13.250] (passwd:guest) : space graphics
        and GIF images from NASA's planetary probes and the Hubble Telescope.
        Main function is support for teachers (you can telnet also to this
        site). Dial up access: (205)-895-0028 (300/1200/2400/9600(V.32) baud,
        8 bits, no parity, 1 stop bit).

stsci.edu [130.167.1.2] : Hubble Space Telescope stuff (images and other
        data). Read the README first!
        Pete Reppert <reppert@stsci.edu> or Chris O'Dea <odea@stsci.edu>

pit-manager.mit.edu [18.172.1.27]:  /pub/usenet/news.answers - the land of
	FAQs.  graphics and pictures directories of particular interest.
	[Also available from mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu by sending a mail
	message containing: help]

UUCP archive: avatar - RT News back issues.  For details, write Kory Hamzeh
	<kory@avatar.avatar.com>

EUROPE:
-------

nic.funet.fi [128.214.6.100]:  *pub/sci/papers - *Paper bank project,
	including Pete Shirley's entire thesis (with pics)*, *Wilson's RT
	abstracts*, pub/misc/CIA_WorldMap - CIA world data bank,
	comp.graphics.research archive, *India*, and much, much more.

dasun2.epfl.ch [128.178.62.2]:  Radiance. Good for European sites, but
	doesn't carry the add-ons that are available for Radiance.

isy.liu.se [130.236.1.3]:  pub/sipp/sipp-3.0.tar.Z - *SIPP* scan line z-buffer
	and Phong shading renderer.  Jonas Yngvesson <jonas-y@isy.liu.se>

irisa.fr [131.254.2.3]:  */iPSC2/VM_pRAY ray tracer*, SPD, /NFF - many non-SPD
	NFF format scenes, RayShade data files.  Didier Badouel
	<badouel@irisa.irisa.fr> [may have disappeared]

phoenix.oulu.fi [130.231.240.17]:  *FLI RayTracker animation files (PC VGA) -
	also big .FLIs (640*480)* *RayScene demos* [Americans:  check wuarchive
	first].  More animations to come.  Jari Kahkonen
	<hole@phoenix.oulu.fi>

jyu.fi [128.214.7.5]: /pub/graphics/ray-traces - many ray tracers, including
	VM_pRAY, DBW, DKB, MTV, QRT, RayShade, some RT News, NFF files.  Jari
	Toivanen <toivanen@jyu.fi>

garbo.uwasa.fi [128.214.87.1]:  Much PC stuff, etc., /pc/source/contour.f -
	FORTRAN program to contour scattered data using linear triangle-based
	interpolation

asterix.inescn.pt [192.35.246.17]:  pub/RTrace - *RTrace* nffutils.tar.Z (NFF
	utilities for RTrace), medical data (CAT, etc.)  converters to NFF,
	Autocad to NFF Autolisp code, AUTOCAD 11 to SCN (RTrace's language)
	converter and other goodies.  Antonio Costa (acc@asterix.inescn.pt)

vega.hut.fi [128.214.3.82]: /graphics - RTN archive, ray tracers (MTV, QRT,
	others), NFF, some models.
[ It was shut down months ago , check under nic.funet.fi -- nfotis ]

sun4nl.nluug.nl [192.16.202.2]: /pub/graphics/raytrace - DBW.microray, MTV, etc

unix.hensa.ac.uk [] : misc/unix/ralcgm/ralcgm.tar.Z - CGM viewer and
        converter.
        There's an e-mail server also - mail to archive@unix.hensa.ac.uk
        with the message body "send misc/unix/ralcgm/ralcgm.tar.Z"

maeglin.mt.luth.se [130.240.0.25]:  graphics/raytracing - prt, others, ~/Doc -
	*Wilson's RT abstracts*, Vivid.

ftp.fu-berlin.de [130.20.225.2]:  /pub/unix/graphics/rayshade4.0/inputs -
	aq.tar.Z is RayShade aquarium [Americans:  check princeton.edu first).
	Heiko Schlichting <heiko@math.fu-berlin.de>

maggia.ethz.ch [129.132.17.1]: pub/inetray - *Inetray* and Sun RPC 4.0 code
	Andreas Thurnherr <ant@ips.id.ethz.ch>

osgiliath.id.dth.dk [129.142.65.24]:  /pub/amiga/graphics/Radiance - *Amiga
	port of Radiance 2.0*.  Per Bojsen <bojsen@ithil.id.dth.dk>

ftp.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de [134.106.1.9] : *PoV raytracer*
        Mirrored in wuarchive, has many goods for PoV.
	pub/dkbtrace/incoming/polyray - Polyray raytracer
        pub/dkbtrace/incoming/pv3d* - *PV3D*

ftp.uni-kl.de [131.246.9.95]: /pub/amiga/raytracing/imagine - mirror of
	the hubcap Imagine files.

neptune.inf.ethz.ch [129.132.101.33]: XYZ - *XYZ GeoBench*
	Peter Schorn <schorn@inf.ethz.ch>

iamsun.unibe.ch [130.92.64.10]: /Graphics/graphtal* - a L-system interpreter.
	Christoph Streit <streit@iam.unibe.ch>

amiga.physik.unizh.ch [130.60.80.80]: /amiga/gfx - Graphics stuff
	for the Amiga computer.

stesis.hq.eso.org [134.171.8.100]: on-line access to a huge astronomical
        database. (login:starcat;no passwd)
        DECnet:STESIS (It's the Space Telescope European Coordination Facility)
        Benoit Pirenne <bpirenne@eso.org>, phone +49 89 320 06 433

MIDDLE EAST

gauss.technion.ac.il [132.68.112.60]: *kaleida*

AUSTRALIA:

gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au [128.250.70.62]: pub - *VORT(ART) ray tracer*, *VOGLE*,
	Wilson's ray tracing abstracts, /pub/contrib/artscenes (ART scenes from
	Italy), pub/images/haines - Haines thesis images, Graphics Gems code,
	SPD, NFF & OFF databases, NFF and OFF previewers, plus some 8- and
	24bit images and lots of other stuff.  pub/rad.tar.Z - *SGI_RAD*
	Bernie Kirby <bernie@ecr.mu.oz.au>

munnari.oz.au [128.250.1.21]:  pub/graphics/vort.tar.Z - *VORT (ART) 2.1 CSG and
	algebraic surface ray tracer*, *VOGLE*, /pub - DBW, pbmplus.  /graphics
	- room.tar.Z (ART scenes from Italy).
	David Hook <dgh@munnari.oz.au>

marsh.cs.curtin.edu.au [134.7.1.1]: pub/graphics/bibliography/Facial_Animation,
	pub/graphics/bibliography/Morph, pub/graphics/bibliography/UI -
	stuff about Facial animation, Morphing and User Interfaces.
	pub/fascia - Fred Parke's fascia program.
	Valerie Hall <val@lillee.cs.curtin.edu.au>

OCEANIA - ASIA:

	based modeller, can output RayShade files*.  Many other neat things
	for Macs.  Paul Bourke <pdbourke@ccu1.aukland.ac.nz>

scslwide.sony.co.jp [133.138.199.1]:  ftp2/SGI/Facial-Animation - Steve Franks
	site for facial animation.
 	Steve Franks <stevef@csl.sony.co.jp OR stevef@cs.umr.edu>

===========================================

Please check first with the FTP places above, with archie's help.
Don't overuse mail servers.

There are some troubles with wrong return addresses. Many of these
mail servers have a command like
   path a_valid_return_e-mail_address
to get a hint for sending back to you stuff.

DEC's FTPMAIL
  Send a one-line message to ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com WITHOUT a Subject: field,
  and having a line containing the word 'help'.
  You should get back a message detailing the relevant procedures you
  must follow in order to get the files you want.

  Note that the "reply" or "answer" command in your mailer will not work
  for this message or any other mail you receive from FTPMAIL.  To send
  requests to FTPMAIL, send an original mail message, not a reply.
  Complaints should be sent to the ftpmail-request@uucp-gw-2.pa.dec.com
  address rather than to postmaster, since DECWRL's postmaster is not
  responsible for fixing ftpmail problems.

BITFTP
------
  For BITNET sites ONLY, there's BITFTP@PUCC.
  Send a one-line 'help' message to this address for more info.

Lightwave 3D mail based file-server
-----------------------------------
  A mail based file server for 3D objects, 24bit JPEG images, GIF images
  and image maps is now online for all those with Internet mail access.
  The server is the official archive site for the Lightwave 3D mail-list
  and contains many PD and Shareware graphics utilities for
  several computer platforms including Amiga, Atari, IBM and Macintosh.

  The server resides on a BBS called "The Graphics BBS".  The BBS is
  operational 24 hours a day 7 days a week at the phone number of +1
  908/469-0049.  It has upgraded its modem to a Hayes Ultra 144
  V.32bis/V.42bis, which has speeds from 300bps up to 38,400bps.

  If you would like to submit objects, scenes or images to the server,
  please pack, uuencode and then mail the files to the address:
  server@bobsbox.rent.com.

  For information on obtaining files from the server send a mail message
  to the address file-server@graphics.rent.com with the following in
  the body of the message:
    HELP
    /DIR
  And a help file describing how to use the server and a complete
  directory listing will be sent to you via mail.

[ Now it includes the Cyberware head and shouders in TTDDD format! Check it
 out, only if you can't use FTP! -- nfotis ]

INRIA-GRAPHLIB
  Pierre Jancene and Sabine Coquillart launched the inria-graphlib mail
  server a few months ago.

    echo help | mail inria-graphlib@inria.fr

  will give you a quick summary of what inria-graphlib contains and 
  how to browse among its files.

    echo send contents | mail inria-graphlib@inria.fr

  will return the extended summary.

  As an other example :

    echo send cgrl from Misc | mail inria-graphlib@inria.fr

  will return the Computer Graphics Resource Listing mirrored from
  comp.graphics.

BBSes
-----
  There are many BBSes that store datafiles, etc.etc., but a guide to these
  is beyond the scope of this Listing (and the resources of the author!)
  If you can point to me Internet- or mail- accessible BBSes that carry
  interesting stuff, send me info!

  Studio Amiga is a 3D modelling and ray tracing specific BBS, (817) 467-3658.
  24 hours, 105 Meg online.
--
From Jeff Walkup <pwappy@well.sf.ca.us>:
  "The Castle" 415/355-2396 (14.4K/v.32bis/v.42/v.42bis/MNP)
  (In Pacifica, dang close to San Francisco, California, USA)
  The new-user password is: "TAO".
  
  [J]oin base #2; The Castle G/FX, Anim, Video, 3D S.I.G., of which
  I am the SIG-Op, "Lazerus".
--
  Bob Lindabury operates a BBS (see above the entry for "The Graphics BBS")
--
'You Can Call Me Ray' ray tracing related BBS in Chicago suburbs (708-358-5611)
 or (708-358-8721)
--
  Digital Pixel (Sysop: Mark Ng <mcng@descartes.waterloo.edu>) is based at
  Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
 
  Phone : (416) 298 1487
  Storage space: 330 megs
  Modem type:  14.4k baud,16.8k (Zyxel) , v32bis ,v32, mnp 5

  Access Fee: none.. (free)
  System supported : DOS, OS/2, Amiga, Mac.  
  Netmail:     Currently no echo mail.
  Topics:      Raytracing, Fractals, Graphics programming, CAD, Any Comp.
               Graphics related  

--
From: David Tiberio <dtiberio@ic.sunysb.edu>

  Amiga Graphics BBS (516) 473-6351 in Long Island, New York,
  running 24 hours at 14.4k v.32bis, with 157 megs on line.
  We also subscribe to 9 mailing lists, of which 5 originate
  from our BBS, with 3 more to be added soon. These include:

  Lightwave, Imagine, Real 3D (ray tracing)

  Database files include:
  Imagine 3D objects, 3D renderings, scalable fonts, music
  modules, sound samples, demos, animations, utilities,
  text databases, and pending Lightwave 3D objects.
--
The Graphics Alternative

 The Graphics Alternative is in El Cerrito, CA., running 24 hours a
 day at 14.4k HST/v.32bis, with 642MB online and a 1300+ user base.
 TGA runs two nodes, node 1 (510) 524-2780 is for public access and
 includes a free 90 day trial subscription.  TGA is the West Coast
 Host for PCGnet, The Profesional CAD and Graphics Network, supporting
 nodes across the Continental U.S., Alaska, New Zealand, Australia,
 France and the UK.
 
 TGA's file database includes MS-DOS executables for POV, Vivid,
 RTrace, Rayshade, Polyray, and others.  TGA also has numerous
 graphics utilities, viewers, and conversion utilities.  Registered
 Vivid users can also download the latest Vivid aeta code from a
 special Vivid conference.

--
From: Scott Bethke <sbathkey@access.digex.com>

The Intersection BBS, 410-250-7149.

  This BBS Is dedicated to supporting 3D Animators.The system is provided
  FREE OF CHARGE, and is NOT Commercialized in ANYWAY.
  Users are given FULL Access on the first call.

Features: Usenet NEWS & Internet Mail, Fidonet Echo's & Netmail,
	200 Megs online, V.32bis/V.42bis Modem.

Platforms of interest: Amiga & The VideoToaster, Macintosh, Ms-Dos,
	Unix Workstations (Sun, SGI, etc), Atari-ST.
--
From: Alfonso Hermida <afanh@robots.gsfc.nasa.gov>:

 Pi Square BBS (301)725-9080 in Maryland. It supports raytracers such as POV
 and VIVID. The BBS runs off a 486/33Mhz, 100Megs hard drive and CD ROM.
 Now it runs on 1200-2400bps (this will change soon)

 Topics: graphics programming, animation,raytracing,programming (general)
--
From: Lynn Falkow <ROXXIE@delphi.com>:

  Vertech Design's GRAPHIC CONNECTION. (503) 591-8412 in Portland, Oregon.
  V.32/V.42bis.

  The BBS, aside from carrying typical BBS services like message bases
  ( all topic specific ) and files ( CAD and graphics related -- hundreds
  of megabytes ), also offers material texture files that are full color,
  seamlessly tiling, photo-realistic images.  There are samples available
  to first time callers.  The BBS is a subscription system although callers
  have 2 hours before they must subscribe, and there are several subscription
  rates available.   People interested in materials can subscribe to the
  library in addition to a basic subscription rate, and can use their
  purchased time to download whichever materials they wish.

5. Ray-tracing/graphics-related mailing lists
=============================================

Imagine
-------
  Modeling and animation system for the Amiga:
  send subscription requests to Imagine-request@email.sp.paramax.com
  send material to Imagine@email.sp.paramax.com
  (Dave Wickard has substituted Steve Worley in the maintenance of
  the mailing list) - PLEASE note that the unisys.com address is
  NO longer valid!!!

Lightwave
---------
  (for the Amiga. It's part of Newtek's Video Toaster):
  send subscription requests to lightwave-request@bobsbox.rent.com
  send material to lightwave@bobsbox.rent.com
  (Bob Lindabury)

Toaster
-------
  send subscription requests to listserv@karazm.math.uh.edu with a *body* of:
     subscribe toaster-list

Real 3D
-------
  Another modeling and animation system for the Amiga:
  To subscribe, send a mail containing the body

  subscribe real3d-l <Your full name>

  to listserv@gu.uwa.edu.au

Rayshade
--------
  send subscription requests to rayshade-request@cs.princeton.edu
  send material to rayshade-users@cs.princeton.edu
  (Craig Kolb)

Alladin 4D for the Amiga
  send subscription requests to subscribe@xamiga.linet.org

  and in the body of the message write

  #Alladin 4D username@domain

Radiance
--------
  Greg Ward, the author, sends to registered (via e-mail) users digests of
  his correspodence with them, notes about fixes, updates, etc.
  His address is: gjward@lbl.gov

REND386
-------
  send subscription requests to rend386-request@sunee.waterloo.edu
  send material to rend386@sunee.waterloo.edu

PoV ray / DKB raytracers

  subscribe dkb-l <Your full name>

  to listserv@trearn.bitnet

  send material to dkb-l@trearn.bitnet

Mailing List for Massively Parallel Rendering
  send subscription requests to mp-render-request@icase.edu
  send material to mp-render@icase.edu

6. 3D graphics editors

a. Public domain, free and shareware systems
============================================

VISION-3D
---------
  Mac-based program written by Paul D. Bourke (pdbourke@ccu1.aukland.ac.nz).
  The program can be used to generate models directly in the RayShade
  and Radiance file formats (polygons only).
  It's shareware and listed on the FTP list.

BRL
---
  A solid modeling system for most environments -- including SGI and X11.
  It has CSG and NURBS, plus support for Non-Manifold Geometry
  [Whatever it is].

  You can get it *free* via FTP by signing and returning the relevant license,
  found on ftp.brl.mil. Uses ray-tracing for engineering analyses.

  Contact:

  Ms. Carla Moyer
  (410)-273-7794 tel.
  (410)-272-6763 FAX
  cad-dist@brl.mil E-mail

  Snail mail:

  BRL-CAD Distribution
  SURVIAC Aberdeen Satellite Office 1003
  Old Philadelphia Road,
  Suite 103 Aberdeen
  MD  21001  USA

IRIT
----
  A constructive solid geometry (CSG) modeling program for PC and X11.
  Includes freeform surface support. Free - see FTP list for where to
  find it.

SurfModel
---------
  A solid modeling program for PC written in Turbo Pascal 6.0 by
  Ken Van Camp. Available from SIMTEL, pd1:<msdos.srfmodl> directory.

NOODLES
-------
   From CMU, namely Fritz Printz and Levent Gursoz (elg@styx.edrc.cmu.edu).
   It's based on Non Manifold Topology.
   Ask them for more info, I don't know if they give it away.

XYZ2
----
  XYZ2 is an interactive 3-D editor/builder written by Dale P. Stocker to
  create objects for the SurfaceModel, Automove, and DKB raytracer packages.
  XYZ2 is free and can be found, for example, in SIMTEL20 as
  <MSDOS.SURFMODL>XYZ21.ZIP (DOS only??)

3DMOD
-----
  It's an MSDOS program. Check at barnacle.erc.clarkson.edu [128.153.28.12],
  /pub/msdos/graphics/3dmod.* . Undocumented file format :-(
  3DMOD is (C) 1991 by Micah Silverman, 25 Pierrepoint Ave., Postdam,
  New York 13676, tel. 315-265-7140

NORTHCAD
--------
  Shareware, <MSDOS.CAD>NCAD3D42.ZIP in SIMTEL20. Undocumented file format :-(

Vertex
------
  (Amiga)
  Shareware, send $40 US (check or money order) to:

  The Art Machine, 4189 Nickolas
  Sterling Heights, MI  48310
  USA

  In addition to the now standard file formats, including Lightwave,
  Imagine, Sculpt, Turbo Silver, GEO and Wavefront, this release offers
  3D Professional and RayShade support. (Rayshade is supported only by
  the primitive "triangle", but you can easily include this output in
  your RayShade scripts)

  The latest demo, version 1.62, is available on Fred Fish #727.

  For more information, contact the author, Alex Deburie, at:

  ad99s461@sycom.mi.org, Phone: (313) 939-2513
  
ICoons
------
  (Amiga)
  It's a spline based object modeller ("ICoons" = Interactive 
  COONS path editor) in amiga.physik.unizh.ch (gfx/3d/ICoons1.0.lzh).
  It's free (under the GNU Licence) and requires FPU.

  The program has a look&feel which is a cross between Journeyman and
  Imagine, and it generates objects in TTDDD format.

  It is possible to load Journeyman objects into ICoons, so the program
  can be used to convert JMan objects to Imagine format.

  Author: Helge E. Rasmussen <her@compel.dk>
  PHONE + 45 36 72 33 00, FAX   + 45 36 72 43 00

[ It's also on Fred Fish disk series n.775 - nfotis ]

ProtoCAD 3D
 Ver 1.1 from Trius (shareware?)

 It's at wsmr-simtel20.army.mil and oak.oakland.edu as PCAD3D.ZIP (for PCs)

 It has this menu layout:

         FILE       File handling (Load, Save, Import, Xport...)
         DRAW       Draw 2D objects (Line, Circle, Box...)
         3D         Draw 3D objects (Mesh, Sphere, Block...)
         EDIT       Editing features (Copy, Move ...)
         SURFACE    Modify objects (Revolve, Xtrude, Sweep...)
         IMAGE      Image zooming features (Update, Window, Half...)
         OPTION     Global defaults (Grid, Toggles, Axis...)
         PLOT       Print drawing/picture (Go, Image...)
         RENDER     Shade objects (Frame, Lighting, Tune...)
         LAYER      Layer options (Select active layer, set Colors...)

+Sculptura
+---------
+  Runs under Windows 3.1, and outputs PoV files. A demo can be found
+  on wuarchive.wustl.edu in mirrors/win3/demo/demo3d.zip
+
+  Author: Michael Gibson <gibsonm@stein.u.washington.edu>

b. Commercial systems

Alpha_1
-------
  A spline-based modeling program written in University of Utah.
  Features: splines up to trimmed NURBS; support for boolean operations;
    sweeps, bending, warping, flattening etc.; groups of objects, and
    transformations; extensible object types.
  Applications include: NC machining, Animation utilities,
    Dimensioning, FEM analysis, etc.
  Rendering subsystem, with support for animations.
  Support the following platforms: HP 300 and 800's (X11R4, HP-UX 6.5),
    SGI 4D or PI machines (X11R4 and GL, IRIX 3.3.1), Sun SparcStation
    (X11R4, SunOS 4.1.1).
 
  Licensing and distribution is handled by EGS:
    Glenn McMinn, President
    Engineering Geometry Systems
    275 East South Temple, Suite 305
    Salt Lake City, UT  84111
    (801) 575-6021
    mcminn@cs.utah.edu

 [ Educational pricing ]
  The charge is $675 per platform.  You may run the system on as many
  different workstations of that type as you wish.  For each platform
  there is also a $250 licensing fee for Portable Standard Lisp (PSL)
  which is bundled with the system.  You need to obtain an additional
  license from the University of Utah for PSL from the following address:
    Professor Robert Kessler
    Computer Science Department
    University of Utah
    Salt Lake City, Utah 84112

  [ EGS can handle the licensing of PSL for U.S. institutions for a
    300 $USD nominal fee -- nfotis ]

VERTIGO
-------

  They have an Educational Institution Program. The package is used in
  the industrial design, architectural, scientific visualization,
  educational, broadcast, imaging and post production fields.

  They'll [quoting from a letter sent to me -- nfotis ] "donate fully
  configured Vertigo 3D Graphics Software worth over $29,000USD per
  package to qualified educational institutions for licencing on any
  number of Silicon Graphics Personal IRIS or POWER Series Workstations.
  If you use an IRIS Indigo station, we will also licence our Vertigo
  Revolution Software (worth $12,000USD).

  If you are interested in participating in this program please send a
  letter by mail or fax (604/684-2108) on your institution's letterhead
  briefly outlining your potential uses for Vertigo together with the
  following information: 1. UNIX version 2. Model and number of SGI
  systems 3. Peripheral devices 4. Third Party Software.

  Participants will be asked to contribute $750USD per institution to cover
  costs of the manual, administration, and shipping.

  We recommend that Vertigo users subscribe to our technical support
  services. For an annual fee you will receive: technical assistance
  on our support hotline, bug fixes, software upgrades and manual updates.
  For educational institution we will waive the $750 administration fee
  if support is purchased.

  The annual support fee is $2,500 plus the following cost for additional
  machines:

  Number of machines:		2-20		20+
  Additional cost per machine:	$700		$600 "

[ There's also a 5-day training program - nfotis]

Contact:
  Vertigo Technology INC
  Suite 1010
  1030 West Georgia St.
  VANCOUVER, BC
  CANADA, V6E 2Y3

  Phone: 604/684-2113
  Fax:   604/684-2108

[ Does anyone know of such offers from TDI, Alias, Softimage, Wavefront,
  etc.??? this would be a VERY interesting part!!  -- nfotis ]

PADL-2
------
[ Basically, it's a Solid Modeling Kernel in top of which you build your
  application(s)]

  Available by license from
    Cornell Programmable Automation
    Cornell University
    106 Engineering and Theory Center
    Ithaca, NY 14853

  License fees are very low for educational institutions and gov't agencies.
  Internal commercial licenses and re-dissemination licenses are available.
  For an information packet, write to the above address, or send your
  address to:   marisa@cpa.tn.cornell.edu (Richard Marisa)

ACIS
----
  From Spatial Technology. It's a Solid Modelling kernel callable from C.
  Heard that many universities got free copies from the company.
  The person to contact regarding ACIS in academic institutions is

    Scott Owens, e-mail: sdo@spatial.com

  And their address is:

  Spatial Technology, Inc.
  2425 55th St., Bldg. A
  Boulder, CO 80301-5704
  Phone: (303) 449-0649, Fax: (303) 449-0926

MOVIE-BYU / CQUEL.BYU
  Basically [in my understanding], this is a FEM pre- and post-proccessor
  system. It's fairly old today, but it still serves some people in
  Mech. Eng. Depts.
  Now it's superseded from CQUEL.BYU (pronounced "sequel"). That's a
  complete modelling, animation and visualization package. Runs in the usual
  workstation environments (SUN, DEC, HP, SGI, IBM RS6000, and others)
  You can get a demo version (30-days trial period) either by sending $20
  USD in their address or a blank tape. It costs 1,500 for a full run-time
  licence.

  Contact:

  Engineering Computer Graphics Lab
  368 Clyde Building, Brigham Young Univ.
  Provo, UT 84602
  Phone: 801-378-2812
  E-mail: cquel@byu.edu

twixt
-----
  Soon to add stuff about it... If I get a reply to my FAX

VOXBLAST
--------
  It's a volume renderer marketed by:
  Vaytek Inc. (Fairfield, Iowa phone: 515-472-2227) , running on PCs
  with 386+FPU at least.  Call Vaytek for more info.

VoxelBox
--------
  A 3D Volume renderer for Windows. Features include direct
  ray-traced volume rendering, color and alpha mapping,
  gradient lighting, animation, reflections and shadows.

  Runs on a PC(386 or higher) with at least an 8 bit video card(SVGA is fine)
  under Windows 3.x. It costs $495.

  Contact:

  Jaguar Software Inc.
  573 Main St., Suite 9B
  Winchester, MA 01890
  (617) 729-3659
  jwp@world.std.com (john w poduska)

NFF
---
  Neutral file format , by Eric Haines. Very simple, there are some
  procedural database generators in the SPD package, and many objects
  floating in various FTP sites. There's also a previewer written in
  HP Starbase from E.Haines. Also there's one written in VOGLE, so you can
  use any of the devices VOGLE can output on.
  (Check in sites carrying VOGLE, like gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au)

OFF
---
  Object file format, from DEC's Randy Rost (rost@kpc.com).
[ The object archive server seems to be mothballed. In a future version,
 I'll remove the ref. to it -- nfotis ]

  Available also through their mail server. To obtain help about using this
  service, send a message with a "Subject:" line containing only the word
  "help" and a null message body to: object-archive-server@decwrl.dec.com.
  [For FTP places to get it, see in the relevant place]. There's an OFF
  previewer for SGI 4D machines, called off-preview in
  godzilla.cgl.rmit.oz.au . There are previewers for xview and sunview,
  also on gondwana.

TDDD
----
It's a library of 3D objects with translators to/from OFF, NFF,
Rayshade, Imagine or vort objects.
Edited copy of the announcement follows (from Raytracing News, V4,#3):

  New Library of 3D Objects Available via FTP, by Steve Worley
  (worley@cup.portal.com)

  I have assembled a set of over 150 3D objects in a binary format
  called TDDD. These objects range from human figures to airplanes,
  from semi-trucks to lampposts.  These objects are all freely
  distributable, and most have READMEs that describe them.

  In order to convert these objects to a human-readable format, a file
  with the specification of TDDD is included in the directory with the
  objects. There is also a shareware system called TTDDDLIB (officially
  on hubcap.clemson.edu) that will convert (ala PBM+) to/from various
  object formats : Imagine TTDDD (extension of TDDD?), OFF, NFF,
  Rayshade 4.0, or vort. Source included for Amiga/Unix as executables
  for the Amiga. Also outputs Framemaker MIF files and isometric views
  in Postscript.

P3D
---
  From Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center. The P3D uses lisp with slight
  extensions to store three-dimensional models. A simple lisp
  interpreter is included with the P3D release, so there is no need to
  have access to any vendor's lisp to run this software.

  The mouse-driven user interfaces for Motif, Open Look, and Silicon
  Graphics GL, and the DrawP3D subroutine library for generating P3D
  without ever looking at the underlying Lisp.

  The P3D software currently supports nine renderers.  They are:
  Painter - Painter's Algorithm, Dore, Silicon Graphics Inc. GL language,
  Generic Phigs, Sun Phigs+, DEC Phigs+, Rayshade, ART ray tracer (from
  VORT package) and Pixar RenderMan.

  The code is available via anonymous FTP from the machines
  ftp.psc.edu, directory pub/p3d, and nic.funet.fi, directory
  pub/graphics/programs/p3d.

RenderMan
---------
  Pixar's RenderMan is not free - call Pixar for details.

a. EEC's ESPRIT project 322 CAD*I (CAD Interfaces) has developed a
  neutral file format for transfer of CAD data (curves, surfaces, and
  solid models between CAD systems and from CAD to CAA (Computer Aided
  Analysis) an CAM (Computer Aided Manufacturing)

b. IGES [v. 5.1 now] tries to define a standard to tranfer solid
  models - Brep and CSG. The current standard number is ANSI Y14.26M-1987
  For documentation, you might want to contact Nancy Flower at
  NCGA Technical Services and Standards, 1-800-225-6242 ext. 325
  and the cost is $100.
  This standard is not available in electronic format.

c. PDES/STEP : This slowly emerging standard tries to encompass not only
  the geometrical information, but also for things like FEM, etc.
  The main bodies besides this standard are NIST and DARPA. You can get
  more information about PDES by sending mail to nptserver@cme.nist.gov
  and putting the line
	send index
  in the body (NOT the Subject:) area of the message.

  The people at Rutherford Appleton Lab.  are also working
  on STEP tools: they have an EXPRESS compiler and an Exchange file parser,
  both available in source form (and for free) for research purposes.
  Soon they will also have an EXPRESS-based database system.

  For the tools contact Mike Mead, Phone: +44 (0235) 44 6710 (FAX: x 5893),
  e-mail: mm@inf.rl.ac.uk or {...!}mcsun!uknet!rlinf!mm or
          mm%inf.rl.ac.uk@NSFnet-relay.ac.uk

End of Part 1 of the Resource Listing

Walter-

I tried several times in the past to communicate with you and Susan, but
you ignored me, and I don't honestly believe my letters were mean.  Rather
I thought they were thoughtful and compassionate, but I see now what I should
have seen then.  Call me naive.

I give up on this group.  As my Lord advised, that if you are unwelcome in
a city then brush the dust of your feet and go on.

If anyone cares about the topic they write to me direct, if not, well,
may God bless you as well.

Hi, netters

I am looking for source code that can reads the ascii file
or bitmap file and produced the thinned image.
For example, to preprocess the character image I want to
apply thinning algorithm.

Would you mind posting the responses you get?
I am also interested, and there may be others.

Thanks,

Where does the shadow come from?  There's nothing close enough to block
sunlight from hitting them.  I wouldn't expect there to be anything block
our view of them either.  What am I missing?

Hello,

	I just bought a copy.  I can't disagree that it is a very good
book.  But unfortunately I was looking for the same graphics feature
described in this book but _NOT_ in 640x480x16 or 320x200x256 mode. It
is easy to accomodate all the pixel "descriptor" (or color attributes)
in those modes into A0000-AFFFFF, but not in 640x480x256(which is what
I am interested in).  I haven't finish the book but I affraid the
author didn't talk much about this mode(or other SVGA modes).  If
anyone out there know any good book dealing with fast SVGA graphics
manupulation(scrolling, repainting, all other good stuff..) please
send me mail.  Programming guide to SVGA card is also welcome.

Hello,
I purchased my new 486 with a NoName graphics card installed which is obviously 
Speedstar 24 compatible. Its name is "VGA 4000 TrueColor".
It is accompanied with some drivers and the utilities VMODE, XMODE and
at least one more MODE, as well as some drivers for Lotus, Windows, etc.
Only one of the drivers is told to provide the TrueColor mode, namely
the Windows 3.1 driver.
Nowhere else, except in the ad, is any pointer to the TrueColor mode.
Some articles in this group about the Speedstar 24 and some other facts
made me believe that my card is compatible to that one.

Does anybody out there know how this mode can be adjusted? How can I write
a driver which allows me to have 16.7 millions of colors with a resolution
of 640 x 480 with 45 Hz interlaced ?

	This posts contains too many fallacies to respond too.

	1) The abolishment of divinity requires the elimination of 
freewill. 

	You have not shown this. You have not even attempted to. However,
the existance of an Omniscience being does eliminate freewill in mortals.*

	* Posted over five months ago. No one has been able to refute it, 
nor give any reasonable reasons against it.

--

[Excellent discussion of DC-X landing techniques by Henry deleted]

The DC-X will not take of horizontally.  It takes of vertically. 

For several reasons.  Vertical landings don't require miles of runway and limit
noise pollution.  They don't require wheels or wings.  Just turn on the engines
and touch down.  Of course, as Henry pointed out, vetical landings aren't quite
that simple.

Well, to be blunt, yes.  But at least you're learning.

The Soyuz vehicles use parachutes for the descent and then fire small rockets
just before they hit the ground.  Parachutes are, however, not especially
practical if you want to reuse something without much effort.  The landings
are also not very comfortable.  However, in the words of Georgy Grechko,
"I prefer to have bruises, not to sink."

If not for the lack of extraneously capitalized words, I'd swear that
McElwaine had changed his name and moved to Cal Poly.  I also find the
choice of newsgroups 'interesting'.  Perhaps someone should tell this
guy that 'sci.astro' doesn't stand for 'astrology'?

It's truly frightening that posts like this are originating at what
are ostensibly centers of higher learning in this country.  Small
wonder that the rest of the world thinks we're all nuts and that we
have the problems that we do.

[In case you haven't gotten it yet, David, I don't think this was
quite appropriate for a posting to 'sci' groups.]

-- 

Yes I fully agree with that, but is it "I don't believe gods exist", or
"I believe no gods exist"? As MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka)
pointed out, it all hinges on what you take the word "believe" to mean.

Unfortunately this is bound up in the definitions of strong and weak
atheism, at least according to the FAQ:

# Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God.
# Some atheists go further, and believe that God does not exist.  The former is
# often referred to as the "weak atheist" position, and the latter as "strong
# atheism".
# 
# It is important to note the difference between these two positions.  "Weak
# atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God.  "Strong
# atheism" is a positive belief that God does not exist.  Please do not
# fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists".

(From mathew's "An Introduction to Atheism" version 1.2 last modified 5-Apr-93)

Should the FAQ be clarified to try to pin down this notion of "belief"?
Can it?

Yeah, of course... The term 'mach banding' was not the correct one, it should've
been 'color quantization effect'. Although a bad color quantization effect could
result in some visible mach-bands on a picture that was smooth before it was
quantizised.

Archive-name: atheism/overview
Alt-atheism-archive-name: overview
Version: 1.2

                                   Overview

Welcome to alt.atheism and alt.atheism.moderated.

This is the first in a series of regular postings aimed at new readers of the
newsgroups.

Many groups of a 'controversial' nature have noticed that new readers often
come up with the same questions, mis-statements or misconceptions and post
them to the net.  In addition, people often request information which has
been posted time and time again.  In order to try and cut down on this, the
alt.atheism groups have a series of five regular postings under the following
titles:

   1.  Alt.Atheism FAQ: Overview for New Readers
   2.  Alt.Atheism FAQ: Introduction to Atheism
   3.  Alt.Atheism FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
   4.  Alt.Atheism FAQ: Constructing a Logical Argument
   5.  Alt.Atheism FAQ: Atheist Resources

This is article number 1.  Please read numbers 2 and 3 before posting.  The
others are entirely optional.

If you are new to Usenet, you may also find it helpful to read the newsgroup
news.announce.newusers.  The articles titled "A Primer on How to Work With
the Usenet Community", "Answers to Frequently Asked Questions about Usenet"
and "Hints on writing style for Usenet" are particularly relevant.  Questions
concerning how news works are best asked in news.newusers.questions.

If you are unable to find any of the articles listed above, see the "Finding
Stuff" section below.

                                   Credits

These files could not have been written without the assistance of the many
readers of alt.atheism and alt.atheism.moderated.  In particular, I'd like to
thank the following people:

kck+@cs.cmu.edu (Karl Kluge)
perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry)
NETOPRWA@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu (Wayne Aiken)
chpetk@gdr.bath.ac.uk (Toby Kelsey)
jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
geoff.arnold@East.Sun.COM (Geoff Arnold)
torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
kmldorf@utdallas.edu (George Kimeldorf)
roe2@quads.uchicago.edu (Greg Roelofs)
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann)
J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson)
dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
mayne@open.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
ajr@bigbird.hri.com (Andy Rosen)
stoesser@ira.uka.de (Achim Stoesser)
bosullvn@unix1.tcd.ie (Bryan O'Sullivan)
lippard@ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
s1b3832@rigel.tamu.edu (S. Baum)
ydobyns@phoenix.princeton.edu (York H. Dobyns)
schroede@sdsc.edu (Wayne Schroeder)
baldwin@csservera.usna.navy.mil (J.D. Baldwin)
D_NIBBY@unhh.unh.edu (Dana Nibby)
dempsey@Kodak.COM (Richard C. Dempsey)
jmunch@hertz,elee.calpoly.edu (John David Munch)
pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
rz@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Richard Zach)
tycchow@math.mit.edu (Tim Chow)
simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale)

...and countless others I've forgotten.

These articles are free.  Truly free.  You may copy them and distribute them
to anyone you wish.  However, please send any changes or corrections to the
author, and please do not re-post copies of the articles to alt.atheism; it
does nobody any good to have multiple versions of the same document floating
around the network.

                                Finding Stuff

All of the FAQ files *should* be somewhere on your news system.  Here are
some suggestions on what to do if you can't find them:

1. Check the newsgroup alt.atheism.  Look for subject lines starting with
   "Alt.Atheism FAQ:".

2. Check the newsgroup news.answers for the same subject lines.

   If you don't find anything in steps 1 or 2, your news system isn't set up
   correctly, and you may wish to tell your system administrator about the
   problem.

3. If you have anonymous FTP access, connect to rtfm.mit.edu [18.172.1.27].
   Go to the directory /pub/usenet/alt.atheism, and you'll find the latest
   versions of the FAQ files there.

   FTP is a a way of copying files between networked computers.  If you
   need help in using or getting started with FTP, send e-mail to
   mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with

      send usenet/news.answers/ftp-list/faq

   in the body.

4. There are other sites which also carry news.answers postings.  The article
   "Introduction to the news.answers newsgroup" carries a list of these
   sites; the article is posted regularly to news.answers.

5. If you don't have FTP, send mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu
   consisting of the following lines:

      send usenet/news.answers/finding-sources
      send usenet/alt.atheism/faq
      send usenet/alt.atheism/introduction
      send usenet/alt.atheism/logic
      send usenet/alt.atheism/resources

5. (Penultimate resort)  Send mail to mail-server@mantis.co.uk consisting of
   the following lines:

      send atheism/faq/faq.txt
      send atheism/faq/logic.txt
      send atheism/faq/intro.txt
      send atheism/faq/resource.txt

   and our poor overworked modems will try and send you a copy of the files.
   There's other stuff, too; interesting commands to try are "help" and
   "send atheism/index".

6. (Last resort)  Mail mathew@mantis.co.uk, or post an article to the
   newsgroup asking how you can get the FAQ files.  You should only do this
   if you've tried the above methods and they've failed; it's not nice to
   clutter the newsgroup or people's mailboxes with requests for files.
   it's better than posting without reading the FAQ, though!  For instance,
   people whose email addresses get mangled in transit and who don't have 
   FTP will probably need assistance obtaining the FAQ files.

The traditions of the church hold that all the "apostles" (meaning the 11
surviving disciples, Matthias, Barnabas and Paul) were martyred, except for
John.  "Tradition" should be understood to read "early church writings other
than the bible and heteroorthodox scriptures".

:Just a bit off, Phil.  We don't reprocess nuclear fuel because what
:you get from the reprocessing plant is bomb-grade plutonium.  It is
:also cheaper, given current prices of things, to simply fabricate new
:fuel rods rather than reprocess the old ones, creating potentially
:dangerous materials (from a national security point of view) and then
:fabricate that back into fuel rods.

Fabricating with reprocessed plutonium may result in something that may go
kind of boom, but its hardly decent bomb grade plutonium.  If you want bomb
grade plutonium use a research reactor, not a power reactor.  But if you want
a bomb, don't use plutonium, use uranium.

Contact Signaware Corp
800-4583820
800 6376564

-------------------------------- Original Memo --------------------------------
BCC:     Vincent Wall                   From:      Imaging Club
Subject: Signature verification  ?      Date Sent: 05/04/93

sci.image.processing
From: yyqi@ece.arizona.edu (Yingyong Qi)
Subject: Signature Image Database
Organization: U of Arizona Electrical and Computer Engineering

Hi, All:

Could someone tell me if there is a database of handwriting signature
images available for evaluating signature verification systems.

Thanks.

Everbody has been defining envelope.
Why was the world "envelope" chosen, rather than say "shell", 
or "boundary".  In analogy with the envelopes of airships perhaps?

Actually, "shell" might be good.  Push the shell too hard and
it (the aircraft?) breaks. 

I have a Paradise SVGA with 1Mb, the 90c030 chip (1D). The docs say that
I can display the following modes : 640x480x32k colours and 800x600x32k cols
if I have the RAMDAC HiColor Chip. I have checked the board and I do have
such a chip. Now, the problem is that I can't get this mode to work !
Graphics Workshop 6.1 claims that it can display 24 bit images dithered
down to 15 bit colour with my board, but it doesn't work. I have tried
writing some assembler code to get the modes working and I have found out
that each pixel is addressed by a word ( 16 bit ), but only the lower 8 bits
are considered ( this happens in 800x600 mode, the 640x480 mode refuses to
work i.e. remains in text mode ).
Could someone please help me.

The company was probably "Public Missiles, Inc" of Michigan.

Yup.

Nope, it's not illegal. It is, however, closely regulated. In order to 
purchase and use the big rocket motors required, it is necessary to be
one of the following:
a) An employee of a government agency.
b) An employee or student at a university doing research involving rockets.
c) A member or representative of an educational organization involved in
research or other uses of rockets. There are two such organizations: 
The Tripoli Rocketry Association and the National Association of Rocketry.
Members of either organization must demonstrate proficiency in construction
and flight before they are allowed to purchase large motors on their own.

The FAA will issue a waiver of its regulations, upon request, to any 
organization which can persuade them it has taken adequate precautions 
to avoid conflicts with aircraft. The usual stipulations are:
- Only operation up to a specified ceiling is allowed. Depending on the
location, this ceiling may be from 5000 to 50000 feet AGL. 
- The operator of the rocket is responsible for avoiding any aircraft
within the operating radius around the launch site.
- Flight into clouds or beyond visual range in haze is expressly prohibited.
- The FAA will provide a NOTAM informing other users of the airspace that
unmanned rocket operations are taking place at the specified place and time.

Most of the launches that are held (and there are dozens of them every year)
are held in areas where air traffic is relatively light, such as over the
western deserts (the Black Rock Desert north of Reno is particularly popular
since it is 25 x 150 miles of *nothing to hit* on the ground).

The two rocketry associations test and approve motors for their members'
use, to insure safety. Depending on motor size, the launcher setback is
from 50 to 500 or more feet. 

By the way, rockets under 1 lb and powered by an "F" motor are exempt from
most Federal regulations on unmanned rockets anyway. See FAR 101, Subpart
C, for details.

As for recovery...although the higher altitude rockets can reach up to
50,000 feet, most of them only get to 2,000 to 5,000 feet. The typical
rocket is 2 to 6 inches in diameter, and carries a 3 to 6 foot parachute,
or multiple parachutes, depending on the payload. Many rockets also carry
either a small transmitter or an audio sounder--particularly at launches
in the eastern US, where there are more obstructions.

Camera, telemetry transmitter, and video payloads are becoming quite common.

Why not? It's a lot of fun...check out the traffic on rec.models.rockets
for information about the model (3 lb and under) and high power (everything
bigger) rocket hobbies. As with all dangerous activities, the key is to
practice safety. I've been flying consumer rockets ranging up to 4-5 lbs
takeoff weight for 27 years, and still have all my extremities intact.

That's another thing. NO EXPLOSIVE WARHEADS OF ANY KIND ARE ALLOWED ON THESE
ROCKETS. NONE! Please forgive me for shouting, but that's one of the biggest
misconceptions people have about our hobby. 

True. But it will not be related to the rocket hobby, unless I get 
hit while crossing a road with a rocket in my hand. 

It is all written in _The_Wholly_Babble:_the_Users_Guide_to_Invisible_
_Pink_Unicorns_.

To be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns, you must read the Babble,
and obey what is written in it.

To obey what is written in the Babble, you must believe that doing so is
the way to be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns.

To believe that obeying what is written in the Babble leads to believing
in invisible pink unicorns, you must, essentially, believe in invisible
pink unicorns.

This bit of circular reasoning begs the question:
What makes obeying different from believing?

Says who? Other than a hear-say god.

You sure don't understand it.

Bill, I hereby award you the Golden Shovel Award for the biggist pile of
bullshit I've seen in a whils. I'm afraid there's not a bit of religion in
macroevolution, and you've made a rather grand statement that Science can
not explain origins; to a large extent, it already has!

DROPLET VOL 1, No 11, Part 1

A  D R O P L E T

VOL 1, No 11, Part 1

(A TREATISE ON THE MIRACLES OF MUHAMMAD SAW)       
(SAW: PEACE AND BLESSINGS BE UPON HIM)

In His Name (ALLAH) , Be He (ALLAH) Glorified!
There is Nothing But Glorifies His (ALLAH's) Praise.

In The Name Of  Allah, The Compassionate, The Merciful

   "He is who has sent His Messenger with
guidance and the religion of truth  to make it
supreme over all religion:  and sufficient is Allah
as a Witness.  Muhammad is the Messenger of
Allah, and those who are with him are firm
against the unbelievers and merciful among
each other.  You will see them bowing and
prostrating  themselves, seeking Allah's grace
and His pleasure.  Their mark is on their face
the sing of prostrafion; this is their similitude in
the Torah and Indgil." [the Our'an 48:28-29]

   Since the Nineteenth and Thirhy-first Words
concerning the mission of Muhammad (SAW) prove his
prophethood with decisive evidences, we assign the
verification of that subject to those Words.
   As a supplement to them, we will merely show here
in Nineteen Signs, some  of the flashes of that great
truth.

   FIRST SIGN:  The Owner and Master of this universe
does everything with knowledge, disposes every affair
with wisdom, directs everything all-seeingly, treats
everything all-knowingly, and arranges in everything with
His will and wisdom such causes, purposes and uses that
are apparent to us.  Since the One who creates knows,
surely the One who knows will speak, since He will
speak, surely He will speak to those who have
consciousness, thought, and speech.  Since He will speak
to those who have thought, surely He will speak to
humankind, whose make-up and awareness are more
comprehensive of all conscious beings.  Since He will
speak to humankind, surely He will speak to the most
perfect of mankind and those most worthy of address and
highest in morality, and who are qualified to guide
humanity; then He will certainly speak to Muhammad (SAW), 
who, as friend and foe alike testify, is of the highest 
character and morality, and who is obeyed by one fifth
of humanity, to whose spiritual rule half of the globe has
submitted, with the radiance of whose light has been
illumined the future of mankind for thirteen centuries, to
whom the believers, the luminous segment of humanity,
renew their oath of allegiance five times a day, for
whose happiness and peace they pray, for whom they call
down Allah's blessings and bear admiration and love in
their hearts.

   Certainly, He will speak to Muhammad (SAW),
and Indeed He has done so;  He will make him the
Messenger, and Indeed He has done so; He will make
him the guide for the rest of humanity, and Indeed He
has done so.

Archive-name: space/diff

DIFFS SINCE LAST FAQ POSTING (IN POSTING ORDER)

(These are hand-edited context diffs; do not attempt to use them to patch
old copies of the FAQ).

diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.intro
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06400	Thu Apr  1 14:47:22 1993
--- FAQ.intro	Thu Apr  1 14:46:55 1993
***************
*** 101,107 ****
		  NASA Langley (Technical Reports)
		  NASA Spacelink
		  National Space Science Data Center
-		  Space And Planetary Image Facility
		  Space Telescope Science Institute Electronic Info. Service
		  Starcat
		  Astronomical Databases
--- 101,106 ----
*** 130,135 ****
--- 129,135 ----
	      LLNL "great exploration"
	      Lunar Prospector
	      Lunar science and activities
+	      Orbiting Earth satellite histories
	      Spacecraft models
	      Rocket propulsion
	      Spacecraft design

diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.net
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06405	Thu Apr  1 14:47:24 1993
--- FAQ.net	Thu Apr  1 14:46:57 1993
*** 58,63 ****
--- 58,67 ----
      elements are sent out on the list from Dr. Kelso, JSC, and other sources
      as they are released. Email to elements-request@telesoft.com to join.

+     GPS Digest is a moderated list for discussion of the Global Positioning
+     System and other satellite navigation positioning systems. Email to
+     gps-request@esseye.si.com to join.
+
      Space-investors is a list for information relevant to investing in
      space-related companies. Email Vincent Cate (vac@cs.cmu.edu) to join.

*** 223,227 ****
--- 227,241 ----
      1030. If in fact you should should learn of unauthorized access, contact
      NASA personnel.

+     Claims have been made on this news group about fraud and waste. None
+     have ever been substantiated to any significant degree. Readers
+     detecting Fraud, Waste, Abuse, or Mismanagement should contact the NASA
+     Inspector General (24-hours) at 800-424-9183 (can be anonymous) or write
+
+	  NASA
+	  Inspector General
+	  P.O. Box 23089
+	  L'enfant Plaza Station
+	  Washington DC 20024

  NEXT: FAQ #3/15 - Online (and some offline) sources of images, data, etc.

diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.data
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06410	Thu Apr  1 14:47:26 1993
--- FAQ.data	Thu Apr  1 14:46:54 1993
*** 216,237 ****
	  Telephone: (301) 286-6695

	  Email address:   request@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov
-
-
-     SPACE AND PLANETARY IMAGE FACILITY
-
-     Available 24 hours a day via anonymous FTP from pioneer.unm.edu. Has
-     approximately 150 CD-ROM's full of imagery, raw, and tabular data. To
-     start, get the file:
-
-	  pioneer.unm.edu:pub/info/beginner-info
-
-     This will hopefully give you all of the information you need to get data
-     from their machine. beginner-info has been translated to other
-     languages, you should look inside pub/info for the particular language
-     that meets your needs.
-
-     Contact help@pioneer.unm.edu.

      SPACE TELESCOPE SCIENCE INSTITUTE ELECTRONIC INFORMATION SERVICE
--- 216,221 ----

diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.math
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06415	Thu Apr  1 14:47:28 1993
--- FAQ.math	Thu Apr  1 14:46:56 1993
*** 60,65 ****
--- 60,71 ----
	  Gives series to compute positions accurate to 1 arc minute for a
	  period + or - 300 years from now. Pluto is included but stated to
	  have an accuracy of only about 15 arc minutes.
+
+     _Multiyear Interactive Computer Almanac_ (MICA), produced by the US
+     Naval Observatory. Valid for years 1990-1999. $55 ($80 outside US).
+     Available for IBM (order #PB93-500163HDV) or Macintosh (order
+     #PB93-500155HDV). From the NTIS sales desk, (703)-487-4650. I believe
+     this is intended to replace the USNO's Interactive Computer Ephemeris.

      _Interactive Computer Ephemeris_ (from the US Naval Observatory)
      distributed on IBM-PC floppy disks, $35 (Willmann-Bell). Covers dates

diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.references
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06420	Thu Apr  1 14:47:30 1993
--- FAQ.references	Thu Apr  1 14:46:59 1993
*** 93,100 ****
      US Naval Observatory
	  202-653-1079 (USNO Bulletin Board via modem)
	  202-653-1507 General
-	  202-653-1545 Nautical Almanac Office (info on the Interactive
-	      Computer Ephemeris)

      Willmann-Bell
      P.O. Box 35025
--- 93,98 ----
*** 138,151 ****
      SDI's SSRT (Single Stage Rocket Technology) project has funded a
      suborbital technology demonstrator called DC-X that should fly in
      mid-1993. Further development towards an operational single-stage to
!     orbit vehicle is uncertain at present; for considerably more detail on
!     the SSRT program, get the document

!	  ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/DeltaClipper

!     by anonymous FTP or through the email server.

      HOW TO NAME A STAR AFTER A PERSON

      Official names are decided by committees of the International
--- 136,151 ----
!     orbit vehicle (called Delta Clipper) is uncertain at present.

!     An collection of pictures and files relating to DC-X is available by
!     anonymous FTP or email server in the directory

!	  bongo.cc.utexas.edu:pub/delta-clipper

+     Chris W. Johnson (chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu) maintains the archive.

+

*** 223,228 ****
--- 223,236 ----
      University Press, 1970. Information about the Lunar Orbiter missions,
      including maps of the coverage of the lunar nearside and farside by
      various Orbiters.
+
+
+     ORBITING EARTH SATELLITE HISTORIES
+
+     A list of Earth orbiting satellites (that are still in orbit) is
+     available by anonymous FTP in:
+
+	  ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/Satellites

      SPACECRAFT MODELS

diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.addresses
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06435	Thu Apr  1 14:47:34 1993
--- FAQ.addresses	Thu Apr  1 14:46:51 1993
*** 75,80 ****
--- 75,85 ----
	  the latter, an SF 171 is useless. Employees are Caltech employees,
	  contractors, and for the most part have similar responsibilities.
	  They offer an alternative to funding after other NASA Centers.
+
+	  A fact sheet and description of JPL is available by anonymous
+	  FTP in
+
+	      ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/JPLDescription

      NASA Johnson Manned Space Center (JSC)
      Houston, TX 77058

diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.new_probes
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06450	Thu Apr  1 14:47:38 1993
--- FAQ.new_probes	Thu Apr  1 14:46:58 1993
*** 8,13 ****
--- 8,19 ----
      team, ISAS/NASDA launch schedules, press kits.

+     ASUKA (ASTRO-D) - ISAS (Japan) X-ray astronomy satellite, launched into
+     Earth orbit on 2/20/93. Equipped with large-area wide-wavelength (1-20
+     Angstrom) X-ray telescope, X-ray CCD cameras, and imaging gas
+     scintillation proportional counters.
+
+
      CASSINI - Saturn orbiter and Titan atmosphere probe. Cassini is a joint
      NASA/ESA project designed to accomplish an exploration of the Saturnian
      system with its Cassini Saturn Orbiter and Huygens Titan Probe. Cassini
*** 98,115 ****

      MAGELLAN - Venus radar mapping mission. Has mapped almost the entire
!     surface at high resolution. Currently (11/92) in mapping cycle 4,
!     collecting a global gravity map.

      MARS OBSERVER - Mars orbiter including 1.5 m/pixel resolution camera.
!     Launched 9/24/92 on a Titan III/TOS booster. MO is currently (3/93) in
      transit to Mars, arriving on 8/24/93. Operations will start 11/93 for
      one martian year (687 days).

!     TOPEX/Poseidon - Joint US/French Earth observing satellite, launched in
!     August 1992 on an Ariane 4 booster. The primary objective of the
      TOPEX/POSEIDON project is to make precise and accurate global
      observations of the sea level for several years, substantially
      increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics. The satellite also
--- 104,121 ----

!     surface at high resolution. Currently (4/93) collecting a global gravity
!     map.

!     Launched 9/25/92 on a Titan III/TOS booster. MO is currently (4/93) in

!     TOPEX/Poseidon - Joint US/French Earth observing satellite, launched
!     8/10/92 on an Ariane 4 booster. The primary objective of the

diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.astronaut
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06465	Thu Apr  1 14:47:43 1993
--- FAQ.astronaut	Thu Apr  1 14:46:52 1993
*** 162,174 ****
      specific standards:

	   Distant visual acuity:
!		20/100 or better uncorrected,
		correctable to 20/20, each eye.

	   Blood pressure:
		140/90 measured in sitting position.

!     3. Height between 60 and 76 inches.

      Pilot Astronaut Candidate:

--- 162,174 ----

!		20/150 or better uncorrected,

!     3. Height between 58.5 and 76 inches.

I think this is a weak argument.  The fact is, there are *two* references to
Jesus in _Antiquities of the Jews_, one of which has unquestionably at least
been altered by Christians.  Origen wrote, in the third century, that
Josephus did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, while the long passage
says the opposite.  There is an Arabic manuscript of _Antiquities of the
Jews_ which contains a version of the passage which is much less gung-ho
for Jesus and may be authentic.
   There is no question that Origen, in the third century, saw a reference
to Jesus in Josephus.  There are no manuscripts of _Antiquities_ which
lack the references.

It is possible that it was fabricated out of whole cloth and inserted, but
I don't think it's very likely--nor do I think there is a consensus in
the scholarly community that this is the case. (I know G.A. Wells takes
this position, but that's because he takes the very small minority view
that Jesus never existed.  And he is a professor of German, not of
biblical history or New Testament or anything directly relevant to
the historicity of Jesus.)

I agree totally with you!  Amen!  You stated it better and in less world 
than I did.

Archive-name: space/mnemonics
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:14 $

ASTRONOMICAL MNEMONICS (This is the last FAQ section posted to sci.astro)

    Gathered from various flurries of mnemonic postings on sci.astro.

    Spectral classification sequence: O B A F G K M R N S

	Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me Right Now, Sweetheart. (a classic)

	O'Dell's Big Astronomical Fiasco Gonna Kill Me Right Now Surely
	Obese Balding Astronomy Found Guilty; Killed Many Reluctant
	    Nonscience Students.
	Octopus Brains, A Favorite Gastronomical Kitchen Menu,
	    Requires No Sauce
	Odd Ball Astronomers Find Generally Kooky Mnemonics
	    Really Nifty Stuff
	Oh Big And Ferocious Gorilla, Kill My Roomate Next Saturday
	Oh Boy, A Flash! Godzilla Kills Mothra! Really Not Surprising!
	Oh Boy, An F Grade Kills Me
	On Bad Afternoons Fermented Grapes Keep Mrs. Richard Nixon Smiling
	On, Backward Astronomer, Forget Geocentricity; Kepler's Motions
	    Reveal Nature's Simplicity
	Our Bad Astronomy Faculty Gets Killed Monday
	Oven Baked Ants, Fried Gently, Kept Moist, Retain Natural Succulence
	Overseas Broadcast: A Flash!  Godzilla kills Mothra!
	    (Rodan Named Successor)
	Overweight Boys and Fat Girls Keep Munching
	Only Bored Astronomers Find Gratification Knowing Mnemonics
	Oh Bloody Astronomy!  F Grades Kill Me

    Order of the planets:

	Sun
	Mercury
	Venus
	Earth (Terra)
	Mars
	(Asteroids)
	Jupiter
	Saturn
	Uranus
	Neptune
	Pluto

	My Very Earnest Mother Just Served Us Nine Pizzas
	Mother Very Thoughtfully Made A Jelly Sandwich Under No Protest
	My Very Erotic Mate Joyfully Satisfies Unusual Needs Passionately
	Men Very Easily Make Jugs Serve Useful Nocturnal Purposes
	Man Very Early Made A Jug Serve Useful Noble Purposes
	My Very Educated Mother Just Showed Us Nine Planets
	My Very Eager Mother Just Showed Us Nine Planets
	My Very Exhausted Mother hAs Just Swept Up a Planetary Nebula
	Most Voters Earn Money Just Showing Up Near Polls
	My Very Educated Mother Just Served Us Nine Pizza-pies
	Many Viscious Elephants Made John, Suzy and Uncle Need Protection
	Solar Mass Very Easily Makes All Jupiter's Satellites Undergo
	    Numerous Perturbations.

	Mein Vater erklaert mir jeden Sonntag unsere niedlichen Planeten
	    (My Father explains to me every Sunday our nine planets)
	Man verachte einen Menschen in seinem Unglueck nie -- Punkt
	    (Never scorn/despise a person in his misfortune/bad luck/misery
		-- period!)

    Colors of the spectrum: Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Indigo Violet
	ROY G. BIV  (pronounce as a man's name)
	Richard Of York Gave Battle In Vain
	Read Out Your Good Book In Verse

    Galilean Satellite of Jupiter: Io Europa Ganymede Callisto
	I Expect God Cries
	I Eat Green Cheese
	I Embarrass Good Christians

	Ich erschrecke all guten Christen
	    (I scare all good Christians)

    Saturnian Satellites
	MET DR THIP
	Miriam's Enchiladas Taste Divine Recently. Tell Her I'm Proud.
	(Mimas, Enceladus, Tethys, Dione, Rhea, Titan, Hyperion,
	    Iapetus, Phoebe)

    Uranian Satellites:
	MAUTO
	Mispronunciations Afflict Uranus Too Often
	My Angel Uriel Takes Opium
	(Miranda, Ariel, Umbriel, Titania, Oberon)

NOTE: the remaining FAQ sections do not appear in sci.astro, as they cover
    material of relevance only to sci.space.

	It depends on what kind of the polygons. 
	Convex - simple, concave - trouble, concave with loop(s)
	inside - big trouble.

	Of cause, you can use the box test to avoid checking
	each edges. According to my experience, there is not
	a simple way to go. The headache stuff is to deal with
	the special cases, for example, the overlapped lines.

Hi, can anyone direct me to map type gifs? 

I am interesting in cartography and would find
these gifs useful.

tia,

I think I can. Largely as a result of efforts by people reading this group
writing letters and making phone calls the following has happened:

1. NASA reprogrammed funds to keep NASP alive in 1991.
2. Efforts to kill DC-X and the SSRT progam where twice twarted
   (Feb. and June of last year).
3. Gouldin kept his job in spite of heavy lobbying against him.

This may not be what Mark was thinking of but it shows that the
readers of sci.space DO have power and influence.

  Allen

   There are several star map programs available.  Your
   job is to choose that you like.  Try anonymous-FTP
   from:

	ftp.funet.fi:pub/astro/pc/stars
			       pc/solar
                               mac
			       amiga
			       atari

Off the top of my head, I might try:

Given: p_1, p_2, p_3, p_4

Find:  p_c (center of sphere determined by p_1, ..., p_4), 
       dist(p_c, p_i) (radius)

p_c is the same distance from our four points, so
dist(p_c,p_1) = dist(p_c,p_2) = dist(p_c,p_3) = dist(p_c,p_4) 

Of course, we can square the whole thing to get rid of square roots:
distsq(p_c,p_1) = distsq(p_c,p_2) = distsq(p_c,p_3) = distsq(p_c,p_4) 

Plug in the variables into the distance formula, simplify, and the 
x^2_c, y^2_c, and z^2_c terms cancel out, leaving you with three 
linearly independent equations and three unknowns (x_c, y_c, z_c).  
Solve using your favorite method.  :)

All the best,

- John :)

Dr. John S. Eickemeyer                 ::     "The Lord God is subtle,
Information Technology Institute      ::::     but malicious He is not."
National Computer Board, Singapore     ::
Email: johne@iti.gov.sg                ::                     - Albert Einstein

: We are interested in purchasing a grayscale printer that offers a good
: resoltuion for grayscale medical images.  Can anybody give me some
: recommendations on these products in the market, in particular, those
: under $5000?

: Thank for the advice.

	We only need to ask the question: what did the founding fathers 
consider cruel and unusual punishment?

	Hanging? Hanging there slowing being strangled would be very 
painful, both physically and psychologicall, I imagine.

	Firing squad ? [ note: not a clean way to die back in those 
days ], etc. 

	All would be considered cruel under your definition.
	All were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers.

--- 

Yes, but... shouldn't size of newsgroup be an issue?  Sorry if this
has been covered before, but comp.grahpics.animation get how much 
traffic per day?  50 articles?  Maybe 70 on an extremely heavy day?
I've been following this group for about four months now, and I don't
recall ever seeing such a flood of posts that a split would be warranted.

Just my 2 cents,

	Unless God admits that he didn't do it....

	=)

---  

: I've been trying to view .tga files created in POVRAY.  I have the Diamond
: SpeedStar 24 Video board (not the _24X_).  So far I can convert them to
: jpeg using cjpeg and view them with CVIEW but that only displays 8 bit color.
..
: Just want to see the darn things in real color...

I have an ATI ultra pro card, and have found that the easiest way to view
true color images is using their windows drivers and something like winjpeg
or photofinish.  

If anyone has a non-windows solution, I'd love to hear it!

I am involve in a Distant Learning project and am in need
of Jpeg and Mpeg encode/decode source and object code.
This is a NOT-FOR PROFIT project that once completed I
hope to release to other educational and institutional
learning centers.
This project requires that TRUE photographic images be sent
over plain telephone lines. In addition if there is a REAL Good
GUI lib with 3D objects and all types of menu classes that can
be use at both end of the transaction (Server and Terminal End)
I would like to hear about it.
 
We recently posted an RFD announcing the OTG (Open Telematic Group)
that will concern itself with the developement of such application
and that it would incorporate NAPLPS, JPEG, MPEG, Voice, IVR, FAX
Sprites, Animation(fli, flc, etc...).
At present only DOS and UNIX environment is being worked on and it
our hope that we can generate enough interest where all the major
platform can be accomodated via a plaform independent API/TOOLKIT/SDK
We are of the mind that it is about time that such project and group
be form to deal with these issues.
We want to setup a repository where these files may be access such as
Simte20 and start putting together a OTG FAQ.
If you have some or any information that in your opinion would be 
of interest to the OTG community and you like to see included in our
first FAQ please send it email to the address below.
 
Thanks in Advance
 
Ed
P.O. box 95901
Atlanta Ga. 30347-0901
(404)985-1198 zyxel 14.4
epimntl@world.std.com 
ed.pimentel@gisatl.fidonet.org

I have to beg to differ on this point, as the batch file I use
to launch cview cd's to the dir where cview resides and then
invokes it.  every time I crash cview, the 0-byte temp file
is found in the root dir of the drive cview is on.

just my $0.13,
cb

You could argue that if you wanted, but I think a more reasonable 
argument would point out the fact that the remembrance feast was
very similar to the Pesach (Passover) meal during Seder, a very
Jewish ritual.
 
The fact that there appears to be an abuse in the early Church of
people eating too much (a very real concern with some Passover meals)
and not treating the meal with respect, shows the simplifying of the
ritual to just bread and wine to be a way of dealing with the
inherent problems of people's human nature, and trying to keep the
essentials of the remembrance aspects.

Hi Noel,

I've made some attempts to write a converter that reads Adobe Type 1 fonts,
triangulates them, bevelizes them and extrudes them to result in a generic
3d object which could be used with PoV f.i.

The problem I'm currently stuck on is that theres no algorithm which
triangulates any arbitrary polygonal shape. Delaunay seems to be limited
to convex hulls. Constrained delaunay may be okay, but I have no code
example of how to do it.

Another way to do the bartman may be

- TGA2POV
- A selfmade variation of this, using heightfields.

  Create a b/w picture (BIG) of the text you need, f.i. using a PostScript
  previewer. Then, use this as a heightfield. If it is white on black,
  the heightfield is exactly the images white parts (it's still open
  on the backside). To close it, mirror it and compound it with the original.

Example:

object {
   union {
      height_field { gif "abp2.gif" }
      height_field { gif "abp2.gif" scale <1 -1 1>}
   }
   texture {
      Glass
   }
   translate <-0.5 0 -0.5>      //center
   rotate <-90 0 0>             // rotate upwards
   scale  <10 5 100>            // scale bigger and thicker
   translate <0 2 0>            // final placement
}

abp2.gif is a GIF of arbitrary size containing "ABP" black on white in
Times-Roman 256 points.

The situation in this regard has changed considerably in recent years.
See the discussion of "high-power rocketry" in the rec.models.rockets
frequently-asked-questions list.

This is not hardware you can walk in off the street and buy; you need
proper certification.  That can be had, mostly through Tripoli (the high-
power analog of the NAR), although the NAR is cautiously moving to extend
the upper boundaries of what it considers proper too.

You need special FAA authorization, but provided you aren't doing it under
one of the LAX runway approaches or something stupid like that, it's not
especially hard to arrange.

As with model rocketry, this sort of hardware is reasonably safe if handled
properly.  Proper handling takes more care, and you need a lot more empty
air to fly in, but it's basically just model rocketry scaled up.  As with
model rocketry, the high-power people use factory-built engines, which
eliminates the major safety hazard of do-it-yourself rocketry.

Update on location!!

Directory should be:
public/virtual-worlds!!
^^^^^^

Sorry! :-)

================ ------------------------------------------------------------
 |||||||| SciP+Fi  ction set in C-Sci\programming environs list by Ian Feldman
 ..........:::::: ---------------------------------------- ---- --------------
 Written by:_____ _Book Title_; publisher'year, pp         v2.7           ISBN
 -----------       =============================== ------- ==== ##############
     John Brunner _Shockwave Rider_; Ray/Ballantine'84 $5_______ 0-345-32431-5
                   "cracking the net to free information for the common good"
      Pat Cadigan _Mindplayers_; ("an absolute must-have" --Bruce Sterling)
      Pat Cadigan _Synners_; Bantam $5; (virtual reality)_______ 0-553-28254-9
 Orson Scott Card _Lost Boys_; Harper Collins'92; (programmer and family     \
                   encounters strange events in North Carolina)
     Denise Danks _Frame Grabber_; St.Martin's, hrdb [GBP]17____ 0-312-08786-1
                   computer-illiterate journalix tracks down murderer via BBS
    Toni Dwiggins _Interrupt_; ("a techno-mystery set in Silicon Valley")
    Michael Frayn _The Tin Men_; Fontana, ("inspired lunacy" but out of print)
    David Gerrold _When HARLIE was One Release 2.0_; Bantam'88__ 0-553-26465-6
   William Gibson _Count Zero_; (computers as gods, part of a trilogy)
   William Gibson _Mona Lisa Overdrive_; (virtual reality)______ 0-553-28174-7
   William Gibson _Burning Chrome_; (cyberpunk short stories)___ 0-441-08934-8
   William Gibson _Neuromancer_; (industrial espionage)_________ 0-441-56959-5
                   (author guilty of inventing the cyberpunk genre)
      James Hogan _The Genesis Machine_; Del Ray'87 $3__________ 0-345-34756-0
      James Hogan _Thrice Upon A Time_; ("time travel for information")
      James Hogan _The Two Faces of Tomorrow_; Del Ray'79_______ 0-345-27517-9
                   ultimate test of AI-OS by letting it run a spacelab -> amok
    Stanislaw Lem _His Master's Voice_; (failed attempt to decode ET-message)
       Tom Maddox _HALO_ ("remarkable SF of robots & artificial intelligence")
 George RR Martin _Nightflyers_; Tor Books'87___________________ 0-8125-4564-8
      R A MacAvoy _Tea with the Black Dragon_; ("mystery around a computer   \
                   fraud situation; computing bits ring true.")
 Vonda N McIntyre _Steelcollar Worker_; in Analog Nov'92; (blue-collar VR)
     Marge Piercy _Body of Glass_; Penguin'92, 584pp; (data piracy++) review \
                   finger "books=Body_of_Glass%danny"@orthanc.cs.su.oz.au
 ---> David Pogue _Hard-Drive_; Diamond'93 $5, 304pp____________ 1-55773-884-X
                   (*programmer dies in accident, leaves no documentation    \
                   behind; software firms fight for market share with virii; \
                   "right out of the pages of MacWorld" --Steve Brock)
   Richard Powers _The Gold Bug Variations_; Morrow '91, (famous molecular   \
                   scientist ponders on the ?why? of love, life in EDP dept.)
      Paul Preuss _Human Error_; (nanotech computer infects brain-damaged kid)
    Thomas J Ryan _The Adolescence of P1_; ACE'79_______________ 0-671-55970-2
                   (runaway AI experiment takes over mainframes, wrecks havoc)
   Bruce Sterling _The Difference Engine_; (with W Gibson) Bantam'91; finger \
                   "books=The_Difference_Engine%danny"@orthanc.cs.su.oz.au
      Cliff Stoll _The Cuckoo's Egg_; (non-fiction but reads like one); review
                   FTP <garbo.uwasa.fi>; /mac/tidbits/1991/tb048_18-Mar-91.etx
     Tom T Thomas _ME_; ("smart computers")
     Vernor Vinge _Across Realtime_; Baen Books_____________ [several titles \
     Vernor Vinge _Tatja Grimm's World_; Baen Books__________ soon available \
     Vernor Vinge _The Witling_; Baen Books___________________ as Millennium \
     Vernor Vinge _Threats and Other Promises_; Baen Books_____ Books in UK]
     Vernor Vinge _True Names & Other Dangers_; Baen Books'87___ 0-671-65363-6
     Vernor Vinge _A Fire Upon The Deep_; Tor Books, 640p, $6___ 0-8125-1528-5
                   ("essentially about the future of the Internet")
      John Varley _Press Enter_; ("Short story, gruesome, but good")
       Ed Yourdon _Silent Witness_; ("Computer crime caper story; gumshoe    \
                   has to explain intricacies of computer OS to girlfriend")
 Herbert W Franke _Das Zentrum der Milchstrasse_; ("the center of the galaxy")
 Herbert W Franke _Letzte Programmierer_; ("'the last programmer';           \
                   I do NOT mean Frank Herbert!")
       Emil Zopfi _Computer Fuer 1001 Nacht_; Limmat Verlag, Switzerland
       Emil Zopfi _Jede Minute Kostet 33 Franken_; (last 4 in German; last 2 \
                   "set in the commercial computing world of the early 70's")
 current version of this list via `finger "scip+fi%danny"@orthanc.cs.su.oz.au'
 compiled 930424; % mail -s "additions/ comments/ updates --->" ianf@random.se
 ================ ============================================= ==============

     Statistical breakdown
 +-- --------------------- SciP+Fiction -----+------------+------------------+
 | # nominations /title    ~~~~~~~~~~~~         /author    # books nominated |
 +-- =========== ----------------------------+ =========== ================= +
 | 5 _The Adolescence of P-1_; Ryan          |    Vinge 10          6 titles |
 | 5 _Neuromancer_; Gibson                   |   Gibson 10          5 titles |
 | 4 _True Names and Other Dangers_; Vinge   |     Ryan  5 _The Adolescence..|
 | 4 _Shockwave Rider_; Brunner              |  Brunner  4 _Shockwave Rider_ |
 | 4 _When H.A.R.L.I.E was One_; Gerrold     |  Gerrold  4 _When H.A.R.L.I.E.|
 | 4 _A Fire Upon The Deep_; Vinge           |    Hogan  3          3 titles |
 | 2 _Threats and Other Promises_; Vinge     |      Lem  3 _Fiasco_HMV_Solar.|
 +-- ----------------------------------------+ ----------- ----------------- +
 | # total nominations: 85; authors: 27; female: 5?6; sent in by: 42 readers |
 +======== ================ ============ ============ =======================+

       Contributions by [unsorted FIFO]:
----------------------------------------
 From: sbrock@teal.csn.org (Steve Brock)
 From: "John Lacey" <johnl@cs.indiana.edu>
 From: malloy@nprdc.navy.mil (Sean Malloy)
 From: thom kevin gillespie <thom@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
 From: Paul Christopher Workman <pw0l+@andrew.cmu.edu>
 From: kellys@code3.code3.com (Kelly Sorensen)
 From: whughes@lonestar.utsa.edu (William W. Hughes)
 From: North_TJ@cc.curtin.edu.au (Tim North)
 From: LORETI@FNAL.FNAL.GOV (Maurizio Loreti)
 From: Stephen Hart <stephenh@cs.mun.ca>
 From: Duane F Marble <dmarble@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
 From: Matthias Neeracher <neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch>
 From: Wolfram Wagner <ww@mpi-sb.mpg.de>
 From: webb@tsavo.HKS.COM (Peter Webb)
 From: setzer@ssd.comm.mot.com (Thomas Setzer)
 From: kevles@acf3.NYU.EDU (Beth Kevles)
 From: dp@world.std.com (Jeff DelPapa)
 From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
 From: hartman@uLogic.com (Richard Hartman)
 From: Vernor Vinge <vinge%saturn@sdsu.edu>
 From: Paul Lebeau <plebeau@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 From: "Lawrence Rounds" <ljr@beach.cis.ufl.edu>
 From: phydeaux@cumc.cornell.edu (David Weingart)
 From: chgs02@vaxa.strath.ac.uk (By learning+courtesy)
 From: Rowan Fairgrove <rowanf@cache.crc.ricoh.com>
 From: peterc@suite.sw.oz.au.sw.oz.au (Peter Chubb,x114,6982322,3982735)
 From: Gara Pruesse <gara@cs.toronto.edu>
 From: russell@alpha3.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Russell Schulz)
 From: ahm@spatula.rent.com (Andreas Meyer)
 From: jon@cs.washington.edu (Jon Jacky)
 From: eugene@nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
 From: "A.M.MAIR" <CHGS02@VAXB.STRATHCLYDE.AC.UK>
 From: mengel@dcdmwm.fnal.gov (Marc Mengel)
 From: Roger Scowen <rss@seg.npl.co.uk>
 From: kevino@clbooks.com (Kevin Oster -- System Administrator)
 From: chavey@cs.wisc.edu (Darrah Chavey)
 From: Vonda McIntyre <mcintyre@cpac.washington.edu>
 From: Bruce Sterling <bruces@well.sf.ca.us>
 From: "Scott Thomas Yabiku" <yabi@midway.uchicago.edu>
 From: Thomas Adshead <uad1212@dircon.co.uk>
 From: Paul Andrews <76050.161@CompuServe.COM>
 ===== ======================================= ---------> MUCHO thanks to all!

Are you making a meta-argument here?  In any case, you are wrong.  
Think of those invisible pink unicorns.

I was responding to the "historical accuracy... of Biblical claims",
of which the existence of Jesus is only one, and one that was not even
mentioned in my post.

Wrong.  That was exactly the issue.  Go back and read the context
included within my post, and you'll see what I mean.

Now that I've done you the kindness of responding to your questions,
please do the same for me.  Answer the Charley Challenges.  Your claim
that they are of the "did not!/ did so!" variety is a dishonest dodge
that I feel certain fools only one person.

: Seems to me Koresh is yet another messenger that got killed
: for the message he carried. (Which says nothing about the 
: character of the messenger.) I reckon we'll have to find out
: the rest the hard way.
: 

: : firmly on the western coast of the Med.  You can bet IUm gonna keep this
: baby

: >My my my, such double standards.  You neglected to give any primary sources
: >for your book,  _Encyclopedia of the Bible_.  Are we to expect that source
: >to be as unbiased as the other sources...  MR. Butler *DID* give at least
: >one source, you have given none.

: REPLY

: It was a JOKE.  The Readers digest _Encyclopedia of the Bible_ was the most
: outrageously bogus *authority* I could dredge from my shelves.
: I was trying to point out that going to some encyclopedia, rather than
:  original or scholarly sources is a BIG MISTAKE in procedure.  I am glad
: to note that Butler and DeCesno are arguing about substance now,
: rather than about arguing.

I guess the joke was on me...  I am so used to seeing bogus stuff
posted here that I assumed that yours was necessarily the same.

What do you mean by omnipotent here?  Do you mean by "omnipotent"
that God should be able to do anything/everything?  This creates
a self-contradictory definition of omnipotence which is effectively
useless.

To be descriptive, omnipotence must mean "being all-powerful" and
not "being able to do anything/everything".

Let me illustrate by analogy.
Suppose the United States were the only nuclear power on earth.  Suppose
further that the US military could not effectively be countered by any
nation or group of nations.  The US has the power to go into any country
at any time for any reason to straighten things out as the leaders of the
US see fit.  The US would be militarily "omnipotent".

But suppose further that the US holds to a doctrine/philosophy of not
interfering in the internal affairs of any nation, such as the current
civil war in the former Yugoslavian states.

Technically (in this scenario) the US would have the power to 
unilaterally go into Yugoslavia and straighten out the mess.  But
effectively the US could not intervene without violating its own policy 
of non-interference.  If the policy of non-interference were held to
strongly enough, then there would never be a question that it would
ever be violated.  Effectively, the US would be limited in what it
could actually do, although it had the power to do "whatever it wanted".
The US would simply "never want to interfere" for such an idea would
be beyond the consideration of its leaders given such an inviolate
non-interference policy.

God is effectively limited in the same sense.  He is all powerful, but
He cannot use His power in a way that would violate the essence of what
He, Himself is.

I hope this helps to clear up some of the misunderstanding concerning
omnipotence.

Regards,

SOmebody mentioned  a re-boost of HST during this mission,  meaning
that Weight is a very tight  margin on this  mission.

How will said re-boost be done?

Grapple, HST,  stow it in Cargo bay,  do OMS burn to high altitude,  

unstow  HST,   repair  gyros,  costar install,  fix solar arrays,

then return to earth?

My guess is  why  bother with  usingthe shuttle to reboost?

why not  grapple,  do all said fixes,   bolt a small  liquid  fueled
thruster module  to  HST,   then let it make the re-boost.  it has to be
cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug.   that way, now that
they are going to need at least 5  spacewalks,  then they can carry
an EDO pallet,  and  sit on station and even  maybe do the  solar array
tilt  motor  fix.

Secular laws seem to value criminal life more than the victims life,
Islam places the rights of society and every member in it above 
the rights of the individual, this is what I call true human rights.

As a Muslim living in a non-Muslim land I am bound by the laws of the land
I live in, but I do not disregard Islamic Law it still remains a part of my 
life. If the laws of a land conflict with my religion to such an extent
that I am prevented from being allowed to practise my religion then I must 
leave the land. So in a way Islamic law does take precendence over secular law
but we are instructed to follow the laws of the land that we live in too.

In an Islamic state (one ruled by a Khaliphate) religions other than Islam
are allowed to rule by their own religious laws provided they don't affect
the genral population and don't come into direct conflict with state 
laws, Dhimmis (non-Muslim population) are exempt from most Islamic laws
on religion, such as fighting in a Jihad, giving Zakat (alms giving)
etc but are given the benefit of these two acts such as Military
protection and if they are poor they will receive Zakat.

After the Fatwa didn't Rushdie re-affirm his faith in Islam, didn't
he go thru' a very public "conversion" to Islam? If so he is binding
himself to Islamic Laws. He has to publicly renounce in his belief in Islam
so the burden is on him.

Mas

Hi!

Could anyone tell me if it's possible to save each frame
of a .gl (grasp) animation to .gif, .jpg, .iff or any other
picture formats.

(I've got some animations that I'd like to transfer to my Amiga)
 
I really hope that someone can help me.

Cheers

Look in the /pub/SPACE directory on ames.arc.nasa.gov - there are a number
of earth images there. You may have to hunt around the subdirectories as
things tend to be filed under the mission (ie, "APOLLO") rather than under	
the image subject.	

Has anyone got multiverse to work ?

I have built it on 486 svr4, mips svr4s and Sun SparcStation.

There seems to be many bugs in it.  The 'dogfight' and 'dactyl' simply do nothing
(After fixing a bug where a variable is defined twice in two different modules - One needed
setting to static - else the client core-dumped)

Steve
-- 

You're assuming that "go solar" = "photovoltaic".  Solar dynamic power
(turbo-alternators) doesn't have this problem.  It also has rather less
air drag due to its higher efficiency, which is a non-trivial win for big
solar plants at low altitude.

Now, you might have to replace the *rest* of the electronics fairly often,
unless you invest substantial amounts of mass in shielding.

References?  Such treaties have been *proposed*, but as far as I know,
none of them has ever been negotiated or signed.

There is a library of map projections in:

    charon.er.usgs.gov

in

Brian Yamauchi asks: [Regarding orbital billboards...]
  
    Well, I had been collecting data for next edition of the
Commercial Space News/Space Technology Investor... To summarize:
  
SPACE ADVERTISING
    First, advertising on space vehicles is not new -- it is very
common practice to put the cooperating organization's logos on the
space launch vehicle.  For example, the latest GPS launcher had the
(very prominent) logos on its side of
   - McDonnell Douglas (the Delta launcher)
   - Rockwell International (who built the GPS satellite)
   - USAF (who paid for the satellite and launch), and
   - the GPS/Navstar program office
   This has not been considered "paid advertising" but rather
"public relations", since the restrictions have been such that only
organizations involved in the launch could put their logos on the
side, and there was no money exchanged for this.  [However, putting
a 10' high logo on the side of the launch vehicle facing the cameras
is "advertising" as much as it is "public relations", in my
opinion.]  [And by the way, I note that the DC-X test vehicle has
rather prominent McDonnell-Douglas and SDIO logos on the side...]
   There have been several studies looking at the revenue potentials
for use of space vehicles for advertising, or placing large
advertising signs in orbit.  On the shuttle, for example, I know of
several serious studies in the early and mid 1980's which looked at
putting logos on the external tank, or on the sides of the payload
bay.  These ventures would be different than "public relations", in
that the logos or displays would not be restricted to the firms
participating on that flight, and would involve payment of sums for
the right to fly the logos in a prominent organization.  (For
example, painting the ET to look like a Pepsi can, or putting a
Disneyworld logo on the inside of the payload bay where the cameras
would scan past it.)
  
ADVERTS ON LAUNCH VEHICLES
   The first paid advertising was done on a Soviet launcher in about
1990, when several non-involved foreign organizations were allowed
to pay to put their logos on a Proton launch.  (An Italian shoe
company was one of the first advertisers, I remember.)  Similarly,
Soviet cosmonauts on Mir made a paid advertisement for the last
Olympic games, and have gleefully shown banners and other items from
participating firms and organizations.  Mars candy bars, for
example, got a plug from orbit as a sponsor of the launch of the
British visiting cosmonaut to Mir.
   Now US firms are starting to put paid advertisements on launch
vehicles.  The upcoming Conestoga launch (in June) putting the COMET
recoverable payload capsule into orbit will have paid advertisements
on the side, for Arnold Schwarzenegger's upcoming movie "The Last
Action Hero".  Besides the usual logos of the participating
organizations, Columbia pictures has paid $500,000 to put ads on the
main fuselage of the mission's Conestoga rocket, its booster
rockets, and on the COMET payload, which will orbit the Earth for
one month.  A concept for this advertising display was published in
Space News magazine a couple of months ago.
   (As a side note: Robert Lorsch, an advertising executive, is
talking about suing NASA.  He charges NASA with appropriating an idea he
created with the space agency in 1981 to form corporate advertising
sponsorships on NASA spacecraft as a way to get funding for the
space program.  Lorsch contends that in selling advertising space on
the upcoming COMET, NASA violated an agreement that it "would not use
his idea without him being the exclusive representative for NASA and
receiving compensation."   This is being disputed, since the launch
is a "commercial launch" and NASA is receiving none of the
advertising revenues, but the funding for the COMET program is
coming from NASA.)
  
ORBITAL "BILLBOARDS"
   Orbital "billboards" have been the staple of science fiction for
some time.  Arthur C. Clarke wrote about one example, and Robert
Heinlein described another in "The Man Who Sold the Moon".  Several
different potential projects have been developed, although none have
been implemented, but the most real prior to 1993 being the "Eiffel
II" project, which would have placed a large inflatable sculpture in
orbit to celebrate the French Republic's Bi-centennial.
                                                (cont)

Dominik,

	Have you tried xgrasp?  It's out there on several ftp sites.(not sure which, but archie can find it, I'm sure.)  It works ok but it lacks an interface.

I've used that reference, and found that I needed to go to their
original tech report:

	Maureen Stone and Tony DeRose,
	"Characterizing Cubic Bezier Curves"
	Xerox  EDL-88-8, December 1988

This report can be obtained for free from:
Xerox Corporation
Palo Alto Research Center
3333 Coyote Hill Road
Palo Alto, California 94303
+1-415-494-4440

The TOG paper was good, but this tech report had more interesting details ;-)

I have two books, both NASA Special Publications, on the Voyager 
Missions. One is titled "Voyages to Jupiter" the other "Voyage to Saturn" 
These were excellent books put together after the encounters with each 
planet. 

The question is: Did NASA ever put together a similar book for either the 
Uranus encounter or Neptune? If so, what SP number is it and where can it 
be obtained? If not, why didn't they?

the blood of the lamb.

This will be a hard task, because most cultures used most animals
for blood sacrifices. It has to be something related to our current
post-modernism state. Hmm, what about used computers?

Cheers,
Kent

Let me begin by saying I think this is the world's first religion to use
the net as its major recruitment medium.  Therefore, even if this
religion does not take off, its founding members will be very important
historically as this method of soliciting membership will eventually become 
common.

The basis of this religion is to apply various aspects of current conventional
morality to the characters in Genesis and Exodus but assume that the Bible's
accounts of the facts and historical events is correct.

For example,

Story of Adam and Eve:
Adam and Eve are in Garden of Eden naked and ignorant.  Have unlimited
supply of food provided, but no clothing, jobs, or knowledge.  God says
not to eat fruit of tree of knowledge.  They do anyway, then try to hide 
in bushes.  God finds them and forces them out of Garden.
(There are several different stories on what they were doing while naked in
the bushes that might have angered God.)

Traditional Philosophy:
1. The only reason you need knowledge or a job is to eat.  If someone else will
provide you with food, then you can be stupid and unemployed and it's OK. This
is why married women usually didn't work until recent decades.
2. Authority figures, such as God, whoever was behind the Vietnam War, Hitler 
and slaveowners, are always right and should be blindly followed without 
question by ordinary people, who can't make decisions for themselves.

Interpretation of events based on Traditional Philosophy:
They were not supposed to eat the fruit.  They should have done whatever God
told them to.  Like small children, they had their needs provided for and were
obligated to do whatever their "Father" said to.  Being forced to leave the 
Garden and work in order to obtain food was a punishment.

Lessons from Traditional Interpretation:
1.  Ignorance is good.  Knowledge is bad, but tempting.
2.  Having food provided for you for nothing (read "welfare") is ideal.  Get-
ting a job and feeding yourself with what you earn is punishment.
3.  Public nudity is good.  Covering up is bad.
4.  Authority figures are intrinsically right.  Normal people are dumb and 
should do whatever they are told without question.  They should not think for 
themselves.
5.  People in subordinate positions are especially obligated to refrain from
learning.  For example, it should be illegal for slaves to learn to read.

1990's philosophy:
1.  People should seek education and employment outside the home, unless
named "Hillary Clinton" or "Murphy Brown".
2.  People should use common sense.  They should not kill other people 
(binding of Issac, wars, Holocaust, etc.) just because they are told to.

Interpretation of events based on current philosophy:
They were supposed to eat the fruit.  God gave wanted them to seek knowledge
rather than be handed it on a silver platter.  Once they had gained knowledge
and (by seeking it) showed their ability to make mature decisions for them-
selves, they no longer needed to be treated like little children and were 
REWARDED by being allowed into the "real world."

Lessons from new interpretation:
1.  Ignorance is bad.  Knowledge is good, but must be sought.
2.  Having food provided for you for nothing (read "welfare") is at best
a temporary measure.  Getting a job and feeding yourself with what you earn
is ideal.
3.  Public nudity is bad.  Covering up is good.
4.  Authority figures are often wrong.  Normal people are intelligent and
should consider whether the instructions are really a good idea and "alter
or abolish" bad governments.  They should think for themselves.
5.  People in subordinate decisions are often discouraged from knowledge
but should seek it anyway, and all the harder.  For example, poor children 
without good schools should work especially hard in order to make a better
life for their children (and themselves).

I have tentatively named this new philosophy "The Church of Eveism" because
Eve's decision to eat the apple is man[sic]kind's first good decision, instead
of its first bad one, as traditionally believed.  She is therefore clearly
a protagonist.  God at first appears evil, for telling people not to seek 
knowledge but on deeper analysis is also a protagonist.  As God rewarded the
decision to defy him, and provided the tree in the first place, the intention
and desire were clearly to have the knowledge be obtained, but to delay it 
until it was actively sought.

---End serious discussion.  Begin humor.--

Save this post to disk (or file server).  Someday it will be considered the
most important writing since the 10 Commandments.  You want an original copy.

Stay tuned for the RFD on soc.religion.eveism...
Can I get a tax deduction for money I donate to this organization?

--Return to serious discussion when posting follow-ups.--

Point your gopher client at merlot.welch.jhu.edu

and select the following directories:

 -->  13. Search and Retrieve Software/

   -->  8.  Search and Retrieve Graphics Software and Data/

And you'll see -

 -->  1.  Graphics Online Bibliography (ACM SIGGRAPH)/
      2.  Graphics Software and Data Archives (ftp sites)/
      3.  Search All Graphics Information <?>
      4.  Search Comp.graphics FAQ <?>
      5.  Search Graphics Resources (Software and Data) <?>
      6.  Search Pictures Utilities FAQ <?>

          1.  Graphics Online Bibliography (ACM SIGGRAPH)/

              Searches and archives of bibliographic database that covers
              graphics literature for over a hundred years (served
              by a gopher hole in Austria).

          2.  Graphics Software and Data Archives (ftp sites)/ 

              Has links to over 70 sites around the world which
              have software and/or data for computer graphics.
              This can be used on its own or as a companion to the
              searches found in this directory which will point you
              toward software and data at various places.  
              
          3.  Search All Graphics Information <?>
          4.  Search Comp.graphics FAQ <?>
          5.  Search Graphics Resources (Software and Data) <?>
          6.  Search Pictures Utilities FAQ <?>
           
              These searches contain a wealth of information about
              computer graphics, data, software, techniques etc...

              3.  Search All Graphics Information <?> 

                  Will simply search all of the information contained
                  in searches 4, 5, and 6.

              4.  Search Comp.graphics FAQ <?>

                  Lets you search the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)
                  from the Comp.graphics newsgroup compiled by John
                  Grieggs at the JPL.

              5.  Search Graphics Resources (Software and Data) <?>

                  Lets you search the Grpahics Resource Listing of
                  software and data provided by Nick Fotis at the
                  National Technical Univ. of Athens.

              6.  Search Pictures Utilities FAQ <?>

                  from the Alt.binaries.pixutils newsgroup compiled by
                  Jim Howard at Cadence.

Select:

 -->  3.  Search All Graphics Information <?>

And search for:

usgs

And you'll find out some information about USGS data availability.

Now select:

   -->  2.  Graphics Software and Data Archives (ftp sites)/

and you might find the following interesting:

   -->  12. Cartographic data - USGS data (Xerox)/

   -->  42. Mapgen/Plotgen and more (USGS)/

   -->  68. USGS Weekly Seismicity Reports (including maps - GIF)/

   -->  68. USGS Earth Science Data Directory/
             (This actually is a database of available data - search
              it for terrain - could prove quite useful.)

One other place to look is only available by anonymous ftp at
the moment - 

US Geological Survey Maps  -  isdres.er.usgs.gov (130.11.48.2).

If you've never heard of gopher don't worry it's free and on the net,
write me a note if you'd like information on how to get started.

Best of luck,

Dan Jacobson

danj@welchgate.welch.jhu.edu

This discussion is better followed in talk.politics.space
Joseph Cain		cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu   
cain@fsu.bitnet		scri::cain
(904) 644-4014		FAX (904) 644-4214 or -0098

Don't you think it would be better to E-mail back to you that we read sci.space
so that you can count them and every server in the world does not have to get
BW'd to death.  Or instead you could possible cut and past all the senders into
a single post and save on header bandwidth....  Not meaning to be taken as a 
flame  it's late and we have to work toward a demo .... little punchy
-- 

<much drivel deleted>
<more drivel deleted>
A Laugh?  Tony, this religeous bigot scares the shit out of me, and that
any one bothers to listen to him causes me to have grave doubts about the
future of just about anything.  Shades of the Branch Davidians, Jim Jones,
and Charlie Manson.

--Uncle Wolf
--Member Highland Lodge 748 F&AM (Grand Lodge of California)
--Babtized a Southern Babtist
--And one who has beliefs beyond the teachings of either.

Archive-name: jpeg-faq
Last-modified: 18 April 1993

This FAQ article discusses JPEG image compression.  Suggestions for
additions and clarifications are welcome.

New since version of 3 April 1993:
  * New versions of Image Archiver and PMJPEG for OS/2.

This article includes the following sections:

[1]  What is JPEG?
[2]  Why use JPEG?
[3]  When should I use JPEG, and when should I stick with GIF?
[4]  How well does JPEG compress images?
[5]  What are good "quality" settings for JPEG?
[6]  Where can I get JPEG software?
    [6A] "canned" software, viewers, etc.
    [6B] source code
[7]  What's all this hoopla about color quantization?
[8]  How does JPEG work?
[9]  What about lossless JPEG?
[10]  Why all the argument about file formats?
[11]  How do I recognize which file format I have, and what do I do about it?
[12]  What about arithmetic coding?
[13]  Does loss accumulate with repeated compression/decompression?
[14]  What are some rules of thumb for converting GIF images to JPEG?

Sections 1-6 are basic info that every JPEG user needs to know;
sections 7-14 are advanced info for the curious.

This article is posted every 2 weeks.  You can always find the latest version
in the news.answers archive at rtfm.mit.edu (18.172.1.27).  By FTP, fetch
/pub/usenet/news.answers/jpeg-faq; or if you don't have FTP, send e-mail to
mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with body "send usenet/news.answers/jpeg-faq".
Many other FAQ articles are also stored in this archive.  For more
instructions on use of the archive, send e-mail to the same address with the
words "help" and "index" (no quotes) on separate lines.  If you don't get a
reply, the server may be misreading your return address; add a line such as
"path myname@mysite" to specify your correct e-mail address to reply to.

JPEG (pronounced "jay-peg") is a standardized image compression mechanism.
JPEG stands for Joint Photographic Experts Group, the original name of the
committee that wrote the standard.  JPEG is designed for compressing either
full-color or gray-scale digital images of "natural", real-world scenes.
It does not work so well on non-realistic images, such as cartoons or line
drawings.

JPEG does not handle black-and-white (1-bit-per-pixel) images, nor does it
handle motion picture compression.  Standards for compressing those types
of images are being worked on by other committees, named JBIG and MPEG
respectively.

JPEG is "lossy", meaning that the image you get out of decompression isn't
quite identical to what you originally put in.  The algorithm achieves much
of its compression by exploiting known limitations of the human eye, notably
the fact that small color details aren't perceived as well as small details
of light-and-dark.  Thus, JPEG is intended for compressing images that will
be looked at by humans.  If you plan to machine-analyze your images, the
small errors introduced by JPEG may be a problem for you, even if they are
invisible to the eye.

A useful property of JPEG is that the degree of lossiness can be varied by
adjusting compression parameters.  This means that the image maker can trade
off file size against output image quality.  You can make *extremely* small
files if you don't mind poor quality; this is useful for indexing image
archives, making thumbnail views or icons, etc. etc.  Conversely, if you
aren't happy with the output quality at the default compression setting, you
can jack up the quality until you are satisfied, and accept lesser compression.

There are two good reasons: to make your image files smaller, and to store
24-bit-per-pixel color data instead of 8-bit-per-pixel data.

Making image files smaller is a big win for transmitting files across
networks and for archiving libraries of images.  Being able to compress a
2 Mbyte full-color file down to 100 Kbytes or so makes a big difference in
disk space and transmission time!  (If you are comparing GIF and JPEG, the
size ratio is more like four to one.  More details below.)

If your viewing software doesn't support JPEG directly, you'll have to
convert JPEG to some other format for viewing or manipulating images.  Even
with a JPEG-capable viewer, it takes longer to decode and view a JPEG image
than to view an image of a simpler format (GIF, for instance).  Thus, using
JPEG is essentially a time/space tradeoff: you give up some time in order to
store or transmit an image more cheaply.

It's worth noting that when network or phone transmission is involved, the
time savings from transferring a shorter file can be much greater than the
extra time to decompress the file.  I'll let you do the arithmetic yourself.

The other reason why JPEG will gradually replace GIF as a standard Usenet
posting format is that JPEG can store full color information: 24 bits/pixel
(16 million colors) instead of 8 or less (256 or fewer colors).  If you have
only 8-bit display hardware then this may not seem like much of an advantage
to you.  Within a couple of years, though, 8-bit GIF will look as obsolete as
black-and-white MacPaint format does today.  Furthermore, for reasons detailed
in section 7, JPEG is far more useful than GIF for exchanging images among
people with widely varying color display hardware.  Hence JPEG is considerably
more appropriate than GIF for use as a Usenet posting standard.

JPEG is *not* going to displace GIF entirely; for some types of images,
GIF is superior in image quality, file size, or both.  One of the first
things to learn about JPEG is which kinds of images to apply it to.

As a rule of thumb, JPEG is superior to GIF for storing full-color or
gray-scale images of "realistic" scenes; that means scanned photographs and
similar material.  JPEG is superior even if you don't have 24-bit display
hardware, and it is a LOT superior if you do.  (See section 7 for details.)

GIF does significantly better on images with only a few distinct colors,
such as cartoons and line drawings.  In particular, large areas of pixels
that are all *exactly* the same color are compressed very efficiently indeed
by GIF.  JPEG can't squeeze these files as much as GIF does without
introducing visible defects.  This sort of image is best kept in GIF form.
(In particular, single-color borders are quite cheap in GIF files, but they
should be avoided in JPEG files.)

JPEG also has a hard time with very sharp edges: a row of pure-black pixels
adjacent to a row of pure-white pixels, for example.  Sharp edges tend to
come out blurred unless you use a very high quality setting.  Again, this
sort of thing is not found in scanned photographs, but it shows up fairly
often in GIF files: borders, overlaid text, etc.  The blurriness is
particularly objectionable with text that's only a few pixels high.
If you have a GIF with a lot of small-size overlaid text, don't JPEG it.

Computer-drawn images (ray-traced scenes, for instance) usually fall between
scanned images and cartoons in terms of complexity.  The more complex and
subtly rendered the image, the more likely that JPEG will do well on it.
The same goes for semi-realistic artwork (fantasy drawings and such).

Plain black-and-white (two level) images should never be converted to JPEG.
You need at least about 16 gray levels before JPEG is useful for gray-scale
images.  It should also be noted that GIF is lossless for gray-scale images
of up to 256 levels, while JPEG is not.

If you have an existing library of GIF images, you may wonder whether you
should convert them to JPEG.  You will lose a little image quality if you do.
(Section 7, which argues that JPEG image quality is superior to GIF, only
applies if both formats start from a full-color original.  If you start from
a GIF, you've already irretrievably lost a great deal of information; JPEG
can only make things worse.)  However, the disk space savings may justify
converting anyway.  This is a decision you'll have to make for yourself.
If you do convert a GIF library to JPEG, see section 14 for hints.  Be
prepared to leave some images in GIF format, since some GIFs will not
convert well.

Pretty darn well.  Here are some sample file sizes for an image I have
handy, a 727x525 full-color image of a ship in a harbor.  The first three
files are for comparison purposes; the rest were created with the free JPEG
software described in section 6B.

File	   Size in bytes		Comments

ship.ppm	1145040  Original file in PPM format (no compression; 24 bits
			 or 3 bytes per pixel, plus a few bytes overhead)
ship.ppm.Z	 963829  PPM file passed through Unix compress
			 compress doesn't accomplish a lot, you'll note.
			 Other text-oriented compressors give similar results.
ship.gif	 240438  Converted to GIF with ppmquant -fs 256 | ppmtogif
			 Most of the savings is the result of losing color
			 info: GIF saves 8 bits/pixel, not 24.  (See sec. 7.)

ship.jpg95	 155622  cjpeg -Q 95    (highest useful quality setting)
			 This is indistinguishable from the 24-bit original,
			 at least to my nonprofessional eyeballs.
ship.jpg75	  58009  cjpeg -Q 75    (default setting)
			 You have to look mighty darn close to distinguish this
			 from the original, even with both on-screen at once.
ship.jpg50	  38406  cjpeg -Q 50
			 This has slight defects; if you know what to look
			 for, you could tell it's been JPEGed without seeing
			 the original.  Still as good image quality as many
			 recent postings in Usenet pictures groups.
ship.jpg25	  25192  cjpeg -Q 25
			 JPEG's characteristic "blockiness" becomes apparent
			 at this setting (djpeg -blocksmooth helps some).
			 Still, I've seen plenty of Usenet postings that were
			 of poorer image quality than this.
ship.jpg5o	   6587  cjpeg -Q 5 -optimize  (-optimize cuts table overhead)
			 Blocky, but perfectly satisfactory for preview or
			 indexing purposes.  Note that this file is TINY:
			 the compression ratio from the original is 173:1 !

In this case JPEG can make a file that's a factor of four or five smaller
than a GIF of comparable quality (the -Q 75 file is every bit as good as the
GIF, better if you have a full-color display).  This seems to be a typical
ratio for real-world scenes.

Most JPEG compressors let you pick a file size vs. image quality tradeoff by
selecting a quality setting.  There seems to be widespread confusion about
the meaning of these settings.  "Quality 95" does NOT mean "keep 95% of the
information", as some have claimed.  The quality scale is purely arbitrary;
it's not a percentage of anything.

The name of the game in using JPEG is to pick the lowest quality setting
(smallest file size) that decompresses into an image indistinguishable from
the original.  This setting will vary from one image to another and from one
observer to another, but here are some rules of thumb.

The default quality setting (-Q 75) is very often the best choice.  This
setting is about the lowest you can go without expecting to see defects in a
typical image.  Try -Q 75 first; if you see defects, then go up.  Except for
experimental purposes, never go above -Q 95; saying -Q 100 will produce a
file two or three times as large as -Q 95, but of hardly any better quality.

If the image was less than perfect quality to begin with, you might be able to
go down to -Q 50 without objectionable degradation.  On the other hand, you
might need to go to a HIGHER quality setting to avoid further degradation.
The second case seems to apply much of the time when converting GIFs to JPEG.
The default -Q 75 is about right for compressing 24-bit images, but -Q 85 to
95 is usually better for converting GIFs (see section 14 for more info).

If you want a very small file (say for preview or indexing purposes) and are
prepared to tolerate large defects, a -Q setting in the range of 5 to 10 is
about right.  -Q 2 or so may be amusing as "op art".

(Note: the quality settings discussed in this article apply to the free JPEG
software described in section 6B, and to many programs based on it.  Other
JPEG implementations, such as Image Alchemy, may use a completely different
quality scale.  Some programs don't even provide a numeric scale, just
"high"/"medium"/"low"-style choices.)

Most of the programs described in this section are available by FTP.
If you don't know how to use FTP, see the FAQ article "How to find sources".
(If you don't have direct access to FTP, read about ftpmail servers in the
same article.)  That article appears regularly in news.answers, or you can
get it by sending e-mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with
"send usenet/news.answers/finding-sources" in the body.  The "Anonymous FTP
List FAQ" may also be helpful --- it's usenet/news.answers/ftp-list/faq in
the news.answers archive.

NOTE: this list changes constantly.  If you have a copy more than a couple
months old, get the latest JPEG FAQ from the news.answers archive.

[6A]  If you are looking for "canned" software, viewers, etc:

The first part of this list is system-specific programs that only run on one
kind of system.  If you don't see what you want for your machine, check out
the portable JPEG software described at the end of the list.  Note that this
list concentrates on free and shareware programs that you can obtain over
Internet; but some commercial programs are listed too.

X Windows:

John Bradley's free XV (version 2.00 and up) is an excellent viewer for JPEG,
GIF, and other image formats.  It's available for FTP from export.lcs.mit.edu
or ftp.cis.upenn.edu.  The file is called 'xv-???.tar.Z' (where ??? is the
version number, currently 2.21); it is located in the 'contrib' directory on
export or the 'pub/xv' directory at upenn.  XV reduces all images to 8 bits
internally, which means it's not a real good choice if you have a 24-bit
display (you'll still get only 8-bit color).  Also, you shouldn't use XV to
convert full-color images to JPEG, because they'll get color-quantized first.
But XV is a fine tool for converting GIF and other 8-bit images to JPEG.
CAUTION: there is a glitch in versions 2.21 and earlier: be sure to check
the "save at normal size" checkbox when saving a JPEG file, or the file will
be blurry.

Another good choice for X Windows is John Cristy's free ImageMagick package,
also available from export.lcs.mit.edu, file contrib/ImageMagick.tar.Z.
This package handles many image processing and conversion tasks.  The
ImageMagick viewer handles 24-bit displays correctly; for colormapped
displays, it does better (though slower) color quantization than XV or the
basic free JPEG software.

Both of the above are large, complex packages.  If you just want a simple
image viewer, try xloadimage or xli.  xloadimage supports JPEG in its latest
release, 3.03.  xloadimage is free and available from export.lcs.mit.edu,
file contrib/xloadimage.3.03.tar.Z.  xli is a variant version of xloadimage,
said by its fans to be somewhat faster and more robust than the original.
(The current xli is indeed faster and more robust than the current
xloadimage, at least with respect to JPEG files, because it has the IJG v4
decoder while xloadimage 3.03 is using a hacked-over v1.  The next
xloadimage release will fix this.)  xli is also free and available from
export.lcs.mit.edu, file contrib/xli.1.14.tar.Z.  Both programs are said
to do the right thing with 24-bit displays.

MS-DOS:

This covers plain DOS; for Windows or OS/2 programs, see the next headings.

One good choice is Eric Praetzel's free DVPEG, which views JPEG and GIF files.
The current version, 2.4a, is available by FTP from sunee.uwaterloo.ca
(129.97.50.50), file pub/jpeg/viewers/dvpeg24a.zip.  This is a good basic
viewer that works on either 286 or 386/486 machines.  The user interface is
not flashy, but it's functional.

Another freeware JPEG/GIF/TGA viewer is Mohammad Rezaei's Hiview.  The
current version, 1.2, is available from Simtel20 and mirror sites (see NOTE
below), file msdos/graphics/hv12.zip.  Hiview requires a 386 or better CPU
and a VCPI-compatible memory manager (QEMM386 and 386MAX work; Windows and
OS/2 do not).  Hiview is currently the fastest viewer for images that are no
bigger than your screen.  For larger images, it scales the image down to fit
on the screen (rather than using panning/scrolling as most viewers do).
You may or may not prefer this approach, but there's no denying that it
slows down loading of large images considerably.  Note: installation is a
bit tricky; read the directions carefully!

A shareware alternative is ColorView for DOS ($30).  This is easier to
install than either of the two freeware alternatives.  Its user interface is
also much spiffier-looking, although personally I find it harder to use ---
more keystrokes, inconsistent behavior.  It is faster than DVPEG but a
little slower than Hiview, at least on my hardware.  (For images larger than
screen size, DVPEG and ColorView seem to be about the same speed, and both
are faster than Hiview.)  The current version is 2.1, available from
Simtel20 and mirror sites (see NOTE below), file msdos/graphics/dcview21.zip.
Requires a VESA graphics driver; if you don't have one, look in vesadrv2.zip
or vesa-tsr.zip from the same directory.  (Many recent PCs have a built-in
VESA driver, so don't try to load a VESA driver unless ColorView complains
that the driver is missing.)

A second shareware alternative is Fullview, which has been kicking around
the net for a while, but I don't know any stable archive location for it.
The current (rather old) version is inferior to the above viewers anyway.
The author tells me that a new version of Fullview will be out shortly
and it will be submitted to the Simtel20 archives at that time.

The well-known GIF viewer CompuShow (CSHOW) supports JPEG in its latest
revision, 8.60a.  However, CSHOW's JPEG implementation isn't very good:
it's slow (about half the speed of the above viewers) and image quality is
poor except on hi-color displays.  Too bad ... it'd have been nice to see a
good JPEG capability in CSHOW.  Shareware, $25.  Available from Simtel20 and
mirror sites (see NOTE below), file msdos/gif/cshw860a.zip.

Due to the remarkable variety of PC graphics hardware, any one of these
viewers might not work on your particular machine.  If you can't get *any*
of them to work, you'll need to use one of the following conversion programs
to convert JPEG to GIF, then view with your favorite GIF viewer.  (If you
have hi-color hardware, don't use GIF as the intermediate format; try to
find a TARGA-capable viewer instead.  VPIC5.0 is reputed to do the right
thing with hi-color displays.)

The Independent JPEG Group's free JPEG converters are FTPable from Simtel20
and mirror sites (see NOTE below), file msdos/graphics/jpeg4.zip (or
jpeg4386.zip if you have a 386 and extended memory).  These files are DOS
compilations of the free source code described in section 6B; they will
convert JPEG to and from GIF, Targa, and PPM formats.

Handmade Software offers free JPEG<=>GIF conversion tools, GIF2JPG/JPG2GIF.
These are slow and are limited to conversion to and from GIF format; in
particular, you can't get 24-bit color output from a JPEG.  The major
advantage of these tools is that they will read and write HSI's proprietary
JPEG format as well as the Usenet-standard JFIF format.  Since HSI-format
files are rather widespread on BBSes, this is a useful capability.  Version
2.0 of these tools is free (prior versions were shareware).  Get it from
Simtel20 and mirror sites (see NOTE below), file msdos/graphics/gif2jpg2.zip.
NOTE: do not use HSI format for files to be posted on Internet, since it is
not readable on non-PC platforms.

Handmade Software also has a shareware image conversion and manipulation
package, Image Alchemy.  This will translate JPEG files (both JFIF and HSI
formats) to and from many other image formats.  It can also display images.
A demo version of Image Alchemy version 1.6.1 is available from Simtel20 and
mirror sites (see NOTE below), file msdos/graphics/alch161.zip.

NOTE ABOUT SIMTEL20: The Internet's key archive site for PC-related programs
is Simtel20, full name wsmr-simtel20.army.mil (192.88.110.20).  Simtel20
runs a non-Unix system with weird directory names; where this document
refers to directory (eg) "msdos/graphics" at Simtel20, that really means
"pd1:<msdos.graphics>".  If you are not physically on MILnet, you should
expect rather slow FTP transfer rates from Simtel20.  There are several
Internet sites that maintain copies (mirrors) of the Simtel20 archives;
most FTP users should go to one of the mirror sites instead.  A popular USA
mirror site is oak.oakland.edu (141.210.10.117), which keeps Simtel20 files
in (eg) "/pub/msdos/graphics".  If you have no FTP capability, you can
retrieve files from Simtel20 by e-mail; see informational postings in
comp.archives.msdos.announce to find out how.  If you are outside the USA,
consult the same newsgroup to learn where your nearest Simtel20 mirror is.

Microsoft Windows:

There are several Windows programs capable of displaying JPEG images.
(Windows viewers are generally slower than DOS viewers on the same hardware,
due to Windows' system overhead.  Note that you can run the DOS conversion
programs described above inside a Windows DOS window.)

The newest entry is WinECJ, which is free and EXTREMELY fast.  Version 1.0
is available from ftp.rahul.net, file /pub/bryanw/pc/jpeg/wecj.zip.
Requires Windows 3.1 and 256-or-more-colors mode.  This is a no-frills
viewer with the bad habit of hogging the machine completely while it
decodes; and the image quality is noticeably worse than other viewers.
But it's so fast you'll use it anyway, at least for previewing...

JView is freeware, fairly fast, has good on-line help, and can write out the
decompressed image in Windows BMP format; but it can't create new JPEG
files, and it doesn't view GIFs.  JView also lacks some other useful
features of the shareware viewers (such as brightness adjustment), but it's
an excellent basic viewer.  The current version, 0.9, is available from
ftp.cica.indiana.edu (129.79.20.84), file pub/pc/win3/desktop/jview090.zip.
(Mirrors of this archive can be found at some other Internet sites,
including wuarchive.wustl.edu.)

WinJPEG (shareware, $20) displays JPEG,GIF,Targa,TIFF, and BMP image files;
it can write all of these formats too, so it can be used as a converter.
It has some other nifty features including color-balance adjustment and
slideshow.  The current version is 2.1, available from Simtel20 and mirror
sites (see NOTE above), file msdos/windows3/winjp210.zip.  (This is a slow
286-compatible version; if you register, you'll get the 386-only version,
which is roughly 25% faster.)

ColorView is another shareware entry ($30).  This was an early and promising
contender, but it has not been updated in some time, and at this point it
has no real advantages over WinJPEG.  If you want to try it anyway, the
current version is 0.97, available from ftp.cica.indiana.edu, file
pub/pc/win3/desktop/cview097.zip.  (I understand that a new version will
be appearing once the authors are finished with ColorView for DOS.)

DVPEG (see DOS heading) also works under Windows, but only in full-screen
mode, not in a window.

OS/2:

The following files are available from hobbes.nmsu.edu (128.123.35.151).
Note: check /pub/uploads for more recent versions --- the hobbes moderator
is not very fast about moving uploads into their permanent directories.
/pub/os2/2.x/graphics/jpegv4.zip
    32-bit version of free IJG conversion programs, version 4.
/pub/os2/all/graphics/jpeg4-16.zip
    16-bit version of same, for OS/2 1.x.
/pub/os2/2.x/graphics/imgarc11.zip
    Image Archiver 1.01: image conversion/viewing with PM graphical interface.
    Strong on conversion functions, viewing is a bit weaker.  Shareware, $15.
/pub/os2/2.x/graphics/pmjpeg11.zip
    PMJPEG 1.1: OS/2 2.x port of WinJPEG, a popular viewer for Windows
    (see description in Windows section).  Shareware, $20.
/pub/os2/2.x/graphics/pmview84.zip
    PMView 0.84: JPEG/GIF/BMP viewer.  GIF viewing very fast, JPEG viewing
    fast if you have huge amounts of RAM, otherwise about the same speed
    as the above programs.  Strong 24-bit display support.  Shareware, $20.

Macintosh:

Most Mac JPEG programs rely on Apple's JPEG implementation, which is part of
the QuickTime system extension; so you need to have QuickTime installed.
To use QuickTime, you need a 68020 or better CPU and you need to be running
System 6.0.7 or later.  (If you're running System 6, you must also install
the 32-bit QuickDraw extension; this is built-in on System 7.)  You can get
QuickTime by FTP from ftp.apple.com, file dts/mac/quicktime/quicktime.hqx.
(As of 11/92, this file contains QuickTime 1.5, which is better than QT 1.0
in several ways.  With respect to JPEG, it is marginally faster and
considerably less prone to crash when fed a corrupt JPEG file.  However,
some applications seem to have compatibility problems with QT 1.5.)

Mac users should keep in mind that QuickTime's JPEG format, PICT/JPEG, is
not the same as the Usenet-standard JFIF JPEG format.  (See section 10 for
details.)  If you post images on Usenet, make sure they are in JFIF format.
Most of the programs mentioned below can generate either format.

The first choice is probably JPEGView, a free program for viewing images
that are in JFIF format, PICT/JPEG format, or GIF format.  It also can
convert between the two JPEG formats.  The current version, 2.0, is a big
improvement over prior versions.  Get it from sumex-aim.stanford.edu
(36.44.0.6), file /info-mac/app/jpeg-view-20.hqx.  Requires System 7 and
QuickTime.  On 8-bit displays, JPEGView usually produces the best color
image quality of all the currently available Mac JPEG viewers.  JPEGView can
view large images in much less memory than other Mac viewers; in fact, it's
the only one that can deal with JPEG images much over 640x480 pixels on a
typical 4MB Mac.  Given a large image, JPEGView automatically scales it down
to fit on the screen, rather than presenting scroll bars like most other
viewers.  (You can zoom in on any desired portion, though.)  Some people
like this behavior, some don't.  Overall, JPEGView's user interface is very
well thought out.

GIFConverter, a shareware ($40) image viewer/converter, supports JFIF and
PICT/JPEG, as well as GIF and several other image formats.  The latest
version is 2.3.2.  Get it from sumex-aim.stanford.edu, file
/info-mac/art/gif/gif-converter-232.hqx.  Requires System 6.0.5 or later.
GIFConverter is not better than JPEGView as a plain JPEG/GIF viewer, but
it has much more extensive image manipulation and format conversion
capabilities, so you may find it worth its shareware fee if you do a lot of
playing around with images.  Also, the newest version of GIFConverter can
load and save JFIF images *without* QuickTime, so it is your best bet if
your machine is too old to run QuickTime.  (But it's faster with QuickTime.)
Note: If GIFConverter runs out of memory trying to load a large JPEG, try
converting the file to GIF with JPEG Convert, then viewing the GIF version.

JPEG Convert, a Mac version of the free IJG JPEG conversion utilities, is
available from sumex-aim.stanford.edu, file /info-mac/app/jpeg-convert-10.hqx.
This will run on any Mac, but it only does file conversion, not viewing.
You can use it in conjunction with any GIF viewer.

Previous versions of this FAQ recommended Imagery JPEG v0.6, a JPEG<=>GIF
converter based on an old version of the IJG code.  If you are using this
program, you definitely should replace it with JPEG Convert.

Apple's free program PictPixie can view images in JFIF, QuickTime JPEG, and
GIF format, and can convert between these formats.  You can get PictPixie
from ftp.apple.com, file dts/mac/quicktime/qt.1.0.stuff/pictpixie.hqx.
Requires QuickTime.  PictPixie was intended as a developer's tool, and it's
really not the best choice unless you like to fool around with QuickTime.
Some of its drawbacks are that it requires lots of memory, it produces
relatively poor color image quality on anything less than a 24-bit display,
and it has a relatively unfriendly user interface.  Worse, PictPixie is an
unsupported program, meaning it has some minor bugs that Apple does not
intend to fix.  (There is an old version of PictPixie, called
PICTCompressor, floating around the net.  If you have this you should trash
it, as it's even buggier.  Also, the QuickTime Starter Kit includes a much
cleaned-up descendant of PictPixie called Picture Compressor.  Note that
Picture Compressor is NOT free and may not be distributed on the net.)

Storm Technology's Picture Decompress is a free JPEG viewer/converter.
This rather old program is inferior to the above programs in many ways, but
it will run without System 7 or QuickTime, so you may be forced to use it on
older systems.  (It does need 32-bit QuickDraw, so really old machines can't
use it.)  You can get it from sumex-aim.stanford.edu, file
/info-mac/app/picture-decompress-201.hqx.  You must set the file type of a
downloaded image file to 'JPEG' to allow Picture Decompress to open it.

If your machine is too old to run 32-bit QuickDraw (a Mac Plus for instance),
GIFConverter is your only choice for single-program JPEG viewing.  If you
don't want to pay for GIFConverter, use JPEG Convert and a free GIF viewer.

More and more commercial Mac applications are supporting JPEG, although not
all can deal with the Usenet-standard JFIF format.  Adobe Photoshop, version
2.0.1 or later, can read and write JFIF-format JPEG files (use the JPEG
plug-in from the Acquire menu).  You must set the file type of a downloaded
JPEG file to 'JPEG' to allow Photoshop to recognize it.

Amiga:

(Most programs listed in this section are stored in the AmiNet archive at
amiga.physik.unizh.ch (130.60.80.80).  There are many mirror sites of this
archive and you should try to use the closest one.  In the USA, a good
choice is wuarchive.wustl.edu; look under /mirrors/amiga.physik.unizh.ch/...)

HamLab Plus is an excellent JPEG viewer/converter, as well as being a
general image manipulation tool.  It's cheap (shareware, $20) and can read
several formats besides JPEG.  The current version is 2.0.8.  A demo version
is available from amiga.physik.unizh.ch (and mirror sites), file
amiga/gfx/edit/hamlab208d.lha.  The demo version will crop images larger
than 512x512, but it is otherwise fully functional.

Rend24 (shareware, $30) is an image renderer that can display JPEG, ILBM,
and GIF images.  The program can be used to create animations, even
capturing frames on-the-fly from rendering packages like Lightwave.  The
current version is 1.05, available from amiga.physik.unizh.ch (and mirror
sites), file amiga/os30/gfx/rend105.lha.  (Note: although this directory is
supposedly for AmigaDOS 3.0 programs, the program will also run under
AmigaDOS 1.3, 2.04 or 2.1.)

Viewtek is a free JPEG/ILBM/GIF/ANIM viewer.  The current version is 1.04,
available from amiga.physik.unizh.ch (and mirror sites), file
amiga/gfx/show/ViewTek104.lha.

If you're willing to spend real money, there are several commercial packages
that support JPEG.  Two are written by Thomas Krehbiel, the author of Rend24
and Viewtek.  These are CineMorph, a standalone image morphing package, and
ImageFX, an impressive 24-bit image capture, conversion, editing, painting,
effects and prepress package that also includes CineMorph.  Both are
distributed by Great Valley Products.  Art Department Professional (ADPro),
from ASDG Inc, is the most widely used commercial image manipulation
software for Amigas.  ImageMaster, from Black Belt Systems, is another
well-regarded commercial graphics package with JPEG support.

The free IJG JPEG software is available compiled for Amigas from
amiga.physik.unizh.ch (and mirror sites) in directory amiga/gfx/conv, file
AmigaJPEGV4.lha.  These programs convert JPEG to/from PPM,GIF,Targa formats.

The Amiga world is heavily infested with quick-and-dirty JPEG programs, many
based on an ancient beta-test version of the free IJG JPEG software (thanks
to a certain magazine that published same on its disk-of-the-month, without
so much as notifying the authors).  Among these are "AugJPEG", "NewAmyJPEG",
"VJPEG", and probably others I have not even heard of.  In my opinion,
anything older than IJG version 3 (March 1992) is not worth the disk space
it's stored on; if you have such a program, trash it and get something newer.

Atari ST:

The free IJG JPEG software is available compiled for Atari ST, TT, etc,
from atari.archive.umich.edu, file /atari/Graphics/jpeg4bin.zoo.
These programs convert JPEG to/from PPM, GIF, Targa formats.

I have not heard of any free or shareware JPEG-capable viewer for Ataris,
but surely there must be one by now?  Pointers appreciated.

Acorn Archimedes:

!ChangeFSI, supplied with RISC OS 3 version 3.10, can convert from and view
JPEG JFIF format.  Provision is also made to convert images to JPEG,
although this must be done from the CLI rather than by double-clicking.

Recent versions (since 7.11) of the shareware program Translator can handle
JPEG, along with about 30 other image formats.  While older versions can be
found on some Archimedes bboards, the current version is only available by
registering with the author, John Kortink, Nutterbrink 31, 7544 WJ, Enschede,
The Netherlands.  Price 35 Dutch guilders (about $22 or 10 pounds).

There's also a commercial product called !JPEG which provides JPEG read/write
functionality and direct JPEG viewing, as well as a host of other image
format conversion and processing options.  This is more expensive but not
necessarily better than the above programs.  Contact: DT Software, FREEPOST,
Cambridge, UK.  Tel: 0223 841099.

Portable software for almost any system:

If none of the above fits your situation, you can obtain and compile the free
JPEG conversion software described in 6B.  You'll also need a viewer program.
If your display is 8 bits or less, any GIF viewer will do fine; if you have a
display with more color capability, try to find a viewer that can read Targa
or PPM 24-bit image files.

There are numerous commercial JPEG offerings, with more popping up every
day.  I recommend that you not spend money on one of these unless you find
the available free or shareware software vastly too slow.  In that case,
purchase a hardware-assisted product.  Ask pointed questions about whether
the product complies with the final JPEG standard and about whether it can
handle the JFIF file format; many of the earliest commercial releases are
not and never will be compatible with anyone else's files.

[6B]  If you are looking for source code to work with:

Free, portable C code for JPEG compression is available from the Independent
JPEG Group, which I lead.  A package containing our source code,
documentation, and some small test files is available from several places.
The "official" archive site for this source code is ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9
or 192.48.96.9).  Look under directory /graphics/jpeg; the current release
is jpegsrc.v4.tar.Z.  (This is a compressed TAR file; don't forget to
retrieve in binary mode.)  You can retrieve this file by FTP or UUCP.
If you are on a PC and don't know how to cope with .tar.Z format, you may
prefer ZIP format, which you can find at Simtel20 and mirror sites (see NOTE
above), file msdos/graphics/jpegsrc4.zip.  This file will also be available on
CompuServe, in the GRAPHSUPPORT forum (GO PICS), library 15, as jpsrc4.zip.
If you have no FTP access, you can retrieve the source from your nearest
comp.sources.misc archive; version 4 appeared as issues 55-72 of volume 34.
(If you don't know how to retrieve comp.sources.misc postings, see the FAQ
article "How to find sources", referred to at the top of section 6.)

The free JPEG code provides conversion between JPEG "JFIF" format and image
files in GIF, PBMPLUS PPM/PGM, Utah RLE, and Truevision Targa file formats.
The core compression and decompression modules can easily be reused in other
programs, such as image viewers.  The package is highly portable; we have
tested it on many machines ranging from PCs to Crays.

We have released this software for both noncommercial and commercial use.
Companies are welcome to use it as the basis for JPEG-related products.
We do not ask a royalty, although we do ask for an acknowledgement in
product literature (see the README file in the distribution for details).
We hope to make this software industrial-quality --- although, as with
anything that's free, we offer no warranty and accept no liability.

The Independent JPEG Group is a volunteer organization; if you'd like to
contribute to improving our software, you are welcome to join.

Most people don't have full-color (24 bit per pixel) display hardware.
Typical display hardware stores 8 or fewer bits per pixel, so it can display
256 or fewer distinct colors at a time.  To display a full-color image, the
computer must map the image into an appropriate set of representative
colors.  This process is called "color quantization".  (This is something
of a misnomer, "color selection" would be a better term.  We're stuck with
the standard usage though.)

Clearly, color quantization is a lossy process.  It turns out that for most
images, the details of the color quantization algorithm have MUCH more impact
on the final image quality than do any errors introduced by JPEG (except at
the very lowest JPEG quality settings).

Since JPEG is a full-color format, converting a color JPEG image for display
on 8-bit-or-less hardware requires color quantization.  This is true for
*all* color JPEGs: even if you feed a 256-or-less-color GIF into JPEG, what
comes out of the decompressor is *not* 256 colors, but thousands of colors.
This happens because JPEG's lossiness affects each pixel a little
differently, so two pixels that started with identical colors will probably
come out with slightly different colors.  Each original color gets "smeared"
into a group of nearby colors.  Therefore quantization is always required to
display a color JPEG on a colormapped display, regardless of the image
source.  The only way to avoid quantization is to ask for gray-scale output.

(Incidentally, because of this effect it's nearly meaningless to talk about
the number of colors used by a JPEG image.  Even if you attempted to count
the number of distinct pixel values, different JPEG decoders would give you
different results because of roundoff error differences.  I occasionally see
posted images described as "256-color JPEG".  This tells me that the poster
(a) hasn't read this FAQ and (b) probably converted the JPEG from a GIF.
JPEGs can be classified as color or gray-scale (just like photographs), but
number of colors just isn't a useful concept for JPEG.)

On the other hand, a GIF image by definition has already been quantized to
256 or fewer colors.  (A GIF *does* have a definite number of colors in its
palette, and the format doesn't allow more than 256 palette entries.)
For purposes of Usenet picture distribution, GIF has the advantage that the
sender precomputes the color quantization, so recipients don't have to.
This is also the *disadvantage* of GIF: you're stuck with the sender's
quantization.  If the sender quantized to a different number of colors than
what you can display, you have to re-quantize, resulting in much poorer
image quality than if you had quantized once from a full-color image.
Furthermore, if the sender didn't use a high-quality color quantization
algorithm, you're out of luck.

For this reason, JPEG offers the promise of significantly better image quality
for all users whose machines don't match the sender's display hardware.
JPEG's full color image can be quantized to precisely match the user's display
hardware.  Furthermore, you will be able to take advantage of future
improvements in quantization algorithms (there is a lot of active research in
this area), or purchase better display hardware, to get a better view of JPEG
images you already have.  With a GIF, you're stuck forevermore with what was
sent.

It's also worth mentioning that many GIF-viewing programs include rather
shoddy quantization routines.  If you view a 256-color GIF on a 16-color EGA
display, for example, you are probably getting a much worse image than you
need to.  This is partly an inevitable consequence of doing two color
quantizations (one to create the GIF, one to display it), but often it's
also due to sloppiness.  JPEG conversion programs will be forced to use
high quality quantizers in order to get acceptable results at all, and in
normal use they will quantize directly to the number of colors to be
displayed.  Thus, JPEG is likely to provide better results than the average
GIF program for low-color-resolution displays as well as high-resolution ones!

Finally, an ever-growing number of people have better-than-8-bit display
hardware already: 15-bit "hi-color" PC displays, true 24-bit displays on
workstations and Macintoshes, etc.  For these people, GIF is already
obsolete, as it cannot represent an image to the full capabilities of their
display.  JPEG images can drive these displays much more effectively.
Thus, JPEG is an all-around better choice than GIF for representing images
in a machine-independent fashion.

The buzz-words to know are chrominance subsampling, discrete cosine
transforms, coefficient quantization, and Huffman or arithmetic entropy
coding.  This article's long enough already, so I'm not going to say more
than that here.  For technical information, see the comp.compression FAQ.
This is available from the news.answers archive at rtfm.mit.edu, in files
/pub/usenet/news.answers/compression-faq/part[1-3].  If you need help in
using the news.answers archive, see the top of this article.

There's a great deal of confusion on this subject.  The JPEG committee did
define a truly lossless compression algorithm, i.e., one that guarantees the
final output is bit-for-bit identical to the original input.  However, this
lossless mode has almost nothing in common with the regular, lossy JPEG
algorithm, and it offers much less compression.  At present, very few
implementations of lossless JPEG exist, and all of them are commercial.

Saying "-Q 100" to the free JPEG software DOES NOT get you a lossless image.
What it does get rid of is deliberate information loss in the coefficient
quantization step.  There is still a good deal of information loss in the
color subsampling step.  (With the V4 free JPEG code, you can also say
"-sample 1x1" to turn off subsampling.  Keep in mind that many commercial
JPEG implementations cannot cope with the resulting file.)

Even with both quantization and subsampling turned off, the regular JPEG
algorithm is not lossless, because it is subject to roundoff errors in
various calculations.  The maximum error is a few counts in any one pixel
value; it's highly unlikely that this could be perceived by the human eye,
but it might be a concern if you are doing machine processing of an image.

At this minimum-loss setting, regular JPEG produces files that are perhaps
half the size of an uncompressed 24-bit-per-pixel image.  True lossless JPEG
provides roughly the same amount of compression, but it guarantees
bit-for-bit accuracy.

If you have an application requiring lossless storage of images with less
than 6 bits per pixel (per color component), you may want to look into the
JBIG bilevel image compression standard.  This performs better than JPEG
lossless on such images.  JPEG lossless is superior to JBIG on images with
6 or more bits per pixel; furthermore, JPEG is public domain (at least with a
Huffman back end), while the JBIG techniques are heavily covered by patents.

Strictly speaking, JPEG refers only to a family of compression algorithms;
it does *not* refer to a specific image file format.  The JPEG committee was
prevented from defining a file format by turf wars within the international
standards organizations.

Since we can't actually exchange images with anyone else unless we agree on
a common file format, this leaves us with a problem.  In the absence of
official standards, a number of JPEG program writers have just gone off to
"do their own thing", and as a result their programs aren't compatible with
anybody else's.

The closest thing we have to a de-facto standard JPEG format is some work
that's been coordinated by people at C-Cube Microsystems.  They have defined
two JPEG-based file formats:
  * JFIF (JPEG File Interchange Format), a "low-end" format that transports
    pixels and not much else.
  * TIFF/JPEG, aka TIFF 6.0, an extension of the Aldus TIFF format.  TIFF is
    a "high-end" format that will let you record just about everything you
    ever wanted to know about an image, and a lot more besides :-).  TIFF is
    a lot more complex than JFIF, and may well prove less transportable,
    because different vendors have historically implemented slightly different
    and incompatible subsets of TIFF.  It's not likely that adding JPEG to the
    mix will do anything to improve this situation.
Both of these formats were developed with input from all the major vendors
of JPEG-related products; it's reasonably likely that future commercial
products will adhere to one or both standards.

I believe that Usenet should adopt JFIF as the replacement for GIF in
picture postings.  JFIF is simpler than TIFF and is available now; the
TIFF 6.0 spec has only recently been officially adopted, and it is still
unusably vague on some crucial details.  Even when TIFF/JPEG is well
defined, the JFIF format is likely to be a widely supported "lowest common
denominator"; TIFF/JPEG files may never be as transportable.

A particular case that people may be interested in is Apple's QuickTime
software for the Macintosh.  QuickTime uses a JFIF-compatible format wrapped
inside the Mac-specific PICT structure.  Conversion between JFIF and
QuickTime JPEG is pretty straightforward, and several Mac programs are
available to do it (see Mac portion of section 6A).  If you have an editor
that handles binary files, you can strip a QuickTime JPEG PICT down to JFIF
by hand; see section 11 for details.

Another particular case is Handmade Software's programs (GIF2JPG/JPG2GIF and
Image Alchemy).  These programs are capable of reading and writing JFIF
format.  By default, though, they write a proprietary format developed by
HSI.  This format is NOT readable by any non-HSI programs and should not be
used for Usenet postings.  Use the -j switch to get JFIF output.  (This
applies to old versions of these programs; the current releases emit JFIF
format by default.  You still should be careful not to post HSI-format
files, unless you want to get flamed by people on non-PC platforms.)

If you have an alleged JPEG file that your software won't read, it's likely
to be HSI format or some other proprietary JPEG-based format.  You can tell
what you have by inspecting the first few bytes of the file:

1.  A JFIF-standard file will start with the characters (hex) FF D8 FF E0,
    followed by two variable bytes (often hex 00 10), followed by 'JFIF'.

2.  If you see FF D8 at the start, but not the rest of it, you may have a
    "raw JPEG" file.  This is probably decodable as-is by JFIF software ---
    it's worth a try, anyway.

3.  HSI files start with 'hsi1'.  You're out of luck unless you have HSI
    software.  Portions of the file may look like plain JPEG data, but they
    won't decompress properly with non-HSI programs.

4.  A Macintosh PICT file, if JPEG-compressed, will have a couple hundred
    bytes of header followed by a JFIF header (scan for 'JFIF').  Strip off
    everything before the FF D8 and you should be able to read it.

5.  Anything else: it's a proprietary format, or not JPEG at all.  If you are
    lucky, the file may consist of a header and a raw JPEG data stream.
    If you can identify the start of the JPEG data stream (look for FF D8),
    try stripping off everything before that.

In uuencoded Usenet postings, the characteristic JFIF pattern is

	"begin" line
	M_]C_X ...

whereas uuencoded HSI files will start with

	M:'-I ...

If you learn to check for the former, you can save yourself the trouble of
downloading non-JFIF files.

The JPEG spec defines two different "back end" modules for the final output
of compressed data: either Huffman coding or arithmetic coding is allowed.
The choice has no impact on image quality, but arithmetic coding usually
produces a smaller compressed file.  On typical images, arithmetic coding
produces a file 5 or 10 percent smaller than Huffman coding.  (All the
file-size numbers previously cited are for Huffman coding.)

Unfortunately, the particular variant of arithmetic coding specified by the
JPEG standard is subject to patents owned by IBM, AT&T, and Mitsubishi.
Thus *you cannot legally use arithmetic coding* unless you obtain licenses
from these companies.  (The "fair use" doctrine allows people to implement
and test the algorithm, but actually storing any images with it is dubious
at best.)

At least in the short run, I recommend that people not worry about
arithmetic coding; the space savings isn't great enough to justify the
potential legal hassles.  In particular, arithmetic coding *should not*
be used for any images to be exchanged on Usenet.

There is some small chance that the legal situation may change in the
future.  Stay tuned for further details.

It would be nice if, having compressed an image with JPEG, you could
decompress it, manipulate it (crop off a border, say), and recompress it
without any further image degradation beyond what you lost initially.
Unfortunately THIS IS NOT THE CASE.  In general, recompressing an altered
image loses more information, though usually not as much as was lost the
first time around.

The next best thing would be that if you decompress an image and recompress
it *without changing it* then there is no further loss, i.e., you get an
identical JPEG file.  Even this is not true; at least, not with the current
free JPEG software.  It's essentially a problem of accumulation of roundoff
error.  If you repeatedly compress and decompress, the image will eventually
degrade to where you can see visible changes from the first-generation
output.  (It usually takes many such cycles to get visible change.)
One of the things on our to-do list is to see if accumulation of error can
be avoided or limited, but I am not optimistic about it.

In any case, the most that could possibly be guaranteed would be that
compressing the unmodified full-color output of djpeg, at the original
quality setting, would introduce no further loss.  Even such simple changes
as cropping off a border could cause further roundoff-error degradation.
(If you're wondering why, it's because the pixel-block boundaries move.
If you cropped off only multiples of 16 pixels, you might be safe, but
that's a mighty limited capability!)

The bottom line is that JPEG is a useful format for archival storage and
transmission of images, but you don't want to use it as an intermediate
format for sequences of image manipulation steps.  Use a lossless format
(PPM, RLE, TIFF, etc) while working on the image, then JPEG it when you are
ready to file it away.  Aside from avoiding degradation, you will save a lot
of compression/decompression time this way :-).

As stated earlier, you *will* lose some amount of image information if you
convert an existing GIF image to JPEG.  If you can obtain the original
full-color data the GIF was made from, it's far better to make a JPEG from
that.  But if you need to save space and have only the GIF to work from,
here are some suggestions for getting maximum space savings with minimum
loss of quality.

The first rule when converting a GIF library is to look at each JPEG, to
make sure you are happy with it, before throwing away the corresponding GIF;
that will give you a chance to re-do the conversion with a higher quality
setting if necessary.  Some GIFs may be better left as GIFs, as explained in
section 3; in particular, cartoon-type GIFs with sixteen or fewer colors
don't convert well.  You may find that a JPEG file of reasonable quality
will be *larger* than the GIF.  (So check the sizes too.)

Experience to date suggests that large, high-visual-quality GIFs are the best
candidates for conversion to JPEG.  They chew up the most storage so offer
the most potential savings, and they convert to JPEG with least degradation.
Don't waste your time converting any GIF much under 100 Kbytes.  Also, don't
expect JPEG files converted from GIFs to be as small as those created
directly from full-color originals.  To maintain image quality you may have
to let the converted files be as much as twice as big as straight-through
JPEG files would be (i.e., shoot for 1/2 or 1/3rd the size of the GIF file,
not 1/4th as suggested in earlier comparisons).

Many people have developed an odd habit of putting a large constant-color
border around a GIF image.  While useless, this was nearly free in terms of
storage cost in GIF files.  It is NOT free in JPEG files, and the sharp
border boundary can create visible artifacts ("ghost" edges).  Do yourself
a favor and crop off any border before JPEGing.  (If you are on an X Windows
system, XV's manual and automatic cropping functions are a very painless
way to do this.)

cjpeg's default Q setting of 75 is appropriate for full-color input, but
for GIF inputs, Q settings of 85 to 95 often seem to be necessary to avoid
image degradation.  (If you apply smoothing as suggested below, the higher
Q setting may not be necessary.)

Color GIFs of photographs or complex artwork are usually "dithered" to fool
your eye into seeing more than the 256 colors that GIF can actually store.
If you enlarge the image, you will see that adjacent pixels are often of
significantly different colors; at normal size the eye averages these pixels
together to produce the illusion of an intermediate color value.  The
trouble with dithering is that, to JPEG, it looks like high-spatial-frequency
color noise; and JPEG can't compress noise very well.  The resulting JPEG
file is both larger and of lower image quality than what you would have
gotten from JPEGing the original full color image (if you had it).
To get around this, you want to "smooth" the GIF image before compression.
Smoothing averages together nearby pixels, thus approximating the color that
you thought you saw anyway, and in the process getting rid of the rapid
color changes that give JPEG trouble.  Appropriate use of smoothing will
often let you avoid using a high Q factor, thus further reducing the size of
the compressed file, while still obtaining a better-looking output image
than you'd get without smoothing.

With the V4 free JPEG software (or products based on it), a simple smoothing
capability is built in.  Try "-smooth 10" or so when converting GIFs.
Values of 10 to 25 seem to work well for high-quality GIFs.  Heavy-handed
dithering may require larger smoothing factors.  (If you can see regular
fine-scale patterns on the GIF image even without enlargement, then strong
smoothing is definitely called for.)  Too large a smoothing factor will blur
the output image, which you don't want.  If you are an image processing
wizard, you can also do smoothing with a separate filtering program, such as
pnmconvol from the PBMPLUS package.  However, cjpeg's built-in smoother is
a LOT faster than pnmconvol...

The upshot of all this is that "cjpeg -quality 85 -smooth 10" is probably a
good starting point for converting GIFs.  But if you really care about the
image, you'll want to check the results and maybe try a few other settings.

For more information about JPEG in general or the free JPEG software in
particular, contact the Independent JPEG Group at jpeg-info@uunet.uu.net.

   >	If the  new  Kuiper belt object *is*  called 'Karla', the next
   >one  should be called 'Smiley'.

   Unless I'm imaging things, (always a possibility =) 1992 QB1, the Kuiper Belt
   object discovered last year, is known as Smiley.

As it happens the _second_ one is Karla. The first one was
Smiley. All subject to the vagaries of the IAU of course,
but I think they might let this one slide...

*  Steinn Sigurdsson   			Lick Observatory      	          *
*  steinly@lick.ucsc.edu		"standard disclaimer"  	          *
*  "The worst thing you can say to a true revolutionary is that his 	  *
*  revolution is unnecessary, that the problems can be corrected without  *
*  radical change. Telling people that paradise can be attained without   *
*  revolution is treason of the vilest kind."  -- H.S. 1993		  * 

Well, that would depend on how much we wanted the US and how much
we wanted the $1, wouldn't it?
-Ekr

Yeah. Innocents. People who hoard $250K worth of high-caliber automatic weapons
and kill law-enforcement agents really fit the bill here. The only innocents
were the 20+ children who were prevented from leaving a burning building by
their self-appointed messiah-following parents. A burning STARTED by the 
Davidians.

Is this subject line a veiled threat against U.S. Government agents or possibly
Executive office leadership (i.e. Clinton)? I've considered you a bit of a loon,
before, Stephen, I guess this pretty much confirms it. 

Nice religion you have there.  The only ones who should be killed are those who
don't agree with us. Sheesh.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Tom Hyatt                                  I'm a diehard Saints fan, so i've    thyat@sdf.lonestar.org                     suffered quite enough, thank you!    Arlington, TX                                                                                                                                                    Help! I'm being repressed!  -M.Python                                          -------------------------------

+Last night, while watching the 2a.m. rebroadcast of Jerry Springer (a
+talk show) I heard this Jewel of a thought from a 12 year old racist. 
+The focus of this show was on these kids and their hatred for the Jewish
+religion, and why.  

[some stuff deleted]

+Interesting (and scary) no?  They went on to say how the Jews had 
+killed their god, and how in the end of time that all the races would
+go to their homelands (of course, they would remain in America, which
+is New Jeruselem, as it says in Gen 2??? (what another kid said) but
+the rest of the races would go home) and then the great battle or plague
+or whatever Revel. says would happen, and the jews would be killed.
+
+The most interesting thing about this was that my roomate is Catholic, 
+and had the KJV of the Bible on his desk.  He immediatly opened it up
+and began to search for the quoted passages (Gen, Rev, and John) to 
+look for himself, and couldn't find what they said they saw.  I don't
+know

I saw this show a while back, and when I heard these kids
quote the Bible to justify their racist claims, I looked up
that quote about Jesus hating Jews (since Jesus himself was a
Jew, my curiousity had been piqued by such a claim).
The jist of the passage (and I am sorry but I can't recall
which passage it was exactly) was that Jesus was condemning
the Pharisees for being corrupt.
Of course, the Pharisees were Jewish too, but it wasn't Jews
as a whole that Jesus was condemning, just the powers that be.

Hiya 

I'm a VERY amuture astronomer in Adelaide Australia, and today, I heard some
very interesting and exciting news from a local program on TV. As I couldn't
find anything on it on the news server, I have posted this. However, if it is
old information, tell me, and ill sue the TV station for saying they are 
'Up to date' ;-)

(Also, my news server could be slow. . so . . .!!!

I only caught the end of the article, so all the information on the topic
is not known to me at the moment.

The news is of a small 'psudo' planet outside the orbit of pluto found in a 
Hawiian obsevatory, supposably 'recently' - acording to the report.
It was meant to be about 150miles in diamater, and a faily large distance 
from the plutos orbit.  (it had a computer drawing, and the orbit distance
from pluto was about the same as neptune to pluto when they are furthest
apart.  This is all I found out about it. OH it is called Karna. (un-officially
).  
CAn anyone give any more information to me on it???

Thanx.

Brendan Woithe
swoithe@crackle.aelmg.adelaide.edu.au

BTW - if this is old news, does anyone know a good lawyer. . . .8)

I wanted to know if any of you out there can recommend a good
book about graphics, still and animated, and in VGA/SVGA.

Read the FAQ first, watch the list fr some weeks, and come back then.

 As you have presented it, it is indeed an argument from incredulity.
However, from what I have seen, it is not often presented in this manner.
It is usually presented more in the form, "And *besides*, I cannot see...
...nor have I ever been offered a convincing explanation."
 Moreover, it is not unreasonable to ask for an explanation for such
phenomena. That theism does not provide a convincing explanation is not
an argument in theism's favor. Especially when different theisms offer 
different explanations, and even different adherents of what is purportedly
the same theism give different explanations...

 Not im my experience. In my experience, the most common reason is the
lack of evidence in theism's favor. You mileage may vary. :->

 Oh, heck, I'll be snide this once. :-> It's also fairly easy to attack
arguments that are not made. (I.e. 'strawmen'.)

 Sage advice indeed.

 Raymond Ingles                       ingles@engin.umich.edu

Scott,
	I'm not so sure if this is helpful, but I usually use XV v2.21.  I use Sun IPCs and IPXs, and it works fine.  It can display in a good number of ways.(root being one of them)  It's also possible to have XV put up a background automatically at login.  Hope this helps.

Jason Weiler
<weilej@rpi.edu>

Oh, and us with the big degrees don't got imagination, huh?

The alleged dichotomy between imagination and knowledge is one of the most
pernicious fallacys of the New Age.  Michael, thanks for the generous
offer, but we have quite enough dreams of our own, thank you.

You, on the other hand, are letting your own dreams go to waste by
failing to get the maths/thermodynamics/chemistry/(your choices here)
which would give your imagination wings.

Just to show this isn't a flame, I leave you with a quote from _Invasion of 
the Body Snatchers_:

"Become one of us; it's not so bad, you know"

Does anybody have a collection of occurances of 42? (before and after
The Guide). If not, I would like to receive any odd bits you might know.
postings to alt.fan.douglas.adams.

SIRTF is still very much in business

No, you don't understand.  I said that I don't think people can discuss
the subjective merits of religion objectively.  This should be obvious.
People here have said that everyone would be better off without religion,
but this almost certainly isn't true.

But, guns and axes are tools, both of which have been used for murder.
Should both be taken away?  That is to say, I don't think motto misuse
warrants its removal.  At least not in this case.

This is what I posted that cview uses the root directory of the drive
cview is on.  However, since It has so much trouble reading large files
from floppy, I suspect that it uses the root directory of the drive the
image files are on.

: You know, it just occurred to me today that this whole Christian thing
: can be blamed solely on Mary.
: 
: So, she's married to Joseph.  She gets knocked up.  What do you think
: ol' Joe will do if he finds she's been getting around?  So Mary comes up
: with this ridiculous story about God making her pregnant.  
: 

  Nice attempt Chris . . . verrry close.

  You missed the conspiracy by 1 step. Joseph knew who knocked her up.
He couldn't let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol' Mary prego. That
wouldn't do well for his popularity in the local circles. So what 
happened is that she was feeling guilty, he was feeling embarrassed, and
THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
been the downfall for both. Clever indeed. Come to think of it . . . I
have gained a new respect for the couple. Maybe Joseph and Mary should
receive all of the praise being paid to jesus.

If anyone knows anyone else who would like to get sci.space,
but doesn't have an Internet feed (or has a cryptic Internet
feed), I would be willing to feed it to them.  I have a nice
offline message reader/editor, an automated modem "mailer"
program which will pick up mail bundles (quickly and easily),
and an INSTALL.EXE to set them up painlessly.  No charge for
the sci.space feed, though you have to dial Washington, D.C.
This is NOT a BBS -- it's a store & forward system for mail
bundles, with minimum connect times.  (I'm used to overseas
calls.)  (This is not an offer for a free feed for any other
particular newsgroups.)  Speeds of up to 14400 (v32bis) are
supported.  VIP's might be offered other free services, such
as Internet address and other functionality.

I get my feed from UUNET and run a 4-line hub.  I've been
hubbing for years -- I have an extremely reliable hub.

The software I provide runs under MS-DOS (and OS/2 and Windows
as a DOS box).  Other, compatible software packages exist for
the MacIntosh and Unix.

Any responses should be private and go to:  

(By the way, to all, my apologies for the public traffic on my
glib question.  I really didn't expect public replys.  But thanks
to Bill Higgins for the interesting statistics and the lead.)

Has anybody made a converter from irit's .irt or .dat format to
 .pov format ?

Thanks!

: Are you saying that their was a physical Adam and Eve, and that all
: humans are direct decendents of only these two human beings.?  Then who
: were Cain and Able's wives?  Couldn't be their sisters, because A&E
: didn't have daughters.  Were they non-humans?

Genesis 5:4

and the days of Adam after he begat Seth were eight hundred years, and
he begat sons and daughters:

Could you use some sort of mechanical chest compression as an aid.
Sorta like the portable Iron Lung?   Put some sort of flex tubing
around the 'aquanauts' chest.  Cyclically compress it  and it will
push enough on the chest wall to support breathing?????

You'd have to trust your breather,  but in space, you have to trust
your suit anyway.

# I hope I gave you a fairly solid answer to this one: I simply don't agree
# with the embodied version of a Satan who is a separate creation or a force.

# And there are quite physical descriptions of Heaven and Hell in the
# Holy Qur'an, the Bible, etc.  There have been times in the spiritual
# and intellectual evolution of the modern human when these physical
# descriptions of Heaven, Hell, and Satan were taken quite literally
# and that *worked* for the time.  As I mentioned in the Tradition
# cited above, for example, it was sufficient in the absence of a theory
# about germs and disease spread by worms to simply describe the "evil"
# which was passed to a consumer of spoiled food as "satanic."

     Which begs the question: if Satan in this case is
     metaphorical, how can you be certain Allah is not
     the same way?

# The bottom line here, however, is that describing a spiritual plane
# in human language is something like describing "color" to a person
# who has been blind from birth.  You may want to read the book
# FLATLAND (if you haven't already) or THE DRAGON'S EGG.  The first
# is intended as a light hearted description of a mathematical con-
# cept...

[some deleted for space saving]

# When language fails because it cannot be used to adequately describe
# another dimension which cannot be experienced by the speakers, then
# such conventions as metaphor, allegory, and the like come to be
# necessary.  The "unseen" is described in terms which have reference`
# and meaning for the reader/listener.  But, like all models, a compro-
# mise must be made when speaking metaphorically: clarity and directness
# of meaning, equivalence of perception, and the like are all
# crippled.  But what else can you do?

     This is why I asked the above.  How would you then
     know God exists as a spirit or being rather than
     just being metaphorical?  I mean, it's okay to say
     "well, Satan is just metaphorical," but then you
     have to justify this belief AND justify that God is
     not some metaphor for something else.

     I say this because there are many, many instances of
     Satan described as a being (such as the tormentor in 
     the Old Testament book of Job, or the temptor in the
     New Testament Gospels).  In the same way, God too is
     described as a being (or spirit.)  How am I to know
     one is metaphorical and not the other.

     Further, belief in God isn't a bar to evil.  Let's
     consider the case of Satanists: even if Satan were
     metaphorical, the Satanist would have to believe
     in God to justify this belief.  Again, we have a 
     case where someone does believe in God, but by
     religious standards, they are "evil."  If Bobby
     does see this, let him address this question also.

[deleted some more on "metaphor"]

Stephen

    _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/   _/       _/    * Atheist
   _/        _/    _/   _/ _/ _/ _/     * Libertarian
  _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/   _/   _/  _/      * Pro-individuality
       _/  _/     _/  _/       _/       * Pro-responsibility
_/_/_/_/  _/      _/ _/       _/ Jr.    * and all that jazz...

There are several public domain utilities available at your usual
archive site that allow 'extraction' of single frames from a .gl
file, check in the 'graphics' directories under *grasp.  The problem 
is that the .clp files you generate cannot be decoded by any of 
the many pd format converters I have used. Any hint welcome!
Let me know if you have problems locating the utilities.
Hope it helps.

Well, it's obvious that you *don't* attempt, otherwise you would be aware
that they *don't* all "loudly [claim] to be the One True Christian".

I've tried to avoid using the phrase "is/is not christian" because of these
ownership issues; instead, I've tried the phrase "Nicene christianity" in an
attempt to identify the vast majority of "christianity" which has roughly
similar viewpoints on the core theological issues.  The JWs do not fall
within this group and in fact espouse a position known as Arianism, which is
rejected by all the nicene churches and virtually everyone else as well.

I just got out of the Army. Go signal corps or Intelligence; 
photointelligence interpretation. If you go ADA you might get to play with 
rockets but space will look pretty far away dug in the mud next to a grunt 
protecting the foward troops from low flying objects. Good Luck  
 
To compute this, and many other astronomical things, go and get (x)ephem written
by Elwood C. Downey. It is e.g. on export.lcs.mit.edu

   My understanding is that the 'expected errors' are basically
   known bugs in the warning system software - things are checked
   that don't have the right values in yet because they aren't
   set till after launch, and suchlike. Rather than fix the code
   and possibly introduce new bugs, they just tell the crew
   'ok, if you see a warning no. 213 before liftoff, ignore it'.

Good grief. And I thought the Shuttle software was known for being
well-engineered. If this is actually the case, every member of the
programming team should be taken out and shot.

(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
maturity, I strongly doubt that this is the case).

Have you considered the Apple Laserwriter IIg. We use it for all our B&W
image printing.

Every aircraft has flight constraints for speed/AOA/power.  When
graphed, these define the 'flight envelope' of that aircraft,
presumably so named because the graphed line encloses (envelopes) the
area on the graph that represents conditions where the aircraft
doesn't fall out of the sky.  Hence, 'pushing the envelope' becomes
'operating at (or beyond) the edge of the flight (or operational)
envelope'. 

Note that the envelope isn't precisely known until someone actually
flies the airplane in those regions -- up to that point, all there are
are the theoretical predictions.  Hence, one of the things test pilots
do for a living is 'push the envelope' to find out how close the
correspondence between the paper airplane and the metal one is -- in
essence, 'pushing back' the edges of the theoretical envelope to where
the airplane actually starts to fail to fly.  Note, too, that this is
done is a quite calculated and careful way; flight tests are generally
carefully coreographed and just what is going to be 'pushed' and how
far is precisely planned (despite occasional deviations from plans,
such as the 'early' first flight of the F-16 during its high-speed
taxi tests).

I'm sure Mary can tell you everything you ever wanted to know about
this process (and then some).

-- 

IMO, a Christian has no need of weapons.  I know it is very contrary to the
American NRA ethos of the right to bear arms, but Christians should rely on
the strength of God to protect them.  Note that I say *should*.  We are
inherently insecure but I feel that that is not proper justification to be
armed to the teeth.  A Christian should not have to rely on physical weapons
to defend himself.  A Christian should rely on his faith and intelligence.
For instance, I have the faith that God will protect me but God also gave
me the intelligence to know not to go walking down that dark alley at night.
To jump off a cliff and say that God will save me would be putting God to the
test.  And who are we to test God?

: Well,
: 
: 42 is 101010 binary, and who would forget that its the
: answer to the Question of "Life, the Universe, and Everything else."
: That is to quote Douglas Adams in a round about way.
: 
: Of course the Question has not yet been discovered...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
But it WAS discovered (sort of).  The question was "What is 7 times 8?"
When Arthur Dent objected that this was, unfortunately, factually
inaccurate, the effort to discover the question was begun all over.
This last effort was, I believe, likely to take far longer than
the lifespan of the universe, in fact several lifespans of same!
--
Mark Wilson, Online Computer Systems.  1-800-922-9204 or 1-301-601-2215
(Try email address mark@ocsmd.ocs.com....)
This file .disclaims everything signed with my .signature, I .mean it!

I would like a list of Bible contadictions from those of you who dispite
being free from Christianity are well versed in the Bible.

	This is not  strickly correct. Only by incorrect application of the 
rules of language, does it seem to work.

	The Mercedes in the first premis, and the one in the second are NOT 
the same Mercedes. 

	In your case, 

	A = B
	C = D
	
	A and D are NOT equal. One is a name of a person, the other the
name of a object. You can not simply extract a word without taking the 
context into account. 

	Of course, your case doesn't imply that A = D.

	In his case, A does equal D.

	Try again...

---

These laws written for the Israelites, God's chosen people whom God had
expressly set apart from the rest of the world.  The Israelites were a
direct witness to God's existence.  To disobey God after KNOWing that God
is real would be an outright denial of God and therefore immediately punishable.
Remember, these laws were written for a different time and applied only to 
God's chosen people.  But Jesus has changed all of that.  We are living in the
age of grace.  Sin is no longer immediately punishable by death.  There is
repentance and there is salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.  And not just
for a few chosen people.  Salvation is available to everyone, Jew and Gentile
alike.

I pointed out the secession movement in Aceh which has also been
brutally dealt with in the past by the Indonesian government.  The
harshly with all secessionist movements.
the evidence, it appears to me that the Indonesian government has dealt
very harshly with all secession movements.

I know that the head of the Indonesian armed forces for a very long time
was Benny Murdani -- a "Christian".  Indonesia has been heavy handed in
East Timor for a long time , even when Murdani was head of the armed
forces.  The people who make up the
Indonesian government are in general motivated by national interests,
not religious ones.

Don't get too excited; Signetics, not Motorola, gave the 68070 its number.
The 68070, if I understand rightly, uses the 68000 instruction set, and has
an on-chip serial port and DMA.  (It will run at up to 15 MHz--I'm typing
at a computer using a 68070 running at that rate, so I know that it can
do so--so I seriously doubt the clock rate that ricardo@rchland.vnet.ibm.com
claims.)

This may be a fairly routine request on here, but I'm looking for a fast
polygon routine to be used in a 3D game.  I have one that works right now, but
its very slow.  Could anyone point me to one, pref in ASM that is fairly well
documented and flexible?
	Thanx,
            //Lucas.

Do you have Weitek's address/phone number?  I'd like to get some information
about this chip.

OK, I don't use CView anymore, but I saw that no one had explaind this
"bug" in the thread, so here goes:

It is NOT the fault of CView.  It is DOS!  If you leave a file open on a
floppy drive, then change the disk and do something which updates or closes
that file, you have a good chance of getting part of the directory and FAT
from the other disk written to the new disk.  This has always been true,
and has destroyed data under other programs, not just CView.

The only thing CView can do to improve the situation is to try not to leave
files open unless it's actively using them (ie, reading and decoding).

No it in the way it is usually used. In my view, you are saying here that
driving a car requires faith that the car drives.
 
For me it is a conclusion, and I have no more faith in it than I have in the
premises and the argument used.
 
No, that's a word game. The term god is used in a different way usually.
When you use a different definition it is your thing, but until it is
commonly accepted you would have to say the way I define god is ... and
that does not exist, it is existence itself, so I say it does not exist.
 
Interestingly, there are those who say that "existence exists" is one of
the indubitable statements possible.
 
Further, saying god is existence is either a waste of time, existence is
already used and there is no need to replace it by god, or you are implying
more with it, in which case your definition and your argument so far
are incomplete, making it a fallacy.
 
Where does that follow? Aren't observations based on the assumption
that something exists?
 
And wouldn't you say there is a level of definition that the assumption
"god is" is meaningful. If not, I would reject that concept anyway.

That's closer, but I dislike "apps".  "software" (vs. "hardware")
would be better.  Would that engulf alt.graphics.pixutils?  Or would
that be "programmer"?

I don't know if traffic is really heavy enough to warrant a newsgroup
split.  Look how busy comp.graphics.research is (not).

It's true that a lot of the traffic here is rehashing FAQs and
discussing things that would probably be better diverted to
system-specific groups, but I don't know whether a split would help
or hurt that cause.

Maybe we need a comp.graphics.RTFB for all those people who can't be
bothered to read the fine books out there.  Right, Dr. Rogers? :-)

Not to be too snide about it, but I think this Christianity must
   be a very convenient religion, very maliable and suitable for
   any occassion since it seems one can take it any way one wants
   to go with it and follow whichever bits one pleases and
   reinterpret the bits that don't match with one's desires.  It
   is, in fact, so convenient that, were I capable of believing
   in a god, I might consider going for some brand of Christianity.
   The only difficulty left then, of course, is picking which sect
   to join.  There are just so many.
    
   Dean Kaflowitz

Yes, Christianity is convenient.  Following the teachings of Jesus
Christ and the Ten Commandments is convenient.  Trying to love in a
hateful world is convenient.  Turning the other cheek is convenient.  So
convenient that it is burdensome at times.

Dave.
 
Gordon Banks quoted and added...

gb> In article <C50M5p.Eoz@acsu.buffalo.edu>
gb>
gb> >
gb> >  Christians have professed for more than 1660 years the Nicene
gb> >Creed, a statement of beliefs drawn from the truths of Scripture
gb> >that was officially accepted by a council of church bishops
gb> >and leaders at Nicea in 325 A.D. Christians still recite
gb> >this creed regularly in public worship.
gb> >
gb>
gb> So prior to 325 AD there were no Christians?  Or all of them really
gb> believed the Nicean creed even before it was formulated?  Do you
gb> really believe such an absurdity?  I'm afraid you do.  

     No.
     I really don't. Honest.

     The Nicene Creed, as I mentioned above, is a brief statement of
     beliefs that are derived from Scripture. That this certain list
     did not exist earlier does not indicate that the beliefs summarized 
     in in did not exist before the formula was derived.

The European Space Agency has involvement with remote earth 
observation, and I presume this includes surveillance (optical etc.).
So it's not just the US/USSR(ex) who are in the game.

But what *is* the game? What can be done with space observation?
The military functions of missile spotting, troop spotting etc. are well
documented, but what about anything else?

The biggest eg I can think of is to get a  metal sensing sat over a
paying country and scan their territory for  precious metals.

More importantly, if radar can spot water vapour (clouds), presumably
a radar based sat will be capable of spotting rivers,open water and 
*underground water* from space. This would be a positive life saver
for African or other drought affected countries. Implementing a
clean water and irrigation program would be of imense benifit to such
countries and should cut down mortalities considerably.

So how about it? Is there a charity or government agency that would
pay for a third world country to have their minerals and water deposits
mapped?

Or is this still sci-fi?

Mail replies would be great.

Thought for the day: Thermal energy needs water to make steam so sstick
it in the ocean!

To:All

Hi,

Does anybody have the source code to the externel processes that comes with 3D 
Studio, and mabe som kind of DOC for writing the processes your self.

/Lars

+++ Author: Lars_Jorgensen@p7.syntax.bbs.bad.se, Syntax BBS, Denmark

<MUNCH!>

It would be funny if it wasn't so damn *NASTY*; and as non-xian as I am, 
it's hard to believe that someone is pushing black is white and freedom
is slavery so blatantly.

I note that you make no such case as you claim can be 'even more
easily made'.  Yes, the argument can (and has) been made that current
government policy creates even larger market barriers than there were
in the first place, but there is no such term as 'government failure',
since the government can change policies whenever it pleases.  The
market doesn't do that and is governed by (relatively) well-understood
forces.  This libertopican bilge about 'moral arguments' about
taxation, etc., is, at bottom, so much simplistic economic thinking.
It can only be 'justified' by cliche derision of anyone who knows more
about economics than the libertopian -- which is what invariably
happens.  Tripe a la Tommy, the new libertopian dish.

Wherever do you get this inflated idea of your own importance?

-- 

[...]

Wait a minute, Doug.  I know you are better informed than that.  The US 
has never invaded Nicaragua (as far as I know).  We liberated Grenada 
from the Cubans	to protect US citizens there and to prevent the completion 
of a strategic air strip.  Panama we invaded, true (twice this century).  
Vietnam?  We were invited in by the government of S. Vietnam.  (I guess 
we "invaded" Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, eh?)  Mexico?  We have 
invaded Mexico 2 or 3 times, once this century, but there were no missiles 
for anyone to shoot over here at that time.  Hawaii?  We liberated it from 
Spain.

So if you mean by the word "invaded" some sort of military action where
we cross someone's border, you are right 5 out of 6.  But normally
"invaded" carries a connotation of attacking an autonomous nation.
(If some nation "invades" the U.S. Virgin Islands, would they be
invading the Virgin Islands or the U.S.?)  So from this point of
view, your score falls to 2 out of 6 (Mexico, Panama).

[...]

No, it's someone who believes in "peace-at-all-costs".  In other words,
a person who would have supported giving Hitler not only Austria and
Czechoslakia, but Poland too if it could have averted the War.  And one
who would allow Hitler to wipe all *all* Jews, slavs, and political 
dissidents in areas he controlled as long as he left the rest of us alone.

"Is it supposed to be bad to be a peace-nik," you ask?  Well, it depends
on what your values are.  If you value life over liberty, peace over
freedom, then I guess not.  But if liberty and freedom mean more to you
than life itself; if you'd rather die fighting for liberty than live
under a tyrant's heel, then yes, it's "bad" to be a peace-nik.

The problem with most peace-niks it they consider those of us who are
not like them to be "bad" and "unconscionable".  I would not have any
argument or problem with a peace-nik if they held to their ideals and
stayed out of all conflicts or issues, especially those dealing with 
the national defense.  But no, they are not willing to allow us to
legitimately hold a different point-of-view.  They militate and 
many times resort to violence all in the name of peace.  (What rank
hypocrisy!)  All to stop we "warmongers" who are willing to stand up 
and defend our freedoms against tyrants, and who realize that to do
so requires a strong national defense.

Time to get off the soapbox now.  :)

[...]

Regards,

Jim, please, that's a lame explanation of the trinity that Jesus provides
above. Baptizing people in the name of three things != trinity. If
this is the case, then I'm wrong, I assumed that trinity implies that
God is three entities, and yet the same.

Cheers,
Kent

In pure speculation, I would guess cautions based on hazardous
pre-launch ops would qualify.  Something like "Caution:  SRBs
have just been armed."  

: >Hi Netters,
: >
: >I'm building a CAD package and need a 3D graphics library that can handle
: >some rudimentry tasks, such as hidden line removal, shading, animation, etc.
: >
: >Can you please offer some recommendations?
: >
: >I'll also need contact info (name, address, email...) if you can find it.
: >
: >Thanks
: >
: >(Please Post Your Responses, in case others have same need)
: >
: >Bob Carpenter
: >

The following is extracted from sumex-aim.stanford.edu.  It should also be on
the mirrors.  I think there is source for some applications that may have some
bearing on your project.  Poke around the source directory.  I've never used
this package, nor do I know anyone who did, but the price is right :-)

					Cheinan

Abstracts of files as of Thu Apr  1 03:11:39 PST 1993
Directory: info-mac/source

#### BINHEX     3d-grafsys-121.hqx   ****

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 14:13:07 +0100
From: Christian Steffen Ove Franz <cfranz@iiic.ethz.ch>
To: questions@mac.archive.umich.edu
Subject: 3d GrafSys 1.21 in incoming directory
A 3d GrafSys short description follows:

Programmers 3D GrafSys Vers 1.21 now available. 

Version 1.21 is mainly a bugfix for THINK C users. THIS VERSION
NOW RUNS WITH THINK C, I PROMISE! The Docs now contain a chapter for
C programmers on how to use the GrafSys. If you have problems, feel free 
to contact me.
The other change is that I removed the FastPerfTrig calls from
the FPU version to make it run faster.

Those of you who don't know what all this is about, read on.

********

Programmers 3D GrafSys -- What it is:

Didn't you always have this great game in mind where you needed some way of 
drawing three-dimensional scenes? 

Didn't you always want to write this program that visualized the structure 
of three-dimensional molecules?

And didn't the task of writing your 3D conversions routines keep you from 
actually doing it?

Well if the answer to any of the above questions is 'Yes, but what has it to 
do with this package???' , read on.

GrafSys is a THINK Pascal/C library that provides you with simple routines 
for building, saving, loading (as resources), and manipulating 
(independent rotating around arbitrary achses, translating and scaling) 
three dimensional objects. Objects, not just simple single-line drawings.

GrafSys supports full 3D clipping, animation and some (primitive) hidden-
line/hidden-surface drawing with simple commands from within YOUR PROGRAM.

GrafSys also supports full eye control with both perspective and parallel
projections (If you can't understand a word, don't worry, this is just showing
off for those who know about it. The docs that come with it will try to explain
what it all means later on). 

GrafSys provides a powerful interface to supply your own drawing routines with
data so you can use GrafSys to do the 3D transformations and your own routines
to do the actual drawing. (Note that GrafSys also provides drawing routines so
you don't have to worry about that if you don't want to)

GrafSys 1.11 comes in two versions. One for the 881 and 020 or above 
processors. The other version uses fixed-point arithmetic and runs on any Mac.
Both versions are *100% source compatibel*. 

GrafSys comes with an extensive manual that teaches you the fundamentals of 3D
graphics and how to use the package.

If demand is big enough I will convert the GrafSys to an object-class library. 
However, I feelt that the way it is implemented now makes it easier to use for
a lot more people than the select 'OOP-Guild'.

GrafSys is free for any non-commercial usage. Read the documentation enclosed.

I don't think anyone really cares about the solid structure of his
sermon.  It's the deaths he's responsible for that concern most people.

You've made me curious.  What does this say about me?

Charles Manson used revelation as well.  Do we see a pattern here?
I wonder of Koresh liked the Beatles?

	[long list of Biblical references which
	 impressed me tremendously but were deleted
	 in the interests of common sense.]

Koresh was a nut, okay?  Just because he found ways for the Bible
to backup his rantings does not make him any less of a kook.

I'll type this very slowly so that you can understand.  He either set
the fire himself or told his followers to do so.  Don't make him out to
be a martyr.  He did not "get killed", he killed himself.

The evil was inside the compound.  All that "thou shalt not kill" stuff.

In reference to the limits of acceleration with guns launching solid
rockets as payloads.  Thiokol provided me with samples and data on
a reinforcement to solid motor grains for high accelerations.  Solid
motor propellants usually have a substantial percentage of 
aluminum in the mix.  For example, the Space Shuttle SRBs are 16 percent
Aluminum.  The technique is to use a 'foamed aluminum' structure.
The structure looks like the inverse of a set of bubbles (an I suspect
some bubbling process is used to form it).  In other words, if you made
a bunch of bubbles in molten aluminum, then froze it, this is what
you get.  It forms a strong network of effectively aluminum wires in
all directions.  The remaining solid fuel mix is infiltrated into
the voids, and you get aluminum-reinforced solid propellant.  The
foamed-aluminum makes up about 6 percent of the total propellant,
so there is still aluminum particles in the bulk grain.  The major
improvement is the higher resistance to grain cracking, which is the
principal failure mode for solid propellant.

Dani Eder

I'm looking for a database called "Micro World Data Bank II", a database
with digital map information containing 178,068 latitude, longitude points.
It is said to be in the public domain. If anyone knows a place where I can
get it (preferably FTP/gopher/mailserver etc.; otherwise snail mail) please
let me know. I you have it yourself and are willing to send me the file,
drop me a line.

I'll be using it with a program called VERSAMAP by Charles H. Culberson.
If anyone knows of another detailed database that can be used with this
program (preferably PD), I would be very interested.

Replies by e-mail please, directly to me, I don't read this group regularly.
If there's interest I'll post a summary, of course.

...

	You can tell, folks, when the man has run out of reason:
	attack the man's beliefs (in legal terminology, argument
	ad hominem:  attack the man, not what he did that has yet to
	be proven illegal)>

	WRONGo.  Remember the fire movie a couple of years ago?
	"Backdraft"?  The scene in the factory with propane gas
	coming out of pipes and gasoline all over the floor,
	with a 750 degree flame front overhead?

		Note that it did not flash all at once?

	Fires ignite and burn unpredictably.
	Gases (like tear gas) mix and distribute unevenly.
		And flash unevenly.

	You are not a fire analyst.  You cannnot tell.
		(NB:  Neither am I.  And I cannot tell
		Nor is the FBI spokesman
		Nor is Reno
		Maybe we all should shut up and get a
			forensics analysis first.

	Yes,. there was a flash:  in one room, just pumped full of it.,

:P
:P>My favorite reply to the "you are being too literal-minded" complaint is
:P>that if the bible is really inspired by God and if it is really THAT
:P>important to him, then he would make damn certain all the translators and
:P>scribes and people interpreting and copying it were getting it right,
:P>literally.  If not, then why should I put ANY merit at all in something
:P>that has been corrupted over and over and over by man even if it was
:P>originally inspired by God?
:P
:PThe "corrupted over and over" theory is pretty weak.  Comparison of the
:Pcurrent hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text
:Phas in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia.  This
:Pshouldn't be all that suprising; people who believe in a text in this manner
:Pare likely to makes some pains to make good copies.

Women who are known not to want abortion services, for example,
might be judged to be more likely to require prenatal care &
coverage for childbirth... which can be an order of magnitude
more expensive than abortion. 

This topic should really be restricted to talk.abortion, which
exists to relieve t.r.m & t.p.m of abortion flamage.  

LIST OF KILLINGS IN THE NAME OF RELIGION 
1. Iran-Iraq War: 1,000,000
2. Civil War in Sudan: 1,000,000
3, Riots in India-Pakistan in 1947: 1,000,000
4. Massacares in Bangladesh in 1971: 1,000,000
5. Inquistions in America in 1500s: x million (x=??)
6. Crusades: ??

I am sure that people can add a lot more to the list.
I wonder what Bobby has to say about the above. 
Standard Excuses will not be accepted.
-- Naren

(WEBSTER:  myth:  "a traditional or legendary story...
           ...a belief...whose truth is accepted uncritically.")

How does that qualify?
Indeed, it's almost oxymoronic...a rather amusing instance.
I've found that most atheists hold almost no atheist-views as
"accepted uncritically," especially the few that are legend.
Many are trying to explain basic truths, as myths do, but
they don't meet the other criterions.
Also...

You accuse him of referencing mythology, then you procede to
launch your own xtian mythology.  (This time meeting all the
requirements of myth.)

Ah, but not everyone "knows" that god exists.  So you have
a fallacy.

And that makes it true?  Holding with the Bible rules out controversy?
Read the FAQ.  If you've read it, you missed something, so re-read.
(Not a bad suggestion for anyone...I re-read it just before this.)

...should I repeat what I wrote above for the sake of getting
it across?  You may trust the Bible, but your trusting it doesn't
make it any more credible to me.

If the Bible says that everyone knows, that's clearly reason
to doubt the Bible, because not everyone "knows" your alleged
god's alleged existance.

1) No, they don't have to ignore the Bible.  The Bible is far
from universally accepted.  The Bible is NOT a proof of god;
it is only a proof that some people have thought that there
was a god.  (Or does it prove even that?  They might have been
writing it as series of fiction short-stories.  As in the
case of Dionetics.)  Assuming the writers believed it, the
only thing it could possibly prove is that they believed it.
And that's ignoring the problem of whether or not all the
interpretations and Biblical-philosophers were correct.

2) There are people who have truly never heard of the Bible.

3) Again, read the FAQ.

Bzzt...wrong answer!
Gravity is directly THERE.  It doesn't stop exerting a direct and
rationally undeniable influence if you ignore it.  God, on the
other hand, doesn't generally show up in the supermarket, except
on the tabloids.  God doesn't exert a rationally undeniable influence.
Gravity is obvious; gods aren't.

No, human reason hasn't always come back to the existance of
"God"; it has usually come back to the existance of "god".
In other words, it doesn't generally come back to the xtian
god, it comes back to whether there is any god.  And, in much
of oriental philosophic history, it generally doesn't pop up as
the idea of a god so much as the question of what natural forces
are and which ones are out there.  From a world-wide view,
human nature just makes us wonder how the universe came to
be and/or what force(s) are currently in control.  A natural
tendancy to believe in "God" only exists in religious wishful
thinking.

Xtianity is no more reasonable than most other religions, and
it's reasonableness certainly doesn't merit eminence.
Divine justice...well, it only seems just to those who already
believe in the divinity.
First, not all atheists believe the same things about human
nature. Second, whether most atheists are correct or not,
YOU certainly are not correct on human nature.  You are, at
the least, basing your views on a completely eurocentric
approach.  Try looking at the outside world as well when
you attempt to sum up all of humanity.

Ocean Reconnaissance Launch Surprises West
Space News, April 5-11, 1993, p.2
[Excerpts]
     Russia launched its first ocean reconnaissance satellite in 26 months 
March 30, confounding Western analysts who had proclaimed the program dead. 
     The Itar-TASS news agency announced the launch of Cosmos 2238 from 
Plesetsk Cosmodrome, but provided little description of the payload's mission. 
     However, based on the satellite's trajectory, Western observers 
identified it as a military spacecraft designed to monitor electronic 
emissions from foreign naval ships in order to track their movement. 
     Geoff Perry of the Kettering Group in England... [said]  Western 
observers had concluded that no more would be launched. But days after the 
last [such] satellite re-entered the Earth's atmosphere, Cosmos 2238 was 
launched. 

"Cosmos-2238" Satellite Launched for Defense Ministry
Moscow ITAR-TASS World Service in Russian  1238 GMT 30 March 1993
Translated in FBIS-SOV-93-060, p.27
by ITAR-TASS correspondent Veronika Romanenkova
     Moscow, 30 March -- The Cosmos-2238 satellite was launched at 1600 Moscow 
time today from the Baykonur by a "Tsiklon-M" carrier rocket. An ITAR-TASS 
correspondent was told at the press center of Russia's space-military forces 
that the satellite was launched in the interests of the Russian Defense 
Ministry. 

But, the goal need not be a subjective one.  For instance, the goal of
natural morality is the propogation of a species, perhaps.  It wasn't
really until the more intelligent animals came along that some revisions
to this were necessary.  Intelligent animals have different needs than
the others, and hence a morality suited to them must be a bit more
complicated than "the law of the jungle."  I don't think that
self-actualization is so subjective as you might think.  And, by
objectivity, I am assuming that the ideals of any such system could be
carried out completely.

I know people hate it when someone says somethings like "there was an article 
about that somewhere a while ago" but I'm going to say it anyway.  I read an
article on this subject, almost certainly in Space News, and something like
six months ago.  If anyone is really interested in the subject I can probably
hunt it down given enough motivation.

  There was an interesting article in Scientific American some time ago
about breathing liquid. (It was a few months before _The Abyss_ came out.)
As far as I can remember, they mentioned three things that were difficult
to do at once with a substitute breathing fluid:
  - low viscosity --- if it's too difficult to force the fluid in & out 
    of the lungs, you can't extract enough oxygen to power your own
    breathing effort (let alone anything else)

  - diffusion rate --- obviously, not all the air in your lungs is
    expelled when you breathe out; and the part that isn't expelled
    is the part that's nearest the walls of the alveoli. (alveolus?)
    So the trip from the blood vessels to the new air has to be done
    by diffusion of the gas through the fluid. Apparently oxygen
    tends to diffuse more readily than CO2, so even if you can get enough
    oxygen in, you might not be able to get enough CO2 out.

  - oxygen/CO2 capacity --- you have to be able to dissolve enough
    gas per unit volume. 

  Oh, and of course, your new breathing fluid must not irritate the lungs
or interfere with their healing or anything like that... 

I need a complete list of all the polygons
that there are, in order.

I'll summarize to the net.

--------------------------------------------------------
   "If only I had been compiled with the '-g' option."

It only falls apart if you attempt to apply it.  This doesn't mean that
an objective system can't exist.  It just means that one cannot be
implemented.

Well said.
 
Okay, Del, so Michael was being unfair, but you are being unfair back.  
He is taking college courses now, I presume he is studying hard, and
his postings reveal that he is *somewhat* hip to the technical issues
of astronautics.  Plus, he is attentively following the erudite
discourse of the Big Brains who post to sci.space; is it not
inevitable that he will get a splendid technical education from
reading the likes of you and me? [1]

Like others involved in sci.space, Mr. Adams shows symptoms of being a
fledgling member of the technoculture, and I think he's soaking it up
fast.  I was a young guy with dreams once, and they led me to get a
technical education to follow them up.  Too bad I wound up in an
assembly-line job stamping out identical neutrinos day after day...
(-:

[1] Though rumors persist that Del and I are both pseudonyms of Fred
McCall.

Sorry, I don't follow your reasoning.  You are proposing to punish people
*before* they commit a crime?  What justification do you have for this?

Archive-name: space/astronaut
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:02 $

HOW TO BECOME AN ASTRONAUT

    First the short form, authored by Henry Spencer, then an official NASA
    announcement.

    Q. How do I become an astronaut?

    A. We will assume you mean a NASA astronaut, since it's probably
    impossible for a non-Russian to get into the cosmonaut corps (paying
    passengers are not professional cosmonauts), and the other nations have
    so few astronauts (and fly even fewer) that you're better off hoping to
    win a lottery. Becoming a shuttle pilot requires lots of fast-jet
    experience, which means a military flying career; forget that unless you
    want to do it anyway. So you want to become a shuttle "mission
    specialist".

    If you aren't a US citizen, become one; that is a must.  After that,
    the crucial thing to remember is that the demand for such jobs vastly
    exceeds the supply.  NASA's problem is not finding qualified people,
    but thinning the lineup down to manageable length.	It is not enough
    to be qualified; you must avoid being *dis*qualified for any reason,
    many of them in principle quite irrelevant to the job.

    Get a Ph.D.  Specialize in something that involves getting your hands
    dirty with equipment, not just paper and pencil.  Forget computer
    programming entirely; it will be done from the ground for the fore-
    seeable future.  Degree(s) in one field plus work experience in
    another seems to be a frequent winner.

    Be in good physical condition, with good eyesight.	(DO NOT get a
    radial keratomy or similar hack to improve your vision; nobody knows
    what sudden pressure changes would do to RKed eyes, and long-term
    effects are poorly understood.  For that matter, avoid any other
    significant medical unknowns.)  If you can pass a jet-pilot physical,
    you should be okay; if you can't, your chances are poor.

    Practise public speaking, and be conservative and conformist in
    appearance and actions; you've got a tough selling job ahead, trying
    to convince a cautious, conservative selection committee that you
    are better than hundreds of other applicants.  (And, also, that you
    will be a credit to NASA after you are hired:  public relations is
    a significant part of the job, and NASA's image is very prim and
    proper.)  The image you want is squeaky-clean workaholic yuppie.
    Remember also that you will need a security clearance at some point,
    and Security considers everybody guilty until proven innocent.
    Keep your nose clean.

    Get a pilot's license and make flying your number one hobby;
    experienced pilots are known to be favored even for non-pilot jobs.

    Work for NASA; of 45 astronauts selected between 1984 and 1988,
    43 were military or NASA employees, and the remaining two were
    a NASA consultant and Mae Jemison (the first black female astronaut).
    If you apply from outside NASA and miss, but they offer you a job
    at NASA, ***TAKE IT***; sometimes in the past this has meant "you
    do look interesting but we want to know you a bit better first".

    Think space:  they want highly motivated people, so lose no chance
    to demonstrate motivation.

    Keep trying.  Many astronauts didn't make it the first time.

    NASA
    National Aeronautics and Space Administration
    Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center
    Houston, Texas

    Announcement for Mission Specialist and Pilot Astronaut Candidates
    ==================================================================

    Astronaut Candidate Program
    ---------------------------

    The National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) has a need for
    Pilot Astronaut Candidates and Mission Specialist Astronaut Candidates
    to support the Space Shuttle Program. NASA is now accepting on a
    continuous basis and plans to select astronaut candidates as needed.

    Persons from both the civilian sector and the military services will be
    considered.

    All positions are located at the Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center in
    Houston, Texas, and will involved a 1-year training and evaluation
    program.

    Space Shuttle Program Description
    ---------------------------------

    The numerous successful flights of the Space Shuttle have demonstrated
    that operation and experimental investigations in space are becoming
    routine. The Space Shuttle Orbiter is launched into, and maneuvers in
    the Earth orbit performing missions lastling up to 30 days. It then
    returns to earth and is ready for another flight with payloads and
    flight crew.

    The Orbiter performs a variety of orbital missions including deployment
    and retrieval of satellites, service of existing satellites, operation
    of specialized laboratories (astronomy, earth sciences, materials
    processing, manufacturing), and other operations. These missions will
    eventually include the development and servicing of a permanent space
    station. The Orbiter also provides a staging capability for using higher
    orbits than can be achieved by the Orbiter itself. Users of the Space
    Shuttle's capabilities are both domestic and foreign and include
    government agencies and private industries.

    The crew normally consists of five people - the commander, the pilot,
    and three mission specialists. On occasion additional crew members are
    assigned. The commander, pilot, and mission specialists are NASA
    astronauts.

    Pilot Astronaut

    Pilot astronauts server as both Space Shuttle commanders and pilots.
    During flight the commander has onboard responsibility for the vehicle,
    crew, mission success and safety in flight. The pilot assists the
    commander in controlling and operating the vehicle. In addition, the
    pilot may assist in the deployment and retrieval of satellites utilizing
    the remote manipulator system, in extra-vehicular activities, and other
    payload operations.

    Mission Specialist Astronaut

    Mission specialist astronauts, working with the commander and pilot,
    have overall responsibility for the coordination of Shuttle operations
    in the areas of crew activity planning, consumables usage, and
    experiment and payload operations. Mission specialists are required to
    have a detailed knowledge of Shuttle systems, as well as detailed
    knowledge of the operational characteristics, mission requirements and
    objectives, and supporting systems and equipment for each of the
    experiments to be conducted on their assigned missions. Mission
    specialists will perform extra-vehicular activities, payload handling
    using the remote manipulator system, and perform or assist in specific
    experimental operations.

    ===========================

    Basic Qualification Requirements
    --------------------------------

    Applicants MUST meet the following minimum requirements prior to
    submitting an application.

    Mission Specialist Astronaut Candidate:

    1. Bachelor's degree from an accredited institution in engineering,
    biological science, physical science or mathematics. Degree must be
    followed by at least three years of related progressively responsible,
    professional experience. An advanced degree is desirable and may be
    substituted for part or all of the experience requirement (master's
    degree = 1 year, doctoral degree = 3 years). Quality of academic
    preparation is important.

    2. Ability to pass a NASA class II space physical, which is similar to a
    civilian or military class II flight physical and includes the following
    specific standards:

	 Distant visual acuity:
	      20/150 or better uncorrected,
	      correctable to 20/20, each eye.

	 Blood pressure:
	      140/90 measured in sitting position.

    3. Height between 58.5 and 76 inches.

    Pilot Astronaut Candidate:

    professional experience. An advanced degree is desirable. Quality of
    academic preparation is important.

    2. At least 1000 hours pilot-in-command time in jet aircraft. Flight
    test experience highly desirable.

    3. Ability to pass a NASA Class I space physical which is similar to a
    military or civilian Class I flight physical and includes the following

	      20/50 or better uncorrected

    4. Height between 64 and 76 inches.

    Citizenship Requirements

    Applications for the Astronaut Candidate Program must be citizens of
    the United States.

    Note on Academic Requirements

    Applicants for the Astronaut Candidate Program must meet the basic
    education requirements for NASA engineering and scientific positions --
    specifically: successful completion of standard professional curriculum
    in an accredited college or university leading to at least a bachelor's
    degree with major study in an appropriate field of engineering,
    biological science, physical science, or mathematics.

      The following degree fields, while related to engineering and the
    sciences, are not considered qualifying:
      - Degrees in technology (Engineering Technology, Aviation Technology,
	Medical Technology, etc.)
      - Degrees in Psychology (except for Clinical Psychology, Physiological
	Psychology, or Experimental Psychology which are qualifying).
      - Degrees in Nursing.
      - Degrees in social sciences (Geography, Anthropology, Archaeology, etc.)
      - Degrees in Aviation, Aviation Management or similar fields.

    Application Procedures
    ----------------------

    Civilian

    The application package may be obtained by writing to:

	NASA Johnson Space Center
	Astronaut Selection Office
	ATTN: AHX
	Houston, TX 77058

    Civilian applications will be accepted on a continuous basis. When NASA
    decides to select additional astronaut candidates, consideration will be
    given only to those applications on hand on the date of decision is
    made. Applications received after that date will be retained and
    considered for the next selection. Applicants will be notified annually
    of the opportunity to update their applications and to indicate
    continued interest in being considered for the program. Those applicants
    who do not update their applications annually will be dropped from
    consideration, and their applications will not be retained. After the
    preliminary screening of applications, additional information may be
    requested for some applicants, and person listed on the application as
    supervisors and references may be contacted.

    Active Duty Military

    Active duty military personnel must submit applications to their
    respective military service and not directly to NASA. Application
    procedures will be disseminated by each service.

    Selection
    ---------

    Personal interviews and thorough medical evaluations will be required
    for both civilian and military applicants under final consideration.
    Once final selections have been made, all applicants who were considered
    will be notified of the outcome of the process.

    Selection rosters established through this process may be used for the
    selection of additional candidates during a one year period following
    their establishment.

    General Program Requirements

    Selected applicants will be designated Astronaut Candidates and will be
    assigned to the Astronaut Office at the Johnson Space Center, Houston,
    Texas. The astronaut candidates will undergo a 1 year training and
    evaluation period during which time they will be assigned technical or
    scientific responsibilities allowing them to contribute substantially to
    ongoing programs. They will also participate in the basic astronaut
    training program which is designed to develop the knowledge and skills
    required for formal mission training upon selection for a flight. Pilot
    astronaut candidates will maintain proficiency in NASA aircraft during
    their candidate period.

    Applicants should be aware that selection as an astronaut candidate does
    not insure selection as an astronaut. Final selection as an astronaut
    will depend on satisfactory completion of the 1 year training and
    evaluation period. Civilian candidates who successfully complete the
    training and evaluation and are selected as astronauts will become
    permanent Federal employees and will be expected to remain with NASA for
    a period of at least five years. Civilian candidates who are not
    selected as astronauts may be placed in other positions within NASA
    depending upon Agency requirements and manpower constraints at that
    time. Successful military candidates will be detailed to NASA for a
    specified tour of duty.

    NASA has an affirmative action program goal of having qualified
    minorities and women among those qualified as astronaut candidates.
    Therefore, qualified minorities and women are encouraged to apply.

    Pay and Benefits
    ----------------

    Civilians

    Salaries for civilian astronaut candidates are based on the Federal
    Governments General Schedule pay scales for grades GS-11 through GS-14,
    and are set in accordance with each individuals academic achievements
    and experience.

    Other benefits include vacation and sick leave, a retirement plan, and
    participation in group health and life insurance plans.

    Military

    Selected military personnel will be detailed to the Johnson Space Center
    but will remain in an active duty status for pay, benefits, leave, and
    other similar military matters.

PPPPP    OOOOO  V     V  Persistance Of Vision Raytracer.
P    P  O     O V     V
P    P  O     O V     V
PPPPP   O     O V     V
P       O     O  V   V
P       O     O   V V
P        OOOOO     V

Available on archie and wuarchive in graphics type directories.

PS It's freeware.

--

: Currently, I use a shareware program called Graphics Workshop.
: What kinds of things will Hijaak do that these shareware programs
: will not do?

I also use Graphic Workshop and the only differences that I know of are that
Hijaak has screen capture capabilities and acn convert to/from a couple of
more file formats (don't know specifically which one).  In the April 13
issue of PC Magazine they test the twelve best selling image capture/convert
utilities, including Hijaak.

Does anyone know where I can FTP MPEG for DOS from?  Thanks for any
help in advance.  Email is preferred but posting is fine.

				Scott

The above is probably not the most representative paragraph, but I
thought I'd hop on, anyway...

What strikes me as self-contradicting in the fable of Lucifer's
fall - which, by the way, I seem to recall to be more speculation
than based on biblical text, but my ex RCism may be showing - is
that, as Benedikt pointed out, Lucifer had perfect nature, yet he
had the free will to "choose" evil.  But where did that choice come
from?

We know from Genesis that Eve was offered an opportunity to sin by a
tempter which many assume was Satan, but how did Lucifer discover,
invent, create, call the action what you will, something that God
had not given origin to?

Also, where in the Bible is there mention of Lucifer's free will?
We make a big fuss about mankind having free will, but it strikes me
as being an after-the-fact rationalisation, and in fact, like
salvation, not one that all Christians believe in identically.

At least in my mind, salvation and free will are very tightly
coupled, but then my theology was Roman Catholic...

Still, how do theologian explain Lucifer's fall?  If Lucifer had
perfect nature (did man?) how could he fall?  How could he execute an
act that (a) contradicted his nature and (b) in effect cause evil to
exist for the first time?

dillon comments that Space Food Sticks may have bad digestive properties.

I don't think so.  I think  most NASA food products were designed to
be low fiber 'zero-residue' products so as to minimize the difficulties
of waste disposal.  I'd doubt they'd deploy anything that caused whole sale
GI distress.  There aren't enough plastic baggies in the world for
a bad case of GI disease.

Hi... can anybody give me book or reference title to give me a start at 
fractal image compression technique. Helps will be appreciated... thanx

I was at an interesting seminar at work (UK's R.A.L. Space Science
Dept.) on this subject, specifically on a small-scale Solar Sail
proposed as a student space project. The guy giving the talk was keen to
generate interest in the project. I'll typein the handout he gave out at
the meeting. Here goes : 

			The Microlight Solar Sail
			-------------------------

1. Introduction
The solar sail is a well-established concept. Harnessing the pressure of
sunlight, a spacecraft would have unlimited range. In principle, such a
vehicle could explore the whole Solar System with zero fuel consumption.

However it is more difficult to design a practical solar sail than most
people realize. The pressure of sunlight is only about one kilogram per
square kilometer. Deploying and controlling the large area of aluminized
fabric which would be necessary to transport a 'conventional' type
spacecraft is a daunting task. This is why, despite the potential of hte
idea, no such craft has actually been launched to date.

2.Design
Recent advances in microelectronics make possible a different concept: a
tiny sail just a few metres in diameter which could be controlled purely
be electronics, with no mechanical parts. Several attitude control
methods are feasible: for example the pressure sunlight exerts on a
panel of solar cells varies according to whether power is being drawn.

The key components of the craft will be a minute CCD camera developed at
Edinburgh University which can act as both attitude sensor and data
gathering device; solar cells providing ~1 watt power for control and
communication; and a directional radio antenna etched onto the surface
of the sail itself. Launched as a piggyback payload, the total cost of
the mission can be limited to a few tens of thousands of dollars.

3.Missions
The craft would be capable of some ambitious missions. For example:
a) It could rendezvous with a nearby asteroid from the Apollo or Amor
groups. Closeup pictures could be transmitted back to Earth at a low bit
rate.
b) It could be steered into a lunar polar orbit. Previously unobserved
areas around the lunar poles could be viewed. By angling the sail to
reflect sunlight downwards, polar craters whose bases never receive
sunlight could be imaged. Bright reflections would confirm that
volatiles such as water ice have become trapped in these
locations.[Immensely valuable information for setting up a manned lunar
base, BTW]
c) It could be sent to rendezvous with a small asteroid or comet
nucleus. Impacting at low speed, a thin wire probe attached to the craft
causes it to rebound while capturing a tiny sample is a sharp-edged
tube, like performing a biopsy. Returning to Earth, the sail acts as an
ideal re-entry parachute: load per unit area 20 gm/m2 ensures that heat
is reradiated so efectively that the sail temperature cannot exceed ~300
deg C. The material sample is recovered, enclosed in a small insulating
container.

Contact: Colin Jack                              Tel. 0865-200447
Oxford Mathematical Designs, 131 High Street, Oxford OX1 4DH, England

This guy would love to hear from anyone interested in this project or
seeking details or anything, and would be most happy to send you more
information.

	Andy

-- 

Archive-name: atheism/introduction
Alt-atheism-archive-name: introduction

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

                          An Introduction to Atheism
                       by mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>

This article attempts to provide a general introduction to atheism.  Whilst I
have tried to be as neutral as possible regarding contentious issues, you
should always remember that this document represents only one viewpoint.  I
would encourage you to read widely and draw your own conclusions; some
relevant books are listed in a companion article.

To provide a sense of cohesion and progression, I have presented this article
as an imaginary conversation between an atheist and a theist.  All the
questions asked by the imaginary theist are questions which have been cropped
up repeatedly on alt.atheism since the newsgroup was created.  Some other
frequently asked questions are answered in a companion article.

Please note that this article is arguably slanted towards answering questions
posed from a Christian viewpoint.  This is because the FAQ files reflect
questions which have actually been asked, and it is predominantly Christians
who proselytize on alt.atheism.

So when I talk of religion, I am talking primarily about religions such as
Christianity, Judaism and Islam, which involve some sort of superhuman divine
being.  Much of the discussion will apply to other religions, but some of it
may not.

"What is atheism?"

Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God.
Some atheists go further, and believe that God does not exist.  The former is
often referred to as the "weak atheist" position, and the latter as "strong
atheism".

It is important to note the difference between these two positions.  "Weak
atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God.  "Strong
atheism" is a positive belief that God does not exist.  Please do not
fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists".

Some atheists believe in the non-existence of all Gods; others limit their
atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making
flat-out denials.

"But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn't exist?"

Definitely not.  Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe
it to be true.  Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to
believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or
not.  Which brings us to agnosticism.

"What is agnosticism then?"

The term 'agnosticism' was coined by Professor Huxley at a meeting of the
Metaphysical Society in 1876.  He defined an agnostic as someone who
disclaimed ("strong") atheism and believed that the ultimate origin of things
must be some cause unknown and unknowable.

Thus an agnostic is someone who believes that we do not and cannot know for
sure whether God exists.

Words are slippery things, and language is inexact.  Beware of assuming that
you can work out someone's philosophical point of view simply from the fact
that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic.  For example, many people
use agnosticism to mean "weak atheism", and use the word "atheism" only when
referring to "strong atheism".

Beware also that because the word "atheist" has so many shades of meaning, it
is very difficult to generalize about atheists.  About all you can say for
sure is that atheists don't believe in God.  For example, it certainly isn't
the case that all atheists believe that science is the best way to find out
about the universe.

"So what is the philosophical justification or basis for atheism?"

There are many philosophical justifications for atheism.  To find out why a
particular person chooses to be an atheist, it's best to ask her.

Many atheists feel that the idea of God as presented by the major religions
is essentially self-contradictory, and that it is logically impossible that
such a God could exist.  Others are atheists through scepticism, because they
see no evidence that God exists.

"But isn't it impossible to prove the non-existence of something?"

There are many counter-examples to such a statement.  For example, it is
quite simple to prove that there does not exist a prime number larger than
all other prime numbers.  Of course, this deals with well-defined objects
obeying well-defined rules.  Whether Gods or universes are similarly
well-defined is a matter for debate.

However, assuming for the moment that the existence of a God is not provably
impossible, there are still subtle reasons for assuming the non-existence of
God.  If we assume that something does not exist, it is always possible to
show that this assumption is invalid by finding a single counter-example.

If on the other hand we assume that something does exist, and if the thing in
question is not provably impossible, showing that the assumption is invalid
may require an exhaustive search of all possible places where such a thing
might be found, to show that it isn't there.  Such an exhaustive search is
often impractical or impossible.  There is no such problem with largest
primes, because we can prove that they don't exist.

Therefore it is generally accepted that we must assume things do not exist
unless we have evidence that they do.  Even theists follow this rule most of
the time; they don't believe in unicorns, even though they can't conclusively
prove that no unicorns exist anywhere.

To assume that God exists is to make an assumption which probably cannot be
tested.  We cannot make an exhaustive search of everywhere God might be to
prove that he doesn't exist anywhere.  So the sceptical atheist assumes by
default that God does not exist, since that is an assumption we can test.

Those who profess strong atheism usually do not claim that no sort of God
exists; instead, they generally restrict their claims so as to cover
varieties of God described by followers of various religions.  So whilst it
may be impossible to prove conclusively that no God exists, it may be
possible to prove that (say) a God as described by a particular religious
book does not exist.  It may even be possible to prove that no God described
by any present-day religion exists.

In practice, believing that no God described by any religion exists is very
close to believing that no God exists.  However, it is sufficiently different
that counter-arguments based on the impossibility of disproving every kind of
God are not really applicable.

"But what if God is essentially non-detectable?"

If God interacts with our universe in any way, the effects of his interaction
must be measurable.  Hence his interaction with our universe must be
detectable.

If God is essentially non-detectable, it must therefore be the case that he
does not interact with our universe in any way.  Many atheists would argue
that if God does not interact with our universe at all, it is of no
importance whether he exists or not.

If the Bible is to be believed, God was easily detectable by the Israelites.
Surely he should still be detectable today?

Note that I am not demanding that God interact in a scientifically
verifiable, physical way.  It must surely be possible to perceive some
effect caused by his presence, though; otherwise, how can I distinguish him
from all the other things that don't exist?

"OK, you may think there's a philosophical justification for atheism, but
 isn't it still a religious belief?"

One of the most common pastimes in philosophical discussion is "the
redefinition game".  The cynical view of this game is as follows:

Person A begins by making a contentious statement.  When person B points out
that it can't be true, person A gradually re-defines the words he used in the
statement until he arrives at something person B is prepared to accept.  He
then records the statement, along with the fact that person B has agreed to
it, and continues.  Eventually A uses the statement as an "agreed fact", but
uses his original definitions of all the words in it rather than the obscure
redefinitions originally needed to get B to agree to it.  Rather than be seen
to be apparently inconsistent, B will tend to play along.

The point of this digression is that the answer to the question "Isn't
atheism a religious belief?" depends crucially upon what is meant by
"religious".  "Religion" is generally characterized by belief in a superhuman
controlling power -- especially in some sort of God -- and by faith and
worship.

[ It's worth pointing out in passing that some varieties of Buddhism are not
  "religion" according to such a definition. ]

Atheism is certainly not a belief in any sort of superhuman power, nor is it
categorized by worship in any meaningful sense.  Widening the definition of
"religious" to encompass atheism tends to result in many other aspects of
human behaviour suddenly becoming classed as "religious" as well -- such as
science, politics, and watching TV.

"OK, so it's not a religion.  But surely belief in atheism (or science) is
 still just an act of faith, like religion is?"

Firstly, it's not entirely clear that sceptical atheism is something one
actually believes in.

Secondly, it is necessary to adopt a number of core beliefs or assumptions to
make some sort of sense out of the sensory data we experience.  Most atheists
try to adopt as few core beliefs as possible; and even those are subject to
questioning if experience throws them into doubt.

Science has a number of core assumptions.  For example, it is generally
assumed that the laws of physics are the same for all observers.  These are
the sort of core assumptions atheists make.  If such basic ideas are called
"acts of faith", then almost everything we know must be said to be based on
acts of faith, and the term loses its meaning.

Faith is more often used to refer to complete, certain belief in something.
According to such a definition, atheism and science are certainly not acts of
faith.  Of course, individual atheists or scientists can be as dogmatic as
religious followers when claiming that something is "certain".  This is not a
general tendency, however; there are many atheists who would be reluctant to
state with certainty that the universe exists.

Faith is also used to refer to belief without supporting evidence or proof.
Sceptical atheism certainly doesn't fit that definition, as sceptical atheism
has no beliefs.  Strong atheism is closer, but still doesn't really match, as
even the most dogmatic atheist will tend to refer to experimental data (or
the lack of it) when asserting that God does not exist.

"If atheism is not religious, surely it's anti-religious?"

It is an unfortunate human tendency to label everyone as either "for" or
"against", "friend" or "enemy".  The truth is not so clear-cut.

Atheism is the position that runs logically counter to theism; in that sense,
it can be said to be "anti-religion".  However, when religious believers
speak of atheists being "anti-religious" they usually mean that the atheists
have some sort of antipathy or hatred towards theists.

This categorization of atheists as hostile towards religion is quite unfair.
Atheist attitudes towards theists in fact cover a broad spectrum.

Most atheists take a "live and let live" attitude.  Unless questioned, they
will not usually mention their atheism, except perhaps to close friends.  Of
course, this may be in part because atheism is not "socially acceptable" in
many countries.

A few atheists are quite anti-religious, and may even try to "convert" others
when possible.  Historically, such anti-religious atheists have made little
impact on society outside the Eastern Bloc countries.

(To digress slightly: the Soviet Union was originally dedicated to separation
of church and state, just like the USA.  Soviet citizens were legally free to
worship as they wished.  The institution of "state atheism" came about when
Stalin took control of the Soviet Union and tried to destroy the churches in
order to gain complete power over the population.)

Some atheists are quite vocal about their beliefs, but only where they see
religion encroaching on matters which are not its business -- for example,
the government of the USA.  Such individuals are usually concerned that
church and state should remain separate.

"But if you don't allow religion to have a say in the running of the state,
 surely that's the same as state atheism?"

The principle of the separation of church and state is that the state shall
not legislate concerning matters of religious belief.  In particular, it
means not only that the state cannot promote one religion at the expense of
another, but also that it cannot promote any belief which is religious in
nature.

Religions can still have a say in discussion of purely secular matters.  For
example, religious believers have historically been responsible for
encouraging many political reforms.  Even today, many organizations
campaigning for an increase in spending on foreign aid are founded as
religious campaigns.  So long as they campaign concerning secular matters,
and so long as they do not discriminate on religious grounds, most atheists
are quite happy to see them have their say.

"What about prayer in schools? If there's no God, why do you care if people
 pray?"

Because people who do pray are voters and lawmakers, and tend to do things
that those who don't pray can't just ignore.  Also, Christian prayer in
schools is intimidating to non-Christians, even if they are told that they
need not join in.  The diversity of religious and non-religious belief means
that it is impossible to formulate a meaningful prayer that will be
acceptable to all those present at any public event.

Also, non-prayers tend to have friends and family who pray.  It is reasonable
to care about friends and family wasting their time, even without other
motives.

"You mentioned Christians who campaign for increased foreign aid.  What about
 atheists?  Why aren't there any atheist charities or hospitals?  Don't
 atheists object to the religious charities?"

There are many charities without religious purpose that atheists can
contribute to.  Some atheists contribute to religious charities as well, for
the sake of the practical good they do.  Some atheists even do voluntary work
for charities founded on a theistic basis.

Most atheists seem to feel that atheism isn't worth shouting about in
connection with charity.  To them, atheism is just a simple, obvious everyday
matter, and so is charity.  Many feel that it's somewhat cheap, not to say
self-righteous, to use simple charity as an excuse to plug a particular set
of religious beliefs.

To "weak" atheists, building a hospital to say "I do not believe in God" is a
rather strange idea; it's rather like holding a party to say "Today is not my
birthday".  Why the fuss?  Atheism is rarely evangelical.

"You said atheism isn't anti-religious.  But is it perhaps a backlash against
 one's upbringing, a way of rebelling?"

Perhaps it is, for some.  But many people have parents who do not attempt to
force any religious (or atheist) ideas upon them, and many of those people
choose to call themselves atheists.

It's also doubtless the case that some religious people chose religion as a
backlash against an atheist upbringing, as a way of being different.  On the
other hand, many people choose religion as a way of conforming to the
expectations of others.

On the whole, we can't conclude much about whether atheism or religion are
backlash or conformism; although in general, people have a tendency to go
along with a group rather than act or think independently.

"How do atheists differ from religious people?"

They don't believe in God.  That's all there is to it.

Atheists may listen to heavy metal -- backwards, even -- or they may prefer a
Verdi Requiem, even if they know the words.  They may wear Hawaiian shirts,
they may dress all in black, they may even wear orange robes.  (Many
Buddhists lack a belief in any sort of God.)  Some atheists even carry a copy
of the Bible around -- for arguing against, of course!

Whoever you are, the chances are you have met several atheists without
realising it.  Atheists are usually unexceptional in behaviour and
appearance.

"Unexceptional? But aren't atheists less moral than religious people?"

That depends.  If you define morality as obedience to God, then of course
atheists are less moral as they don't obey any God.  But usually when one
talks of morality, one talks of what is acceptable ("right") and unacceptable
("wrong") behaviour within society.

Humans are social animals, and to be maximally successful they must
co-operate with each other.  This is a good enough reason to discourage most
atheists from "anti-social" or "immoral" behaviour, purely for the purposes
of self-preservation.

Many atheists behave in a "moral" or "compassionate" way simply because they
feel a natural tendency to empathize with other humans.  So why do they care
what happens to others?  They don't know, they simply are that way.

Naturally, there are some people who behave "immorally" and try to use
atheism to justify their actions.  However, there are equally many people who
behave "immorally" and then try to use religious beliefs to justify their
actions.  For example:

  "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Jesus Christ
   came into the world to save sinners...  But for that very reason, I was
   shown mercy so that in me...  Jesus Christ might display His unlimited
   patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive
   eternal life.  Now to the king eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God,
   be honor and glory forever and ever."

The above quote is from a statement made to the court on February 17th 1992
by Jeffrey Dahmer, the notorious cannibal serial killer of Milwaukee,
Wisconsin.  It seems that for every atheist mass-murderer, there is a
religious mass-murderer.  But what of more trivial morality?

   A survey conducted by the Roper Organization found that behavior
   deteriorated after "born again" experiences.  While only 4% of respondents
   said they had driven intoxicated before being "born again," 12% had done
   so after conversion.  Similarly, 5% had used illegal drugs before
   conversion, 9% after.  Two percent admitted to engaging in illicit sex
   before salvation; 5% after.
                                ["Freethought Today", September 1991, p. 12.]

So it seems that at best, religion does not have a monopoly on moral
behaviour.

"Is there such a thing as atheist morality?"

If you mean "Is there such a thing as morality for atheists?", then the
answer is yes, as explained above.  Many atheists have ideas about morality
which are at least as strong as those held by religious people.

If you mean "Does atheism have a characteristic moral code?", then the answer
is no.  Atheism by itself does not imply anything much about how a person
will behave.  Most atheists follow many of the same "moral rules" as theists,
but for different reasons.  Atheists view morality as something created by
humans, according to the way humans feel the world 'ought' to work, rather
than seeing it as a set of rules decreed by a supernatural being.

"Then aren't atheists just theists who are denying God?"

A study by the Freedom From Religion Foundation found that over 90% of the
atheists who responded became atheists because religion did not work for
them.  They had found that religious beliefs were fundamentally incompatible
with what they observed around them.

Atheists are not unbelievers through ignorance or denial; they are
unbelievers through choice.  The vast majority of them have spent time
studying one or more religions, sometimes in very great depth.  They have
made a careful and considered decision to reject religious beliefs.

This decision may, of course, be an inevitable consequence of that
individual's personality.  For a naturally sceptical person, the choice
of atheism is often the only one that makes sense, and hence the only
choice that person can honestly make.

"But don't atheists want to believe in God?"

Atheists live their lives as though there is nobody watching over them.  Many
of them have no desire to be watched over, no matter how good-natured the
"Big Brother" figure might be.

Some atheists would like to be able to believe in God -- but so what? Should
one believe things merely because one wants them to be true?  The risks of
such an approach should be obvious.  Atheists often decide that wanting to
believe something is not enough; there must be evidence for the belief.

"But of course atheists see no evidence for the existence of God -- they are
 unwilling in their souls to see!"

Many, if not most atheists were previously religious.  As has been explained
above, the vast majority have seriously considered the possibility that God
exists.  Many atheists have spent time in prayer trying to reach God.

Of course, it is true that some atheists lack an open mind; but assuming that
all atheists are biased and insincere is offensive and closed-minded.
Comments such as "Of course God is there, you just aren't looking properly"
are likely to be viewed as patronizing.

Certainly, if you wish to engage in philosophical debate with atheists it is
vital that you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are
being sincere if they say that they have searched for God.  If you are not
willing to believe that they are basically telling the truth, debate is
futile.

"Isn't the whole of life completely pointless to an atheist?"

Many atheists live a purposeful life.  They decide what they think gives
meaning to life, and they pursue those goals.  They try to make their lives
count, not by wishing for eternal life, but by having an influence on other
people who will live on.  For example, an atheist may dedicate his life to
political reform, in the hope of leaving his mark on history.

It is a natural human tendency to look for "meaning" or "purpose" in random
events.  However, it is by no means obvious that "life" is the sort of thing
that has a "meaning".

To put it another way, not everything which looks like a question is actually
a sensible thing to ask.  Some atheists believe that asking "What is the
meaning of life?" is as silly as asking "What is the meaning of a cup of
coffee?".  They believe that life has no purpose or meaning, it just is.

"So how do atheists find comfort in time of danger?"

There are many ways of obtaining comfort; from family, friends, or even pets.
Or on a less spiritual level, from food or drink or TV.

That may sound rather an empty and vulnerable way to face danger, but so
what?  Should individuals believe in things because they are comforting, or
should they face reality no matter how harsh it might be?

In the end, it's a decision for the individual concerned.  Most atheists are
unable to believe something they would not otherwise believe merely because
it makes them feel comfortable.  They put truth before comfort, and consider
that if searching for truth sometimes makes them feel unhappy, that's just
hard luck.

"Don't atheists worry that they might suddenly be shown to be wrong?"

The short answer is "No, do you?"

Many atheists have been atheists for years.  They have encountered many
arguments and much supposed evidence for the existence of God, but they have
found all of it to be invalid or inconclusive.

Thousands of years of religious belief haven't resulted in any good proof of
the existence of God.  Atheists therefore tend to feel that they are unlikely
to be proved wrong in the immediate future, and they stop worrying about it.

"So why should theists question their beliefs? Don't the same arguments
 apply?"

No, because the beliefs being questioned are not similar.  Weak atheism is
the sceptical "default position" to take; it asserts nothing.  Strong atheism
is a negative belief.  Theism is a very strong positive belief.

Atheists sometimes also argue that theists should question their beliefs
because of the very real harm they can cause -- not just to the believers,
but to everyone else.

"What sort of harm?"

Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind.  It's not
just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings;
think of all the time and effort spent building churches, praying, and so on.
Imagine how that effort could be better spent.

Many theists believe in miracle healing.  There have been plenty of instances
of ill people being "healed" by a priest, ceasing to take the medicines
prescribed to them by doctors, and dying as a result.  Some theists have died
because they have refused blood transfusions on religious grounds.

It is arguable that the Catholic Church's opposition to birth control -- and
condoms in particular -- is increasing the problem of overpopulation in many
third-world countries and contributing to the spread of AIDS world-wide.

Religious believers have been known to murder their children rather than
allow their children to become atheists or marry someone of a different
religion.

"Those weren't REAL believers.  They just claimed to be believers as some
 sort of excuse."

What makes a real believer?  There are so many One True Religions it's hard
to tell.  Look at Christianity: there are many competing groups, all
convinced that they are the only true Christians.  Sometimes they even fight
and kill each other.  How is an atheist supposed to decide who's a REAL
Christian and who isn't, when even the major Christian churches like the
Catholic Church and the Church of England can't decide amongst themselves?

In the end, most atheists take a pragmatic view, and decide that anyone who
calls himself a Christian, and uses Christian belief or dogma to justify his
actions, should be considered a Christian.  Maybe some of those Christians
are just perverting Christian teaching for their own ends -- but surely if
the Bible can be so readily used to support un-Christian acts it can't be
much of a moral code? If the Bible is the word of God, why couldn't he have
made it less easy to misinterpret? And how do you know that your beliefs
aren't a perversion of what your God intended?

If there is no single unambiguous interpretation of the Bible, then why
should an atheist take one interpretation over another just on your say-so?
Sorry, but if someone claims that he believes in Jesus and that he murdered
others because Jesus and the Bible told him to do so, we must call him a
Christian.

"Obviously those extreme sorts of beliefs should be questioned.  But since
 nobody has ever proved that God does not exist, it must be very unlikely
 that more basic religious beliefs, shared by all faiths, are nonsense."

That does not hold, because as was pointed out at the start of this dialogue,
positive assertions concerning the existence of entities are inherently much
harder to disprove than negative ones.  Nobody has ever proved that unicorns
don't exist, but that doesn't make it unlikely that they are myths.

It is therefore much more valid to hold a negative assertion by default than
it is to hold a positive assertion by default.  Of course, "weak" atheists
would argue that asserting nothing is better still.

"Well, if atheism's so great, why are there so many theists?"

Unfortunately, the popularity of a belief has little to do with how "correct"
it is, or whether it "works"; consider how many people believe in astrology,
graphology, and other pseudo-sciences.

Many atheists feel that it is simply a human weakness to want to believe in
gods.  Certainly in many primitive human societies, religion allows the
people to deal with phenomena that they do not adequately understand.

Of course, there's more to religion than that.  In the industrialized world,
we find people believing in religious explanations of phenomena even when
there are perfectly adequate natural explanations.  Religion may have started
as a means of attempting to explain the world, but nowadays it serves other
purposes as well.

"But so many cultures have developed religions.  Surely that must say
 something?"

Not really.  Most religions are only superficially similar; for example, it's
worth remembering that religions such as Buddhism and Taoism lack any sort of
concept of God in the Christian sense.

Of course, most religions are quick to denounce competing religions, so it's
rather odd to use one religion to try and justify another.

"What about all the famous scientists and philosophers who have concluded
 that God exists?"

For every scientist or philosopher who believes in a god, there is one who
does not.  Besides, as has already been pointed out, the truth of a belief is
not determined by how many people believe it.  Also, it is important to
realize that atheists do not view famous scientists or philosophers in the
same way that theists view their religious leaders.

A famous scientist is only human; she may be an expert in some fields, but
when she talks about other matters her words carry no special weight.  Many
respected scientists have made themselves look foolish by speaking on
subjects which lie outside their fields of expertise.

"So are you really saying that widespread belief in religion indicates
 nothing?"

Not entirely.  It certainly indicates that the religion in question has
properties which have helped it so spread so far.

The theory of memetics talks of "memes" -- sets of ideas which can propagate
themselves between human minds, by analogy with genes.  Some atheists view
religions as sets of particularly successful parasitic memes, which spread by
encouraging their hosts to convert others.  Some memes avoid destruction by
discouraging believers from questioning doctrine, or by using peer pressure
to keep one-time believers from admitting that they were mistaken.  Some
religious memes even encourage their hosts to destroy hosts controlled by
other memes.

Of course, in the memetic view there is no particular virtue associated with
successful propagation of a meme.  Religion is not a good thing because of
the number of people who believe it, any more than a disease is a good thing
because of the number of people who have caught it.

"Even if religion is not entirely true, at least it puts across important
 messages.  What are the fundamental messages of atheism?"

There are many important ideas atheists promote.  The following are just a
few of them; don't be surprised to see ideas which are also present in some
religions.

   There is more to moral behaviour than mindlessly following rules.

   Be especially sceptical of positive claims.

   If you want your life to have some sort of meaning, it's up to you to
   find it.

   Search for what is true, even if it makes you uncomfortable.

   Make the most of your life, as it's probably the only one you'll have.

   It's no good relying on some external power to change you; you must change
   yourself.

   Just because something's popular doesn't mean it's good.

   If you must assume something, assume something it's easy to test.

   Don't believe things just because you want them to be true.

and finally (and most importantly):

   All beliefs should be open to question.

Thanks for taking the time to read this article.

mathew

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I suppose these illegal guns have been found? I suppose he was going to kill a
bunch of people with them?
--Ray Cote

AHA! He admits it! He IS a moral relativist!

Keith, if you start wafffling on about how it is different for a human
to maul someone thrown into it's cage (so to speak), you'd better start
posting tome decent evidence or retract your 'I think there is an absolute
morality' blurb a few weeks ago.

The SDIO has "contracted" with the NRL (Naval Research Laboratory) to fly the Clementine Mission.  BTW we call it DSPSE (Deep Space Project Science Experiment).

The NRL is building the spacecraft, designing the detailed mission and doing the
integration and operations (with help from, JPL & Goddard & prob. some folks I
have left out...don't be mad).

I am on the TAMP (Trajectory Analysis & Mission Planning) team and am responsable
for the IV&V of the traj that Goddard/CSC are designing.

As for why SDIO is doing it, some of the reasons are:

   1)  the safety constraints are too tight to try to run the LIDAR in LEO

   2)  in LEO we don't get any new radiation data on the sensors, we will get
       that data on our 9 passages through the Van Allen (sp?) Belts

   3)  since we are going out there...why not piggy-back some general science

   4)  the intercept problem is a lot easied over LONG distances and LONG times

I am sure there are some things I have forgotten, and some I haven't been told
but, those are the reasons we all talk about.

-- 

hi all,

IN SHORT: looking for very fast assembly code for line/circle drawing
	  on SVGA graphics.

COMPLETE:
	I am thinking of a simple but fast molecular
graphics program to write on PC or clones. (ball-and-stick type)

Reasons: programs that I've seen are far too slow for this purpose.

Platform: 386/486 class machine.
	  800x600-16 or 1024x728-16 VGA graphics
		(speed is important, 16-color for non-rendering
		 purpose is enough; may stay at 800x600 for
		 speed reason.)
         (hope the code would be generic enough for different SVGA
          cards.  My own card is based on Trident 8900c, not VESA?)

What I'm looking for?
1) fast, very fast routines to draw lines/circles/simple-shapes
   on above-mentioned SVGA resolutions.
   Presumably in assembly languagine.
	Yes, VERY FAST please.
2) related codes to help rotating/zooming/animating the drawings on screen.
   Drawings for beginning, would be lines, circles mainly, think of
   text, else later.
   (you know, the way molecular graphics rotates, zooms a molecule)
2) and any other codes (preferentially in C) that can help the 
   project.

Final remarks;-
non-profit.  expected to become share-, free-ware.

	Any help is appreciated.
	thanks

-Frankie
lau@tammy.harvard.edu

Yes, long before Star Trek.  Before Einstein, in fact.

Vulcan as a planet inside Mercury was hypothesized to explain a perturbation
of Mercury's orbit that could not be explained by the known planets.  But
Einstein's theory of relativity explained Mercury's motion, and analysis
of Mercury's motion now shows there are _not_ any planets inside its orbit.

  Up to this point, I was kinda hoping that this was a joke. Still,
it would make a great premise for a bad syndicated TV show- "These
are the adventures of the Oriental Templars... dedicated to truth,
justice, and good karma! (Dramatic music in the background.)"
  No doubt I've just horribly offended someone.

zillion lines in response to article <1993Apr18.034101.21934@iti.org>,
in which Allen wrote a zillion lines in response to article
<17APR199316423628@judy.uh.edu>, in which Dennis wrote another zillion
lines in response to Allen.

Hey, can it you guys. Take it to email, or talk.politics.space, or
alt.flame, or alt.music.pop.will.eat.itself.the.poppies.are.on.patrol,
or anywhere, but this is sci.space. This thread lost all scientific
content many moons ago.

I was chaining around in the anonymous ftp world looking for 3D Studio
meshes and other interesting graphical stuff for the program, and found
a few files with the extension 3D2.  My 3DS v2.01 doesn't know this type
of file, so what are they?

And of course, the perennial... Where are some meshes, fli files, etc.
out there?   I would have thought that someone would have collected a few
and put them somewhere, but alas I am without this knowledge.

mucho appreciato

Does anyone out there have any JPEG decompression code in pretty much any
language that I can read and understand?  I have trouble understanding the
JPEG Group's code that I got from an FTP site.  If any one can send me
some good code, I will appreciate it a lot!  Thanks!

: |> 
: |>         Is there any way to connect two pointing devices to one serial
: |>         port? I haven't tried this but I believe they would interfere
: |>         with each other (?) even if only one at a time would be used.

: 	Just get an A-B switch for RS232. Look in Computer Shopper.
: They are available fairly cheap. They allow switching between two
: serial devices on a single port.

Unfortunately the poster wants to use an internal and an external modem so a
switch isn't going to help them.  If you aren't using your com ports for
anything else, just define them on different com ports.  Define your internal
modem to be say, com1, and your external modem to be com3.  You really
shouldn't have to worry about interrupt conflicts since you won't be using
both modems at the same time :).

  Damn right you can't provide any evidence for it.  

  Rarely are any widespread social phenomenon reducible to such a
  simple premise.  If they were, psychology would be a hard science
  with roughly the same mathematical soundness as physics.  

  Your premise may well be right.  It is much more likely, however,
  that it reflects your socialization and religious background, as
  well as your need to validate your religious beliefs.  Were I to
  pretend to have all the answers (and I don't), I would say that the
  xenophobia, guilt, and intolerance brought about by adherence to 
  fundamentalist religions play just as large a role in depressing
  the members of our society.

  Your mileage obviously varies.

	I don't see the effort to equate salvation with paradise. 

	Rather, I see implied the fact that only those who are saved 
may enter paradise.

Any comments on the absorbtion of the Office of Exploration into the
Office of Space Sciences and the reassignment of Griffin to the "Chief
Engineer" position?  Is this just a meaningless administrative
shuffle, or does this bode ill for SEI?

In my opinion, this seems like a Bad Thing, at least on the surface.
Griffin seemed to be someone who was actually interested in getting
things done, and who was willing to look an innovative approaches to
getting things done faster, better, and cheaper.  It's unclear to me
whether he will be able to do this at his new position.

Does anyone know what his new duties will be?
--

CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS
	
     Code 2042

In <19APR199320262420@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov 

Sorry I think I missed a bit of info on this Transition Experiment. What is it?

Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on ??

BTW: When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan?? Not that I am
looking forward to that day but I am just curious. I believe it had something
to do with the funding from the goverment (or rather _NO_ funding :-)

ok that's it for now. See you guys around,
Jurriaan.
 
Issued by Khomeini it shouldn't be relevant to anyone. But issued
by an honest and learned scholar of Islam it would be relevant to
any muslim as it would be contrary to Islamic law which all muslims
are required to respect.

Anyone sufficiently well versed in Islamic law and capable of reasoning,
if you are talking about a weak sense of "excuse." It depends on what 
sense of "excuse" you have in mind.

Only someone who thinks my opinion is important, obviously.
Obviously you don't care, nor do I care that you don't care.

Damn!  So it was YOU who was drinking beer with ROBERT McELWANE in the PARKING
LOT of the K-MART!

				UNLIMITED INSEMINATION OF THIS MESSAGE
					RIGIDLY REFUSED

I think you are too optimistic! PostScript is a very big language and
so the fig format can not be able to be an interpreter of ANY arbitrary
ps code. The only program I know to manipulate PostScript files is
IslandDraw.
I for myself use xfig and include the PostScript files (converted to
epsi format). Small changes then are possible (erasing some letters,
adding text and so on).
Reinhard

I don't think such tools exist either. In addition, there's no such
thing as objective information. All together, it looks like religion
and any doctrines could be freely misused to whatever purpose.

This all reminds me of Descartes' whispering deamon. You can't trust
anything. So why bother.

Cheers,
Kent

Archive-name: space/net
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:15 $

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    Procurement Act does not look kindly to those having inside information.
    Contractors and outsiders caught using this type of information can
    expect severe penalities. Unauthorized access attempts may subject you
    to a fine and/or imprisonment in accordance with Title 18, USC, Section
    1030. If in fact you should should learn of unauthorized access, contact
    NASA personnel.

    Claims have been made on this news group about fraud and waste. None
    have ever been substantiated to any significant degree. Readers
    detecting Fraud, Waste, Abuse, or Mismanagement should contact the NASA
    Inspector General (24-hours) at 800-424-9183 (can be anonymous) or write

	NASA
	Inspector General
	P.O. Box 23089
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	Washington DC 20024

I'm working upon a game using an isometric perspective, similar to
that used in Populous.  Basically, you look into a room that looks
similar to the following:

                             xxxx
                         xxxxx   xxxx
                     xxxx    x       xxxx
                 xxxx        x           xxxx
             xxxx     2      xxxx     1      xxxx
             x           xxxx    xxxx           x
             x       xxxx            xxxx       x
             x   xxxx             o      xxxx   x
             xxxx              3 /|\         xxxx
                 xxxx            /~\     xxxx
                     xxxx            xxxx
                         xxxx    xxxx
                             xxxx

The good thing about this perspective is that you can look and move
around in three dimensions and still maintain your peripheral vision. [*]

Since your viewpoint is always the same, the routines can be hard-coded
for a particular vantage.  In my case, wall two's rising edge has a slope
of 1/4. (I'm also using Mode X, 320x240).

I've run into two problems; I'm sure that other readers have tried this
before, and have perhaps formulated their own opinions:

1) The routines for drawing walls 1 & 2 were trivial, but when I ran a
packed->planar image through them, I was dismayed by the "jaggies."  I'm
now considered some anti-aliasing routines (speed is not really necessary).
Is it worth the effort to have the artist draw the wall already skewed,
thus being assured of nice image, or is this too much of a burden?

2) Wall 3 presents a problem; the algorithm I used tends to overly distort
the original.  I tried to decide on paper what pixels go where, and failed.
Has anyone come up with method for mapping a planar to crosswise sheared
shape?

Currently I take:

  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32
 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48
 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64

and produce:
            
             1  2  3  4
33 34 35 36 17 18 19 20  5  6  7  8
49 50 51 52 37 38 39 40 21 22 23 24  9 10 11 12
            53 54 55 56 41 42 43 44 25 26 27 28 13 14 15 16
                        57 58 59 60 45 46 47 48 29 30 31 32
                                    61 62 63 64

Line 1 follows the slope.  Line 2 is directly under line 1.
Line 3 moves up a line and left 4 pixels.  Line 4 is under line 3.
This fills the shape exactly without any unfilled pixels.  But
it causes distortions.  Has anyone come up with a better way?
Perhaps it is necessary to simply draw the original bitmap
already skewed?

Are there any other particularly sticky problems with this perspective?
I was planning on having hidden plane removal by using z-buffering.
Locations are stored in (x,y,z) form.

[*] For those of you who noticed, the top lines of wall 2 (and wall 1)
*are* parallel with its bottom lines.  This is why there appears to
be an optical illusion (ie. it appears to be either the inside or outside
of a cube, depending on your mood).  There are no vanishing points.
This simplifies the drawing code for objects (which don't have to
change size as they move about in the room).  I've decided that this
approximation is alright, since small displacements at a large enough
distance cause very little change in the apparent size of an object in
a real perspective drawing.

Hopefully the "context" of the picture (ie. chairs on the floor, torches
hanging on the walls) will dispell any visual ambiguity.

Thanks in advance for any help.

:P>My atheism is incidental, and the question of "God" is trivial.
:P
:P>But........
:P
:P>It matters a great deal to me when idiots try to force their belief on me,
:P>when they try to enforce their creation myths to be taught as scientific
:P>fact in school, when they tell me I can have no morals because morals are
:P>from "God", when a successful presidential candidate says that an atheist
:P>shouldn't be considered a citizen and couldn't be patriotic because "after
:P>all this is one nation under God", when the fundies try to take over the
:P>party that may well provide the next President of The United States of
:P>America so that they can force their beliefs on the rest of the country,
:P>et cetera..........
:P
:P>That's why I subscribe to alt.atheism.
:P
:P>And in the middle of this, people who aren't mind readers pop up on
:P>alt.atheism to tell me what I do or don't believe, or to concoct some
:P>straw-man reason why I don't share their particular belief.
:P
:P>You think I should just accept this?
:P
:P>This isn't particularly a dig at fundamentalist christians. I have been
:P>told on alt.atheism that I reject Allah because I am too proud to embrace
:P>islam, and that I reject Krishna because my eyes are closed. But most of
:P>the religious nuts who post on alt.atheism are some kind of militant
:P>christian who can't accept that others don't share their beliefs. This
:P>kind of stuff should be kept on talk.religion.misc, where it belongs.
:P
:P>ATHEISM ISN'T A BELIEF, IT'S THE ABSENCE OF BELIEF IN ANY GODS.
:P>                                 -------
:P
:P>Do you have a problem with this?
:P
:P>>
:P>>Bill
:PFirst, I would like to say that atheism is in fact a belief.  It is a beilief
:Pbecause a belief in something you hold to with ador and faith.  An atheist says there are no gods.  This cannot be proven. therefore you are excepting this on
:Pfaith alone.  That is a belief.  Secondly, you complain so much about how the 
:Pfundamental christians are trying to force their beliefs on you, but you don't
:Pmention anything about how the atheists, such as; Madamme Murry O'hare(founder
:Pof the Atheists Association in Austin Texas), and Robert Sherman(from the       Chicago area) have been trying to force their beliefs on everyone by trying to  get rid of God from our society by banning religious paintings from parks during Chistmas,  forcing cities to change their town seals if there is any mention of God in it (like Sherman has done), or trying to get the slogan "In God We Trust" off of the American currency? You also talk about creation "myths" as if they are in fact myths and tha
:P
:P
:P 
:Phave concrete evidece of this.  You probably
:Pdon't and that just enforces my point that your atheism is just as much belief as my christianity.  If this is not so please do show me why it isn't.  
:PMark Covalt 

The only real problem I have with the argument of christianity is that they seem to ignore their origin that being Asiatic in origin.  As soon as christians become the 
good non ego-centric Buddhists they are supposed to be, then I might listen.

I used this combination for a while - A QCR-Z recorder,
I think - and as far as I remember Corel can EXPORT in
SCODAL (.scd) format.  Just select 'EXPORT' on the main
file menu.  This may not be implemented in earlier versions,
of course, in which case you're on your own!!!

Also, I seem to think that the s/w for the QCR-Z (at the time)
did strange (and very undesirable) things if ANY part of the
pic was outside the screen area on Corel.  I once spent an
afternoon painfully discovering that ONE pixel had somehow
strayed off-screen, causing my whole slide to be blank!!!

The QCR-Z also couldn't handle grad-fill over grad-fill -
so if you use a graduated colour background, if you then
grad-fill an object on top of this, the fill appears on the
final slide as a circle (I think) and TOTALLY IGNORES the
shape of the object being filled!!!

Of course, if the recorder isn't a QCR, you can ignore all
this and feel suitably :-)

Oops! Quite right. I got so busy that I saved Frank's last post back then,
intending to respond when I could, and I sort of forgot. I'll try to do it
soon if anyone's still interested, and probably even if they're not.

Well, yes, maybe I am. I'm trying to have people buy and take on my opinions,
thus causing said opinions to spread in time-honoured memetic virus mode until
the world is a veritable paradise. So how about it, folks? As they say over
here, You Know It Makes Sense.

Cheers

Simon

I need a VESA driver for the Diamond Speedstar 24X that works. I've tried
several and none work for the hicolor modes.

For an essay, I am writing about the space shuttle and a need for a better
propulsion system.  Through research, I have found that it is rather clumsy 
(i.e. all the checks/tests before launch), the safety hazards ("sitting
on a hydrogen bomb"), etc..  If you have any beefs about the current
space shuttle program Re: propulsion, please send me your ideas.

Thanks a lot.

Does anyone know ifthe STS-56 email press kit was ever released?

To: ad994@Freenet.carleton.ca

JW> 1) Where is there a book or code that will teach me how
JW> to read and write pcx,dbf,and gif files?

JW> 2) How do I access the extra ram on my paradise video board
JW> so I can do paging in the higher vga modes ie: 320x200x256
JW> 800x600x256

JW> 3) anybody got a line on a good book to help answer these question?

Here are some that I have that are very good:

  Graphics File Formats, Kay and Levine, ISBN 0-8306-3059-7
  Supercharged Bitmapped Graphics, Rimmer, ISBN 0-8306-3788-5
  Programmer's Guide to the EGA and VGA Cards, Ferraro,
     ISBN 0-201-57025-4 (has a whole chapter on Paradise SVGA)

Dave

Pat> In article <SHAFER.93Apr6094402@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov>

Pat> Gee, I thought the X-15 was Cable controlled.  Didn't one of them
Pat> have a total electrical failure in flight?  Was there machanical
Pat> backup systems?

All reaction-controlled aircraft are fly-by-wire, at least the RCS part
is.  On the X-15 the aerodynamic control surfaces (elevator, rudder, etc)
were conventionally controlled (pushrods and cables) but the RCS jets
were fly-by-wire.

Pat> What do you mean?  Overstress the wings, and they fail at teh
Pat> joints?

Navy aircraft have folding or sweeping wings, in order to save space
on the hangar deck.  The F-14 wings sweep, all the rest fold the
wingtips up at a joint.

Air Force planes don't have folding wings, since the Air Force has
lots of room.

Only my common sense.  The fire was caused by either Koresh and his
followers or by the FBI/ATF/CIA/KGB/and maybe the Harper Valley PTA.  Since
you are throwing around the evidence arguement, I'll throw it back.  Can
you prove any government agency did it?  (Please don't resort to "they 
covered it up so that proves they did it" or any wild theories about how
the government agencies intentionally started the fire.  The key words
are proof and evidence.)
proves they did it"

Please explain how Koresh was defending himself from those children who
burned.  

Well they don't export anywhere near 50% of their GNP. Mexico's perhaps
but not their own. They actually export around the 9-10% mark. Similar
to most developed countries actually. Australia exports a larger share
of GNP as does the United States (14% I think off hand. Always likely to
be out by a factor of 12 or more though) This would be immediately obvious
if you thought about it.

It is their import routes that count. They can do without exports but
they couldn't live without imports for any longer than six months if that.

Too true! But one that is unstable and hence a source of serious worry.

I think that you are changing the meaning of "values" here. Perhaps
it is time to backtrack and take a look at the word.

value n. 1. A fair equivalent or return for something, such as goods
or service. 2. Monetary or material worth. 3. Worth as measured in 
usefulness or importance; merit. 4. A principle, standard, or quality
considered inherently worthwhile or desirable. 5. Precise meaning, as
of a word. 6. An assigned or calculated numerical quantity. 7. Mus. 
The relative duratation of a tone or rest. 8. The relative darkness or
lightness of a color. 9. The distinctive quality of a speech or speech
sound. 

In context of a moral system, definition four seems to fit best. In terms
of scientific usage, definitions six or eight might apply. Note that
these definitions do not mean the same thing.

In my mind, to say that science has its basis in values is a bit of a
reach. Science has its basis in observable fact. Even the usages of the
word "value" above do not denote observable fact, but rather a standard
of measurement. I would conclude that science does not have its
basis in values, and so your statement above fails. In fact, if one
concludes that a scientific set of measurements (values) are based on
systems derived from observation, then it must follow that in a
scientific context, there is no such thing as there is no such thing as
"objective values."

Back to the present. This has nothing to do with a moral system anyhow.
Just because the word "values" is used in both contexts does not mean
that there is a relationship between the two contexts.

If one is to argue for objective values (in a moral sense) then one must
first start by demonstrating that morality itself is objective. Considering
the meaning of the word "objective" I doubt that this will ever happen.

So, back to the original question:

And objective morality is.....?

If you can provide an objective foundation for "morality" then that will
be a good beginning.

They must be shipping that good Eau Clair acid to California now.

Also in pure speculation:

Parity errors in memory or previously known conditions that were waivered.
   "Yes that is an error, but we already knew about it"

Any problem where they decided a backup would handle it.

Any problem in an area that was not criticality 1,2,3..., that is, any
   problem in a system they decided they could do without.

I'd be curious as to what the real meaning of the quote is.

If this is grounded firmly in Islam, as you claim, then you have just
exposed Islam as the grounds for terrorism, plain and simple.

Whether you like it or not, whether Rushdie acted like a total jerk or
not, there is no acceptable civilized basis for putting someone in fear
of their life for words.

It simply does not matter whether his underlying motive was to find the
worst possible way he could to insult Muslims and their beliefs, got that?
You do not threaten the life of someone for words - when you do, you
quite simply admit the backruptcy of your position.  If you support
threatening the life of someone for words, you are not yet civilized.

This is exactly where I, and many of the people I know, have to depart
from respecting the religions of others.  When those beliefs allow and
encourage (by interpretation) the killing of non-physical opposition.

You, or I or anyone, are more than privledged to believe that someone,
whether it be Rushdie or Bush or Hussien or whover, is beyond the pale
of civilized society and you can condemn his/her soul, refuse to allow
any members of your association to interact with him/her, _peacably_
demonstrate to try to convince others to disassociate themselves from
the "miscreants", or whatever, short of physical force.

But once you physically threaten, or support physical threats, you get
much closer to your earlier comparison of rape - with YOU as the rapist
who whines "She asked for it, look how she was dressed".

Blaming the victim when you are unable to be civilized doesn't fly.

Dew

Benedikt Rosenau writes, with great authority:

"Contradictory" is a property of language.  If I correct this to

      THINGS DEFINED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST

I will object to definitions as reality.  If you then amend it to

      THINGS DESCRIBED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST

then we've come to something which is plainly false.  Failures in
description are merely failures in description.

(I'm not an objectivist, remember.)

excuse me for my ignorance. But I remember reading once that the 
Biblical tribe known as the Philistines still exists...they are the modern 
day Palestinians.
Anyone out there with more info, please post it!!!

Sorry to put a damper on your plans, but I was there three weeks ago and
it wasn't there.  Not that I would have known to look for it, of course,
but I combed the space exhibits pretty thoroughly and something like that
would have caught my attention instantly.

Yep, that's pretty much it. I'm not a Jew but I understand that this is the
Jewish way of thinking. However, the Jews believe that the Covenant between
YHWH and the Patriarchs (Abraham and Moses, in this case) establishes a Moral
Code to follow for mankind. Even the Jews could not decide where the boundaries
fall, though.

As I understand it, the Sadducees believed that the Torah was all that was
required, whereas the Pharisees (the ancestors of modern Judaism) believed that
the Torah was available for interpretation to lead to an understanding of
the required Morality in all its nuances (->Talmud).

The essence of all of this is that Biblical Morality is an interface between
Man and YHWH (for a Jew or Christian) and does not necessarily indicate
anything about YHWH outside of that relationship (although one can speculate).

The trouble with all of this is that we don't really know what the "created
in His image" means. I've heard a number of different opinions on this and
have still not come to any conclusion. This rather upsets the Apple Cart if
one wants to base a Life Script on this shaky foundation (to mix metaphors
unashamedly!) As to living by Christ's example, we know very little about
Jesus as a person. We only have his recorded utterances in a set of narratives
by his followers, and some very small references from comtemporary historians.
Revelation aside, one can only "know" Christ second-hand or worse.

This is not an attempt to debunk Christianity (although it may seem that way
initially), the point I`m trying to make is that we only really have the Bible
to interpret, and that interpretation is by humanity. I guess this is where
Faith or Relevation comes in with all its inherent subjectiveness.

No. There may be an absolute moral code. There are undoubtably multiple
moral codes. The multiple moral codes may be founded in the absolute moral
code. As an example, a parent may tell a child never to swear, and the child
may assume that the parent never swears simply because the parent has told
the child that it is "wrong". Now, the parent may swear like a trooper in
the pub or bar (where there are no children). The "wrongness" here is if
the child disobeys the parent. The parent may feel that it is "inappropriate"
to swear in front of children but may be quite happy to swear in front of
animals. The analogy does not quite hold water because the child knows that
he is of the same type as the parent (and may be a parent later in life) but
you get the gist of it? Incidentally, the young child considers the directive
as absolute until he gets older (see Piaget) and learns a morality of his own.

David.

---

   {Description of "External Tank" option for SSF redesign deleted}

Yo Ken, let's keep on-top of things! Both the "External Tank" and
"Wingless Orbiter" options have been deleted from the SSF redesign
options list. Today's (4/23) edition of the New York Times reports
that O'Connor told the panel that some redesign proposals have
been dropped, such as using the "giant external fuel tanks used
in launching space shuttles," and building a "station around
an existing space shuttle with its wings and tail removed."

Currently, there are three options being considered, as presented
to the advisory panel meeting yesterday (and as reported in
today's Times).

Option "A" - Low Cost Modular Approach
This option is being studied by a team from MSFC. {As an aside,
there are SSF redesign teams at MSFC, JSC, and LaRC supporting
the SRT (Station Redesign Team) in Crystal City. Both LeRC and
Reston folks are also on-site at these locations, helping the respective
teams with their redesign activities.} Key features of this
option are:
  -  Uses "Bus-1", a modular bus developed by Lockheed that's
     qualified for STS and ELV's. The bus provides propulsion, GN&C
     Communications, & Data Management. Lockheed developed this
     for the Air Force.
  -  A "Power Station Capability" is obtained in 3 Shuttle Flights.
     SSF Solar arrays are used to provide 20 kW of power. The vehicle
     flies in an "arrow mode" to optimize the microgravity environment.
     Shuttle/Spacelab missions would utilize the vehilce as a power
     source for 30 day missions.
  -  Human tended capability (as opposed to the old SSF sexist term
     of man-tended capability) is achieved by the addition of the
     US Common module. This is a modified version of the existing
     SSF Lab module (docking ports are added for the International
     Partners' labs, taking the place of the nodes on SSF). The
     Shuttle can be docked to the station for 60 day missions.
     The Orbiter would provide crew habitability & EVA capability.
  -  International Human Tended. Add the NASDA & ESA modules, and
     add another 20 kW of power
  -  Permanent Human Presence Capability. Add a 3rd power module,
     the U.S. habitation module, and an ACRV (Assured Crew Return
     Vehicle).

Option "B" - Space Station Freedom Derived
The Option "B" team is based at LaRC, and is lead by Mike Griffin.
This option looks alot like the existing SSF design, which we
have all come to know and love :)

This option assumes a lightweight external tank is available for
use on all SSF assembly flights (so does option "A"). Also, the 
number of flights is computed for a 51.6 inclination orbit,
for both options "A" and "B".

The build-up occurs in six phases:
  -  Initial Research Capability reached after 3 flights. Power
     is transferred from the vehicle to the Orbiter/Spacelab, when
     it visits.
  -  Man-Tended Capability (Griffin has not yet adopted non-sexist
     language) is achieved after 8 flights. The U.S. Lab is
     deployed, and 1 solar power module provides 20 kW of power.
  -  Permanent Human Presence Capability occurs after 10 flights, by
     keeping one Orbiter on-orbit to use as an ACRV (so sometimes
     there would be two Orbiters on-orbit - the ACRV, and the
     second one that comes up for Logistics & Re-supply).
  -  A "Two Fault Tolerance Capability" is achieved after 14 flights,
     with the addition of a 2nd power module, another thermal
     control system radiator, and more propulsion modules.
  -  After 20 flights, the Internationals are on-board. More power,
     the Habitation module, and an ACRV are added to finish the
     assembly in 24 flights.

Most of the systems currently on SSF are used as-is in this option, 
with the exception of the data management system, which has major
changes.

Hey!? What happened to the solar sail race that was supposed to be
for Columbus+500?

He's also the one who dubbed it the SR-71 - it was the RS-71 until LBJ
mippselled (sic) it.

FWIW,

Doug Page

I would guess that it requires X, almost certainly DV/X, which commonly
uses the GO32 (DJGPP) setup for its programs.  If you don't have DV/X
running, you can't get anything which requires interfacing with X.

You also have a severe problem with news headers.

FTP to cs.purdue.edu:pub/vanecek and pull proxima.tar.Z
and proxima.ps.Z.  Tres spif.

-- 

How 'bout some more info on that alleged supernova in M-81?
I might just break out the scope for this one.
____________________________________________________
"No sir, I don't like it! "-- Mr. Horse
Dan Kelo     dkelo@pepvax.pepperdine.edu

                     MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
                         April 23, 1993

1.  The Magellan spacecraft continues to operate normally, gathering
gravity data to plot the density variations of Venus in the
mid-latitudes.  The solar panel offpoint was returned to zero degrees
and spacecraft temperatures dropped 2-3 degrees C.

2.  An end-to-end test of the Delayed Aerobraking Data readout
process was conducted this week in preparation for the Transition
Experiment.  There was some difficulty locking up to the data frames,
and engineers are presently checking whether the problem was in
equipment at the tracking station.

3.  Magellan has completed 7277 orbits of Venus and is now 32 days
from the end of Cycle 4 and the start of the Transition Experiment.

4.  Magellan scientists were participating in the Brown-Vernadsky
Microsymposium at Brown University in Providence, RI, this week.  This
joint meeting of U.S. and Russian Venus researchers has been
continuing for many years.

Apple just released the Quicktime volume of the new Inside Macintosh series.
Any bookstore with reasonable technical stock should have it.

That's not true.    I gave you two examples.   One was the rather
pevasive anti-semitism in German Christianity well before Hitler
arrived.   The other was the system of social ranks that were used
in Imperail Germany and Austria to distinguish Jews from the rest 
of the population.

Neither of these were very terrible in themselves, but both helped
to set a psychology in which the gradual disenfranchisement of Jews
was made easier.

Why would you want to do that? The goal is to do it cheaper (remember,
this isn't government). Instead of leasing an expensive launch pad,
just use a SSTO and launch from a much cheaper facility.

  Allen

Try FTP-ing at
 pub-info.jpl.nasa.gov  (128.149.6.2) (simple dir-structure)

and  ames.arc.nasa.gov
at /pub/SPACE/GIF and /pub/SPACE/JPEG
sorry only 8 bits gifs and jpegs :-( great piccy's though (try the *x.gif
files they're semi-huge gif89a files)
                           ^^-watch out gif89a dead ahead!!!
Good-luck (good software to be found out-there too)

Jurriaan

JHWITTEN@CS.RUU.NL 

...

How can you tell they're identical?

You got one of them "Star Drek: The Next Syndication" neutrino
scanners?

Hi Netters,

I'm building a CAD package and need a 3D graphics library that can handle
some rudimentry tasks, such as hidden line removal, shading, animation, etc.

Can you please offer some recommendations?

I'll also need contact info (name, address, email...) if you can find it.

Thanks

(Please Post Your Responses, in case others have same need)

I don't have nor Imagine nor Real 3d, but as old
Amiga user I think you should take a look also to 
Real 3d 2.0 for the Amiga. I saw Imagine 2.0 on the
Amiga for a long time at my friend's home, and
I've seen R3D 2.0 in action at Bit.Movie 93 in Riccione,
Italy (an Italian Computer Graphics Contest).
Many professionals using 3d Studio on PC, SoftImage
for Silicon Graphics and Imagine on the Amiga were 
*VERY IMPRESSED* by the power of this programs.
Sorry, I've lost the posting with full description 
of features of this great program.

For more informations give a look in comp.sys.amiga.graphics.

Representative of Activa International told me that
it will be out in 2 weeks for the Amiga and that
PC MS-Windows, Silicon Indigo and Unix version are 
under development.

Ciao,
	Sergio

You appear to be stunningly ignorant of the underlying concept of health
insurance.

responds to a lot of grief given to him
a.k.a. "The Sagemaster"
[ . . .]

Most of Scotty's followup *was* irrelevant to the original question,
but this is not unusual, as threads often quickly evolve away from
the original topic.  What I could not understand is why Jim spent so
much time responding to what he regarded as irrelevancies.

[ . . . ]
[ . . . ]

Well, I guess hypothetical Adam was "the majority of mankind"
seeing how he was the ONLY man at the time.

I understand what you mean by "collective," but I think it is an
insane perversion of justice.  What sort of judge would punish the
descendants for a crime committed by their ancestor?

Well, I must admit that you probably read a.a. more often than I read
the Bible these days.  But you missed a couple of good followups to
your post.  I'm sending you a personal copy of my followup which I
hope you will respond to publically in a.a.

Lindbergh's flight took place in '27, not the thirties.

Could you give examples of privately funded ones?

Your logic certainly applies to standard investment strategies.  However, the
concept of a prize for a difficult goal is done for different reasons, I 
suspect.  I'm not aware that Mr Orteig received any significant economic 
benefit from Lindbergh's flight.  Modern analogies, such as the prize for a
human powered helicopter face similar arguments.  There is little economic
benefit in such a thing.  The advantage comes in the new approaches developed
and the fact that a prize will frequently generate far more work than the 
equivalent amount of direct investment would.  A person who puts up $ X billion
for a moon base is much more likely to do it because they want to see it done
than because they expect to make money off the deal.

Reading from a Amoco Performance Products data sheet, their
ERL-1906 resin with T40 carbon fiber reinforcement has a compressive
strength of 280,000 psi.  It has a density of 0.058 lb/cu in,
therefore the theoretical height for a constant section column
that can just support itself is 4.8 million inches, or 400,000 ft,
or 75 Statute miles.

Now, a real structure will have horizontal bracing (either a truss
type, or guy wires, or both) and will be used below the crush strength.
Let us assume that we will operate at 40% of the theoretical 
strength.  This gives a working height of 30 miles for a constant
section column.  

A constant section column is not the limit on how high you can
build something if you allow a tapering of the cross section
as you go up.  For example, let us say you have a 280,000 pound
load to support at the top of the tower (for simplicity in
calculation).  This requires 2.5 square inches of column cross
sectional area to support the weight.  The mile of structure
below the payload will itself weigh 9,200 lb, so at 1 mile 
below the payload, the total load is now 289,200 lb, a 3.3% increase.

The next mile of structure must be 3.3% thicker in cross section
to support the top mile of tower plus the payload.  Each mile
of structure must increase in area by the same ratio all the way
to the bottom.  We can see from this that there is no theoretical
limit on area, although there will be practical limits based
on how much composites we can afford to by at $40/lb, and how
much load you need to support on the ground (for which you need
a foundation that the bedrock can support.

Let us arbitrarily choose $1 billion as the limit in costruction
cost.  With this we can afford perhaps 10,000,000 lb of composites,
assuming our finished structure costs $100/lb.  The $40/lb figure
is just for materials cost.  Then we have a tower/payload mass
ratio of 35.7:1.  At a 3.3% mass ratio per mile, the tower
height becomes 111 miles.  This is clearly above the significant
atmosphere.  A rocket launched from the top of the tower will still
have to provide orbital velocity, but atmospheric drag and g-losses
will be almost eliminated.  G-losses are the component of
rocket thrust in the vertical direction to counter gravity,
but which do not contribute to horizontal orbital velocity.  Thus
they represent wasted thrust.  Together with drag, rockets starting
from the ground have a 15% velocity penalty to contend with.

This analysis is simplified, in that it does not consider wind
loads.  These will require more structural support over the first
15 miles of height.  Above that, the air pressure drops to a low
enough value for it not to be a big factor.

Dani Eder

Does anybody have Bobby's post in which he said something like "I don't
know why there are more men than women in islamic countries. Maybe it's
atheists killing the female children"? It's my personal favorite!

A practical suggestion, to be sure, but one could *also* peek into
news.lists, where Brian Reid has posted "USENET Readership report for
Mar 93." Another posting called "USENET READERSHIP SUMMARY REPORT FOR
MAR 93" gives the methodology and caveats of Reid's survey.  (These
postings failed to appear for a while-- I wonder why?-- but they are
now back.)

Reid, alas, gives us no measure of the "power/influence" of readers...
Sorry, Mark.

I suspect Mark, dangling out there on Fidonet, may not get news.lists
so I've mailed him copies of these reports.

The bottom line?

        +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide.
        |     +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population
        |     |     +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all
        |     |     |      +-- Recent traffic (messages per month)
        |     |     |      |      +-- Recent traffic (kilobytes per month)
        |     |     |      |      |      +-- Crossposting percentage
        |     |     |      |      |      |    +-- Cost ratio: $US/month/rdr
        |     |     |      |      |      |    |      +-- Share: % of newsrders
        |     |     |      |      |      |    |      |   who read this group.
        V     V     V      V      V      V    V      V
  88  62000  1493   80%  1958  4283.9    19%  0.10   2.9%  sci.space 

The first figure indicates that sci.space ranks 88th among most-read

I've been keeping track sporadically to watch the growth of traffic
and readership.  You might be entertained to see this.

Oct 91   55  71000  1387   84%   718  1865.2    21%  0.04   4.2%  sci.space
Mar 92   43  85000  1741   82%  1207  2727.2    13%  0.06   4.1%  sci.space
Jul 92   48  94000  1550   80%  1044  2448.3    12%  0.04   3.8%  sci.space
May 92   45  94000  2023   82%   834  1744.8    13%  0.04   4.1%  sci.space
(some kind of glitch in estimating number of readers happens here)
Sep 92   45  51000  1690   80%  1420  3541.2    16%  0.11   3.6%  sci.space 
Nov 92   78  47000  1372   81%  1220  2633.2    17%  0.08   2.8%  sci.space 
(revision in ranking groups happens here(?))
Mar 93   88  62000  1493   80%  1958  4283.9    19%  0.10   2.9%  sci.space 

Possibly old Usenet hands could give me some more background on how to
interpret these figures, glitches, or the history of Reid's reporting
effort.  Take it to e-mail-- it doesn't belong in sci.space.

VLBI project meets with international space agencies

I'm sure zero-intested economical systems survive on a small-scale,
co-ops is not an Islamic invention, and we have co-operatives working
all around the world. However such systems don't stand the corruption
of a large scale operation. Actually, nothing could handle human
greed, IMHO. Not even Allah :-).

Cheers,
Kent

/(emery)
/The one single historic event that has had the biggest impact on the
/world over the centuries is the resurrection of Jesus.  

This is hardly possible, as the majority of people in the world were
born, lived their life, and died, without ever knowing anything about
Christ.  The majority of the rest of the world have decided that he 
is not who Emery thinks he is.

/(emery)
/Why were the writers of the New Testament documents so convinced that
/Jesus really did rise from the dead?
/We have four gospel accounts.  

I am leaving out all "proofs" of Emery's which rely on quoting the
bible as proof.  Circular reasoning, etc.  There have been occasions
already stated many times for later generations of Xtians to change,
edit, or otherwise alter the bible to fit their political gospel.
And if we accept the bible as true just because the bible says it
is true, then (to be fair) we have to do the same to the Bhagavad-Gita
and the Koran, both of which contradict the bible.

Enough said.

/(emery)
/Yet we have no reason to believe these disciples to be immoral and dishonest.
/We have no historic information that would lead us to the conclusion that
/these people were not God-fearing people who sincerely and whole-heartedly
/believed that the resurrection of their Lord Jesus was a real event.
/And for what gain would they lie?  To make a stand at that time meant 
/persecution, imprisonment, and perhaps even death.

Again, this is only the biblical account and there is no independent proof
of any of this happening.  It just isn't there.

Besides, simply being sincere or willing to die for your faith does not
make your faith correct.  There are Muslims dying in Bosnia right now;
does the fact that they are willing to die for Islam mean that Islam is
the correct religion?

(emery)
/History bears out the persecution of Christians.  Roman historian, Cornelius 
/Tacitus, Govenor of Asia, in A.D. 112, writing of Nero's reign, alluded to 
/the torture of Christians in Rome:

All you have proven is that these people were tortured for their faith.  That
does not prove that their faith is true or correct; it just means that they
were sincere in their beliefs. 

Being willing to die for what you believe doesn't make your belief the truth.
It's not that easy.  And minority religions have always suffered torture;
Muslims suffer torture and harassment in India and Bosnia today.  All religions
are harassed in China today.  You haven't proven anything so far.

/(emery)
/With all the suffering and persecution that it meant to be a believer, it
/would be quite probable that at least one of those in the supposed conspiracy
/would come forward and confess that the whole thing was a big hoax.  

Not if they didn't believe that it was a hoax.  

/(emery)
/Yet not one did.  It seems rather reasonable that the disciples did not make
/up the resurrection but sincerely believed that Jesus had actually risen
/from the dead; especially in light of the sufferings that came upon those
/who believed.

The followers of Muhammad firmly believed in the miracles that the Koran
says Muhammad performed.  They were attacked and slaughtered for their
beliefs.  They didn't denounce Muhammad or Islam.  If you are correct,
then that means Islam is the true faith.

Just as a matter of interest, a self-promo computer graphics sequence 
that one of the local TV stations used to play quite a lot a couple of
years ago showed a 3D flyover of Australia from the West coast to the
East.  The clouds were quite recognisable as fuzzy, flat, white
Mandlebrot sets!!

For the purpose of a contest, I'd bet some things could be cut.  Like fuel
for re-entry, any kind of heat shielding, etc., etc.  Even still, if the
contest participants had to fund DC-1 development, it probably wouldn't be
worth it to develop DC-1 (just for the contest).  Just give me the cheapest
heaviest lift man rated (or at least under 6 or so Gs) booster...  If I
don't have to pay for DC-1 development, great!, I'll use it.

But back to the contest goals, there was a recent article in AW&ST about a
low cost (it's all relative...) manned return to the moon.  A General
Dynamics scheme involving a Titan IV & Shuttle to lift a Centaur upper
stage, LEV, and crew capsule.  The mission consists of delivering two
unmanned payloads to the lunar surface, followed by a manned mission. 
Total cost:  US was $10-$13 billion.  Joint ESA(?)/NASA project was $6-$9
billion for the US share.

I didn't find a mention of how long the crew could stay, but I'd bet that
its  around 30 days.  And the total payload delivered was about 30 metric
tonnes.  So if you ignore the scientific payload, hitch a ride in the crew
habitation module (no return trip...), and toss in a few more tonnes for
the additional consumables to last another 11 months, then you *might* be
able to get a year visit out of 15 tonnes (and in case its not obvious,
that's a wild ass guess).  A pretty boring visit, since every trip outdoors
eats up a bit of LOX.  And I'm not certain if a home brewed (or
college-brewed) life support system could last a year.  But let's round
this up to 19.4 tonnes (convient, since the GD plan talks about 9.7 ton
payloads delivered to the lunar surface.  This adds up to two Centaurs, two
LEVs, two Shuttle flights... All to put a single man on the moon for a
year.   Hmmm.  Not really practical.  Anyone got a cheaper/better way of
delivering 15-20 tonnes to the lunar surface within the decade?  Anyone
have a more precise guess about how much a year's supply of consumables and
equipment would weigh?

And I was wondering about the GD LEV.  Is it reusable?  Or is it discarded
to burn up on return to LEO?  If its not discarded, could it be refueled? 
Henry: Do you know anything about the GD LEV?  I noted that it uses RL-10
engines.  Aren't they reusable/restartable?  Would a LEV fit in a DC-1? 
I've forgotten (if I ever knew) what the cargo bay dimensions are for the
DC-1.

All in all, I'm not certain that the single goal/prize of staying on the
moon for a year is wise and/or useful.  How about:  A prize for the first
non-government sponsered unmanned moon landing, then another for a manned
moon landing, then yet another for a system to extract consumables from
lunar soil, another for a reusable earth/moon shuttle, and so forth.  Find
some way to build civilian moonbase infrastructure...  Having a single goal
might result in a bunch of contestents giving up after one person appeared
to win.  And for those that didn't give up, I find something a little scary
about a half dozen people huddling in rickety little moon shelters.  I'd
like to see as much a reward for co-operation as for competition.

Lastly, about ten or fifteen years back I seem to recall that there was an
English space magazine that had an on-going discussion about moonbases on
the cheap.  I recalled it discussed things like how much heat the human
body produced, how much lunar material it'd need for protection from solar
flares, etc.  Unfortunately I don't remember the name of this magazine. 
Does this ring a bell to anyone?

This deserves framing.  It really does.  "[Atoms] aren't even real."

Tell me then, those atoms we have seen with electron microscopes are
atoms now, so what are they?  Figments of our imaginations?  The
evidence that atoms are real is overwhelming, but I won't bother with
most evidence at the moment.

A good point.  What helps to keep such things going is the public
attitude that one should have "faith""; that some authority from
on high should not be subjected to mere reason.  Couple this with a
variety of personality quirks, mojor and minor mental illnesses, and
ego of would-be leaders, and you get all the variety of cults and 
religions that people subscribe to.

In fact, you can all direct your ire at the proper target by ingoring NASA 
altogether.  The rocket is a commercial launch vechicle - a Conestoga flying 
a COMET payload.  NASA is simply the primary customer.  I believe SDIO has a
small payload as well.  The advertising space was sold by the owners of the
rocket, who can do whatever they darn well please with it.  In addition, these
anonymous "observers" had no reason to be startled.  The deal made Space News
at least twice. 

I think its only fair to find that out before everyone starts having a hissy
fit.  The fact that they bothered to use the conditional tense suggests that
it has not yet been approved.

Ah, there's the rub.  And a catch-22 to boot.  For the purposes of a
contest, you'll probably not compete if'n you can't afford the ride to get
there.  And although lower priced delivery systems might be doable, without
demand its doubtful that anyone will develop a new system.  Course, if a
low priced system existed, there might be demand...  

I wonder if there might be some way of structuring a contest to encourage
low cost payload delivery systems.  The accounting methods would probably
be the hardest to work out.  For example, would you allow Rockwell to
'loan' you the engines?  And so forth...

This depends on the how soon the new launch system comes on line.  In other
words, perhaps a great deal of worthwhile technology (life support,
navigation, etc.) could be developed prior to a low cost launch system. 
You wouldn't want to use the expensive stuff forever, but I'd hate to see
folks waiting to do anything until a low cost Mac, oops, I mean launch
system comes on line.

I guess I'd simplify this to say that 'waste' is a slippery concept.  If
your goal is manned lunar exploration in the next 5 years, then perhaps its
not 'wasted' money.  If your goal is to explore the moon for under $500
million, then you should put of this exploration for a decade or so.

Craig

It can be painless, so it isn't cruel.  And, it has occurred frequently
since the dawn of time, so it is hardly unusual.

But, innocents die due to many causes.  Why have you singled out
accidental or false execution as the one to take issue with?

      AH! But what, exactly, is "inherently abhorrent" and WHY is it so?
What you're saying is, in effect, "I think some things are repulsive,
and I know a whole bunch of other people who agree with me, so they
should be deemed absolutely immoral now and forever, period".

      Which in and of itself is nice enough; to some extent I agree with
you. But I do _not_ agree that things are 'inherently' or 'absolutely'
immoral; they are labeled 'immoral' each for its own good reason, and if
the reason can even theoretically change, then so can the label.

[...]

      No it doesn't. Humans are to some extent similar, because we all
belong to the same species; that that species has evolved is another
story altogether. To a certain extent evolution can even lend credence
to moral absolutism (of a flavour).

[...]

      You're saying morality is what'll keep society alive and kicking.
It is, I think, up to a point; but societies are not all alike, and
neither are their moralities.

      Similar != identical.

      No, it's falsifiable through finding someoe who was "created
different", whatever that might be in the "real" world.

You can include postscript epsi files in xfig (encapsulated postscript
info files). You can't actually edit the postscript file, but you're able
to draw over the postscript file.

There a eps to epsi converter: eps2epsi (perl program),

Succes,

Someone posted a list of x number of alleged Bible contradictions.  As Joslin
said, most people do value quantity over quality.  Dave Butler posted some good
quality alleged contradictions that are taking a long time to properly exegete.

If you want a good list (quantity) - _When Critics Ask, A Popular Handbook On
Bible Difficulties_ by Dr. Norman Geisler deals with over 800 alleged contradictions.

Frank

Things could be worse. A lot worse! In the mid-eighties the
teen/adult sci-fi comic 2000AD (Fleetway) produced a short story
featuring the award winning character "Judge Dredd". The story
focussed on an advertising agency of the future who use high powered
multi-coloured lasers/search lights pointed at the moon to paint
images on the moon. Needless to say, this use hacked off a load of lovers,
romantics and werewolfs/crazies. The ad guys got chopped, the service
discontinued. A cautionary tale indeed!

Marvin Batty.

Also photoshopII is out soon, has anyone got a date and any cofmments?
Andy

        _______________________________________________________
        | Andrew Leahy | aleahy@cch.coventry.ac.uk | Odd FROG |
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HEAR HEAR!!!

REALLY? i thought that the reason it was 42 was that it is REALLY 24, but
written as 42 so that on Intel chips you could get the proper value :)

-pete

help stomp out the endian wars... break some eggs on their sides!

There's another point to be made. Those who have been inside burning
houses know that if they want to stay alive, it's better to run out
from the building. We had one case where an FBI agent *had to 
drag out a women* from the burning house, she run back in when
she saw the forces arriving. It is a good indication of the fanatical
mind that the followers had -- including having they children burned
instead of saving these innocent victims of the instance.

Cheers,
Kent

Level 5 refers to the Carnegie-Mellon Software Engineering Institute's
Capability Maturity Model.  This model rates software development
org's from1-5.  with 1 being Chaotic and 5 being Optimizing.  DoD is
beginning to use this rating system as a discriminator in contracts.  I
have more data on thifrom 1 page to 1000.  I have a 20-30 page
presentation that summarizes it wethat I could FAX to you if you're
interested...
Wingert@VNET.IBM.COM

This is fascinating. Atheists argue for abortion, defend homosexuality
as a means of population control, insist that the only values are
biological and condemn war and capital punishment. According to
Benedikt, if something is contardictory, it cannot exist, which in
this case means atheists I suppose.
I would like to understand how an atheist can object to war (an
excellent means of controlling population growth), or to capital
punishment, I'm sorry but the logic escapes me.
And why just capital punishment, what is being questioned here, the
propriety of killing or of punishment? What is the basis of the
ecomplaint?

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE           Contact:  OASIS (310) 364-2290

     Since when does atheism mean trashing other religions?There must be a God
     of inbreeding to which you are his only son.

Found it! Thanks. I got several offers for help. I appreciate it and
will be contacting those people via e-mail.

Thanks again...

Alan,

	don't forget,  a HUGE  cost for airliner developement is FAA
certification.  the joke is when the paperwork  exceeds teh weight
of the airplane,  it will fly.

The SR-71, and teh X-15  both highly ambitious  aero-space projects were done
on very narrow engineering budgets.   Partly because they didn't spend much
on paper  pushing.   There is some company in missouri  trying to
get funding to build light commercial transporters  on a low cost basis,
mostly by reducing FAA  certification costs.

I'd be happy to US (international) Snail mail technical information on
imaging databases to anyone who needs it, if you can provide me with your
address for hard copy (not Email).  We're focusing mostly on Open PACE,
Oracle, Ingres, Adabas, Sybase, and Gupta, regarding our imaging
databases installed.  (We have over 1,000 installed and in production now;
most of the new ones going in are on Novell LANs, the RS/6000, and now HP
Unix workstations.)  We work with Visual Basic too.

I have posted a DOS MPEG decoder/player to alt.binaries.pictures.utilities.

Here is a short description and some technical information, taken from the
accompanying documentation:

                              DMPEG V1.0

                       Public Domain MPEG decoder

                           by Stefan Eckart

0. Features
===========

DMPEG/DMPLAY is another MPEG decoder/player for the PC:

 - decodes (nearly) the full MPEG video standard
   (I,P,B frames, frame size up to at least 352x240 supported)

 - saves decoded sequence in 8 or 24bit raw file for later display

 - optional on-screen display during decoding (requires VGA)

 - several dithering options: ordered dither, Floyd-Steinberg, grayscale

 - color-space selection

 - runs under DOS, 640KB RAM, no MS-Windows required

 - very compact (small code / small data models, 16 bit arithmetic)

 - real time display of the raw file by a separate player for
   VGA and many Super-VGAs

...

4. Technical information
========================

The player is a rather straightforward implementation of the MPEG spec [1].
The IDCT is based on the Chen-Wang 13 multiplication algorithm [2]
(not quite the optimum, I know). Blocks with not more than eight non-zero
coefficients use a non-separated direct multiply-accumulate 2D-IDCT
(sounds great, doesn't it?), which turned out to be faster than a 'fast'
algorithm in this (quite common) case. Dithering is pretty standard. Main
difference to the Berkeley decoder (except for the fewer number of supported
algorithms) is the use of 256 instead of 128 colors, the (default) option to
use a restricted color-space and the implementation of a color saturation
dominant ordered dither. This leads to a significantly superior quality of
the dithered image (I claim, judge yourself).

Restricted color-space means that the U and V components are clipped to
+/-0.25 (instead of +/-0.5) and the display color-space points are distributed
over this restricted space. Since the distance between color-space points
is thus reduced by a factor of two, the color resolution is doubled at the
expense of not being able to represent fully saturated colors.

Saturation dominant ordered dither is a method by which a color, lying
somewhere between the points of the display color space, is approximated
by primarily alternating between two points of constant hue instead of
constant saturation. This yields subjectivly better quality due to the
lower sensitivity of the human viewing system to saturation changes than
to hue changes (the same reasoning as used by the PAL TV standard to improve
on NTSC). The improvement is particularly visible in dark brown or redish
areas.

...

I addressed most of the key issues in this very long (284 lines) post
by Dean Kaflowitz in two posts yesterday.  The first was made into the
title post of a new thread, "Is Dean Kaflowitz terminally irony-impaired?"
and the second, more serious one appeared along the thread

"A Chaney Post, and a Challenge, reissued and revised"

both only in talk.abortion, but I am posting its contents into
talk.religion.misc as soon as I exit here.

This should be enough for us to thrash out for the next week or so.  The
second post really grapples with the main bones of contention between us.
The first is more lighthearted and tells about such things as 
KaflowitzDebatingPoints [tm], which he continues to rack up on both
talk.abortion and talk.religion.misc, while setting follow-ups to 
talk.abortion alone.  His lame excuse for the latter policy is that
he gets a prompt as to where to set follow-ups, and does not follow
talk.religion.misc much; this suggests that he is being hypocritical in not
also setting his Newsgroups line to talk.abortion alone.

Well, I'd say that a murderer is one who intentionally committed a murder.
For instance, if you put a bullet into a gun that was thought to contain
blanks, and someone was killed with such a gun, the person who actually
performed the action isn't the murderer (but I guess this is actually made
clear in the below definition).

What do you mean by "reasonable?"

[...]

Yes, it is bad to include the word being defined in the definition.  But,
even though the series is recursively infinite, I think the meaning can
still be deduced.

[math lesson deleted]

Okay, let's look at this situation:  suppose there is a longstanding
feud between two families which claim that the other committed some
travesty in the distant past.  Each time a member of the one family
kills a member of the other, the other family thinks that it is justified
in killing a that member of the first family.  Now, let's suppose that this
sequence has occurred an infinite number of times.  Or, if you don't
like dealing with infinities, suppose that one member of the family
goes back into time and essentially begins the whole thing.  That is, there
is a never-ending loop of slayings based on some non-existent travesty.
How do you resolve this?

Well, they are all murders.

Now, I suppose that this isn't totally applicable to your "problem," but
it still is possible to reduce an uninduced system.

And, in any case, the nested "murderer" in the definition of murder
cannot be infintely recursive, given the finite existence of humanity.
And, a murder cannot be committed without a killing involved.  So, the
first person to intentionally cause someone to get killed is necessarily
a murderer.  Is this enough of an induction to solve the apparently
unreducable definition?  See, in a totally objective system where all the
information is available, such a nested definition isn't really a problem.

Could someone please send me the basics of the NASP project:
1. The proposal/objectives
2. The current status of the project/obstacles encountered
3. Chance that the project shall ever be completed
or any other interesting information about this project.

Any help will be much appreciated

        Let us hope that the performance of the spacecraft follows the
sentiments of the first verse (miner) rather than the second (lost and gone
forever).

: When the object of their belief is said to be perfect and make the believers
: act in a certain way and we observe that they don't, we have a contradiction.
: Something defined contradictorily cannot exist. That what the believe in does
: not exist. Secondly, there are better explanations for why they believe than
: the existence of the object of their belief.
:  
:  
: Have you read the FAQ already?
:    Benedikt

Benedikt,

I can't recall anyone claiming that God -makes- anyone act a particlar
way, I think that you're attempting to manufacture a contradiction.
God is said to require certain behavior, but the only compulsion is
the believer's sense of duty. A standard of conduct does exist, but we
are free to ignore it or misunderstand it or distort it in whatever
ways we find convenient, but our response to God's edicts can in no
way be used to question God's existence. The behavior of believers is
a completely separate question from that of God's existence; there is
nothing contradictory here.

To say that something defined contadictorily cannot exist, is really
asking too much; you would have existence depend on grammar. All you
can really say is that something is poorly defined, but that in itself
is insufficient to decide anything (other than confusion of course).

Your point that there are better reasons for the phenomenon of belief
than the object of belief may lead to a rat's nest of unnecessary
complexity. I think I know what you're implying, but I'd like to see
your version of this better alternative just the same.

After tons of mail, could we move this discussion to alt.religion?
--There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke. (Bob Dylan)
--"If you were happy every day of your life you wouldn't be a human
being, you'd be a game show host." (taken from the movie "Heathers.")
--Lecture (LEK chur) - process by which the notes of the professor
become the notes of the student without passing through the minds of
either.

It is true that Mormons believe that all spirits (including Jesus,
Lucifer, Robert Weiss) are in the same family.  It does not mean
that Jesus was created, but rather that Lucifer and Robert Weiss
were not.  I agree that this is a "heresy".  So what?  
The sweating of blood in Gethsemene is
not a basic Mormon doctrine.  Jesus did not perform the atonement
in Getheseme alone, as some anti-Mormons are trying to teach.  
As far as the "unpardonable sin" whatever that is, it is Biblical,
and not specifically Mormon.  It is also called the sin against
the Holy Ghost.  Most Bible scholars (other than conservative
ones) do not believe Jehovah and Elohim were always the same.
I'm sure you've heard of the J and the E texts?  I don't
know what you mean by "That He needed to be saved".  Jesus?
Jehovah?  Elohim?  In Mormon doctrine, Jesus was sinless,
and thus did not "need to be saved".  

-- 
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 

Still searching for an irrelevant issue in which to mire a pro-lifer, I see.
Slimy tactic.

Huh, if ignorance is strength, then I won't distribute this piece
of information if I want to follow your advice (contradiction above).

Cheers,
Kent

Christian anti-Semitism comes from the obvious fact that the Jews should
know the Hebrew Scriptures better than anyone else, yet they did not
convert to Christianity en mass, thus rejecting "Christian Love."

[deletia wrt pathetic Jee-zus posting by Bissel] 

NO. He hasn't extended to US the courtesy you've shown us, so he don't get no
pie. Tammy, I respect your beliefs because you don't try to stamp them into
my being. I have scorn for posters whose sole purpose appears to be to
evangelize.

  If I'm wrong, god is free at any time to correct my mistake.  That
  he continues not to do so, while supposedly proclaiming his
  undying love for my eternal soul, speaks volumes.

  As for the trap, you are not in a position to tell me that I don't
  believe in god because I do not wish to.  Unless you can know my
  motivations better than I do myself, you should believe me when I
  say that I earnestly searched for god for years and never found
  him.

(1)  Stephen said you took a quote out of context
(2)  You noted that Stephen had not replied to some other t.r.m article
     (call it A) that took a quote out of context
(3)  But the lack of evidence for X does not constitute evidence for the
     lack of X  (a common creationist error)
(4)  So the fact that Stephen did not reply to A does not justify the
     conclusion that Stephen condoned taking quotes out of context in A
(5)  You asked Stephen to explain why you were wrong and they were OK,
     or to acknowledge that he was being a hypocrite.  
(6)  Both of the choices you give Stephen assume that he condoned
     taking quotes out of context in A.
(7)  I assumed you were being logical, and that the sentence that begins
     "Could you please explain ..." was not a nonsequitur, but was intended
     to follow from the sentence that preceded it.
(8)  Therefore, I concluded that you believed that (2) implied that Stephen
     condoned taking quotes out of context in A
(9)  But we've already seen that (2) does not imply this
(10) Therefore, you were incorrect to believe that (2) implied that Stephen
     thought it was okay to take quotes out of context in A, and were 
     making an error of a kind that is frequently made by creationists.

Is that better Jim?   It's called an argument.  If you disagree with it,
explain why the argument is not sound.  (I admit that my assumption in (7)
may have been a bit hasty.)  If you agree with it, just say "yup."

But with cheaper fuel from space based sources it will be cheaper to 
reach more orbits than from the ground.

Also remember, that the presence of a repair/supply facility adds value
to the space around it. If you can put your satellite in an orbit where it
can be reached by a ready source of supply you can make it cheaper and gain
benefit from economies of scale.

  Allen

Pardon me?   *I* am trying to apply human terms to non-humans?

I think there must be some confusion here.   I'm the guy who is
saying that if animal behaviour is instinctive then it does *not*
have any moral sugnificance.   How does refusing to apply human
terms to animals get turned into applying human terms?

I'm sure you do think this, if you say so.   How about trying to
convince me?

I've offered, four times, I think, to accept your definition if
you allow me to ascribe moral significence to the orbital motion
of the planets.

Ah, the law of "silly" and "less silly".   what Mr Livesey finds 
intuitive is "silly" but what Mr Schneider finds intuitive is "less 
silly".

Now that's a devastating argument, isn't it.

If a person gives a well-balanced reasoned argument, Tammy, then all are
happy to discuss it with him.  If he makes astounding claims, which are not
backed up with any evidence then he must be expected to substantiate them.
If the original author had said that everything was his own opinion and not
supportable then people would have simply ignored him.  He did not.  He
claimed many things and his logic was seriously flawed.  His argument was for
christianity in an effort to try to convince atheists like myself to believe
him and his message.  I for one will not take things as read.  If you told me
that pink fluffy elephants did the dance of the sugar plum fairy on the dark
side of Jupiter then I would demand evidence!

Adda

McDonnell Douglas rolls out DC-X

        HUNTINGTON BEACH, Calif. -- On a picture-perfect Southern
California day, McDonnell Douglas rolled out its DC-X rocket ship last
Saturday.  The company hopes this single-stage rocket technology
demonstrator will be the first step towards a single-stage-to-orbit (SSTO)
rocket ship.

        The white conical vehicle was scheduled to go to the White Sands
Missile Range in New Mexico this week.  Flight tests will start in
mid-June.

        Although there wasn't a cloud in the noonday sky, the forecast for
SSTO research remains cloudy.  The SDI Organization -- which paid $60
million for the DC-X -- can't itself afford to fund full development of a
follow-on vehicle.  To get the necessary hundreds of millions required for
a sub-orbital DC-XA, SDIO is passing a tin cup among its sister government
agencies.

        SDIO originally funded SSTO research as a way to cut the costs for
orbital deployments of space-based sensors and weapns.  However, recent
changes in SDI's political marching orders and budget cuts have made SSTO
less of a priority.  Today, the agency is more interested in using DC-X as
a step towards a low-cost, reusable sounding rocket.

        SDIO has already done 50 briefings to other government agencies,
said Col.  Simon "Pete" Worden, SDIO's deputy for technology.  But Worden
declined to say how much the agencies would have to pony up for the
program. "I didn't make colonel by telling my contractors how much money I
have available to spend," he quipped at a press conference at McDonnell
Douglas Astronautics headquarters.

        While SDIO has lowered its sights on the program's orbital
objective, agency officials hail the DC-X as an example of the "better,
faster, cheaper" approach to hardware development.  The agency believes
this philosophy can produce breakthroughs that "leapfrog" ahead of
evolutionary technology developments.

        Worden said the DC-X illustrates how a "build a little, test a
little" approach can produce results on time and within budget.  He said
the program -- which went from concept to hardware in around 18 months --
showed how today's engineers could move beyond the "miracles of our
parents' time."

        "The key is management," Worden said. "SDIO had a very light hand
on this project.  We had only one overworked major, Jess Sponable."

        Although the next phase may involve more agencies, Worden said
lean management and a sense of government-industry partnership will be
crucial. "It's essential we do not end up with a large management
structure where the price goes up exponentially."

        SDIO's approach also won praise from two California members of the
House Science, Space and Technology Committee. "This is the direction
we're going to have to go," said Rep.  George Brown, the committee's
Democratic chairman. "Programs that stretch aout 10 to 15 years aren't
sustainable....NASA hasn't learned it yet.  SDIO has."

        Rep.  Dana Rohrbacher, Brown's Republican colleague, went further.
Joking that "a shrimp is a fish designed by a NASA design team,"
Rohrbacher doubted that the program ever would have been completed if it
were left to the civil space agency.

        Rohrbacher, whose Orange County district includes McDonnell
Douglas, also criticized NASA-Air Force work on conventional, multi-staged
rockets as placing new casings around old missile technology. "Let's not
build fancy ammunition with capsules on top.  Let's build a spaceship!"

         Although Rohrbacher praised SDIO's sponsorship, he said the
private sector needs to take the lead in developing SSTO technology.

        McDonnell Douglas, which faces very uncertain prospects with its
C-17 transport and Space Station Freedom programs, were more cautious
about a large private secotro commitment. "On very large ventures,
companies put in seed money," said Charles Ordahl, McDonnell Douglas'
senior vice president for space systems. "You need strong government
investments."

        While the government and industry continue to differ on funding
for the DC-XA, they agree on continuing an incremental approach to
development.  Citing corporate history, they liken the process to Douglas
Aircraft's DC aircraft.  Just as two earlier aircraft paved the way for
the DC-3 transport, a gradual evolution in single-stage rocketry could
eventually lead to an orbital Delta Clipper (DC-1).

        Flight tests this summer at White Sands will "expand the envelope"
of performance, with successive tests increasing speed and altitude.  The
first tests will reach 600 feet and demonstrate hovering, verticle
take-off and landing.  The second series will send the unmanned DC-X up to
5,000 feet.  The third and final series will take the craft up to 20,000
feet.

        Maneuvers will become more complex on third phase.  The final
tests will include a "pitch-over" manever that rotates the vehicle back
into a bottom-down configuration for a soft, four-legged landing.

        The flight test series will be supervised by Charles "Pete"
Conrad, who performed similar maneuvers on the Apollo 12 moon landing.
Now a McDonnell Douglas vice president, Conrad paised the vehicles
aircraft-like approach to operations.  Features include automated
check-out and access panels for easy maintainance.

        If the program moves to the next stage, engine technology will
become a key consideration.  This engine would have more thrust than the
Pratt & Whitney RL10A-5 engines used on the DC-X.  Each motor uses liquid
hydrogen and liquid oxygen propellants to generate up to 14,760 pounds of
thrust

        Based on the engine used in Centaur upper stages, the A-5 model
has a thrust champer designed for sea level operation and three-to-on
throttling capability.  It also is designed for repeat firings and rapid
turnaround.

        Worden said future single-stage rockets could employ
tri-propellant engine technology developed in the former Soviet Union.
The resulting engines could burn a dense hydrocarbon fuel at takeoff and
then switch to liquid hydrogen at higher altitudes.

: 
: Probably not.  But then, I don't pack heavy weaponry with intent to use it.
: You don't really think he should have been allowed to keep that stuff do 
: you?  If so, tell me where you live so I can be sure to steer well clear.

I understand that they had the neccessary licenses and permits to own
automatic weapons.  

: The public also has rights, and they should be placed above those of the
: individual.  Go ahead, call me a commie, but you'd be singing a different
: tune if I exercised my right to rape your daughter.  He broke the law, he
: was a threat to society, they did there job - simple.

I haven't seen any proof (or even evidence) that the BD's had broken the
law.  If you have proof (or evidence), let's hear it.  "The FBI said so" is
NOT evidence.

:  
: I'll support them all (except no. 2)

#
#ra>

(...)

crew, with no positive message to me or any other Latter-day Saint...

#

(...)

#

of satan's spirit-origin (and of those who followed him) has not been

(...)

Or perhaps it's because they think that all governmental bodies should be in
the business of suppressing all beliefs other than their own, or else they're
some sort of Satanic Humanist Conspiracy.

It's the old "if you're not for us you're against us" bit.

: >We could start with those posters who annoy us the most, like Bobby or
: >Bill.

: Your wish is my command.

: Bill "Shit-stirrer" Connor
: Bobby "Circular" Mozumder

I'm not sure my new nom d'net is exactly appropriate, but it comes
very close. Considering what I have to wade through before I make one
of my insightful, dead-on-the-money repsonses, I have to agree that
something's getting stirred up. I would like to believe my
characterization of what I respond to would be kinder though, but if
you insist ...

I am also surprised to find that I have offended anyone, but in some
cases it's unavoidable if I am to say anything at all. For those to
whom fairness is important, check out my contributions, haven't I been
most generous and patient, a veritable paragon of gentility?

Oh, BTW, I don't mind being paired with Bobby; I admire his tenacity.
How many of you would do as well in this hostile environment - you
think -I'm- offensive ?! read your own posts ...

Love and kisses,

Bill

P.S.

But you haven't taken into the account of propoganda.  Remember, if you
asked Germans before WWII if the Jews shoudl be slaughtered, they would
probably answer no, but, after the propoganda machine rolled through, at
least some were able to tolerate it.

You see, it only takes a small group of fanatics to whip up a general
frenzy.

Well, they haven't managed to outlaw abortion due to the possible objectivity
of the courts.  But, they have managed to create quite a few problems for
people that wanted to have an abortion.  They could create similar problems
for us.  And, it could be worse.  They can try to stop abortions by blocking
clinics, etc., but imagine what they'd have to do to stop atheism.

So, you are able to convince them individually, but could you convince a
whole room of them?  A whole nation?

Yes, I'd be glad if it were gone to.  I've never supported it.  However,
I think that it is a minor problem that can be easily ignored, contrasted
with what *could* happen (an what may be likely).

Well, I am not clear on the religious convictions of Francis Scott Key (the
motto can be attributed to him), but it is at least clear that he believed
in a god.  And, surely there are a few Christians that think as you say,
but I don't think that most do.  Do you think that all Christians actively
despise other religions?  Most that I have met haven't and don't do so.

Well, I have asked a Hindu, Moselem, and a few Jews, and all of them think
that it is applicable to them.  Of course, I can't say that these people
(just some that I know pretty well) are accurate representations of their
faiths.

Well, I'd really like to, and I've tried, but I really don't know where to
get access to _Congressional Records_ from the 1950's.  Can anyone help
out here?

Only in the sense that neither can probably convinced to change their beliefs.

So, are you saying that they redesign the plates each year?

Anyway, your whole argument (conveniently deleted I see) was that the motto
somehow costs us all a lot of money.  This is just not correct.

That is to say, the religion of this country, and the non-religion of
the USSR.  That was what most of those quotes were about, and some included
all atheists, in general, as well.  I don't think that any of the quotes
(although I seem to have lost them) mentioned anything at all about Jesus.
They advocated religion over non-religion.  A specific religion was not
mentioned.

So, you are saying that all Christians must believe that all other religions
should be outlawed, just because they think they are wrong?  That's silly.
I think the Flat-Earthers are wrong, but I don't advocate their banishment.

I think that any such cost would be insignificant.  I mentioned the slight
cost because you said that the motto was costing us a lot of money by
being on our currency.

Well, mottos in general don't really have purposes...  I don't think it
should be removed because I think the benefit would be outweighed by the
consequences.

Then you should be concerned with the opinion of the entire congress.

Why not?  It is the majority that put it there.

But do they remember the debate surrounding the motto?  Do they remember
that some people intended it to be a message against atheists?  Why don't
you include this in your little survey that you were conducting?

[...]

What?  Should I ask some scientists the probability that something Einstein
said about relativity is worthy?  I mean, if Einstein said it, there's a
good chance that it was right (at least at the time).

You need not agree with them all of the time, but you would certainly think
that their decisions would be good evidence in favor of some point.

No, I think that it would be clearly inappropriate for a Supreme Court
Justice to testify before Congress during the consideration of a
Constitutional Amendment.

And, in order for the Court to rule on something, a case usually must be
presented.

Yes, some mushrooms can be planted.  And, I don't appreciate mushrooms on
my pizza, either.

Who was forced to put the motto there?  What do you mean?

It amazes me that you have the audacity to say that human creation was not
the result of the natural process of evolution (but rather an "act of God")
and then in the same post say that these other processes (volcanos et al.)
are natural occurrences.  Who gave YOU the right to choose what things are
natural processes and what are direct acts of God?  How do you know that
God doesn't cause each and every natural disaster with a specific purpose
in mind?  It would certainly go along with the sadistic nature I've seen in
the bible.

Adam & Eve (TWO PEOPLE), even tho they had the honor (or so you christians
claim) of being the first two, definitely do NOT represent a majority in
the billions and trillions (probably more) of people that have come after
them.  Perhaps they were the majority then, but *I* (and YOU) weren't
around to vote, and perhaps we might have voted differently about what to
do with that tree.  But your god never asked us.  He just assumes that if
you have two bad people then they ALL must be bad.  Hmm.  Sounds like the
same kind of false generalization that I see many of the theists posting
here resorting to.  So THAT's where they get it... shoulda known.

Nanci

My CorelDRAW 3.0.whatever write SCODL files directly. Look under File|Export
on the main menu. 

I am trying to configure Zsoft's PC Paintbrush IV+ for use with my
Logitech Scanman 32 (hand scanner), but I can't get Paintbrush to
acknowledge the scanner. Is there anybody out there using Paintbrush
with a scanner, if so, can you help me out?
                                Thanks Luis Nobrega
                                                                                      
I am trying to convert an m-motion (IBM) video file format YUV to RGB 
data...

THE Y portion is a byte from 0-255
THE V is a byte -127-127
THe color is U and V
and the intensity is Y

DOes anyone have any ideas for algorhtyms or programs ?

Can someone tell me where to get info on the U and V of a television signal ?

IF you need more info reply at the e-mail address...
Basically what I am doing is converting a digital NTSC format to RGB (VGA)
for displaying captured video pictures.

Thanks.

Grumblegrumble...   

unfortunately the logic falls apart quick: all-perfect > insulted or
threatened by the actions of a lesser creature > actually by offspring >
???????????????????

How/why shuold any all-powerful all-perfect feel either proud or offended?
Anything capable of being aware of the relationship of every aspect of every 
particle in the universe during every moment of time simultaneously should
be able to understand the cause of every action of every 'cell globule' on
each tniy planet...

"All-powerful, Owner Of Everything in the Universe Makes Great Sacrifices"
makes a great headline but it doesn't make any sense.  What did he
sacrifice?  Where did it go that he couldn't get it back?  If he gave
something up, who'd he give it up to?

-chris

[rest deleted...]

You were a liberal arts major, weren'tcha?

Guess you never saw that photo of the smallest logo in the world--
"IBM" made with noble gas atoms (krypton? xenon? I forget the
specifics).

Atoms, trees, electrons are all independently observable and
verifiable. Morals aren't. See the difference?

Tep

	Why "must"?

--- 

     What  evidence  indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away?

Their distribution is very isotropic and the intensity distribution,
crudely speaking, indicates we're seeing an edge to the distribution.

   Given the enormous  power,  i was just wondering,  what if they are
   quantum  black holes or something  like that  fairly close by?

   Why would they have to be at  galactic ranges?   

Now, in the good old days before GRO data, it was thought the
gamma bursters were neutron stars in the galaxy, it was expected that
GRO would confirm this by either showing they were a local population
(within a few hundred light years) or that they were in the galactic
halo. (Mechanism was not known but several plausible ones existed)
(also to be fair it was noted that the _brightest_ burster was
probably in the LMC, suggesting theorists might be wrong back then...)
	As the Sun is not at the center of the galaxy a halo
population should show anisotropy (a local disk population is
ruled out completely at this stage) - to avoid the anisotropy you
have to push the halo out, the energy then gets large, the mechanism
of getting NS out that far becomes questionable, and we should start
to see for example the Andromeda's bursters.
	The data is consistent with either a Oort cloud distribution
(but only just) - but no one can think of a plausible source with
the right spectrum. Or, it can be a cosmological distances (hence
isotropy) and the edge is "the edge of the Universe" ;-)
If at cosmological distances you need very high energy (to detect)
and a very compact source (for spectrum), ergo a neutron star
colliding with another neutron star or black hole. Even then getting
the spectrum is very hard, but conceivable.

	If we know anything about physics at that level,
the bursters are not due to quantum black holes or cosmic
strings, wrong spectrum for one thing.

The situation is further complicated by recent claims that
there are two classes of sources ;-)  [in the colliding NS
they'd actually probably fit relatively easily into the
NS-NS and NS-BH collision scenarios respectively]

   my own pet theory is that it's  Flying saucers  entering
   hyperspace :-)

   but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes  that they
   are  colliding nuetron stars  or  spinning black holes,  i just wondered
   if any mechanism could exist  and place them  closer in.

If you can think of one, remember to invite me to Stockholm...

I would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an
object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital
velocity.  For a target 300 km above the surface of Earth,
you need a delta-v of 2.5 km/s.  Assuming that rockets with specific
impulses of 300 seconds are easy to produce, a rocket with a dry
weight of 50 kg would require only about 65 kg of fuel+oxidizer.
A small dispersal charge embedded in about 20 kg of sand or
birdshot (depending on the nature of the structure) would be
the payload.  I am sure the whole project is well within
the capability of the amateur rocketry community.

It sounds like a good Science Fair project--'Reduction
of Light Pollution Through Applied Ballistics'.
Or, it could be part of the Challenge Prize being discussed
here: $1 billion for the first person to spend 1 year
on the moon, $1 million for the first erradication of
an orbital eyesore/CCD burner.  I wouldpledge $1000
for the first person to bring it down, and I am sure
there are at least 999 other astronomers, nature lovers,
or just plain people of good taste who would do likewise.

Of course, a  Gerald Bull solution might be simpler.
(Either the solution Gerald Bull would apply--the use
of a large caliber gun; or the solution which was applied
to Gerald Bull--the use of a small caliber gun.)

You know, it just occurred to me today that this whole Christian thing
can be blamed solely on Mary.

So, she's married to Joseph.  She gets knocked up.  What do you think
ol' Joe will do if he finds she's been getting around?  So Mary comes up
with this ridiculous story about God making her pregnant.  Actually, it
can't be all THAT ridiculous, considering the number of people that
believe it.  Anyway, she never tells anyone the truth, and even tells
poor little Jesus that he's hot shit, the Son of God.  Everyone else
tells him this too, since they've bought Mary's story.  So, what does
Mary actually turn out to be?  An adultress and a liar, and the cause of
mankind's greatest folly...

Just my recently-minted two cents.

Chris

Hi,
It might be nice to know, what's possible on different hard ware platforms.
But usually the hard ware is fixed ( in my case either Unix or DOS- PC ).
So I'm not much interested in Amiga news. 

In the case of Software, I won't get any comercial software mentioned in this
newgroup to run on a Unix- platform, so I'm not interested in this information.

I would suggest to split the group. I don't see the problem of cross-posting.
Then you need to read just 2 newgroups with half the size. 

BUT WHAT WOULD BE MORE IMPORTANT IS TO HAVE A FAQ. THIS WOULD REDUCE THE
TRAFFIC A LOT.

Sincerely, Gerhard

You have missed something.  There is a big difference between being in
the SAME PLANE and in exactly the same state (positions and velocities
equal).  IN addition to this, there has always been redundancies proposed.

Bob
--

So that still leaves the door totally open for Khomeini, Hussein
et rest. They could still be considered true Muslims, and you can't
judge them, because this is something between God and the person.

You have to apply your rule as well with atheists/agnostics, you
don't know their belief, this is something between them and God.

So why the hoopla about Khomeini not being a real Muslim, and the
hoopla about atheists being not real human beings?

Cheers,
Kent

I understand there have been a couple of raves in LA billing themselves as
"Virtual Reality" parties. What I hear they do is project .GIF images around
on the walls, as well as run animations through a Newtek Toaster.

Seems like we need to adopt the term Really Virtual Reality or something, except
for the non-immersive stuff which is Virtually Really Virtual Reality.

etc.

___Samuel___

I agree, I reckon it's television and the increase in fundamentalism.. You
think its the increase in pre-marital sex... others thinks its because
psychologists have taken over the criminal justice system and let violent
criminals con them into letting them out into the streets... others think
it's the increase in designer drugs... others think it's a communist plot.
Basically the social interactions of all the changing factors in our society
are far too complicated for us to control. We just have to hold on to the
panic handles and hope that we are heading for a soft landing. But one
things for sure, depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is not
due solely to sex out of marriage.

Jeff.

Speech by Pete Worden
                                    
          Delivered Before the U.S. Space Foundation Conference
                                    
                       Colorado Springs, Colorado
                                    
                             April 15, 1993

     What a delightful opportunity to cause some trouble.  For
providing me this forum I would sincerely like to thank the U.S.
Space Foundation.  My topic today is the Single Stage Rocket
Technology rocket or SSRT.  By I intend to speak of more.  How to
lower the cost and make rapid progress.  SSRT is to my mind --
and I hope to convince you -- the erupting a new rallying cry for
our generation in space -- Faster, Cheaper, and Better.

     Faster, Cheaper, Better and SSRT represent the passing of a
torch from one technical generation to another.  It is a new
thing to be sure -- but it is also a relearning of old things
from past masters.

     When we rolled out the SSRT baby two weeks ago, so called
experts told us it violates the laws of physics -- it made no
sense.  For example, Dr. Eberhart Rachtin - former president of
the Aerospace Corp., said of SSRT in the L.A. Times that it,
"defies the best principles of launching payloads into space." 
Well Dr. Rachtin -- you've made us mad!  What are these
principles that SSRT defies?

     Well I'll tell you.  It violates the principle that you need
a giant program office to build space hardware.  It violates the
"fact" that it takes 20 years to build something new.  And it
violates the truism that you cant do anything significant for
less than many billions of dollars.

     It took some of the last generation's experts to teach us
some new/old lessons.  Werhner Von Braun's first rocket was not a
Saturn V.  General Schriever's ICBM's didn't take ten years to
demonstrate.  And the X-1 airplane didn't cost $1 billion.

     It took one of the great engineers of the 1950's to remind
us of these truths -- Max Hunter.  Max, to remind you, was a
senior engineer in the Thor IRBM program, and old faster, better,
cheaper success story.  Max has been persistent in a vision of a
single stage reusable space launch system since the 1960's. 
Because he knew it had to be done in affordable steps - Build a
little, Test a little.

     Next he persuaded us to do a technology demonstration.  We
didn't solicit a bunch of requirements -- they'd just change
every few years anyway.  [ not included in the speech -- The
ALS/NLS has such ephemeral requirements that it would better
known as "Shape Shifter" than "Space Lifter."  We didn't spend a
lot money -- this X-Rocket only cost $60 million.  When's the
last time we even built a new airplane for that?  And it didn't
take a lot of time to build -- McDonnell Douglas completed it in
18 months.  Finally, the government program office consisted of
one very over-worked Air Force Major -- motivated in part by the
threat that he'd get to ride on it in a strapped-on lawn chair if
it ran over cost or schedule.

     As I described what SSRT is -- and isn't keep in mind its
only a first step.  There are several more steps -- and steps
that can easily fail -- before the U.S. can field an SSTO.  But
each step should follow the same principles -- a small management
team -- a few years technology demonstration -- and a modest
budget.

     Let me show a few details on SSRT and how it might evolve:
(See charts)

     I'm embarrassed when my generation is compared with the last
generation -- the giants of the last great space era, the 1950's
and 1960's.  They went to the moon - we built a telescope that
can't see straight.  They soft-landed on Mars - the least we
could do is soft-land on Earth!

     But we do have an answer.  We can follow their build a
little, test a little philosophy to produce a truly affordable
and routine access to space.  I know there are nay sayers among
you -- those who say SSRT is a stunt.  It needs more thermal
protection, the engines are wrong, it would be better to land
horizontally, etc, etc.

     I say to you -- we'll see you at White Sands in June.  You
bring your view-graphs, and I'll bring my rocketship.  If we do
what we say we can do, then you let us do the next step.  [ not
included in the speech:  If we fail -- you still have your
program offices, staff summary sheets, requirement analyses, and
decade long programs.]

ZOROASTRIANISM
SAN JOSE, CA, USA
Monday April 5, 1993
San Jose Mercury News, Page 1
     [Reproduced without permission]

_3,700-year tradition still glows - 
           'Assimilation in U.S. threatens ancient Zoroastrian religion'_

By Jeanne Huber, Mercury News Staff Writer

   HIGH ON A HILLSIDE above San Jose, flames leap up 24 hours a day from a
gleaming brass urn in a temple - one of only four in the United States -
dedicated to one of the world's most ancient religions.

   With the flames go the prayers of about 1,200 Bay Area Zoroastrians that
their faith will survive this land.

   "There is a fear - a real fear, too," said Silloo Tarapore of Lafayette.
"We have one generation to do it or to die."

   Many immigrant groups struggle to maintain an identity in a strange land.
But for Zoroastrians, it is an especially poignant concern.

   Their religion has been around for perhaps 3,700 years, a heritage so deep
it scarcely seems comprehensible in a state where "historical sites" are
sometimes less than 100 years old.  It was the religion of the great Persian
Empire under kings Cyrus and Darius.  And tradition says that when Christ
was born about 500 years later, he was honored by a visit from three
Zoroastrian priests, the Magi.  Scholars say many key beliefs of Christians,
Jews and Muslims can be traced to the teachings of Zoroaster, the
Zoroastrian prophet.

   Yet, with only about 150,000 Zoroastrians in the entire world, they are 
a miniscule minority in every country in which they live.  Survival as a
people is very much on their minds.

   Ironically, local Zoroastrians fear that the almost unlimited tolerance
of the United States may do what hundreds of years of persecution followed
by nearly 1,000 years of benign religious segregation could not do: cause
their young people to stop thinking of themselves as Zoroastrians.

   Zoroastrians do not believe theirs is the only right religion, and they
actually shun the notion of trying to win converts.  So if their children
become totally assimilated, they say, it's their children - rather than
the world at large - who will be the losers.

   "It's important to have an identity," said Maneck Bhujwaia of San Jose,
a leader among Zoroastrians who came here from India.  "It's important
for everybody - Irish, Scottish, Americans.  It gives meaning to life.
You don't have to depend on the majority community to give you respect.
You can fall back on your own identity."

   For Zoroastrians, there's much to be proud of.

   Their prophet, Zoroaster, seeking to make sense of a culture in which
animal sacrifice to multiple gods was common, preached that there was
only one god, a good one.  Zoroastrians call their god Ahura Mazda, which
translates as Lord of Wisdom and Light.

_Good vs. evil_

   Zoroaster saw life as a constant struggle between good and evil, with
the good eventually winning.  Men and women could join in the battle for
good, he said, and he warned that they would inevitably suffer consequences
such as shame and sorrow if they did wrong.  He preached honesty, charity,
kindness to animals, respect for the environment, hard work, equality of
men and women - basic virtues preached by prophets of many religions.

   But Zoroaster was perhaps unusual in that he told his followers not to
follow him blindly.  He demanded they think for themselves.  In fact,
Joseph Campbell, the famous scholar of the history and meaning of myths,
traced the Western emphasis on individual thought to the Zoroastrians.

   Zoroastrians have many words for thought.  Their motto, leaded into a
stained glass window over the sacred fire at the temple on the slopes of
Mount Hamilton, is "Good thoughts, good words, good deeds."

   So it's not surprising that Zoroastrians value education highly.  In India,
where a contingent of Zoroastrians arrived in the ninth century to escape
persecution by Muslims in Iran, Zoroastrians claim 100 percent literacy;
the overall statistic in India is just 60 percent.

   About half of the Bay Area Zoroastrian community came here from India
and Pakistan, mostly to study at universities.  The other half fled from
Iran after the 1979 revolution made that a fundamentalist Islamic state
where others had no rights.

   Local Zoroastrians point with pride to ways their emphasis on "good
deeds" has improved life in every country they inhabit.  In San Jose,
the recent restoration of the Hotel Sainte Clarie came about because
Manou Mobedshahi, a San Francisco-based hotelier, passed the boarded-up
downtown landmark on his way to and from the temple.  At the temple's
dedication, the chief guest of honor was the mother of Zubin Mehta, the
Zoroastrian conductor of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra.

   The temple exists because of another good deed: the decision by an
Iranian emigre, the late Arbab Rustom Guiv, to buy land for six temples
in North America.  Besides the 10-acre site off Crothers Road on Mount
Hamilton, he paid for land in Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, Toronto,
and Vancouver.  Until his gifts, there were no Zoroastrian temples on
this continent.

   Local Zoroastrians raised money to build the actual temple, and the
property already had a large house that they have converted to a
community center.

   The temple, dedicated a year ago on the birthday of the prophet 
Zoroaster, is a simple structure with gleaming white walls, vaulted 
ceilings and oak floors, partially covered with huge Oriental carpets.

   Its central feature is the fire, set in the middle of a partly-glassed-
in area at the center of the building.  Although Zoroastrians are 
sometimes called "fire worshippers," they actually consider fire just 
a symbol of God.  "It helps us concentrate, just like Christians use the 
cross and Muslims use the Holy Book," Bhujwala said.

   The biggest celebration of the years occurs in early spring.  For all
Iranians, including Zoroastrians, the New Year begins on the first day of
the season because of its symbolism as the start of new life.  With
Zoroaster's birthday just six days later, the combination of religious
and secular holidays creates something on par with what most of the
United States celebrates between Christmas and Jan. 1.

  For this year's celebration of the prophet's birthday, about 500 people
came to worship and revel.

   "The good things in life are not forbidden," Esfandiar Anoushiravani,
a leader of the Iranian members, had said beforehand, and what followed
proved him right.

   Inside the temple, worshipers filled every chair and sat or stood
around the edges of the room as about a half-dozen priests chanted
thanksgiving prayers around a table laden with braziers of smoking
sandalwood, glasses of milk and water, and a tray heaped with dried fruit
and nuts.

   Kids crowded around, grabbing handfuls of the treats.  "People eat the
fruit," Tarapore said.  "It's a way to participate in the ceremony."

_Santa Claus, sort of_

   The gathering even had a Santa Claus, Iranian style.  With flowing white
hair and a bag of gifts for the children, this Amownaroz wore green
symbolic of spring) and red.

   He was ushed in by a sort of spring clown, Hajefyrouz, who danced and
played a tambourine.

   The Zoroastrians from India were charmed.  "This is all new for us, too,"
one told a visitor who asked what was going on.

   A visitor, John A. Sabanovich of Folsom, said he became intrigued with
the religion years ago while on business trips to Iran.  Zoroastrians have
no procedure for accepting converts - a result, some say, of their
centuries of persecution in Iran followed by their promise to the Hindu
king who allowed them into India that they would not interfere with his
people's religion.

   But that does not stop Sabavich from joining in the celebrations at the
San Jose temple whenever he can.

   "When I first heard about this religion," he said, "I thought, my God,
this is what a religion should be.  They think for themselves and do good.

   "People who don't have a tradition, something to lean on, what's the
difference with the lower animals?"

Jesus certainly demonstrated the great depth of his love for the
children who died today at the Davidian complex.

Sorry, but the events today made me even more negative concering
organized religion.

Cheers,
Kent

Phil> Didn't one of the early jet fighters have these?  I also think
Phil> the germans did some work on these in WWII.

The NACA came up with them before World War II.  NASA is directly
descended from the NACA, with space added in.

You'll notice that I didn't mention sweep wings even though the
X-5, tested at what's now Dryden, had them.  We did steal that one
dirctly from the Germans.  The difference is that swept wings don't
change their angle of sweep, sweep wings do.  Perhaps the similarity
of names has caused some confusion?  747s have swept wings, F-111s
have sweep wings.

Phil> A lot of this was also done by the military...

After NASA aerodynamicists proposed them and NASA test teams
demonstrated them.  Richard Whitcomb and R.T. Jones, at Langley
Research Center, were giants in the field.

Dryden was involved in the flight testing of winglets and area
ruling (in the 70s and 50s, respectively).  It's true that we
used military aircraft as the testbeds (KC-135 and YF-102) but
that had more to do with availability and need than with military
involvement.  The YF-102 was completely ours and the KC-135 was
bailed to us.  The Air Force, of course, was interested in our
results and supportive of our efforts.

Dryden flew the first digital fly by wire aircraft in the 70s. No
mechnaical or analog backup, to show you how confident we were.
General Dynamics decided to make the F-16 flyby-wire when they saw how
successful we were.  (Mind you, the Avro Arrow and the X-15 were both
fly-by-wire aircraft much earlier, but analog.)

Phil> Egad! I'm disagreeing with Mary Shafer!  

The NASA habit of acquiring second-hand military aircraft and using
them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing.  On the other
hand, all those second-hand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
to fold the wings--something most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
can't do.

[deleted]

The person who was telling me about the Septuagint version said that the Greeks
had a wonderful library in Alexandria that was full of manuscripts/scrolls
and that it was burned soon after the Septuagint version was translated 
(perhaps to conceal some changes in the different versions, or perhaps just
as part of the typical burning of valuable things that occurs during changes
in power groups, he/I dunno).

Well, perhaps this is the answer then.

[deleted]

Thanks for the tips.  Now I just have to find someone to teach me Samaritan :)

Just me,

little 'e'

(so, is a "good Samaritan hard to find?" or "is a hard... " Oh, finish this
yourself.)

And doubtless, when an atheist does an act of charity
they temporarily become a Baptist.

Lucky for them that the baby didn't have any obvious deformities!  I could
just see it now: Mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and
Joseph say that it was God that got her pregnant and then the baby turns
out to be deformed, or even worse, stillborn!  They'd have a lot of
explaining to do.... :-)

There is an excellent software program called Astro.calc that does that and
much more.  The latest address I have is

	MMI Corporation
	PO Box 19907
	Baltimore, MD  21211
	Phone (301) 366-1222

-- 
Van E. Neie                                      ven@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu
Purdue University                                neie@purccvm.bitnet

I'm getting ready to buy a multimedia workstation and would like a little
advice.  I need a graphics card that will do video in and out under windows.
I was originally thinking of a Targa+ but that doesn't work under Windows.
What cards should I be looking into?

Thanks,
Craig

Any lunar satellite needs fuel to do regular orbit corrections, and when
its fuel runs out it will crash within months.  The orbits of the Apollo
motherships changed noticeably during lunar missions lasting only a few
days.  It is *possible* that there are stable orbits here and there --
the Moon's gravitational field is poorly mapped -- but we know of none.

Perturbations from Sun and Earth are relatively minor issues at low
altitudes.  The big problem is that the Moon's own gravitational field
is quite lumpy due to the irregular distribution of mass within the Moon.

Hi there

I am very interested in Rayshade 4.00. I have managed to make a chessboard
for Rayshade. Unfortunately I still have to do the knight (horse). Any ideas?
I am also looking for a surface for the chesspieces. The board is marble.
Unfortunately black won't work very well for the one side. Anybody with ideas
for nice surfaces?

I would also like to use the image command of rayshade and the heightfield
command. Unfortunately the manual is very vague about this, and I don't have
Craig Kolb's email address. Anybody with ideas, because this is essential
for my next venture into raytracing.

Where should I post the finished chessboard?

Is there anybody else using rayshade on non-Unix systems?

How fast does Unix render?

Thanks

My argument is mainly a proposal of what I think is a plausible argument
against extra-marital sex -- one which I personally believe has some
truth.  My main purpose for posting it here is to show that a
_plausible_ argument can be made against extra-marital sex.  At this
stage I am not saying that this particular viewpoint is proven or
anything like that, just that it is plausible.  To try to convince you
all of this particular point of view, I would probably have to do a lot
of work researching what has been done in this field, etc., in order to
gather further evidence, which I simply do not have time to do now.  

Also note that I said that I think extra-marital sex is "a prime cause"
(in my opinion) of the generally greater levels of psychological
problems, especially depression, in Western societies.  I am not saying
it is "the prime cause" or "the only cause", just "a prime cause" --
i.e. one of the significant contributions to this trend.  I think when
you say you think my view is simplistic, you have forgotten this -- I
admit that there are probably other factors, but I do think that
extra-marital sex (and, IMO, subsequent destabilization of the family)
is a significant factor in the rise in psychological problems like
depression in Western society this century.

The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once he's
finished writing a sequel to the Bible.

Wasn't there a "plain" flavor too?  They looked more like some
kind of extruded industrial product than food -- perfectly
smooth cylinders with perfectly smooth ends.  Kinda scary.

An other post described it as like a "microwaved Tootsie Roll" --
which captures the texture pretty well.  As for taste, they were
like candy, only not very sweet -- does that make sense? I recall
liking them for their texture, not taste. I guess I have well
developed texture buds.

It was obligatory to eat a few while watching "Captain Scarlet".
Does anybody else remember _that_, as long as we're off the
topic of space?

Shag

-- 

Here is a computation I did a long time ago that computes the length
of the daylight.  You should be able to convert the information here
to sunrise and sunset times.

--
Rouben Rostamian                          Telephone: 410-455-2458
Department of Mathematics and Statistics  e-mail:
University of Maryland Baltimore County   bitnet: rostamian@umbc.bitnet
Baltimore, MD 21228, USA                  internet: rouben@math.umbc.edu
Definitions:

z = the tilt of the axis of the planet away from the normal to its
orbital plane.  In case of the Earth z is about 23.5 degrees, I think.
I do not recall the exact value.  In case of Uranus, z is almost
90 degrees.

u = latitude of the location where the length of the day is measured.
Paris is at about 45 degrees.  North pole is at 90.

a = angular position of the planet around the sun.  As a goes from
0 to 360 degrees, the planet makes a full circle around the sun.
The spring equinox occurs at a=0.

L = daylight fraction = (duration of daylight)/(duration of a full day).
On the equator (u=0) L is always 1/2.  Near the north pole (u=90 degrees)
L is sometimes one and sometimes zero, depending on the time of the year.

Computation:
Define the auxiliary angles p and q by:
sin p = sin a sin z
cos q = h ( tan u tan p ),       (0 < q < 180 degrees)

Conclusion:
L = q / 180   (if q is measured in degrees)
L = q / pi    (if q is measured in radians)

Wait!  But what is h?
The cutoff function h is defined as follows:

h (s) = s    if  |s| < 1
      = 1    if   s > 1
      = -1   if   s < 1

As an interesting exercise, plot L versus a.   The graph will shows
how the length of the daylight varies with the time of the year.
Experiment with various choices of latitudes and tilt angles.
Compare the behavior of the function at locations above and below
the arctic circle.

: Regardless of people's hidden motivations, the stated reasons for many
: wars include religion.  Of course you can always claim that the REAL
: reason was economics, politics, ethnic strife, or whatever.  But the
: fact remains that the justification for many wars has been to conquer
: the heathens.

: If you want to say, for instance, that economics was the chief cause
: of the Crusades, you could certainly make that point.  But someone
: could come along and demonstrate that it was REALLY something else, in
: the same manner you show that it was REALLY not religion.  You could
: in this manner eliminate all possible causes for the Crusades.
:         

Scott,

I don't have to make outrageous claims about religion's affecting and
effecting history, for the purpsoe of a.a, all I have to do point out
that many claims made here are wrong and do nothing to validate
atheism. At no time have I made any statement that religion was the
sole cause of anything, what I have done is point out that those who
do make that kind of claim are mistaken, usually deliberately. 

To credit religion with the awesome power to dominate history is to
misunderstand human nature, the function of religion and of course,
history. I believe that those who distort history in this way know
exaclty what they're doing, and do it only for affect.

TDB> 12. Disease introduced to Brazilian * oher S.Am. tribes: x million

To be fair, this was going to happen eventually.  Given time, the Americans
would have reached Europe on their own and the same thing would have 
happened.  It was just a matter of who got together first.

I am working on a program to display 3d wireframe models with the user
being able to arbitrarily change any of the viewing parameters.  Also,
the wireframe objects are also going to have dynamic attributes so
that they can move around while the user is "exploring" the wireframe
world.

To do this, I am thinking of using the SRGP package described in the
Van Dam, Foley and Feiner book, but I was wondering if there was
another PD graphics package out there which was faster.  I would like
to make the program as fast as possible so that it provides
satisfactory real time performance on a Sun IPX.

Ideally, I'm looking for a PD graphics package which will allow me to
open a new window under X, and allow me to draw lines within the
window.  Also, it would also need to have some sort of event driven
interaction handling since the user is going to move around the
wireframe models using the keyboard.

If you know or wrote such a package, I would be grateful if you could
direct me to a ftp site which contains the package.

Thank you.

  Did the Russian spacecraft(s) on the ill-fated Phobos mission a few
years ago send back any images of the Martian moon?  If so, does anyone know if
they're housed at an ftp site?
  Thanks.
 
Oh gee, a billion dollars!  That'd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
feasability study!  Happy, Happy, JOY! JOY!

I am looking for software to run on my brand new Targa+ 16/32. If anyone knows
of any sites which have useful stuff, or if you have any yourself you want to
give, let me know via mail. Thanks a LOT! Yayayay!
                                     jamie@ddsw1.mcs.com

This is becoming a tiresome statement.  Coming from you it is 
a definition, not an assertion:

   Islam is good.  Belief in Islam is good.  Therefore, being a 
   believer in Islam can produce only good...because Islam is
   good. Blah blah blah.

That's about as circular as it gets, and equally meaningless.  To
say that something produces only good because it is only good that 
it produces is nothing more than an unapplied definition.  And
all you're application is saying that it's true if you really 
believe it's true.  That's silly.

Conversely, you say off-handedly that _anything_ can happen under
atheism.  Again, just an offshoot of believe-it-and-it-becomes-true-
don't-believe-it-and-it-doesn't.  

Like other religions I'm aquainted with, Islam teaches exclusion and
caste, and suggests harsh penalties for _behaviors_ that have no
logical call for punishment (certain limits on speech and sex, for
example).  To me this is not good.  I see much pain and suffering
without any justification, except for the _waving of the hand_ of
some inaccessible god.

By the by, you toss around the word knowledgable a bit carelessly.
For what is a _knowledgeable believer_ except a contradiction of
terms.  I infer that you mean believer in terms of having faith.
And If you need knowledge to believe then faith has nothing
to do with it, does it?

The Vatican library recently made a tour of the US.
 Can anyone help me in finding a FTP site where this collection is 
 available.

Hi there,

I am here looking for some help.

My friend is a interior decor designer. He is from Thailand. He is
trying to find some graphics software on PC. Any suggestion on which
software to buy,where to buy and how much it costs ? He likes the most
sophisticated 
software(the more features it has,the better)

RFD
                          Request For Discussion
                                for the
                          OPEN  TELEMATIC GROUP

                                  OTG

I have proposed the forming of a consortium/task force for the
promotion of NAPLPS/JPEG, FIF to openly discuss ways, method,
procedures,algorythms, applications, implementation, extensions of
NAPLPS/JPEG standards.  These standards should facilitate the creation
of REAL_TIME Online applications that make use of Voice, Video,
Telecommuting, HiRes graphics, Conferencing, Distant Learning, Online
order entry, Fax,in addition these dicussion would assist all to
better understand how SGML, CALS, ODA, MIME, OODBMS, JPEG, MPEG,
FRACTALS, SQL, CDrom, cdromXA, Kodak PhotoCD, TCL, V.FAST, and
EIA/TIA562, can best be incorporated and implemented to develop
TELEMATIC/Multimedia applications.

We want to be able to support DOS, UNIX, MAC, WINDOWS, NT, OS/2
platforms.  It is our hope that individuals, developers, corporations,
Universities, R & D labs would join in in supporting such an endeavor.

This would be a NOT_FOR_PROFIT group with bylaws and charter. Already
many corporations have decided to support OTG (Open TELEMATIC Group) so
do not delay joining if you are a developer

An RFD has been posted to form a usenet newsgroup and a FAQ will soon
be be composed to start promulgating what is known on the subject.  If
you would like to be added to the maillist send email or mail to the
address below.

This group would publish an electronic quarterly NAPLPS/JPEG
newsletter as well as a hardcopy version.  We urge all who wants to
see CMCs HiRes based applications & the NAPLPS/JPEG G R O W, decide to
join and mutually benefit from this NOT-FOR_PROFIT endeavor.

NOTE: Telematic has been defined by Mr. James Martin as the marriage
      of Voice, Video, Hi-res Graphics, Fax, IVR, Music over telephone
      lines/LAN.

If you would like to get involve write to me at:

  IMG Inter-Multimedia Group| Internet:  epimntl@world.std.com
  P.O. Box 95901            |            ed.pimentel@gisatl.fidonet.org
  Atlanta, Georgia, US      | CIS     :  70611,3703
                            | FidoNet :  1:133/407
                            | BBS     :  +1-404-985-1198 zyxel 14.4k

I am interested in finding 3D animation programs for the Mac.
I am especially interested in any programs that don't exist
in a PC port and are so good that they would make me go buy
a Mac.  Do any such exist?

I'm also interested in such a program. But most of all I'd like to know 
wich program is able to convert GIF or PCX to DXF !!! When I have this 
program, I can scan pictures and frase (or something like that !) them.
This will be beyond the limit !!!

Or how about:
    "End light pollution now!!"

Your banner would have no effect on its subject, but my banner would.

: While I'm sure Sagan considers it sacrilegious, that wouldn't be
: because of his doubtfull credibility as an astronomer. Modern, 
: ground-based, visible light astronomy (what these proposed
: orbiting billboards would upset) is already a dying field: The
: opacity and distortions caused by the atmosphere itself have
: driven most of the field to use radio, far infrared or space-based
: telescopes.

Hardly.  The Keck telescope in Hawaii has taken its first pictures; they're
nearly as good as Hubble for a tiny fraction of the cost.

: In any case, a bright point of light passing through
: the field doesn't ruin observations. If that were the case, the
: thousands of existing satellites would have already done so (satelliets
: might not seem so bright to the eyes, but as far as astronomy is concerned,
: they are extremely bright.)

I believe that this orbiting space junk will be FAR brighter still;
more like the full moon.  The moon upsets deep-sky observation all
over the sky (and not just looking at it) because of scattered light.

This is a known problem, but of course two weeks out of every four are
OK.  What happens when this billboard circles every 90 minutes?  What
would be a good time then?

:                                              Frank Crary
:                                              CU Boulder

Not if you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible, excitable
and easily led from some concrete cause.   In that case we would also
have to discuss if that concrete cause, rather than atheism, was the
factor that caused their subsequent behaviour.

Picture our universe floating like a log
in a river.  As the log floats down the
river, it occasionally strikes rocks, the
bank, the bottom, other logs.  When this collission
occurs, kinetic energy is translated into heat, the
log degrades, gets scraped up, and other energy 
translaions occur.  The distribution of damage to
the log depends on the shape of the log.

However, to a very small virus in a mite on the head of a
termite in the center of the log, the shock waves from the
collissions would appear uniformly random in direction.

This is my theory for GRB.  They are evidence of our universe
interacting with other universes!  Why not!  Makes
just as much sense as the GRB coming from the Oort cloud!

The log theory of universes can't be ruled out!

Of course, I'm a layman in the physics world.  You 
physicists out there, Tell me about this !!!!

I've been away for a couple of weeks and have become out of touch with the 
latest information on the Diamond Viper Card.  Does anyone know if Diamond 
has come out with any Vesa Driver updates lately?  Also, I was wondering 
what the latest Windows Driver version is up to now.

				Thanks in advance,
					Dan

I am happy to announce the first public release of the bit program,
   an INTERACTIVE, FULL COLOR image viewer and editor based on SGI GL.
   Besides typical touchup tasks, such as crop, rotate, smooth, etc,
   bit offers some unique features not available in similar programs,
   such as text and vector support and the separation of text and image.

   The following is the relevant sections from the man page. 
   -----------------------------------------------------------------

Pre-Release of May, 1993                                       BIT(1L)

NAME
   bit - Bitmap Image Touchup for SGI Workstations

DESCRIPTION
  bit is an interactive full color image viewer and editor based on
  Silicon Graphics GL. As a full color program, bit handles images of both
  24bits and color index in a natural and efficient manner.

  As an image viewer, bit allows list of images to be displayed in their
  original type (24bits or color index) in any order and in any of the
  many built-in styles of display. You can walk up and down the list using
  mouse and keyboard, or you can let bit do the walk for you (The
  SlideShow).  With the pan and zoom features, large images can be viewed
  in full without being limited by the window or screen size.

  As an image editor, bit performs a large number of image editing and
  processing tasks accurately and efficiently. It keeps information loss
  at any stage of the editing process at an absolute minimum by performing
  subpixel sampling automatically while conserving the input image type
  whenever possible to avoid unnecessary promotion and/or quantization of
  input images. You can also cut a piece of an image and paste it into
  another.  In addition, arbitrarily colored and sized text and simple
  geometric figures can be rendered on top of an image for annotation with
  the option to make them part of the bitmap or output separately to take
  advantage of the higher printer resolutions (e.g. PostScript).

  Bit can also be used as a graphical user interface to many existing
  image processing programs by defining external bindings which in essence
  turn command line oriented programs into bit subfunctions and can be
  accessed by a press of a button, and best of all, the processed image
  will be read back and displayed immediately. Convolution using exter-
  nally defined matrices of arbitrary order can be performed dynamically
  giving great flexibility in processing an image.

FEATURES

  Bit performs all of its image manipulations interactively with a
  continuous progress report, and once the processing is complete, 
  the processed image will be displayed.

  Current features include

  o Rotates an image by an arbitrary angle with the option of anti-aliasing
    and filling the "rotated out" region with an arbitrary color.

  o Scales an image by arbitrary factors in x- and/or y-directions with
    the option of subpixel sampling.

  o Renders text of arbitrary color, size or orientation on top of an
    image with the option of rendering directly into the raster or saving
    the text and raster separately, such as into a PostScript file, to
    take advantage of a higher printer resolution. Besides normal text
    strings, many predefined special symbols can be input conveniently as
    in TeX(1), e.g., $\alpha$\small$\beta$ produces Greek alphabet alpha
    followed by a slightly smaller Greek alphabet beta.

  o Presents graphically the histogram of an image.

  o Performs arbitrary 1-to-1 pixel transformation.  The transformation
    function can be specified interactively and can be of arbitrary
    forms. Further, the transformation can be applied to RGB channels
    separately or simultaneously and to the entire image or a portion of
    it. Many difficult tasks, such as thresholding, can be accomplished
    rather easily by 1-to-1 transformation in combination with the avai-
    lability of graphical histograms of the image.

  o Places simple geometric figures (SGFs), e.g., arrows, circles, trian-
    gles etc., of arbitrary color, size and orientation into an image at
    arbitrary locations addressed either in absolute pixels or in some
    user definable coordinate system units, with the option of rendering
    directly into the raster or save the sgfs and raster separately (e.g,
    PostScript file). All SGFs can be scaled in x- and y-directions
    independently or simultaneously (this is how to get an ellipse from a
    circle).

  o Performs edge detection. In combination with image histograms and 1-
    to-1 transformation, very accurate result can be obtained.

  o Performs histogram equalization.

  o Performs convolution with externally defined (square) matrices of
    arbitrary order.

  o Crops a rectangular portion of an image.

  o Cuts and pastes across images.

  o Magnifies any portion of an image by any amount.

  o Displays a list of images in sequence with a user specifiable pause
    interval between images. (SlideShow)

  o Measures RGB intensities of a pixel at any location or all pixels
    along an arbitrary line with the result presented as RGB intensities
    or as an intensity vs. distance plot.

  o Performs image type conversions.

  o Converts image formats.

  o Smoothes an image (Special convolution).

  o Filters an image by external programs and read the filtered image
    back and display it.

  o Modify an individual pixel's RGB values.

  o Performs FFT on the entire image or a portion of it and display the
    resulting power spectra.

  o Spray and brush paint in full color (unavailable in this pre-release).

 SUPPORTED FORMATS
      o  IRIS RGB, native to SGI IRIS
      o  JPEG(JFIF) format
      o  CompuServ GIF
      o  PNM(Portable Any Map), including PPM, PGM and PBM.
      o  XBM (X Window Bitmap)
      o  TIFF
      o  PostScript(Write only)

Hardware requirements:
   Any SGI workstation that supports RGBmode(), including indigoes.

Where to get it:
   anonymous ftp to monte.svec.uh.edu   /pub/bit/bitxxx.tar.Z
   where xxx is the version number. Current version is 0.73

   Read src/01Readme for installation instructions after unpacking

Acknowledgement:
   JPEG support is based on the Independent JPEG groups's library Version 4.
   FORMS library, developed by Mark Overmars, is used for GUI.
   Both JPEG and FORMS library are included in this release.

  Bit is the program you will ever need to view and annotate
  images; The built-in editing features will satisfy most of
  your editing needs. In addition, the external filter and dynamical
  kernel will utilize any program you already have. So try it
  (and you will like it).

Last-modified: 1993/04/27

Last Change : 27 April 1993

PART1:
------
1. ARCHIE
2. Notes

PART2:
------

PART3:
------
   c. Others
   a. Teapot ?

This file is crossposted to comp.graphics, comp.answers and news.answers,
comp.answers or news.answers

--

--

--

indexing.

--

--

ftp:
  password.

mail:

RFC-822:
X.400:

1. ARCHIE
=========

vol. 27.

2. Notes
========

Computer graphics related FTP sites (and maintainers), 22/04/93

	mapping.

             send index

	*XSHARP*

	material.

	head data

        stop bit).

EUROPE:
-------

#ccu1.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.3.1]:  ftp/mac/architec - *VISION-3D facet
#	for Macs.  Paul Bourke <pdbourke@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz>
+[ For users outside NZ - go to wuarchive.wustl.edu, directory
+  /mirrors/architec ]

BITFTP
------

+RED
+---
+  RED - Listserv Redirector is essentially a mail server.
+  The Server Sites that are available are:
+
+  Location        EARN/BITNET          Internet
+  --------------  ----------------     -------------------
+  In Turkey:      TRICKLE@TREARN       TRICKLE@EGE.EDU.TR
+  In Denmark:     TRICKLE@DKTC11
+  In Italy:       TRICKLE@IMIPOLI
+  In Belgium:     TRICKLE@BANUFS11     TRICKLE@UFSIA.AC.BE
+  In Austria:     TRICKLE@AWIWUW11
+  In Germany:     TRICKLE@DS0RUS1I     TRICKLE@RUSVM1.RUS.UNI-STUTTGART.DE
+  In Israel:      TRICKLE@TAUNIVM      TRICKLE@VM.TAU.AC.IL
+  In Netherlands: TRICKLE@HEARN        TRICKLE@HEARN.NIC.SURFNET.NL
+  In France:      TRICKLE@FRMOP11      TRICKLE@FRMOP11.CNUSC.FR
+  In Colombia:    TRICKLE@UNALCOL      TRICKLE@UNALCOL.UNAL.EDU.CO
+  In Taiwan:      TRICKLE@TWNMOE10     TRICKLE@TWNMOE10.EDU.TW
+
+  You are  urged to use the  one that is closer  to your location.
+  Send a message to one of these containing the body
+
+  /HELP
+
+  and you'll get more instructions.

    HELP
    /DIR

BBSes
-----

--
  
--
--
--
 
--

--

--

--

--

Imagine
-------

Lightwave
---------

Toaster
-------

Real 3D
-------

Rayshade
--------

Radiance
--------

REND386
-------

VISION-3D
---------

BRL
---

  Contact:

IRIT
----
  find it.

SurfModel
---------

NOODLES
-------

XYZ2
----

3DMOD
-----

NORTHCAD
--------

Vertex
------
  (Amiga)

  USA

ICoons
------
  (Amiga)

Sculptura
---------
  Runs under Windows 3.1, and outputs PoV files. A demo can be found
  on wuarchive.wustl.edu in mirrors/win3/demo/demo3d.zip

  Author: Michael Gibson <gibsonm@stein.u.washington.edu>

Alpha_1
-------
 
VERTIGO
-------

  machines:

Contact:
  Suite 1010

PADL-2
------

ACIS
----

  licence.

  Contact:

twixt
-----

VOXBLAST
--------

VoxelBox
--------

  Contact:

NFF
---

OFF
---

TDDD
----

P3D
---

RenderMan
---------

	send index

Indeed so; it's at the extreme limit of what is humanly possible.  It is
possible only because Mount Everest is at a fairly low latitude:  there
is a slight equatorial bulge in the atmosphere -- beyond what is induced
by the Earth's rotation -- thanks to the overall circulation pattern of
the atmosphere (air cools at poles and descends, flowing back to equator
where it is warmed and rises), and this helps just enough to make Everest-
without-oxygen feasible.  Only just feasible, mind you:  the guys who did
it reported hallucinations and other indications of oxygen starvation,
and probably incurred some permanent brain damage.

Earlier today I read an ad for REAL-3D animation & ray-tracing software and
it looked very convincing to me. However, I don't own an Amiga and so I began 
to wonder, if there's a PC version of it.

So, has anyone seen/used REAl-3D for DOS??

I bought a copy of The Satanic Verses when there was talk of the British
Government banning it.  There's nothing interests me in a book more than
making it illegal.

However, it's still sitting on my shelf unread.  Perhaps I'll get round to it
soon.  I've still got a pile of Lem, Bulgakov and Zamyatin to go through; I
don't find nearly enough time to read.  In fact, there are far more
interesting things to do than I can ever find time for; how anyone ever
manages to be bored is beyond me.  If I didn't have to sleep, maybe I could
manage it.

mathew

Sure, a person could have great respect for Jesus and yet be an 
atheist.  (Having great respect for Jesus does not necessarily mean 
that one has to follow the Christian [or Muslim] interpretation of 
his life.) 

Hello:
	can anybody help me to find a program that converts a format named
	"raw" (also known as "img") to the "gif" format or "jpeg" one.
	It's desirable to be for a unix machine than for a PC.

	(
	"Raw" format of a N*N image is a file that contain a tail of 
	N*N characters, each one referencing to the k*N+j pixel of the 
	monocrome image, where k and j lies between 0 and N-1.
	).
		
The AIAA San Gabriel Valley Section is sponsoring the following lecture
on Mars exploration at the Jet Propulsion Lab.  Admission is free and open to
the public.

                           The Next Frontier:
                    The Challenge of Mars Exploration

                      DATE:     May 6, 1993
                      TIME:     6:00PM - 8:30 PM
                      LOCATION: Von Karman Auditorium
                                Jet Propulsion Lab
                                4800 Oak Grove Drive
                                Pasadena, California

     The following five speakers will be featured:

              A Science Fiction Perspective
              Tom McDonaugh
              Science Fiction Writer

               Mars Observer
               Dr. Arden Albee
               Project Scientist, Mars Observer - JPL

               Mars '94
               Dr. Arthur L. Lane
               Instrument Manager, Mars '94 - JPL

               Mars Environmental Survey (MESUR)
               Richard Cook
               Mission Designer - JPL

               Manned Mission to Mars
               Dr. Robert Zubrin
               Senior Engineer, Martin Marietta Astronautics

And most definitely read it in conjunction with Heinlein's _Starship
Trooper_.  The two books are radically different viewpoints of the
same basic premises.  I've even heard tell of English classes built
around this.

-- 

Fine. I'll buy from George. GEORGEEE!!!!

That assumes I can't weasel out a cooperative venture of some sort (cut me a
break on the launcher, I'll cut you in on the proceeds if it works).  Only the
government pays higher-than-list price. 

Unless you're Martin Marietta, since (as I recall) they bought out the GD line
of aerospace products. 

If MM/GD does it as an in-house project, their costs would look much better
than buying at "list price."  Does anyone REALLY know the profit margins built
in to the Titan?  C'mon. Allen is telling us how cheap we can get improved this
or that... 

Oh please.  How much of a profit do you want?  Pulling $100-150 million after
all is said and done wouldn't be too shabby.  Not to mention the other goodies
I'll collect in:

	a)  Movie & TV rights (say $100-150 million conservatively)
	b)  Advertising       ("Look Mommie, they're drinking Coke!")
	c)  Intangibles	      (Name recognization, experience & data 
				acculumated)

If you want lean, fine.  A $500 million prize would be more than adequate for a
prize.

Maybe Wales would be kind enough to define what a company would consider
a decent profit.

If you want R&D done, you'll have to write in R&D clauses.  I suppose you could
make it a SBIR set-aside :)  

[ deleted ]
[ deleted ]

  Your information on this topic is very much out of date.  Quantum Electro-
dynamics (QED - which considers light to be particles) has been experimentally
verified to about 14 decimal digits of precision under ALL tested conditions.
I'm afraid that this case, at least in the physics community, has been decided.
Laymen should consult "QED - The Strange Theory of Light and Matter" by Richard
P. Feynman and for the more technically minded there's "The Feynman Lectures on
Physics" by Feynman, Leighton and Sands (an excellent 3 volumes).  Case closed.

Then Einstein should have had lunch with me at the Tien Fu
on Castro Street yesterday, when they handed me a fortune
cookie that said "He who has imagination but not knowledge
has wings, but no feet".

This discussion on "objective" seems to be falling into solipsism (Eg: the
recent challenge from Frank Dwyer, for someone to prove that he can actually
observe phenomena).  Someones even made the statement that science is
"subjective" and that even atom are "subjective." This is getting a bit silly
and the word "objective" is losing all meaning.  Lets start by remembering the
definition of "objective" which has been already presented:

  objective ADJ. 1. Of or having to do with a material object as 
    distinguished from a mental concept. 2. Having actual existence.
    3.a. Unenfluenced by emotion or personal prejudice. b. Based on
    observable phenomenon.

The Objectivity of a thing is not based on whether everyone agrees on that
thing (eg: the world is objectively round, regardless of the fact that there
exist flat earthers), but rather whether it is based observable and verifiable
phenomenon (instead of being based solely on peoples wishes, feeling, mental
processes, etc).  Thus atoms, being based on very observable and repeatable
phenomenon, are indeed considered to be objective rather than subjective. 
Even weird, high energy physics is based on observable phenomenon (even though
that observation can change the outcome).  Nor are those observable phenomenon
affected by emotion, or personal prejudice (eg: chemical reactions do not
change to the whims of different people).  Thus to say that science is not
objective (ie: objectively verifiable) is a bit silly, as that is the
point of science.  Now I will agree that science is not objectively "good;" I
will not thereby conclude though that science is not objective. 

Now some examples things which are "objective":  A D-12 tractor is larger
than the average breadbox.  Chlorophyll is green.  Seawater contains salt.
There exists ozone in the atmosphere (at least presently).  Ozone blocks 
ultraviolet light.  Ultraviolet light increases the incidents of skin Cancer.

"Good" on the other hand is a value judgement.  It doesn't seem to have an
existence apart from what we give it (unless someone can objectively show the
existence of an omnipotent entity which has defined "good").  We cannot
quantify it, touch it or collect it in any concrete sense (eg: I have a bag
full of "good").  Now we do sometimes attempt to give the word "good" an
objective meaning, e.g.  "good" has been used to denote strength, resiliency,
speed, etc.  That though, is a subjective definition, as some might not see
"strength" and etc, as necessarily "good" (eg: strength inspired by Naziism 
is not generally viewed as "good"). 

As to a morality, I cannot say that I have ever seen a morality strictly based
on verifiable observable phenomenon.  The closest I have seen is some form of
the "Golden Rule," which concludes that it is best not to deliberately piss
people off, as they will likely then involve themselves in your life, in a
manner you won't like.  This is verifiable; when you "get in someone's face,"
they will often retaliate.  Another objective fact about morality is that a
more powerful group can enforce their morality on a weaker group, and thus can
at times, ignore that form of the "Golden Rule" without fear of reprisal.  Now
as to whether this enforcing of morality is "good" or "bad," is quite
subjective.  By the way, remember that subjective does not mean that a thing
cannot be formally stated, or even commonly agreed upon; it only means that
that it is not verifiable from observable phenomena, or has a physical
existence unto itself.  Also note that I have not stated that there is no such
thing as an objective morality, or that I could not accept any such a
morality; I have simply stated that I have seen no evidence of any such
morality. 

One other thing to notice, "objective" is many times used as synonymous with
"true" and/or "absolute," and "subjective" sometimes has the connotation of
"false" and/or "relative." Tain't necessarily so.  For instance, when a
conclusion is based on objective, but insufficient evidence, then it can be
both objective and false.  As to "absolute," it is easy to note that while we
can objectively show that TNT is explosive, but that does not absolutely mean
that all TNT will explode, and thus objective is not necessarily absolute
either.  On the other hand, something subjective can also be either
"absolutist," or "true." For instance, there are some theists who are
specifically "absolutist" in their morality, even though they have only
subjective evidence to back it up.  Further, many a scientist and detective
has been motivated by subjective reasons (eg: a "gut feeling" or "hunch"), to
investigate a phenomena or situation, and gather the objective evidence
necessary to support a true hypothesis.  On the whole though, I would have to
agree that objective evidence is much more trustworthy than subjective
evidence.
 
				Later,

Ok, so you have proven you saw the right stuff.  However, as I said above,
it takes politics and PR to keep the bucks coming.
"No politics, no bucks, no buck rogers."
 
Yes this may be true in the case of the SCIENCE data coming from the spacecraft
and other stuff about the operations.  However, there is still stuff regarding
regular operation that belongs to the company and they have ever legal right
to keeping it theirs.  But this does not mean that everything can or
should be swept under the umbrella of company proprietory data.
 
You can do the same here...you just have to wait a year.
 
Safeguard internal company data are indeed supported by US law.  

-*----

No.  It follows from the fact that most Christians' choice of
interpretation stems from a mix of beliefs that are influenced by
the secular ethics of their culture and that are not fully
determined by scripture.  Whether or not there is some "right"
interpretation matters not; few Christians claim the ability to
read the mind of their god.  Dave Davis should note that it was
Michael who first stated the importance of secular and cultural
influence in this thread.  I think Michael is right in this, but
regardless, it should be noted that this has *not* been a point
of contention between Michael and myself. 

I have argued -- beyond Michael's claims -- that the Christian
scriptures are open to so many interpretations -- including a
wide divergence within the Christian tradition -- that even their
most important themes are vague.  Again, it does not matter that
there is some "right" interpretation *unless* there is a way to
determine what that "right" interpretation is.  It is the lack of
an objective measure, not the presumed lack of an answer, that
puts the force behind the line I argue.

There are enough Christian glasses, varying over a sufficiently
broad range of color, that I can find a few that support my
example. 

In my opinion, what makes Michael radical is that he fully
acknowledges that Christian scripture and tradition fail to
determine the doctrines that so many branches within Christianity
hold dear.  He is willing to live and practice his religion
within this indeterminacy, and he is willing to acknowledge that
much of his understanding of things Christian is influenced by
ideas that are not purely Christian.  Those Christians I have
called conservative must also interpret, but they do not
recognize -- or at least, are unwilling to admit -- the extent and
importance of this.

I recognize that Michael is part of the tradition.  But what does
it tell one about a tradition covering Origen, Aquinas, Jerry
Fallwell, and Jesse Jackson that it also includes Michael Siemon?
Not very much!

I think the conclusion does follow.  The purely Christian
principles that Michael has are the ones he shares with others in
the Christian tradition or that can be derived from Christian
scripture.  These, necessarily vague, are not enough to drive his
political stances.  That one should love one's neighbor is a 
purely Christian principle.  That this means showing tolerance 
for homosexuality is *not*.

As to these political stances, they are often at odds with what
is commonly held in most of current Christendom, and so I 
suspect they could be better pressed outside it.  (On the other
hand, I can well understand the counterpoint, that these 
political stances become most influential when presented to 
those who need them most.)

-*----

Having barely survived the effort to finish in computer science, I
doubt I will attempt a more difficult field any time soon!

Hello,

the subject line says it all: I'm looking for a TGA file viewer for the ATI
Ultra + card. It should support the true color modes, of course.

If someone knows where to find one via FTP, please let me know.

thanx

In an attempt to do animation with POV I have created two little
programs. One is a C program that will perform a "morph" between
any two points given the amount of frames for the morph. And then
it will write the points, and the function (translate, rotate, etc.) out
to a file. Then I have a Perl script that will read the list of functions
and insert them into a .pov file at a given line. I had hoped this would
let me do simple animation. However, I have discovered that simply
performing incremental rotations on an object will not spin a stationary
object but will actually rotate the object about the axis. Now I know
an easy way around this would be to first translate the object to the
origin perform the rotation and then move it back but I know there 
must be another way around this. I had thought perhaps it was because
I had created objects at the origin and then translated them to a new
point and then done the rotation, which could cause this behavior. However
this occurs on objects that are not translated at all. Any help is 

isaackuo@skippy.berkeley.edu (Isaac Kuo) states in reply to deleted
article about no-knock searches, arrests

In general no-knock raids are to preserve evidence, like drugs,
which can be flushed down the toilet.  They are not the standard way
to arrest a violent felon like a bank robber.  If there is no need to
search or preserve evidence they will just surround the dwelling and
order the suspect to come out with her hands up.  If the suspect does
not come out tear gas will be used.

comment on the BD omitted

It is not a method to apprehend criminals.

It is a very dangerous method to obtain evidence that might be
destroyed if a warrant is served in the normal way.  It is the most
dangerous way to arrest anyone.  The cops are charging into a room
and they don't know what is in it.  It is much safer to surround the
place and announce yourself.

Cops are not cops _until_ they identify themselves as police officers.

Most drug dealers and professional criminals are aware of the
likelihood of arrest but they also know how the system works.  If they
are arrested they call their lawyer, post bail and hope for a plea
bargain.  If they pull a gun and shoot a cop during a raid they will
be charged with first degree murder if they survive the raid.  Drug
dealers have guns for protection from their customers and other
criminals, not to shoot cops.  Cops are shot on no-knock drug raids
because the criminals aren't aware that they are cops.

No-knock raids on homes occupied by non-criminals are more likely to
end in disaster.  Mom and Pop citizen _KNOW_ that they have not
committed any crime, they KNOW that anyone breaking into their house
cannot be a cop because they have done nothing wrong.  If they have
the means to defend themselves they may because they KNOW that the
housebreakers are criminals not cops.  Cops and homeowners may die.

The first reports from Waco stated that the ATF had a warrant to
search for illegal weapons and also an arrest warrant if the illegal
weapons were found.  In this case the no-knock warrant was not called
for.  It is difficult to flush a gun down the toilet.  The ATF could
have surrounded the compound.  A marked police car could have driven
up to the entrance and uniformed officers could have knocked and
served the warrant usual way.  It this had happened and and Koresh
refused the warrant or drove the cops off at gun point then most of
the t.p.g folks would have kept quiet.

)Many high-end graphics cards come with C source code for doing basic graphics
)sorts of things (change colors, draw points/lines/polygons/fills, etc.).  Does
)such a library exist for generic VGA graphics cards/chips, hopefully in the
)public domain?  This would be for the purpose of compiling under a non-DOS
)operating system running on a standard PC.

Check the server code for X11R5.  (or "XFree86")

  Right on Keith, err, Kent.  

  Whadda you mean, you didn't see the smiley?

I do not know if I am hitting the right news groups or not, any help in
the right direction is more than welcome.  I need help finding a company
that will take photographic images scanned in and modified by Adobe Photoshop
and turn them into thermal prints or negatives.  I am looking for a place
as close to North Carolina as possible.  The images will be created on
a Macintosh Quadra 800 running Adobe Photoshop and will then be stored in
whatever format the vendor requires, perhaps 88M cartridges?

    The images will be black and white photographs scanned in with a 1200 dpi
scanner then modified/corrected by Adobe Photoshop.  If anyone could help me
or even give me phone numbers to people who could I would be very grateful.

    Also if anyone else is doing what I am planning I would be happy to hear
from you with any advice you might provide as to the computer system you
use and/or any peripherals or software.  It seemed the Quadra 800 would be
my best bet to modify photographic images.  I am planning on buying a Quadra
800 with 32Megs of RAM, a 510Meg Hard Drive, a 1200 dpi scanner, 17" Sony 
monitor and a 88Meg cartridge drive and perhaps a CD ROM.  I am new to
computers and any advice would be great.

   Uh oh, Michael; you typed "hell" and capitalized it to boot! Now
Peter Nyikos will explain that you're not a real Christian!

BZZT! Sorry Michael--the Nyikos Inquisition pointed out that I was
hell-bound after one mildly scurrilous pun on "revealing oneself."
Admitting to masturbation--well, I'm just shocked!

#In article <1r0fpv$p11@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>
# 
#(Deletion)
#>#      Point: Morals are, in essence, personal opinions. Usually
#>#(ideally) well-founded, motivated such, but nonetheless personal. The
#>#fact that a real large lot of people agree on some moral question,
#>#sometimes even for the same reason, does not make morals objective; it
#>#makes humans somewhat alike in their opinions on that moral question,
#>#which can be good for the evolution of a social species.
#>
#>And if a "real large lot" (nice phrase) of people agree that there is a
#>football on a desk, I'm supposed to see a logical difference between the two?
#>Perhaps you can explain the difference to me, since you seem to see it
#>so clearly.
#>
#(rest deleted)
# 
#That's a fallacy, and it is not the first time it is pointed out.

It's not a fallacy - note the IF.   IF a supermajority of disinterested people 
agree on a fundamantal value (we're not doing ethics YET Benedikt), then what 
is the difference between that and those people agreeing on a trivial
observation?

#For one, you have never given a set of morals people agree upon. Unlike
#a football. Further, you conveniently ignore here that there are
#many who would not agree on tghe morality of something. The analogy
#does not hold.

I have, however, given an example of a VALUE people agree on, and explained
why.  People will agree that their freedom is valuable.  I have also
stated that such a value is a necessary condition for doing objective
ethics - the IF assertion above.  And that is what I'm talking about, there
isn't a point in talking about ethics if this can't be agreed.

#One can expect sufficiently many people to agree on its being a football,
#while YOU have to give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees
#with a set of morals YOU have to give.

I'm not doing morals (ethics) if we can't get past values.  As I say,
the only cogent objection to my 'freedom' example is that maybe people
aren't talking about the same thing when they answer that it is valuable.
Maybe not, and I want to think about this some, especially the implications
of its being true.

#Further, the above is evidence, not proof. Proof would evolve out of testing
#your theory of absolute morals against competing theories.

Garbage.  That's not proof either.

#The above is one of the arguments you reiterate while you never answer
#the objections. Evidence that you are a preacher.

Name that fallacy.

I saw an imaging program some time ago on an Amiga that had
Cross, Sobel and Roberts filters for edge detection. 

Can anybody direct me to these algorithms.

Paul Denize

Paul Denize                                Internet: PDenize@Waikato.ac.nz
Department of Computer Science
University of Waikato                         phone: ++64 7 8562-889
Hamilton                                                          Ext 8743
NEW ZEALAND                                   fax  : ++64 7 8560-135

.. 

These seem hardly like the groups to discuss this in, but HUH??? 
All legitimate power to enforce these rights derives from the consent 
of the governed, not from no steenkin' piece of paper.  Civilized gov'mnt 
is not an autonomous computer program, it's interactive.  The Constitution 
was made by the people and can be trashed by us - it ain't no sacred 
scripture from which rights flow.  Our 'rights' come from our souls. 
And I sure didn't see any request to vote on trashing the sky.  
Again - my opinion only - we keep our rights by using them, not going to 
some court.  

You said everyone in the world.  That means *everyone* in the world, including
children that are not old enough to speak, let alone tell lies.  If Jesus
says "everyone", you cannot support that by referring to a group of people
somewhat smaller than "everyone".
--

This image is copyrighted. Early in another news group it was being
used as a texture map in a planet orbiting simulation. That program
was being freely distributed but the texture map picture for the 
earth had to be pulled because of copyright infringement issues. 

mp....

Yeah, but these were not the wives.  The wives came from Nod, apparently
a land being developed by another set of gods.

It sure did!

I have; and all the above teach me that accurately perceiving reality 
is a tricky business -- _not_ that there's no reality.

--

Hmm...are you a Taoist?  Imposing limits *does* do something useful...it gives
you something to go beyond.

I tend to be a bit critical of any stratification of Taoism.  I especially
tend to frown on any suggestion that "orthodoxy" or "classics" have any
special place in Tao.

So rather than debate what "Taoism *REALLY* means" you are suggesting that
we take someone else's word for it and work thusly?  I'd rather not, thank
you.

Whereas you, of course, have a clear idea of what the word means?  Can
you tell the Tao? :-)

Wonderful idea.

Only if you choose to define failure in that way.  Or to define it at all.

Does anyone have a reference (something I can look up, not just your own
recollections -- I have a few of those myself) on the temperature of the
(night) sky as seen from space?

Note, I am *not* talking about the temperature of the Microwave Background
Radiation.  There are more things in the sky than just the MBR; what I'm
after is total blackbody temperature -- what a thermal radiator would see,
disregarding (or shielding against) the Sun and nearby large warm objects.
My dim recollection is that the net effective temperature is substantially
higher than that of the MBR, once you figure in things like stars and the
zodiacal light, but I'd like numbers.

(Peter > > Simple logic arguments are folly.  If you read the Bible you
will see

I can't. It seems Jesus used logic to make people using logic
look like fools? No, that does not sound right, he maybe just
told they were fools, and that's it, and people believed that...
Hmm, does not sound reasonable either...

I find it always very intriguing to see people stating that
transcendental values can't be explained, and then in the
next sentence they try to explain these unexplained values.
Highly strange.

Cheers,
Kent

PEXLIB and PHIGS (as it comes from MIT with PEX and as is explained in the
PHIGS Programming Manual) are just different API's for the PEX protocol,
which is an extension to the X protocol.

So it depends on You, what you go to use.

Advantage of Phigs is the protability to other platforms (IBM GraPhigs, 
SunPhigs) and the standardized structuring of the 3D objects.

Advantage of PEXlib is the sometimes faster and easier programming for
immediate mode graphics, because PEX is not an exactly mapping of Phigs
to a Prortocol.

-- 
       \|/
      (o o)
 -oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------------------
  \\    Roland Holzapfel       Computer     email:                   //
   \\   Wilhelminenstrasse 7   Graphics       holzapfe@igd.fhg.de   //
   //   6100 Darmstadt          Center      phone:                  \\
  //    Germany                 (ZGDV)        ++49 6151 155150       \\
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  >>             This space intentionally left blank                 <<

I recall a discussion I had heard years ago. It went something like this: 
The problem with omnipotence (at least as I perceive it) as personified by 
the christian God ideal is that it is potentially contradictory.  If a 
manifestation such as God is truly infinite in power can God place limits 
upon itself?
.
.
Some stuff I can't recall.
Then some other questions I think I recall correctly:
Can God unmake itself?
Can God make itself (assuming it doesn't yet exist)?
Has God has always existed or is it necessary for an observer to bind all of
Gods potential quantum states into reality?
Was God nothing more than a primordial force of nature that existed during
the earliest stages of universal (inflationary?) creation?
Is God a vacuum fluctuation?
Given a great enough energy density could we re-create God?
Would that make US God and God something else?
.
.
Some more stuff I don't recall concerning creating God.  Followed by:
Is God self-aware?
Is it necessary that God be self-aware?
Is God a living entity?
Is it necessay that God be a living entity?
Is God unchanging or does it evolve?
.
.
Any comments? Post them so that others might benefit from the open inquiry
and resulting discussion.

You hadn't made that clear; I'm glad to have it clarified! So you're
a (physical) objectivist, after all, right?

Wavicle! Next question? ;-)
--

I have a little question:

I need to convert RGB-coded (Red-Green-Blue) colors into HVS-coded
(Hue-Value-Saturnation) colors. Does anyone know which formulas to
use?

Thanks!

I don't know the answer the to this one, although with 8-bits I would assume
that it was one or the other.

According to the literature, it will do quadruple buffering so that you
can have double buffered stereo output.

(st) Stephen Tice 
(km) Ken McVay

(st)Seems to me Koresh is yet another messenger that got killed
(st)for the message he carried. (Which says nothing about the 

(km)Seems to be, barring evidence to the contrary, that Koresh was simply
(km)another deranged fanatic who thought it neccessary to take a whole bunch of
(km)folks with him, children and all, to satisfy his delusional mania. Jim
(km)Jones, circa 1993.

I think there's plenty of evidence to the contrary - six "rescued"
Davidians consistantly recounted that the Federal tank knocked over a barrel
of propane. These guys haven't exactly been spending time together,
plotting an elaborate and consistent story. It would be contradictory
for Koresh to go for "mass suicide" - remember that Koresh's death was
the opening of the sixth seal - the signal that Armageddon had begun.
His army (the people in the compound) would then fight the powers of
evil and win, ending in the Rapture. The fire wiped out his army. I
read earlier that Koresh was planning to walk out of the compound 
and blow himself up with a grenade - that would jibe better with
his teachings.

(st)In the mean time, we sure learned a lot about evil and corruption.
(st)Are you surprised things have gotten that rotten?

(km)Nope - fruitcakes like Koresh have been demonstrating such evil corruption
(km)for centuries.

I'd think you'd be the last one to support gassing people and 
burning them to death for their religious beliefs. Corrupt? Evil?
I don't know. We'll never know. And when you start calling people 
fruitcakes about their religious beliefs, that's dehumanizing people.
We saw what happened when many Germans started believing that Jews
were subhuman.

In one neat stroke, they destroyed all the evidence that could have 
pointed to wrongdoing. And killed all the witnesses, including 12
children whose last view of life was choking and pain, followed by
burning them alive.

I am extremely saddened that this tragedy occurred. I'm furious that
they used my money to do it. 

Well 48 bit colour *could* be for improved resolution but 16 bits per channel
seems like a bit excessive. I have seen a paper that quoted 10 bits per channel
of 12 bits for computational precision. More than that would seem to be wasted.

Perhaps the frame buffer uses another colourspace which needs more bits to
represent the full range - RGB is a cube so it is a compact encoding.

Most likely however is that there are two separate 24 bit (8 bits per component)
frame buffers. This set up, called double buffering, allows a complex 3d picture
to be built up on one buffer while the other buffer (containing the previous
frame) is displayed. This makes for smoother animation.

Well hey if you want to brag about numbers, the 5000 range can take a PXG Turbo+
card with 96 bits per pixel. Full double buffering (Two 24 bit buffers), a 24
bit Z buffer and an extra 24 bit buffer for off screen image storage.

Mind you the card costs more than your workstation.

--
Chris Lilley
Technical Author, ITTI Computer Graphics and Visualisation Training Project
Computer Graphics Unit, Manchester Computing Centre, Oxford Road, 
Manchester, UK.  M13 9PL                        Internet: C.C.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk 
Voice: +44 (0)61 275 6045  Fax: +44 (0)61 275 6040 Janet: C.C.Lilley@uk.ac.mcc

The "R Us" thing is trademarked.  I don't know if Charles
Lazarus is dead or alive, but I'd be careful, because with
a name like Lazarus, he might rise again just to start a
lawsuit.

Dean Kaflowitz

"I'm afraid I'm going to have to kill you.  Don't worry, though; as a Loving
Christian, I guarantee that I will regret the fact that I have to kill
you, although I won't regret the actual killing."

False dichotomy.

That's because they weren't even attempted.

You want to know why it bothers me that thousands of innocent people were
maimed or killed by bombing at the end of WW2, when it was far from clear
that such bombing was necessary?

And why-is-it-that-way?  Who set things up to be that way?

No, just the ones that have oil.  Or the ones that look like they might make
a success of Communism.

I don't see that getting UN forces to East Timor is any harder than getting
them to Iraq.

Fine.  Write to your Congressman and to President Clinton.  China's status as
"Most Favoured Nation" comes up for renewal in June.  Point out that the US
shouldn't be offering favourable trading terms to such a despicable regime.

I doubt anything will happen.  Clinton's keener on trade sanctions against
Europe.

[ Unbelievable comments about the Rodney King case deleted ]

Any idea how many kill files you just ended up in?

The ends justify the means, eh?

The same tired old misunderstanding.  Moral relativism means that there is no
*objective* standard of morality.  It doesn't mean you can't judge other
people's morals.  Christ on a bike, how many times have we tried to hammer
that into your head?

Obviously not, as I am an atheist.  I don't think you'd get on with Jesus,
though; he was a long-haired lunatic peace-nik, was he not?

Right.  Unfortunately for you, it turned out that my opinions on the matter
were entirely consistent in that I condemned the bombing of Dresden too.

I think you're being a bit glib with your explanation of the blanket bombing
policy, too.  You make it sound as though we were aiming for military targets
and could only get them by destroying civilian buildings next door.  As I
understand it, that is not the case; we aimed deliberately at civilian
targets in order to cause massive damage and inspire terror amongst the
German people.

Oh, come on.  With wars like the Falklands fresh in people's minds, that sort
of propaganda isn't going to fool anyone.

Yes?  And what about the millions of casualties the Russians suffered?  It's
hardly surprising the US didn't lose many men in WW2, given that you turned
up late.

Habital planets are also dependent on what kind of plant life can be grown..
and such.. Length of growing season (that is if you want something more than
VAT food, argh, Id ratehr eat an MRE for  along period of time).

I know in Fairbanks (Furbanks to some) the winter can get to -60 or so F, but
in the summer can get to +90 and such.. I know of worse places..
       
Incans and Sherpa and other low pressure atmosphere and such are a limit in
human adaptability(someone mentioend that Incan woman must come to lower
elevations to have babies brought to term? true?) I remember a book by
Pourrnelle I think that delt with a planet was lower density air..

I wonder what the limit on the other end of atmospheres?

I am limiting to human needs and stresses and not alien possibilties..
Thou aliens might be more adapted to a totally alien to human environment, such
as the upper atmosphere of Jupiter or??

Almost makes bio-engineered life easy...

This is one of those "yes, but" things. It's true that a hydraulically
pressurized tube can be somewhat more rigid than an unpressurized tube,
but even at 2000 PSI levels a hydraulic hose will bend rather easily,
though it's straight-on compressive strength is high, and it's torsional 
resistance increase is practically nil. On the other grasping member, 
there's no doubt that hydraulic "leverage" exists in nature. Tree roots 
are an example. Given time they can shatter concrete as osmotic pressure
increases.

Kangaroos 3-limbed? I don't think so. If you take the view that the
tail is a limb, then monkeys and kangaroos are 5-limbed. I think the
tail is a different kind of structure, grossly enlarged in the case
of the kangaroo, but primarily still an instrument of balance rather
than locomotion. I don't know much about panda "thumbs", so I'll ask
is it opposable?

Well I won't say flat out that they can't be intelligent, but I'll
bring a couple of lines of argument to bear to try to show why I
don't think it's likely. First let me say that when I say "intelligent"
I mean complex behaviors in response to novel situations on a level
with, or greater than, human tool use and tool building. IE assuming
suitable manipulators are present on the creature to allow it to alter 
it's enviroment in a planned way, it will do so. That's certainly not
a universal or complete definition of intelligence, but it will suffice
for a putative technological alien.

Now no one knows exactly what makes a brain capable of thought, but
it's generally accepted that one of the criteria is a certain level
of complexity. This is generally determined by the number of neuron
cells, and their interconnections. So a creature the size of a lemur
wouldn't have enough neurons to support complex thought. This argument
is considerably less clear in the case of the dinosaur. There's room
for a large brain, though no indication that one ever developed. One
reason this may be true is neuronic speed. The electrochemical messages 
that trigger neurons require time to propagate. This makes it difficult
for a highly complex central brain to coordinate the movements of very
large creatures. So there's little selection pressure for such brains.
Instead, a simpler distributed network evolves. This doesn't rule out
intelligent dinosaurs, but it points in that direction.

Then there are the thermodynamic arguments. A tiny creature like the
lemur needs to eat frequently because it's internal heat is rapidly
lost due to it's high surface to volume ratio. I contend that a creature
that must spend most of it's time and energy feeding won't have the time
to develop and exercise intelligence. That argument may be somewhat weak.
The dinosaur's problem is the reverse, it must moderate it's heat production 
because it's high volume to surface ratio makes it tend to retain waste heat. 
I'm assuming that a certain temperature range is optimal for chemical
reactivity reasons for productive neuron function. So creatures would
tend to need to maintain a regulated temperature in a range near that
of humans if they are carbon based. That tends to rule out cold blooded
creatures as potential homes of intelligence. Some people contend that
some of the dinosaurs may have been warm blooded. But for a creature
the size of a brontosaur, it's activity levels would have to be restrained
or it would be prone to generate an internal steam explosion from the
waste heat. Whales are similar size, but they can reject heat to the
ocean, a much more efficient sink than air. I suspect that for intelligence
to manifest itself, a certain degree of activity in interacting with the
environment is necessary. IE monkey curiousity. I doubt a large dinosaur
would be capable of that much activity.

Gary

	What's sort of interesting about this whole thread is just how much
it has in common with similar threads in groups dealing with other vendor's
hardware.  I currently deal basically with hardware from 3 vendors - Apple,
DEC, and SGI - and thus tend to monitor the groups about those vendor's
hardware.  Currently, it seems like SGI customers are pissed at SGI about
dropping support for the Personal Iris, DEC customers are pissed at DEC for
dropping MIPS support in favor of the new Alpha boxes, and Apple customers
seem to get pissed every time a new Mac is introduced that's faster and
cheaper than the one they just bought.  When I used to be a Sun customer
years ago, I remember people being pissed at Sun for leaving their 386
and 680x0 customers out in the cold when Sparc came along.

	What's really interesting is that from what I can tell, the MIS
folks in the basement with their ES/9000 don't seem to be pissed at IBM.
Why?  I have no idea.  Either IBM really does take care of their customers
better, or they just have their customers brainwashed better than the
smaller vendors do.

   Dandridge Cole and Isaac Asimov collaborated on a book titled,
"Habitable Planets for Man" (I think) in 1964.  It should be available
in most good libraries, or through inter-library loan.

   It answered the questions you ask (speculatively, of course), along
with many more that need to be considered in habitability studies:
length of day (for day/night temperature variation, and agricultural
concerns), partial pressures of certain unexpected gasses (ever hear of
xenon narcosis?  neither did I), density of particulates in the atm, and
their composition (ever hear of silicosis?  not much fun), etc.

   Climate isn't a global phenomenon and probably needn't concern you,
but axial tilt ought to.  It plays a large part in determining the
severity of seasonal differences, and a lesser but still significant
part in determining the speed of prevailing winds.

element analysis, radiosity, distributed processing

Hi,

	I'm looking for references to parallel algorithms on:

		octrees
		adaptive subdivision
		adaptive meshing
		finite element meshing/analysis
		radiosity

	Any help will be greatly appreciated.  E-mail replies to

	As Herny pointed out, you have to develop the thruster.
Also, while much lighter, you still have to lift the mass of
the thruster to orbit, and then the thruster lifts its own 
weight into a higher orbit.  And you take up room in the payload
bay.

John E. King (king@ctron.com) posts a whopping one liner:

 * "The modern theory of evolution is so inadequate that it deserves to be *
 *  treated as a matter of faith." -- Francis Hitching                     *

  I have a few points to make about the above posting.

    1. Science is not based on and does not consist of "quotes" from either
    real or alleged experts.  Critical reasoning, evidence and (if possible)
    experimentation are necessary.  Creationists frequently display a massive
    confusion about this by merely quoting both non-experts and experts alike
    (some of the latter quotes are in fact false) and steadfastly refusing to
    follow any kind of rigorous scientific procedure.  This strongly suggests
    that (a.) their claims completely lack any scientific merit and (b.) they
    are aware of this fatal deficiency.  Of course, you may not actually be a
    creationist and this may not be your real intent.

    2. You have failed to identify Hitching and the surrounding context of his
    statement.  Why is that?  If Hitching is a scientific illiterate then the
    quote would merely display his profound ignorance of evolutionary biology.
    Creationists are frequently known to quote real scientists out of context
    and to fabricate statements that they subsequently attribute to legitimate
    scientists.  Of course, you may not actually be a creationist and this may
    not be your real intent.

    3. Evidence supporting the alleged inadequacies of "the modern theory of
    evolution" would be a much more powerful argument than a contextless one
    line quote from an unidentified nobody.  It is also important to note that
    disproving biological evolution does not automatically prove some alternate
    claims any more that disproving that the earth is shaped like a hockey puck
    proves that it is a hyperbolic paraboloid.  Creationists seem rather fond
    of diving (head first) into this logical fallacy.  Of course, you may not
    actually be a creationist and this may not be your real intent.

    4. Since evolution is central to virtually all of modern science, an attack
    on evolution (either the fact or the theory) really represents an attack on
    science.  While the theory will unquestionably continue to evolve (B^) the
    fact of evolution will not ever go away.  Creationists lost the battle long
    ago (more than 100 years in fact) but are simply too willfully ignorant and
    irrational to acknowledge the fact.  Of course, you may not actually be a
    creationist and you may not really be that ignorant.

Warren Kurt vonRoeschlaub (kv07@IASTATE.EDU) asks:

 * Neither I, nor Webster's has ever heard of Francis Hitchings.  Who is he? *

  I, like Hitchings, am not to be found in Webster's B^).  Francis Hitchings
is a scientifically illiterate creationist (or perhaps he is just playing the
part of one) who wrote a quite ignorant book attacking evolution ("The Neck of
the Giraffe").  In that publication he quotes a creationist (Jean Sloat Morton)
using the standard invalid creationist probability argument that proteins could
not have formed by chance.  Thus not only confusing abiogenesis with evolution
(the two are quite independent) but also concluding with a "non sequitur" (i.e.
the conclusion "does not follow"). [pp 70-71]  Hitchings also misquotes Richard
Lewontin in an effort to support creationism. [pp 84]

  Hitchings book was reviewed by National Park Service ecologist David Graber
in the Los Angeles Times (and repeated in the Oregonian).  The article was
titled "`Giraffe' sticks scientific neck out too far".  Excerpts include :

  "Francis Hitchings is not a biologist."  "He goes after Darwin like Mark
  Antony after Brutus.  He flips from scientific reasoning to mysticism and
  pseudo-science with the sinuosity of a snake-oil salesman."  "He suggests
  a mystical `organizing principle' of life, using the similarity of organs
  in different creatures as evidence [sic]."

  Note that the last statement above is actually evidence FOR evolution not
against it.  If John E. King is quoting from this reviewed book it wouldn't
surprise me much.  It's also interesting that King had nothing to add (i.e.
he only posted a quote).

Cool, then we can discuss the increase in radio and TV use, 
the increase in the use of fossil fuels, the increase in air 
travel, and consumption of processed bread, and you can
instruct us on which of them causes increased depression.

Another article that fell between the cracks:

 As evidence for the Resurrection, it is often claimed that the Disciples
were tortured to death for their beliefs and still did not renounce
their claim that Jesus had come back from the dead.
 Now, I skimmed Acts and such, and I found a reference to this happening
to Stephen, but no others. Where does this apparently very widely held
belief come from? Is there any evidence outside the Bible? Is there any
evidence *in* the Bible? I sure haven't found any...

Briefly, no.  There is widespread folklore, but no good documentary
evidence, or even solid rumor, concerning the deaths of the Apostles.
Further, the usual context of such arguments, as you observe, is "No
Martyrs for a Lie": i.e. the willingness of these people to die rather
than recant is evidence for the truth of their belief.  This adds the
quite stronger twist that the proposed martyrs must have been offered
the chance of life by recanting.  Since we don't even know how or
where they died, we certainly don't have this information.  (By the
way, even in the case of Stephen it is not at all clear that he could
have saved himself by recanting).  The willingness of true believers
to die for their belief, be it in Jesus or Jim Jones, is
well-documented, so martyrdom in and of itself says little.  [See
1Kings18:20-40 for a Biblical account of the martyrdom of 450 priests
of Baal].

Or perhaps even weird?

Hmmm, you might want to read this group more carefully; there's been a good 
amount of discussion of the proposed Pluto Fast Flyby (PFF) mission that is 
specifically designed to be small and cheap.

I just wanted to point out, that Teflon wasn't from the space program.
It was from the WWII nuclear weapons development program.  Pipes in the 
system for fractioning and enriching uranium had to be lined with it.

Uranium Hexafloride was the chemical they turned the pitchblend into for
enrichment.  It is massively corrosive.  Even to Stainless steels. Hence
the need for a very inert substaance to line the pipes with.  Teflon has
all its molecular sockets bound up already, so it is very unreactive.

My 2 sense worth.

If you are a user of Autodesk 3D Concepts, and are willing to answer
a small number of short questions, then please send me Email.

Last night CNN reported that FBI has infrared pictures showing
that the fires started in three places at the same time. That 
would indicate something not resembling an accident.

Cheers,
Kent

Blessed are those
	who hunger and thirst
	for righteousness,
	for they will be filled.

: THe limit on space-walking is a function of suit supplies (MASS)
: and Orbiter Duration.   

: In order to perform the re-boost of the HST, the OMS engines
: will be fired for a long period.  Now the shuttle is a heavy
: thing.  THe HST isn't light either.  THe amount of OMS fuel
: needed to fly both up is substantial.   a small booster
: carried up and used to boost HST on it's own will weigh significantly
: less then the OMS fuel required to Boost  both HST and SHUttle,
: for a given orbital change.  

: From what i understand,  the mass margins on the HST missions are
: tight enough they can't even carry extra Suits or MMU's.

: pat

I haven't seen any specifics on the HST repair mission, but I can't see why
the mass margins are tight.  What are they carrying up?  Replacement components
(WFPC II, COSTAR, gyros, solar panels, and probably a few others), all sorts of
tools, EVA equipment, and as much OMS fuel and consumables as they can.  This
should be lighter than the original HST deployment mission, which achieved the
highest altitude for a shuttle mission to date.  And HST is now in a lower 
orbit.  

Seems like the limiting factors would be crew fatigue and mission complexity.

Hi. Can anyone please give me some ftp sites to get IPAS processes for
3D Studio 2.0?
Thanks.
+Warren =8^)

Maddi: >>

No, no, no!  I've already been named by "Killfile" Keith.
My nickname is Maddi "Never a Useful Post" Hausmann, and
don't you DARE forget it, "Half".

You really should quote Ivan Karamazov instead(on a.a), as he was
the atheist.

-- 

[to Benedikt Roseneau ]

#In article <1qv6at$fb4@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>
# 
#>#The information of that is invariant under your child being a son or
#>#a daughter and singing about Santa Claus. Wasn't your argument that
#>#"there has to be more"?
#>More than what?
#More than we assume.

Which is what, exactly?

#>(a) Most of the people I debate disagree with my premises.  Hardly debate
#>    otherwise.
# 
#Your favorite point that we sense so it hs to be there has been challenged
#more than once. When I did it, you said, "good question", and did not
#address it.

I've addressed "it" (your caricature is not my "favourite point", needless
to say) at length in a previous outing, and am currently discussing it with 
Eric Rescorla.  

#>(b) There's little point in responding the same points everywhere; I do
#>    my best to give everyone the courtesy of a reply.
# 
#You still repeat that point.

I do? Curious, since I believe that was the first time I've ever made it.
Not that repetition would imply much more than your seeming inability
to understand; you ask me the same question, I'll give you the same
answer, especially when in this case, I know the answer to be true.  I
do my best to give everyone the courtesy of a reply, but if everyone is
making the same points, and I'm pushed for time, then I try to respond what I 
believe are the strongest formulations of those points.  If that doesn't
include your post, tough; this is USENET, and life is tough all over.

#>(c) Since there's a great deal of responses this isn't always feasible;  I
#>    do my best to honestly answer questions put to me.
# 
#You drop out of debates with some posters and continue with others. You appear
#with the same issue every n months, and start the dicussion at the beginning
#again.

I've only debated this issue twice in a.a, and occasionally in t.a.  The
first was in response to Simon Clippingdale's positive assertion that
disagreement about moral values inexorably acknowledges that morals
are relative.  It doesn't.   Now, Simon has dropped out of the debate
for some time; I take that to mean that he is either busy, or bored
with the topic.  I certainly do not accuse him of dishonesty.  Do you? 

#>(d) I can't always understand what you say
# 
#Neither can't I understand you all the time. Usually, one asks what the other
#side means.

Usually, one does.  Usually you're clear, but sometimes you aren't 
and I ask you what you mean; other times you seem to get extremely uptight 
and I feel that I'm debating against line noise.  Sometimes I get tired, and 
sometimes I have other things I'd rather do.  Again, this is USENET, and
life is tough all over.  You're going to have to deal with it.

#>(e) You're starting to get personally insulting; I may not even put your name
#>    in the hat in future.
#
#That's supposed to be a threat?

No, that's a simple statement, and an assertion that I am not answerable
to those who offer me baseless insults.  For example, those who accuse me 
of lying about my personal beliefs, while also complaining that I don't answer
their questions.  

#>#Like that you what you sense is evidence for the sensed to be there.
#>#If only everything would be so easy.
#>
#>What almost everyone senses is evidence for the sensed to be there.
#>Because to all intents and purposes, it *is* there.
#> #We had that argument. For one, your claim that everyone senses it
#is not founded, and you have been asked to give evidence for it often.
#And then, the correct statement would be it is reason to assume that it
#is there unless evidence against it has been found.

I have no problem with the second statement.  I have provided an
argument that almost everyone senses that Freedom is valuable - the
only cogent objection to this came from jon livesey, and was offered
by some other people too: essentially, that people disagree about
fuzzy concepts such as Freedom.  It's a good point, and I'm thinking
about it.
# 
#Your trick is to say, I feel A is not right, and so do many I know,
#therefore A is absolutely right. It neglects the possibility that
#these people consider A to be right as an effect of the same process,
#restricting the claim of its absoluteness to those who have been subject
#of that process. In other words, refutes it. You make the ontological
#claim, you have to prove it.

Nonsense.  My "trick" is to say:  I feel that A is better than B and so 
does almost any disinterested person I ask.  Best evidence is therefore 
that A really is better than B, subject to the assumption that we
can establish to our mutual satisfaction what we mean by A and B, and
that the resulting system of values is self-consistent.

Now get this:  "really is better" is an idealisation, a fictional model,
in the same sense that "real material existence" is a fictional model. It
may or may not correspond to something true.  It is nonetheless a useful
_assumption_.  Far more useful than the equally assumed relativist 
"trick", to wit:

I feel that A is better than B, and so does almost any disinterested person
I ask.  However, if even one person disagrees that A is better than B,
or if even one person dissents from mutually agreed definitions of A and B,
then it is the case that B is better than A for that person, and nothing
more can be said.  

I say this is useless because it inexorably implies that a supermajority
seeking to maximise A cannot morally take action against someone seeking to
maximise B (e.g. a terrorist).  To do that would be to claim that 
a supermajority's carefully considered morality would be better than the 
terrorist's - which would, of course, be true, but a no-no for an ethical
relativist.  To claim that ethical relativism implies anything else is
simply weasel words, and an example of compartmentalisation to rival
anything in the world of religion.

#>#For a similar argument, I sense morality is subjective, it does not
#>#hurt me to do things that are considered to be objectively wrong by
#>#others.
#>
#>If you mean that you do things that some others consider objectively
#>wrong, and it turns out not to be the case for you - of course this
#>is possible.  It is neither evidence for subjectivism, nor evidence
#>against objectivism (except sometimes, in a pragmatic sense).
#>
#It serves as a counterexample for that everything that is subject to
#judgements is absolute. And as long as you don't provide evidence for
#that there is something universally agreed upon there is no reason to
#believe your hypothesis.

I've done this: freedom, with the proviso that I still have to 
answer jon's objection that fuzzy concepts like freedom have no
objective meaning.

#Further, in order to make morality absolute, universal, or objective,
#you would have to show that it is independent of humans, or the attributes
#above look quite misleading.

Not really.  What evidence is there that _anything_ exists independently
of humans?  You'll be hard pressed to find any that isn't logically
equivalent when applied to values.

#>An analogous set of premises would be:
#>
#>Premise 1:  Some people believe that objectively speaking the shortest
#>            route  from my house to a bar is through the main entrance
#>            of the estate, and down the Malahide road.
#>
#>Premise 2:  I checked it out, and found that the shortest route from my
#>            which is much closer.
#>
#>You would never deduce from these that there is no shortest route from my
#>house to a bar; yet that is seemingly how you derive your relativist claim,
#>using premises which are logically no different.
#>
# 
#No. Morals are a matter of belief so far. The people still believe that the
#shortest way is through the main entrance. No agreement on *belief* here.
#And in order to have an analogy you would have to show that there is a
#shortest way and that there is a method to convince everyone of that it
#is the shortest way indeed. In other words,  your analogy works only when
#one assumes that your  premises are right in the first place. If not, it is
#a fallacy.

And if this were an argument for objectivism, you'd be right.  It isn't,
though, it's a demonstration that the argument you gave me is neither argument
*against* objectivism, nor argument *for* relativism.  Your gimmick is to
assume in the first place that values aren't real, and to use this to "prove"
that values aren't real.  In other words, you beg the question against me.

No.  Do this.

Have the DC-X1, make an unscheduled landing at teh 50 yard
line during the halftime show of This years Superbowl.

ABC  will have more reporters there  for that,  then at
any news event.

Greetings all,
   Does anyone use some form of 3D input device?  I would like to hear any
information on any systems that people are currently using...

Please email responses. I will summarise if I get some feedback.

THE ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF
                  THE ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY OF THE ATLANTIC

                       Volume 4, Number 9 - April 1993

                         ###########################

                              TABLE OF CONTENTS

          * ASA Membership and Article Submission Information

          * The Soviets and Venus, Part 3 - Larry Klaes

                         ASA MEMBERSHIP INFORMATION

        The Electronic Journal of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
    (EJASA) is published monthly by the Astronomical Society of the
    Atlantic, Incorporated.  The ASA is a non-profit organization dedicated
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        ASA membership application is open to all with an interest in
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        ASA Officers and Council -

        President - Eric Greene
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        Secretary - Ingrid Siegert-Tanghe
        Treasurer - Mike Burkhead
        Directors - Becky Long, Tano Scigliano, Bob Vickers
        Council - Bill Bagnuolo, Michele Bagnuolo, Don Barry, Bill Black, 
                  Mike Burkhead, Jeff Elledge, Frank Guyton, Larry Klaes, 
                  Ken Poshedly, Jim Rouse, Tano Scigliano, John Stauter, 
                  Wess Stuckey, Harry Taylor, Gary Thompson, Cindy Weaver, 
                  Bob Vickers

                             ARTICLE SUBMISSIONS

        Article submissions to the EJASA on astronomy and space exploration
    are most welcome.  Please send your on-line articles in ASCII format to
    Larry Klaes, EJASA Editor, at the following net addresses or the above
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        klaes@verga.enet.dec.com
        or - ...!decwrl!verga.enet.dec.com!klaes
        or - klaes%verga.dec@decwrl.enet.dec.com
        or - klaes%verga.enet.dec.com@uunet.uu.net

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        When sending your article submissions, please be certain to include
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        Back issues of the EJASA are also available from the ASA anonymous 
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                                DISCLAIMER

        Submissions are welcome for consideration.  Articles submitted,
    unless otherwise stated, become the property of the Astronomical
    Society of the Atlantic, Incorporated.  Though the articles will not
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                             THE SOVIETS AND VENUS
                                     PART 3

                       Copyright (c) 1993 by Larry Klaes

	The author gives permission to any group or individual wishing
	to distribute this article, so long as proper credit is given,
        the author is notified, and the article is reproduced in its 
        entirety.

        To the North Pole!

        On June 2 and 7, 1983, two of the Soviet Union's mighty PROTON 
    rockets lifted off from the Tyuratam Space Center in the Kazakhstan 
    Republic.  Aboard those boosters were a new breed of VENERA probe 
    for the planet Venus. 

        Designated VENERA 15 and 16, the probes were meant not for landing
    yet more spherical craft on the Venerean surface but to radar map the
    planet in detail from orbit.  To accomplish this task, the basic
    VENERA design was modified in numerous areas.  The central bus core
    was made one meter (39.37 inches) longer to carry the two tons of
    propellant required for braking into orbit, double the fuel carried by
    the VENERA 9 and 10 orbiters eight years earlier.  Extra solar panels
    were added on to give the vehicles more power for handling the large
    amounts of data which would be created by the radar imaging.  The
    dish-shaped communications antennae were also made one meter larger 
    to properly transmit this information to Earth. 

        Atop the buses, where landers were usually placed, were installed
    the 1.4 by 6-meter (4.62 by 19.8-foot), 300-kilogram (660-pound)
    POLYUS V side-looking radar antennae.  The radar system, possibly a
    terrain-imaging version of the nuclear-powered satellites used by 
    the Soviets for Earth ocean surveillance, would be able to map Venus'
    surface at a resolution of one to two kilometers (0.62 to 1.2 miles). 

        The Soviet probes' imaging parameters were a vast improvement over
    the United States PIONEER VENUS Orbiter, which could reveal objects 
    no smaller than 75 kilometers (45 miles) in diameter.  And while the
    VENERAs' resolution was comparable to that of similar observations 
    made by the 300-meter (1,000-foot) Arecibo radio telescope on the 
    island of Puerto Rico, the orbiters would be examining the northern
    pole of Venus.  This region was unobtainable by either Arecibo or 
    PIONEER VENUS and appeared to contain a number of potentially 
    interesting geological features worthy of investigation.

        On October 10, 1983, after an interplanetary journey of 330 
    million kilometers (198 million miles) and two mid-course corrections, 
    VENERA 15 fired its braking rockets over Venus to place itself in a 
    polar orbit 1,000 by 65,000 kilometers (600 by 39,000 miles) around 
    the planet, completing one revolution every twenty-four hours.  VENERA 
    16 followed suit four days later.  The twin probes thus became Venus' 
    first polar-circling spacecraft.

        Radar operations began on October 16 for VENERA 15 and October 20 
    for VENERA 16.  For up to sixteen minutes every orbit over the north
    pole, the probes would make a radar sweep of the surface 150 kilometers 
    (ninety miles) wide and nine thousand kilometers (5,400 miles) long.  
    The craft would then head out to the highest part of their orbits over 
    the south pole to recharge their batteries and transmit the data back 
    to two large Soviet antennae on Earth.  Each strip of information took 
    eight hours to process by computer.  By the end of their main missions 
    in July of 1984, the VENERAs had mapped 115 million square kilometers 
    (46 million square miles), thirty percent of the entire planet.

        VENERA 15 and 16 revealed that Venus has a surface geology more
    complex than shown by PIONEER VENUS in the late 1970s.  Numerous hills, 
    mountains, ridges, valleys, and plains spread across the landscape, 
    many of them apparently formed by lava from erupting volcanoes in the 
    last one billion years.  In planetary terms this makes the Venerean 
    surface rather young.  Hundreds of craters were detected as well, the 
    largest of which had to have been created by meteorites (planetoids 
    would be a better term here) at least fourteen kilometers (8.4 miles) 
    across, due to Venus' very dense atmosphere.

        There were some disagreements between U.S. and Soviet scientists
    on the origins of certain surface features.  For example, the probes' 
    owners declared that the 96-kilometer (57.6-mile) wide crater at the 
    summit of 10,800-meter (35,640-foot) high Maxwell Montes, the tallest 
    mountain on the planet, was the result of a meteorite impact.  American 
    scientists, on the other hand, felt the crater was proof that Maxwell 
    was a huge volcano sitting on the northern "continent" of Ishtar Terra.  

        In any event, the U.S. decided to wait on making verdicts about
    Venus until the arrival of their own radar probe, scheduled for later
    in the decade.  Originally named the Venus Orbiting Imaging Radar
    (VOIR), its initial design was scaled back and the craft was redesig-
    nated the Venus Radar Mapper (VRM).  Eventually the machine would be 
    called MAGELLAN, after the Portuguese navigator Ferdinand Magellan 
    (circa 1480-1521).  This vehicle would map the entire planet in even 
    finer detail than the VENERAs.  For the time, however, the Soviet 
    probes maintained that distinction.

        Radar imaging was not the only ability of the VENERAs.  Bolted
    next to the POLYUS V radar antenna were the Omega altimeter and the 
    Fourier infrared spectrometer, the latter for measuring the world's
    temperatures.  The majority of the areas covered registered about
    five hundred degrees Celsius (932 degrees Fahrenheit), but a few
    locations were two hundred degrees hotter, possibly indicating 
    current volcanic activity.  The probes also found that the clouds 
    over the poles were five to eight kilometers (three to 4.8 miles) 
    lower than at the equator.  In contrast, the polar air above sixty 
    kilometers (thirty-six miles) altitude was five to twenty degrees 
    warmer than the equatorial atmosphere at similar heights.

        When the main mapping mission ended in July of 1984, there were 
    plans for at least one of the VENERAs to radar image the surface at 
    more southernly latitudes.  Unfortunately this idea did not come to 
    pass, as the orbiters may not have possessed enough attitude-control
    gas to perform the operation.  

        VENERA 15 and 16 ceased transmission in March of 1985, leaving 
    the Soviet Institute of Radiotechnology and Electronics with six 
    hundred kilometers (360 miles) of radar data tape to sort into an 
    atlas of twenty-seven maps of the northern hemisphere of Venus.

        Venus by Balloon

        For years the thick atmosphere of Venus had been a tempting 
    target to scientists who wished to explore the planet's mantle of 
    air with balloon-borne instruments.  Professor Jacques Blamont of 
    the French space agency Centre National d'Etudes Spatiales (CNES)
    had proposed such an idea as far back as 1967, only to have a joint 
    French-Soviet balloon mission canceled in 1982.  Nevertheless, 
    late in the year 1984, such dreams would eventually come true.

        When two PROTON rockets were sent skyward on December 15 and 21, 
    the Soviet Union provided Western observers with the first clear, full 
    views of the booster which had been launching every Soviet Venus probe 
    since 1975.  This was but one of many firsts for the complex mission.

        The unmanned probes launched into space that December were named
    VEGA 1 and 2, a contraction of the words VENERA and GALLEI - Gallei
    being the Russian word for Halley.  Not only did the spacecraft 
    have more than one mission to perform, they also had more than one 
    celestial objective to explore, namely the comet Halley.  

        This famous periodic traveler was making its latest return to 
    the inner regions of the solar system since its last visit in 1910.
    Since it was widely believed that comets are the icy remains from
    the formation of the solar system five billion years ago, scientists 
    around the world gave high priority to exploring one of the few such 
    bodies which actually come close to Earth.  

        Most comets linger in the cold and dark outer fringes of the solar 
    system.  Some, like Halley, are perturbed by various forces and fall 
    in towards the Sun, where they circle for millennia spewing out ice 
    and debris for millions of kilometers from the warmth of each solar 
    encounter.

        The Soviet Union, along with the European Space Agency (ESA) and
    Japan's Institute of Space and Astronautical Science (ISAS), did not
    wish to miss out on this first opportunity in human history to make a
    close examination of Halley.  The ESA would be using the cylindrical
    GIOTTO probe to make a dangerously close photographic flyby of the 
    comet, while Japan's first deep space craft - SAKIGAKE (Pioneer) and 
    SUISEI (Comet) - would view Halley from a much safer distance. 

        Scientists in the United States also desired to study the comet
    from the vantage of a space probe, at one time envisioning a vessel
    powered by solar sails or ion engines.  However, government budget
    cuts to NASA canceled the American efforts.  The U.S. would have to
    make do primarily with Earth-based observations and the sharing of 
    data from other nations, though an instrument named the Dust Counter 
    and Mass Analyzer (DUCMA), designed by Chicago University Professor 
    John Simpson, was added on the Soviet mission in May of 1984.

        The Soviets' answer to Halley were the VEGAs.  Instead of building
    an entirely new craft for the mission, the Soviets decided to modify
    their VENERA bus design to encounter the comet while performing an 
    advanced Venus mission along the way.  As VEGA 1 and 2 reached Venus,
    the buses would drop off one lander/balloon each and use the mass of 
    the shrouded planet to swing them towards comet Halley, much as the 
    U.S. probe MARINER 10 used Venus to flyby Mercury eleven years earlier. 
    The Soviet craft would then head on to Halley, helping to pinpoint the 
    location of the comet's erupting nucleus for the GIOTTO probe to dive 
    in only 605 kilometers (363 miles) away in March of 1986.

        As planned, the two VEGAs arrived at Venus in June of 1985.  VEGA
    1 released its payload first on the ninth day of the month, the lander
    making a two-day descent towards the planet.  The craft touched the
    upper atmosphere on the morning of June 11.  Sixty-one kilometers
    (36.6 miles) above the Venerean surface a small container was released
    by the lander, which produced a parachute at 55 kilometers (33 miles)
    altitude.  Thus the first balloon probe ever to explore Venus had
    successfully arrived. 

        One kilometer after the opening of the parachute, helium gas was
    pumped into the Teflon-coated plastic balloon, inflating it to a
    diameter of 3.54 meters (11.68 feet).  Dangling on a tether thirteen
    meters (42.9 feet) below was the instrument package, properly known as
    an aerostat.  The top part of the 6.9-kilogram (15.18-pound) aerostat
    consisted of a cone which served as an antenna and tether attachment
    point to the balloon.  Beneath it was the transmitter, electronics,
    and instruments.  Connected at the bottom was a nephelometer for
    measuring cloud particles.  The aerostat was painted with a special
    white finish to keep at bay the corroding mist of sulfuric acid which
    permeated the planet's atmosphere. 

        The VEGA 1 balloon was dropped into the night side of Venus just
    north of the equator.  Scientists were concerned that the gas bag 
    would burst in the heat of daylight, so they placed it in the darkened 
    hemisphere to give the craft as much time as possible to return data.  
    This action necessitated that the landers come down in the dark as 
    well, effectively removing the camera systems used on previous missions.  
    The author wonders, though, if they could have used floodlights similar 
    to the ones attached to VENERA 9 and 10 in 1975, when Soviet scientists 
    had thought the planet's surface was enshrouded in a perpetual twilight 
    due to the permanently thick cloud cover.

        The first balloon transmitted for 46.5 hours right into the day
    hemisphere before its lithium batteries failed, covering 11,600
    kilometers (6,960 miles).  The threat of bursting in the day heat did
    not materialize.  The VEGA 1 balloon was stationed at a 54-kilometer
    (32.4-mile) altitude after dropping ballast at fifty kilometers
    (thirty miles), for this was considered the most active of the three
    main cloud layers reported by PIONEER VENUS in 1978.  Indeed the
    balloon was pushed across the planet at speeds up to 250 kilometers
    (150 miles) per hour.  Strong vertical winds bobbed the craft up and
    down two to three hundred meters (660 to 990 feet) through most of the
    journey.  The layer's air temperature averaged forty degrees Celsius
    (104 degrees Fahrenheit) and pressure was a mere 0.5 Earth atmosphere.
    The nephelometer could find no clear regions in the surrounding clouds. 

        Early in the first balloon's flight, the VEGA 1 lander was already
    headed towards the Venerean surface.  Both landers were equipped with
    a soil drill and analyzer similar to the ones carried on VENERA 13 
    and 14 in 1982.  However, VEGA 1 would become unable to report the
    composition of the ground at its landing site in Rusalka Planitia, the
    Mermaid Plain north of Aphrodite Terra.  While still ten to fifteen
    minutes away from landing, a timer malfunction caused the drill to 
    accidentally begin its programmed activity sixteen kilometers (9.6 
    miles) above the surface. 

        There was neither any way to shut off the instrument before
    touchdown nor reactivate it after landing.  This was unfortunate not
    only for the general loss of data but also for the fact that most of
    Venus was covered with such smooth low-level lava plains and had never 
    before been directly examined.  Nevertheless, the surface temperature 
    and pressure was calculated at 468 degrees Celsius (874.4 degrees 
    Fahrenheit) and 95 Earth atmospheres respectively during the lander's 
    56 minutes of ground transmissions.  A large amount of background 
    infrared radiation was also recorded at the site.

        As had been done when the drills and cameras on VENERA 11 and 
    12 had failed in December of 1978, the Soviets focused on the data
    returned during the lander's plunge through the atmosphere.  The
    French-Soviet Malachite mass spectrometer detected sulfur, chlorine, 
    and possibly phosphorus.  It is the sulfur - possibly from active 
    volcanoes - which gives the Venerean clouds their yellowish color.
    The Sigma 3 gas chromatograph found that every cubic meter of air
    between an altitude of 48 and 63 kilometers (28.8 and 37.8 miles)
    contained one milligram (0.015 grain) of sulfuric acid.

        The VEGA 1 data on the overall structure of the cloud decks 
    appeared to be at odds with the information from PIONEER VENUS.
    The case was made even stronger by the fact that VEGA 2's results
    nearly matched its twin.  The VEGAs found only two main cloud layers 
    instead of the three reported by the U.S. probes.  The layers were 
    three to five kilometers (1.8 to 3 miles) thick at altitudes of 50 
    and 58 kilometers (30 and 34.8 miles).  The clouds persisted like a
    thin fog until clearing at an altitude of 35 kilometers (21 miles), 
    much lower than the PV readings.  One possibility for the discrepan-
    cies may have been radical structural changes in the Venerean air 
    over the last seven years.

        When the lander and balloon finally went silent, the last 
    functioning part of the VEGA 1 mission, the flyby bus, sailed on
    for a 708 million-kilometer (424.8 million-mile) journey around
    the Sun to become the first probe to meet comet Halley.  On March
    6, 1986, the bus made a 8,890-kilometer (5,334-mile) pass at the 
    dark and icy visitor before traveling on in interplanetary space.
    The Soviets had accomplished their first mission to two celestial
    bodies with one space vessel.

        On June 13, VEGA 2 released its lander/balloon payload for
    a two-day fall towards Venus.  Like its duplicate, the VEGA 2
    balloon radioed information back to the twenty antennae tracking
    it on Earth for 46.5 hours before battery failure on the morning
    side of the planet.  During its 11,100-kilometer (6,660-mile)
    flight over Venus, the second balloon entered in a rather still
    environment which became less so twenty hours into the mission.
    After 33 hours mission time the air became even more turbulent 
    for a further eight hours.  When the balloon passed over a five-
    kilometer (three-mile) mountain on the "continent" of Aphrodite 
    Terra, a powerful downdraft pulled the craft 2.5 kilometers (1.5 
    miles) towards the surface.

        Temperature sensors on the VEGA 2 balloon reported that the air 
    layer it was moving through was consistently 6.5 degrees Celsius 
    (43.7 degrees Fahrenheit) cooler than the area explored by the VEGA 1
    balloon.  This was corroborated by the VEGA 2 lander as it passed 
    through the balloon's level.  No positive indications of lightning
    were made by either balloon, and the second aerostat's nephelometer 
    failed to function.

        The VEGA 2 lander touched down on the northern edge of Aphrodite
    Terra's western arm on the fifteenth of June, 1,500 kilometers (900
    miles) southeast of VEGA 1.  The lander's resting place was smoother
    than thought, indicating either a very ancient and worn surface or a
    relatively young one covered in fresh lava.  The soil drill was in
    working order and reported a rock type known as anorthosite-troctolite, 
    rare on Earth but present in Luna's highlands.  This rock is rich in 
    aluminum and silicon but lacking in iron and magnesium.  A high degree 
    of sulfur was also present in the soil.  The air around VEGA 2 measured 
    463 degrees Celsius (865.4 degrees Fahrenheit) and 91 Earth atmospheres,
    essentially a typical day (or night) on Venus.

        Far above the VEGA 2 lander, its carrier bus sped past Venus at
    a distance of 24,500 kilometers (14,700 miles) and followed its twin 
    to comet Halley, making a closer flyby on March 9, 1986 at just 8,030 
    kilometers (4,818 miles).  Both probes helped to reveal that the comet 
    is a very dark and irregular-shaped mass about fourteen kilometers 
    (8.4 miles) across, rotating once every 53 hours, give or take three 
    hours.

        Since both VEGA craft were still functioning after their Halley
    encounters, Soviet scientists considered an option to send the 
    probes to other celestial objects.  One prime target was the near-
    Earth planetoid 2101 Adonis, which VEGA 2 could pass at a distance 
    of six million kilometers (3.6 million miles).  Sadly, the Soviets 
    had to back out on the opportunity to become the first nation to fly 
    a spacecraft past a planetoid when it was discovered that there was 
    not enough maneuvering fuel in the probe to reach Adonis as planned.  
    VEGA 1 and 2 were quietly shut down in early 1987.

        Future Plans Diverted

        The impressive VEGA mission had given some scientists numerous 
    ideas and hope for even more ambitious expeditions to the second 
    world from the Sun.  One example was the VESTA mission, planned for
    the early 1990s.

        This Soviet-French collaboration called for the launch of multiple 
    probes on a single PROTON rocket in either 1991 or 1992.  The craft 
    would first swing by Venus and drop off several landers and balloon 
    probes.  The aerostats would be designed to survive in the planet's 
    corrosive atmosphere for up to one month, a large improvement over 
    the VEGA balloons' two days.  The mission would then head out to 
    investigate several planetoids and comets, including a possible 
    landing on Vesta (thus the mission name), the most reflective Main 
    Belt planetoid as seen from Earth.

        Unfortunately for Venus exploration, plans began to change in
    the Soviet Union.  In 1986 the Soviets decided to reroute the VESTA
    mission to the red planet Mars instead of Venus, keeping the comet
    and planetoid aspects intact.  By this time in the Soviet space 
    program interest was focusing on Mars.  Already under construction 
    was an entirely new probe design called PHOBOS.  Two members of this 
    class were planned to leave Earth in 1988 and orbit Mars the next 
    year.  PHOBOS 1 and 2 would then place the first instruments on
    Mars' largest moon, Phobos. 

        All this was a prelude to even more advanced Mars expeditions,
    including balloon probes, rovers, soil sample return craft, and 
    eventually human explorers in the early Twenty-First Century.
    The environment of Venus was just too hostile for any serious
    consideration of human colonization in the near future.

        But things began to look bleak for Soviet Venus and Mars
    exploration.  Both PHOBOS probes failed to complete their missions,
    one losing contact on the way to the Red Planet in 1988 and the other
    going silent in Mars orbit just one week before the planned moon
    landing in March of 1989. 

        In 1989 a plan was devised for a Venus orbiter to drop eight to
    ten penetrators around the planet in 1998.  Several years later the
    mission launch date was moved to the year 2005 and has now been put 
    on indefinite hold.  No other official Soviet missions to Venus have
    since been put forth, a sad commentary after twenty-five years of
    continuous robotic exploration of the planet. 

        During the late 1980s a drastic political and economic change
    was taking over the Soviet Union.  President Mikhail Gorbachev began 
    to "open up" his nation to the benefits of increased cooperation with 
    the rest of the nations, particularly those in the West.  While the 
    culture became less oppressive than in the past, the economy was taking 
    a very rough ride as it also underwent the effects of a "free market".

        These effects hit everywhere, including the space program.
    Missions at all levels were cut back.  The Soviets began making
    almost desperate attempts to cooperate with other space-faring
    nations either to keep their remaining programs alive or just to 
    make money.  

        In early 1992 it was reported that the Soviets were offering for 
    sale several fully-equipped VENERAs they had in storage for the price 
    of 1.6 million dollars each, an incredibly low price for any planetary 
    probe.  No nation took them up on the bargain.  Meanwhile the United 
    States was gearing up for new Venus missions of their own.

        MAGELLAN and GALILEO 

        The U.S. reactivated their long-dormant planetary exploration
    with the launch of the Space Shuttle ATLANTIS on May 4, 1989.
    Aboard the Shuttle was the MAGELLAN spacecraft, a combination of
    spare parts from other U.S. probes designed to make the most 
    detailed and complete radar-mapping of Venus in history.  When
    MAGELLAN reached the second world in August of 1990, it would be
    able to map almost the entire planet down to a resolution of 108
    meters (360 feet), surpassing the abilities of VENERA 15 and 16.

        In the interim another American probe was launched from a Space 
    Shuttle which would make a quick flyby of Venus on its way to orbit 
    the giant planet Jupiter in 1995.  On October 18, 1989, the Shuttle 
    ATLANTIS released its second unmanned planetary probe into space, 
    named GALILEO after the famous Italian astronomer who discovered the 
    probe's primary target's major moons in 1610.

        In the absence of a powerful enough booster to send GALILEO on
    a direct flight to the Jovian planet, the probe was sent around
    Venus and Earth several times to build up enough speed to reach
    Jupiter.  As a result, Venus became GALILEO's first planetary
    goal in February of 1990.  The probe radioed back images of the
    planet's swirling clouds and further indications of lightning in
    that violent atmosphere.

        On the Drawing Boards

        With the incredible success of MAGELLAN in the last few years,
    new plans have been laid out for further journeys to Venus.  Scien-
    tists in the U.S. have talked to space scientists in the former Soviet 
    Union - now the Commonwealth of Independent States since January 1, 
    1992 - of a cooperative effort to launch new VENERA lander missions 
    within in the next decade.  Japan, India, and the ESA have also
    considered their own Venus missions in the next few decades.

        In February of 1993 NASA came up with several new Venus projects 
    as part of their Discovery Program for launching inexpensive probes
    throughout the solar system.  For Venus two missions were selected
    for further study:  A Venus Multiprobe Mission involving the landing
    of fourteen small probes over one hemisphere to measure winds, air
    temperature, and pressure; and the Venus Composition Probe, designed
    to study Venus' atmosphere while descending through the thick air
    with the aid of a parachute, much as the Soviets had done since 1967.
    Final project decisions will be made in 1994.

        Humans on Venus      

        Will a human ever be able to stand on the surface of Venus?
    At present the lead-melting temperatures and crushing air pressure
    would be threatening to any Earth life not protected in something
    even tougher than a VENERA lander.  Plans have been looked into
    changing the environment of Venus itself into something more like
    Earth's.  However, it should be noted that any such undertaking
    will require the removal of much of the thick carbon dioxide 
    atmosphere, a major reduction in surface heat, and the ability 
    to speed up the planet's rotation rate to something a bit faster
    than once every 243 Earth days.  Such a project may take centuries
    if not millennia.

        In the meantime efforts should be made to better understand
    Venus as its exists today.  We still have yet to fully know how
    a world so seemingly similar to Earth in many important ways became
    instead such a deadly place.  Will Earth ever suffer this fate?
    Perhaps Venus holds the answers.  Such answers may best be found
    through international cooperation, including the nation which 
    made the first attempts to lift the cloudy veils from Venus.

        Bibliography -

         Barsukov, V. L., Senior Editor, VENUS GEOLOGY, GEOCHEMISTRY, AND 
           GEOPHYSICS: RESEARCH RESULTS FROM THE U.S.S.R., University of
           Arizona Press, Tucson, 1992

         Beatty, J. Kelly, and Andrew Chaikin, Editors, THE NEW SOLAR 
           SYSTEM, Cambridge University Press and Sky Publishing Corp.,
           Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1990

         Burgess, Eric, VENUS: AN ERRANT TWIN, Columbia University Press, 
           New York, 1985

         Burrows, William E., EXPLORING SPACE: VOYAGES IN THE SOLAR
           SYSTEM AND BEYOND, Random House, Inc., New York, 1990

         Chaisson, Eric, and Steve McMillan, ASTRONOMY TODAY, Prentice-
           Hall, Inc., Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey, 1993

         Gatland, Kenneth, THE ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SPACE TECHNOLOGY, 
           Salamander Books, New York, 1989

         Greeley, Ronald, PLANETARY LANDSCAPES, Allen and Unwin, Inc.,
           Winchester, Massachusetts, 1987

         Hart, Douglas, THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SOVIET SPACECRAFT, Exeter 
           Books, New York, 1987

         Hartmann, William K., MOONS AND PLANETS (Third Edition), Wadsworth
           Publishing Company, Belmont, California, 1993

         Harvey, Brian, RACE INTO SPACE: THE SOVIET SPACE PROGRAMME, 
           Ellis Howood Limited, Chichester, England, 1988

         Henbest, Nigel, THE PLANETS: PORTRAITS OF NEW WORLDS, Viking
           Penguin Books Ltd., Harmondsworth, Middlesex, England, 1992

         Johnson, Nicholas L., SOVIET SPACE PROGRAMS 1980-1985, Volume
           66 Science and Technology Series, American Astronautical 
           Society, Univelt, Inc., San Diego, California, 1987

         Johnson, Nicholas L., THE SOVIET YEAR IN SPACE 1989/1990, 
           Teledyne Brown Engineering, Colorado Springs, Colorado,
           1990/1991

         Lang, Kenneth R., and Charles A. Whitney, WANDERERS IN SPACE:
           EXPLORATION AND DISCOVERY IN THE SOLAR SYSTEM, Cambridge 
           University Press, New York, 1991

         MAGELLAN: THE UNVEILING OF VENUS, JPL 400-345, March 1989

         Murray, Bruce, Michael C. Malin, and Ronald Greeley, EARTHLIKE
           PLANETS: SURFACES OF MERCURY, VENUS, EARTH, MOON, MARS, W. H.
           Freeman and Company, San Francisco, California, 1981

         Murray, Bruce, JOURNEY INTO SPACE: THE FIRST THREE DECADES OF
           SPACE EXPLORATION, W. W. Norton and Company, New York, 1989

         Newcott, William, "Venus Revealed", NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, 
           Volume 183, Number 2, Washington, D.C., February 1993

         Nicks, Oran W., FAR TRAVELERS: THE EXPLORING MACHINES, NASA 
           SP-480, Washington, D.C., 1985

         Oberg, James Edward, NEW EARTHS: RESTRUCTURING EARTH AND OTHER
           PLANETS, A Meridian Book, New American Library, Inc., New
           York, 1983

         Robertson, Donald F., "Venus - A Prime Soviet Objective" (Parts 
           1/2), SPACEFLIGHT, Volume 34, Numbers 5/6, British Interplanetary
           Society (BIS), London, England, May/June 1992

         Smith, Arthur, PLANETARY EXPLORATION: THIRTY YEARS OF UNMANNED
           SPACE PROBES, Patrick Stephens, Ltd., Wellingborough, Northamp-
           tonshire, England, 1988

         VOYAGE THROUGH THE UNIVERSE: THE NEAR PLANETS, By the Editors
           of Time-Life Books, Inc., Alexandria, Virginia, 1990

         Wilson, Andrew, JANE'S SOLAR SYSTEM LOG, Jane's Publishing, Inc.,
           New York, 1987

        About the Author -

        Larry Klaes, EJASA Editor, is the recipient of the ASA's 1990 
    Meritorious Service Award for his work as Editor of the EJASA since 
    its founding in August of 1989.  Larry also teaches a course on
    Basic Astronomy at the Concord-Carlisle Adult and Community 
    Education Program in Massachusetts.

        Larry is the author of the following EJASA articles:

        "The One Dream Man: Robert H. Goddard, Rocket Pioneer" - August 1989
        "Stopping Space and Light Pollution" - September 1989              
        "The Rocky Soviet Road to Mars" - October 1989
        "Astronomy and the Family" - May 1991  
        "The Soviets and Venus, Part 1" - February 1993
        "The Soviets and Venus, Part 2" - March 1993

      THE ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF THE ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY OF THE ATLANTIC

                          April 1993 - Vol. 4, No. 9

#I find myself unable to put these two statements together in a
#sensible way:
#
#>Abortion is done because the mother can not afford the *pregnancy*.
#
#[...]
#
#>If we refused to pay for the more expensive choice of birth, *then*
#>your statement would make sense.  But that is not the case, so it doesn't.
#
#Are we paying for the birth or not, Mr. Parker?  If so, why can't the
#mother afford the pregnancy?  If not, what is the meaning of the
#latter objection?  You can't have it both ways.

Birth != pregnancy.  If they were the same, the topic of abortion would 
hardly arise, would it, Mr. Skinner?

Isn't that just a variation of the "Achilles & the turtle" paradox, which
states that achilles could never possibly overtake a turtle?

		 	How should one deal with a man who is convinced that
		 	he is acting according to God's will, and who there-
     Jokke		fore believes that he is doing you a favour by
		 	stabbing you in the back?

So what do we have now, an integral over pain X time?

I get to lash you with a wet noodle for ever, but I only get to
cut you up with a power saw if I'm quick about it?

Does anyone know how to access and/or display multiple pages in mode 13h
while still maintaining the 1 byte per pixel memory organization?
Examples in C or Assembly would be appreciated...
Thanks
Scott

I currently have some grayscale image files that are not in any
standard format.  They simply contain the 8-bit pixel values.  I would
like to display these images on a PC.  The conversion to a GIF format
would be helpful.  This conversion can take place either on a PC
or on a UNIX system and I could then download it to the PC.
Can anyone suggest where I can find software to do this?  Alternatively, I
may have to write my own conversion program.  In this case, could someone
tell me where I can find the GIF format specification?

Please e-mail me directly at: shayla@shannon.jpl.nasa.gov

                     MARS OBSERVER STATUS REPORT
                           April 28, 1993
                            12:40 PM PDT

Flight Sequence C9 is active as of 00:11 AM, Tuesday, April 27.  With
activities beginning at shortly before 5:00 AM yesterday, C9 commanded
the spacecraft to execute a series of slews and rolls to provide the MAG
(Magnetometer) Team data points in varying spacecraft attitudes and
orientations for the purpose of better characterizing the

The spacecraft was commanded back to Sun Star Init state at 9:07 AM to
re-establish Inertial Reference.  Transition back to Array Normal Spin
began at 11:17 AM, after which the sequence powered on the on-board
transmitter at 11:18 AM.  Telemetry reacquisition occurred at
approximately 11:30 AM at the 4 KBS Science and Engineering downlink
data rate on the High Gain Antenna.  Subsystem engineers report that all
systems appear to be nominal.  The command to terminate using the Low
Gain Antenna for uplink was sent at 12:31 PM.  Uplink and Downlink are
currently via the HGA.

MAG Calibration data has been recorded on Digital Tape Recorders 2 and 3.
Playback of DTR 2 is scheduled to take place tomorrow morning between
8:11 AM and 12:42 PM.  Playback of DTR 3 is scheduled to take place
tomorrow evening beginning at 11:57 PM and ending at 4:28 AM on Friday.
DTR playback will be performed via the High Gain Antenna at 42,667 bits
per second.  Upon verification of successful DTR playbacks, downlink will
be maintained at the 4K S & E rate.

-- 
Douglas C. Meier		|  You can't play Electro-magnetic Golf
Northwestern University, ACNS 	|  according to the rules of Centrifugal
This University is too Commie-	|  Bumblepuppy. -Huxley, Brave New World
Lib Pinko to have these views.	|  dmeier@casbah.acns.nwu.edu

G'day Brian,

I'll be blunt about this. The ONLY reasonable explanation of Roberts
algorithm is in

Procedural Elements for Computer Graphics
Rogers
McGraw-Hill Book Co. 1985

Go to the library and look at this.

There is also a somewhat muddled explanation in the first edition
of Newman and Sproull.

The algorithm described in PECG runs in near linear time.

Luck,

	May I ask why they are afraid to do so?

---

  Speaking of proofs of God, the funniest one I have ever seen was in a
  term paper handed in by a freshman.  She wrote, "God must exist, because
  he wouldn't be so mean as to make me believe he exists if he really
  doesn't!"  Is this argument really so much worse than the ontological
  proofs of the existence of God provided by Anselm and Descartes, among
  others?

   _The_ problem with Oort cloud sources is that absolutely
   no plausible mechanism has been proposed. It would have
   to involve new physics as far as I can tell. Closest to
   "conventional" Oort sources is a model of B-field pinching
   by comets, it's got too many holes in it to count, but at
   least it was a good try...

So you have a plausible model for GRB's at astronomical distances?
Recent observations have just about ruled out the merging neutron star
hypothesis, which had a lot of problems, anyhow.  We have to look for
implausible models and what is fundamentally allowed independent of
models.

A paper on the possibility of GRB's in the Oort cloud just came
through the astrophysics abstract service.  To get a copy of this
paper, send a message to astro-ph@babbage.sissa.it with the subject
line 
  get 9304001

Here is the abstract of that paper.

   The currently favored explanation for the origin of \GRBs puts them
   at cosmological distances;
   but as long as there is no distance
   indicator to these events all possible sources which are
   isotropically distributed should remain under consideration. This is
   why the Oort cloud of comets is kept on the list,
   although there is no known mechanism for generating \GRBs
   from cometary nuclei. Unlikely as it may seem, the possibility that \GRBs
   originate in the solar cometary cloud
   cannot be excluded until it is disproved.

   We use the available data on the distribution of \GRBs (the BATSE
   catalogue up to March, 1992), and
   the Catalogue of Cometary Orbits  by Marsden and Williams (1992) to
   investigate whether there is any observational indication for correlations
   between the angular distributions of \GRBs and comets' aphelia,
   assuming that the distribution of aphelia direction reflect,
   at least to some extent, true variations
   in the column density of the Oort cloud. We also apply the $\vov$
   test to both distributions.

Looking at your discussion I would say that you both operate
from your own reference frame. There's no inside and no outside,
there are just two polarized views. As for statements inside the
Bible, things are still not that clear, we don't have any indications
for instance why Jobs was placed in the Old Testament, one of the 
few books that actually talks about Satan. Jobs is very much out
of line with the rest of the OT books, and there's a chance that
someone added this book later into the group of OT scriptures.

This operates the other way around as well. You have to understand
the mind of an atheist, agnostic, or as in my case, a radical
relativist. If you don't understand the underlying concepts, it is 
pretty hard to continue with a dialogue. I'm not a perfect Christian,
however about 20+ years of Christian teaching should have provided
me with a pretty good picture of the Christian mind frame.

Cheers,
Kent

Well, you're going to have to practice, but you're getting
the hang of it.  Soon we're going to have to give you a new
nickname.  Try these on for size:

Tammy "Lucky Seven" Healy
Tammy "Pass the falafel" Healy
Tammy "R Us" Healy
Tammy "Learning by Doing" Healy

Maddi "Never a Useful Post" Hausmann

-- 

Actually, both numbers are correct.  The difference is in the direction
of the acceleration.  For pilots, accelerations tend to be transverse to
the direction you're facing (pulling out from a steep dive, the
acceleration will force blood toward your feet, for instance).  In this
case, you can only put up with about 8 g's even with a pressure suit.  

The record for acceleration, though, is measured along "the direction
you're facing" (for lack of a better term).  As I recall, this record
was set in rocket sleds back in the 60's -- and was about 40 g's or so.

On one of the morning shows (I think is was the Today Show), David Koresh's
lawyer was interviewed. During that interview he flipped through some letters
that David Koresh wrote. On one of letters was written in Hebrew (near the
bottom of the page):

  koresh adonai

: >But if entertainment (company) sell computer programs saying they are virus 
: >safe. Doesn`t they have burden of proof that viruses don`t exist in their 
: >floppies ?

: I don't think so.  The assumption is there.  If it turns out that
: their software has a virus, then it is up to you to prove that fact
: to a court to get any damages.  You are theoretically suppossed to 
: be able to get damages for that, but you have to give some evidence
: that the virus came from that software.  But since the computer
: company is the defendent, they are uninvolved until proven guilty.

All right. I'm not and won't be lawyer. What about doctors?
I going to fly aeroplane (or drive car). Doctors have to look for different
kind of illnesses in me before I get permission to fly an aeroplane.
They have burden of proof that "harmful illnesses don't exist in me",
do they ?

(I'm just questioning my belief that believers have the burden of proof.)

: Please, not Pascal!  NOOOOO!! ;)
Oh!  Are you those bug-generator C-programmers  ? :-)
Turbo Pascal is the BEST and FASTEST for edit-run-edit-run cycles !
----------------------- ktikkane@phoenix.oulu.fi -------------------
  Kari Tikkanen      !   .  . -#- !      b        !   begin  

  Due to a discussion on this group some time ago, the theists would
  more likely take an Asimov quote out of context and paint him as
  the biggest Bible thumpin', God fearin', atheist hatin' christian
  you ever laid eyes on.  Right up there with Einstein.

Well, here goes.

The first item of business is to establish the importance space life
sciences in the whole of scheme of humankind.  I mean compared
to football and baseball, the average joe schmoe doesn't seem interested
or even curious about spaceflight.  I think that this forum can
make a major change in that lack of insight and education.

All of us, in our own way, can contribute to a comprehensive document
which can be released to the general public around the world.  The
document would scientifically analyze the technical aspects of long
term human habitation in space.

I believe that if any long-term space exploration program is to 
succeed we need to basically learn how to engineer our own microworld
(i.e. the spacecraft).  Only through the careful analyses of engineering,
chemical, biological, and medical factors will a good ecosystem be created
to facilitate human life on a long-duration flight.

So, I would like to see posts of opinions regarding the most objective
methods to analyze the accepted scientific literature for technologies
which can be applied to long-duration spaceflight.  Such a detailed
literature search would be of interest to ourselves as space advocates
and clearly important to existing space programs.

In essence, we would be dividing the space life science issues into
various technical problems which could be solved with various technologies.
This database of acceptable solutions to various problems could form the
basis of detailed discussions involving people from the bionet, isunet,
and any other source!

From: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com

There are many indications that would have taken place had Saddam
been wanting or planning on going into Saudi Arabia.  There were
none.  This has been openly stated by ex-Pentagon analysts.  Pull.

Actually, reports from other mid-east countries showed that Hussein
was ready to make concessions due to the sanctions.  We just didn't want
him to - we wanted to crush him, as well as battle-test all these high
tech toys we've built over the years.

We're also hypocrites of the first magnitude.  Obviously, we don't give
a shit about freedom and democracy.  All we care about is our oil.  Oh,
and the excuse, now that the Soviets are gone from the board, to keep
a sizable military presence in the gulf region.  Care to make bets about
when ALL our troops will come home?

Basically, Saddam was OK with us.  He was a killer, who tortured his
own people, used gas on them, and other horrors - he was a brutal
dictator, but he was OUR brutal dictator.  Once he said "fuck you" to
the US, he became the next Hitler.  The same for Noriega.  He was a
bastard, but he was OUR bastard...until he changed his mind and went
his own way.  Then we had to get rid of him.

David Hunt - Graduate Slave |     My mind is my own.      | Towards both a
Mechanical Engineering      | So are my ideas & opinions. | Palestinian and
Carnegie Mellon University  | <<<Use Golden Rule v2.0>>>  | Jewish homeland!
====T=H=E=R=E===I=S===N=O===G=O=D=========T=H=E=R=E===I=S===N=O===G=O=D=====
Email:  bluelobster+@cmu.edu    Working towards my "Piled Higher and Deeper"

Being wierd again, so be warned:

Is there a plan to put a satellite around each planet in the solar system to
keep watch? I help it better to ask questions before I spout an opinion.

How about a mission (unmanned) to Pluto to stay in orbit and record things
around and near and on Pluto.. I know it is a strange idea, but why not??
It could do some scanning of not only Pluto, but also of the solar system,
objects near and aaroundpluto, as well as SETI and looking at the galaxy
without having much of the solar system to worry about..

	This seems appropriate, somehow...>:-)>
[....]
	Hah!  I have it on the very *best* authority (mine) that Koresh is
whooping it up in a time-share condo in Dallas with Elvis, JFK, and (of course)
J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, who also owns the place and everything else in Texas.
	Look for "koresh" sightings in the Weekly World News and National
Enquirer in the coming months.

Hijaak claims to convert .dxf to .iff, although Hijaak claims some stuff
that I have never gotten to work (for example, not long ago I tried to
convert some .iff files from an Amiga video toaster (using CrossDos, so my
PC could read the disks) int Targa files.  Hijaak made some gorgeous 1.5
megabyte Targa files from the .iffs -- all totally black!

CALL FOR PAPERS
                             ===============

                        Progress In Neural Networks
                     Special Volume on Shape Analysis

                Omid M. Omidvar         Minsoo Suk
                 Series Editor        Volume Editor

Significant progress has been made recently in shape analysis using
neural networks and the energy minimization concept. Ablex Publishing
Corporation is planning a special volume on "Shape Analysis", scheduled
for this year.

This volume will be a part of "Progress in Neural Networks," an annual
book series reviewing research in modelling, analysis, design and
application of neural networks. The primary aim of this volume is to
present, in a single volume, the most important achievements made on
this important topic, which are otherwise scattered in diverse literature.

Authors are invited to submit original manuscripts detailing recent
progress. Suggested topics include, but are not limited to: shape modelling,
shape estimation, shape recovery, shape representation, shape matching,
surface reconstruction and surface decomposition. Research work utilizing
neural networks directly or based on energy minimization techniques such as
Markov random field, mean field annealing, simulated annealing, graduated
non-convexity algorithms and resistive networks are most welcome.

The paper should be tutorial in nature, self contained and preferably,
but not necessarily, about fifty double spaced pages in length. Please send
electronically (if you prefer, you can send a hardcopy to the address below)
an  abstract and an outline to
msuk@ima.enst.fr
by May 30, 1993. The full paper must be submitted by July 31, 1993 to:

Europe                                  USA

I don't think a reboost exercise is analogous to a shuttle landing/launch
in terms of stresses/misalignments/etc.  I would think of the reboost as
a gentile push, where a landing, then launch as two JOLTS which would
put more mechanical stress on the instruments.  Additionally, there might
be a concern about landing loads to the shuttle in the event of a laden
landing.  Finally, probably some thought went into possible contamination 
problems if the instruments came back to earth.

Of course, the cost of two shuttle launches _is_ a good reason to avoid
something that might be done in one shuttle launch.  Here's hoping
Cepi's gang gets the job done right the first time.

If a Christian means someone who believes in the divinity of Jesus, it is safe
to say that Jesus was a Christian.
--

::DATE:   Sun, 25 Apr 1993 10:13:30 GMT
::FROM:   Fred Rice <darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au:
::
::
::The Qur'an talks about those who take their lusts and worldly desires for 
::their "god".
::
::I think this probably encompasses most atheists.
::
:: Fred Rice
:: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   
:
:As well as all the Muslim men screwing fourteen year old prostitutes in
:Thailand.  Got a better quote?
:

vamilliron:  Yes, Intel's PCI is (another) Local Bus standard, which
can be used for graphics, although I believe Local Buses can be used
for other things, too.  As far as I know, though, PCI Local Bus 
would compete with VESA Local Bus, not the VESA graphics standard, but
others more enlightened might be able to shed more light on this
matter.

I am doing research on atheism, part of which involves field research here
on the net.  The following is a survey directed towards all readers of this
group, intended to get data about the basis of atheistic belief.  I would
seriously appreciate it if each and every one of you would fill it out and
mail it back to me at mtabbott@unix.amherst.edu.  

First of all, I've tried to structure questions that can be answered in a
variety of ways, with varying amounts of detail; it's possible to give 
succinct answers to most everything, but there's enough here to keep most of 
you typing for hours, I'm sure.  As much detail as you want to give me (I mean 
it) is great, but it's also important for me to have as broad a base of 
individuals as possible, so even minimal responses are far better than nothing
-- it's a short survey if you just answer the questions without elaboration.  

Secondly, I hope some of the questions don't come off as obnoxious; I know that
phrases like "What would convince you of the existence of God" imply that I am
a seminary student intent on proving you all to be ignorant Godless heathens.
In fact, I'm not too sure about the existence of a higher power myself, so my
use of "God" is a question of locution rather than ideology -- it's easier 
than just repeating "a deity or higher power" every time.  

Also, I tend to use a lot of anthropological buzzwords like "belief system"
although I know some of you might contend that you don't have ANY beliefs, but
are skeptical towards everything.  I understand; but you know what I mean.
Think of such buzzwords as abbreviations for the rather unweildy phrases 
required to get the precise idea across.  

Lastly, thanks!  Please fill out as much as you can, in as much detail as
you can, and send them to me.  My research and I thank you.  

Where would you place your beliefs, on the spectrum 
	Theism <--> Agnosticism <--> Weak Atheism <--> Strong Atheism?  
Feel free to elaborate on your specific beliefs.  

In what, if any, religious tradition were you raised?  Did you ever believe 
in the existence of a God?  (Several of the following questions presume 
that the answer to this is "yes;" if you've always been an atheist, or at
least never a theist, you may have to modify the question/answer somewhat.)

How serious was your/your family's involvement?  

How and when did you start to doubt the tenets you were raised to believe?  

How and when did your "final break" with your beliefs, if any, occur?  I 
realize that this is often more of an ongoing process than an "event" per se;
whatever the case, just describe it in whatever detail you wish.  

What contact with other atheists have you had; before and after (and during)
your "conversion" to atheism?  (Certainly your involvement with alt.atheism
counts -- how have net discussions affected your beliefs?)  

To what extent do you think other atheists have influenced you in your
beliefs?  Did you come by your beliefs through discussion, through
independent means, or by some combination of the two or other means?  

Are you convinced that your beliefs were acquired through wholly rational
means (proofs of the non-existence of God, etc), or was it perhaps, at least 
in part, through other means (alienation from mainstream religion, etc)?  

To what extent do you feel you "understand" the universe through your beliefs?
What phenomena of the universe and of human existence (anything from physical
phenomena to the problem of the existence of evil in human affairs) do you 
feel are adequately dealt with by your beliefs, and where are they lacking as 
an explanatory method?  

What would it take for you to question, or change, your beliefs?  What would
convince you of the existence of God, what would convince you of the 
plausibility of God's existence, and so forth?  How dynamic are your beliefs
-- are they constantly changing; have they stayed more or less the same for
some time?  

Are you involved in a career or education in science?  To what extent do you
think science has influenced your beliefs?  (Issac Asimov claimed that science
was the new "secular religion," and that "scientists are, in a very real sense,
the new priesthood."  Do you see the pursuit of science as having a quasi-
religious base, or even a religious element?)  

This survey is intended to get data from a broad range of individuals, but
also to help me narrow down the field to a small group of people whose
ideas and histories could be very useful to me.  Would you be willing to have
me, on the basis of this survey, write you to find out more about you and your
beliefs?  If not, fine; your filling out the survey alone is great.  

Thanks again.  Feel free to contact me if you have any questions about what
I'm doing with this data, or if you have anything to say in addition to what
I've asked about above.  

My understanding of the academic use of the word cult is that it is
a group of people oriented around a single authority figure. It need
not be religious. However, I have seen plenty of religious cults,
including some that mainstream.

Actually, I've got an entire list of books written by various atheist
authors and I went to the largest bookstore in my area (Pittsburgh) and
couldn't find _any_ of them.  What section of the bookstore do you find
these kinds of books in?  Do you have to look in an "alternative" bookstore
for most of them?  Any help would be appreciated (I can send you the list
if you want).

What would you accept as sources?  This very thing has been written
in lots of books.  You could start with Erich Fromm's _The Dogma of Christ_.

He is God.

He is God.

God granted you the gift of life whether you were sinner or saint.
 
The scientist creates the living creature to examine it, poke and prod it and
learn about its behaviour.  He will kill it if it becomes a threat.  For
example, let's say the scientist creates a Tyrannosaurus Rex and it breaks
free of its confines and starts devouring the population.  The scientist
would not hesitate in killing it.

God creates us to be His loving companions.  He knows whether we are true in 
our love for Him or not.  And He lets us know the consequences of rejecting Him.
God cannot abide by sin.  By rejecting God, a person becomes an enemy of God,
one that must be killed by Him.  Note:  I say that God and God alone is
worthy to be Judge, Jury and Executioner.  We are not called to carry out
such duties because we are not worthy.
 
God is God.  Who are we to question the Creator?  If you doubt God's doing
in certain situations, do you claim to know a better solution?  Would you
be playing the role of God?

I don't think touting contributions is a good idea.  World War II produced
many many beneficial spinoffs.  Eg. Radar, jet aeroplanes, rocket technology.
I don't think anyone would argue that World War II was, in and of itself,
a good thing.

If you want people to back the space program it must be a good thing in
and of itself.

Then you better pray for me, too, because I believe that the Mighty
Invisibile Pink Unicorn does not exist. One being cannot be both "Pink"
and "Invisible." The demon (or should that be daemon?) that keeps me
from believing and saving my soul is named Logic.

    For your information, I checked the Library of Congress catalog,
and they list the following books by Francis Hitching:

    Earth Magic

    The Neck of the Giraffe, or Where Darwin Went Wrong

    Pendulum: the Psi Connection

    The World Atlas of Mysteries

Sadly understandable...

Yes.

To be fair, you should really qualify this as semitic-western religions, but
you basically go ahead and do this later on anyway.

Again, this should really be evaluated at a personal level.  For example, there
was only one Jesus (presumably), and he probably didn't say all that many
things, and yet (seemingly) billions and billions of Christian sects have
arisen.  Perhaps there is one that is totally dedicated to rationalism and
believes in Christ as in pantheism.  It would seem to go against the Bible, but
it is amazing what people come up with under the guise of "personal
interpretation".

This is a good point.  We have here the quintessential Christian: he sets up a
system of values/beliefs for himself, which work very well, and every
event/experience is understandable and deablable within the framework of this
system.  However, we also have an individual who has the inability (at least
not without some difficulty) to change, which is important, because the problem
with such a system is the same as with any system: one cannot be open minded to
the point of "testing hypotheses" against the basic premise of the system
without destroying whatever faith is invested therein, unless of course, all
the tests fail.  In other words, the *fairer* way would be to test and evaluate
moralities without the bias/responsibility of losing/retaining a system.

Interesting, but again, when it seems to basically boil down to individual
nuances (although not always, I will admit, and probably it is the
mass-oriented divisions which are the most appalling), it becomes irrelevant,
unfortunately.

Granted

In which case the people become the bullets, and the religion, as the gun,
merely offers them a way to more adequately do some harm with themselves, if I
may be so bold as to extend your similie?

Also understandable... ;)

-- 

I can't speak to sheer mass, but part of the problem is that HST
wasn't built to ever be brought back down.  It's not built for those
kinds of 'jolt' forces and there is no support cradle for it (which is
additional weight that would be required.

-- 

I didn't exactly follow the "dragless" satellitte  thread.

What is the point of it?  are they used for  laser geodesy  missions?
triad seemed to be some sort of navy navigation bird,  but why
be "dragless"  why not just update  orbital parameters?

This file and other text and image files from JPL missions are
available from the JPL Info public access computer site,
reachable by Internet via anonymous ftp to pubinfo.jpl.nasa.gov
(128.149.6.2); or by dialup modem to +1 (818) 354-1333, up to
9600 bits per second, parameters N-8-1.

Our Solar System at a Glance

Information Summary 
PMS 010-A (JPL)
June 1991

JPL 410-34-1  6/91

NASA
National Aeronautics and Space Administration

Jet Propulsion Laboratory
California Institue of Technology
Pasadena, California

For a printed copy of this publication contact the public mail
office at the NASA center in your geographic region.

     From our small world we have gazed upon the cosmic ocean for
untold thousands of years. Ancient astronomers observed points of
light that appeared to move among the stars. They called these
objects planets, meaning wanderers, and named them after Roman
deities -- Jupiter, king of the gods; Mars, the god of war;
Mercury, messenger of the gods; Venus, the god of love and
beauty, and Saturn, father of Jupiter and god of agriculture. The
stargazers also observed comets with sparkling tails, and meteors
or shooting stars apparently falling from the sky.

     Science flourished during the European Renaissance.
Fundamental physical laws governing planetary motion were
discovered, and the orbits of the planets around the Sun were
calculated. In the 17th century, astronomers pointed a new device
called the telescope at the heavens and made startling
discoveries.

     But the years since 1959 have amounted to a golden age of
solar system exploration. Advancements in rocketry after World
War II enabled our machines to break the grip of Earth's gravity
and travel to the Moon and to other planets.

     The United States has sent automated spacecraft, then
human-crewed expeditions, to explore the Moon. Our automated
machines have orbited and landed on Venus and Mars; explored the
Sun's environment; observed comets, and made close-range surveys
while flying past Mercury, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune.

     These travelers brought a quantum leap in our knowledge and
understanding of the solar system. Through the electronic sight
and other "senses" of our automated spacecraft, color and
complexion have been given to worlds that for centuries appeared
to Earth-bound eyes as fuzzy disks or indistinct points of light.
And dozens of previously unknown objects have been discovered.

     Future historians will likely view these pioneering flights
through the solar system as some of the most remarkable
achievements of the 20th century.
     
AUTOMATED SPACECRAFT

     The National Aeronautics and Space Administration's (NASA's)
automated spacecraft for solar system exploration come in many
shapes and sizes. While they are designed to fulfill separate and
specific mission objectives, the craft share much in common.

     Each spacecraft consists of various scientific instruments
selected for a particular mission, supported by basic subsystems
for electrical power, trajectory and orientation control, as well
as for processing data and communicating with Earth.

     Electrical power is required to operate the spacecraft
instruments and systems. NASA uses both solar energy from arrays
of photovoltaic cells and small nuclear generators to power its
solar system missions. Rechargeable batteries are employed for
backup and supplemental power.

     Imagine that a spacecraft has successfully journeyed
millions of miles through space to fly but one time near a
planet, only to have its cameras and other sensing instruments
pointed the wrong way as it speeds past the target! To help
prevent such a mishap, a subsystem of small thrusters is used to
control spacecraft.

     The thrusters are linked with devices that maintain a
constant gaze at selected stars. Just as Earth's early seafarers
used the stars to navigate the oceans, spacecraft use stars to
maintain their bearings in space. With the subsystem locked onto
fixed points of reference, flight controllers can keep a
spacecraft's scientific instruments pointed at the target body
and the craft's communications antennas pointed toward Earth. The
thrusters can also be used to fine-tune the flight path and speed
of the spacecraft to ensure that a target body is encountered at
the planned distance and on the proper trajectory.

     Between 1959 and 1971, NASA spacecraft were dispatched to
study the Moon and the solar environment; they also scanned the
inner planets other than Earth -- Mercury, Venus and Mars. These
three worlds, and our own, are known as the terrestrial planets
because they share a solid-rock composition.

     For the early planetary reconnaissance missions, NASA
employed a highly successful series of spacecraft called the
Mariners. Their flights helped shape the planning of later
missions. Between 1962 and 1975, seven Mariner missions conducted
the first surveys of our planetary neighbors in space.

     All of the Mariners used solar panels as their primary power
source. The first and the final versions of the spacecraft had
two wings covered with photovoltaic cells. Other Mariners were
equipped with four solar panels extending from their octagonal
bodies.

     Although the Mariners ranged from the Mariner 2 Venus
spacecraft, weighing in at 203 kilograms (447 pounds), to the
Mariner 9 Mars Orbiter, weighing in at 974 kilograms (2,147
pounds), their basic design remained quite similar throughout the
program. The Mariner 5 Venus spacecraft, for example, had
originally been a backup for the Mariner 4 Mars flyby. The
Mariner 10 spacecraft sent to Venus and Mercury used components
left over from the Mariner 9 Mars Orbiter program.

     In 1972, NASA launched Pioneer 10, a Jupiter spacecraft.
Interest was shifting to four of the outer planets -- Jupiter,
Saturn, Uranus and Neptune -- giant balls of dense gas quite
different from the terrestrial worlds we had already surveyed.

     Four NASA spacecraft in all -- two Pioneers and two Voyagers
-- were sent in the 1970s to tour the outer regions of our solar
system. Because of the distances involved, these travelers took
anywhere from 20 months to 12 years to reach their destinations.
Barring faster spacecraft, they will eventually become the first
human artifacts to journey to distant stars. Because the Sun's
light becomes so faint in the outer solar system, these travelers
do not use solar power but instead operate on electricity
generated by heat from the decay of radioisotopes.

     NASA also developed highly specialized spacecraft to revisit
our neighbors Mars and Venus in the middle and late 1970s. Twin
Viking Landers were equipped to serve as seismic and weather
stations and as biology laboratories. Two advanced orbiters --
descendants of the Mariner craft -- carried the Viking Landers
from Earth and then studied martian features from above.

     Two drum-shaped Pioneer spacecraft visited Venus in 1978.
The Pioneer Venus Orbiter was equipped with a radar instrument
that allowed it to "see" through the planet's dense cloud cover
to study surface features. The Pioneer Venus Multiprobe carried
four probes that were dropped through the clouds. The probes and
the main body -- all of which contained scientific instruments --
radioed information about the planet's atmosphere during their
descent toward the surface.

     A new generation of automated spacecraft -- including
Magellan, Galileo, Ulysses, Mars Observer, the Comet
Rendezvous/Asteroid Flyby (CRAF) and Cassini -- is being
developed and sent out into the solar system to make detailed
examinations that will increase our understanding of our
neighborhood and our own planet.
     
The Sun

     A discussion of the objects in the solar system must start
with the Sun. The Sun dwarfs the other bodies, representing
approximately 99.86 percent of all the mass in the solar system;
all of the planets, moons, asteroids, comets, dust and gas add up
to only about 0.14 percent. This 0.14 percent represents the
material left over from the Sun's formation. One hundred and nine
Earths would be required to fit across the Sun's disk, and its
interior could hold over 1.3 million Earths.

     As a star, the Sun generates energy through the process of
fusion. The temperature at the Sun's core is 15 million degrees
Celsius (27 million degrees Fahrenheit), and the pressure there
is 340 billion times Earth's air pressure at sea level. The Sun's
surface temperature of 5,500 degrees Celsius (10,000 degrees
Fahrenheit) seems almost chilly compared to its core-temperature.
At the solar core, hydrogen can fuse into helium, producing
energy. The Sun also produces a strong magnetic field and streams
of charged particles, both extending far beyond the planets.

     The Sun appears to have been active for 4.6 billion years
and has enough fuel to go on for another five billion years or
so. At the end of its life, the Sun will start to fuse helium
into heavier elements and begin to swell up, ultimately growing
so large that it will swallow Earth. After a billion years as a
"red giant," it will suddenly collapse into a "white dwarf" --
the final end product of a star like ours. It may take a trillion
years to cool off completely.

     Many spacecraft have explored the Sun's environment, but
none have gotten any closer to its surface than approximately
two-thirds of the distance from Earth to the Sun. Pioneers 5-11,
the Pioneer Venus Orbiter, Voyagers 1 and 2 and other spacecraft
have all sampled the solar environment. The Ulysses spacecraft,
launched on October 6, 1990, is a joint solar mission of NASA and
the European Space Agency. After using Jupiter's gravity to
change its trajectory, Ulysses will fly over the Sun's polar
regions during 1994 and 1995 and will perform a wide range of
studies using nine onboard scientific instruments.

     We are fortunate that the Sun is exactly the way it is. If
it were different in almost any way, life would almost certainly
never have developed on Earth.
     
Mercury

     Obtaining the first close-up views of Mercury was the
primary objective of the Mariner 10 spacecraft, launched on
November 3, 1973, from Kennedy Space Center in Florida. After a
journey of nearly five months, which included a flyby of Venus,
the spacecraft passed within 703 kilometers (437 miles) of the
solar system's innermost planet on March 29, 1974.

     Until Mariner 10, little was known about Mercury. Even the
best telescopic views from Earth showed Mercury as an indistinct
object lacking any surface detail. The planet is so close to the
Sun that it is usually lost in solar glare. When the planet is
visible on Earth's horizon just after sunset or before dawn, it
is obscured by the haze and dust in our atmosphere. Only radar
telescopes gave any hint of Mercury's surface conditions prior to
the voyage of Mariner 10.

     The photographs Mariner 10 radioed back to Earth revealed an
ancient, heavily cratered surface, closely resembling our own
Moon. The pictures also showed huge cliffs crisscrossing the
planet. These apparently were created when Mercury's interior
cooled and shrank, buckling the planet's crust. The cliffs are as
high as 3 kilometers (2 miles) and as long as 500 kilometers (310
miles).

     Instruments on Mariner 10 discovered that Mercury has a weak
magnetic field and a trace of atmosphere -- a trillionth the
density of Earth's atmosphere and composed chiefly of argon, neon
and helium. When the planet's orbit takes it closest to the Sun,
surface temperatures range from 467 degrees Celsius (872 degrees
Fahrenheit) on Mercury's sunlit side to -183 degrees Celsius
(-298 degrees Fahrenheit) on the dark side. This range in surface
temperature -- 650 degrees Celsius (1,170 degrees Fahrenheit) --
is the largest for a single body in the solar system. Mercury
literally bakes and freezes at the same time.

     Days and nights are long on Mercury. The combination of a
slow rotation relative to the stars (59 Earth days) and a rapid
revolution around the Sun (88 Earth days) means that one Mercury
solar day takes 176 Earth days or two Mercury years -- the time
it takes the innermost planet to complete two orbits around the
Sun! 

     Mercury appears to have a crust of light silicate rock like
that of Earth. Scientists believe Mercury has a heavy iron-rich
core making up slightly less than half of its volume. That would
make Mercury's core larger, proportionally, than the Moon's core
or those of any of the planets.

     After the initial Mercury encounter, Mariner 10 made two
additional flybys -- on September 21, 1974, and March 16, 1975 --
before control gas used to orient the spacecraft was exhausted
and the mission was concluded. Each flyby took place at the same
local Mercury time when the identical half of the planet was
illuminated; as a result, we still have not seen one-half of the
planet's surface.
     
Venus

     Veiled by dense cloud cover, Venus -- our nearest planetary
neighbor -- was the first planet to be explored. The Mariner 2
spacecraft, launched on August 27, 1962, was the first of more
than a dozen successful American and Soviet missions to study the
mysterious planet. As spacecraft flew by or orbited Venus,
plunged into the atmosphere or gently landed on Venus' surface,
romantic myths and speculations about our neighbor were laid to
rest.

     On December 14, 1962, Mariner 2 passed within 34,839
kilometers (21,648 miles) of Venus and became the first
spacecraft to scan another planet; onboard instruments measured
Venus for 42 minutes. Mariner 5, launched in June 1967, flew much
closer to the planet. Passing within 4,094 kilometers (2,544
miles) of Venus on the second American flyby, Mariner 5's
instruments measured the planet's magnetic field, ionosphere,
radiation belts and temperatures. On its way to Mercury, Mariner
10 flew by Venus and transmitted ultraviolet pictures to Earth
showing cloud circulation patterns in the Venusian atmosphere.

     In the spring and summer of 1978, two spacecraft were
launched to further unravel the mysteries of Venus. On December 4
of the same year, the Pioneer Venus Orbiter became the first
spacecraft placed in orbit around the planet.

     Five days later, the five separate components making up the
second spacecraft -- the Pioneer Venus Multiprobe -- entered the
Venusian atmosphere at different locations above the planet. The
four small, independent probes and the main body radioed
atmospheric data back to Earth during their descent toward the
surface. Although designed to examine the atmosphere, one of the
probes survived its impact with the surface and continued to
transmit data for another hour.

     Venus resembles Earth in size, physical composition and
density more closely than any other known planet. However,
spacecraft have discovered significant differences as well. For
example, Venus' rotation (west to east) is retrograde (backward)
compared to the east-to-west spin of Earth and most of the other
planets.

     Approximately 96.5 percent of Venus' atmosphere (95 times as
dense as Earth's) is carbon dioxide. The principal constituent of
Earth's atmosphere is nitrogen. Venus' atmosphere acts like a
greenhouse, permitting solar radiation to reach the surface but
trapping the heat that would ordinarily be radiated back into
space. As a result, the planet's average surface temperature is
482 degrees Celsius (900 degrees Fahrenheit), hot enough to melt
lead.

     A radio altimeter on the Pioneer Venus Orbiter provided the
first means of seeing through the planet's dense cloud cover and
determining surface features over almost the entire planet.
NASA's Magellan spacecraft, launched on May 5, 1989, has been in
orbit around Venus since August 10, 1990. The spacecraft uses
radar-mapping techniques to provide ultrahigh-resolution images
of the surface.

     Magellan has revealed a landscape dominated by volcanic
features, faults and impact craters. Huge areas of the surface
show evidence of multiple periods of lava flooding with flows
lying on top of previous ones. An elevated region named Ishtar
Terra is a lava-filled basin as large as the United States. At
one end of this plateau sits Maxwell Montes, a mountain the size
of Mount Everest. Scarring the mountain's flank is a
100-kilometer (62-mile) wide, 2.5-kilometer (1.5-mile) deep
impact crater named Cleopatra. (Almost all features on Venus are
named for women; Maxwell Montes, Alpha Regio and Beta Regio are
the exceptions.) Craters survive on Venus for perhaps 400 million
years because there is no water and very little wind erosion.

     Extensive fault-line networks cover the planet, probably the
result of the same crustal flexing that produces plate tectonics
on Earth. But on Venus the surface temperature is sufficient to
weaken the rock, which cracks just about everywhere, preventing
the formation of major plates and large earthquake faults like
the San Andreas Fault in California.

     Venus' predominant weather pattern is a high-altitude,
high-speed circulation of clouds that contain sulfuric acid. At
speeds reaching as high as 360 kilometers (225 miles) per hour,
the clouds circle the planet in only four Earth days. The
circulation is in the same direction -- west to east -- as Venus'
slow rotation of 243 Earth days, whereas Earth's winds blow in
both directions -- west to east and east to west -- in six
alternating bands. Venus' atmosphere serves as a simplified
laboratory for the study of our weather.
     
Earth

     As viewed from space, our world's distinguishing
characteristics are its blue waters, brown and green land masses
and white clouds. We are enveloped by an ocean of air consisting
of 78 percent nitrogen, 21 percent oxygen and 1 percent other
constituents. The only planet in the solar system known to harbor
life, Earth orbits the Sun at an average distance of 150 million
kilometers (93 million miles). Earth is the third planet from the
Sun and the fifth largest in the solar system, with a diameter
just a few hundred kilometers larger than that of Venus.

     Our planet's rapid spin and molten nickel-iron core give
rise to an extensive magnetic field, which, along with the
atmosphere, shields us from nearly all of the harmful radiation
coming from the Sun and other stars. Earth's atmosphere protects
us from meteors as well, most of which burn up before they can
strike the surface. Active geological processes have left no
evidence of the pelting Earth almost certainly received soon
after it formed -- about 4.6 billion years ago. Along with the
other newly formed planets, it was showered by space debris in
the early days of the solar system.

     From our journeys into space, we have learned much about our
home planet. The first American satellite -- Explorer 1 -- was
launched from Cape Canaveral in Florida on January 31, 1958, and
discovered an intense radiation zone, now called the Van Allen
radiation belts, surrounding Earth.

     Since then, other research satellites have revealed that our
planet's magnetic field is distorted into a tear-drop shape by
the solar wind -- the stream of charged particles continuously
ejected from the Sun. We've learned that the magnetic field does
not fade off into space but has definite boundaries. And we now
know that our wispy upper atmosphere, once believed calm and
uneventful, seethes with activity -- swelling by day and
contracting by night. Affected by changes in solar activity, the
upper atmosphere contributes to weather and climate on Earth.

     Besides affecting Earth's weather, solar activity gives rise
to a dramatic visual phenomenon in our atmosphere. When charged
particles from the solar wind become trapped in Earth's magnetic
field, they collide with air molecules above our planet's
magnetic poles. These air molecules then begin to glow and are
known as the auroras or the northern and southern lights.

     Satellites about 35,789 kilometers (22,238 miles) out in
space play a major role in daily local weather forecasting. These
watchful electronic eyes warn us of dangerous storms. Continuous
global monitoring provides a vast amount of useful data and
contributes to a better understanding of Earth's complex weather
systems.

     From their unique vantage points, satellites can survey
Earth's oceans, land use and resources, and monitor the planet's
health. These eyes in space have saved countless lives, provided
tremendous conveniences and shown us that we may be altering our
planet in dangerous ways.
     
The Moon

     The Moon is Earth's single natural satellite. The first
human footsteps on an alien world were made by American
astronauts on the dusty surface of our airless, lifeless
companion. In preparation for the human-crewed Apollo
expeditions, NASA dispatched the automated Ranger, Surveyor and
Lunar Orbiter spacecraft to study the Moon between 1964 and 1968.

     NASA's Apollo program left a large legacy of lunar materials
and data. Six two-astronaut crews landed on and explored the
lunar surface between 1969 and 1972, carrying back a collection
of rocks and soil weighing a total of 382 kilograms (842 pounds)
and consisting of more than 2,000 separate samples.

     From this material and other studies, scientists have
constructed a history of the Moon that includes its infancy.
Rocks collected from the lunar highlands date to about 4.0-4.3
billion years old. The first few million years of the Moon's
existence were so violent that few traces of this period remain.
As a molten outer layer gradually cooled and solidified into
different kinds of rock, the Moon was bombarded by huge asteroids
and smaller objects. Some of the asteroids were as large as Rhode
Island or Delaware, and their collisions with the Moon created
basins hundreds of kilometers across.

     This catastrophic bombardment tapered off approximately four
billion years ago, leaving the lunar highlands covered with huge,
overlapping craters and a deep layer of shattered and broken
rock. Heat produced by the decay of radioactive elements began to
melt the interior of the Moon at depths of about 200 kilometers
(125 miles) below the surface. Then, for the next 700 million
years -- from about 3.8 to 3.1 billion years ago -- lava rose
from inside the Moon. The lava gradually spread out over the
surface, flooding the large impact basins to form the dark areas
that Galileo Galilei, an astronomer of the Italian Renaissance,
called maria, meaning seas.

     As far as we can tell, there has been no significant
volcanic activity on the Moon for more than three billion years.
Since then, the lunar surface has been altered only by
micrometeorites, by the atomic particles from the Sun and stars,
by the rare impacts of large meteorites and by spacecraft and
astronauts. If our astronauts had landed on the Moon a billion
years ago, they would have seen a landscape very similar to the
one today. Thousands of years from now, the footsteps left by the
Apollo crews will remain sharp and clear.

     The origin of the Moon is still a mystery. Four theories
attempt an explanation: the Moon formed near Earth as a separate
body; it was torn from Earth; it formed somewhere else and was
captured by our planet's gravity, or it was the result of a
collision between Earth and an asteroid about the size of Mars.
The last theory has some good support but is far from certain.
     
Mars

     Of all the planets, Mars has long been considered the solar
system's prime candidate for harboring extraterrestrial life.
Astronomers studying the red planet through telescopes saw what
appeared to be straight lines crisscrossing its surface. These
observations -- later determined to be optical illusions -- led
to the popular notion that intelligent beings had constructed a
system of irrigation canals on the planet. In 1938, when Orson
Welles broadcast a radio drama based on the science fiction
classic War of the Worlds  by H.G. Wells, enough people believed
in the tale of invading martians to cause a near panic.

     Another reason for scientists to expect life on Mars had to
do with the apparent seasonal color changes on the planet's
surface. This phenomenon led to speculation that conditions might
support a bloom of martian vegetation during the warmer months
and cause plant life to become dormant during colder periods.

     So far, six American missions to Mars have been carried out.
Four Mariner spacecraft -- three flying by the planet and one
placed into martian orbit -- surveyed the planet extensively
before the Viking Orbiters and Landers arrived.

     Mariner 4, launched in late 1964, flew past Mars on July 14,
1965, coming within 9,846 kilometers (6,118 miles) of the
surface. Transmitting to Earth 22 close-up pictures of the
planet, the spacecraft found many craters and naturally occurring
channels but no evidence of artificial canals or flowing water.
Mariners 6 and 7 followed with their flybys during the summer of
1969 and returned 201 pictures. Mariners 4, 6 and 7 showed a
diversity of surface conditions as well as a thin, cold, dry
atmosphere of carbon dioxide.

     On May 30, 1971, the Mariner 9 Orbiter was launched on a
mission to make a year-long study of the martian surface. The
spacecraft arrived five and a half months after lift-off, only to
find Mars in the midst of a planet-wide dust storm that made
surface photography impossible for several weeks. But after the
storm cleared, Mariner 9 began returning the first of 7,329
pictures; these revealed previously unknown martian features,
including evidence that large amounts of water once flowed across
the surface, etching river valleys and flood plains.

     In August and September 1975, the Viking 1 and 2 spacecraft
-- each consisting of an orbiter and a lander -- lifted off from
Kennedy Space Center. The mission was designed to answer several
questions about the red planet, including, Is there life there?
Nobody expected the spacecraft to spot martian cities, but it was
hoped that the biology experiments on the Viking Landers would at
least find evidence of primitive life -- past or present.

     Viking Lander 1 became the first spacecraft to successfully
touch down on another planet when it landed on July 20, 1976,
while the United States was celebrating its Bicentennial. Photos
sent back from the Chryse Planitia ("Plains of Gold") showed a
bleak, rusty-red landscape. Panoramic images returned by the
lander revealed a rolling plain, littered with rocks and marked
by rippled sand dunes. Fine red dust from the martian soil gives
the sky a salmon hue. When Viking Lander 2 touched down on Utopia
Planitia on September 3, 1976, it viewed a more rolling landscape
than the one seen by its predecessor -- one without visible
dunes.

     The results sent back by the laboratory on each Viking
Lander were inconclusive. Small samples of the red martian soil
were tested in three different experiments designed to detect
biological processes. While some of the test results seemed to
indicate biological activity, later analysis confirmed that this
activity was inorganic in nature and related to the planet's soil
chemistry. Is there life on Mars? No one knows for sure, but the
Viking mission found no evidence that organic molecules exist
there.

     The Viking Landers became weather stations, recording wind
velocity and direction as well as atmospheric temperature and
pressure. Few weather changes were observed. The highest
temperature recorded by either craft was -14 degrees Celsius (7
degrees Fahrenheit) at the Viking Lander 1 site in midsummer.

     The lowest temperature, -120 degrees Celsius (-184 degrees
Fahrenheit), was recorded at the more northerly Viking Lander 2
site during winter. Near-hurricane wind speeds were measured at
the two martian weather stations during global dust storms, but
because the atmosphere is so thin, wind force is minimal. Viking
Lander 2 photographed light patches of frost -- probably
water-ice -- during its second winter on the planet.

     The martian atmosphere, like that of Venus, is primarily
carbon dioxide. Nitrogen and oxygen are present only in small
percentages. Martian air contains only about 1/1,000 as much
water as our air, but even this small amount can condense out,
forming clouds that ride high in the atmosphere or swirl around
the slopes of towering volcanoes. Local patches of early morning
fog can form in valleys.

     There is evidence that in the past a denser martian
atmosphere may have allowed water to flow on the planet. Physical
features closely resembling shorelines, gorges, riverbeds and
islands suggest that great rivers once marked the planet.

     Mars has two moons, Phobos and Deimos. They are small and
irregularly shaped and possess ancient, cratered surfaces. It is
possible the moons were originally asteroids that ventured too
close to Mars and were captured by its gravity.

     The Viking Orbiters and Landers exceeded by large margins
their design lifetimes of 120 and 90 days, respectively. The
first to fail was Viking Orbiter 2, which stopped operating on
July 24, 1978, when a leak depleted its attitude-control gas.
Viking Lander 2 operated until April 12, 1980, when it was shut
down because of battery degeneration. Viking Orbiter 1 quit on
August 7, 1980, when the last of its attitude-control gas was
used up. Viking Lander 1 ceased functioning on November 13, 1983.

     Despite the inconclusive results of the Viking biology
experiments, we know more about Mars than any other planet except
Earth. NASA's Mars Observer spacecraft, to be launched in
September 1992, will expand our knowledge of the martian
environment and lead to human exploration of the red planet. 
     
Asteroids

     The solar system has a large number of rocky and metallic
objects that are in orbit around the Sun but are too small to be
considered full-fledged planets. These objects are known as
asteroids or minor planets. Most, but not all, are found in a
band or belt between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter. Some have
orbits that cross Earth's path, and there is evidence that Earth
has been hit by asteroids in the past. One of the least eroded,
best preserved examples is the Barringer Meteor Crater near
Winslow, Arizona.

     Asteroids are material left over from the formation of the
solar system. One theory suggests that they are the remains of a
planet that was destroyed in a massive collision long ago. More
likely, asteroids are material that never coalesced into a
planet. In fact, if the estimated total mass of all asteroids was
gathered into a single object, the object would be only about
1,500 kilometers (932 miles) across -- less than half the
diameter of our Moon. 

     Thousands of asteroids have been identified from Earth. It
is estimated that 100,000 are bright enough to eventually be
photographed through Earth-based telescopes.

     Much of our understanding about asteroids comes from
examining pieces of space debris that fall to the surface of
Earth. Asteroids that are on a collision course with Earth are
called meteoroids. When a meteoroid strikes our atmosphere at
high velocity, friction causes this chunk of space matter to
incinerate in a streak of light known as a meteor. If the
meteoroid does not burn up completely, what's left strikes
Earth's surface and is called a meteorite. One of the best places
to look for meteorites is the ice cap of Antarctica.

     Of all the meteorites examined, 92.8 percent are composed of
silicate (stone), and 5.7 percent are composed of iron and
nickel; the rest are a mixture of the three materials. Stony
meteorites are the hardest to identify since they look very much
like terrestrial rocks.

     Since asteroids are material from the very early solar
system, scientists are interested in their composition.
Spacecraft that have flown through the asteroid belt have found
that the belt is really quite empty and that asteroids are
separated by very large distances.

     Current and future missions will fly by selected asteroids
for closer examination. The Galileo Orbiter, launched by NASA in
October 1989, will investigate main-belt asteroids on its way to
Jupiter. The Comet Rendezvous/Asteroid Flyby (CRAF) and Cassini
missions will also study these far-flung objects. Scheduled for
launch in the latter part of the 1990s, the CRAF and Cassini
missions are a collaborative project of NASA, the European Space
Agency and the federal space agencies of Germany and Italy, as
well as the United States Air Force and the Department of Energy.
One day, space factories will mine the asteroids for raw
materials.
     
Jupiter

     Beyond Mars and the asteroid belt, in the outer regions of
our solar system, lie the giant planets of Jupiter, Saturn,
Uranus and Neptune. In 1972, NASA dispatched the first of four
spacecraft slated to conduct the initial surveys of these
colossal worlds of gas and their moons of ice and rock. Jupiter
was the first port of call.

     Pioneer 10, which lifted off from Kennedy Space Center in
March 1972, was the first spacecraft to penetrate the asteroid
belt and travel to the outer regions of the solar system. In
December 1973, it returned the first close-up images of Jupiter,
flying within 132,252 kilometers (82,178 miles) of the planet's
banded cloud tops. Pioneer 11 followed a year later. Voyagers 1
and 2 were launched in the summer of 1977 and returned
spectacular photographs of Jupiter and its family of satellites
during flybys in 1979.

     These travelers found Jupiter to be a whirling ball of
liquid hydrogen and helium, topped with a colorful atmosphere
composed mostly of gaseous hydrogen and helium. Ammonia ice
crystals form white Jovian clouds. Sulfur compounds (and perhaps
phosphorus) may produce the brown and orange hues that
characterize Jupiter's atmosphere.

     It is likely that methane, ammonia, water and other gases
react to form organic molecules in the regions between the
planet's frigid cloud tops and the warmer hydrogen ocean lying
below. Because of Jupiter's atmospheric dynamics, however, these
organic compounds -- if they exist -- are probably short-lived.

     The Great Red Spot has been observed for centuries through
telescopes on Earth. This hurricane-like storm in Jupiter's
atmosphere is more than twice the size of our planet. As a
high-pressure region, the Great Red Spot spins in a direction
opposite to that of low-pressure storms on Jupiter; it is
surrounded by swirling currents that rotate around the spot and
are sometimes consumed by it. The Great Red Spot might be a
million years old.

     Our spacecraft detected lightning in Jupiter's upper
atmosphere and observed auroral emissions similar to Earth's
northern lights at the Jovian polar regions. Voyager 1 returned
the first images of a faint, narrow ring encircling Jupiter.

     Largest of the solar system's planets, Jupiter rotates at a
dizzying pace -- once every 9 hours 55 minutes 30 seconds. The
massive planet takes almost 12 Earth years to complete a journey
around the Sun. With 16 known moons, Jupiter is something of a
miniature solar system.

     A new mission to Jupiter -- the Galileo Project -- is under
way. After a six- year cruise that takes the Galileo Orbiter once
past Venus, twice past Earth and the Moon and once past two
asteroids, the spacecraft will drop an atmospheric probe into
Jupiter's cloud layers and relay data back to Earth. The Galileo
Orbiter will spend two years circling the planet and flying close
to Jupiter's large moons, exploring in detail what the two
Pioneers and two Voyagers revealed.
     
Galilean Satellites

     In 1610, Galileo Galilei aimed his telescope at Jupiter and
spotted four points of light orbiting the planet. For the first
time, humans had seen the moons of another world. In honor of
their discoverer, these four bodies would become known as the
Galilean satellites or moons. But Galileo might have happily
traded this honor for one look at the dazzling photographs
returned by the Voyager spacecraft as they flew past these
planet-sized satellites.

     One of the most remarkable findings of the Voyager mission
was the presence of active volcanoes on the Galilean moon Io.
Volcanic eruptions had never before been observed on a world
other than Earth. The Voyager cameras identified at least nine
active volcanoes on Io, with plumes of ejected material extending
as far as 280 kilometers (175 miles) above the moon's surface.

     Io's pizza-colored terrain, marked by orange and yellow
hues, is probably the result of sulfur-rich materials brought to
the surface by volcanic activity. Volcanic activity on this
satellite is the result of tidal flexing caused by the
gravitational tug-of-war between Io, Jupiter and the other three
Galilean moons.

     Europa, approximately the same size as our Moon, is the
brightest Galilean satellite. The moon's surface displays a
complex array of streaks, indicating the crust has been
fractured. Caught in a gravitational tug-of-war like Io, Europa
has been heated enough to cause its interior ice to melt --
apparently producing a liquid-water ocean. This ocean is covered
by an ice crust that has formed where water is exposed to the
cold of space. Europa's core is made of rock that sank to its
center.

     Like Europa, the other two Galilean moons -- Ganymede and
Callisto -- are worlds of ice and rock. Ganymede is the largest
satellite in the solar system -- larger than the planets Mercury
and Pluto. The satellite is composed of about 50 percent water or
ice and the rest rock. Ganymede's surface has areas of different
brightness, indicating that, in the past, material oozed out of
the moon's interior and was deposited at various locations on the
surface.

     Callisto, only slightly smaller than Ganymede, has the
lowest density of any Galilean satellite, suggesting that large
amounts of water are part of its composition. Callisto is the
most heavily cratered object in the solar system; no activity
during its history has erased old craters except more impacts.

     Detailed studies of all the Galilean satellites will be
performed by the Galileo Orbiter.
     
Saturn

     No planet in the solar system is adorned like Saturn. Its
exquisite ring system is unrivaled. Like Jupiter, Saturn is
composed mostly of hydrogen. But in contrast to the vivid colors
and wild turbulence found in Jovian clouds, Saturn's atmosphere
has a more subtle, butterscotch hue, and its markings are muted
by high-altitude haze. Given Saturn's somewhat placid-looking
appearance, scientists were surprised at the high-velocity
equatorial jet stream that blows some 1,770 kilometers (1,100
miles) per hour.

     Three American spacecraft have visited Saturn. Pioneer 11
sped by the planet and its moon Titan in September 1979,
returning the first close-up images. Voyager 1 followed in
November 1980, sending back breathtaking photographs that
revealed for the first time the complexities of Saturn's ring
system and moons. Voyager 2 flew by the planet and its moons in
August 1981.

     The rings are composed of countless low-density particles
orbiting individually around Saturn's equator at progressive
distances from the cloud tops. Analysis of spacecraft radio waves
passing through the rings showed that the particles vary widely
in size, ranging from dust to house-sized boulders. The rings are
bright because they are mostly ice and frosted rock.

     The rings might have resulted when a moon or a passing body
ventured too close to Saturn. The unlucky object would have been
torn apart by great tidal forces on its surface and in its
interior. Or the object may not have been fully formed to begin
with and disintegrated under the influence of Saturn's gravity. A
third possibility is that the object was shattered by collisions
with larger objects orbiting the planet.

     Unable either to form into a moon or to drift away from each
other, individual ring particles appear to be held in place by
the gravitational pull of Saturn and its satellites. These
complex gravitational interactions form the thousands of ringlets
that make up the major rings.

     Radio emissions quite similar to the static heard on an AM
car radio during an electrical storm were detected by the Voyager
spacecraft. These emissions are typical of lightning but are
believed to be coming from Saturn's ring system rather than its
atmosphere, where no lightning was observed. As they had at
Jupiter, the Voyagers saw a version of Earth's auroras near
Saturn's poles.

     The Voyagers discovered new moons and found several
satellites that share the same orbit. We learned that some moons
shepherd ring particles, maintaining Saturn's rings and the gaps
in the rings. Saturn's 18th moon was discovered in 1990 from
images taken by Voyager 2 in 1981. 

     Voyager 1 determined that Titan has a nitrogen-based
atmosphere with methane and argon -- one more like Earth's in
composition than the carbon dioxide atmospheres of Mars and
Venus. Titan's surface temperature of -179 degrees Celsius (-290
degrees Fahrenheit) implies that there might be water-ice islands
rising above oceans of ethane-methane liquid or sludge.
Unfortunately, Voyager's cameras could not penetrate the moon's
dense clouds.

     Continuing photochemistry from solar radiation may be
converting Titan's methane to ethane, acetylene and -- in
combination with nitrogen -- hydrogen cyanide. The latter
compound is a building block of amino acids. These conditions may
be similar to the atmospheric conditions of primeval Earth
between three and four billion years ago. However, Titan's
atmospheric temperature is believed to be too low to permit
progress beyond this stage of organic chemistry.

     The exploration of Saturn will continue with the Cassini
mission. The Cassini spacecraft will orbit the planet and will
also deploy a probe called Huygens, which will be dropped into
Titan's atmosphere and fall to the surface. Cassini will use the
probe as well as radar to peer through Titan's clouds and will
spend years examining the Saturnian system.
     
Uranus

     In January 1986, four and a half years after visiting
Saturn, Voyager 2 completed the first close-up survey of the
Uranian system. The brief flyby revealed more information about
Uranus and its retinue of icy moons than had been gleaned from
ground observations since the planet's discovery over two
centuries ago by the English astronomer William Herschel.

     Uranus, third largest of the planets, is an oddball of the
solar system. Unlike the other planets (with the exception of
Pluto), this giant lies tipped on its side with its north and
south poles alternately facing the sun during an 84-year swing
around the solar system. During Voyager 2's flyby, the south pole
faced the Sun. Uranus might have been knocked over when an
Earth-sized object collided with it early in the life of the
solar system.

     Voyager 2 found that Uranus' magnetic field does not follow
the usual north-south axis found on the other planets. Instead,
the field is tilted 60 degrees and offset from the planet's
center, a phenomenon that on Earth would be like having one
magnetic pole in New York City and the other in the city of
Djakarta, on the island of Java in Indonesia.

     Uranus' atmosphere consists mainly of hydrogen, with some 12
percent helium and small amounts of ammonia, methane and water
vapor. The planet's blue color occurs because methane in its
atmosphere absorbs all other colors. Wind speeds range up to 580
kilometers (360 miles) per hour, and temperatures near the cloud
tops average -221 degrees Celsius (-366 degrees Fahrenheit).

     Uranus' sunlit south pole is shrouded in a kind of
photochemical "smog" believed to be a combination of acetylene,
ethane and other sunlight-generated chemicals. Surrounding the
planet's atmosphere and extending thousands of kilometers into
space is a mysterious ultraviolet sheen known as "electroglow."

     Approximately 8,000 kilometers (5,000 miles) below Uranus'
cloud tops, there is thought to be a scalding ocean of water and
dissolved ammonia some 10,000 kilometers (6,200 miles) deep.
Beneath this ocean is an Earth-sized core of heavier materials.

     Voyager 2 discovered 10 new moons, 16-169 kilometers (10-105
miles) in diameter, orbiting Uranus. The five previously known --
Miranda, Ariel, Umbriel, Titania and Oberon -- range in size from
520 to 1,610 kilometers (323 to 1,000 miles) across. Representing
a geological showcase, these five moons are half-ice, half-rock
spheres that are cold and dark and show evidence of past
activity, including faulting and ice flows.

     The most remarkable of Uranus' moons is Miranda. Its surface
features high cliffs as well as canyons, crater-pocked plains and
winding valleys. The sharp variations in terrain suggest that,
after the moon formed, it was smashed apart by a collision with
another body -- an event not unusual in our solar system, which
contains many objects that have impact craters or are fragments
from large impacts. What is extraordinary is that Miranda
apparently reformed with some of the material that had been in
its interior exposed on its surface.

     Uranus was thought to have nine dark rings; Voyager 2 imaged
11. In contrast to Saturn's rings, which are composed of bright
particles, Uranus' rings are primarily made up of dark,
boulder-sized chunks.
     
Neptune

     Voyager 2 completed its 12-year tour of the solar system
with an investigation of Neptune and the planet's moons. On
August 25, 1989, the spacecraft swept to within 4,850 kilometers
(3,010 miles) of Neptune and then flew on to the moon Triton.
During the Neptune encounter it became clear that the planet's
atmosphere was more active than Uranus'. 

     Voyager 2 observed the Great Dark Spot, a circular storm the
size of Earth, in Neptune's atmosphere. Resembling Jupiter's
Great Red Spot, the storm spins counterclockwise and moves
westward at almost 1,200 kilometers (745 miles) per hour. Voyager
2 also noted a smaller dark spot and a fast-moving cloud dubbed
the "Scooter," as well as high-altitude clouds over the main
hydrogen and helium cloud deck. The highest wind speeds of any
planet were observed, up to 2,400 kilometers (1,500 miles) per
hour.

     Like the other giant planets, Neptune has a gaseous hydrogen
and helium upper layer over a liquid interior. The planet's core
contains a higher percentage of rock and metal than those of the
other gas giants. Neptune's distinctive blue appearance, like
Uranus' blue color, is due to atmospheric methane.

     Neptune's magnetic field is tilted relative to the planet's
spin axis and is not centered at the core. This phenomenon is
similar to Uranus' magnetic field and suggests that the fields of
the two giants are being generated in an area above the cores,
where the pressure is so great that liquid hydrogen assumes the
electrical properties of a metal. Earth's magnetic field, on the
other hand, is produced by its spinning metallic core and is only
slightly tilted and offset relative to its center.

     Voyager 2 also shed light on the mystery of Neptune's rings.
Observations from Earth indicated that there were arcs of
material in orbit around the giant planet. It was not clear how
Neptune could have arcs and how these could be kept from
spreading out into even, unclumped rings. Voyager 2 detected
these arcs, but they were, in fact, part of thin, complete rings.
A number of small moons could explain the arcs, but such bodies
were not spotted.

     Astronomers had identified the Neptunian moons Triton in
1846 and Nereid in 1949. Voyager 2 found six more. One of the new
moons -- Proteus -- is actually larger than Nereid, but since
Proteus orbits close to Neptune, it was lost in the planet's
glare for observers on Earth.

      Triton circles Neptune in a retrograde orbit in under six
days. Tidal forces on Triton are causing it to spiral slowly
towards the planet. In 10 to 100 million years (a short time in
astronomical terms), the moon will be so close that Neptunian
gravity will tear it apart, forming a spectacular ring to
accompany the planet's modest current rings.

     Triton's landscape is as strange and unexpected as those of
Io and Miranda. The moon has more rock than its counterparts at
Saturn and Uranus. Triton's mantle is probably composed of
water-ice, but the moon's crust is a thin veneer of nitrogen and
methane. The moon shows two dramatically different types of
terrain: the so-called "cantaloupe" terrain and a receding ice
cap. 

     Dark streaks appear on the ice cap. These streaks are the
fallout from geyser-like volcanic vents that shoot nitrogen gas
and dark, fine-grained particles to heights of 2 to 8 kilometers
(1 to 5 miles). Triton's thin atmosphere, only 1/70,000th as
thick as Earth's, has winds that carry the dark particles and
deposit them as streaks on the ice cap -- the coldest surface yet
found in the solar system (-235 degrees Celsius, -391 degrees
Fahrenheit). Triton might be more like Pluto than any other
object spacecraft have so far visited.
     
Pluto

     Pluto is the most distant of the planets, yet the
eccentricity of its orbit periodically carries it inside
Neptune's orbit, where it has been since 1979 and where it will
remain until March 1999. Pluto's orbit is also highly inclined --
tilted 17 degrees to the orbital plane of the other planets.

     Discovered in 1930, Pluto appears to be little more than a
celestial snowball. The planet's diameter is calculated to be
approximately 2,300 kilometers (1,430 miles), only two-thirds the
size of our Moon. Ground-based observations indicate that Pluto's
surface is covered with methane ice and that there is a thin
atmosphere that may freeze and fall to the surface as the planet
moves away from the Sun. Observations also show that Pluto's spin
axis is tipped by 122 degrees. 

     The planet has one known satellite, Charon, discovered in
1978. Charon's surface composition is different from Pluto's: the
moon appears to be covered with water-ice rather than methane
ice. Its orbit is gravitationally locked with Pluto, so both
bodies always keep the same hemisphere facing each other. Pluto's
and Charon's rotational period and Charon's period of revolution
are all 6.4 Earth days. 

     Although no spacecraft have ever visited Pluto, NASA is
currently exploring the possibility of such a mission.
     
Comets

     The outermost members of the solar system occasionally pay a
visit to the inner planets. As asteroids are the rocky and
metallic remnants of the formation of the solar system, comets
are the icy debris from that dim beginning and can survive only
far from the Sun. Most comet nuclei reside in the Oort Cloud, a
loose swarm of objects in a halo beyond the planets and reaching
perhaps halfway to the nearest star.

     Comet nuclei orbit in this frozen abyss until they are
gravitationally perturbed into new orbits that carry them close
to the Sun. As a nucleus falls inside the orbits of the outer
planets, the volatile elements of which it is made gradually
warm; by the time the nucleus enters the region of the inner
planets, these volatile elements are boiling. The nucleus itself
is irregular and only a few miles across, and is made principally
of water-ice with methane and ammonia -- materials very similar
to those composing the moons of the giant planets.

     As these materials boil off of the nucleus, they form a coma
or cloud-like "head" that can measure tens of thousands of
kilometers across. The coma grows as the comet gets closer to the
Sun. The stream of charged particles coming from the Sun pushes
on this cloud, blowing it back like a flag in the wind and giving
rise to the comet's "tails." Gases and ions are blown directly
back from the nucleus, but dust particles are pushed more slowly.
As the nucleus continues in its orbit, the dust particles are
left behind in a curved arc.

     Both the gas and dust tails point away from the Sun; in
effect, the comet chases its tails as it recedes from the Sun.
The tails can reach 150 million kilometers (93 million miles) in
length, but the total amount of material contained in this
dramatic display would fit in an ordinary suitcase. Comets --
from the Latin cometa, meaning "long-haired" -- are essentially
dramatic light shows.

     Some comets pass through the solar system only once, but
others have their orbits gravitationally modified by a close
encounter with one of the giant outer planets. These latter
visitors can enter closed elliptical orbits and repeatedly return
to the inner solar system.

     Halley's Comet is the most famous example of a relatively
short period comet, returning on an average of once every 76
years and orbiting from beyond Neptune to within Venus' orbit.
Confirmed sightings of the comet go back to 240 B.C. This regular
visitor to our solar system is named for Sir Edmond Halley,
because he plotted the comet's orbit and predicted its return,
based on earlier sightings and Newtonian laws of motion. His name
became part of astronomical lore when, in 1759, the comet
returned on schedule. Unfortunately, Sir Edmond did not live to
see it.

     A comet can be very prominent in the sky if it passes
comparatively close to Earth. Unfortunately, on its most recent
appearance, Halley's Comet passed no closer than 62.4 million
kilometers (38.8 million miles) from our world. The comet was
visible to the naked eye, especially for viewers in the southern
hemisphere, but it was not spectacular. Comets have been so
bright, on rare occasions, that they were visible during daytime.
Historically, comet sightings have been interpreted as bad omens
and have been artistically rendered as daggers in the sky.

     The Comet Rendezvous/Asteroid Flyby (CRAF) spacecraft will
become the first traveler to fly close to a comet nucleus and
remain in proximity to it as they both approach the Sun. CRAF
will observe the nucleus as it becomes active in the growing
sunlight and begins to have its lighter elements boil off and
form a coma and tails. Several spacecraft have flown by comets at
high speed; the first was NASA's International Cometary Explorer
in 1985. An armada of five spacecraft (two Japanese, two Soviet
and the Giotto spacecraft from the European Space Agency) flew by
Halley's Comet in 1986.
     
Conclusion

     Despite their efforts to peer across the vast distances of
space through an obscuring atmosphere, scientists of the past had
only one body they could study closely -- Earth. But since 1959,
spaceflight through the solar system has lifted the veil on our
neighbors in space. 

     We have learned more about our solar system and its members
than anyone had in the previous thousands of years. Our automated
spacecraft have traveled to the Moon and to all the planets
beyond our world except Pluto; they have observed moons as large
as small planets, flown by comets and sampled the solar
environment. Astronomy books now include detailed pictures of
bodies that were only smudges in the largest telescopes for
generations. We are lucky to be alive now to see these strange
and beautiful places and objects.

     The knowledge gained from our journeys through the solar
system has redefined traditional Earth sciences like geology and
meteorology and spawned an entirely new discipline called
comparative planetology. By studying the geology of planets,
moons, asteroids and comets, and comparing differences and
similarities, we are learning more about the origin and history
of these bodies and the solar system as a whole.

     We are also gaining insight into Earth's complex weather
systems. By seeing how weather is shaped on other worlds and by
investigating the Sun's activity and its influence throughout the
solar system, we can better understand climatic conditions and
processes on Earth.

     We will continue to learn and benefit as our automated
spacecraft explore our neighborhood in space. One current mission
is mapping Venus; others are flying between worlds and will reach
the Sun and Jupiter after complex trajectory adjustments. Future
missions are planned for Mars, Saturn, a comet and the asteroid
belt.

     We can also look forward to the time when humans will once
again set foot on an alien world. Although astronauts have not
been back to the Moon since December 1972, plans are being
formulated for our return to the lunar landscape and for the
human exploration of Mars and even the establishment of martian
outposts. One day, taking a holiday may mean spending a week at a
lunar base or a martian colony!

It should be noted that the US benefitted not only from German science and
technology after WW2 but also from British science and technology. From the
discovery and manufacture of penicillin to jet engines, swing wing aircraft,
the hovercraft etc etc. all were shipped lock-stick-and-barel across the
Atlantic. We still are suffering from this sort of thing because of some of the
more parochial aspects of US procurement policy. Meiko, a British 
parallel computer company, for example, has now moved most of its facilities to
the US since that was the only way it could sell stuff over there.
                                                                  
Here now some initial references; best regards - Walter.
@InProceedings{Keirouz:et:al:90,
  author = 	"Walid Keirouz and Jahir Pabon and Robert Young",
  title = 	"{Integrating parametric geometry, features, and
		 variational modeling for conceptual design}",
  booktitle = 	"International Conference on Design Theory and Methodology",
  year = 	"1990",
  editor = 	"{J.\ R.}\ Rinderle",
  pages = 	"1--9",
  organization = 	"American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME)",
  OPTpublisher = 	"",
  OPTaddress = 	"",
  OPTmonth = 	"",
  note = 	"Proceedings"
}

@InProceedings{Yamaguchi:Kimura:90,
  author = 	"Yasushi Yamaguchi and Fumihiko Kimura",
  title = 	"{A constraint modeling system for variational geometry}",
  booktitle = 	"{Geometric modeling for product engineering}",
  editor = 	"{Michael J.}\ Wozny and {J.\ U.}\ Turner and {K.}\ Preiss",
  pages = 	"221--233",
  organization = 	"IFIP",
  publisher = 	"Elsevier Science Publishers B.V.\ (North-Holland),
		 Amsterdam, The Netherlands",
  note = 	"Selected and Expanded Papers form the IFIP WG 5.2/NSF
		 Working Conference on Geometric Modeling, Rensselaerville, NY, U.S.A.,
		 18--22 September 1988"
}

@InProceedings{Chung:et:al:88,
  author = 	"{Jack C.\ H.}\ Chung and {Joseph W.}\ Klahs
		 and {Robert L.}\ Cook and Thijs Sluiter",
  title = 	"{Implementation issues in variational geometry and
		 constraint management}",
  booktitle = 	"Third International Conference on
       CAD/CAM, Robotics and Factories of the Future (CARS and FOF'88)",
  year = 	"1988",
  OPTeditor = 	"",
  OPTpages = 	"",
  OPTorganization = 	"",
  address = 	"Detroit, Michigan, USA",
  month = 	" August 14--17,",
  note = 	"Proceedings, probably: Springer-Verlag,
		 Berlin/Heidelberg, 1989"
}

@Article{Kimura:et:al:86,
  author = 	"Fumihiko Kimura and Hiromasa Suzuki and Toshio Sata",
  title = 	"{Variational Product Design by Constraint Propagation
		 and Satisfaction in Product Modelling}",
  journal = 	"Annals of the CIRP",
  year = 	"1986",
  volume = 	"35",
  number = 	"1",
  pages = 	"75--78",
  note = 	"(probably) International Institution for Production Engineering Research"
}

@Article{Kimura:et:al:87,
  author = 	"{F.}\ Kimura and {H.}\ Suzuki and {H.}\ Ando and {T.}\ Sato and
		 {A.}\ Kinosada",
  title = 	"{Variational Geometry Based on Logical Constraints
		 and its Applications to Product Modelling}",
  year = 	"1987",
  volume = 	"36",
  pages = 	"65--68",

@InProceedings{Chung:Schussel:89,
  author = 	"{Jack C.H.}\ Chung and {Martin D.}\ Schussel",
  title = 	"{Comparison of Variational and Parametric Design}",
  booktitle = 	"Autofact '89",
  year = 	"1989",
  pages = 	"5-27 -- 5-44",
  month = 	"October 30 -- November 2,",
  note = 	"Conference Proceedings"
}

@Article{Pabon:et:al:92,
  author = 	"Jahir Pabon and Robert Young and Walid Keirouz",
  title = 	"{Integrating Parametric Geometry, Features, and
		 Variational Modeling for Conceptual Design}",
  journal = 	"International Journal of Systems Automation: Research
		 and Applications (SARA)",
  year = 	"1992",
  volume = 	"2",
  OPTnumber = 	"",
  pages = 	"17--36",
  OPTnote = 	""
}

@Article{Kondo:90,
  author = 	"Koichi Kondo",
  title = 	"{PIGMOD: parametric and interactive geometric
		 modeller for mechanical design}",
  journal = 	"CAD, computer-aided design",
  volume = 	"22",
  number = 	"10",
  pages = 	"633--644",
  month = 	"december",
  note = 	"Butterworth-Heinemann Ltd"
}

@InProceedings{Zalik:et:al:92a,
  author = 	"Borut {\v{Z}}alik and Nikola Guid and Aleksander Vesel",
  title = 	"{Parametric Design Using Constraint Description Graph}", 
  booktitle = 	"CAD '92, Neue Konzepte zur Realisierung
		 anwendungsorientierter CAD-Systeme",
  editor = 	"{Frank-Lothar} Krause and Detlev Ruland and Helmut Jansen",
  pages = 	"329--344",
  publisher = 	"Informatik aktuell, Springer-Verlag, Berlin/Heidelberg",
  month = 	"14./15.\ Mai",
  note = 	"GI-Fachtagung, Berlin"
}

From the Pluto Fast Flyby Instrument definition research anouncemnet,
the instrument payload constraints are:
    Mass allocation -  7 kilograms (15.4 lbs)
    Power allocation - 6 watts
    Required instruments:
	Visible imaging system (1024x1024 CCD, 750 mm fl, f/10 optics)
	IR mapping spectrometer (256x256 HgCdTe array, 0.3% energy resolution)
	UV spectrometer (55-200 nm, 0.5 nm resolution)
	Radio science (ultrastable oscilator incorporated in telecom system)
		ultrastable means 10^-14.

This doesn't leave much room for payloads which are totally unrelated
to the  mission of the spacecraft.  In addition, the power will come
from a radioisotope thermal generator, and the whole space craft will
be about 2 feet in diameter, with no booms, which means there will be
strong gamma-lines from Pu-239 and associated schmutz in the
background, which tends to reduce sensitivity somewhat.

It would still be nice, and our group here at Goddard is looking
in to it.

Well, yes, but that belongs in the other group, there is a interpretation
found for everything. However, allowing any form of interpretation reduces
the information of the text so interprteted to zero.
 
By the way, I have checked the quote and I think the lines preceding those
quoted above are more interesting:
 
   21:32 where mountains are set on earth in order to immobilize the earth.
   21:33 where the skies (heavens?) are referred to as well supported.
 
the lines given above are  21:34 after my edition.
 
Hi,

I'm looking for a program which is able to display 24 bits
images. We are using a Sun Sparc equipped with Parallax
graphics board running X11.

	That is not an "atheism mythology" in any sense of the word.
"Religious paradoy" would be significantly more appropriate.

	The 2nd part is rendered null and void by the simple fact that I
do know several "strong" atheists. I am sure that others do. I myself am
"strong" in the sense that I find the standard concept of God without any
meaning. Any attempt to bring meaning either results in the destruction of 
the viability of language, or in internal self contradiction. 

	The concept of strong atheism is not just a whimsical fantasy. They, 
and I, exist.

	Your strawman is pointless and weak.

---

Private note to Jennifer Fakult.

        "This post may contain one or more of the following:
         sarcasm, cycnicism, irony, or humor. Please be aware 
         of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be 
         confused and/or thrown for a loop. If in doubt, assume
         all of the above.

No, Dave, and as an anthropologist I take great umbrage with this 
misrepresentation.  I sense that it is you that has made the jump from creation
(science) to religion (see above).  I have characterized science/*creation 
science* as rationalism/nonsense, and that it is.  When people promote their 
religious beliefs as science they become nonsense.  Kept where they belong 
they are meaningful and useful, as virtually any anthropologists will tell you,
and as I have said several times in this group.  And it works the other way, 
too, and I have repeatedly said so.  Never have I said or meant anything 
different, here or elsewhere, and I don't think my communication skills betray
me.  Nor do I presume to offend people's spiritual sensibilities, as
I would hope others would not disparage mine.

When they're not important, yes.  All scientists do.  Otherwise science would
never get anywhere.

Hang about -- not atomic interactions in general.  Just specific ones which
are deemed unimportant.  Like gravitational interactions between ions, which
are so small they're drowned out by electrostatic effects, and so on.

Oh, probably.  They still make people memorize equations and IR spectra. 
Maybe in a few decades they'll discover the revolutionary "data book"
technique.

But if He/She did you would probably consider it rape.  

Obviously there are many Christians who have tried and do believe. So .. ?

No one asks you to swallow everything, in fact Jesus warns against it.   But let
me ask you a question.  Do you beleive what you learn in history class, or for
that matter anything in school.  I mean it's just what other people have told
you and you don't want to swallow what others say. right ... ?

The life , death, and resurection of Christ is documented historical fact.  As much
as anything else you learn.  How do you choose what to believe and what not to?
I could argue that George Washington is a myth.  He never lived because I don't
have any proof except what I am told.   However all the major events of the life
of Jesus Christ were fortold hundreds of years before him.  Neat trick uh?

[edited]

Well for starters, why use rle files?  You might have a specific program that
needs them, OK, but I tend to convert straight to jpeg format, thus a 2.4meg
24bit targa file becomes a ~80k or less 24bit jpeg.

The latest versions of XV (2.2.1 ?) and xloadimage (3.03) both handle jpeg files.
And the best way to convert to jpeg is with the c/djpeg suit.  Even at 90%
quality (you can't see the difference) the jpeg is way smaller than anything
else even an 8bit gif!

Later'ish
Craig

I also heard the Romans had a large Solar festival on this day because this
day, about 3 days after the Winter Solstice, was when you could notice a
change in the shadows and be sure that the Sun was indeed returning. In fact,
I remember the latin phrase Natalis Solis Invicti (sp!) associated here.

I can't say for certain when Saturnalia was, since I can't locate my Master
Holiday List. I think it was 2 weeks or so however.

I have a little answer:

See Foley, van Dam, Feiner, and Hughes, _Computer Graphics: Principles
and Practice, Second Edition_.

[If people would *read* this book, 75 percent of the questions in this
froup would disappear overnight...]

							spl

Well, I'll avoid your question for now (got some learnin' to do) with a
promise to come back with more info when I can find it.  I _do_ know that
BATSE is the primary instrument in the development of the all-sky map of
long-term sources.  Given that fact, and the spacecraft attitude knowledge
of approx. 2 arcmin, we might be able to figure out how well BATSE can
determine the location (rotational) of a Gamma Ray burster from knowledge
of the all-sky map's accuracy.  PR material for the other three instruments
give accuracies on the order of "fractions of a degree", if that's 
any help.

Speaking of GRO, the net-world probably was happy to see that the preps
for orbit adjust appear to be going well.  Our branch guy who's helping
out says that things have gone smoothly with the iso-valve preps and the
burns will take place in mid-June.

Anyway, I'm off to find out more.  'Be back when I get some info.

If you brighten up the dark part of CV043015.GIF with your viewer you 
will see two other objects near the upper left part of the moon.
One is actually between the weather satellite and the moon.

What fraction of the NASA workforce is civil servant 
as opposed to contractor and what are the rules on
reduction in work force for civil servants?

eg, if say the shuttle program is terminated, how
much is payroll reduced and how?

Do you know of the world-wide-web?  This is a global hypertext (well, 
hypermedia) network running on the internet.  One of the nice things
about it is that is understands and incorporates virtually all of the
other systems being used, like WAIS, Gopher, FTP, Archie, etc.  It
is usually quite easy to add existing resources to the web.

If you'd like to explore, I'd suggest getting the XMosaic program,
written at the NCSA.  It's an X-windows web browser, and is pretty
slick.  It can understand and cope with more than text: gif, jpeg, mpeg,
audio, etc.  There are other browsers, including a text-mode browser
for people stuck on a text terminal, but I'm most familliar with mosaic.

Under the page "The World-Wide Web Virtual Library: Subject Catalogue"
(this is available under the Documents menu in mosaic, or by any
browser via the URL 
http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/DataSources/bySubject/Overview.html )
there is a subject "Space Science."  Currently this points to a
page under construction, with only the NASA JPL FTP archive.  I've
volunteered to take over this page, and in fact I have a replacement
with all sorts of information pointers (mostly gleaned from the
sci.space FAQ).  As soon as the overworked "Subject Catalogue" 
maintainer switches the "Space Science" pointer, it'll be visible.

I'll post a short note when this happens.

-- 
Frederick G. M. Roeber | CERN -- European Center for Nuclear Research
e-mail: roeber@cern.ch or roeber@caltech.edu | work: +41 22 767 31 80
r-mail: CERN/PPE, 1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland | home: +33 50 20 82 99

What about the land mines which have already been mentioned?

Oh, very neat.  Dismiss everything I say unless I can prove beyond a shadow
of a doubt something which you yourself admit I can never prove to your
satisfaction.  Thanks, I'll stick to squaring circles.

I'd hardly call the current Pluto Fast Flyby proposal "too large" (if the
new technology insertion currently taking place succeeds, the S/C mass will
drop to 110-120 kg) or "too expensive" ($400 million [FY92 $] for two S/C),
especially when compared to other NASA planetary missions.

This proposal would work only if your various targets are relaively nearby and
the require minimal delta-v from the mother ship.  A mission to the main belt
might be one possibility for such a mission -- I recall a paper being presented
at an AIAA deisgn conference in Irvine in February where such a proposed
spacecraft was designed by some grad students at UT Austin (I think).  Four
mini-spacecraft would detatch from the main S/C, each visiting a seperate
asteroid and then returning to the main S/C.  After analysis, the main S/C
would then be targeted for the most "interesting" object for further study.

Now, if I could only *find* that paper...  =)

God ItSelf appeared to me and spoke to me, saying "Rawlins has been listening to
a deamon, and has been taken in by its satanic words!"

According to my *Glossary of Astronomy and Astrophysics*:
"parsec (abbreviation for parallax second) 	The distance at which
one astronomical unit subtends an angle of 1 second of arc.  1 pc =
206,265 AU = 3.086 X 10^13 km = 3.26 lt-yr."

George

About three weeks ago on the SPACE list, someone was quoting a source on the
relative traffic and rankings of this listserv.  A figure of 88th in
traffic(?) was given.  Unfortunately I did not clip the message and I would
like to know the source of the rankings list.  If anybody still has that
discussion on their disk or knows the source (or is the poster himself!)
I'd appreciate getting that reference.  Being on the road I have temporarily
unsubscribed to the list to cut down mail box stuffing <g> so please reply
via e-mail to lek@aip.org OR 71160.2356@compuserve.com or I won't get your
answer!

If the children are not being fed, whose fault is that?  You and I
have plenty of food on our tables while others starve.  Why is that?
God gave us this earth to manage.  I don't think we're doing a very
good job of it.  The only consolation I have for those suffering
children is that they will be received into the kingdom of Heaven
where they will never thirst and never hunger again.

Peace be with you,

The problem is that the process is inherently complicated ! The IJG's code is
pretty good if you ask me, and I have watched it go through many many cycles of
revision.

Try getting a good book on the subject, that will explain the algorithms.

Specifically "JPEG Still Image Compression Standard" by Pennebaker & Mitchell,
VNR 1993, ISBN 0-442-01272-1.

BTW. I presume your comment about "good" code wasn't meant to sound as offensive
as it does.

Robot
-----

Xgobi
-----

  cd general

PGPLOT
------

GGRAPH
------

epiGRAPH
--------

        Hungary
        ph     2017760

Athena Plotter Widget set
-------------------------
  
  This version V6.0 is based on Gregory Bond's version V5-beta. Added
  some stuff for scientific graphs, i.e. log axes, free scalable axes,
  XY-lineplots and some more, and re-added plotter callbacks from V4, e.g.
  to request the current pointer position, or to cut off a rectangle from the
  plotting area for zooming-in. Version V6.0 has a log of bugs fixed and a
  log of improvements against V6-beta. Additionally I did some other
  changes/extensions, besides 
  
  -     Origin and frame lines for axes.
  -     Subgrid lines on subtic positions.
  -     Line plots in different line types (lines, points, lines+points,
   impulses, lines+impulses, steps, bars), line styles (solid, dotted,
   dashed, dot-dashed) and marker types for data points.
  -     Legend at the right or left hand side of the plot.
  -     Optional drawing to a pixmap instead of a window.
  -     Layout callback for aligning axis positions when using
   multiple plotters in one application.
  
  Available at export.lcs.mit.edu, directory contrib/plotter

SciPlot
-------
  SciPlot is a scientific 2D plotting and manipulation program. 
  For the NeXT (requires NeXTStep 3.0), and it's shareware.

  Features:
  ASCII import and export;  EPS export; copy, cut, paste with data buffer;
  free number of data points, data buffer, and document window;
  selective open and save ; plotting in many styles; automatic legend;
  subviews; linear and logarithmic axes; two different axes; text and graphic;
  color support; zoom; normalizing and moving; axis conversions;
  free hand data manipulations (cut, edit, move, etc.); data editor; sorting
  of data; absolute,relative, and free defined error bars;
  calculating with buffers (+, -, *, / ); background subtractions
  (linear,shirley,tougaard, bezier); integration and relative integration;
  fitting of one or more free defined functions; linear regression;
  calculations (+, -, *, /, sin, cos, log, etc.); function generator;
  spline interpolation; least square smooth and FFT smooth; differentiation;
  FFT; ESCA calculations and database; .. and something more 

  You can find it on:
  ftp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.7] : /pub/NeXT/science/SciPlot3.1.tar.Z

  Author:
  Michael Wesemann
  Scillerstr. 73,1000 Berlin 12, Germany   
  mike@fiasko.rz-berlin.mpg.de

PLPLOT
------
  PLPLOT is a scientific plotting package for many systems, small (micro)
  and large (super) alike.  Despite its small size and quickness,
  it has enough power to satisfy most users, including:
  standard x-y plots, semilog plots, log-log plots, contour plots, 3D plots,
  mesh plots, bar charts and pie charts.  Multiple graphs (of the same or
  different sizes) may be placed on a single page with multiple lines in each
  graph.  Different line styles, widths and colors are supported.  A virtually
  infinite number of distinct area fill patterns may be used.  There are
  almost 1000 characters in the extended character set.  This includes four
  different fonts, the Greek alphabet and a host of mathematical, musical, and
  other symbols.  The fonts can be scaled to any size for various effects.
  Many different output device drivers are available (system dependent),
  including a portable metafile format and renderer.
  
  Freely available (but copyrighted) via anonymous FTP on
  hagar.ph.utexas.edu, directory pub/plplot
  
  At present (v. 4.13), PLPLOT is known to work on the following systems:
  
  Unix:   SunOS, A/IX, HP-UX, Unicos, DG/UX, Ultrix
  Other platforms: VMS, Amiga/Exec, MS-DOS, OS/2, NeXT
  
  Authors: Many. The main supporters are:
  
  Maurice LeBrun <mjl@fusion.ph.utexas.edu>: PLPLOT kernel and the metafile,
     xterm, xwindow, tektronix, and Amiga drivers.
  Geoff Furnish <furnish@fusion.ph.utexas.edu>: MS-DOS and OS/2 drivers
  Tony Richardson <amr@egr.duke.edu>: PLPLOT on the NeXT

SuperMongo
  2-D plotting package at CMU, filename ~re00/tmp/SM.2.1.0.tar.Z
  (probably under the ftp.cmu.edu or andrew.cmu.edu machines?)

GLE
---
  GLE is a high quality graphics package for scientists.  It runs on a
  variety of platforms (PCs, VAXes, and Unix) with drivers for XWindows,
  REGIS, TEK4010, PC graphics cards, VT100s, HP plotters, Postscript
  printers, Epson-compatible printers and Laserjet/Paintjet printers.  It
  provides LaTEX quality fonts, as well as full support for Postscript
  fonts.  The graphing module provides full control over all features of
  graphs.  The graphics primitives include user-defined subroutines for
  complex pictures and diagrams.

  Accompanying utilities include Surface (for hidden line surface
  plotting), Contour (for contour plots), Manip (for manipulation of
  columnar data files), and Fitls (for fitting arbitrary equations to
  data).

+ Available via anon. FTP at these places:
+
+ PC gle: SIMTEL, wuarchive.wustl.edu, and other mirrors, msdos/graphics/gle*.*
+ UNIX gle: zephyr.grace.cri.nz (131.203.1.5), pub/gle/unix
+ VMS gle: zephyr.grace.cri.nz (131.203.1.5), pub/gle/vms

  Mailing list: GLEList. Send a message to

  listserver@tbone.biol.scarolina.edu, with a message boyd containing

  sub glelist "Your Name"
  
  maintainer: Dean Pentcheff <dean2@tbone.biol.scarolina.edu>

IMDISP
------

LabVIEW 2
---------

  modules.

NIH IMAGE
---------

PhotoMac
--------

Dimple
------

Enhance
-------

IPLab
-----

MAP II
------

IMAGE
-----
  image v3.

CCD
---

ERDAS
-----

RSVGA
-----

PC Vista
--------

  software. 

MIRAGE
------

MAXEN386
--------

ALV
---

AIPS
----

LABOimage
---------

Figaro
------

KHOROS
------

Vista
-----

DISIMP
------

  modules.

  ratioing.

HIPS
----

MIRA
----

  Box 44162

Yes, one does.  I examined a critique of the Book of Romans by
I think, Benjamin Franklin once, a Deist.  I found it amazing that
Benjamin Franklin missed the whole boat.   I also have the writings
on Thomas Jefferson sitting on my shelf, and it is amazing how
much he missed.  I have studied Plato's Theory of Forms and 
Aristotelian Hylomorphesism.  What a pile of junk.  Jesus
makes Plato and Aristotle look like kindergardeners.  Psychology,
the id, ego, superego by Freud?  Elements of truth, but Jesus
explained it far better and gave reasons.

Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson are mere men.  They
can screw up the Bible just as well as any man.  I do not put these
men on a pedestal.  And if I remember T.J.'s autobiography correctly,
he thought Thomas Paine was the most unread man he ever met.

Here's some more circular reasoning to you.  Paul says to the Corinthians
that "that the gospel will be foolishness to the world, because it is 
spiritually discerned."  And so, people without the spirit of God haven't a
clue to what the Bible is saying.   From your point of view, that's
incredibly circular and convenient.   To me, it is mysteriously and supernaturally
bizarre.   I can see it, but you can't.  This is not arrogance on
my part.  Trust me.  It is as bizarre to you as it is to me.  But nonetheless,
it is a truth, explainable or not.

Are any of you color blind to red and green?  I am.  Remember those
dot tests they do at the optomologist's?  They put pictures in front
of you and you are supposed to identify the pattern in the dots?  If
your eyes are perfectly normal, you can see letters or numerals
embedded in the dots.  They are a slightly different color and stand
out from the background.  But if you are color blind to red and green,
you will not see anything but gray-shaded dots.  That is how a dot
test appears to me.  I do not see a pattern at all.

A normal seeing person will see the patterns.  And to him, I seem like a
total anomaly.  To him, I appear as if I am missing the universe or something.
It is hard for him to understand why I can't see anything
that to him is as plain as day.

That it what it is like with the Bible, the Word of God, to the believer.
The believer can see the meaning in the words.  I can see how the patterns
fit together.  There is such depth.  Such consistency.   But then, on the
other hand, I notice the non-believer.   He doesn't see it.  He thinks
I am weird because he thinks I am seeing things.   I look at him, and
say, "No, you are weird.  You do not see."   Then it is time for a sanity
check.  I go to another Christian and say, "Do you see this."  And
they go, "Yes.  It is an "X"".  And I say, "Thank God, I see the "X"
too."

It is truly the strangest thing.   It adds a little extra dimension to
the phrase, 

         "He will make the blind see, and the deaf hear."

Much of the Haight-Ashbury crowd probably had pre-existing 
dissatisfactions with their lives -- dissatisfactions ameliorated by
mumbo-jumbo about 'new realities'. The only change I experienced after 
LSD was to gain the knowledge that I didn't enjoy how LSD twisted my
perception.
--

Looking for a TIFF/EPS of a DNA Helix.  E-mail any auggestions, please.

   As opposed to Universal or Catholic or "FourSquare Gosple". I think that
   the Greek Orthodox Church would take high offense at your misuse of the
   word. Your version of Christianity is neither mainstream nor bible derived
   you make claims of bible-centricity that are not derivable soley from the
   Bible.  About six-seven months ago, you claimed that your primary objection
   to the LDS was that "our" doctrine was not bible-derived, And now this
   (and other) claims can be shown, are also not bible interpeting bible.

	Simple truths... oh for example?   

       "paradise exalted to heaven"

	paradise wasn't equal to heaven and _now_ it is? Yet you claim that
 	peeple can not be exalted to heaven, nicht wahr?

	When I read the story, I found that  "Abraham's Bosom" wasn't so much
	a place, but somewhere the rich man could see and talk to Abraham?

	Gee this is fairly close to what the LDS call spirit prison, and what
        you have called false doctrine...

    [ vers deleted reproduced below quoted from the SunSpot Gopher Archive ]

   This part is _not_ supported from scripture, nor does it support your
   claim that the "paradise" where Christ descended was exalted.

   Making such claims on this little "evidence" ignores the witness of the
   scripture

   Using this to argue that paradise or spirit prison, is now changed from
   a Pre-Easter postion to post-easter by God postion is not supportable.
 
   Makeing such a claim requires more evidence than you have given here...

  Yes, and your reasons are in general not supported by any direct reading
  of the scriptures. You have demonstrated that you claims to scriptural 
  "proof" need to be cross-checked. The referencs that you supply often do
  not support your postion, if they are read in the context of the scripture.

	How about that those who have been in paradise, and have accepted
	the gosple will be judged of Jesus Christ, and then return to the
	presence of God. Is that somehow different from your expressed view
	that the paradise spoken of (or "Abraham's Bosom")
	Should we go back and discuss your view on why the Angle of the Lord
	is the Lord again... ;-)

I'm curious to know if Christians ever read books based on critique
on the religion, classical text such as "Age of Reason" by Paine,
or "The Myth Maker" by Jacobi. Sometimes it is good to know your
enemy, and if you want to do serious research you have to understand
both sides, and not solely the one and only right one.

Cheers,
Kent

   So Rick, why not read the Bible for yourself?  It is written in plain
   english.  Decide for yourself.   

Can anyone around here point me to information regarding STEREOSCOPIC images?
I believe I saw some at a show room in Texas (Lone Star Illusions)  and 
they were amazing.  I've now heard that they were created with a simple 
graphic program.  Does anyone have any of these images digitized??  
I really want to find a out as much as I can..

I just donwloaded a *.bin file from a unix machine which is
supposed to be converted to a MAC format. Does anyone know 
what I need to do to this file to get it into any Dos, Mac
or Unix readable format. Someone mentioned fetch on the unix
machine - is this correct? Could someone explain the .bin
format a little?

Thanks,

Elizabeth
-- 

[A lot of interesting stuff about gopher - deleted]

I've heard of it but lost the intro posting that came out a while back -
could you post it again?  I think it's of general interest.

Ben

 I have a copy of 'The Earth-From Space' on my wall that I purchased
from Space Shots, Inc. (LA, CA  (800) 272-2779).  As printed on the
poster, the image was created by Tom Van Sant and the GeoSphere Project.
The image IS copyrighted, so I doubt that you'll find it legally in
the public domain.  Part of the proceeds from the sale of the image go to the 
GeoSphere Project (an environmental education thing), and the cost is
nominal, so crack a 20 and buy one!  Also, I don't think it's always
safe to assume that just because the government 'funded' a project, any
products will be provided for free.  Many government agencies (NASA, NOAA)
and some private groups (National Geographic) provided assistance to the
GeoSphere Project.  This collaboration seems to be mostly oriented to
educating the public, rather than pure research.

This is, shall we say, an overly-broad statement.  In particular, are you
referring to the native American culture that existed in 1400, or the one
that existed in 1800?  (Simplify things by assuming we're talking about
the eastern US rather than the whole continent.)  Given that those were
*radically* different cultures, which one are you referring to?

Note that the pre-Columbian native Americans, east of the Mississippi,
did all of these things.  (Well, maybe not "on Sunday", but they did
have organized religions, not to mention cities and governments.)  If
you are judging the native Americans by the tribal culture that existed
in 1800, you might want to read an account of the De Soto expedition
to find out what pre-Columbian native American culture, at least in the
more civilized parts of the continent, was like.

In <1993Apr24.214843.10940@midway.uchicago.edu> eeb1@quads.uchicago.edu

If the ONLY people proposing a "moment of silence" are doing so as a
sham to sneak in prayers, then it MUST be opposed.  What the HELL have
prayers to do with public schooling?  [I ask this question as a devout
Christian.]

Their kids can bloody-well pray any God-damned time they WANT to.  And
nothing, on heaven or earth, in government or the principal's office,
can prevent or in any other way deal with their doing so.  *Especially*
if the prayer is silent (as bursting out into the "Shema Yisrael" or
some other prayer *might* be construed as disruptive if audible :-))
No one ever prevented ME from praying in public school!  They hardly
even prevented me from masturbating in study hall.

I should have thought better of someone posting from a UChicago address.
How can you manage to say such nonsense without shame?

Muslim students might have a complaint, if they are prevented from setting
out their rugs and doing the proper ablutions before prayer at the times
specified in the Qu'ran.  Jews would probably like the opportunity to daven
with tefillim and whatever else *they* require, at *their* appropriate times.
I do not see THEM complaining (though Muslims and Jews have a case that no
Christian I have ever heard has been able to make.)

The "Christian" insistence on a PUBLIC, UNIVERSAL, ENFORCED "moment of
prayer^H^H^H^H^H^Hsilence" is nothing but the Inquisition "naturalized"
into the American context.  It is offensive to the Gospel of Christ.

: I have a little question:
: 
: I need to convert RGB-coded (Red-Green-Blue) colors into HVS-coded
: (Hue-Value-Saturnation) colors. Does anyone know which formulas to
: use?

Lets see if I have this right... HSV == HSB == HSL ... and none of those
are the same as HLS.  Hopefully, HVS is just a transposition of HSV, and
not yet another color model... 

The following code should do the HSV (HSL) coding (I haven't tried it yet)
(Thanks to bultman@dgw.rws.nl)

Another possibility is /mirrors/msdos/graphics/graphgem.zip on
wuarchive.wustl.edu.

Bill Neisius
bill@solaria.hac.com

The following code is from the starbase (HP) manual:
(all coordinates noralised at 0-1 interval)

     hsl_to_rgb(hue, saturation, luminosity, red, green, blue)
     float   hue, saturation, luminosity;    /* input in HSL */
     float   *red, *green, *blue;            /* output in RGB */
     {
         float       frac, lx, ly, lz;       /* temporaries */

         hue = 6 * hue;
         frac = hue - (int) hue;
         lx = luminosity * (1 - saturation);
         ly = luminosity * (1 - saturation * frac);
         lz = luminosity * (1 - saturation * (1 - frac));
 
         switch ((int) hue) {
             case 0: case 6:
                 *red = luminosity; *green = lz; *blue = lx; break;
             case 1:
                 *red = ly; *green = luminosity; *blue = lx; break;
             case 2:
                 *red = lx; *green = luminosity; *blue = lz; break;
             case 3:
                 *red = lx; *green = ly; *blue = luminosity; break;
             case 4:
                 *red = lz; *green = lx; *blue = luminosity; break;
             case 5:
                 *red = luminosity; *green = lx; *blue = ly; break;
         }
     }
     /******************************************************************************/
     rgb_to_hsl(red, green, blue, hue, saturation, luminosity)
     #define max(a, b, c)    ((a>b?a:b)>c?(a>b?a:b):c)
     #define min(a, b, c)    ((a<b?a:b)<c?(a<b?a:b):c)
     float   red, green, blue;               /* input in RGB */
     float   *hue, *saturation, *luminosity; /* output in HSL */
     {
         float       x, tempr, tempg, tempb; /* temporary values */

Perhaps it's prophetic that the week "Where are they now?" appears and
I can claim to be a still-active old-timer, my news software gets bit
rot and ships outgoing articles into a deep hole somewhere...  Anyway,
here's a repost:

These days you don't have to fall far behind... Last Monday
(admittedly after a long weekend, but...) I had 800+ messages just in
those few days.  Aside from a hiatus while changing jobs last Fall
I've been here since 1990.

Hell, Norway?  The rubber room at the funny farm?  Seminary?  It is
not given to us to know...

Um, I think you and the Bible are the ones inside the wall.  There's a
really wonderful world out here.  You really should peek out at it sometime.

The silly things you keep saying only reinforce the fact that we *are*
on opposite sides of a very high wall.  I see how incredibly beautiful
things are on my side, and I only keep telling you about it because
I'd like to you come join me here.

I never said that.  I said that I would PREFER to cease to exist than
to be tossed into any god's version of Hell.

You say to me, "Brian, come up here and take a look from this vantage
point."  But you're in a valley, looking at a crayon drawing of a sun
and a tree, and I can't for the life of me figure out why you're so
immersed in it.  *I*'m the one trying to get you to come up HERE,
don't you see?

I've heard that in California they ask you to swear without any
mention of a god.  What states actually include "god" in the
courtroom oath?

	The "R Us" is not trademarked, but the "Backwards R Us" is, I 
believe.

---

  others?

What atheists are you talking about?  

IMNSHO, Abortion is the womans choice.  Homosexual sex is the choice of 
the people involved.  War is sometimes necessary.  

This leaves capital punishment.  I oppose capital punishemnt because 
mistakes can happen (yes this thread went around with no resolution
recently).

As far as poplulation control, I think contraception and education are
the best courses of action.

That's because you are again making the assumption that all Atheists 
have some specific mindset.

Mistakes can happen Bill, and I could be the victim of such a mistake.

: >
: >I think you're letting atheist mythology confuse you on the issue of

: (WEBSTER:  myth:  "a traditional or legendary story...
:            ...a belief...whose truth is accepted uncritically.")

: How does that qualify?
: Indeed, it's almost oxymoronic...a rather amusing instance.
: I've found that most atheists hold almost no atheist-views as
: "accepted uncritically," especially the few that are legend.
: Many are trying to explain basic truths, as myths do, but
: they don't meet the other criterions.

Andrew,

The myth to which I refer is the convoluted counterfeit athiests have
created to make religion appear absurd. Rather than approach religion
(including Christainity) in a rational manner and debating its claims
-as the are stated-, atheists concoct outrageous parodies and then
hold the religious accountable for beliefs they don't have. What is
more accurately oxymoric is the a term like, reasonable atheist.

Bill

: >Divine justice. According to the most fundamental doctrines of
: >Christianity, When the first man sinned, he was at that time the

: You accuse him of referencing mythology, then you procede to
: launch your own xtian mythology.  (This time meeting all the
: requirements of myth.)
 
Here's a good example of of what I said above. Read the post again, I
said, "Acoording to ...", which means I am referring to Christian
doctrine (as I understand it), if I am speaking for myself you'll know
it. My purpose in posting was to present a basic overview of Christain
doctrines since it seemed germane.

Bill

: >with those who pretend not to know what is being said and what it
: >means. When atheists claim that they do -not- know if God exists and
: >don't know what He wants, they contradict the Bible which clearly says
: >that -everyone- knows. The authority of the Bible is its claim to be

: ...should I repeat what I wrote above for the sake of getting
: it across?  You may trust the Bible, but your trusting it doesn't
: make it any more credible to me.
: If the Bible says that everyone knows, that's clearly reason
: to doubt the Bible, because not everyone "knows" your alleged
: god's alleged existance.

Again I am paraphrasing Christian doctrine which is very clear on this
point, your dispute is not with me ...

Bill

: >refuted while the species-wide condemnation is justified. Those that
: >claim that there is no evidence for the existence of God or that His will is
: >unknown, must deliberately ignore the Bible; the ignorance itself is
: >no excuse.

: 1) No, they don't have to ignore the Bible.  The Bible is far
: from universally accepted.  The Bible is NOT a proof of god;
: it is only a proof that some people have thought that there
: was a god.  (Or does it prove even that?  They might have been
: writing it as series of fiction short-stories.  As in the
: case of Dionetics.)  Assuming the writers believed it, the
: only thing it could possibly prove is that they believed it.
: And that's ignoring the problem of whether or not all the
: interpretations and Biblical-philosophers were correct.

: 2) There are people who have truly never heard of the Bible.

: 3) Again, read the FAQ.

1) Here again you miss the point. The Bible itself is not the point,
it's what it contains. It makes no difference who accpets the Bible or
even who's unaware of its existence, Christians hold that it applies
universally because mankind shares the same nature and the same fate
and the same innate knowledge of God.

2) See above

3) If you read my post with same care as read the FAQ, we wouldn't be
having this conversation.

Bill

: >freedom. You are free to ignore God in the same way you are free to
: >ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known
: >in both cases. That an atheist can't accept the evidence means only

: Bzzt...wrong answer!
: Gravity is directly THERE.  It doesn't stop exerting a direct and
: rationally undeniable influence if you ignore it.  God, on the
: other hand, doesn't generally show up in the supermarket, except
: on the tabloids.  God doesn't exert a rationally undeniable influence.
: Gravity is obvious; gods aren't.

As I said, the evidence is there, you just don't accept it, here at
least we agree.

Bill

: >Secondly, human reason is very comforatble with the concept of God, so
: >much so that it is, in itself, intrinsic to our nature. Human reason
: >always comes back to the question of God, in every generation and in

: No, human reason hasn't always come back to the existance of
: "God"; it has usually come back to the existance of "god".
: In other words, it doesn't generally come back to the xtian
: god, it comes back to whether there is any god.  And, in much
: of oriental philosophic history, it generally doesn't pop up as
: the idea of a god so much as the question of what natural forces
: are and which ones are out there.  From a world-wide view,
: human nature just makes us wonder how the universe came to
: be and/or what force(s) are currently in control.  A natural
: tendancy to believe in "God" only exists in religious wishful
: thinking.

Yes, human reason does always come back to the existence of God, we're
having this discussion are we not?

Bill

: >I said all this to make the point that Christianity is eminently
: >reasonable, that Divine justice is just and human nature is much
: >different than what atheists think it is. Whether you agree or not

: YOU certainly are not correct on human nature.  You are, at
: the least, basing your views on a completely eurocentric
: approach.  Try looking at the outside world as well when
: you attempt to sum up all of humanity.

Well this is interesting, Truth is to be determined by it politically
correct content. Granted it's extremely unhip to be a WASP male, and
anything European is contemptable, but I thought this kind of
dialogue, the purpose of a.a, was to get at the truth of things. But
then I remember the oxymoron, reasonalble atheist, and I understand.

I'd like to thank everyone and anyone who sent me information
to help me with my project.  

_______  ___   ___       ___      ___     ___  ___    ___   
--| |-   |  |  |  |    / /\  \    | |\ \  |  |  \  \/   /
  | |    |   --   |   /  --   \   | | \ \ |  |   \     /  
  | |    |   __   |  /  -----  \  | |  \ \|  |   /  /\ \  
  |_|    |__|  |__| /__/     \__\ |_|   \____|  /__/  \_\

I'll send my report to all who requested a copy!

    What do you accept as a fact --  the roundness of the earth (after 
all, the ancient Greeks thought it was a sphere, and then Newton said 
it was a spheroid, and now people say it's a geoid [?])?  yourself 
(isn't your personal identity just a theoretical construct to make 
sense of memories, feelings, perceptions)?  I'm trying to think of 
anything that would be a fact for you.  Give some examples, and let's
see how factual they are by your criteria (BTW, what are your
criteria?).

    "Gravity is _not_ a fact": is that a fact?  How about Newton's 
and Einstein's thoughts about gravity -- is it a fact that they had 
those thoughts?  I don't see how any of the things that you are 
asserting are any more factual than things like gravity, atoms or 
evolution.

    In short, before I am willing to consider your concept of what
a fact is, I'm going to have to have, as a minimum, some examples of
what you think are facts.

I am taking a course entitled "Exploring Science Using Internet".
For our final project, we are to find a compendium of Internet resources 
dealing with a science-related topic. I chose Astronomy. Anyway, I was 
wondering if anyone out there knew of any interesting resources on Internet
that provide information on Astronomy, space, NASA, or anything like that.

THANKS!

Does anyone know where I can find a code which would take concave
polygons and break them up into a set of convex polygons?

Thanks,

I disagree with what to tout, although I agree that the space program is
inherently a good thing.  Most people today only care about "what will it
cost me?" and "what's in it for me?" and could care less about whether
something is simply worthwhile in and of itself.  Our society has become
increasingly geared toward the short-term (which you could read as NOW!). 
They couldn't care less about next week, much less next century.  They want
something to show for the expenditure and they want it *now*.

I think we *should* tell them about the things that they are using now that
are spinoffs of the space program.  That is the only way you can *prove*
its worth to *them* - and they vote and pay taxes too.  The continued
existence of the space program relies upon that money.

just my $.02

BTW: don't forget Velcro...

G'Day All,

I'm looking for a program to convert BMP images to GIF, TGA or even PPM.

I'd prefer a unix program, but Dos is fine also.

I've seen Alchemy (for DOS) and some windows image viewers which can save
an image in other formats, but what I'm after is a converter not a viewer...

Any help would be apprieciated!

cheers
Stephen.

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: On-line copy of Book of Mormon
Summary: 
Distribution: usa
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems, Mtn. View, CA (415) 960-7300
Keywords: BOM, Book of Mormon, Mormon

Can anyone provide me a ftp site where I can obtain a online version
of the Book of Mormon. Please email the internet address if possible.

Here is a potentially dumb question: What prevents the martian landers
themselves from "polluting" the martian environment with earth based
critters? Is the long trip in cold radiation bathed space enough to
completely sterilize the landers?

I could imagine that a few teeny microbes could manage to get all the
way there unharmed, and then possibly thrive given the right
circumstances.

  That's _Five Weeks In A Balloon_.  And if anyone can tell me where to
get it, I sure would like a reply!  I've been looking for that book for
TEN YEAR+, and never found it.  (Note that I am _not_ looking for a $200
collector's item; I'm hoping that *someone* has published it in modern
times, either in paperback or hardcover.  I'm willing to spend $50 or
so to get a copy.

Reboost may not be a problem, if they have enough fuel.  If they don't do a 
reboost this time, they will definitely have to do one on the next servicing
mission.  But try to land a shuttle with that big huge telescope in the 
back and you could have problems.  The shuttle just isn't designed to land 
with that much weight in the payload.

of course that is a concern too, and the loss of science during the time
that it is on the ground.  plus a fear that if it comes down, some
big-wig might not allow it to go back up.  but the main concern, I
believe is the danger of the landing.  Just to add another bad vibe,
they also increase the risk of damaging an instrument.  Finally, 
this is a chance for NASA astronanuts to prove they could build and
service a space station.  Hubble was designed for in flight servicing.

bringing the telescope down, to my understanding, was considered
even very recently, but all these factors contribute to the 
decision to do it the way it was planned in the beginning.

ROB
-- 

Disclaimer-type-thingie>>>>>  These opinions are mine!  Unless of course 
	they fall under the standard intellectual property guidelines. 
	But with my intellect, I doubt it.  Besides, if it was useful
	intellectual property, do you think I would type it in here?

Dress casual. Only in heaven is there a dress code (black tie and
self-important expression)

-*----

Far from being "tossed out," the gospels are taken, almost
universally, as the primary source of information about Jesus.
I am curious as to whom Mike Cobb is referring.  Who "tosses out"
the New Testament?  Undoubtedly a few *naive* atheists do this,
but the phrasing of the question above seems to suggest that Cobb
ascribes this more broadly.

Perhaps the question that gets more to the heart of the matter is
why, except for some *naive* believers (who, unfortunately, far
outnumber nonbelievers, both naive and critical), are the gospels
*not* taken as "gospel truth" that faithfully records just what
happened two thousand years ago?  This has an easy answer, and
the answer has *nothing* to do with miracles: no text is taken
this way by a critical reader.

There is a myth among some naive believers that one takes a text,
measures it by some set of criteria, and then either confirms the
text as "historically valid" or "tosses out" the text.  I suspect
this myth comes from the way history is presented in primary and
secondary school, where certain texts are vested with authority,
and from writers such as Josh McDowell who pretend to present
historical arguments along these lines for their religious
program.  In fact, most texts used in primary and secondary
school history classes ought to be tossed out, even the better
such texts should not be treated as authoritatively as descibed
above, and Josh McDowell would not know a historical argument if
it bit him on the keister twice.

Let me present the barest outlines of a different view of texts
and their use in studying history.  First, all texts are
historically valid.  ALL texts.  Or to put this another way, I
have never seen a notion of "historical validity" that makes any
sense when applied to a text.  Second, no text should be read as
telling the "gospel truth" about historical events, in the way
that many students are wont to read history texts in primary and
secondary school.  NO text.  (This includes your favorite
author's history of whatever.)

Every text is a historical fact.  Every text was written by some
person (or some group of people) for some purpose.  Hence, every
text can serve as historical evidence.  The question is: what can
we learn from a text?  Of what interesting things (if any) does
the text provide evidence?

The diaries of the followers of the Maharishi, formerly of
Oregon, are historical evidence.  The gospels are historical
evidence.  The letters of the officers who participated in the 
vampire inquests in Eastern Europe are historical evidence.  The
modern American history textbooks that whitewash "great American
figures" are historical evidence.  These are all historical
evidence of various things.  They are *not* much evidence at all
that the Maharishi, formerly of Oregon, could levitate; that
Jesus was resurrected; that vampires exist; or that "great
American figures" are as squeaky clean as we learned in school.
They are better evidence that some people "saw" the Maharishi,
late of Oregon, levitate; that some of the early Christians
thought Jesus was resurrected; that many people in Eastern Europe
"saw" vampires return from the grave; and that we still have an
educational system that largely prefers to spread myth rather
than teach history.

How does one draw causal connections and infer what a piece of
historical evidence -- text or otherwise -- evinces?  This is a
very complex question that has no easily summarized answer.
There are many books on the subject or various parts of the
subject.  I enjoy David Hackett Fischer's "Historian's Fallacies"
as a good antidote to the uncritical way in which it is so easy
to read texts present history.  It's relatively cheap.  It's easy
to read.  Give it a try.

The universe, mirrored in a puddle.
Isn't it amazing how there *always* seems to be *another* bottle of bheer there?

Aleph *one* bottles of beer on the wall, Aleph *one* null bottles of beer!

	you, too, are a puddle.
	As above, so below.

I'm currently looking for a viewer for Computer Graphics Metafile (CGM)
pictures. Please inform me about a SHAREWARE or FREEWARE version.

Thnx,
Remco

Can someone who knows what they're talking about add a FAQ entry
on gamma correction?  Thanks.

Right.

The Branch Dividians were. They believed and trusted so much that it became
impossible to turn back to reality. What you are advocating is total
irreversible brainwashing.

The CLIPPER initiative is an announcement by Clinton that all the 
"secure" voice phones will use the same crypto chip, as a de-facto
government standard.  Problem is, the government is admitting that
they hold the keys to break the code easily, and the Justice department
will be using the keys to listen in on "illegal activities."  Many
people are really scared about such an initiative because it is
a major step towards outlawing real crypto protection on things
like email if you read the press release.  The project was developed
by NSA and given to NIST.  It uses two keys S1 and S2 that the
government claims are needed to break the code.  They claim that
these keys will be handed to two different companies, and when they
get a warrant to do a wiretap (the chip is nicknamed the wiretap chip),
they have to get the keys from both companies.  People have poked holes
through and through the press release official version and shown how
it is nowhere near as nice as it sounds, and I have given the simplified
version.  People over on sci.crypt are really scared about this
proposal it seems.

I found this on the net at my college. It sounds pretty good to me. What do
    you folks think?

    >This are the tenets of Stan as handed down and set within the Holy Book 
    >of Stan.
    >
    >1: Thou shalt not spill thine drinks or waste thine food, for all that 
    >is is sacred, and to waste is the denizen of Luc, the Infidel. All who 
    >waste today shall have not tomorrow.
    >
    >2: Thou shalt pay heed to those who know the higher calling of Stan so
    >that they may teach you the way, and that thou shalt become one with
    >Stan and the universe shall be in your hands.
    >
    >3: Thou shalt honor thy loved ones and cherish those near you, for they
    >are the true path to happiness, and happiness is a devine gift of thy
    >lord Stan.
    >
    >4: Stan is the one true God and shall be taken before all others so
    >that the false gods will know that he is the one, and all who oppose
    >him shall forever be banished to the form of the sheep and be sent to
    >the flocks of Luc for all eternity.
    >
    >5: The word is the law, and the law is the word. The word is within
    >thine own heart, follow the path and be true to thine own self and thou
    >shalt be blessed by Stan, thy lord and saviour.
    >    
    >6: Thou shalt honor the faiths of others, for it is their choice to
    >follow this path, and do not think less of others for being of a
    >different faith, yet even in the face of these false gods, do not
    >waiver in thine faith in Stan, and hope that the unbeliever will see
    >the light that is Stan.
    >
    >7: Thou shalt not wrong others for being different, for Stan cherishes
    >the different, and holds freedom in the highest regard, for to do less
    >would be to fall in with Luc, the Infidel, for Stan does not control,
    >he merely guides, and lets the choice lie within thine own heart.
    >
    >8: Thou shalt know that thy lord Stan has many names and is called
    >differently by many people, but know also that Stan is the true name,
    >and all those of the faith shall know that Stan is God and God is Stan.
    >
    >9: Thou shalt be to the world what thou art to thineself, for to be
    >false to others is to be false to yourself. Thy lord Stan asks not that
    >you be like him, he asks only that you be like yourself for that is all
    >you were ever meant to be.
    >
    >10: Thou shalt not kill the innocent nor spill blood unnecessarily, for
    >those who are deserving of death shall be dealt with by Stan and sent
    >for all eternity to the flocks of Luc, and those who harm the children 
    >of Stan, being born of Woman, shall be judged as the sheep of
    >Luc and spend all of time within his flocks.
    >
    >These commandments are the words of Stan. Heed them and he shall be
    >happy, and if thy lord Stan is happy, his happiness shall be passed
    >down to his followers.
    >
    >Hail Stan!

   It seems like a pretty good set of tenets to me.

				-=V=-
I like kittens... | E-Mail:                    | Robert Voss            | DIE!!
Especially with   | rgv9488@ultb.isc.rit.edu   | 25 Andrews Memorial Dr | DIE!!
a side order of   | RGV9488@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU | CPU# 01479             | DIE!!
french fries...   | RGV9488@RITVAX.BITNET      | Rochester NY 14623     | DIE!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------| DIE!!
    I AM DARKNESS ETERNAL! CALL ME! MY PHONE NUMBER IS (716) 475-4197   | DIE!!

  You've got it. What you regard as a right, someone else will regard
as a privilege. Followups to some generic ethics and morality
newsgroup ....

   Hi

   I would like to know if there is any software, PD or not, who
   could produce X11 output of HPGL file on RS/6000. And same kind of
   software who could produce hardcopy on postscript and lasetjet.

Try export.lcs.mit.edu.  I think that there is a viewer there called
xviewgl.  Check the README in /contrib.

MC> Theory of Creationism: MY theistic view of the theory of
MC> creationism, (there  are many others) is stated in Genesis
MC> 1.  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

And which order of Creation do you accept?	The story of creation is one of the
many places in the Bible where the Story contradicts itself.  The following is
an example...

GEN 1:25  And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle 
after  their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his
kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image,  after  our likeness: 
and  let  them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of
the air, and over the cattle, and  over  all the  earth,  and over every
creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18  And the LORD God said, It is  not  good  that  the  man should be
alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19  And out of the ground the LORD God formed  every  beast of  the 
field,  and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he
would call them: and whatsoever  Adam  called every living creature, that was
the name thereof.

Even your Bible cannot agree on how things were created.  Why should we
believe in it?

Of course not. I would think that would be great _fun_, not having ever
felt the joy and peace the Christians speak of with a longing gaze.
This is not what I got when I believed - I just tried to hide my fear
of getting punished for something I never was sure of. The Bible is
hopelessly confusing for someone who wants to know for sure. God did
not answer. In the end, I found I had been following a mass delusion,
a lie. I can't believe in a being who refuses to give a slightest hint
of her existence.

I suggest they should honestly reconsider the reasons why they believe
and analyse their position. In fact, it is amusing to note in this
context that many fundamentalist publications tell us exactly the
opposite - one should not examine one's belief critically.

I'll tell you something I left out of my 'testimony' I posted to this
group two months ago. A day after I finally found out my faith is over,
I decided to try just one more time. The same cycle of emotional
responses fired once again, but this time the delusion lasted only
a couple of hours. I told my friend in a phone that it really works,
thank god, just to think about it again when I hung up. I had to admit
that I had lied, and fallen prey to the same illusion.

I used to believe what I read in books when I was younger, or what
other people told me, but I grew more and more skeptical the more I
read. I learned what it means to use _reason_.

As a student of chemistry, I had to perform a qualitative analysis
of a mixture of two organic compounds in the lab. I _hated_ experiments
like this - they are old-fashioned and increase the student's workload
considerably. Besides, I had to do it twice, since I failed in my first
attempt. However, I think I'll never forget the lesson: 

No matter how strongly you believe the structure of the unknown is X,
it may still be Y. It is _very_ tempting to jump into conclusions, take
a leap of faith, assure oneself, ignore the data which is inconsistent. 
But it can still be wrong. 

I found out that I was, after all, using exactly the same mechanism
to believe in god - mental self-assurance, suspension of fear, 
filtering of information. In other words, it was only me, no god
playing any part. 

Oh? And I had better believe this? Dan, many UFO stories are much better
documented than the resurrection of Jesus. The resurrection is documented
quite haphazardly in the Bible - it seems the authors did not pay too
much attention to which wild rumour to leave out. Besides, the ends of
the gospels probably contain later additions and insertions; for instance,
the end of Mark (16:9-20) is missing from many early texts, says my Bible.

Jesus may have lived and died, but he was probably misunderstood.

This is easy. I believe that the world exists independent of my mind,
and that logic and reason can be used to interpret and analyse what I
observe. Nothing else need to be taken on faith, I will go by the
evidence. 

It makes no difference whether I believe George Washington existed or not.
I assume that he did, considering the vast amount of evidence presented.

A liar, how do you know what my attitude was? Try reading your Bible
again. 

I was willing to die for my faith. Those who do are usually remembered
as heroes, at least among those who believe. Dan, do you think I'm
lying when I say I believed firmly for 15 years? It seems it is 
very difficult to admit that someone who has really believed does not
do so anymore. But I can't go on lying to myself.

Blind trust is dangerous, and I was just another blind led by the blind.
But if god really wants me, she'll know what to do. I'm willing. I just
don't know whether she exists - looking at the available evidence,
it looks like she doesn't. 

Petri

The April 1993 edition of MIX Magazine carries a story on 3DO which
includes pictures of the unit, a schematic of what's inside and some
indication from the people at 3DO as to where they intend to go and in
what stages. (MIX is a trade rag aimed at the professional sound
engineering community.)

The schematic shows a central DMA Engine connecting and mediating between
two Graphics Animation processors (32 bit bus), a 32-bit RISC processor
with math co-processor, Video Decomp module, a control port, an expansion
port (where 3DO hangs its double-fast CD player), 1Mb DRAM, an optional
video port (for editing video) and on the outbound side 1MB VRAM to Video
Processor to TV chain parallel with a DSP to sound chain. 

They promise Red Book CD-quality audio, full 30 fps video and a future
connection path to your PC via a PC expansion card.

I am not informed enough to have an opinion about the various means and
methods discussed here. The article, written by Philip De Lancie, does
cover the other machines mentioned in this thread.  I come from the PC
TCP/IP world and see a tremendous potential for bringing connectedness to
the educated consumer; 3DO seems to have the right business partners to
make this happen. 

Heck, some of his ships were loaners. One was owned by a Basque...
(you know, one of those groups that probably crossed the Atlantic
_before_ Columbus came along).

well, i have lots of experience with scanning in images and altering
them.  as for changing them back into negatives, is that really possible?
scanning and altering is no big deal. i don't know what types of
features you have in your version of photoshop.  but the one i use
(which, incidentally is on a quadra) has gallery effects and all types
of other neato stuff.
i'm just wondering why you would want to put your images back into
negatives, because once you print the image out-that's your print.
do you know what exactly your aim is in all of this?  like, are you
doing this just for fun, for a business, to gain more computer
knowledge, for a project you're working on....
otherwise, i guess i don't know if i'd be helping or not by posting info
on scanning and stuff.
ok?  cool.
seeya

Regarding drag free satellites, Joe Cain gives a good description of the concept.  It is however more than a concept.  The Navy's Triad satellite succesfully used drag free control.  Drag free control is an integral part of the Stanford Gravity Probe-B spacecraft, due to fly in 1999.  It is also part of the European STEP satellite.

I've tried compiling it on several SPARCstations with gcc 2.22.  After
fixing up a few bugs (3 missing constant definitions plus a couple of
other things) I got it to compile & link, but after starting client
& server I just get a black window; sometimes the client core dumps,
sometimes the server, sometimes I get a broken pipe, sometimes it
just sits there doing nothing although I occassionally get the
cursor to become a cross-hair in dog-fight, but that's it.  I've
sent word to the author plus what I did to fix it last week, but
no reply as yet.

Yes.
 
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^     

No, look again. While you never *said* it, the implication is pretty clear.
I'm sorry, but I can only respond to your words, not your true meaning. Usenet
is a slippery medium. 

[deleted wrt the burden of proof]
Look, I'm not supporting *any* dogmatic position. I'd be a fool to say that
in the large group of people that are atheists, no people exist who wish to
proselytize in the same fashion as religion. How many hard atheists do you 
see posting here, anyway? Maybe I'mm just not looking hard enough...

I never meant to do so, although I understand where you might get that idea.
I was merely using the 'bible' example as an allegory to illustrate my
point.

Evidence for what? Who? I think I may have lost this thread...
 
[why theists are arrogant deleted]

Guilty as charged. What I *meant* to say was, the theists who *are* arrogant
are this way because they say ...  Other than that, I thought my meaning
was clear enough. Any position that claims itself as superior to another with
no supporting evidence is arrogant. Thanks for your apology, btw.

Explained above.

Not by any standard of history I've seen. Care to back this up, sans the
lies apologists are so fond of?

Not really. Most of the prophesies aren't even prophesies. They're prayers
and comments taken from the Torah quite out of context. Seems Xians started
lying right from the beginning.

My we're an arrogant ass, aren't we?

You're wrong to think we haven't. The trust was in something that doesn't
exist.

I'm still willing to die for what I believe and don't believe. So were the
loonies in Waco. So what? 

Besides, the point's not to die for what one believes in. The point's to
make that other sorry son-of-a-bitch to die for what *he* believes in!   :)

Doesn't anyone else here get tired of these cretins' tirades?

Peter the Damed, and damned proud of it!

    [re a true 24 bit XV]

Don't mind if I do.
As someone who would _love_ to see XV go to 24 bit, this
would be plenty for me.

    a) XV can Load a 24 bit image, and display it in all it's
24 bit glory on 24 bit X displays.
    b) All other operations (Crop, Dither, Smooth, etc.) are not
supported on 24 bit images.

how hard would this be?

From tolsty Thu Apr 23 21:32:35 1992
	To: newsserv@newcom.kiae.su
	Newsgroups: comp.periphs,comp.graphics.digest,comp.graphics,comp.binaries.ibm.pc.wanted,alt.graphics.pixutils,bit.listserv.omrscan
	Message-Id: <KAJ3nzfm0W@nsk.uucp.free.msk.su>
	Organization: NSK RAN
	From: Andrey V. Shorin <tolsty@nsk.uucp.free.msk.su>
	Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1992 21:32:35 +0200
	Subject: Analysis on text reading utils needed (IBM PC)
	Distribution: msk
	
	Hi!
	Does anybody know any reliable utils to read english texts with scanner?
	I want some analysis on quality of recognition, because I want to read
	texts which I get by fax ( you know -- quality on faxes is rather bad ).
	The scanner I have is B&W and 300dpi. But if there exist any good software
	that needs other specifications, that will be OK.
	
	Please, send messages to my E-mail or on conference server, I'll summarize
	them and consider your recomendations.
	
	THANK YOU!!!
	--
	   Andrey V. Shorin
	 
	   Scientific Council on Complex Problem "Cybernetics",
	   Russian Academy of Sciences

Hmm, it seems that this is the core of Christianity then, you 
have to feel guilty, and then there's this single personality
that will save you from this universal guilt feeling.

Brian, I will tell you a secret, I don't feel guilty at all,
I do mistakes, and I regret them, however I've never had this
huge guilt feeling hanging over my shoulder.

If things happen wrong, I will try to learn from the mistakes
and go on.

This all is a very clear indication that you need a certain
personality type in order to believe and adjust to certain
religious doctrines. And if your personality type is 
opposite, then you are not that easily attached to a certain
world view system.

All I know is that I don't know everything. And frankly speaking
I don't care, life is fun anyway. I recognize that I'm not 
perfect, but that does not hinder me from have a healthy
and inspiring life.

There are humans that subscribe to the same notion. The nice
thing is that when you finally shake off this huge burden,
the shoulders feel far more relaxed!

Cheers,
Kent

Ouch. I guess I didn't. Sorry. But my comment was just more
'irony' into the fire.

Cheers,
Kent

Its just variation within a thread.  The variation at times has been so great
that speciation has occurred.  So Albert Sabin is the common ancestor of
several threads, some of which have themselves speciated.  On a separate topic,
I subscribed to t.o. just recently.  Albert Sabin existed at that time, so I
have no clue as to its origins.  Maybe the abiogenesists have an answer.  I
might also point out that evolution is aimless.  Thus why Albert 
Sabin evolved into a religious discussion is probably unexplainable.

There would be some point to doing long-term monitoring of things like
particles and fields, not to mention atmospheric phenomena.  However,
there is no particular plan to establish any sort of monitoring network.
To be precise, there is no particular plan, period.  This is a large
part of the problem.  In this context, it's not surprising that unexciting
but useful missions like this get short shrift at budget time.  The closest
approach to any sort of long-term planetary monitoring mission is the
occasional chance to piggyback something like this on top of a flashier
mission like Galileo or Cassini.

It is most unlikely that there is much happening on Pluto that would be
worth monitoring, and it is a prohibitively difficult mission to fly
without new propulsion technology (something the planetary community
has firmly resisted being the guinea pigs for).  The combined need to
arrive at Pluto within a reasonable amount of time, and then kill nearly
all of the cruise velocity to settle into an orbit, is beyond what can
reasonably be done with current (that is, 1950s-vintage) propulsion.

Most of this can be done just about as well from Earth.  The few things
that can't be, can be done better from a Voyager-like spacecraft that is
*not* constrained by the need to enter orbit around a planet.

Would someone please send me a list of the historic space flights?  I 
am not looking for a list of all flights, just the ones in which something 
monumental happened.  Or better yet, is there an ftp site with the list of all
shuttle flights?

The thing is, I know what arms and legs are.  It's therefore generally easy to
tell whether or not someone has arms and legs.  This "sinful nature", since it
does not require that the baby actually perform any sins, seems to be totally
invisible.  As far as I know, maybe half the babies have a sinful nature and
half don't--it'd look exactly the same, since there is no way to tell the
difference.

So what's so bad about a sinful nature, then?  I could understand it being
bad if it always results in people committing sins, but babies can have it,
never commit sins, die, and they still have it.  So the bad part about can't
merely be that it results in people committing sins--so what _is_ bad about it?
--

James Nicholl sez;

Jeff responds;

I wouldn't worry too much about it, Jeff.  If you work for JPL, then your
job IS imaging things :-)

(I know, it was a just a typo, but I couldn't resist.  At least, I hope it
was a typo, or my stupid joke is stupider than I intended :-)

-Tommy Mac

I found this little gem, I don't know if anyone has any interest/comments...

           I'm a commited Christian that is battling with a problem.  I know
that romans talks about how we are saved by our faith not our deeds, yet
hebrews and james say that faith without deeds is useless, saying' You fools,
do you still think that just believing is enough?'

Now if someone is fully believing but there life is totally lead by themselves
and not by God, according to Romans that person is still saved by there faith.
But then there is the bit which says that God preferes someone who is cold to
him (i.e. doesn't know him - condemned) so a lukewarm Christian someone who
knows and believes in God but doesn't make any attempt to live by the bible.

Now I am of the opinion that you a saved through faith alone (not what you do)
as taught in Romans, but how can I square up in my mind the teachings of James
in conjunction with the lukewarm Christian being 'spat-out'

Can anyone help me, this really bothers me.-- 

in Christ,

Will

--Adam

And I lived out there too.  It was a nice sleepy farm valley until
the Butler family decided to stick up all sorts of really tacky
High RIse office buildings and ruin my view of the sky.

I guess i should have sued somebody :-;

You should have been following the discussion of GRBs
going on in sci.astro. It's been discussed in some detail,
with references even.

It was brought to my attention that there was an oversight in the SIGKids
Research Showcase Call for Participation and Entry Form.

Please note that the SIGKids Research Showcase is part of 
SIGGRAPH '93, August 1-6, 1993 Anaheim, California.

Thank you,

SIGKids Committee Member
Institute for the Learning Sciences

We have reached the point in our society when there are certain crimes
that are so heinous that to merely be accused with them one is automaticly
considered guilty and deemed not to have any natural rights much less civil 
rights. Among these are drug abuse, sexual perversion, and political 
incorrectness.
Today Billary accused Koresh of having SEX with infants. He had been accused of
a number of differing crimes (inconsistantly) over the last two months, but 
this is the first time I have heard that one. I had heard child abuse but
this is somewhat stronger.
It is fairly obvious that Koresh  was hiding behind the children; and ironicly
considering his apocalyptic dread, believed enough in the American People's
inherent goodness to believe he was protected.
It is truly amazing that all these people who 60 days ago had never heard of 
the Branch Davidian now believe that he was suicidal, crazy, a child abuser and 
a immenant danger to others based solely on what the Government spokespersons
had said. Remember that these people have an awful lot to loose if it is found
that they have screwed up. 
But they don't have as much to lose as David Koresh and his followers lost.
For in our society as it stands murder is not one of the heinous crimes.

[Space ad proposed]

This is undoubtedly the sickest thing to come down the marketing pipe
in years, and the best reason for resurrecting the "Star Wars" killer
satellite system.

Can someone please give me a couple names of anonymous
ftp sites that cater to graphics.  I am looking for info/
sources/images for building a ray tracer.  

Thanks,

Speaking of SIGGRAPH, I just went through the ordeal of my annual registration
for SIGGRAPH and re-upping of membership in the ACM last night, and was I ever
grossed out!  The new prices for membership are almost highway robbery!

	SIGGRAPH basic fee went from $26 last year to $59 this year for the same
	thing, a 127% increase.  Those facile enough to arrange a trip to the
	annual conference could reduce this to $27 by selecting SIGGRAPH Lite,
	which means SIGGRAPH is charging an additional $32 (or so) for the
	proceedings and the art show catalog, essentially.

	TOPLAS went up 40% in cost, way outstripping the current inflation rate.

	Basic SIGCHI fees remainded the same, but whereas before SIGCHI
	membership included UIST and Human Factors conferences proceedings,
	these are now an extra cost option.  Bundling that back into the basic
	rate, equivalent services have gone up 100% in cost.

	SIGOIS membership cost has up 33%, but they've also split out the
	Computer Supported Cooperative Work conference proceedings that used to
	be included with membership.  Adding that cost back in means this SIG
	also has doubled its membership fee.

What really galls me is that the ACM sent out brochures a couple months ago
touting their new approach to providing member services, and tried to make it
sound like they were offering NEW services.  But with the exception of a couple,
like SIGGRAPH, all the "plus" services appear to be just splitting the costs
into smaller piles so that they don't look so big.  But their recommended
changes to my membership would have me paying 90% more than last year for a 31%
increase in services (measured by cost, not by value), and, curiously, a 31%
inflation rate on the publications I got last year.

Is anyone out there as galled by this extortion as I am?
Robert Reed			Home Animation Ltd.		503-656-8414
robert@slipknot.rain.com	5686 First Court, West Linn, OR 97068

SHOOTING YOURSELF IN THE FOOT IN VARIOUS LANGUAGES AND SYSTEMS

(sci.space readers can skip the first paragraph)

  Yesterday, in response to Henry Spencer's question about the 
temperature of a blackbody in interstellar space, I said "Dust grains
acts as blackbodies, and they're at 40-150 K."  Well, I was dead
wrong.  Our local interstellar dust expert, Bruce Draine, has
informed me that dust grains _aren't_ good radiators in the far IR,
which is why they are so warm; actually, the ambient radiation field
from distant stars can bring a true blackbody to only 3 or 4 Kelvin.
Sorry, Henry, and anyone else I misled.  Obviously, time for me to
take another ISM class :-(

  In other news, Alan Stern of the Southwest Research Institute gave
a talk on the Pluto-Charon binary system yesterday.  He gave a brief
overview of the currently-accepted system parameters (volume ratio of
about 8:1, mass ratio about 15:1 or so, plus lots more...) and then
gave his thoughts on the formation of Pluto-Charon.  His idea is 
that there were lots and lots of small planetesimals in the outer
solar system, with masses distributed as a power law of some kind;
over time, the planetesimals accreted into larger bodies.  Most got
scattered out of the solar system by close encounters with Jupiter
and Saturn, but many accreted into the gas giants, especially
Uranus and Neptune.  A large planetesimal was captured by Neptune -
we call it Triton [captured how?  Perhaps by a collision with a smaller,
already-existing Neptunian moon, perhaps by a very close passage through
Neptune's atmosphere - mondo aerobraking!].

  He notes that the two recently discovered "Kuiper Belt" objects,
1992 QB1 and 1993 FW, plus Chiron and Pholus, are all about the same 
mass, and he identifies this group as one-accretion-down from the
larger bodies of Triton and Pluto/Charon.  Pluto/Charon, he thinks,
formed when an impacting body hit proto-Pluto, knocking some material
into a ring around Pluto which later accreted in Charon; similar to
ideas about the formation of Earth's moon.  There is good evidence
from spectra that the surfaces of Pluto and Charon are very different
(Pluto has methane frost, Charon doesn't), which can be used as evidence
for the impact theory.

  He believes that there may be around 1000 Pluto-to-Chiron-sized objects
remaining in a relatively stable dynamical zone just outside Neptune's 
orbit, beyond 35 AU or so.  1992 QB1 and 1993 FW are the first members
of this population to be found, in his model.  Note that such bodies
will be very dark, since if their surfaces are covered with methane 
frost, it will have photolyzed into very dark, long-chain hydrocarbons
by now.  The reason that Pluto has such a high albedo (around 0.5, I think)
is that its surface warms up JUST enough around perihelion to sublimate,
and when the atmosphere freezes out again, thirty years later, it forms
bright, new frost.  So any bodies much farther away than 30 AU are going
to be very hard to see.

  I hope I haven't made any errors in the transcription; if you see
a howling mistake, it's undoubtedly mine, not his.

  By the way, he's one of the top guns behind the Pluto Fast Flyby
mission (I think), and said that the current plans are to use a
Titan 4 to send the probe on "just about a rectilinear trajectory"
to Pluto (we were speaking loosely at the time...).  He'd like
to use a Proton, which gives a slightly smaller velocity but costs
MUCH less.  His figures: $500 Million for 2 Titan 4 launches (there
will be two separate probes, launched separately), or $120 Million
for 2 Proton launches.  He told a story about how the Soviets originally
offered to sell Proton launches for $30 Million each, but were forced
to increase their prices in the US in order to be allowed in the
marketplace.

  I'm just telling you what he said.

                          Michael

Krzysztof Muchorowski was asking about GIF-to-TGA conversion so that he
could use DTA 1.5 to convert the TGA files to FLI animation files.

That may change next month; at least I hope it will. A couple of hundred
journalists have requested press passes for the test flights. Sustaining
that publicity however, will be a problem. 

  Allen

I am pleased to announce that a *revised version* of _The Easy-to-Read Book
of Mormon_ (former title: _Mormon's Book_) by Lynn Matthews Anderson is now
available through anonymous ftp (see information below). In addition to the
change in title, the revised ETR BOM has been shortened by several pages
(eliminating many extraneous "that's" and "of's"), and many (minor) errors
have been corrected. This release includes a simplified Joseph Smith Story,
testimonies of the three and eight witnesses, and a "Words-to-Know"
glossary.

As with the previous announcement, readers are reminded that this is a
not-for-profit endeavor. This is a copyrighted work, but people are welcome
to make *verbatim* copies for personal use. People can recuperate the
actual costs of printing (paper, copy center charges), but may not charge
anything for their time in making copies, or in any way realize a profit
from the use of this book. See the permissions notice in the book itself
for the precise terms.

Negotiations are currently underway with a Mormon publisher vis-a-vis the
printing and distribution of bound books. (Sorry, I'm out of the wire-bound
"first editions.") I will make another announcement about the availability
of printed copies once everything has been worked out.

FTP information: connect via anonymous ftp to carnot.itc.cmu.edu, then "cd
pub" (you won't see anything at all until you do).

"The Easy-to-Read Book of Mormon" is currently available in postscript and
RTF (rich text format). (ASCII, LaTeX, and other versions can be made
available; contact dba@andrew.cmu.edu for details.) You should be able to
print the postscript file on any postscript printer (such as an Apple
Laserwriter); let dba know if you have any difficulties. (The postscript in
the last release had problems on some printers; this time it should work
better.) RTF is a standard document interchange format that can be read in
by a number of word processors, including Microsoft Word for both the
Macintosh and Windows. If you don't have a postscript printer, you may be
able to use the RTF file to print out a copy of the book.

-r--r--r--  1 dba                   1984742 Apr 27 13:12 etrbom.ps
-r--r--r--  1 dba                   1209071 Apr 27 13:13 etrbom.rtf

For more information about how this project came about, please refer to my
article in the current issue of _Sunstone_, entitled "Delighting in
Plainness: Issues Surrounding a Simple Modern English Book of Mormon."

Send all inquiries and comments to:

    Lynn Matthews Anderson
    5806 Hampton Street
    Pittsburgh, PA 15206

I was skimming through a few gophers and bumped into one at NIH
   with a database that included images in .GIF format.  While I have
   not yet worked out the kinks of getting the gopher client to call
   an X viewer, I figure that the majority of the users here are not
   in an X11 environment - instead using DOS and MS-Kermit.

      With Kermit supporting Tek4010 emulation for graphics display,
   does anyone know of a package that would allow a Tek to display a
   .GIF image?  It would be of more use to the local population to
   plug something of this sort in as the 'picture' command instead of
   XView or XLoadImage ...

Corel Draw will do it; version 2 onwards. If you have version 1 perhaps an
upgrade is in order.

Another alternative would be to use a different bureau that can take PostScript.

--

   Analog SF magazine did an article on a similar subject quite a few
years ago.  The question was, if an alien spacecraft landed in
Washington, D.C., what was the proper organization to deal with it: The
State Department (alien ambassadors), the Defense Department (alien
invaders), the Immigration and Naturalization Service (illegal aliens),
the Department of the Interior (new non-human species), etc.  It was
very much a question of our perception of the aliens, not of anything
intrinsic in their nature.  The bibliography for the article cited a
philosophical paper (the name and author of which I sadly forget; I
believe the author was Italian) on what constitutes a legal and/or moral
person, i.e., a being entitled to the rights normally accorded to a
person.  The paper was quite interesting, as I recall.

   I think you'd have to be very careful here if the answer is yes.  The
human track record on helping those poor underpriveleged cultures (does
underpriveleged mean not having enough priveleges?) is terrible.  The
usual result is the destruction or radical reorganization of the
culture.  This may not always be wrong, but that's the way to bet.

I just received some new information regarding the issue of 
BCCI and whether it is an Islamic bank etc.

I am now about to post it under the heading

"BCCI".

Look for it there!

Faith and intelligence tell me that when a druggie breaks into my house at
night with a knife to kill me for the $2 in my wallet, a .357 is considerably
more persuasive than having devotions with him.

Could someone please help me. I am trying to find the 
address to the TDRS receiving station at White Sands
Missile Range. I am interested in possible employment
and would like to write for information.

Does anyone truely understand the "INVALID NORMAL ARRAY" error 3ds gives
you while rendering?  It seems to present itself while rendering
complicated images.  I have circumvented this problem by rendering at
the command line, however it would be nice to render inside the editor.
Is this a memory problem???  

I've just spent two solid months arguing that no such thing as an
objective moral system exists.

Ken:

Your arguments are thoughtful but you are going up against the Big
Boys if you're tackling Henry.  Allen Sherzer will doubtless chime in
on the subject of staggering operational costs, too.  Good luck, son.

Ahem.  The Russians are in the Free World now, or at least it would be
Politically Correct to contend so.

It will be tough to make DC-X succeed, and to turn it into an
operational orbital vehicle.  Doubtless it will fail to meet some of
the promised goals.  The reason people are so fond of it is that it's
the *only* chance we have now, or will have for a *long* time to come,
to develop a launch vehicle with radically lower costs.  

There is no Shuttle successor in funded development, NASP is dwindling
away, and ALS/NLS/Spacelifter sure as hell aren't gonna knock any
zeroes off that $2000-$3000 per pound cost.   Part of the blame for
this must be placed on a Shuttle program that consumes many annual
billions of the, er, Free World's available space cash.  As you will
no doubt hear from many correspondents in the days to come. (-:

DC-X is an attempt to break out of the vicious cycle by keeping
development costs low and flying incremental "X-plane" hardware.
It's been, to my mind, incredibly successful already-- they've built a
complex prototype in under 600 days for under 60 megabucks.  I would
have been extremely skeptical that this could be accomplished in 1990s
America, never mind flying the thing, getting a successor funded, or
building the DC-Y.

I'm sure you know well that launch costs are THE basic problem for any
expansion of astronautics.  I don't see a realistic  prospect for
beating down those costs, for multi-ton payloads, anywhere else.  If
the DC flops, it'll be business as usual in space.  The Nineties and
the Double-Oughts will look just like the Seventies and Eighties, a
prospect too depressing to bear.

(Pegasus represents another assault on the problem from a different
direction.  It doesn't lower cost-per-pound but it offers an orbital
launch for under ten megabucks.  It's creating its own market for
small payloads.)

I read the magazines and I've attended the last two IAFs. There are
plenty of engineers with paper ideas for cheaper launch systems, some
of them as good as or better than SSTO.  There is no sign in today's
world that any of these designs will be allowed anywhere near an
assembly line.

[...deleting some things I'm not going to prove tonight...]

Strawman.  Is anybody seriously proposing this?  References, please. 
The DC must be developed in the real-world funding climate, which
includes a NASA ferociously committed to continuing Shuttle
operations, as well as the "bird in the hand" argument your common
sense tells you.   If DC-Y flies at all, it flies alongside the
Shuttle, not instead of it.

Also, of course, DC-Y and its operational descendants will be useful
for a wide variety of jobs even if they are *not* man-rated.

If a DC-X successor can fly a 10,000-kg payload for $1M, or even $5M,
rather than the $40M it now costs, more people will be able to afford
more payloads... for the same money, you can fly several satellites
instead of one.  Big outfits can fly multi-satellite series.  Little
outfits will be able to fly spacecraft of their own, instead of
begging a ride.  This is just supply and demand.  You should be able
to convince *yourself* that point 4 will be true, assuming DC makes a
big difference in costs.  Do you have some reason to think not?

	As I don't know this book, I will use your heresay.

	It depends on how he defines God. The way I understand the meaning
of that term preclues it being used in a useful way in science. Ideas drawn
from an understanding that God is supernatural precludes us from forming
scientific assertions that can be falsified, that is, where we can decide
that they are true or false within the terms of we use and useful observations
drawn from them.

	Some religionists have an interest in bluring the definitions within
science to make them more reconcilable, and especially subserviant in a basic
way, to religious dogma. This pursuit always fails.

	Reconciliation of science with religion involves circumventing the
tendancy to claim that either pursuit can gain absolute or certian knowledge,
or that the domain of truth in each is fundementally limited in some way. It
gererally confurs the element of uncertainty and limitations to human knowledge
while allowing for the different concerns of these separate pursuits. Science
and religion ask different questions which have imperfect and provisional
answers, at best. Science is distinctly limited in where it can ask meaningful
questions. More questions can be posed than it can answer. At the basis of
sacred language is the place where words fail us and mere assertions disolve
in contradiction.

Sounds like more of the same.  Gods were used to describe almost
everything in the past.  As we come to understand the underpinnings of
more and more, the less we credit to a god.  Now, the not-so-well
understood elements (at least by the author) includes quarks and tectonic
drift.  I guess that's better than describing the perceived patterns of
stars in the sky as heroes being immortalized by the gods.

Kinda sounds like old-earth creation--It seems that life did, indeed, evolve
from a common ancestor.  What caused that initial common ancestor?

Are we going to hear another debate on causeless events? ;-)

Well, no, during the original deployment mission the HST aperture door was
not opened until after the Shuttle had landed.  

I presume that during a re-boost mission HST would be berthed in the orbiter
with the orbiter bay doors shut; but still there would be lots of contamination
worries.  I understand that the EVA suits are one of the hardest things to 
keep clean.

But I still don't know where the idea is coming from that HST _NEEDS_ a
re-boost.  We have many problems but our orbit is the least of them.  There
is certainly no plan to change the orbit in the first servicing mission in
December.

Only if he doesn't spend more than a billion dollars doing it, since the
prize is not going to be scaled up to match the level of effort.  You can
spend a billion pretty quickly buying Titan launches.

What's more, if you buy Titans, the prize money is your entire return on
investment.  If you develop a new launch system, it has other uses, and
the prize is just the icing on the cake.

I doubt very much that a billion-dollar prize is going to show enough
return to justify the investment if you are constrained to use current
US launchers.  (There would surely be a buy-American clause in the rules
for such a prize, since it would pretty well have to be government-funded.)
You're going to *have* to invest your front money in building a new launch
system rather than pissing it away on existing ones.  Being there first is
of no importance if you go bankrupt doing it.

I'm sure Spar would offer to develop such a lunar-tuned system and deliver
a couple of them to you for only a couple of hundred million dollars.

Could anybody tell me if exists any program to convert AUTOCAD graphics to
another format (GIF, TIFF, BMP, PCX ...) and where to get it?

No, the thing is designed to be retrievable, in a pinch.  Indeed, this
dictated a rather odd design for the solar arrays, since they had to be
retractable as well as extendable, and may thus have indirectly contributed
to the array-flapping problems.

The retrieval problems are exactly as stated:  it would be costly, would
involve extensive downtime (and the worry of someone finding a reason not
to re-launch it), and would unnecessarily expose the telescope to a lot
of mechanical stresses and possibilities for contamination.

I'm having a slight problem with the POV raytracer.  I'm not sure if
this is the correct group to post to or not.  I create .tga files on
a unix machine using pov.  Then when i download them to display on my pc,
they're listed as bad files.  But when I create the file on my pc, it displays
fine.  Are unix .tga's incompatible with the pc?  An easy solution to this
problem would be a unix targa->gif converter.  Anyone know where I could
find one?  Any help on this subject is appreciated.  

Hi there,

I'm looking for help on hi-rez CGA modes (hey, i know it sounds crazy but at
the moment it's got to do). My card's manual says it does something like
640 by 400 2 colour and 640 by 200 4 colour (the card has 64k memory). Could 
anyone give me some help on how to implement these modes (Assembly language 
is fine). Any other usefull tips on the CGA regs will also help.

Thanx in advance...

Frans.

My eMail is

(Short reply to Kent Sandvik's post remarking how it is strange that
somehow Sufism is related to Islam, as [to him] they seem quite
different.)

If one really understands Islam, it is not strange that Sufism is
associated with it.  In fact, Sufism is (in general) seen as the "inner
dimension" of Islam.

One of the "roots" of the word "Islam" is "submission" -- "Islam"
denotes submission to God.  Sufism is the most complete submission to
God imaginable, in "annihilating" oneself in God.

(I am not a Sufi or on the Sufi path, but have read a lot and recently
have been discussing a number of things with others who are on the Sufi
path.)

Recently we have found TIFF manipulation packages which do not recognize
TIFF files output by xv.  This is due to a missing XRESOLUTION and YRESOLUTION
tag which apparently is required (or at least believed to be required) for
valid TIFF.  I have checked both xv 2.x and xv 3.x and neither of these
do indeed copy these tags.

Has anyone out there hacked in the fixes for xv to support these tags?
I have been told that I could find some code in tiff/tools/tiffcp.c, but
that directory is one of many of the tiff group not distributed with xv.  I
hope to obtain the original tiff src and look at it, but would prefer
to find code already known to work in xv.

I think that _The_Transcedental_Temptation_, by Paul Kurtz, has a good
section on the origins of Mormonism you might want to look at.

Does anyone know how to decode the color information of a NTSC signal ?

I need to convert this data to RGB for a Video Capture Utility I am 
writing for use with an IBM M-MOTION Video adapter card...

I need to know the how the V and U signals work in the color process.

Thanks in advance for any information or algorythms etc.

I am looking for a shareware graphics package called NeoPaint v1.1.  I 
saw it in a shareware catalog and was hoping that I could FTP it from 
the net but have been unable to locate it.  I have tried Archie and I 
have gone through the entire comp.graphics newsgroup looking for some 
reference to it and have found none.  I have  also looked through the 
FAQ and also no reference.  The program is called NeoPaint v1.1 and if 
anyone has heard of it or knows where I can get it I would appreciate 
it.

Suggestions for other PC based shareware paint programs would also be 
appreciated. Email me your responses.

	   Also,if they did come from the Oort cloud we would expect to
   see the same from other stars Oort Clouds.

: Mike Adams suggested discussions on long-term effects of spaceflight
: to the human being.  I love this topic, as some of you regulars know.

: So, having seen Henry's encouraging statement about starting to talk
: about it; I shall.

: I feel that we as a community of people have unique resources
: to deliver to the world a comprehensive book which can elaborate
: on the utility of spaceflight to fields which are as divergent 
: as medical intensive care, agriculture, environmental protection, and 
: probably more.  I do not believe that the general public understands
: the impact of spaceflight on the whole of society.  In the absence
: of such knowledge, we see dwindling support of the world's space effort.

Just a few contributions from the space program to "regular" society:

1.	Calculators
2.	Teflon (So your eggs don't stick in the pan)
3.	Pacemakers (Kept my grandfather alive from 1976 until 1988)

p.s.  To all the regular contributors to sci.space.news and
sci.space.shuttle, thanks for all your hard work keeping us informed
as to the doings down in NASA and other space-type agencies.  I don't
have much time to read USENET, but I ALWAYS read these two groups....

Come on, this is sci.space.  An orbital billboard won't
do any permanent damage; in a few years it will reenter
and probably hit Los Angles anyway :-)

The boost to space commerce orbital advertising might
provide might speed the day it is possible for those with a 
yen for dark skies to get some really dark skies beyond
the dust producing the zodiacal light. 

Now, if they wanted to paint the CocaCola symbol on the
moon in lampblack, that would give me pause.  It would
be very difficult to reverse such a widespread application
of pigments.

It is true the convex algorithm is faster than a general concave/multi outline
algorithm, but not tremendously faster.  I spent awhile implementing and
optimizing both flavors, and the convex turned out about 10% faster.  This is
all C (on HP PA-RISC the compiler got the inner loop [shooting the span] as
fast as possible, as far as I could tell).  For any sort of game the database
to render is known ahead of time, and can be made all convex.  Definitely the
way to go.

p.s. sorry but my code CANNOT be made public domain....
	jesse

I am looking for the specs for the .mpg files that are floating around
the alt.binaries.pictures.* groups on the net.  Please lemme know where
I can obtain the spec or email it to me.

Thanks much.

That's right.  Everyone.  Even infants who cannot speak as yet.  Even
a little child will rebelliously stick his finger in a light socket.
Even a little child will not want his diaper changed.  Even a little
child will fight nap-time.

So far as Jesus saying "everyone":  

    A certain ruler asked Jesus, "Good teacher, what must I do to
    inherit eternal life?"

    "Why do you call me good?"  Jesus answered.  "No one is good--
    except God alone."

Ken, the book of Romans states that we are born sinners.  We do
not grow into being a sinner.  We sin because we are sinners.  The
common mistake, even in Christian circles, is to think the reverse
true.    So for as surely as you grew to look like you parents,
you not only inherited their appearance, but also their sin nature.
It goes with being human.

This is the most unmitigated bilge I've seen in a while. Jim Brown obviously
has possession of the right-wing token.

"In December, former national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski told a
Senate committee that sanctions were costing Iraq $100 million per day, and
that the multinational coalition could take all the time in the world.
Iraq, he suggested, was losing badly every day it defied the UN demands,
while the community of nations won every day -- with no taking of life or
loss of life."  -- FCNL Washington Newsletter.

Wrongful actions of murderers like leaders of the US government, perhaps?
Regrettable, of course; The-Way-It-Is - certainly not.

Good heavens! An escapee from Rush Limbot Land! "Conservative", my ass.

BULLSHIT!!! In the Gulf Massacre, 7% of all ordnance used was "smart." The
rest - that's 93% - was just regular, dumb ol' iron bombs and stuff. Have
you forgotten that the Pentagon definition of a successful Patriot launch
was when the missile cleared the launching tube with no damage? Or that a
successful interception of a Scud was defined as "the Patriot and Scud
passed each other in the same area of the sky"?

And of the 7% that was the "smart" stuff, 35% hit. Again - try to follow me
here - that means 65% of this "smart" arsenal missed.

Prove it. I have a source that says that to date, the civilian death count
(er, excuse me, I mean "collateral damage") is about 200,000.

-s
--
   "No one has attempted to calculate the costs of an execution in
Washington state, but studies elsewhere suggest it costs far more than
incarceration.
   "California is spending more than $90 million annually on capital cases,
and until this year hadn't executed anyone since 1972.  Texas, the national
leader in the number of executions, spends an estimated $2.3 million per
execution.  That compares to an average cost of incarceration in Washington
state of $25,000 per maximum-security prisoner per year."

Wow, this is news to me---it started in Tarsus--you know, where Paul
of NT fame was from.  Not to be nasty, but get a clue, read
_The Orgins of the Mithraic Mysteries_ by DUlansey!
 
Hey hasn't anyone read Manly P Hall's works?  Perhaps it might be
worth a try....

In Space Digest V16 #487,

...about the protests over proposals to put a giant billboard into orbit,

Mr. Hathaway's post is right on the money, if a little lengthy.  In short,
an orbiting billboard would be trash, in the same way that a billboard on
the Earth is trash.  Billboards make a place look trashy.  That is why there
are laws in many places prohibiting their use.  The light pollution
complaints are mainly an attempt to find some tangible reason to be against
orbiting billboards because people don't feel morally justified to complain
on the grounds that these things would defile the beauty of the sky.

Regular orbiting spacecraft are not the same in this respect, since they are
more like abstract entities, but a billboard in space would be like a beer
can somebody had thrown on the side of the road: just trash.

#Recently, I've asked myself a rather interesting question: What RIGHT does
#god have on our lives (always assuming there is a god, of course...!) ??
#
#In his infinite wisdom, he made it perfectly clear that if we don't live
#according to his rules, we will burn in hell. Well, with what RIGHT can god
#make that desicion? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that god creates
#every one of us (directly or indirectly, it doesn't matter.). What then
#happens, is that he first creates us, and then turns us lose. Well, I didn't
#ask to be created.
#
#Let's make an analogue. If a scientist creates a unique living creature
#(which has happened, it was even patented...!!!), does he then have the
#right to expect it to behave in a certain matter, or die...?

Dear Joakim, let me begin by saying that these are excellent questions,
but that by asking, you will find as many different explanations as there
are respondents.  As a Latter-day Saint, I believe that all of us (you,
me, etc.) lived once as spirit-children of God the Father (Hebrews 12:9)
in the pre-mortal existance. In order to continue our eternal progression,
an earthly probationary time was required.  (To live by faith, not by
sight, to choose good over evil, and to prepare ourselves in all things
to become worthy of a higher order of existance.)  We believe that all of
God's spirit-offspring were once assembled to discuss the specifics of
this earthly sojourn.  One-third chose for Lucifer's plan, most followed
the Firstborn (the pre-mortal Jesus Christ).  Lucifer's aspirations ("I
will exalt my throne above the stars of God . . ." Isaiah 14:12-17, etc.)
resulted into the rebellion of his followers against the Firstborn and
those who followed Him, resulting in the casting out of Lucifer (who
became Satan, the father of lies) and one-third of the hosts of heaven
("And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast
them to the earth . . ." Revelation 12:4) as demons (evil spirits).

To get back on OUR choice to be born on this earth, and to be subject to
God and His plan (for good or bad, based upon our obedience and choices),
we made that choice individually.  (God speaking to Job: "Where wast thou
when I laid the foundations of the earth, . . . when the morning stars
sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:4-7).  We
lost the knowledge of our pre-mortal existance (the "Veil of Forgetful-
ness," somewhere in Psalms), in order to live by faith, not by sight.

You may not accept this scenario, neither do quite a few who rely on the
Bible alone, which offers only fragmentary insights into this particular
aspect of our existence as individuals, as sons and daughters of God.

#Who is god to impose its rules on us ? Who can tell if god is REALLY so
#righteous as god likes us to believe? Are all christians a flock of sheep,
#unable to do otherwise that follow the rest?
#
#Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

(All Christians, by definition, ARE a flock of sheep, following the Shepherd
as they understand Him  ;-)  --But in any event, not all Christians believe
in the same theology, such as the one Latter-day Saints believe in.  (They
will cry "heresy" and other accusations of "perverting" the doctrines of
the Bible, while they themselves believe in a myriad of interpretations, as
found in their catechisms and various do-it-yourself Bible-study manuals...)

As for me, I have a personal conviction that the pre-existance scenario as
explained above, is most in harmony with Biblical doctrine, some Dead Sea
Scroll books, the pseudographion, other (Jewish) sources, and last but not
least, modern-day revelation on the subject.

#I just want to point out that this is not sarcasm, I mean it.
#
#                        How should one deal with a man who is convinced that
#                        he is acting according to God's will, and who there-
#     Jokke              fore believes that he is doing you a favour by
#                        stabbing you in the back?
#
#                                                        -Voltaire

Word is that the ones he let go were not his.
---
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 ---------Visit the SOUNDING BOARD BBS +1 214 596 2915, a Wildcat! BBS-------

    "Foot" the Bill:  let's get a new President.

That's not "showing the signs of his innate sin", that's testing the
limits of his newfound independence.  A two-year-old will continually
test you to see just how much he can get away with, just as a pet dog
will.

If a child always submitted to your will in a docile fashion, would
you praise him and suspect that he's the Second Coming of Christ, or
would you seek professional help about his emotional development?

=Having read in the past about the fail-safe mechanisms on spacecraft, I had
=assumed that the Command Loss Timer had that sort of function.  However I
=always find disturbing the oxymoron of a "NO-OP" command that does something.
=If the command changes the behavior or status of the spacecraft it is not
=a "NO-OP" command.

Using your argument, the NOOP operation in a computer isn't a NOOP, since it
causes the PC to be incremented.

=Of course this terminology comes from a Jet Propulsion Laboratory which has
=nothing to do with jet propulsion.

Of course, the complaint comes from someone who hasn't a clue as to what he's
talking about.
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

What I mean is what I said.   "What I want" does not automatically
translate into "what I think is right."   That is, it does not 
translate that way for me.

If you reply that "I think it is ok to kill you because that is what 
I decided" then what that means is that for you "What I want" does
translate into "what I think is right".

It just doesn't translate that way for me.

Reposted by request ... these images are great, but they are also LARGE
(1500x1500 pixels is a typical size).  Be warned.

			regards, tom lane

From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
Newsgroups: comp.archives
Subject: [rec.arts.books] Vatican Library Exhibit at Library of Congress ONLINE
Date: 14 Feb 1993 22:02:59 GMT
X-Original-Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
X-Original-Date: 1 Feb 1993 03:09:17 GMT

Archive-name: auto/rec.arts.books/Vatican-Library-Exhibit-at-Library-of-Congress-ONLINE

This is from another newsgroup; looks quite interesting...
rms

                           ANNOUNCING
                              a new
                         ONLINE EXHIBIT
                              from
                     THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

     ROME REBORN: THE VATICAN LIBRARY & RENAISSANCE CULTURE

                        an Exhibit at the
                       Library of Congress
                      Washington, DC  20540

                 Available by anonymous FTP from
                          seq1.loc.gov
                         (140.147.3.12)

                      /pub/vatican.exhibit

ROME REBORN:  THE VATICAN LIBRARY AND RENAISSANCE CULTURE
presents some 200 of the Vatican Library's most precious
manuscripts, books, and maps--many of which played a key role in
the humanist recovery of the classical heritage of Greece and
Rome.  The exhibition presents the untold story of the Vatican
Library as the intellectual driving force behind the emergence of
Rome as a political and scholarly superpower during the
Renaissance.  The exhibit will be on display in the Jefferson
Building of the Library of Congress from January 8, 1993 through
April 30, 1993.  The online exhibit will be available by
anonymous FTP indefinitely.

     The exhibit is divided into nine (9) sections:  The Vatican
Library, Archaeology, Humanism, Mathematics, Music, Medicine &
Biology, Nature Described, A Wider World I: How the Orient Came
to Rome, and A Wider World II: How Rome Went to China.  Each
section consists of its own sub-directory within the /exhibit
directory and contains the exhibit text for that section and
separate JPEG image files for each object.  This online exhibit
includes not only objects from the Library of Congress exhibit,
but also the alternate objects (brought from Rome to be used if
there were a problem with one of the primary objects) and items
omitted later in the planning process.

     This exhibit will be of interest to Medieval and Renaissance
scholars in particular, but also to art historians, historians of
science or medicine, early music scholars, students of the
humanist movement, students of printing and the printed word,
theologians, scholars of both Far and Near Eastern studies, and
to librarians and information professionals.  Please get the
README file for details on what files this exhibit contains.  If
you have questions about how to use FTP, speak to your local
computer support person.  If you have questions or comments about
the CONTENT of the exhibit, please write to vatican@kell.loc.gov
while if you have any questions or comments on the SYSTEM please
contact me.

-- K.D. Ellis

Well, we already suffer from street hoardings.  If you don't
watch TV, you are free of commercials there, but if you want
to go from A to B you cannot escape beer ads.

I think the right time to stop this proposal is now.

If this idea goes through, it's the thin end of the wedge.  Soon
companies will be doing larger, and more permanant, billboards in the
sky.  I wouldn't want a world a few decades from now when the sky
looks like Las Vegas.  That would _really_ make me sad.

Coca Cola company will want to paint the moon red and white.  (Well,
if not this moon, then a moon of Jupiter).  Microscum will want to
name a galaxy `Microscum Galaxy'.  Where do we draw the line?
Historically mankind is not very good at drawing fine lines.

I'm normally extremely enthusiastic about all forms of resource
allocation for space research; I think it's the most important
investment possible for mankind in the long run.  But this is not
the way to get the money.

        -ans.

Invitation to the 8th SCIA

The 8th Scandinavian Conference on Image Analysis will be
arranged by the Norwegian Society for Image Processing and
Pattern Recognition (NOBIM) and sponsored by the International
Association for Pattern Recognition (IAPR). The conference
will be held in Tromsoe from 25th-28th May 1993. Tromsoe,
located at latitude 69 degrees N, is Northern Norway's centre
for administration and education.

About the Programme
The scientific programme runs over four days and includes
6 invited speakers, 29 sessions in three parallel tracks
with 127 contributed papers and 4 poster sessions with 44
contributions. The conference covers the following topics:
  - Image Processing and Analysis
  - Pattern Recognition
  - Computer Vision
  - Parallel Algorithms and Architectures
  - Neural Nets
  - Matching Methods
  - Image Compression
  - Remote Sensing
  - Medical and Biological Applications
  - Industrial Applications

Conference Language
The official language of the conference is English.

Invited Talks and Speakers

Segmentation of Range Images Via Data
Fusion and Morphological Watersheds.
Professor Ralph Gonzalez
University of Tennessee, Knoxville

Object Recognition Using Range Images.
Professor Anil K. Jain
Michigan State University

Experiments in Mobile Robot Navigation and Range Imaging.
Dr. Judd Jones
Oak Ridge National Laboratory

Image Compression.
Professor Tor Ramstad
University of Trondheim

Combining Evidence in Dictionary
Based Probabilistic Relaxation.
Professor J. Kittler
University of Surrey

Matching Methods.
Professor A. Sanfeliu
Polytechnic University of Catalonia

Workshop
In connection with the conference, a workshop on contextual
methods in pattern recognition will be arranged on monday
24th by IAPR TC1. For further information concerning the
workshop contact
Torfinn Taxt, Chairman TC1,
Univ. of Bergen,
N-5000 Bergen,
Norway.
Phone: +47 5 20 63 34
Fax: +47 5 20 63 60
E-mail: Torfinn.Taxt@cc.uib.no

Registration Information
The registration fee is 4000 NOK. The fee covers proceedings, entrance
to all oral and poster sessions, exhibition, lunches and coffee
breaks, get-together party, reception and banquet. Fees for
accompanying persons are presented in the registration form.
All payments must be made payable in Norwegian Kroner (NOK)
by SWIFT to "XIANNOKKTRM" or Bank Giro Service at Bank Account:
6420 05 13353, "SAS Conference FORUT", Christiania Bank og
Kreditkasse (Private cheques will not be accepted.) or by the
following credit cards: VISA,  Mastercard, Eurocard, Diners,
Access, American Express. 
Please note: For payment with SWIFT and Bank Giro Service made
             from abroad, please add banking fee of NOK 60,-.
Please remember to state 8SCIA and your name on all money
transfers!

Registration and Information
The Conference Secretariat will be available all four days of
the conference for registration and information
May 24th, 1600:2000, in the SAS Hotel.
May 25th-28th,       at the University.

Exhibition
An exhibition of relevant literature will be arranged.
Publishers are invited to exhibit their products. A visit
to local companies and institutions involved in the field
(mostly remote sensing) will be arranged.

Accommodation
Reservation for hotel accommodation can be made on the
registration form. The 8SCIA Conference Secretariat at
SAS Luftreisebyraa, att. Bodil Lauritsen, will provide
hotel accommodation for the participants.

Social Events
Monday, May 24th:
Get-together party. (included in the conference fee for
delegates, NOK 150,- for accompanying persons)

Tuesday, May 25th
Fishing trip. The tour will last for 5-6 hours and hopefully
the midnight sun will visit us. On board the boat there will
be music, food and drink by choice. We bring fishing rods and
it will be possible to have our own fish prepared on board.
(NOK 400,-)
Spouse programme: Visit by cable car to Storsteinen 420 meters
above sea level, visit to the Arctic Cathedral, and visit to
Tromsoe Museum. (NOK 205,-) 

Wednesday, May 26th
Due to the cancellation of the Svalbard flight we will arrange
a visit to the "Beerhall". (NOK 350,- including beer and food.)
Spouse programme: Visit to a fishfarm in the surroundings of
Tromsoe. (NOK 170,-)

Thursday, May 27th
Banquet. (Included in the conference fee for delegates,
accompanying persons NOK 500,- )
Spouse programme: Visit to the Northern Lights Planetarium and
the Polar Museum. (NOK 180,-)
The spouse programs need a minimum of 15 participants to be
arranged.

Post conference tours with visit to Lyngen or Finnmark and
Norh Cape will also be arranged. For more information about
the social program and the post conference tours see the
registration form and information included with the
registration form.

Weather and Dress
The weather in Tromsoe in late May can be everything from
24 hour sunshine with a maximum temperature of 20 degrees Celsius
to snowstorms with temperatures below freezing. It is
therefore recommended to bring some warmer clothes.

Local Information
The population is approximately 50 000. In Tromsoe you can take
part in many activities from mountaineering in the midnight
sun to late night fun in international restaurants and bars.
An afternoon local beer in the Beerhall of the world's
northernmost brewery is also recommended.

The 8th Scandinavian Conference on Image Analysis (8SCIA) will
be held at the university campus at the world's northernmost
university. There will be conference buses going to the campus
from within walking distances of all the hotels. More detailed
information about the locations and transport will be available
at the conference hotels.

Travel Information
Tromsoe Airport at Langnes is only 7-8 minutes drive from the
centre of Tromsoe. The travelling distance from Oslo is 1 hr
40 minutes. SAS Conference Support Tromsoe offers airticket
services for the conference. In addition to all standard terms
full and reduced fare tickets from Europe and overseas,
(reduced fares require that you stay in Scandinavia the night
between Saturday and Sunday), we can offer additional conference
fares for SAS flights from SAS destinations within Scandinavia,
and reduced fares on Norwegian domestic flights. If you want to
make use of this service please contact Bodil Lauritsen at the
Conference Secretariat.

Conference Secretariat
   SAS Luftreisebyraa Tromsoe
   Att.: Bodil Lauritsen
   P. O Box 437
   N-9001 Tromsoe
   Norway
   Phone: +47 83 10 700
   Fax: +47 83 10 701

Note that reduced airticket fares can not be obtained on flights to 
Scandinavia if you don't stay the night between Saturday and Sunday 
(in front of or after the conference). On the other hand you don't have
to stay that night in Tromso to obtain reduced fares within Scandinavia
(SAS flights).

<------------------------------- cut here ------------------------------>

                           REGISTRATION FORM
          The 8'th Scandinavian Conference on Image Analysis
                Tromso, Norway, May 25th-28th 1993

Please use block letters or type, and fill in one form for each parti-
cipant. Completed registration form for accompanying person is to be
attached to the registration form of the delegate.
                                                              Mr  <>
                                                              Mrs <>

First name and surname:.............................................

Company/Institution:................................................

Title:..................

Mailing address:...................................................

Postal code/Country:...............................................

Telephone:....................Telefax:.............................

Delegate: <>  Accompanying person: <>  (please tick for right category)
     
Workshop on contextual methods in pattern recognition,
                                     Monday, May 24th: <>

Conference fee, delegates:                          NOK 4000,-  ->

Social events  (please tick for participating!)
<> Get-together Party, Monday 24th
   (Included in the conference fee for delegates)
   Accompanying person                              NOK  150,-  -> 
<> Spouse Programme, Tuesday, May 25th  *           NOK  205,-  ->
<> Spouse Programme, Wednesday, May 26th  *         NOK  170,-  ->
<> Spouse Programme, Thursday, May 27th  *          NOK  180,-  ->
<> Boat-trip, Tuesday, May 25th                     NOK  400,-  ->
<> Banquet, Thursday, May 27th 
   Accompanying person                              NOK  500,-  ->
<> Visit to the Beerhall, Wednesday, May 26th *     NOK  350,-  ->
<> Post Conference Tour, Lyngen *                   NOK  895,-  ->
<> Post Conference Tour, Finnmark/North Cape *      NOK 4250,-  ->
(* we need a minimum number of participants to 
   accomplish these tours)

Total amount for my participation:                          NOK ____________

PAYMENT:
Payment can be made by: SWIFT to "XIANNOKKTRM" or 
Bank Giro Service at Bank Account: 6420 05 13353, "SAS Conference FORUT",
Christiania Bank og Kreditkasse, Gronnegt. 80, N-9000 Tromso, Norway.
(Private cheques will not be accepted.) or by credit card:
 VISA <>  Mastercard <> Eurocard <>  Diners <> Access <> American Express <>

Account Number:___________________________ Expiration Date:________________

Signature:____________________________________________

Please note: For payment with SWIFT and Bank Giro Service made from abroad,
             please add banking fee of NOK 60,-.
Please remember to state 8SCIA and your name on all money transfers!

ACCOMODATION:
  (Payment to be made upon arrival)
(Weekend=  Friday-Sunday). 
Deadline for cancellation of the hotel room: 24 hours before arrival.

If you would like us to book your accomodation in Tromso, please fill in:

Date of arrival:____________________  Date of departure:____________________
SAS Royal Hotel      <> Single a 1190,-     <> Double a 1390,-
                         (weekend 750,-)        (weekend 900,-)
Grand Nordic Hotel   <> Single a 1015,-     <> Double a 1175,-
                         (weekend 760,-)        (weekend 880,-)
With Home Hotel      <> Single a  975,-     <> Double a 1085,-
SAGA Hotel           <> Single a  870,-     <> Double a 1045,-
Polar Hotel          <> Single a  680,-     <> Double a  800,-
                         (weekend 450,-)        (weekend 550,-)
Tromso Hotel         <> Single a  680,-     <> Double a  800,-
Skipperhuset Pension <> Single a  330,-     <> Double a  410,-
                                            <> Triple a  480,-
Hotel Nord           <> Single a  300,-     <> Double a  400,-
                                            <> Triple a  500,-
Private Accomodation <> Single a  150,-     <> Double a  200,-

I will arrange accomodation on my own: <>
If my first choice is not available, I wish to stay at:_____________________

Airtickets: SAS Conference Support Tromso offers airticket services for the
conference. In addition to all standard terms full and reduced fare tickets
from Europe and overseas, (reduced fares require that you stay in Scandinavia
the night between Saturday and Sunday), we can offer additional conference
fares for SAS flights from SAS destinations within Scandinavia, and reduced
fares on norwegian domestic flights. If you want to make use of this service
please fill in the following:

Point of departure and return:______________________________________________

Date of departure:___________________  Date of return: _____________________
I will arrange airtickets on my own: <> (Please tick!)

              For further information, please contact:
                Kjell Arild Hogda, 8SCIA Local Chair,
       FORUT Information technology Ltd, N-9005 Tromso, Norway.
           Telephone: +47 83 58622. Telefax: +47 83 82420
                   e-mail: scia@conan.uit.no

             Please forward this registration form to:
          SAS Luftreisebyra Tromso, Att: Bodil Lauritsen
               P.O. Box 437, N-9001 Tromso, Norway,
          Telephone: +47 83 10700. Telefax: +47 83 10701

There's a difference between believing in the existence of an entity,
and loving that entity. God _could_ show me directly that he exists,
and I'd still have a free choice about whether to love him or not. So
why doesn't he?
-- 
Kevin Anthoney                                         kax@cs.nott.ac.uk
            Don't believe anything you read in .sig files.

: My wife wants to publish a newsletter. She's no artist, so she intends to
: use comercial clipart and customise it a bit by drawing a circle or a box
: around it etc. 
:  
: We have MSPublisher for manipulating text, but it is not suitable for doing
: much with graphics, so she needs a more specialised tool. Right now she's
: looking at Corel Draw and Harvard Draw. There seem to be more books in the
: stores on Corel than on Harvard, so she's inclined to go with Corel on the
: basis of popularity. Can anyone give us an informed opinion on which 
: package would be more suitable or if there is an even better alternative
: available? If this is a FAQ, please withhold the flames and just send the
: location of the FAQ document. Thanks.
:  

Go with CorelDraw.  PCMag just did a review a couple of issues ago and Adobe
Illustrator and CorelDraw were picked as the best.

: Three PS's:
:  
: 1) Is it ok to use clip art from Harvard Draw or whatever for commercial
:    purposes?

(other two deleted...)
As far as I know it's okay.  You'd have to read the licence agreement that
comes with the package to be sure.

-- 

OK, with all the discussion about observed playback speeds with QuickTime,
the effects of scaling and so on, I thought I'd do some more tests.

First of all, I felt that my original speed test was perhaps less than
realistic. The movie I had been using only had 18 frames in it (it was a
version of the very first movie I created with the Compact Video compressor).
I decided something a little longer would give closer to real-world results
(for better or for worse).

I pulled out a copy of "2001: A Space Odyssey" that I had recorded off TV
a while back. About fifteen minutes into the movie, there's a sequence where
the Earth shuttle is approaching the space station. Specifically, I digitized
a portion of about 30 seconds' duration, zooming in on the rotating space
station. I figured this would give a reasonable amount of movement between
frames. To increase the differences between frames, I digitized it at only
5 frames per second, to give a total of 171 frames.

I captured the raw footage at a resolution of 384*288 pixels with the Spigot
card in my Centris 650 (quarter-size resolution from a PAL source). I then
imported it into Premiere and put it through the Compact Video compressor,
keeping the 5 fps frame rate. I created two versions of the movie: one scaled
to 320*240 resolution, the other at 160*120 resolution. I used the default
"2.00" quality setting in Premiere 2.0.1, and specified a key frame every ten
frames.

I then ran the 320*240 movie through the same "Raw Speed Test" program I used
for the results I'd been reporting earlier.

Result: a playback rate of over 45 frames per second.

That's right, I was getting a much higher result than with that first short
test movie. Just for fun, I copied the 320*240 movie to my external hard
disk (a Quantum LP105S), and ran it from there. This time the playback rate
was only about 35 frames per second. Obviously the 230MB internal hard disk
(also a Quantum) is a significant contributor to the speed of playback.

I modified my speed test program to allow the specification of optional
scaling factors, and tried playing back the 160*120 movie scaled to 320*240
size. This time the playback speed was over 60 fps. Clearly, the poster who
observed poor performance on scaled playback was seeing QuickTime 1.0 in
action, not 1.5. I'd try my tests with QuickTime 1.0, but I don't think it's
entirely compatible with my Centris and System 7.1...

Unscaled, the playback rate for the 160*120 movie was over 100 fps.

The other thing I tried was saving versions of the 320*240 movie with
"preferred" playback rates greater than 1.0, and seeing how well they played
from within MoviePlayer (ie with QuickTime's normal synchronized playback).
A preferred rate of 9.0 (=> 45 fps) didn't work too well: the playback was
very jerky. Compare this with the raw speed test, which achieved 45 fps with
ease. I can't believe that QuickTime's synchronization code would add this
much overhead: I think the slowdown was coming from the Mac system's task
switching.

A preferred rate of 7.0 (=> 35 fps) seemed to work fine: I couldn't see
any evidence of stutter. At 8.0 (=> 40 fps) I *think* I could see slight
stutter, but with four key frames every second, it was hard to tell.

I guess I could try recreating the movies with a longer interval between the
key frames, to make the stutter more noticeable. Of course, this will also
improve the compression slightly, which should speed up the playback performance
even more...

As many posters have said in as many posts lately, this is just
not true.  For to show no interest in the existence of god takes no
faith at all.  You make the presumption that the _knowledge_ of the 
_possibility_ of something is enough to require faith to render 
that possibilty of no interest.  It is a very different thing to say
that you don't believe something than it is to say that you don't
have sufficent reason to believe something is even interesting to 
think about.  It's not either or.  Sometimes is just something else
more interesting that occupies your mind.  

I agree that faith and dogma are inevitable, but not necessarily
applied to god and religion.  It takes both faith and dogma to
expect the sun to come up every morning, but there is overwhelming
reason every single day, day in and day out, for _everyone_ to put 
his faith and dogma there.  Not so with the christian religion.

Gregg, you haven't provided even a title of an article to support *your*
contention.

You also have no reason to believe it *is* an anti-Islamic slander job, apart
from your own prejudices.

Why, yes.  What's a mere report in The Times stating that BCCI followed
Islamic banking rules?  Gregg *knows* Islam is good, and he *knows* BCCI were
bad, therefore BCCI *cannot* have been Islamic.  Anyone who says otherwise is
obviously spreading slanderous propaganda.

I see.  If someone wants to provide references to articles you agree with,
you will also respond with references to articles you agree with?  Mmm, yes,
that would be a very intellectually stimulating debate.  Doubtless that's how
you spend your time in soc.culture.islam.

I've got a special place for you in my...

...kill file.  Right next to Bobby.  Want to join him?

The more you post, the more I become convinced that it is simply a waste of
time to try and reason with Moslems.  Is that what you are hoping to achieve?

BIOLOGICAL ALCHEMY
                          
                        ( ANOTHER Form of COLD FUSION )

               ( ALTERNATIVE Heavy Element Creation in Universe ) 

               A very simple experiment can demonstrate (PROVE) the 
          FACT of "BIOLOGICAL TRANSMUTATIONS" (reactions like Mg + O 
          --> Ca, Si + C --> Ca, K + H --> Ca, N2 --> CO, etc.), as 
          described in the BOOK "Biological Transmutations" by Louis 
          Kervran, [1972 Edition is BEST.], and in Chapter 17 of the 
          book "THE SECRET LIFE OF PLANTS" by Peter Tompkins and 
          Christopher Bird, 1973: 

               (1) Obtain a good sample of plant seeds, all of the same 
                   kind.  [Some kinds might work better that others.]

               (2) Divide the sample into two groups of equal weight 
                   and number.

               (3) Sprout one group in distilled water on filter paper 
                   for three or four weeks.

               (4) Separately incinerate both groups.

               (5) Weigh the residue from each group.  [The residue of 
                   the sprouted group will usually weigh at least 
                   SEVERAL PERCENT MORE than the other group.]

               (6) Analyze quantitatively the residue of each group for 
                   mineral content.  [Some of the mineral atoms of the 
                   sprouted group have been TRANSMUTED into heavier 
                   mineral elements by FUSING with atoms of oxygen, 
                   hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, etc..]

               BIOLOGICAL TRANSMUTATIONS occur ROUTINELY, even in our 
          own bodies. 
          
               Ingesting a source of organic silicon (silicon with 
          carbon, such as "horsetail" extract, or radishes) can SPEED 
          HEALING OF BROKEN BONES via the reaction Si + C --> Ca, (much 
          faster than by merely ingesting the calcium directly).  
          
               Some MINERAL DEPOSITS in the ground are formed by micro-
          organisms FUSING together atoms of silicon, carbon, nitrogen, 
          oxygen, hydrogen, etc.. 
          
               The two reactions Si + C <--> Ca, by micro-organisms, 
          cause "STONE SICKNESS" in statues, building bricks, etc..  
          
               The reaction N2 --> CO, catalysed by very hot iron, 
          creates a CARBON-MONOXIDE POISON HAZARD for welder operators 
          and people near woodstoves (even properly sealed ones). 
          
               Some bacteria can even NEUTRALIZE RADIOACTIVITY! 
          
               ALL OF THESE THINGS AND MORE HAPPEN, IN SPITE OF the 
          currently accepted "laws" of physics, (including the law 
          which says that atomic fusion requires EXTREMELY HIGH 
          temperatures and pressures.) 

          "BIOLOGICAL TRANSMUTATIONS, And Their Applications In 
               CHEMISTRY, PHYSICS, BIOLOGY, ECOLOGY, MEDICINE, 
               NUTRITION, AGRIGULTURE, GEOLOGY", 
          1st Edition, 
          by C. Louis Kervran, Active Member of New York Academy of 
               Science, 
          1972, 
          163 Pages, Illustrated, 
          Swan House Publishing Co.,
               P.O. Box 638, 
               Binghamton, NY  13902 

          "THE SECRET LIFE OF PLANTS", 
          by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird, 
          1973, 
          402 Pages, 
          Harper & Row, 
               New York
          [Chapters 19 and 20 are about "RADIONICS".  Entire book is 
               FASCINATING! ]
          
          please consult my CITED SOURCES (the two books). 

Good point.  If you haven't read "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer, do
so at your first opportunity.  I don't know why Hoffer is out of style
now, but "The True Believer" is still the best explanation of nutball
behavior ever written.

Interstellar grains are not at all close to blackbodies.  The "large"
grains have sizes of order 0.1 micron and absorb visible light with
fair efficiency.  However, at temperatures below 100 K, 90% of the
thermal emission will be beyond 22 microns, where radiating
efficiency is poor.  (A small antenna cannot easily radiate at long
wavelengths.)  Thus the grains must heat up more in order to radiate
the energy they have absorbed.

Moreover, the IRAS observations had a maximum wavelength of 100
microns.  Grains colder than 30 K will radiate primarily at longer
wavelengths, and IRAS would be relatively insensitive to them.  In
the extreme limit, grains as cold as 5 K will be almost undetectable
by any conceivable observation.

Worse still, IRAS color temperatures are heavily contaminated by a
population of "small" grains.  These grains have only perhaps 50
atoms, and when they are hit by a single photon they heat up to
temperatures of several hundred or 1000 K.  Of course they cool
quickly and then stay cold for a while, but _when they are radiating_
the characteristic temperature is several hundred K.  Even a small
population of these grains can dramatically raise the observed
"average" temperature.

A model for local infrared emission consistent with COBE data has
three components.  These represent scattered radiation from Zodiacal
dust (color temperature 5500 K), thermal emission from Zodiacal dust
(Tc = 280 K), and thermal emission from Galactic dust (Tc=25 K).  At
the ecliptic poles, the emissivities or dilution factors are
respectively 1.9E-13, 4E-8, and 2E-5.  The first two are roughly
doubled in the ecliptic plane.

To find the thermal equilibrium temperature, we add up the dilution
factor times the fourth power of temperature for all components, then
take the fourth root.  In the table below, starlight comes from
Allen's number that stellar emission from the whole sky is equivalent
to 460 zero mag stars with B-V color of 0.75.  No doubt careful work
could do much better.  (The person who suggested starlight had a
dilution factor of E-4 must have been remembering wrong.  We would be
cooked if that were the case.  In any event, the energy density of
starlight comes out about the same as that of the microwave
background, and I believe that to be correct.)

                         Dilution   Temp.   DT^4
Microwave background         1        2.7     53
Galactic dust              2E-5      25        8
Zodiacal dust (emission)   6E-8     280      369
Zodiacal dust (scattering) 3E-13   5500      275
Starlight                  1E-13   5500       92
                                           -----
                                             797

The fourth root of 797 is 5.3 K.  Outside the Solar system, the
result would be 3.5 K.  

I find these results surprising, especially the importance of
Zodiacal dust, but I don't see any serious mistakes.

Some people might think it takes faith to be an atheist... but faith in
what?  Does it take some kind of faith to say that the Great Invisible Pink
Unicorn does not exist?  Does it take some kind of faith to say that Santa
Claus does not exist?  If it does (and it may for some people I suppose) it
certainly isn't as big a leap of faith to say that these things (and god)
DO exist.  (I suppose it depends on your notion and definition of "faith".)

Besides... not believing in a god means one doesn't have to deal with all
of the extra baggage that comes with it!  This leaves a person feeling
wonderfully free, especially after beaten over the head with it for years!
I agree that religion and belief is often an important psychological healer
for many people and for that reason I think it's important.  However,
trying to force a psychological fantasy (I don't mean that in a bad way,
but that's what it really is) on someone else who isn't interested is
extremely rude.  What if I still believed in Santa Claus and said that my
belief in Santa did wonderful things for my life (making me a better
person, allowing me to live without guilt, etc...) and then tried to get
you to believe in Santa too just 'cuz he did so much for me?  You'd call
the men in white coats as soon as you could get to a phone.

I saw a 3 hour show on PBS the other day about the history of the
Jews. Appearently, the Cursades(a religious war agianst the muslilams
in 'the holy land') sparked the widespread persecution of muslilams 
and jews in europe. Among the supporters of the persiecution, were none 
other than Martin Luther, and the Vatican.

Later, Hitler would use Luthers writings to justify his own treatment
of the jews.

Why don't you activist guys cut misc.invest out of this thread?
They didn't offer any shares for sale yet...

Or just use the URT tool: rastorle.

Yes, both it and the newer xli can.

I and many others on a.a have described how we have tried to find god.
Are you saying our efforts have not been sincere?  For all the effort
I have put in, there has been no outward nor inward change that I can
perceive.  What's a sincerely searching Agnostic or Atheist supposed to
do when even the search turns up nothing?

How do you "accept that which you don't know"?  Do you mean that I must
believe in your god in order to believe in your god?

As per various threads on science and creationism, I've started dabbling into a
book called Christianity and the Nature of Science by JP Moreland.  A question
that I had come from one of his comments.  He stated that God is not 
necessarily a religious term, but could be used as other scientific terms that
give explanation for events or theories, without being a proven scientific 
fact.  I think I got his point -- I can quote the section if I'm being vague. 
The examples he gave were quarks and continental plates.  Are there 
explanations of science or parts of theories that are not measurable in and of
themselves, or can everything be quantified, measured, tested, etc.?  

MAC
--

Excerpt From: rek@siss81 (Robert Kaye)

:Just a few contributions from the space program to "regular" society:
:
:1.	Calculators
:2.	Teflon (So your eggs don't stick in the pan)
:3.	Pacemakers (Kept my grandfather alive from 1976 until 1988)

                    Don't forget Tang!  ::smile::

My apologies if this is a re-post - I submitted it on Friday, but 
got a message that my post might not have gone out.  Considering 
the confusing spitting contest over 'rights', (there are TOO 
inalienable rights damn it!  The majority can be just as destructive 
of liberty as a despot), I suspect that my post did not get out 
of my site.    (I ain't saying that dark skies are included in these 
rights, although we can only preserve any rights by exercising them.) 

Anyway, here are my thoughts on this: 

Regards, 
Wm. Hathaway 
Baltimore MD 

marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Kevin Marshall) <1r2eba$hsq@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>

Faith and dogma are dangerous because they cause people to act on
faith alone, which by its nature is without justification.  That
is what I mean by the word ``faith'': belief without justification, or
belief with arbitrary justification, or with emotional (irrational)
justification.

For example, when someone says that God exists, that they don't know
why they believe God exists, they can just feel it, that's faith.

Dogma is bad because it precludes positive change in belief based
on new information, or increased mental faculty.

Faith and dogma are irrational.  The faith and dogma part of any religion
are responsible for the irrationality of the individuals.  I claim that
faith and dogma are the quintessential part of any religion.  If that
makes (the much overused in this context) Buddism a philosophy rather
than a religion, I can live with that.  Science is not a religion,
because there is no faith nor dogma.

Have you noticed that philosophers tend to be atheists?  If a philosopher
is not an atheist, s/he tends to be called a theologian.

A Christian tends to consider Christianity sacred.  Christianity is
a special set of beliefs, sanctioned by God himself, and therefore,
to conceive of changing those beliefs is to question the existence
of That Being Who Makes No Mistakes.  Faith comes into play.  Dogma
comes into play.  ``The lord works in mysterious ways'' is an example
of faith being used to reconcile evidence that the beliefs are flawed.
Sure, interpretations of what ``God said'' are changed to satisfy the
needs of society, but when God says something, that's it.  It was said,
and that's that.  Since God said it, it is unflawed, even if the
interpretations are flawed.

Science, (as would be practiced by atheists) in contrast, has a
BUILT IN defence against faith and dogma.
A scientist holds sacred the idea that beliefs should change to
suit whatever is the best information available at the time, AND,
*AND*, ****AND***, a scientist understands that any current beliefs
are deficient in some way.  The goal is to keep improving
the beliefs.  The goal is to keep changing the beliefs to reflect
the best information currently available.  That's the only rational
thing to do.  That's good philosophy.

Can you see the difference?  Science views beliefs as being flawed,
and new information can be obtained to improve them.  (How many
scientists would claim to have complete and perfect understanding
of everything?  None---it would put them out of a job!)  Religion
views its beliefs as being perfect, and the interpretations of
those beliefs must be changed as new information is acquired which
conflicts with them.

It's easier for someone to kill a person when s/he doesn't require
a good rational justification of the killing.  I don't consider
``he's Jewish'', or ``he was born of Jewish parents'', or
``this document says he's Jewish'' to be good rational justification.

Clinton and the FBI would love for you to convince them of this.
It would save the US taxpayer a lot of money if you could.

----------------------   LightWave3D Mail-List   ----------------------

-- WHAT IS LightWave? --

LightWave3D is part of a suite of programs that come bundled with a
device called the "Toaster" (from NewTek, Inc.) that operates on an
Amiga platform.  The LightWave software (LightWave=LightWave3D and
LightWave Modeler) allows and artist to create three dimensional
photo-realistic images for a variety of purposes.

-- WHY ARE WE DOING THIS? --

This mailing list is for those interested in the LightWave software, how
it operates and in ideas on how to obtain the best quality images
available to them.  The list is for those who own the Toaster and
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package.  We hope to share information, tips, procedures and to bond as
a group.

-- WHAT ARE THE RULES? --

Since LightWave/Modeler are just a part of the Newtek Video Toaster
software, I'm sure we will discuss a few items related to the operation
of the Toaster.  However, we will strive to keep the subject revolving
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Cheers,

This is almost certainly a MacBinary file which is an encoded version
of a mac file so the Resource fork and Data fork get preserved.
You need a program that converts this to a regular file. If this is a
macbinary file, you may have downloaded it in Text mode and is probably
corrupt (if you did). If you're using FTP to transfer it at any point make sure
you type "binary" first.

If you can open the file with a text editor and find
(This file must be converted with Bin....
at the top, it is a BinHex file and can be decoded with
BinHex 4.0 (among other programs).

Brian Kendig first states:

I ask:

Brian Kendig states:

Make up your mind. 

And we do not end perfect either.  We are never perfect.  Can you name
one person, young or old, past or present, that you deem perfect? 
Good luck.

Then you lie to yourself.  You do not know your shortcomings.  I have clearly
shown one of your shortcomings, if not two.  That is, ignorance of the Bible
and the arrogance you demonstrate butchering it without even knowing its 
contents.

Because you have been too prideful to examine the record of him for yourself.
And to demonstate your lack of support for your conclusion, I bet you do not
even know what the word "Christ" means.  Or which prophet used "Christ" to 
describe the "Son of Man". 

Yes.  I agree with that.  So we must learn first.  Read the Bible.  Come
up with our own interpretation.   Evaluate what is being said
and by whom.  Check the history books as well.  Compare someone else's
interpretation with your own.  Then make a judgment.  But I tell you the
truth, 99% of what is being said in the Bible needs interpretation as 
much as a coffee cup needs interpretation.

And remember, the Bible isn't a Guru's Esoteric Guide to Metaphysics.  
It doesn't take a theologian to understand what is being said.    The 
Bible is a bunch of testimonies from people like you and I addressed 
to people like you and I.  These guys wrote down what they saw and heard.  Is it 
their open diary--and they want to tell you something.  And because they
want you to know something, they make it very clear what they want you to
know.   They didn't encouch their ideas in esoteric rhetoric, but in simple
straight-forward language.

You have chosen the road that avoids the Bible.  You have chosen the
road that avoids a confrontation with the living God because that
road doesn't look appealing to you.  You rather build your own road.  One
that goes far away from that confrontation.   But be assured of this,
you will have to confront him one day willingly or unwillingly. 

I see what you mean.  I hear what your saying.  I am not degrading your
life.  But I have heard the same irrational excuses for years.  There is nothing 
new in what you are saying.  And by your own words, you are "spouting off" 
contradictions.   If contradictions give you meaning, then your life must
be sad.

Bingo.  For God so loved the world, he GAVE his only begotton to son
so that whososever belives in him will have ever lasting life.   I look
what God *did*.  He has given his Son, even to his death, so that I can have 
hope in his resurrection and know that life isn't for nothing, but has
glorious purpose.

Because you turn your eyes away from testimony and history.  You choose to
lie to yourself that he doesn't exist, for you ignore what has been said for 
thousands of years.  You sound exactly, almost verbatim, like the Lazarus of 
Jesus's story starting in Luke 16:19.  And the conclusion of that story is a 
bleak one.  Lazarus wound up in hell.  The story ends like this:

      "For if Lazarus doesn't even listen to Moses and the Prophets,
       he won't even believe if a man rose from the dead."

Arrogance at its best.   The fact is, you are not rational.  Several specific
cases  have already been cited.   And again with this new statement, you show more irrationality with regards to heaven.  Jesus does tell you something of what to expect
in heaven.  Jesus expects you to use your brain to believe in him.  Jesus does
not expect you to placate either.  Jesus wants you to willingly come to him, but not
as his grovelling slave, but rather as his brother who will share in his
glorious riches.  Why do you not pick up the Bible and read it for yourself.  
You maintain you have an open mind.  See whether you are lying to yourself for
yourself.

I do understand what you said.   But that's is not what I feel went amiss here.

You missed the point.  Living a "good life" has no eternal consequences.
Once they close the amusement park of life, to you that is the end.  To you, it 
is over.  To you, therefore, your time spent in the amusement park is meaningless. 
It has no eternal consequences to you nor to anyone left on earth. 

But then you contradict yourself.  From a previous post, you said doing evil things 
is bad.  To you, it shouldn't matter if you do evil things or good things.  It is
all meaningless in the end anyway.  So go rob a bank.  Go tell someone
you dislike that he is a dirty rotten slime bag.  What's restraining you?
Life after all, has no eternal consequences and accountability is irrelevant.

At which time, you are truly not the master of yourself.

You have EVERY reason to believe that what Jesus says and the witnesses
of Jesus say are true.  But you choose to be unreasonable and "ignore" the
reasons.  By definition, "ignorance". 

Santa Claus is said to live at the North Pole and have a squad of elves
and flying reindeer.   Ever see a flying reindeer?  Has anyone in human
history seen a flying reindeer?  Has anyone seen a reindeer whose nose 
blinks red?    

On the other hand, are people born in Bethlehem?  Was Nebuchandezzar really
a king?  Was Daniel really one of his court officials?  Were David and Solomon
really kings of Israel and Judah?  Was their really a king called Jehoachin?
Did Sennecherib really attack Jerusalem 600 years before Christ?  Did
Sennacherib really lose his battle--and badly?   Was there really a 
Caiaphas who interrogated Jesus?   Yes, yes, yes . . . history verifies
it.  It is NONFICTION.

Do you have a problem discerning truth from fiction?  Perhaps you
can't evaluate the context of Grimm's Fairy Tales apart from
that of the Scientific American.  I suppose you treat both with equal
truthfulness or equal falsity.  Is this what you are telling me?  Or
is it that just do want to read the Scientific American and find out
that it's not a fairy tale?

Get real.  Have you ever been to Zaire?  Do you have to go there
to be  assured that there really is such a place?  Given your 
irrationality, I take it you have never used a map in your life.

Teflon? A contribution from the space program? Since the French were using
Teflon on household items in the early 1950's, it is unlikely that it was
invented by NASA. As for pacemakers and calculators, again those are
anecdotally connected with NASA.

I see what you are getting at (or at least I think I do).  Correct me if
I am mistaken, but I *think* you are asking me if I still believe that we
should uphold all of the Laws pertaining to capital punishment for such
things as adultery, rape and other heinous crimes.  As you may recall,
Jesus was confronted by this same question in regards to the adultress
who was caught in the act and brought before Jesus.  And His reply, "Let
he who is without sin cast the first stone."  Jesus does not deny the
sentence that is to due for this violation of the Law.  What do you think
of this?

Agreed.  :)
 
Agreed also.  If one is to use the Bible as a reference, one must always be
open to different interpretations.  As a Christian, I have the Spirit of God
to verify what I believe in the Word.  If what the Spirit tells me is not
backed up in scripture then the spirit I am communicating with is not of
God.  After all, Jesus tells us to "test the spirits" to know for sure that
it is from God.

I obey what the Spirit of God tells me to do.  The Spirit will not violate
anything that is written in the Bible because that is the Word of God.  I do
not worship pastors, preachers, my wife, my mother or my father.  What they
tell me does not carry the weight of what God tells me to do and His commands
are rienforced in the Bible.
 
Eternal damnation is the consequence of the choice one makes in rejecting
God.  If you choose to jump off a cliff, you can hardly blame God for you 
going *splat* at the bottom.  He knows that if you choose to jump, that 
you will die but He will not prevent you from making that choice.  In fact,
He sent His Son to stand on the edge of the cliff and tell everyone of what
lies below.  To prove that point, Jesus took that plunge Himself but He being
God was able to rise up again.  I have seen the example of Christ and have 
chosen not to jump and I'm trying to tell you not to jump or else you'll 
go *splat*.
 
You don't have to listen to me and I won't stop you if you decide to jump.
I only ask that you check it out before taking the plunge.  You owe it to
yourself.  I don't like seeing anyone go *splat*.

According to CNN last night (Saturday 4/24/93) he has now found bullets
in two of the corpses, in the head (that would indicate that the bullets
were aimed at killing the humans).

Cheers,
Kent

Correct, we have no parallax measurements on the bursts.

Therefore, we can't tell whether they're slightly extra solar
or not!

(which means that parallax can't tell us whether or not it's real close.)

My comment was off the top of my head; I wasn't aware that it had
already been thought of.  Guess it's true that there's nothing new under
the sun (or in this case, the flying billboards.)

--

...in other words faith in a .357 is far stronger than faith in a 
God providing a miracle for his followers. Interesting. Now, if 
David Korresh was God, why couldn't he use lightning instead of 
semi-automatic rifles? It seems even he didn't trust in himself.

Cheers,
Kent

From whose point of view would you like to know what relativism concludes? 
One of the people involved in the argument, or some third person observing
the arguers?

Someone stated that the Davidian cult should not be associated
with Christianity. Well, I read all those four postings, and I'm
now even more convinced that Davididians are truly Christian
in nature. But sometimes it makes sense to re-label the cult, 
especially if the ugliness is too much to handle.

Cheers,
Kent

With the Southern Baptist Convention convening this June to consider
the charges that Freemasonry is incompatible with christianity, I thought
the following quotes by Mr. James Holly, the Anti-Masonic Flag Carrier,
would amuse you all...

     The following passages are exact quotes from "The Southern 
Baptist Convention and Freemasonry" by James L. Holly, M.D., President
of Mission and Ministry To Men, Inc., 550 N 10th St., Beaumont, TX 
77706. 
 
     The inside cover of the book states: "Mission & Ministry to Men, 
Inc. hereby grants permission for the reproduction of part or all of 
this booklet with two provisions: one, the material is not changed and
two, the source is identified." I have followed these provisions. 
  
     "Freemasonry is one of the allies of the Devil" Page iv. 
 
     "The issue here is not moderate or conservative, the issue is God
and the Devil" Page vi." 
 
     "It is worthwhile to remember that the formulators of public 
school education in America were Freemasons" Page 29. 
 
     "Jesus Christ never commanded toleration as a motive for His 
disciples, and toleration is the antithesis of the Christian message."
Page 30. 
 
     "The central dynamic of the Freemason drive for world unity 
through fraternity, liberty and equality is toleration. This is seen 
in the writings of the 'great' writers of Freemasonry". Page 31. 
 
     "He [Jesus Christ] established the most sectarian of all possible 
faiths." Page 37. 
 
     "For narrowness and sectarianism, there is no equal to the Lord 
Jesus Christ". Page 40. 
 
     "What seems so right in the interest of toleration and its 
cousins-liberty, equality and fraternity-is actually one of the 
subtlest lies of the 'father of lies.'" Page 40. 
 
     "The Southern Baptist Convention has many churches which were 
founded in the Lodge and which have corner stones dedicated by the 
Lodge. Each of these churches should hold public ceremonies of 
repentance and of praying the blood and the Name of the Lord Jesus 
Christ over the church and renouncing the oaths taken at the 
dedication of the church and/or building." Page 53-54.  
 
[Stuff deleted]

Would Mr. Hart please explain how one could get every nation on
earth and every corporation to agree that astronomers own the
night sky without `coercion'.   Remember that not every nation
follows the English common law.   In most countries, for most of
history, it was probably true that the rulers `owned' everything
not explicitly owned by individuals.   Even in North America,
where by the principle enunciated, the aboriginal inhabitants should
have owned everything, when new arrivals wanted to use land
and resources, they just took it over.  In case Mr. Hart hasn't noticed,
there is currently a brutal war going on in Bosnia about who owns what.
Of course, if some friendly super power were to give an international
astronomy organization some anti-satelite missiles and also agree
to defend it if attacked, such a proposal might work, but it
would hardly be non-coercive.

Some of us nutty environmentalists think it might make sense first
to try to mobilize public opinion against advertising in space
and also to use governmental actions (like taxing power, for example)
to discourage them.   This of course would be too coercive for
Mr. Hart.

Usually, you apply

[R]    [ 1     0        1.402   ][Y]
[G] =  [ 1  -0.34414   -0.71414 ][U]
[B]    [ 1    1.772     0       ][V]

after unlevelshifting U and V (subtracting 128 from them).

This matrix multiplication may give results out of RGB space, so you
have to clamp the resulting bytes to [0..255].
The conversion should be done with arbitrary big integers, not floats :)

This applies to YUV data whereas NTSC may have YIQ where a 33 degree
rotation to U/V is buid in.

On 21-Apr-93 in Re: ABORTION and private he..
Not so in PA.  Recently the gender inequity in auto insurance was
removed.  Just a point.

I'm not sure if this is a big issue, but it seems to me like it
might be -- up till now, all >1g forces applied to the mirror and
its mounting (and nearly all =1g forces) have been applied along the
telescope's optical axis, and against the mirror's base.  Reentry
would apply forces along roughly the same axis, but tending to pull
the mirror away from the mount, and the landing would apply on-edge
forces to both the mirror and mount.  It could be that one or both
of these would not survive.

greg
-- 

930425 

Rome was under attack by barbarians, they sent for advice to some Oracle,
and she said Worship Cybele and you'll be saved. They did, they were.

Cybele was the quintessential wiccan goddess, there was Her and her son &
lover, Attis. Yucky idea if you ask me. OK the book says she was Phrygian,
from the neolithic matriarchal society Catal Huyuk (Turkey). Worshipped 1st
as Black Stone (that Kaaba in Mecca ring a bell maybe????) Carried to Rome
in 205BC to save them from Hannibal.

Response:

Is there some relation between the name 'Cybele' and the phenemenon of the
'sibyl'?  Your paragraph above seems to indicate there might be.

My understanding is that Islam was founded on the remains of a goddess
cult or two.  Many Muslims would not like to hear that. ;>

You:

It gets more interesting. Romans called her Great Mother (Magna Mater),
could be the reason why so many of those Mary statues in Europe are black,
prob. IS connected to that Ka'aba they've got in Mecca, 3rd cent. AD She was
supreme Goddess in Lyons, France . . . Attis was castrated and formed into
a pine tree . . . she should be worshiped on 25 Mar . . . in Rome it was
an ecstatic cult, her priests wore drag, worked themselves up in dance and
castrated themselves in order to initiate to her, lived their lives as women.
They wore make up and jewelry and the whole bit.

Only other such primitive transsexualism I know of goes on in India (where
else?) where they do that castration thing under some meditation maybe, I
forget by now...there's a book on that.)

Of course, that excepts that weird Russian / Romanian 18th cent. Xian cult
that did all kinds of self-castration too, I forget their name.

Response:

I'd love to get details or references on any of the above.  My own exploration
of this issue has only extended to a brief examination of the Zuni 'berdache'.
_The Zuni Man-Woman_, by Will Roscoe, University of New Mexico Press, 1991
probably has some interesting things to say about them.  I've yet to
procure it.

Any details or references on:

Ecstatic cults in Rome, India, Russia/Romania (Christian too?) which
exhibit any type of transsexualism or transvestitism, male OR female
(though I expect mostly the former will be found ;>).

Thanks for your interesting posts, Charles. :>

: I agree, I had a hard feeling not believing my grand-grand mother
: who told me of elves dancing outside barns in the early mornings.
: I preferred not to accept it, even if her statement provided
: the truth itself. Life is hard.

Kent,

Truly a brilliant rebuttal. Apparently you are of the opinion that
ridicule is a suitable substitute for reason; you'll find plenty of
company a.a

Knowing Keith, I expect he'll bring the leather accessories.

Better oil it well.  Leather cracks when it dries.

So now you are saying that an Islamic Bank is something other than
BCCI.

Would you care to explain why it was that when I said  "I hope an 
Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI", you called me a childish 
propagandist.

Hi

I would like to know if there is any software, PD or not, who
could produce X11 output of HPGL file on RS/6000. And same kind of
software who could produce hardcopy on postscript and lasetjet.

Thank You

Although the $1 billion scheme is a fantasy (it's an old canard in the space
business called "trolling for billionaires"), there is a good chance that a
much smaller program ($65 million) will pass the 103rd Congress. This is the
Back to the Moon bill, put together by the people who passed the Launch
Services Purchase Act. The bill would incent private companies to develop
lunar orbiters, with vendors selected on the basis of competitive bidding.
There is an aggregate cap on the bids of $65 million.
 
Having a single rich individual paying billions for lunar missions is probably
worse than having the government bankroll a $65 million program, as the Delta
Clipper program has shown (DC-X was funded by SDIO at $59 million). We have a
clear chance of making a lunar mission happen in this decade - as opposed to
simply wishing for our dreams to come true. Please support the Back to the
Moon bill.
 
For more information, please send E-mail with your U.S. postal service
address.

Remember that the UNIX versions of PoV don't create TGA but QRT file
format output by default. +ft is needed to make TGA.

RFD 
                          Request For Discussion                   
                                for the
 
                                  OTG
 
I have proposed the forming of a consortium/task force for the promotion
of NAPLPS/JPEG, FIF to openly discuss ways, method, 
procedures,algorythms,
applications, implementation, extensions of NAPLPS/JPEG standards.
These standards should facilitate the creation of REAL_TIME Online
applications that make use of Voice, Video, Telecommuting, HiRes 
graphics,
Conferencing, Distant Learning, Online order entry, Fax,in addition
these dicussion would assist all to better understand how SGML,CALS,
ODA,MIME,OODBMS,JPEG,MPEG,FRACTALS,SQL,CDrom,cdromXA,Kodak PhotoCD,TCL,
V.FAST,EIA/TIA562,can best be incorporated and implemented to
develop TELEMATIC/Multimedia applications....
 
We want to be able to support DOS, UNIX, MAC, WINDOWS, NT, OS/2 
platforms.
It is our hope that individuals,developers, corporations, Universities,
R & D labs would join in in supporting such an endeavor.
 
This would be a NOT_FOR_PROFIT group with bylaws and charter. Already 
many
corporation have decided to support OTG (Open TELEMATIC Group) so do not 
delay joining if you are a developer
 
An RFD has been posted to form a usenet newsgroup and a FAQ will soon be 
be compose to start promulgating what is known on the subject.
If you would like to be added to the mailist send email or mail to
the address below. 
 
This group would publish an electronic quarterly NAPLPS/JPEG newsletter
as well as a hardcopy version.
We urge all who wants to see CMCs HiRes based applications
& the NAPLPS/JPEG G R O W,  decide to join and mutually benefit from 
this NOT-FOR_PROFIT endeavor.
 
  IMG Inter-Multimedia Group| Internet:  epimntl@world.std.com 
  P.O. Box 95901            |            ed.pimentel@gisatl.fidonet.org 
  Atlanta, Georgia, US      | CIS     :  70611,3703           
                            | FidoNet :  1:133/407          
  
To all that have responded we are trying to acknowledge as soon as
possible. We have really been inundated with org, corp, edu willing
to get involve.
It would be nice if upon responded you can state in what capacity
you are willing to get involve.

I don't have a stat, but, unfortunately, I did read generally that both smoking
and belief in the supernatural (occultish garbage) is on the rise here.

This is very interesting.  I thing the principle is sort of the same though:
all "philosophical" ideas are generally tried out and tested mostly during
college years.  Whether the idea is christian or atheist doesn't always matter.
But I'd like to say it's because atheists are more intelligent  :)

-- 

regards,

--Adam

From a parallel thread.  Much about definitions of bombs, etc. deleted.
[...]

Mathew, I agree.  This, it seems, is the crux of your whole position,
isn't it?  That the US shouldn't have supported Hussein and sold him arms
to fight Iran?  I agree.  And I agree in ruthlessly hunting down those
who did or do.  But we *did* sell arms to Hussein, and it's a done deal.
Now he invades Kuwait.  So do we just sit back and say, "Well, we sold
him all those arms, I suppose he just wants to use them now.  Too bad
for Kuwait."  No, unfortunately, sitting back and "letting things be"
is not the way to correct a former mistake.  Destroying Hussein's
military potential as we did was the right move.  But I agree with
your statement, Reagan and Bush made a grave error in judgment to
sell arms to Hussein.  So it's really not the Gulf War you abhor
so much, it was the U.S.'s and the West's shortsightedness in selling
arms to Hussein which ultimately made the war inevitable, right?

If so, then I agree.

[more deleted.]

Regards,

Could an atheist accept a usage in which religious literature or
tradition is viewed in a metaphorical way?  Of course: this is
essentially what we do with Homer, or with other concepts such as
fate, luck, free will ;-)...  However, there remains the question of
whether the religious literature of -- say -- Christianity is a
particularly *good* set of metaphors for the world today.  It's also
entirely unclear, and to me quite unlikely, that one could take a
contemporary religion like that and divorce the metaphoric potential
from the literalism and absolutism it carries now in many cases.

STS 55     
1 22640U 93 27  A 93120.24999999  .00044939  00000-0  12819-3 0   129
2 22640  28.4643 241.8868 0011265 284.7181 109.3644 15.91616537   580

Kent Sandvik and Jon Livesey made essentially the same response, so this
time Kent's article gets the reply:

This begs the question of whether it ever "started"-- perhaps because
accuracy was always an intention.

It makes little difference if you have eyewitnesses or people one step away
(reporters, if you will).  As I said earlier, the "telephone" metaphor is
innately bad, because the purpose of a game of telephone is contrary to the
aims of writing these sorts of texts.  (Also, I would point out that, by the
standards generally asserted in this group, the distinction between
eyewitnesses and others is hollow, since nobody can be shown to be an
eyewitness, or indeed, even shown to be the author of the text.)

There is no evidence that the "original" texts of either the OT or the NT
are largely lost over time in a sea of errors, "corrections", additions and
deletions.  In the case of the NT, the evidence is strongly in the other
direction: the Textus R. and the Nestle-Aland text do not differ on more
than a low level of significance.  It is reasonable to assume a similar
situation for the OT, based on the NT as a model.

If, if, if....  Anyway, the question was if the gun was identifiable, which
it is.

-Tim

The whole point is, maybe everyone _doesn't want_ to participate.

[...]

Blindly opposing everything with a flavor of religion in it that is
supported by taxpayer money is the only way to keep christianity from
becoming the official U.S. religion.

Not noticing that danger is utterly idiotic.

Anyone from Alabama knows it should be:

Is "The Bear" Catholic?
Does a Pope shit in the woods?

Utah raster toolkit using getx11. Convert your sun raster files (presumably) to 
ppm with the pbm+ toolkit then convert ppm to utah rle format with ppmtorle which
is provided in the toolkit.

I seem to remember that Xloadimage can do 24 bit servers too.

Possibly xwud the x window un-dump program can display 24 bit images; certainly
xwd can grab them.

--
Manchester, UK.  M13 9PL                        Internet: C.C.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk  

I realy like this idea, it would be wonderfull to see such a 
big bright satelite on the night sky. I will even promise to
try to buy whatever product it advertises to help this project.

Please write to Space Marketing and encourage this project.
I sadly dosent have enough money to invest in it.

--

It seems faith is the only tool available for emotional purposes
due to the tragedy. As such it maybe fills a need, however I'm
getting tired to see children dying in pain in Sudan due to lack
of food, and assuming that God takes these sufferers to heaven
after a painful death.

Cheers,
Kent

Oh, yes he did.  You may not agree with his premises, and what he proved may
not apply to "reality" (if such a thing exists), but he certainly proved
something.

Got it in one.  Similarly, a moral relativist will not judge one moral system
to be better than another in every possible circumstance.  This does not,
however, preclude him from judging one moral system to be better than another
in a specific set of circumstances.  Nor does it preclude a set of moral
relativists from collectively judging a moral system, from some set of
circumstances which they all agree they are in.

Eh?  Could you explain this?  Which "that statement" are you talking about?

I still don't quite see what you're trying to say.  I assume by "values" you
mean moral values, yes?  In which case, what do you mean by "real"?  What is
a "real" moral value, as opposed to an unreal one?

Sorry, but in what way is it an infinite regress?  It looks extremely finite
to me.

Sorry, but that's not so.  I can provide a justification for asserting that
the moral system of the terrorist is inferior to that of the man of peace.  I
just can't provide a justification which works in all possible circumstances.

Similarly, I can provide a justification for asserting that bullets move
faster than snails.  That justification won't hold in all possible frames of
reference, but it will hold in almost all the frames of reference I am ever
likely to be in.

I don't think I agree with this.  My saying it *does* make it so *from my
point of view* and according to *my premises*, unless the argument is invalid.
It may indeed not make it so from your point of view, but I never claimed
that it did.  In fact, I don't even claim that you exist enough to have a
point of view.

I was wondering if anyone has ever seen/heard of a utility that converts
any type of image format (gif,tiff,pcx,bmp,jpeg,etc.) to an ascii
representation.  I have seen some very sophiticated art in ascii format, but
never was I able to find the author or any program that may have converted
the data from a picture format.

Any help or leads would be great. Thanks in advance.
Danny Dunlavy

It is kind of absurd, isn't it?  Some players even want more distortion,
especially the Hendrix fans :-)  But there are a lot of them out there
that can only afford the amp, or who like playing music without distortion.
Then there are your hard-core Hendirx fans that want particular *types*
of distortion, i.e., they make it, not their amps.

I didn't see a thing about waste-heat from Babbage, and haven't seen one
of those mechanical TV's in a while, so it's anybodie's guess :-)

-Tommy Mac
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk   \ They communicated with the communists,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \ and pacified the pacifists. -TimBuk3

<Yawn>  Another right-wing WASP imagining he's an oppressed minority. 
Perhaps Camille Paglia is right after all.

"I would not have any argument or problem with a peace-nik if they [...]
stayed out of all conflicts or issues"?  I bet you wouldn't.  You'd love it. 

But what makes you think that sitting back, saying nothing about defense
issues, and letting people like you make all the decisions is anything to do
with "their ideals"?

I get regular questions about gamma correction since I go to great pains to
deal with it properly in xli (the image loader program I maintain).

Here is an explanation I often use to answer these questions.

This might be suitable for inclusion in the FAQ.

	Graeme Gill.

###########################################################################
"A note on gamma correction and images"

Author: Graeme W. Gill
        graeme@labtam.oz.au

Date: 93/5/16

"What is all this gamma stuff anyway ?"
--------------------------------------

Although it would be nice to think that "an image is an image",
there are a lot of complications. Not only are there a whole bunch of
different image formats (gif, jpeg, tiff etc etc), there is a whole
lot of other technical stuff that makes dealing with images a bit
complicated. Gamma is one of those things. If you've ever downloaded
images from BBS or the net, you've probably noticed (with most image
viewing programs) that some images look ok, some look too dark, and some
look too light. "Why is this ?" you may ask. This, is gamma correction
(or the lack of it).

Why do we need gamma correction at all ?

Gamma correction is needed because of the nature of CRTs (cathode
ray tubes - the monitors usually used for viewing images). If you
have some sort of real live scene and turn it into a computer
image by measuring the amount of light coming from each point of
the scene, then you have created a "linear" or un-gamma-corrected
image. This is a good thing in many ways because you can manipulate
the image as if the values in the image file were light (ie. adding
and multiplying will work just like real light in the real world).
Now if you take the image file and turn each pixel value into a voltage
and feed it into a CRT, you find that the CRT _doesn't_ give you
an amount of light proportional to the voltage. The amount of light
coming from the phosphor in the screen depends on the the voltage
something like this:

Light_out = voltage ^ crt_gamma

So if you just dump your nice linear image out to a CRT, the image
will look much too dark. To fix this up you have to "gamma correct"
the image first. You need to do the opposite of what the CRT
will do to the image, so that things cancel out, and you get
what you want. So you have to do this to your image:

gamma_corrected_image = image ^ (1/crt_gamma)

For most CRTs, the crt_gamma is somewhere between 1.0 and 3.0.

If that is all it is, why does it seem so complicated ?

The problem is that not all display programs do gamma correction.
Also not all sources of images give you linear images (Video cameras
or video signals in general). Because of this, a lot of images
already have some gamma correction done to them, and you are 
rarely sure how much. If you try and display one of those images
with a program that does gamma correction for you, the image gets
corrected twice and looks way to light. If you display one of those
images with a program that doesn't do gamma correction, then it will
look vaguely right, but not perfect, because the gamma correction is
not exactly right for you particular CRT.

Whose fault is all this ?

It is really three things. One is all those display programs
out there that don't do gamma correction properly. Another is
that most image formats don't specify a standard gamma, or
don't have some way or recording what their gamma correction is.
The third thing is that not many people understand what gamma
correction is all about, and create a lot of images with varying
gamma's.

At least two file formats do the right thing.
The Utah Graphics Toolkit .rle format has a semi-standard way of recording
the gamma of an image. The JFIF file standard (that uses JPEG compression)
specifies that the image to be encoded must have a gamma of 1.0 (ie. a
linear image - but not everyone obeys the rules).

Some image loaders (for instance xli - an X11 image utility)
allow you to specify not only the gamma of the monitor you
are using, but the individual gamma values of image you are trying to
view. Other image viewers (eg. xv another X11 image program) and
utilities (eg. the pbm toolkit) provide ways of changing the gamma
of an image, but you have to figure out the overall gamma correction
yourself, allowing for undoing any gamma correction the image has,
and then the gamma correction you need to suite your CRT monitor.

[ Note that xv 2.21 doesn't provide an easy way of modifying the
gamma of an image. You need to adjust the R, G and B curves to the
appropriate gamma in the ColEdit controls. Altering the Intensity
in the HSV controls doesn't do the right thing, as it fails to
take account of the effect gamma has on H and S. This tends
to give a tint to the image. ]

How can I figure out what my viewer does, or what gamma my screen has ?

The simplest way to do that is to try loading the file chkgamma.jpg
(provided with xli distribution), which is a JFIF jpeg format file
containing two grayscale ramps. The ramps are chosen to look linear
to the human eye, one using continuous tones, and the other using
dithering.  If your viewer does the right thing and gamma corrects
images, then the two ramps should look symmetrical, and the point
at which they look equally bright should be almost exactly half
way from the top to the bottom. (To find this point it helps if
you move away a little from the screen, and de-focus your eyes a
bit.)

If your viewer doesn't do gamma correction, then left hand ramp will have
a long dark part and a short white part, and the point of equal brightness
will be above the center.

If your viewer does have a way of setting the right amount of gamma correction
for a display, then if the equal brightness point is above center increase the
gamma, and decrease it if it is below the center. The value will usually be
around 2.2 

[with xli for instance, you can adjust the display gamma with the
-dispgamma flag, and once you've got it right, you can set the DISPLAY_GAMMA
environment variable in your .profile]

How do I figure out what the gamma of an image is ?
-------------------------------------------------

This is the most tricky bit. As a general rule it seems that a lot of
true color (ie. 24 bit, .ppm .jpg) images have a gamma of
1.0 (linear), although there are many about that have some gamma
correction. It seems that the majority of pseudo color images
(ie. 8 bit images with color maps - .gif etc.) are gamma corrected
to some degree or other.

If your viewer does gamma correction then linear images will
look good, and gamma corrected images will look too light.

If your viewer doesn't do gamma correction, then linear images will
look too dark, and gamma corrected images will ok.

Why Linear images are sometimes not such a good thing

One of the reason that many high quality formats (such as
Video) use gamma correction is that it actually makes better
use of the storage medium. This is because the human
eye has a logarithmic response to light, and gamma correction
has a similar compression characteristic. This means images 
could make better use of 8 bits per color (for instance),
if they used gamma correction. The implication though, is that
every time you want to do any image processing you should
convert the 8 bit image to 12 or so linear bits to retain
the same accuracy. Since little popular software does this, and
none of the popular image formats can agree on a standard
gamma correction factor, it is difficult to justify gamma corrected
images at the popular level.

If some image formats can standardize on a particular gamma,
and if image manipulation software takes care to use
extra precision when dealing with linearized internal data,
then gamma corrected distribution of images would be a good thing.

(I am told that the Kodak PhotoCD format for instance, has a
standard gamma correction factor that enables it to get the
highest quality out of the bits used to hold the image).

The temperature of intergalactic space (or intercluster or 
intersupercluster space) would be very, very close to the microwave 
background temperature, 2.73 kelvins.  I recall that in interstellar 
space in our neighborhood of the galaxy it's something like 4 K.

Is that what you were looking for?

"Liberate" is the way an invader describes an invasion, including, if
I'm not mistaken, the Iraqi liberation of Kuwait.  Never invaded
Nicaragua?  Only with more word games: can you say "send in the
Marines?"  

Oh, good: word games.  If you let the aggressor pick the words,
there's scarcely ever been a reprehensible military action.

That's a convenient technique, much seen on alt.atheism: define those
who disagree with you according to a straw-man extreme that matches
virtually nobody.

Very noble and patriotic.  I'm sure the fine young Americans who
carpet-bombed Iraqi infantry positions from over the horizon,
destroyed Iraq's sewer and water infrastructure from the safety of the
sky or further, or who bulldozed other Iraqi infantry into their
trenches [or more importantly the commanders who ordered them to] were
just thrilled to be risking death (if not risking it by much) in the
defense of the liberty of ... well, wealthy Kuwaitis.  Can't have
those oil-fields under a tyrant's heel if that tyrant is antagonistic
to US interests... 

Having pigeon-holed "peace-niks" (in this context, "people who
disagree with me about the conduct of the Gulf War") into
"peace-at-all-cost-hitler-supporting-genocide-abetting-wimps", you can
now express righteous indignation when "they" refuse to fit this mold
and question the conduct of the war on legitimate terms.  HOW DARE
THEY!

Yes, hypocrisy indeed!  Those violent peace-niks!  (Care to list an
example here?)

Wow: instant '80's nostalgia!  [Of course, "peace-nik" itself is a
'50's Cold War derogatory term equating those who promote pacifism
with Godless Pinko Communists].  Yes indeed, I felt my freedoms
mightily threatened by Iraq... 

RIght now the HST sevicing mission is listed as 11 days.  before
it was listed as 9 days.  they just kicked up the number of spacewalks
to 5,  after simulations indicated  that it was not do-able in 4.  

After all the space walking,  they are going to  re-boost the HST's
orbit.  I think right now  it's sitting  at 180 miles up,
they would like  220.  I don't know the exact orbit numbers.
I know when HST was first flown, it was placed in the Highest
possible Shuttle orbit. 

Now the shuttle can cary a thing called the EDO pallet, or extended
duration orbiter pallet.  It's mostly  LOX/LH for the fuel cells
and RCS gear,  plus more O2  and canisters for the life support
re-breathers.  maybe more nitrogen too.

THe limit on space-walking is a function of suit supplies (MASS)
and Orbiter Duration.   

In order to perform the re-boost of the HST, the OMS engines
will be fired for a long period.  Now the shuttle is a heavy
thing.  THe HST isn't light either.  THe amount of OMS fuel
needed to fly both up is substantial.   a small booster
carried up and used to boost HST on it's own will weigh significantly
less then the OMS fuel required to Boost  both HST and SHUttle,
for a given orbital change.  

From what i understand,  the mass margins on the HST missions are
tight enough they can't even carry extra Suits or MMU's.

Now if they used a small tug,  I would bet,  just a wild guess,
that the savings on amss margin  would allow carrying the
EDO pallet,  extra suits,  more consumables,  parts for the
flaky FGS sensor,  parts for the balky solar  electronics,

and still enough for a double magnum of champagne.

or the HST could even get placed into  some sort of medium orbit.
The reason they want a high orbit, is less antenna pointing,
and longer drag life.

a
Whatever it is,  the problem in the tilt array is a big constraint
on HST ops.

From article <1993May1.092058.1@aurora.alaska.edu>, by pstlb@aurora.alaska.edu:

Since this was posted on comp.ai, I assume there is an AI angle to this.  Hacking is
what AI students do when they're really supposed to be doing something else, e.g.
thesis research & write up, getting their supervisors' pet programs to run properly,
etc.  No-one gets much glory for hacking, and no-one gets any money out of it.
Producing good free software requires an enormous investment of time & resources that
not many people can, or want to, afford - particularly during a recession.

In addition, over the last 10 years, I think there has been a de-emphasis on producing
running programs in AI research, and a greater emphasis on more formal approaches to
problem-solving.  Students have been proving theorems instead of writing programs.
At a conference a year or two ago, Johann de Kleer suggested that everyone should
'Get back to the keyboard' and write more programs that demonstrate their ideas -
and I have to say I'm inclined to agree.

(I don't claim to be a superhacker, but I don't think that invalidates my remarks.
And I'm sure this isn't the whole story.)

We need terrain data for a visualization research currently taking place
in Tel-Aviv university. We have two databases that we are currently working
on, but we would like to work on more databases, possibly more complicated 
and ones that will give prettier images.

Before I describe what kind of data we need, let me mention that we are 
going to present a paper titled "Photo-Realistic Imaging of Digital Terrains"
which describes the research and the results, in the EUROGRAPHICS'93 
conference in Barcelona, this september. We are going to show a video-tape 
with some of our results, so any good data that we will receive will be 
presented in the tape, with a mention of the donator.

We are working on databases consisting of aerial or satelite photographs, 
and terrain elevation maps (DTM). 
Each database consists of a 2D array of height values (any data format can
be used for each value), and a corresponding 2D array of color values (can
be gray-level, 256-color value or full 24-bit R/G/B values. Other format can
also be used). We work on 512X512 and 1024x1024 resolution databases.

If anybody has access to this kind of data, or knows where we can get such
data files, please respond in this news group, or - better - email us
directly :

amit@math.tau.ac.il    (Amit Shaked), or
danny@indigo.bgu.ac.il (Daniel Cohen)

Look be consistent. First you post something that seems to suggest that you see
xv being an 8 bit program as some sort of error. 
So I post and asy it is not a bug, it is meant to be like that. 
So you post and say it is not a bug, you never said it was, I have misunderstood
etc.
Now you are saying:

If you would make up your mind what you are claiming it would make the
discussion a *lot* easier.

Eh? Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here. I am aware that English is
not your native language and have tried hard to fathom your meaning, but this
paragraph defeats me.

Yes *as I originally said*, global changes are easily possible.

But this statement contradicts what you said earlier: 

No I don't think so actually. 

You were talking about loading a 24 bit image into xv (by quantising),
manipulating the colours in the colour editor, then somewhow applying these
changes to the 24 bit file when you exit xv. Xv lets you edit individual
colours. Where is this sudden jumping off the topic?

Yes I am aware there is no colourmap in a 24 bit file!!

I do not understand what this statement is supposed to mean.

???
What are you saying
???

Ah! now we see thew problem! First you want to extend xv to allow editing of 8
bit previews of 24 bit images. Then I point out problems with this. Now you are
saying there is no problem because you, personally, happen not to use those
parts of the program that cause the problem!!

Not sure what you are saying here. Certainly one can make local changes.

Yes that is one possible approach. I would find a program that took such an
approach clumsy, however.

Well here we agree - you have not thought it through very much. You don't seem
to have a consistent point to make and contradict yourself from one post to the
next. OK, we all have off days - perhaps you should step back and think this one
through.

As I said in the last post, JPEG is a compression algorithm. It is a way of
saving disk space by trading off quality against compression. I fail to see what
the problem is. You have not proposed any workable alternatives.

Speak for yourself. You are the *only* person I have met or spoken to who,
having quantised a 24 bit image down to 8 bits, expects this process to somehow
reverse when the file is saved; keeping all modificvations that heve been made
to the 8 bit image palette.

Perhaps that is why you yused the singular?

Look, next time you import a 24 bit image into xv look carefully at the main
control panel - it tells you how many colours have been allocated to the 8 bit
image. XV makes it abundantly clear that you are not editing the original 24 bit
file. You are the *only* person who claims this is confusing.

Is a design error the same as a bug? ;-)

Read my lips. XV is a program for viewing and modifying 8 bit images. It lets
you import other images. It shows, I would say, a good deal of thought about the
human interface. And everyone else seems to use it happily for the purpose it
was designed for. It makes no false claims.

If you would come up with a solid, logical, well argued and lucid description of
precisely how these proposed extensions would work, feel free to post them. So 
far, you have not done so.

Argh!! After all this, a comment like that. `Very easily'. OK, go ahead and code it
if it is so easy.

Or alternatively, look up the terms `import' and 'non-reversible transformation'.

I think this is a bit of an exageration.

What you are actually saying is, you got into a lift (elevator, if you are in
the states ;-) ) and mistakenly pressed the down button to go up. Everyone else
had no problem. Now you are trying to sue the manufacturer...

you bet

Mostly. Leaving aside the language issue however, it betrays some very wooly
thinking (as you yourself admit) which is the same in any language. Go think
some more.

--

I know it's only wishful thinking, with our current President,
but this is from last fall:

     "Is there life on Mars?  Maybe not now.  But there will be."
        -- Daniel S. Goldin, NASA Administrator, 24 August 1992

All consipiracy theories aside, (they are watching though :-)), will NASA 
try to image the Cydonia region of Mars where the "Face
" is? If they can image it with the High resolution camera, it would 
settle the FACE question once and for all. I mean, with a camera that 
will have a pixel resolution of about 6 feet, we'd know whether all this 
stuff is real or imagination. 

Come on JPL and NASA folks, try to image it and settle this thing.

I'm interested in obtaining the highest possible image capture in a 
MS-Windows application. The resulting image must go to print and high resolution
is the name of the game. I'm familiar with (and unhappy with) composite video
capture technology. What kind of resolution can I get out of an SVHS signal? 
What about RGB (and who makes RGB cameras)? Does anyone have any experience
with digital cameras? 

Any help at all would be greatly appreciated.

William Brandsdorfer            | UUCP:    !uunet!lehman.com!wbrand
Lehman Brothers                 | INET:    wbrand@lehman.com
388 Greenwich St.               | Voice:   (212) 464-3835
New York, N.Y. 10013            | 

-- 
Kevin makes a good point here, and when that theists miss all-too-often.  That
is, the belief in a diety is not necessarily coupled with agreement/love of
that diety, so really they have yet another bit of convincing to do just beyond
belief.
I guess the standard argumet goes something like: well, once you believe in
God, you know God is love, and you will choose to love him-- if it wasnt so
widely accepted and asserted it'd be laughable...

--Adam

Why don't you ask the approx. two million British Muslims who break
it five times a day and have never ever been prosecuted under it?

Then ask how easy it is to hold a Christian church service in Saudi
Arabia.

Charles Boesel writes
(sci.image.processing,comp.graphics), wdm@world.std.com (Wayne Michael)  

Illustrator for SGI is a shipping product. Adobe and SGI have announced that  
Photoshop is being ported to SGI machines. A simillar announcement has been  
made by Adobe and Sun for Sun platforms. No dates have been announced to the  
best of my knowledge.

: :  So what is Kibology? Chopped liver?
: Kibo Himself summed it up by saying "Kibology is not just a religion, it is
: also a candy mint ... and a floor wax." I personally think that it is more
: like Spam Clear.
: :   

I can (and do) take religious writings as a metaphor for life.
I do this with all sorts of fiction, from Beowolf to Deep Space Nine.
The idea is to not limit yourself to one book, screen out the good 
stuff from what you read, and to remember that it is all just a story.  
You sound Buddist to me :^)

Well,  you better not get the shuttle as your launch vehicle.

and most ELV's have too  far of a backlog for political messages.

If during the campaign season,  the candidates for president had
launched one,  right around now we'd  be getting a launch
for PEROT 92.

and if they had used the shuttle,  we'd be seeing launches
for NIXON now more then ever.

This was all badly reported in the news.  There is no evidence that
signs of life found in old rock predate putative planet-sterilizing
events.  Rather, the argument was that if life arose shortly the last
sterilizing event, then it must be easily formed.  The *inference*
was that life originated before and was destroyed, but there was
no evidence of that.

However, even this argument is flawed.  It could well be that origin of
life requires specific conditions (say, a certain composition of the
atmosphere) that do not last for long.  So, perhaps life formed
early only because it would have had no other chance to do so,
not because it was likely that life would originate under those

Yeah.  In a fire that reportedly burned hotter than 1000 degrees-- hot
enough to make the bodies still unidentifiable-- the authorities found
a gun that was recognizably fully-automatic and state of the art.
Isn't that CONVEEEENIENT?

Mike Adams suggested discussions on long-term effects of spaceflight
to the human being.  I love this topic, as some of you regulars know.

So, having seen Henry's encouraging statement about starting to talk
about it; I shall.

I feel that we as a community of people have unique resources
to deliver to the world a comprehensive book which can elaborate
on the utility of spaceflight to fields which are as divergent 
as medical intensive care, agriculture, environmental protection, and 
probably more.  I do not believe that the general public understands
the impact of spaceflight on the whole of society.  In the absence
of such knowledge, we see dwindling support of the world's space effort.

I believe that we as a group have the responsibility to not only
communicate amongst ourselves, but also with others through print media.

A well-orchestrated and technically oriented analysis of life science
variables required to support long-duration spaceflight (like long
expenditions to the moon or Mars) would be entertaining and educational
to the general public.  The objective of such an effort would be to 
compile resources and publications from accepted scientific and technical
journals which would address each major life science area.  In addition,
ideas for further research and development could be put forward for
the general public to ponder...allowing the general public to take
part in the excitement of exploration.

Individuals interested should be willing to devote an hour per week
to running literature searches and finding journal articles.  In addition,
we need to obtain the assistance of personnel from within the halls
of NASA and industry.

I have appreciated the positive responses to date and I am personally
eager to start this project.  Perhaps we could start with debate regarding
how best to grade the viability of various technologies for application
to spaceflight.

KS> This is the story of Kent, the archetype Finn, that lives in the 
KS> Bay Area, and tried to purchase Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason". This
KS> man was driving around, to Staceys, to Books Inc, to "Well, Cleanlighted
KS> Place", to Daltons, to various other places.

KS> When he asked for this book, the well educated American book store
KS> assistants in most placed asked him to check out the thriller section,
KS> or then they said that his book has not been published yet, but they
KS> should receive the book soon. In some places the assistants bluntly
KS> said that they don't know of such an author, or that he is not 
KS> a well known living author, so they don't keep copies of his books.

KS> Such is the life and times of America, 200+ years after the revolution.

Sigh, now I don't feel so bad.  Searching for a copy in bookstores has
been a habit of mine for at least two years now.  I spend a *lot* of 
time browsing through bookstores, new and and used, and I've not once
seen a copy.  Now, I know, all I do is pick up a phone and order the
darned thing, but come on, this is America and he's one of the founding
fathers.  And no one carries his books?  Sure, you can find "Common
Sense" but I think that's because it's required reading for most
colleges.  

I did find one hole-in-the-wall bookstore where the owner said that they 
usually carry one or two copies, but that they were currently out. I haven't
been back since so I don't know if he was telling the truth or not.

sigh...

But it's STILL HAPPENING.  That's the entire point.  Only last month, John
Major hailed it as a great victory that he had personally secured a sale of
arms to Saudi Arabia.  The same month, we sold jet fighters to the same
Indonesian government that's busy killing the East Timorese.

It's all very well to say "Oops, we made a boo-boo, better clean up the
mistake", but the US and UK *keep* making the *same* mistake.  They do it so
often that I can't believe it's not deliberate.  This suspicion is reinforced
by the fact that the mistake is an extremely profitable one for a decrepit
economy reliant on arms sales.

No, I thought both were terrible.

I am familiar with the project.  It is the Onboard Shuttle Flight
Software Project.  This software controls the Space Shuttle During
all dynamic phases as well as on-orbit.
It has ultra-high reliability and extremely
low error rates.  There have been several papers published on the
subject and I'll collect some references.  There may be an
article in the IBM Systems Journal Late '93, early '94.

There is no magic formula.  We did it with dedicated and disciplined
folks who worked to put together a process that finds and removes errors
and is corrected based on errors that "escape".  We present a
one day overview of our process periodically to interested folks.
The next one is May 19th in Washington, D.C.  I can fax specifics
to those who are interested.

However, to underestimate the power of religion creating historical
events is also a big misunderstanding. For instance, would the
30-year-old war have ever started if there were no fractions
between the Protestants and the Vatican?

Cheers,
Kent

I have many icons in IconEdit and PBIcon format and I would like to 
convert them to PBM, PGM or PPM format. Do you know the formats of
IconEdit or PBIcon?

I like this statement, though for my own reasons.  Cost comparisons depend
a lot on whether the two options are similar, and *then* it becomes very
revealing to consider what their differences are.  Can Soyuz launch the
Long Exposure Facility?  Course not.  Will the Shuttle take my television 
relay to LEO by year's end?  Almost certainly not, but the Russians are
pretty good about making space accessible on a tight schedule.

Comparing S and SS points up that there are TWO active space
launcher-and-work-platform resources, with similarities and differences.
Where they are in direct competition, we may get to see some market
economics come into play.

tombaker

pmy> ...Anyway, I've often wondered what business followers of Christ
pmy> would have with weapons.

fc> Didn't Christ tell his disciples to arm them selves, shortly
fc> before his crusifiction? (I believe the exact quote was along the
fc> lines of, "If you have [something] sell it and buy a sword.")

  "If you have a purse" it was.

fc> Certainly, Christ said,

fc> "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to
fc> send peace but the sword.  For I am come to set a man at variance
fc> against his father, and the daugher against her mother..."

fc> [Matthew 10 34-35]

  Yes, He said this, but the sword that Jesus brought was the sword of
the Word of God, which divides between those that believe, and those
who do not, even right down a family.

Mark
--
Mark TOWFIQ | Business/Urgent: towfiq@Microdyne.COM  +1 508 392 9953 (fax 9962)
	      Other:   towfiq@Justice.Medford.MA.US  +1 617 488 2818

Well, yeah, but unlike TIFF they all do substantially more than encode
rectangular bitmaps.  And the others are hardly trouble free.  I hear that
it is quite common for CGM implementations not to interoperate.

The annoying thing about TIFF is that is that along with the 50 useful
options, there are 100 stupid options.  The most egregious example is that
rather than picking a byte order and bit order and using it consistently
in all TIFF files, byte and bit order are options and all TIFF readers on
all machines, no matter what their natural byte order, have to be prepared
to do byte swapping.  There are four slightly different FAX formats --
again, any one of them would have been adequate.  RGB images can be stored
by pixel or by component, complexity without function, etc, etc.  I also
note that the TIFF doc says that Aldus' experiments show that LZW reliably
compresses as well or better than any of the FAX formats, suggesting that
none of the FAX formats are really useful.

What's worse, a lot of the formats aren't even implemented very well,
e.g., LZW limits code words to 12 bits, while 14 or 16 bits would have
provided substantially better compression.  And the LZW method compresses
bytes rather than pixels.

But the absolute worst thing about TIFF is that any vendor can register
proprietary TIFF codes and formats without even publicly documenting them.
This means that there is NO WAY to write a TIFF reader that can reliably
read all incoming TIFF files.  Some standard.

Didn't expect to find you in the Devil's role, Stephen, but these are
the times that try men's souls.
Nine months, as I understand it.  No doubt this accounts for a 
significant amount of the time as government efficiency in spending
our tax dollars would certainly seek its absolute minimum in such
an event.  But my gut instinct says there is more at hand.  It took
some careful preplanning to demonize D.K. to such an extent.  The
attack meshes well with more restrictive gun control legislation
that seems to be the agenda of the day.  It also fits a pattern of
increased government interference in personal religious beliefs.
[Randy Weaver is now on trial].

No quarrel here.  The BIG BANG theory is always apt at appropriation
time.  They just don't have to possess a single motive.
 
I certainly think publication of the warrant undermines the government's
case since it makes no claims of illegal action.  Therefore the federal
judge had reason to seal it.  But I am reminded of Senator Frank Church's
remark that "secrecy is the trademark of a totalitarian government."
There is rarely sufficient motive to seal a warrant in a nation of
free people.

How can I argue with irrefutable logic?  I have long suspected that
the government has become a mindless machine and now you go and
confirm my worst fears!  Has it become a BEAST that is programmed
simply to say "Kiss my toe and you get your piece of the pie?"
I suspect bugs in the program arise when agents or those who love
this critter have independent thoughts.
 
And watching Terminator II.

Yes, 186 seeds for a new Republic.  And 86 for...?
    Rev. 11:10...And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice
		over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one
		to another; because these two prophets tormented them
		that dwelt on the earth.

Stephen, have you sensed that some have been rejoicing lately....?

I know its semantics, but the "no-op" _doesn't_ do anything.  The
Command Loss Timer is simply looking for a command, any command.  A
"no-op" is simply a spacecraft command that drops bits into the big
bit bucket in the sky.  "No-op" also get used as timekeepers to provide
millisecond delays between command sequences (used on the thruster preps
on GRO, er, Compton) and to verify command links at the beginning of
TDRS events.  All in all, a rather useful command.  And, an intelligent
FDC test on Galileo (the Command Loss Timer).

I recently watched a an episode of "The Old West" a TV show on the 
Discovery Channel (or perhaps the A&E Network), the one hosted by Kenny
Rogers.  This episode was all about the Mormons and how they settled Utah,
etc.

A large portion of the broadcast was about the "Mountain Meadows Massacre".
The program very specifically pointed out that Brigham Young knew nothing
about the incident until long after it had happened (before telegraph), and
it occured as a result of several men inciting a bunch of paronoid Moromn
settlers into what amounted to a mob.  All participants in the incident were
prosecuted and eccomunicated from the LDS Church.

I suggest you watch a rerun of that episode (they play them over and over) 
and see what they (non-Mormons) have to say about it.

Lance

   Path: dime!ymir.cs.umass.edu!nic.umass.edu!noc.near.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!waikato.ac.nz!ldo
   From: ldo@waikato.ac.nz (Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Waikato University)
   Newsgroups: comp.multimedia,comp.graphics
   Date: 26 Apr 93 05:09:15 GMT
   References: <1993Mar31.074502.3590@aragorn.unibe.ch>  <1993Apr16.212441.34125@rchland.ibm.com>
   Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand
   Lines: 67
   Xref: dime comp.multimedia:6358 comp.graphics:32606

   OK, with all the discussion about observed playback speeds with QuickTime,
   the effects of scaling and so on, I thought I'd do some more tests.

   First of all, I felt that my original speed test was perhaps less than
   realistic. The movie I had been using only had 18 frames in it (it was a
   version of the very first movie I created with the Compact Video compressor).
   I decided something a little longer would give closer to real-world results
   (for better or for worse).

   I pulled out a copy of "2001: A Space Odyssey" that I had recorded off TV
   a while back. About fifteen minutes into the movie, there's a sequence where
   the Earth shuttle is approaching the space station. Specifically, I digitized
   a portion of about 30 seconds' duration, zooming in on the rotating space
   station. I figured this would give a reasonable amount of movement between
   frames. To increase the differences between frames, I digitized it at only
   5 frames per second, to give a total of 171 frames.

   I captured the raw footage at a resolution of 384*288 pixels with the Spigot
   card in my Centris 650 (quarter-size resolution from a PAL source). I then
   imported it into Premiere and put it through the Compact Video compressor,
   keeping the 5 fps frame rate. I created two versions of the movie: one scaled
   to 320*240 resolution, the other at 160*120 resolution. I used the default
   "2.00" quality setting in Premiere 2.0.1, and specified a key frame every ten
   frames.

   I then ran the 320*240 movie through the same "Raw Speed Test" program I used
   for the results I'd been reporting earlier.

   Result: a playback rate of over 45 frames per second.

   That's right, I was getting a much higher result than with that first short
   test movie. Just for fun, I copied the 320*240 movie to my external hard
   disk (a Quantum LP105S), and ran it from there. This time the playback rate
   was only about 35 frames per second. Obviously the 230MB internal hard disk
   (also a Quantum) is a significant contributor to the speed of playback.

   I modified my speed test program to allow the specification of optional
   scaling factors, and tried playing back the 160*120 movie scaled to 320*240
   size. This time the playback speed was over 60 fps. Clearly, the poster who
   observed poor performance on scaled playback was seeing QuickTime 1.0 in
   action, not 1.5. I'd try my tests with QuickTime 1.0, but I don't think it's
   entirely compatible with my Centris and System 7.1...

   Unscaled, the playback rate for the 160*120 movie was over 100 fps.

   The other thing I tried was saving versions of the 320*240 movie with
   "preferred" playback rates greater than 1.0, and seeing how well they played
   from within MoviePlayer (ie with QuickTime's normal synchronized playback).
   A preferred rate of 9.0 (=> 45 fps) didn't work too well: the playback was
   very jerky. Compare this with the raw speed test, which achieved 45 fps with
   ease. I can't believe that QuickTime's synchronization code would add this
   much overhead: I think the slowdown was coming from the Mac system's task
   switching.

   A preferred rate of 7.0 (=> 35 fps) seemed to work fine: I couldn't see
   any evidence of stutter. At 8.0 (=> 40 fps) I *think* I could see slight
   stutter, but with four key frames every second, it was hard to tell.

   I guess I could try recreating the movies with a longer interval between the
   key frames, to make the stutter more noticeable. Of course, this will also
   improve the compression slightly, which should speed up the playback performance
   even more...

   Lawrence D'Oliveiro                       fone: +64-7-856-2889
   Computer Services Dept                     fax: +64-7-838-4066
   University of Waikato            electric mail: ldo@waikato.ac.nz
   Hamilton, New Zealand    37^ 47' 26" S, 175^ 19' 7" E, GMT+12:00

I'm afraid I missed the start of this thread, but there are three factors that
can significantly affect QuickTime's playback speed that you may want to take
into account:

(1) playback bit depth (things are fastest when you play a
movie back at the bit depth it was compressed for, this is usually 8 or 16
bit, but other depths are (of course) possible).

(2) type of scaling (QT is optimized for "double size" scaling, other scaling
factors hit peformance much harder).

(3) playback window position (MoviePlayer limits your window placement choices
to advantagous pixel boundaries by default, I'm not sure about Premiere).

Any combination of those can radically alter playback performance.  Image size
is, of course, another biggie.  Giving the movie player lots of RAM can also
make a real difference.

Forgive me if these were mentioned earlier in the thread...

-Peter Lee

Are you so ignorant that you have never heard of _Archaeopteryx_?

The special creation "theory" is nothing but holes. Please show me a
species poofed into existence by your god. I have never seen this.

Well, there *is* the standards document.  From the FAQ:

12) How to order standards documents.

The American National Standards Institute sells ANSI standards, and also
ISO (international) standards.  Their sales office is at 1-212-642-4900,
mailing address is 1430 Broadway, NY NY 10018.  It helps if you have the
complete name and number.

Some useful numbers to know:

CGM (Computer Graphics Metafile) is ISO 8632-4 (1987).  GKS (Graphical
Kernel System) is ANSI X3.124-1985. ...

You might also want to look at gplot from the folks at the Pittsburgh
Supercomputer Center.  Fish around at calpe.psc.edu.  It is pretty
nifty.

							spl

Well here's how I prepared.  I got one of those big beach
umbrellas, some of those gel-pack ice things, a big Coleman cooler
which I've loaded up with Miller Draft (so I like Miller Draft,
so sue me), a new pair of New Balance sneakers, a Sony
Watchman, and a couple of cartons of BonTon Cheddar Cheese
Popcorn.

I haven't decided what to wear yet.  What does one wear to an
eternal damnation?

If re-boosting the HST by carrying it with a shuttle would not damage it,
then why couldn't HST be brought back to earth and the repair job done
here?

Is it because two shuttle flights would be required, adding to the alredy
horrendous expense?

Gruss,
Dr Bruce Scott                             The deadliest bullshit is
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Plasmaphysik       odorless and transparent
bds at spl6n1.aug.ipp-garching.mpg.de                 -- W Gibson

[I write:]
#>>> Imagine that 1000000 Alterian dollars turn up in your bank account every
#>>> month. Suppose further that this money is being paid to you by (a) your 
#>>> big-hearted Alterian benefactor, or (b) a bug in an Alterian ATM.  Let's
#>>> suppose that this is a true dichotomy, so P(a)+P(b)=1. Trouble is, Alterius 
#>>> is in a different universe, so that no observations of Alterius are possible
#>>> (except for the banks - you couldn't possibly afford it ;-)
#>>> 
#>>> Now let's examine the case for (a).  There is no evidence whatsoever that
#>>> there is any such thing as a big-hearted Alterian benefactor. However,
#>>> P(exists(b-h A b)) + P(not(exists(b-h A b)) = 1. On the grounds that 
#>>> lack_of_evidence_for is evidence_against when we have a partition like
#>>> that, we dismiss hypothesis (a).
#>>>
#>>> Turning, therefore, to (b), we also find no evidence to support that
#>>> hypothesis.  On the same grounds as before, we dismiss hypothesis (b).
#>>>
#>>> The problem with this is that we have dismissed *all* of the possible
#>>> hypotheses, and even though we know by construction that the money 
#>>> arrives every month, we have proven that it can't, because we
#>>> have dismissed all of its potential causes.
#
#>> That's an *extremely* poor argument, and here's why.
#>>
#>> Premise 1: "...this money is being paid to you by [either] (a) your big-
#>>             hearted Alterian benefactor, or (b) a bug in an Alterian ATM".
#>> 
#>> Thus each monthly appearance of the bucks, should it happen, is an
#>> observation on Alterius, and by construction, is evidence for the
#>> existence of [either the benefactor or the bug in the ATM].
#>> 
#>> Premise 2: no observations on Alterius are possible.
#
#>     #> (except for the banks - you couldn't possibly afford it ;-)
#>
#> You forgot to include this.  My premise is actually:
#>
#> Premise 2:  The cardinality of the set of possible observations on Alterius
#>             is one.
#
#>> This is clearly contradictory to the first.
#
#> Not if you state it properly.
#
#>> Trouble is, on the basis of premise 2, you say that there can be no evidence
#>> of [either the benefactor or the bug], but the first premise leads to the
#>> conclusion that the appearance of the bucks, should it happen, is evidence
#>> for the existence of [either the benefactor or the bug].
#>> 
#>> Voila, a screaming contradiction.
#
#[with my highlights - SC]
#> But in a strawman argument. There is only evidence for OneOf(Benefactor,Bug).
#> No observation to distinguish Benefactor from Bug is possible. That is
#> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
#> not evidence for Bug, and neither is it evidence for Benefactor. Nor
#> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
#> is true to say that this hypothetical universe appears exactly as
#> if there were no Benefactor/Bug (two statements, both would be false).
#
#This is still contradictory. It reduces to
#
#  (1): Alterian dosh arriving in my account is due to [benefactor or bug].
#
#  (2): this is not evidence for [benefactor], neither is it evidence for
#       [bug] (meaning that it doesn't lend more weight to one than to the
#       other)
#
#  (3): therefore no evidence can exist for [benefactor] and no evidence
#       can exist for [bug].
#
#But (3) relies on a shift in meaning from (2). When you say (paraphrased)
#in (2) that this is not "evidence for [benefactor]", for example, what you
#mean is that it's no *more* evidence for [benefactor] than it is for [bug].

Yes, that's what I mean.

#In (3), however, you've shifted the meaning of "evidence for [benefactor]"
#so that it now means `absolute' "evidence for [benefactor]" rather than
#`relative' "evidence for [benefactor]" w.r.t. [bug].

Not really, I meant evidence that would tend to one over the other.  I
think this is just a communications problem.   What I am trying to say,
in my clumsy way, is that while I buy your theory as far as it relates
to theism making predictions (prayer, your 'Rapture' example), I don't
buy your use of Occam's razor in all cases where A=0.

In my example, one couldn't dismiss
[benefactor] or [bug] on the grounds of simplicity - one of these is necessary
to explain the dosh.  I brought up the 'one-by-one dismissal' process to
show that it would be wrong to do so.  From what you're saying in this
post, it seems you agree, and we're talking at cross-purposes.

#(3) is still in contradiction to (1).
#
#Some sums may help. With B = benefactor, b = bug, d = dosh arrives in account:
#
#  (1) implies  P(B+b | d) = 1
#
#Assuming that P(Bb | d) = 0, so it's either the benefactor *or* a bug
#which is responsible if the bucks arrive, but not both, then
#
#   P(B+b | d)   =   P(B | d) + P(b | d)
#
#so
#
#   P(B | d) + P(b | d)  =  1
#
#but (3) implies that
#
#   P(B | d)  =  0  and  P(b | d)  =  0.

No, this isn't what I meant.  P(B | d) = 0.5 and P(b | d) = 0.5, with
necessarily no new observation (we've already seen the dosh) to change
those estimates.  I was trying to say (again, in my clumsy way) that
it would be _wrong_ to assign 0 probability to either of these.  And that's
precisely what use of the Razor does in the case of gods - gods are
one class of hypothesis (there are many others) belonging to a set of
hypotheses _one_of_which_ is necessary to explain something which otherwise 
would _not_ be satisfactorily explained.  It can be thrown out or
retained on grounds of non-rational preference, not of science or statistics.   
Alternatively, one could chuck out or retain the lot, on the grounds
that the answer can't be known, or that the notional probability estimates
are effectively useless, being equal (agnosticism/weak atheism).

#> As they do when the set M is filled by "the universe is caused by x",
#> where x is gods, pink unicorns, nothing, etc.  - and no observation
#> tends to one conclusion over the other.
#
#Exactly the point I was making, I think. So we don't "throw out" any of
#these, contrary to your assertion above that we do.

Some people do, Simon, and they think they are doing excellent science.
My sole point was that they aren't.

#>> Only observations which directly contradict the hypothesis H[i] (i.e. x
#>> where P(x | H[i]) = 0) can cause P(H[i]) to go to zero after a finite
#>> number of observations. Only in this case do we get to throw any of the
#>> hypotheses out.
#
#> Exactly my point, though I may have been unclear.
#
#You said the diametric opposite, which I guess is the source of my confusion.

I was merely trying to illustrate the incorrectness of doing so.

#> What I'm trying to say is that while you are correct to say that absence of
#> evidence can sometimes be evidence of absence, this does not hold true for
#> all, or perhaps any, versions of theism - and it isn't true that those for
#> which it does not hold can be discarded using the razor.
#
#On the contrary, those for which it does not hold are *exactly* those which
#can be discarded using the Razor. See my post on the other branch of this
#thread.

Then you seem to be guilty of the contradiction you accuse me of.  If
the razor holds for gods, then it holds for all like hypotheses.  Which
means that you're assigning P(x | H[i]) =0 for all i, though we've already
established that it's not correct to do so when SUM(P(x|H[i]))=1 over
all i.

#> Simply put, anyone who claims to have a viable proof of the existence or
#> non-existence of gods, whether inductive or no, is at best mistaken, and
#> at worst barking mad.
#
#Luckily I make no such claim, and have specifically said as much on numerous
#occasions. You wouldn't be constructing a strawman here, would you Frank?
#Although that doesn't, of course, rule out my being barking mad in any case
#(I could be barking mad in my spare time, with apologies to Cleese et al).
#
#But I think you miss the point once again. When I say that something is
#"evidence against" an hypothesis, that doesn't imply that observation of
#the said something necessarily *falsifies* the hypothesis, reducing the
#estimate of P(H | data) to zero. If it *reduces* this quantity, it's still
#evidence against H.

No, I got that.  I'm talking about the case when A=0.  You're clearly
correct when A!=0.   And I'm not constructing a strawman (though it's
certainly possible that I've misunderstood what you're saying).  However,
by any standards, a system that says when A=0, gods are highly unlikely,
and when A!=0 gods can be dismissed using the Razor, is a system purporting
to be an inductive proof that gods either don't exist, or are unnecessary
to explain any or all phenomena.  In my experience, systems such as this
(including those which purport to prove that gods exist) always contain
a fallacy upon close examination.  If that's not what you're saying, then
please put me straight.

In other words, the right of might.

In other words, he can do it, he did it, and your in no position to
argue about it.
 
In other words, you better do what this God wants you to do, or else!

When I went thru all the spinning chair tests at JSC the PhD in charge 
was Milt Reshke but the technician who strapped me in and, on occasion,
inserted the "probe" (needle) was named Bev Bloodworth.

Dear netters

I am wondering about the accident of Koresh. I have heard different 
explanations.
Without any explanation about your opinions and believes,
 please kindly tell me:

     1)- What was Koresh talking about?. (Or  what was his message)
     2)- What was the main reason that Government went in war with
             Koresh?
(Some say that due to Tax payment, ....)

Thanks in advance for your historical explanation.

We are interested in constructing a reentry vehicle to be deployed from a
tether attached to an orbiting platform.  This will be a follow on to our
succesful deployment of a 20 kilometer tether on the March 29 flight of
SEDS (Small Expendable Deployment System), which released an instrumented
payload that reentered the earth's atmosphere and burned up over the west
coast of Mexico.  This time we want to make a payload that can be recovered.
We want to build it from "off the shelf" technology so as to do this as
quickly and inexpensively as possible.  We want to be able to track the
payload after it has deployed its parachute.  An idea we have is to put the
same kind of radio beacon on it that is used with SARSATs (Search and Rescue
Satellites).  It would turn on with the opening of the parachute and aid in
tracking.  These beacons are known in the marine industry as EPIRBs
(Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon).  They are rugged (they have to
be to survive a ship wreck!) and cheap.  We have several questions:

1.  What is the world authority regulating the use of SARSAT beacons.  Are
there multiple authorites, i.e. military and civilian?

2.  What are the regulations regarding the use of SARSAT signals.  Can they
be used for one of a kind situations with a long lead time of warning the
relevant authorities, or are they strictly reserved for life threatening
emergencies?

3.  What is the coverage of SARSATS?  Are they in LEO with only intermittant
coverage of a fixed position on the earth, or are they in geosynchronous
orbit?

4.  Is there an industry organization governing the use and manufacture of
these transponders?

Please post replies here or send E-mail to me at:
	fennell@well.sf.ca.us
Thanak you very much for any assistance you can provide.

Can anyone give me information or lead me to electronic information (not
books; I'm too poor...) regarding programming the standard graphics modes?
320x200x4 and 640x200x2 are easy enough, but I'm not so sure about the
rest.  Something about planes or something, and writing to ports and the
like, but I don't know the numbers or anything -- for the 16 color modes, I
think.  If I'm wrong, let me know.  Also, 320x200x256 is just one byte/pixel;
that's easy enough, but are there any other ways to write to the screen,
perhaps bytes at a time, or something like that?

Of course, I'd appreciate any information about any mode....  which reminds
me of another question -- do the SuperVGA modes work the same, generally,
as the normal 16 and 256 color modes, or is not only the mode numbers
for various cards different, but the methods for writing to the screen
different as well?

Thanks for any help you can give me...  I'm developing a screen class for
C++ and find myself searching for information.  Oh, I do have Ralf Brown's
Interrupt List, which has given me tons of invaluable information already.
It just doesn't go into the screen programming details (except for the
read/write pixel BIOS calls...

Thanks again.

Wouldn't bother me.  I'd laugh.  It wouldn't work -- the surface of the
Moon is *already* pretty dark, and the contrast would be so poor you
couldn't possibly see it.  The only reason the Moon looks bright is that
it's in bright sunlight against an otherwise-dark sky.  Evidently Heinlein
didn't know that...

I've tried 72105.1351@compuserve.com

Bounced twice....  Any other guesses?

I read a mesg. somewhere on GENIE about Intel coming out with a 
graphics standard called PCI, which would supplant VESA standards.  Is
this a rumor, or is there some substance to it. If any of y'all have
heard of this "standard" please e-mail me on how I might obtain more info

DN> I think I took on this 'liar, lunatic, or the real thing'
DN> the last time. Or was it the time before?  Anyway, let
DN> somebody else have a turn.  I can't debate it with a
DN> straight face.  Or perhaps for something completely
DN> different we could just ridicule him or gather up all the
DN> posts from the last two times we did this and email them to
DN> him.  As an aside, can you believe that somebody actually
DN> got a book published about this?  Must have been a vanity
DN> press.

I would recomend to anyone out there to visit your local Christian bookstore
and become aware of the stuff they sell.	Quite
interesting.  Most of the stuff is far from intelectual.  (About the level of
Chick pamphelets...)  If it is a common fundie bookstore, it should have at
least one section about how you should hate Wiccans, Pagans, Catholics,
Mormons, rock musicians, and anyone else who is not as fanatical as them. 
(Hate for the "Love of God(tm)"!) It is even more interesting watching the
people who frequent such places.  Very scary people.  They hear voices from
"God" telling them whatever they want to hear.  (If they were not Christians,
most of them would be locked away.  Maybe this is why Federal money was
reduced to Mental institutions by the reagan administration...	Had to get
their religious leaders out...)

"Where would Christianity be if Jesus got eight to fifteen years, with time
off for good behavior?"
	 New York State Senator James H. Donovan on Capitol Punishment

                   Alan

I am looking for some fast polygon routines (Shaded or Texture
Mapped) in ASM (compile with MASM) or in Turbo Pascal (compile with
TP6). It has to be able to run on a 286, but does not have to look
super fast on a 286, but must look good on a 386.  

If anyone has any such code could you please mail it to me. Or tell
me where it can be got. 

--

Hi,
  I need to know if there is a 256 color graphics mode that allows multiple
pages.  I want something like mode 0x10 (640x350x16 2 pages).  I have been
experimenting with graphics by calling the BIOS with borland turbo c.  I
feel like I am flying blind in this area, and could use all the help that
you can give.

  Thanks,
	Ivan......

I don't think so.  The assumption is there.  If it turns out that
their software has a virus, then it is up to you to prove that fact
to a court to get any damages.  You are theoretically suppossed to 
be able to get damages for that, but you have to give some evidence
that the virus came from that software.  But since the computer
company is the defendent, they are uninvolved until proven guilty.

Please, not Pascal!  NOOOOO!! ;)

George William Herbert sez:

I like your optimism, George.  I don't know doots about raising that kind
of dough, but if you need people to split the work and the $700M, you just
give me a ring :-)  Living alone for a year on the moon sounds horrid, but
I'd even try that, if I got a bigger cut.  :-)

-Tommy Mac

Original to: wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM
G'day wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM

20 Apr 93 18:17, wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM wrote to All:

 wAC> wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson), via Kralizec 3:713/602

 wAC> The Apollo program cost something like $25 billion at a time when
 wAC> the value of a dollar was worth more than it is now. No one would
 wAC> take the offer.

If we assume 6% inflation since 1969, that $25B would be worth about $100B
GD reckon a moon mission today could cost only $10B. Thats a factor of ten
reduction in cost. It might be possible to reduce that number futher by
using a few shortcuts ( Russian rockets?).   Asuming it gets built, I think
the Delta Clipper could very well achive the goal.

ta

Ralph

A word of warning for those of you registering for SIGGRAPH '93.
I just received my registration form back in the mail with the
envelope marked "Return to sender. Moved - Left No Address.
Closed PO Box". The address I used to register for SIGGRAPH '93
is the one printed on the registration form:

     ACM SIGGRAPH '93
     PO Box 95316,
     Chicago, IL 60694-5316

I printed the envelope in my best printing, honest but evidently
SIGGRAPH '93 has skipped town or moved?

I ended up faxing my registration to: 312-321-6876. I hope that
number is real!

Perhaphs what Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are now is the result of the
natural evolution of a "successful" hacker.  Either you make money, go
to jail (Lee Feldenstein [sp?]), or just fade away as "Oh, that's uncle
so-and-so who *really* likes computers...".

What a "computer hacker" is and does will change as long as the definition
of the word "computer" continues to change.

hi netters,

	I'm doing a project which is about image analysis.  Firstly, I
have to find out any restrictions or limitations on the colour display
on various kind of workstations, they are DECstation, HP, Amiga, Apollo.

	Secondly, I read from some graphic texts that image is displayed
in 24 bites(please point out to me if I got it wrong).  But, the images
which I will deal with are displayed in 16 bites by the software they
are using currently.  So, will there be any problems to display them
under X-windows in the future? Because we are thinking to implement the
GUI by X-windows for our project

	Is there any person here can help me to solve the problem or
query above?  Or, give me some advice or suggestion where I can find
them out. 

	Please send me an e-mail if there are any.  Thanks in advance.

						Yours
			
						Christine Chan

Please help with MPEG description or sources:decoders &
encoders. Great thanks in advance.

I read it when it first came out, and the controversy broke. Put my name
on the waiting list at the library (that way if the book was really
offensive, none of my money would find its way to the author or
publisher), and read it, "cover to cover" (to use a phrase that seems
popular here right now).

And I *liked* it. The writing style was a little hard to get used to, but
it was well worth the effort. Coming from a similar background (Rushdie
grew up in Bombay in a muslim family, and moved to England; I grew up in
New Delhi), it made a strong impression on me.  (And he used many of the
strange constructions of Indian English: the "yaar" at the end of a
sentence, "Butbutbut," the occasional hindi phrase, etc.)

At the time I still "sorta-kinda" thought of myself as a muslim, and I
couldn't see what the flap was all about. It seemed clear to me that this
was allegory.  It was clear that he described some local prostitutes who
took on the names and personae of Muhammed's wives, and had not (as my
grandfather thundered) implied that Muhammed's wives were prostitutes; in
short, every angry muslim that had read even part of the book seemed to
have missed the point completely.  (And I won't mention the fact that the
most militant of them had never even seen the book. Oops, I just did!)

Perhaps in a deep sense, the book is insulting to Islam, because it
exposes the silliness of revealed religion - why does an omnipotent deity
need an agent? She can come directly to me, can't she? How do we know that
Muhammed didn't just go out into the desert and smoke something? And how
do we know that the scribes he dictated the Quran to didn't screw up, or
put in their own little verses? And why can Muhammed marry more than four
women, when no other muslim is allowed to? (Although I think the biggest
insult to Islam is that the majority of its followers would want to
suppress a book, sight unseen, on the say-so of some "holy" guy. Not to
mention murder the author.)

I had much the same response when I tried to talk about the book. A really
silly argument - after all, how many of these same people have read "Mein
Kampf?" It just made me wonder - what are they afraid of? Why don't they
just read the book and decide for themselves?

Maybe the reaction of the muslim community to the book, and the absence of
protest from the "liberal" muslims to Khomeini's fatwa outrage, was the
final push I needed into atheism!

-s

Could anyone tell me the format of GIF files.  I would like to know how I 
could determine the size of the picture.  Also, are gif files in compressed
format?  How many bits store pixel color information?  

(This is probally a simple question, but I couldn't find it in the FAQ.)

email responses would be perferred

Hei Pei.

I can not help you directly width you problem, but there may be
intermediate roads to take to get to the IFF. I am using a converter
that can take IGES, IIF, DXF -> IGES, MILESPEC I IGES, MILESPEC II IGES, 
IIF, MILESPEC I IIF, MILESPEC II IIF  and DXF.

IIF is IBM IGES FORMAT. There may be converters out there that can handle
IGES to IFF. Hope this was to any help. By the way the converter is part
of the IGES Processor/6000 package from IBM and it runs on RS/6000 AIX.

[ Deletia; in case anybody hadn't noticed, Frank and I are debating
  "objective morality", and seemingly hitting semantics. ]

      It may be that, being a non-native English-speaker, I've
misunderstood your usage of "objective", and tried to debate something
you don't assert; my apologies. I'm at a loss to imagine what you really
do mean, though.

      Wrong point. The age of the universe has no direct effect on
humanity's sticking power, in the way the moral system of a society can
have.

      I'm saying the Universe has a "real age", because I see evidence
for it; cosmology, astronomy and so on. I say this age is independent of
people's opinions of it, because I know different people have a lot of
different opinions in the matter, yet empirical tests consistently seem
to give roughly the same results.

      I can't see how it does that. Put a creationist to the task of
performing the tests and calculations, see to it (s)he makes no blatant
errors in measuring or calculating, and the result of the test will be
the same.

      Because logically consistent empirical tests contradict their
opinion. If those tests were just my opinion, then their own tests
(which would then be their opinion) would contradict mine, even if we
conducted said tests in identical manner, no? They don't, which I take
as showing these tests have some validity beyond our opinion of them.

      Map the activity of nerves and neural activity, if you mean
physical pain. You have a sharp point, I'll give you that; but you still
haven't given me a way to quantify morality.

      We agree. Hypotheses, however, can change; I hold that there is no
"ultimate hypothesis of morality" towards which these changes could
gravitate, but that they could be changed in any way imaginable,
producing different results suitable for different tasks or purposes.

      "Better" and "worse" are (almost?) always defined in the context
of a moral system. Your prediction will _always_ be correct, *within*
*that* *moral* *system*. What you need now is an objective definition of
"good" and "bad"; I wish you luck.

      Isn't that what _you're_ doing, when assuming an "objectively
real" morality? Besides, what _exactly_ is provably wrong with my
statement?

      Claiming there is no objective morality is suddenly a positive
claim? Besides, I think I _can_ lend some credence to my claim; ponder
different individuals, both fully functional as human beings and members
of society, but yet with wildly different moral codes. If morality was
"objective", at least one should be way off base, but yet hir
'incorrect' morality seems to function fine. How come?

      As for producing these individuals, it might be easiest to pick
them from different societies; say, an islamic one and some polynesian
matrilineal system, for example (if such still exist).

[ deletia - testing for footballs on desks ]

      One thing is "good" under some circumstances, because we wish to
achieve some goal, for some reason. Other times we wish to do something
else, and that thing is no longer so clearly "good" at all.

      Some things are hard to make "good", because we'd seldom if ever
wish to achieve the sort of goal mass murder would lead one into. Still,
the Aztecs were doing fine until the Spaniards wiped them out.

      I almost always know what "good" means; sometimes I even know why.
I never claim this "good" is thereby fixed in stone, immutable.

[...]

      Yes, me too, and I've tried a thing or two down that line; it
doesn't look good for objective values to me at all.

My wife wants to publish a newsletter. She's no artist, so she intends to
use comercial clipart and customise it a bit by drawing a circle or a box
around it etc. 
 
We have MSPublisher for manipulating text, but it is not suitable for doing
much with graphics, so she needs a more specialised tool. Right now she's
looking at Corel Draw and Harvard Draw. There seem to be more books in the
stores on Corel than on Harvard, so she's inclined to go with Corel on the
basis of popularity. Can anyone give us an informed opinion on which 
package would be more suitable or if there is an even better alternative
available? If this is a FAQ, please withhold the flames and just send the
location of the FAQ document. Thanks.
 
Three PS's:
 
1) Is it ok to use clip art from Harvard Draw or whatever for commercial
   purposes?
 
2) We have a 600 dpi Laser Jet 4 printer. What would be a good scanner for
   reading in paper clipart?

Last-modified: 2 May 1993

New since version of 18 April 1993:
  * New version of XV supports 24-bit viewing for X Windows.
  * New versions of DVPEG & Image Alchemy for DOS.
  * New versions of Image Archiver & PMView for OS/2.
  * New listing: MGIF for monochrome-display Ataris.

in the news.answers archive at rtfm.mit.edu (18.70.0.226).  By FTP, fetch

drawings.

X Windows:

XV (shareware, $25) is an excellent viewer for JPEG, GIF, and many other
image formats.  It can also do format conversion and some simple image
manipulations.  It's available for FTP from export.lcs.mit.edu (18.24.0.12),
file contrib/xv-3.00.tar.Z.  Version 3.00 is a major upgrade with support
for 24-bit displays and many other improvements; however, it is brand new
and still has some bugs lurking.  If you prefer not to be on the bleeding
edge, stick with version 2.21, also available from export.  Note that
version 2.21 is not a good choice if you have a 24-bit display (you'll get
only 8-bit color), nor for converting 24-bit images to JPEG.  But 2.21 works
fine for converting GIF and other 8-bit images to JPEG.  CAUTION: there is a
glitch in version 2.21: be sure to check the "save at normal size" checkbox
when saving a JPEG file, or the file will be blurry.

file contrib/xloadimage-3.03.tar.Z.  xli is a variant version of xloadimage,

MS-DOS:

The current version, 2.5, is available by FTP from sunee.uwaterloo.ca
(129.97.50.50), file pub/jpeg/viewers/dvpeg25.zip.  This is a good basic

A demo version of Image Alchemy version 1.6.2 is available from Simtel20 and
mirror sites (see NOTE below), file msdos/graphics/alch162.zip.

OS/2:

/pub/os2/2.x/graphics/imgarc12.zip
    Image Archiver 1.02: image conversion/viewing with PM graphical interface.
/pub/os2/2.x/graphics/pmview85.zip
    PMView 0.85: JPEG/GIF/BMP viewer.  GIF viewing very fast, JPEG viewing

Amiga:

Atari ST:

For monochrome ST monitors, try MGIF, which manages to achieve four-level
grayscale effect by flickering.  Version 4.1 reads JPEG files.  Available
from atari.archive.umich.edu, file /atari/Graphics/mgif41b.zoo.

I have not heard of any other free or shareware JPEG-capable viewers for
Ataris, but surely there must be some by now?  Pointers appreciated.

sent.

	M_]C_X ...

	M:'-I ...

at best.)

I think that if a theist were truly objective and throws out the notion that
God definitely exists and starts from scratch to prove to themselves that
the scriptures are the whole truth then that person would no longer be a
theist. 

You're missing something here.  There are people who convert from
non-theism to theism after being brought up in a non-theist household.  (I
don't have any statistics as to how many though.  That would be an
interesting thing to know.)  I think that religion is a crutch.  People are
naturally afraid of the unknown and the unexplainable.  People don't want
to believe that when they die, they are dead, finished.  That there is
nothing else after that.  And so religion is kind of a nice fantasy.
Religion also describes things we don't know about the universe (things
science has not yet described) and it also gives people a feeling of
security... that if they just do this one thing and everything will be ok.
That they are being watched over by a higher power and its minions.  This
has a very high psychological attraction for quite a few people and these
people are willing to put up with a few discrepancies and holes in their
belief system for what it gains them.  This is why I think it's kind of
useless to try too hard to convert theists to atheism.  They are happy with
their fantasy and they feel that other people will be happy with it too
(they can't accept the fact that there are people who would rather accept
the harsh reality that they are running from).

Anyway, I'm getting kind of carried away here.  But my point is that theism
doesn't have to be ingrained into a child's mindset for that person to grow
up as a theist (although this happens far too often).  Theism is designed
to have its own attractions.

Hi Everyone,

	I am looking for papers/articels/books or any other
	source of information about Parametric/Variational
	Design in CAD/Solid Modeling.

	Any suggetions/references would be greatly appreaciated.

	Jayesh

I'm planning on writing several classes to build a raytracing/radiosity library
on top of, and i'm wondering if anythink like this is freely available on the
net before i go to it. What i need is classes like rays, vectors, colors,
shaders, surfaces, media, primitives, worlds (containing primitives) and
views/images.

Please post or mail.
-- 

The LAW of RETRIBUTION
          
               Violent crime, racism, bigotry, domestic abuse, rape, 
          police brutality and oppression, human rights violations, 
          etc., ETC., continue to get worse and worse in spite of more 
          and more man-made laws on all levels from local ordinances to 
          international law. 
          
               The man-made laws are NOT working. 

               "WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE!"  
          Perpetrators remain IGNORANT of The LAW--a universal, cosmic, 
          and Spiritual Law--The "LAW of RETRIBUTION" or "KARMA": 
          
               "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a 
          man soweth, that shall he also reap."  Galatians 6:7, KJV. 
    
               "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity; 
          he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.  
          Here is the patience and faith of the saints."  Revelation 
          13:10, KJV. 
    
               "What goes around comes around."

               This LAW of the Universe is just as real as the physical 
          law that for every action there is an equal and opposite 
          REaction. 
    
               It is the ENFORCEMENT, the TEETH, behind The "GOLDEN 
          RULE": "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." 

               ALL perpetrators in the present will become VICTIMS in 
          the future, most likely in a FUTURE INCARNATION.  Most 
          victims in the present were PERPETRATORS in the past, usually 
          during a PREVIOUS LIFE. 
          
               What is needed is a MASSIVE WORLDWIDE PROGRAM of 
          EDUCATION to teach ALL present and potential perpetrators, in 
          a convincing manner (with sufficient supporting evidence), 
          that what they do to others WILL BE DONE TO THEM, in this 
          life or the next. 
          
               Anyone who doubts the FACT of REINCARNATION, and the 
          related "LAW of Retribution", should read books such as "HERE 
          AND HEREAFTER", by Ruth Montgomery, which describes several 
          kinds of evidence supporting REincarnation, including 
          HYPNOTIC REGRESSION to past lives [about 50% accurate; the 
          subconscious mind can sometimes make things up, especially 
          with a bad hypnotist], SPONTANEOUS RECALL (especially by 
          young children, some of whom can identify their most recent 
          previous relatives, homes, possessions, etc.), DREAM RECALL 
          of past life experiences, DEJA VU (familiarity with a far off 
          land while traveling there for the first time on vacation), 
          the psychic readings of the late EDGAR CAYCE, and EVEN 
          SUPPORTING STATEMENTS FROM THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE including 
          Matthew 17:11-13 (John the Baptist was the REINCARNATION of 
          Elias.) and John 9:1-2 (How can a person POSSIBLY sin before 
          he is born, unless he LIVED BEFORE?!). 
          
          another person being met for the first time in their PRESENT 
          life, because of a bad encounter with him during a PREVIOUS 

               People would behave much better toward each other if 
          they knew that their actions in the present will SURELY be 
          reaped by them in the future, or in a FUTURE INCARNATION! 

          please consult my CITED SOURCES (books like "HERE AND 
          HEREAFTER", by Ruth Montgomery). 

[reply to tgk@cs.toronto.edu (Todd Kelley)]
 
Agreed.
 
It is hard for me to understand, but quite a few professional scientists
and philosophers are theists.
 
But also intolerance and superstition.  I'm not sure that in the balance
it is not detrimental.
 
Sure would!

You mena in the same way french intelliegence agents steal
documents from US corporate executives?

Well, I dived in feet first and reverse engineered the .PRJ file as much
as I needed to - extracted the mapping icon information - which is
when it dawned on me that 3D Studio is useless for my needs. I need
a mapping icon per applied texture.  I want to use a special purpose
graphics computer for rendering the 3DS models and it requires a texture
rule/plane to be specified in 3Space, i.e. position/orientation of the
mapping rule.  Since only one mapping icon is used in 3DS to apply
textures to ALL objects/faces, it renders (no pun intended) 3DS totally
unsuitable for my needs.

Anyone got a contact for Alias Upfront or any other good modeller for a
PC?  I must be able to specify texture rules (one per texture) and this
must be saved in a file which I can read.  I haven't found any info on Alias
in the copy of the faq that I have.

(rest deleted)
 
That's a fallacy, and it is not the first time it is pointed out.
For one, you have never given a set of morals people agree upon. Unlike
a football. Further, you conveniently ignore here that there are
many who would not agree on tghe morality of something. The analogy
does not hold.
 
One can expect sufficiently many people to agree on its being a football,
while YOU have to give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees
with a set of morals YOU have to give.
 
Further, the above is evidence, not proof. Proof would evolve out of testing
your theory of absolute morals against competing theories.
 
Cute characterization Bill; however, there is no inconsistency between 
the two statements.  Even if one believes that religion is "primitive, 
simple-minded and unscientific, anti-intellectual and childish", one
can still hold the view that religion also adds an unnecessary level of
complexity to the explanation.  The ideas themselves don't have to be
complex before being excised by Occam's Razor, they only have to add 
unnecessarily to the overall complexity of the description.

I think the non-essential part of an explanatory system is one that
adds no predictive capability to the system.

Huh?

 ^^^^^
Watch it, your Freudian Slip is showing

You may want to put Hubble back in the payload bay for a reboost,
and you don't want to clip off the panels each time.

For the Gamma-Ray Observatory, one of the design requirements was that
there be no stored-energy mecahnisms (springs, explosive squibs, gas shocks,
etc.) used for deployment.  This was partially so that everything could
be reeled back in to put it back in the payload bay, and partially for
safety considerations.  (I've heard that the wings on a cruise missile
would cut you in half if you were standing in their swath when they opened.)

Back when the shuttle would be going up every other day with a cost to
orbit of $3.95 per pound :-), everybody designed things for easy servicing.

The following is what they feed to us..... most has been posted already,
but there are a number of items not seen here yet.....

Redesign Activities Update -- Following is the weekly status on redesign,
based on information provided by NASA headquarters.

The station Redesign Team (SRT) provided a detailed status report to the
Advisory Committee on the Redesign of the Space Station on April 22.  The
day-long meeting was held in ANSER facilities in Crystal City, VA; topics
covered by the SRT included a preliminary mission and goals statement for
the space station; science, technology and engineering research; the
assessment process; and the design approach. Discussions on management
options and operations concepts also were held.

The Design Teams then presented the three options under study:

¥ Option A - Modular Buildup -- Pete Priest presented the A option. Priest
said the team is working to define a station that meets cost goals and has
identified three distinct phases of evolution - power station, human tended
and permanent presence. The team will define the minimum capability needed
to achieve each phase, the total cost of each phase and the achievable
capability for budget levels. The A option uses current or simplified
Freedom hardware where cost effective and is considering other existing
systems such as the so-called "Bus-1 spacecraft," the orbiter and Spacelab.

The Power Station Capability could be achieved in 3 flights with Freedom
photo voltaic modules providing 20 kW of power. 30-day Shuttle/Spacelab
missions docked to the power station are assumed for this phase.

Human Tended Capability would be provided by the addition of the U.S.
Common Module Module which adds subsystems and 9 payload racks and docking
ports for ESA and Japanese laboratories. 60-day missions with the orbiter
docked to the station are assumed for this phase. Different
operation/utilization modes are being studied for this phase.

¥ Option B - Freedom Derived -- Mike Griffin presented the status of Option
B activities. Griffin detailed the evolution of the Freedom-derived option,
from initial Research Capability, to Human-Tended Capability, to Permanent
Human Presence Capability, to Two Fault Tolerance, and finally Permanent
Human Capability. Griffin also outlined proposed systems changes to the
baseline program, with minor changes to the Communications and Tracking
system, Crew Health Care System and ECLSS, and a major change to the Data
Management System.

Initial Research Capability would be achieved with 2 flights to 28.5 degree
inclination (3 flights to 51.6 degrees) and consist of an extended duration
orbiter-Spacelab combination docked to a truss segment with 2 photo voltaic
arrays providing 18.75 kW of power.

Human-Tended Capability would be achieved in 6 flights and add truss
segments and the U.S. lab.

Permanent Human Presence Capability would be achieved in 8 flights with two
orbiters providing habitation and assured crew return.

Two Fault Tolerance, achieved in 11 flights, would build out the other
section of truss with another set of PV modules, thermal control and
propulsion systems.

The freedom derived configuration could achieve an International Complete
state with 16 flights.  Three more flights, to bring up the habitat module,
a third PV array and two Assured Crew Return Vehicles (ACRV) would complete
the Permanent Human Capability with International stage.

Griffin told the Redesign Advisory Committee that eliminating hardware
would not, by itself, meet budget guidelines for the Freedom derived
option.  Major reductions or deferrals must occur in other areas including
program management, contractor non-hardware, early utilization and
operations costs, he said.

¥ Option C - Singe Launch Core Station -- Chet Vaughn presented Option C,
the Single Launch Core Station concept.  A Shuttle external tank and solid
rocket boosters would be used  to launch the station into orbit.  Shuttle
main engines would be mounted to the tail of the station module for launch
and jettisoned after ET separation.

The module, 23 feet in diameter and 92 feet long, would provide 26,000
cubic feet of pressured volume, separated into 7 "decks" connected by a
centralized passageway.  Seven berthing ports would be located at various
places on the circumference of the module to place the international
modules, and other elements.  This "can" would have two fixed photo voltaic
arrays producing approximately 40 kW of power flying in a solar interial
attitude.

In his closing comments to the Redesign Advisory Committee, Bryan O'Connor
said a design freeze would be established for the 3 options on April 26 so
that detailed costing of the options can begin.  The next meeting with the
Redesign Advisory Committee will be May 3.

Russian Consultants Arrive in U.S. -- A delegation of 16 Russian space
experts arrived in the U.S. on April 21 and briefings to the SRT by members
of the Russian team began on the 22nd.  The group includes Russian Space
Agency General Director Y. M. Koptev, and V. A. Yatsenko, also of the RSA. 
Others on the team include representatives from the Ministry of Defense,
the Design Bureau SALYUT, the Institute of Biomedical Problems, the
Ministry of Foreign Affairs, NPO Energia and TsNIJMASH.  The Russian team
briefed the SRT on environmental control and life support system, docking
systems, the Proton launch vehicle, Mir operations and utilization, and the
Soyuz TM spacecraft.

The Russian consultants are available to the SRT to assess the capabilities
of the Mir space station, and the possible use of Mir and other Russian
capabilities and systems as part of the space station redesign.  They will
be available to the SRT through May 5.

Management and Operations Review Continues --  Work continued in the SRT
subgroups.  The Management Group under Dr. Walt Brooks is working to
develop a family of options that solve the current problems and build a
foundation for the transition to development and operations.  Various
management options have been developed including:

¥ Lead Center with the Center Director in the programmatic chain of
command.

¥ Host Center with the Program Manager reporting directly to an Associate
Administrator.

¥ Skunk Works/Dedicated Program Office with a small dedicated co-located
hand-picked program office.

¥ Combine Space Station with Shuttle, with the space station becoming an
element of the current program.

¥ Major Tune Up to Current Organization, with current contracts and
geographical distribution maintained but streamlined.

The Operations Group under Dr. John Cox is building on the work of the
Operations Phase Assessment Team lead by Gene Kranz of NASA-JSC, which had
already begun a comprehensive review of operations and had concluded in its
preliminary results that significant cost reductions are possible.

As part of its work,  the Operations Group has identified teams of agency
experts to develop detailed evaluations of each design in the areas of
assembly and operations, utilization, maintenance and logistics and testing
and ground operations.

What's in the Week Ahead? -- The Design Support Teams will provide a
comprehensive status of their option to the Station Redesign Team on Monday
and Tuesday at which point the design will be "frozen" to begin the
detailed cost assessment.   Also this week, the team will begin preparing
for the next round of discussions with the redesign Advisory Committee, to
be held May 3.

Dr. Shea Steps Down --  Dr. Joe Shea stepped down as director of the
Station Redesign Team on April 22 and Bryan O'Connor will take over the
activities of the team.  Dr. Shea submitted his resignation as assistant
deputy administrator for space station analysis, but will continue to serve
as a special advisory to NASA Administrator Goldin and be available to
consult with the SRT. Mr Goldin accepted the resignation so that a request
from Dr. Shea to reduce his workload could be accommodated.

Key Milestones -- The key dates for the SRT as they are currently being
carried on the schedule are:

April 26
Design Freeze on Options for Costing

April 27
Design Support Team Present Selected Options to SRT

May 3
Status report to Redesign Advisory Committee

May 15
Interim report by Redesign Advisory Committee

June 7
Final report to Redesign Advisory Committee

(in answer to Amruth Laxman

Apart from the fact that you get G in the pull-out, not the dive, that
figure is about right for sustained G, no protection.
The duration of G, it's rate of onset, body position and support aids are
all critical parts of the equation. I remember one note about instrumented
gridiron players recording peaks about 200G. Stapp, the aviation doctor,
either by accident or design, took a short-period 80G in a rocket-sled
decelleration, eye-balls-out against a standard (1950's) harness. It had
to be short, calculate the stopping time, even from 500 - 600mph at that
G. A bang-seat can get up to about 60 G, and you'd better be sitting
straight. Find the book by Martin-Bakers human guinea pig to hear how bad
it can get if the rate of onset is too high. A reclining position and a
good G-suit can keep a pilot functioning at around 12G.

A flotation tank should be a good bet, since you can treat the body as a
fluid, and high-pressure situations are not new. Anyone have any figures?

Yup, I think you're right.  My mistake.  Now, how do I make
an "R" backwards using a computer keyboard?

I'll bet the gods know how (this is alt.atheism, after
all).  Tell you what, if all my "R"s start coming out
backwards when I type from now on, I'll become a believer.

(And that's not asking for miracles.  If I asked for a miracle,
I'd ask for a real miracle, like for Pat Buchanan to become
an out-of-the-closet drag queen - well...maybe that wouldn't be
so miraculous, but I think he'd look fabulous in a feather
boa and a sequined hat like Mia Farrow wore in Gatsby.)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Editorial Contact:
Single Source Marketing:  Myra Manahan    (714) 545-1338
Genoa Systems:            Joseph Brunoli  (408) 432-9090
                          Neil Roehm      (408) 432-9090/Technical

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I use it to refer to those Christians who take a more
conservative-literalist approach to the Bible, as distinct from
"liberals".

I would use the word "Christian" (unqualified) to describe someone to
whom the above definition applied.  BTW, it applies to me.

[deletia: Joe Gaut indicates his interest in the BD disaster is from a
civil liberties issue, not an attempt to justify Koresh's beliefs
and/or practices.]

I agree with Joe about this: if some group wants to believe in
whatever god or Invisible Pink Unicorns and go off and live together
and have group sex, or no sex, or sex only for the leaders (but NOT
with children), then, as much as I might believe them to be misguided,
I think they should have the legal right.  And I hope the
investigation will start by determining whether the feds had any
*legitimate* reason for going after Koresh in the first place (before
moving on to consider the wisdom of various tactics used).

[Joe goes on to dispute the child-abuse allegations.  I'll
(provisionally) accept this, unless someone has evidence to support
the allegations?]

Actually I wasn't thinking about the (alleged) child abuse, but about
the reports that he had sex with, and fathered children by, several
women in the cult.  I agree this is not a legal matter - consenting
adults and all that - but Stephen Tice seems to be defending Koresh's
beliefs and practices from specifically *Christian* perspective, not a
civil liberties perspective.  

I think my question is not really aimed at Joe (and possibly not at
Ray Cote either, who seems to also be taking the political angle), but
at Stephen Tice.

This is a whole different situation.  If aliens were able to get here prior
to us being able to get there, one might conclude that they would be more advanced
and therefore "more intelegent" that we are.  However if we get somewhere where there
is life, chances are we wont be able to communicate with them.  So we will have
no clue as to weather they are "intelegent" or not.

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of it that way.  My question however was
more along the lines of... Every year the US spends millions of tax dollars
and giving tax breaks to individuals and companies who feed the poor of foreign
countries while thousands of our own people sleep on the streets at night.
Would we give to the economicly dissadvantaged on another planet if we hadn't resolved
these issues on our own?

But... Your comment brings up another good question.  Over the years we have decided
that certain cultures need improvements.  The native americans is a good example.  Prior
to our attempt to civilize them, the native american culture had very little crime, no
homelessnes, no poverty.  Then the europeans came along and now they have those and
more.  If we encounter life elsewhere, do we tell them they have to live in houses, farm
the land and go to church on sunday?
-- 
Have a day,

a yes,  but the improvement in  boost orbit to the HST is Significant,
and  that means you can then carry EDO packs  and enough consumables
so the SHuttle mission can go on long enough to also fix the
array tilt motors,  and god knows what else  is going to wear out
on the HST in the next 9 months.

Think for a moment about the technology required to do that.  By 
the time they could make the Earth's sky look like Las Vegas, 
the people could afford to go backpacking on the Moon. Round
trip costs for 500 kg to the Moon would be about the same as
5000 kg in a Low Earth "advertising" orbit: Very roughly the
same cost as a smallish billboard, therefore. If such ads were
to become common place, that would have to be a very low price...

The night sky on a Lunar backpacking trip would still be very 
pristine... 

There's always been a problem of having to get 
away from civilization before you can really find "natural"
scenery. 100 years ago, this usually didn't take a trip
of over 5 miles. Today, most people would have to go 100 miles
or more. If we ever get to the point where we have billboards
on orbit, that essentially means that no place on Earth is still
"wild." While that may or may not be a good thing, the orbital
billboards aren't the problem: They are just a symptom of 
growing, densely-populated civilization. Banning such ads will
not save your view of the night sky, because by the time 
such ads could become widespread you will probably have trouble
finding a place without street lights, where you can _see_
the stars...

An ad on a moon of Jupiter would be rather pointless, since you need
a telescope to see them. However, I'd love to see them get all
the publicity they could from underwritting the "Coca Cola Io
Orbital Mapping Probe."  

They already can, to some extent: The IAU allows names derived from
sponsors or patrons of scientific research. If Microscum donates
money to a university astronomy program, one of the galactic 
astronomers could easily get a newly discovered galaxy named after
them.

Welcome to the Peace Run

                     You're invited to join in
                     a Global Relay Run... and
                     help light the Way.

                     ----  Why the Peace Run  ----

There's a new spirit in the Nineties: a spirit of oneness, a growing
belief in the possibility of true global peace.

The goal of the Sri Chinmoy Oneness-Home Peace Run is simple: to
bring this spirit forward in a concrete way, to transform it into
a reality in their own lives.

Every other year, thousands of men, women and children from more
than 70 nations - passing a flaming Peace Torch from hand to hand -
join together in a relay run that virtually circles the globe.
Transcending political and cultural boundaries, they go from
nation to nation - across mountains, jungles and deserts - carrying
the message of brotherhood to all humankind.

Each person who holds or runs with the Peace Torch lights a path
for those who follow. Each time the Peace Torch changes hands, the
flame of oneness burns a little brighter - until one day it will
shine in the hearts and minds of every individual on earth.

		    ----  Making History  ----

The three Peace Runs since 1987 have achieved some historic break-
throughs: in the Middle East, a landmark run crossed the Egyptian-
Israeli border; in Europe, a precedent-setting run linked Eastern
and Western Europe with Russia; in the United States, Mexico and
Canada, entire cities were dedicated to the cause of world peace;
and in Poland, the Peace Torch was blessed by Pope John Paul II.

		 ----  Speaking as One: World  ----
             ----  Leaders, Celebrities - and You  ----

The Peace Run has won the support of leaders the world over -
Presidents, Prime Ministers, religious leaders, sports figures and
entertainment personalities.

Its message has spread to a half billion people though newspaper
reports, magazine articles and radio and TV broadcasts, including
specials on PBS, MTV and NBC's Today Show.

reconciliation. The world must know that God wants us to live
amicably as brothers and sisters, members of one family, the human
family, God's family."  - Archbishop Desmond Tutu,
			  Nobel Peace Prize Winner

		   ----  How It All Works  ----

Peace Run 1993 started with a five-borrough relay in New York
City on Saturday April 17, converging at various points to lead
up to the opening ceremony outside the United Nations Dag
Hammarskjold Building. There, runners from around the world
were gathered for the fourth lighting of the Peace Torch.

From there, Peace Torches are now being transported to over
seventy countries for a series of concurrent international or
cross-country relay runs including the United States, Canada,
Japan, Australia, Russia and Eastern and Western Europe. Smaller
runs will take place in the Philippines, Mexico, Israel, South
America, Egypt and elsewhere in Africa. Distance to be covered:
31,000 miles.

the minds of those who support, participate in, witness, or hear
about the event."  - Carl Lewis,
                     Six-Time Olympic Gold Medalist

                  ----  Who's Behind It  ----

The Peace Run is sponsored by the Sri Chinmoy Marathon Team, an
international running organization that believes sports can be a
powerful instrument for promoting world peace. Each year the Team
puts on hundreds of athletic events, including several world-class
ultramarathons, marathons and triathlons, in dozens of countries.

The Peace Run itself is inspired by the global peace ambassador
Sri Chinmoy, who has written and lectured extensively on peace,
offered hundreds of free peace concerts and met with countless
world figures to advance the cause of international harmony.

The Run is managed by Peace Runs International, a non-profit
organization based in the United States.

               ----  Take a Step For Peace  ----

The Peace Runs in 1987, 1989 and 1991 attracted nearly half a
million participants. We're expecting even more people to join
Peace Run '93.

You can also join the Run - carrying the Peace Torch a few steps,
a few blocks or a few miles. Or you can come out and cheer the
runners as they carry the Torch through your community.

You can also join local celebrities and government officials in
one of the thousands of welcoming ceremonies scheduled along the
70-nation route.

Your inner support is important too. If you're a runner, each time
you go out, you can dedicate your run to the cause of world peace.

		 ----  The Next Step is Yours  ----
		 ----  Make It One For Peace  ----

For information contact:
Peace Runs International
161-44 Normal Road
Jamaica, NY 11432 USA
tel. 718/291-6637  Fax: 718/291-6978

Peace Run Canada
2456 Agricola Street
Halifax, Nova Scotia  B3K 4C2
tel. 902/425-1174  Fax: 902/420-0773

So when they took the time to *copy* *the* *text* correctly, that includes
"obvious corruptions?"

So when they took the time to *copy* *the* *text* correctly, that does not
exclude "variant readings from the masoretic text" which are "of little 
theological import"

Hey, you're the expert.

Uh, why do they have to ask a state commision? Unless the state's buying...

Such a process will only increace the overhead to the power company
of selling different types of light, and will decreace the likleihood
that they will do so. And any efficient lights they might have been
planning in the future, go down the drain.....

You could order it special. If enough people did so, it would be 
low cost. Last I checked, you could use UPS to buy stuff in Arizona
before going there.

Finally, I'm sure your state has things like small factories and
machine shops. You could go into business making lights that are
cheaper to use (thanks to their higher efficiency and the
fact that they aren't wasting energy on broadcasting to space)
and therefore _better_ than the old style...

Five year plans have to be enacted or the planning for the economy
will fall apart.
  
As if the clean air act really cleaned up the air...

_MY_ *experience* seems to suggest that you're trying too hard
to *educate* them (with the same methods used in American schools
to make any subject whatsoever as relevant and boring as Proto-Ugric)
instead of *selling* them on the idea.

...

Well, wake up. Space is becoming a field of human endeavor
instead of just something we can look at from a long long
way away. There are practical space projects that could conceivably
(although probably not) cause lots of light pollution, and 
have been argued against on those grounds, even though they
might open up such possibilities, that people could vacation on
Mars if they wanted really dark skies...

I would appreciate any thoughts on what makes a planet habitable for Humans.
I am making asumptions that life and a similar atmosphere evolve given a range
of physical aspects of the planet.  The question is what physical aspects
simply disallow earth like conditions.

eg Temperature range of 280K to 315K (where temp is purely dependant on dist
     from the sun and the suns temperature..)
   Atmospheric presure ? - I know nothing of human tolerance
   Planetary Mass ? - again gravity at surface is important, how much
     can human bodies take day after day.  Also how does the mass effect
     atmosphere.  I thinking of planets between .3 and 3 times mass of the
     earth.  I suppose density should be important as well.

Climate etc does not concern me, nor does axial tilt etc etc.  Just the above
three factors and how they relate to one another.

Jonathan
--

I know this is kinda off the subject of sci.space, but not really, I want to
answer this for their, as well as everyone else's information.  What these
people are proposing, by and large already exists and can be purchased today.

It is called labview by National Instruments.  IT is a wonderful object
oriented graphical programming language.  IT has been implemented on
both Mac's PC's and VME unix boxes.  IT is fare superior to any programming
approach that I have ever seen and allowed us to decrease the software
development time for our shuttle payloads by 90 percent.  This program is
not dependendant on specific hardware and already has exensive analysis 
capability.

Why re-invent the wheel on a platform that may not exist? It is a great
idea but look out there at what is available today.  The Hydrogen leak on
the Shuttle was found using this software. All SSME control and simulation
studies, along with the real testing at MSFC is handled with LabVIEW.  There
are tons of applications, with the ability to create "virtual" instruments
that can accomplish any specific custom task the maker desires.  With the
addition of IEEE-488 support, the computer becomes a virtual control station,
allowing the graphic representation of remote instrumentation. With serial
I/O support that instrument can be anywhere.  The ground control software
for the main control of SEDSAT 1 will utilize this approach.

"This is your god" (from John Carpenter's "They Live," natch)

I recently got a document describing the JPEG FIF (JFIF) file
format. I was looking thru it, but I didn't get the idea how
to determine the size of a pic in pixel without decoding the
whole image.

How do you get the height and width of a JPEG in a JFIF?

How do you determine wether it is a color or a greyscale
picture?

I wrote a small tool (lsgif) for GIF that returns the
filesize, picture size and color resolution by analizing
the header chunks. The output looks like this:

  157605  bla.gif                                  640x 480  248C24

I use this lsgif to create index files of my archive and since
JPEG are getting more and more popular I would like to have a
similar tool for JFIF, with an output like this:

   57605  bla.jpg                                  640x 480     C24

Please respond by email, because I don't read this news
group very often. I'll post a summary if it is useful.

Thanx in advance,
								Larry

I am looking for an available program that would convert gif
files to other formats usable on DOS-based software such
as WordPerfect Presentations (which will handle .wpg and .tiff,
among others).  

Any suggestions would be appreciated.  Thank you very much for
your time and help.

Steve
alford@novavax.nova.edu
  
I don't think this will work.  Still the same in space
integration problems,  small modules, especially the Bus-1 modules.
the MOL would be bigger.   

Also,  budget problems  may end up stalling developemnt.  
A small undersized station wont have the science community support.

Program effeciencies may cut costs,  but the basic problems
with freedom remain.  in space integration,  too many flights
too build.  not enough science retrurn.  

Essentialy  $5 billion to build MIR.

I think had NASA  locked onto this design, back in 1984,  with
scarring to support a TRUSS for real expandability,  we'd be looking
at a flying space station.

This looks the most realistic, to me,  IMHO,  but,  i dont know if
there is enough will power  to toss the CDR'd  existing hardware
and then  take a 1/3rd  power cut  and do it this way.

the core  launch station has a lot of positive ideas.  You could stick
in more hatches for  experimental  concept modules.  Like the ET
derived workshops.  Or inflatable modules.

pat

Sad but true.

epitaph.  Killed by mis-management.

#@$#%$!!  I *have* a copy of Allen, and it never occurred to me to look
in there...  I must be getting old...  I'll look it up when I get home.
Thanks.

I'd remembered a rather higher number, but that may have been for the
lunar nearside, where the Earth is a significant heat source.

I don't think I've changed my stance at all.  My original stance was that
a painless execution was not a cruel one.  I didn't say what would be
considered cruel, only that a painless death wasn't.  Now, cruelty must
involve some sort of suffering, I believe.  I don't think someone that gets
shot in the head or electrocuted really suffers very much.  Even a hanging
probably produces one sharp instance of pain, but it's over so quickly...

Pardon?

No.  Well, again I stated that a painless death isn't cruel, but I don't
think I stated that all painful executions *are* cruel.  I think that some
are cruel, depending on the nature and duration of the pain.

Anything more than an instant, I guess.  Any death by suffocation
asphyxiation, or blood loss would be cruel, I think (this includes the
gas chamber, and drawing and quartering).  I'd say that any pain that
lasts, say, over twenty seconds or so would be too long (but this may
be an arbitrary cutoff, I suppose).

And guess who's here in your place.

Please finger xyzzy@gnu.ai.mit.edu for information, or if you are
a mail/news only site, mail xyzzy@gnu.ai.mit.edu with the subject line
"SEND FINGER".

They can be detached in an emergency.  But expensive hardware is not thrown
away casually (bearing in mind that nobody knew the design was defective).
If the deployment crew had found some nasty flaw -- the lid failing to open,
for example -- it would have been a bit embarrassing to have to throw the
solar arrays away to get the thing back in the payload bay.

The tongue that brings healing is a
	tree of life,
	but a deceitful tongue crushes the
	spirit.

Adobe Streamline has been out four a couple of years. It does a much better
job than the autotracing functions which are built into illustration
programs. Of course, a higher resolution bitmap will produce a more
accurate trace. The problem that I've run into though, is that when it
creates a detailed trace, it produces WAY more points than are necessary.
If I trace something manually, I use many less es points. The problem
with this is it produces BIG files which slow everything down, especially
printing.

Chuck

but theology is full of reason even if it is, as we believe, based on false
premises etc etc.

hold on there: no meaning to "consciousness" or "mind" or "self"?!

what illogicality?

since when is, for instance, (non-behaviourist) psychology a pipe dream? 
Surely the major purpose of the science of psychology is to understand the
workings of the mind.

"manifestations of the mundane" sounds rather transcendental to me. In fact
"matter", "energy", "space" and "time" are well measured but mysterious
concepts. 

Does an atheist really have to believe in your reductionism or be cast out as
not following the true faith?!

I'm also interested in info both public domain and commercial graphics library 
package to do PC VGA graphics.  

I'm currently working on a realtime application running on a PCC with a 
non-DOS kernel that needs to do some simple graphics.  I'm not sure if 
reentrancy of the graphics library is going to be an issue or not.  
I suspect I'll implement the display controller as a server process that 
handles graphics requests, queued on a mailbox, one at a time.  If this 
provides sufficiently frequent display updates then I believe that I can 
restrict all graphics operations to be performed by the server and thus 
constrain access to the library to a this single process and avoid the need
for a reentrant graphics library.  

Being fairly new to the realtime systems world I may be overlooking something,
what do you think?

Sounds as though you are confused between "what I want" and "what
I think is morally right".

I understand the when one is in orbit, the inward force of gravity at
one's center of mass is exactly balanced by the outward centrifugal
force from the orbiting motion, resulting in weightlessness.

 I want to know what weightlessness actually FEELS like. For example, is
there a constant sensation of falling? And what is the motion sickness
that some astronauts occasionally experience? 

 Please reply only if you are either a former or current astronaut, or 
someone who has had this discussion first-hand with an astronaut. 
Thanks!

I agree with your points, and I'm glad to hear that you subscribe
to the notion of secular humanism, humans helping humans instead
of hoping for a possible deux ex machina solution!

As for faith, you could always use such constructs to dampen
your anger or sorrow.

Cheers,
Kent

Being what?  Oh, _weird_.  OK, I'm warned!

Keep watch for what?

Oh, the several tens (or hundreds) of millions of dollars it would cost
to "record things" there.  And I'd prefer a manned mission, anyway.

We've already got a pretty good platform to "scan" the solar
system, as well as SETI and looking at the galaxy without having
much of the solar system to worry about..
Care to guess where it is?

Shag

-- 

[deleted]

Not to flame (REALLY), but thats an abominable viewpoint (while were
on the subject of abominations).  If we followed the "redistiribution
of wealth" (and by the way, ist that what Clinto and the Democrats are
trying to do...), EVERYONE would starve in short order.  Not only is
it impossoble to organize a fair distribution that depends on every
(wo)man's altruism (can you say black market under communisim
anyone?), but the current methods of resource production are entirely
energy dependant.  There are not enough sources of cheap capital
(aside from human capital) to allow us to stop looking at space a an
excellent source of materials and realestate.  More directly, perhaps
you mioght consider the fact that BILLIONS are spent by TV companies,
and their sponsors, (ABC, NBC, CBS...) on the SUPERBOWL, the OLYMPICS,
and even on monday night baseball games.  Perhaps we should boycott
those games?  If DC-X and company get finished, and there is a market
for it, those "abominable" space will probably be much more cost
effective for the companies, and those starving children.  More people
buy products, the company hires more workers, end result fewer
children die of starvation.

-- 

EUROPEAN COMPUTER RESEARCH CENTRE

Research Positions in 3D Graphics

ECRC is currently expanding its research staff in three-dimensional
graphics. We are looking for highly qualified researchers with a PhD in
computer science and a proven ability to conduct highly innovative
research. Preference will be given to candidates who have strong
experience in developing and implementing algorithms for
three-dimensional graphics, visualization and user interaction. We
presently have positions available for both experienced researchers and
recent graduates.  Candidates with especially strong backgrounds may be
considered for positions as visiting scientists or for Ph.D. student
research positions.

The European Computer-Industry Research Centre is located in Munich,
Germany with English as the working language. The centre is funded by a
consortium of major computer companies, with a mission to pursue
research in fundamental areas of computer science. Active areas of
research include visualization and user interfaces, distributed
computing, parallelism, deductive systems and databases. The center
employs 45 researchers of 21 different nationalities.

The small but rapidly growing graphics group is currently investigating
new methods for three-dimensional human-computer interaction and the
integration of computer vision and computer graphics technology. The
center has extensive computing facilities which includes Sun
workstations, Apple Macintoshes, a well equipped graphics laboratory and
network access to super-computer facilities.

Hi all.  I'm looking for datasets of a human body or head  in any
of the popular formats.  I'm doing a presentation tomorrow which
could be greatly enhanced by bringing in this 'human' factor.  I've
looked around the net with no sucess so far.  Anyone got any ideas?
I'd also appreciate info on the location of datasets for the
USS Enterprise (any model)
Ronan

A religion is a cult which if those in power belong to it.

Actually, they're all bull shit.

Intro to ACCESS.bus (RE: the ACCESS.bus Software Creator's 
	Contest Announcement)

WHAT IS ACCESS.bus?

ACCESS.bus is a new open industry standard for computer 
peripheral connectivity.  ACCESS.bus is a serial protocol that 
uses simple, low-cost I2C technology to link multiple devices to 
a single PC port.  Peripheral devices such as keyboards or 
keypads, locators (Mice, Trackballs, Joysticks), printers, VR 
gloves, digitizers, sensors, actuators or data transmitters and 
others can be easily daisy chained to the host PC.  Applications 
such as CAD/CAM, Data Acquisition, Simulation, Virtual Reality, 
Multiple-Player/Single PC Games, Education and many, many more 
can now take advantage of ACCESS.bus, the technology that puts 
Plug and Play on every PC.

The ACCESS.bus offers advantages to end-users and developers of 
systems and peripherals.  Multiple devices connect to the host 
computer with only one port.  Common communication methods for a 
number of device types lead to simplified hardware and software 
development.  As an open standard, ACCESS.bus enables cross-
platform use of the same device.

ACCESS.bus TECHNOLOGICAL DESCRIPTION:
=====================================

ACCESS.bus technology is an open specification, enabling anyone 
to implement it on host systems or in peripheral devices without 
fee or royalty.
ACCESS.bus has a bus topology architecture.  That is, a single 
host can accommodate up to 125 peripheral devices.  ACCESS.bus 
data rate is 100 Kbits/sec.

ACCESS.bus Physical Layer
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
ACCESS.bus is a serial bus architecture, based on I2C hardware 
protocol, with one data line and one clock line.
Standard low-cost I2C microcontrollers handle bit-level 
handshaking, including automatic arbitration and clock 
synchronization.  

ACCESS.bus Software Protocols
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The ACCESS.bus communication protocol is composed of three 
levels: I2C Protocol, Base Protocol, and Application Protocol.

I2C PROTOCOL: This simple and efficient protocol defines 
arbitration among contending masters without losing data.  I2C 
provides for cooperative synchronization of bus partners with 
different clock rates.  Bus transactions include addressing, 
framing of bits into bytes, and byte acknowledgment by the 
receiver.  

BASE PROTOCOL: Establishes the asymmetrical interconnect between 
a host computer and multiple peripherals.  The host becomes the 
ACCESS.bus manager.  The Base Protocol defines the format of an 
ACCESS.bus message envelope, which is an I2C bus transaction with 
additional semantics, including checksum.
Unique features of the Base Protocol are auto-addressing and hot 
plugging.  Auto-addressing assigns devices with unique bus 
addresses, without the need for setting jumpers or switches.  Hot 
plugging is the ability to attach and detach devices while the 
system is running, without rebooting.

APPLICATION PROTOCOL: This is the highest level of the ACCESS.bus 
protocol which defines message semantics specific to particular 
types of devices.  Each type requires a different Application 
Protocol.  Three broad device types have been identified: 
keyboards, locators, and text devices.

ACCESS.bus support on the PC
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
All three levels of the ACCESS.bus protocol are supported on the 
PC.  An add-on card implements the physical layer and uses the 
base protocol to communicate with physical ACCESS.bus devices.  
An ACCESS.bus Manager - TSR under DOS and a DLL under Windows 3.1 
- controls the operation of the physical layer and interacts with 
the ACCESS.bus device drivers.  Drivers are available for 
multiple ACCESS.bus keyboards, locators and printers for DOS and 
Windows 3.1.  Also available are C language source code examples 
of the interface from applications to the device drivers.

To Contact ABIG (the ACCESS.bus Industry Group):

Does anyone know if any of Currier and Ives etchings have been digitized for 
use in desktop publishing?  I am particularly interested in their riverboat
scenes.  Does anyone know who can get me (for a fee) a good, digitized river-
boat image?

Thank you,

David Dumas
--
dmd2@Isis.MsState.Edu

No, which is why I want an investigation.  
 
Who ever said he was? What is obvious is that he was defending himself, and his
followers, from the government.  Whether you think he was right or wrong in
this is another question.  If he was right, then he had the moral right to kill
those kgBATF agents.
--Ray Cote

Hello, 
 
I am new to this news group, but I need some info.  I am 
currently doing a project for a class on the Internet.  I am
looking for good sources of information on space and astronomy,
more notably, our own solar system.  If anyone knows any good
sites where I can get information about this kinda stuff, please 
e-mail me at STK1663@VAX003.STOCKTON.EDU.  Thanx.
 
                                ----Steve
 
(my newsreader doesn't have a .sig yet, sorry.)

[ ... my stuff deleted ... ]

Bill, you seem to have erroneously assumed that this board has as its
sole purpose the validation of atheism.  It doesn't.  This board is
used to discuss atheism as a philosophy, to share posters' experiences
regarding atheism, to debunk various theisms and theism as a whole, to
share resources relating to atheism, and even to socialize with others
with similar views.  And of course with the number of theists who come
here to preach, it is also used to argue the case for atheism. 

If you want to accuse people of lying, please do so directly.  The
phrase "deliberately mistaken" is rather oxymoronic.

The two forms of theism most often discussed here these days are
Christianity and Islam.  Both of these claim to make their followers
into good people, and claim that much of benefit to humanity has been
accomplished through their faiths.  IMHO they are right.  The American
Friends Service Committee (Quaker), Catholic Relief Services, Bread
For The World, Salvation Army soup kitchens, and Mother Theresa spring
to mind.  (Can someone with more knowledge of Islam supply the names
of some analagous Islamic groups?)  

When Mother Theresa claims that her work is an outgrowth of her
Christianity, I believe her.  Her form of theism ascribes to her deity
such a benevolence toward humanity that it would be wrong not to care
for those in need.  The point is that such a philosophy does have the
power to change the behavior of individuals;  if it is widespread
enough, it can change societies.

The same works for the horrors of history.  To claim that Christianity
had little to do with the Crusades or the Inquisition is to deny the
awesome power that comes from faith in an absolute.  What it seems you
are doing twisting the reasonable statement that religion was never
the solitary cause of any evil into the unreasonable statement that
religion has had no evil impacts on history.  That is absurd.

Why should anyone (check: let's restrict this to Christians, why do *we*)
want to find "commandments" in the books regarded as scripture?  What's
going on? I will pass on psychologizing answers (whether dismissive or more
open) as not the kind of issue to deal with here -- the question is what is
the *theological* point involved?  And it has been quoted "at" me often
enough by those who don't believe I take it seriously, that Jesus (is said
to have) said, "If you love me, you will obey my commands."  [John 14:15]

I am, like any Christian, the slave of Christ, and it is my will that I
should do as He wills me to do.  I am (also, or instead) His younger brother,
but still under His direction, though we both call God "Abba."  Christians,
therefore, will try to find what it is that their Lord commands them, and
discovering it will feel obligated to do it, or to confess their failure.
Readers here may set aside the theologizing jargon (such as "slaves of
Christ") -- the point is that adherents of a religion *will* read the texts
(whether classified as "inspired" or not) that are held up as models, in an
effort to find application to their own situations.  This practice ranges
from "devotional" reading of sermons and the like to the exegesis of canon-
ical scripture as "the Word of God."  And at the highest pitch, this leads
to a question of whether we *can* find in inspired scripture something that
can act as "absolute" guidance for our actions.

The problem is in finding out just *what* it is our Lord commands.  I am
going to set aside for this essay one major direction in which Christians
have looked for these commands, namely Christian tradition.  That is not
because *I* reject tradition, but because my primary audience in this essay
is Protestants, who deny tradition a determinative value, in favor of the
witness of Scripture.  The question I want to deal with is, WHAT commandments
can we find from our Lord in Scripture?  And that turns out to be a hard
question.  [ If any of my Protestant Inquisitors would *like* to turn the
discussion to the authority of tradition, I can accomodate them :-), unlike
*most* Protestants, Episcopalians admit claims from a) Scripture b) Reason
and c) Tradition on roughly equal standing. ]

Earlier in John than my quote above, we read [John 13:34] "I give you a new 
commandment: love one another."  This is the ONLY place in the NT where
Christians are given an explicit commandment, with the context commenting
on its imperative mode pronouncement by Jesus.  At the same meal [so we
*readers* infer, since it is *not* in John, but in the Synoptics] Jesus
says, "Take this [bread]; this is my body."  [Mark 14:22, cf. Matthew 26:26,
Luke 22:19, 1 Corinthians 11:24]  The mode is imperative (Greek _labete_),
and hence this, too, is a "commandment."

In *both* cases we have to *infer* that the command is directed to a wider
circle than the immediate collocation of disciples -- because we judge the
evangelist's point in mentioning it (with the disciples by then mostly or
entirely dead) is that *we* are expected to follow this as a commandment
from our Lord.  In the case of communion, Paul's mention (at least; this
is probably true of the evangelists also) implies an ongoing ritual liturgy
in which these words operate to "bind" Christians to the original command
to his disciples, as a continuing commandment to the Christian community.

I am entirely comfortable with this inference, but I *must* point out that
it is THERE, between us and the occasion on which Jesus spoke the command.
I take it as a clear inference, at the very least the EVANGELIST'S notion,
that *all* Christians are called to love one another, in Jesus' command
directed at the disciples.  But I have to call attention to the inference.
The command CANNOT apply to me without the generalization from the specific
context of its statement to my own context as a "disciple" of Christ.

All reading of scripture has to make such inferences, to get any sense out
of the text whatsoever.  This is a general problem in reading these texts
-- we cannot read them at all without our *own* understanding of our native
languages in which we (normally) read the (translated) texts, and without
*some* appreciation of the original context (and at points, the original
languages, when English misleads us.) I am going to presume, in what follows,
that we have the *general* problem of how to read scripture under control
[ I don't *really* think this is true, but it will suffice for my current
purposes. ]  I will address ONLY the issues that arise when we have already
coped with the understanding of a 2000 year old text from another world
than the one we live in.  Questions at THAT level only introduce MORE reser-
vations about the commandments issue than will be found stipulating that we
can read the texts as the original audience might have done.

Among the reasons we have for seeing John's _agapate allelou_ as a *general*
commandment (not merely an instruction by Jesus to this disciples on that
one occasion), and one linking it to the Synoptic "Great Commandment" is
that we have criticism, from Jesus, about limiting our love to those whom
we congenially associate with.  In Matthew 5:43ff we read, "You have learnt
say to you: love your enemies."  In fact, the Leviticus context quoted
does NOT say 'hate your enemy' -- it is merely the common human presumption.
(And Leviticus is at pains to say that the "love" should extend to strangers
amongst the people of Israel.)  Luke, in expanding on this same Q context,
goes on to have Jesus say. "Even sinners love those who love them." [6:27]
All of this suggests [quite strongly, I'd say :-)] that *limiting* the
scope of the "new commandment" is not quite what Jesus has in mind.  In
short, inference *leads me* to generalizing the actual text to a command
that is "in force" on Christians, and with objects not limited to other

Trickier than the _agapate allelou_ or Institution of communion, there is
the case of the "Great Commission" where (Matthew 10, Mark 6) the Twelve
are sent out to evangelize, "Proclaim that the kingdom of heaven is close
at hand."  The verb is imperative (_ke:russete_), but the context is rather
specific to the Twelve, and there are further specifiers (as in "Do not
turn your steps to pagan territory, and do not enter any Samaritan town"
-- the Lukan parallels are even more specific to Jesus' final journey to
Jerusalem) which make it harder to see this generalizing to all Christians
than the previous examples.  That hasn't prevented Christians from MAKING
such an inference; what I have to call attention to is that such inference
is NOT justified in the text, nor (unlike the first two cases I cite) by
the rhetoric of the evangelist urged on the reader.  Still, Paul seems to
have felt obliged to "proclaim that the kingdom of heaven is close at hand"
even (contrary to Jesus' instructions to the 12 :-)) to the gentiles, to
the ends of the earth.  So, Christians after him have also taken this as
a "commandment" in the sense of John 14:15.  Do I "accept" this?  I don't
know.  It is surely rather speculative.  But you see how the ripples of
inference spread out from the text that is the pretext -- Christians (may)
infer a general commandment, applicable to all, from what is presented in
the gospels as a specific occasion.  I do not (necessarily) object to this
kind of generalization -- but I *insist* that people who make it *must*
have an understanding that they are *reasoning* (at some considerable
length) from what we actually *have* in scripture.  There are *assumptions*
involved in this reasoning, and *these* are *not* themselves scriptural
(though people will do their best to "justify" their assumptions by OTHER
references to scripture -- which simply adds MORE inference into the mix!)

Let's move on to the "Great Commandment" -- that we should love God with
our whole hearts and minds and souls.  This is, perhaps, the Synoptic
"equivalent" of John's _agapate allelou_.  And yet,  it is not PRESENTED
as a commandment, in our texts.  Rather, the context is controversy with
the Pharisees.  To cite Matthew [22:34ff]

	"But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees
	they got together and, to disconcert him, one of them put a question,
	"Master, which is the greatest commandment of the Law?"

It is by no means obvious here (though I accept it as such) that Jesus'
answer is meant to be a commandment *to Christians*.  He is answering a
polemic from his enemies.  [ Mark's account, in  12:28-34 casts the answer
in a far more positive light as (so the "scribe" in this version says)
"far more important than any holocaust (I need to point out that this word
originates in the context of animal sacrifice; forget the Nazis for this)
or sacrifice."  Luke is intermediate -- he has a lawyer posing the question
"to disconcert" Jesus, and gets the Good Samarian parable for his pains
[ Luke 10:25-37 ].  The contexts here are so confusingly various that one
could be forgiven for drawing *no* inferences :-)  In *no* account is this
said as if it were obviously to be taken as a commandment binding on
Christians -- though I think it an entirely reasonable conclusion in each
case that Jesus thinks it to be so.  The point is that our mental gears
HAVE to grind a cycle or so to get to any conclusion from all of this about
what WE are commanded to do, by Jesus.  And all of this is contingent on
our understanding the point of Jesus' use of the Torah in the (all quite
different) gospel accounts, and the application of such a context to *us*.

The different contexts among the Synoptics are curious.  It should be noted
that ONLY in Luke do we get the "fixing" of this command by the parable of
the Good Samaritan.  We may look for an analogous *intent* in Matthew, where
7:12 gives the "Golden Rule" as "the meaning of the Law and the Prophets"
(and where we may also hear an echo of Hillel saying the same, a generation
before Jesus.)  If we make these associations (which I think are entirely
reasonable), we are -- again -- indulging in inference.  The texts do not
*explicitly* support us; rather, we *read* the texts as having this kind of
inter-relationship.  Current literary theory calls this "intertextuality."

My discussion of why the _agapate allelou_ "has" to apply beyond the 
community of the disciples, and beyound the circle of Christian believers,
applies again here, to buttress a conclusion that this *is* (despite the
presentation not saying so explicitly) a "commandment" to Christians.
Few Christians would disagree with my conclusions -- but I *must* point
out that they *are* conclusions, they *depend* on rather elaborate chains
of reasoning that are simply NOT present in the texts, themselves.

The contextual problem keeps coming up, more and more severely as we look at
those sayings of Jesus that are NOT so universally taken by Christians as 
commandments.  And we get some really hard cases.  Take divorce.  Mark is 
pretty clear, "The man who divorces his wife and marries another is guilty
of adultery against her."  [ 10:11, cf. Luke 16:18 ] -- except that Matthew
has an escape clause [ "except in the case of fornication", 5:31 ]. This
seems to be a rather clear "commandment" (whether or not we take Matthew's
reservation); and some Christians, to this day, take it so.  But some don't,
at least in practice.  This is rather peculiar; it is not as if Jesus were
not explicit about this (whereas He says nothing at all about some of the
things people gnash their teeth over.)  How is it possible, if the commands
of Christ are clear, that Matthew can so disagree with the other evangelists
of the synoptic tradition?

I'm going to continue this examination, into ever-murkier waters, but this
is enough to start with.  The theme is: "finding commandments in scripture
is an exercise in inference; our inferences are informed by OUR assumptions,
that is, our own cultural biases."  I have, so far, identified a very few
"commandments" that are generally accepted by all Christians -- and yet in
these, already, some of the difficulties start to surface.  It is these
difficulties I want to discuss in my next essay on this topic.  The divorce
commandment already strikes at some of the difficulties: I see almost no
evidence that the people who are so eager to find commandments to condemn
*me* with, spend any time at all writing nasty screeds to soc.couples or
misc.legal about the horrors or viciousness of divorce, or demanding that
US law refuse to allow it, or refuse "unrepentant divorcees" places in
their churches.  [ That is not to say that divorce *doesn't* enter into 
consideration in general -- it is most definitely a matter of concern, in
even the most "liberal" church circles.  For example, a (wildly) liberal
Episcopalian priest of my aqauintence, in a (wildly) liberal diocese, has
recommended to a couple who approached him to marry them that they have a
"private" secular ceremony before a judge, so that the "public" ceremony
he celebrated need not go through an agonizing "examination" by officials
who would just as soon NOT take on this role of interpreting the commands
we are faced with as Christians.  This, in a church that was effectively
CREATED by a famous divorce! ]

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does this mean they can either do alpha or stenciling, but not both
simultaneously?

                                                                 ^^

Same question again, does this mean they can either do double
buffering or stereo, but not both simultaneously?
-- 

Oh. OK then, sorry for misunderstanding.

Maybee you should persuade your burea that for only $650 they can become much
more competitive, taking input from Autocad, PostScript andGif as well as
SCODL... 

Seriously, this sounds like something the bureau should have. Or find another
bureau. You should not be the one buting this software.

--

Does anyone have any real experience with the Kubota Kenai/Denali
series of graphics workstations?  They pretty much blow the pants
off SGI machines and Sun machines in the same price point, which
is about 50,000 bucks.  Real nice stuff, but I've only seen the
stuff on paper.  I'm wondering, is there anything NOT to like?  The
specs are too massive to get into here, but if a summary is desired
I could be coaxed into uploading the spec sheet.

Hi all,
	I am working on a project in which I need to brake an image
into sub-bands and then work with them.  Since I have never done
anything like this, don't even understand the concept of sub-bands, I
was wondering if there is some software out there that would allow me
to do this.  Any hints?
Thanks,
-- 

: : I have 19 (2 MB worth!) uuencode'd GIF images contain charts outlining
: : one of the many alternative Space Station designs being considered in
: : Crystal City.  [...]

: I just posted the GIF files out for anonymous FTP on server ics.uci.edu.
: You can retrieve them from:
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode01.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode02.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode03.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode04.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode05.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode06.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode07.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode08.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode09.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode10.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode11.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode12.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode13.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode14.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode15.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode16.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode17.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geodeA.gif
:   ics.uci.edu:incoming/geodeB.gif

: The last two are scanned color photos; the others are scanned briefing
: charts.

: These will be deleted by the ics.uci.edu system manager in a few days,
: so now's the time to grab them if you're interested.  Sorry it took
: me so long to get these out, but I was trying for the Ames server,
: but it's out of space.

But now I need to clarify the situation.  The "/incoming" directory on
ics.uci.edu does NOT allow you to do an "ls" command.  The files are
there (I just checked on 04/28/93 at 9:35 CDT), and you can "get" them
(don't forget the "binary" mode!), but you can't "ls" in the
"/incoming" directory.

A further update: Mark's design made the cover of Space News this week
as one of the design alternatives which was rejected.  But he's still
in there plugging.  I wish him luck -- using ET's as the basis of a
Space Station has been a good idea for a long time.

May the best design win.

Am I correct in assuming that the science instruments buffer their acquired
data in onboard RAM, which is then downloaded upon receipt of the MRO command?

Hello,

We are looking for a graphics package (preferably complete
with source code) that will run on our UNIX operating system
(a Sequent running DYNIX 3.2).  This graphics package must 
support a wide variety of character based graphics devices 
(PC's running a terminal emulator, primarily).  
At this point, X11 graphics is not an option.

This graphics program should, if possible, support these
sorts of graphics operations (minimum requirements):

   1) Complicated axes (log, linear, etc.) with fairly
      precise axis labels (multi-line labels, etc.)
      Major and minor tickmarks on axes, etc.	
  
   2) It would be nice if some limited amount of color
      plotting were available, if the output device
      supported it.

We have a copy of gnuplot and are currently using it, but
gnuplot has some limitations.  We are looking for something
more robust than gnuplot.

At this point, I'm looking for information about packages that
might solve our problems.  If you have any information, please
contact me at the above email address.  If the product you know
about is a commercial software package, please send a phone number
or email address so that I can contact them about pricing, etc.

Perhaps you have a different understanding of what "physics" is.  If we
can't measure anything objectively, then the answers we get from physics
aren't objective either.  That's what I mean when I say there's no objective
physics.

Sure, we can all agree that (say) F = GMm/r^2, but that's maths.  It's only
physics when you relate it to the real world, and if we can't do that
objectively, we're stuck.  (Of course, this displays my blatant bias towards
applied science; but even theoretical physics gets applied to models of real
world situations, based on real world observations.)

It's an axiom that it's invariant.  But if the two of us measure it, we'll
get different answers.  Yes, we call that experimental error, but it's not
really "error" in the conventional sense; in fact, if you don't get any,
that's an error :-)

You could argue that the value of c is "objective, to within +/- <some
value>".  But I'd call that a rather odd usage of the word "objective", and
it opens the way for statements like "Murder is objectively wrong for all
people, to within 1% of the total population."

There is an office on the middle left US coast on Middlefield Road in
Menlo Park, CA (415) 329-4390

Would someone be kind enought to document the exact
nature of the evidence against the BD's without reference to
hearsay or newsreports. I would also like to know more about
their past record etc. but again based on solid not media
reports. 

	My reason for asking for such evidence is that last night
on Larry King Live a so-called "cult-expert" was interviewed from
Australia who claimed that it was his evidence which led to the
original raid. This admission, if true, raises the nasty
possibility that the Government acted in good faith, which I
believe they did, on faulty evidence. It also raises the
possibility that other self proclaimed cult experts were advising
them and giving ver poor advice.

It isn't. And I wasn't aware that this O'Hair chick was a reader of
a.a., so that doesn't support your assertion that the argument is
"the whole basis of a great many HERE rejecting...".

   >If this idea goes through, it's the thin end of the wedge.  Soon
   >companies will be doing larger, and more permanant, billboards in the
   >sky.  I wouldn't want a world a few decades from now when the sky
   >looks like Las Vegas.  That would _really_ make me sad.

   Think for a moment about the technology required to do that.  By 
   the time they could make the Earth's sky look like Las Vegas, 
   the people could afford to go backpacking on the Moon. Round
   trip costs for 500 kg to the Moon would be about the same as
   5000 kg in a Low Earth "advertising" orbit: Very roughly the
   same cost as a smallish billboard, therefore. If such ads were
   to become common place, that would have to be a very low price...

This is nonsense.  Its like saying that by the time commercials
on television become commonplace every citizen will have their own
hour long nationally broadcast TV program.

   There's always been a problem of having to get 
   away from civilization before you can really find "natural"
   scenery. 100 years ago, this usually didn't take a trip
   of over 5 miles. Today, most people would have to go 100 miles
   or more. If we ever get to the point where we have billboards
   on orbit, that essentially means that no place on Earth is still
   "wild." While that may or may not be a good thing, the orbital
   billboards aren't the problem: They are just a symptom of 
   growing, densely-populated civilization. Banning such ads will
   not save your view of the night sky, because by the time 
   such ads could become widespread you will probably have trouble
   finding a place without street lights, where you can _see_
   the stars...

The rest of your post is strange mishmash of "its already really bad"
and "it doesn't really matter if it gets worse."  You should try to
figure out what you are really arguing for.  (Kneejerk anti-environ-
mentalism?)

-david

Can a theist be truly objective?  Can he be impartial
     when questioning the truth of his scriptures, or
     will he assume the superstition of his parents
     when questioning? 

I've often found it to be the case that the theist
     will stick to some kind of superstition when
     wondering about God and his scriptures.  I've
     seen it in the Christian, the Jew, the Muslim,
     and the other theists alike.  All assume that
     their mothers and fathers were right in the
     aspect that a god exists, and with that belief
     search for their god.
     
Occasionally, the theist may switch religions or
     aspects of the same religion, but overall the
     majority keep to the belief that some "Creator"
     was behind the universe's existence.  I've
     known Muslims who were once Christians and vice
     versa, I've known Christians who were once
     Jewish and vice versa, and I've even known
     Christians who become Hindu.  Yet, throughout
     their transition from one faith to another,
     they've kept this belief in some form of higher
     "being."  Why?
     
It usually all has to do with how the child is
     brought up.  From the time he is born, the
     theist is brought up with the notion of the
     "truth" of some kind of scripture-- the Bible,
     the Torah, the Qur'an, & etc.  He is told
     of this wondrous God who wrote (or inspired)
     the scripture, of the prophets talked about in
     the scripture, of the miracles performed, & etc.
     He is also told that to question this (as
     children are apt to do) is a sin, a crime
     against God, and to lose belief in the scrip-
     ture's truth is to damn one's soul to Hell.
     Thus, by the time he is able to read the
     scripture for himself, the belief in its "truth"
     is so ingrained in his mind it all seems a
     matter of course.
     
But it doesn't stop there.  Once the child is able
     to read for himself, there is an endeavor to
     inculcate the child the "right" readings of
     scripture, to concentrate more on the pleasant
     readings, to gloss over the worse ones, and to
     explain away the unexplainable with "mystery."
     Circular arguments, "self-evdent" facts and
     "truths," unreasoning belief, and fear of
     hell is the meat of religion the child must eat
     of every day.  To doubt, of course, means wrath
     of some sort, and the child must learn to put
     away his brain when the matter concerns God.
     All of this has some considerable effect on the
     child, so that when he becomes an adult, the 
     superstitions he's been taught are nearly
     impossible to remove.
     
All of this leads me to ask whether the theist can
     truly be objective when questioning God, Hell,
     Heaven, the angels, souls, and all of the rest.
     Can he, for a moment, put aside this notion that
     God *does* exist and look at everything from
     a unbiased point of view?  Obviously, most
     theists can somewhat, especially when presented
     with "mythical gods" (Homeric, Roman, Egyptian,
     & etc.).  But can they put aside the assumption
     of God's existence and question it impartially?
     
Stephen

[By default, followups to 3 newsgroups.]

A short excerpt:

[...]

I would have to say that the "greatest philosopher" title would have to
go to Plato since the whole enterprise of philosophy was essentially
defined by him.  Although he got most of his answers wrong, he did 
definitively identify what the important questions are.  I think it
was Descartes who said that "All philosophy is just a footnote to Plato."

If I were to choose which philosopher made the most important advances
in human knowledge over his lifetime, that's simple...it is Aristotle.
This is so much the case that many simply refer to him as "the philosopher".

Regarding Nietzsche, he's one of the most entertaining, although since his
ideas were so fragmented (and since his life was cut short) it is doubtful
that his influence as a philosopher is likely to be very extensive 500 years
from now.  They'll probably still be reading him in 500 years though.

As for "modern" philosophers, I would have to say that Kant was the most
influential since he had such a strong influence on almost everyone who
came after him (and unfortunately, they maintained his errors and 
amplified them over time).

I would say that the most influential "american" philosopher would have to
be Dewey.

But as to the question of what philosopher will be most highly regarded in
500 years, it may very well be Ayn Rand (who in every important respect
was "American", but was born in Russia).  But I guess that remains to be seen.

This was on "That's Incredible" several years ago.  The volume of liquid
the rat had to breath was considerably smaller than what a human would have
to breath, so maybe it is possible for a rat but not a human.

Does anybody know about a converter from CGM to PCX or anything else more
common.  I've spent some time searching the archives with no luck.
Could you email me your responses.

                 Thx in advance,
                         Mike G.

  Try WinJPEG on oak.oakland.edu:pub/msdos/windows3/winjp210.zip
  It has more TIFF support than graphics workshop.  It also converts to
  all the above formats...

It seems you lived a fairly 'wild life'-- my background is far more
traditional, mostly working, working, working. Maybe there's a clear
indication that the way you lived your life produced a certain 
amount of anxiety that needed to be released. Religion was one
possible medicine. While my more stable environment didn't and 
still does not produce the situation where I feel such guilt.

This is just one possible explanation why you feel this burden,
while I haven't felt it so far.

Regards,
Kent

Hi

I am looking for an algorithm or pointers to any papers on how to convert
Quadratic Splines to Cubic Splines or Beizeirs. If source is available
in the public domain, please let me know.

Thanks very much

-ks

=>I don't necessarily agree with Pat Robertson.  Every one will be placed before
=>the judgement seat eventually and judged on what we have done or failed to do
=>on this earth.  God allows people to choose who and what they want to worship.
=
=I'm sorry, but He does not!  Ever read the FIRST commandment?

I have.  Apparently you haven't.  The first commandment doesn't appear to
forbid worshipping other gods.  Yahweh's got to be at the top of the totem
pole, though.

See, I told you there was an atheist mythology, thanks for proving my
point.

If anyone has a list of companies doing data visualization (software
or hardware) I would like to hear from them.  Thanks.

	-- krs
-- 

No.

No. The library at Alexandria was perhaps the greatest library ever
built in the world. The Greeks had a love of wisdom, philo sophos, and
this great love was reflected in the Alexandrian library. The Christians 
got a hold of it and began modifying and purging texts and then the Moslems 
invaded and either the Christians burned the library to keep it from falling 
into Moslems hands (far more likely since they were the book burners, not the 
Moslems), or it burned in the sack of the city or the Moslems burned it. 
Either way, a tremendous amount of information was lost. The destruction of the
library of Alexandria was probably one of the greatest crimes of man
against man.

Actually, the Hebrew almah, (young woman), was translated as the Hellenistic 
Greek parthenos which may or may not be correctly translated into the
modern and technical English term virgin. The Jews did not have the type
of virginity cult that the Greco-Romans had in Artemis and Diana.

The standard text used by Christians and Jews is the Masoretic Text.
Jews of course use the text in its original Hebrew, without translation.

Propaganda.

   [re: voyages of discovery...]
   Could you give examples of privately funded ones?

If you believe 1492 (the film), Columbus had substantial private
funds.  When Columbus asked the merchant why he put the money in, the
guy said (slightly paraphrased) , "There is Faith, Hope and Charity.
But greater than these is Banking."

It isn't.   It's usually treated as being about as reliable as
any other single, uncorroborated source of information about
a person for whom there is no other evidence.

What do you mean when you say it contains mirables.    I just
opened mine and not a damned thing happened.   Is there some
special way to do this?

: Are you saying that their was a physical Adam and Eve, and that all humans are direct decendents of only these two human beings.?  Then who were Cain and Able's wives?  Couldn't be their sisters, because A&E didn't have daughters.  Were they non-humans?

Okay all humans are direct descendents of of a bunch of hopeful
monsters. The human race didn't evolve from one set parents, but from
thousands. Do you really base your atheist on -this-?

: Considering that something like 4 out of 5 humans on this planet don't know instinctively that the Christian god exist, the claim of instinctive knowledge doesn't look like it hold much water.  Or are you saying that the 4 billion non-Christians in the world must fight this instinctive urge to acknowledge God and JC.

Did I say that people were Christians by nature or did I say that
Christians hold that everyone knows of the God the Christians worship.
I would have thought the distinction obvious, sorry. Read my post
again and see what I -really- said; from what you've written, I think
you are just being agumentative. Also your word-wrap is screwed up or
you need to shift to 80 columns text ...

As requested, here are some addresses of sources of bizarre religious satire
and commentary...  Plus some bijou book reviewettes.

---

Loompanics Unlimited
PO Box 1197
Port Townsend, WA 98368. USA.

Publishers of one of the most infamous mail-order book catalogue in the 
world.  Anarchism, Discordianism, Libertarianism, cryogenics, money-making
(legal and illegal), privacy and security, self-defense, and all kinds of
other stuff that keeps Christians awake at nights.

---

The Church of the SubGenius
PO Box 140306
Dallas, TX 75214. USA.

The original end times church for post-human mutants; a high temple for 
scoffers, mockers and blasphemers.  Be one of the few to board the X-ist 
saucers in 1998 and escape Space God JHVH-1's stark fist of removal.  J.R.
"Bob" Dobbs, God of Sales, is waiting to take your money and ordain you. 
Magazines, sick audio cassettes, and assorted offensive cynisacreligious 
material.  Periodic lists of addresses of Pink religious cults and contact
points for the world wierdo network.

Expect a slow response to mail.  Only conspiracies are well-organized.  You
will eventually get what you pay for if you give them some slack.

---

Counter Productions
PO Box 556
London SE5 0RL
UK

A UK source of obscure books.  A wide-ranging selection; Surrealism, 
Anarchism, SubGenius, Discordianism, Robert Anton Wilson, Lovecraftian 
horror, Cyberpunk, Forteana, political and social commentary, Wilhelm Reich,
Orgone tech, obscure rock music, SF, and so on.  Send an SAE (and maybe a
bribe, they need your money) and ask for a catalogue.  Tell them mathew sent
you.  I've ordered from these folks three or four times now, and they're
about as fast and efficient as you can expect from this sort of operation.

---

Forbidden Planet
Various sites in the UK; in particular, along London's New Oxford Street, just 
down the road from Tottenham Court Road tube station.

Mass market oddness.  SubGenius, Robert Anton Wilson, Loompanics, and of 
course huge quantities of SF.  Not a terribly good selection, but they're in
the high street.

---

REVIEWETTE: "Loompanics' Greatest Hits"
ISBN 1-55950-031-X (Loompanics)

A selection of articles picked from the books in Loompanics' catalogue.  
Subjects include:

 * Christian Dispensationalism -- how right-wing Christians encouraged 
   the Cold War
 * Satanic Child Abuse myths
 * Religion and censorship
 
Plus lots of anarchist and libertarian stuff, situationism, computers and 
privacy, and so on.  Guaranteed to contain at least one article that'll 
offend you -- like, for example, the interview with Bradley R. Smith, the 
Holocaust Revisionist.  A good sampling of stuff in a coffee table book.  (Of
course, whether you want to leave this sort of stuff lying around on your
coffee table is another matter.)

QUOTE:

"The fundamentalists leap up and down in apoplectic rage and joy.  Their 
worst fantasies are vindicated, and therefore (or so they like to think), 
their entire theology and socio-political agenda is too.  Meanwhile, teen-age
misanthropes and social misfits murder their enemies, classmates, families,
friends, even complete strangers, all because they read one of Anton LaVey's
cooks or listened to one too many AC/DC records.  The born-agains are ready
to burn again, and not just books this time."

---

REVIEWETTE: "The Book of the SubGenius", J.R. Dobbs & the SubGenius Foundation
ISBN 0-671-63810-6 (Simon & Schuster)

Described by 'Rolling Stone' as "A sick masterpiece for those who can still
laugh at the fact that nothing is funny anymore."  The official Bible of the
SubGenius Church, containing the sacred teachings of J.R. "Bob" Dobbs. 
Instant answers to everything; causes catalytic brain cell loss in seconds;
the secret of total slack; how to relax in the safety of your delusions and
pull the wool over your own eyes; nuclear doom and other things to laugh at.

QUOTE:

"He has been known to answer questions concerning universal truths with 
screams.  With suggestive silence.  By peeing down his pants leg.  His most
famous sermon was of cosmic simplicity: "Bob" standing on the stage with his
hands in his pockets, smoking, looking around and saying nothing.  Heated
arguments still rage among the monks, often erupting into fatal duels, as
towhether the Master consulted his wristwatch during this divine period of
Grace."

--

REVIEWETTE: "High Weirdness by Mail", Rev. Ivan Stang
ISBN 0-671-64260-X (Simon & Schuster)

An encyclopedia of wierd organizations you can contact by mail.  Space 
Jesuses, Christian vs Christian, UFO contactees, New Age saps, Creationists,
Flat Earthers, White Supremacist churches, plus (yawn) CSICOP, Sceptical
Enquirer and stuff like that.  Not just a list of addresses, though, as each
kook group is ruthlessly mocked and ridiculed with sarcastic glee.  If you
like alt.atheism's flame wars, this is the book for you.  Made me laugh until
my stomach ached.  Revised edition due some time in the next year or two.

SAMPLE ENTRY:

   Entertaining Demons Unawares
   Southwest Radio Church
   PO Box 1144
   Oklahoma City, OK 73101

   "Your Watchman on the Wall."  Another flagellating, genuflecting 
   fundamentalist outfit.  Their booklet "Entertaining Demons Unawares"
   exposes the Star Wars / E.T. / Dungeons & Dragons / Saturday morning
   cartoon / Satanic connection in horrifying detail.  Left out Smurfs,
   though! I especially liked the bit about Wonder Woman's Antichrist origins.
   Keep in mind that once you send for anything from these people, you'll be
   on their mailing list for life.

---

REVIEWETTE: "The Abolition of Work", Bob Black
ISBN 0-915179-41-5 (Loompanics)

A selection of Bob Black's painfully witty and intelligent anarchist tracts
collected into book form.  If I were this good I'd be insufferable.(*) 
Probably the only thought-provoking political book that's fun to read.

QUOTE:

"Babble about 'The wages of sin' serves to cover up 'the sin of wages'.  We
want rights, not rites -- sex, not sects.  Only Eros and Eris belong in our
pantheon.  Surely the Nazarene necrophile has had his revenge by now. 
Remember, pain is just God's way of hurting you."

---

REVIEWETTE: "Principia Discordia", Malaclypse the Younger
ISBN 1-55950-040-9 (Loompanics)

The infamous Discordian Bible, reprinted in its entirety and then some.  Yes,
you could FTP the online copy, but this one has all the pictures.  Explains
absolutely everything, including the Law of Fives, how to start a Discordian
Cabal, and instructions for preaching Discordianism to Christians. 

QUOTE:

"A Discordian is Required during his early Illumination to Go Off Alone & 
Partake Joyously of a Hot Dog on a Friday; this Devotive Caremony to 
Remonstrate against the popular Paganisms of the Day: of Catholic Christendom
(no meat on Friday), of Judaism (no meat of Pork), of Hindic Peoples (no meat
of Beef), of Buddhists (no meat of animal), and of Discordians (no Hot Dog
Buns)."

---

REVIEWETTE: "Natural Law, or Don't Put a Rubber on Your Willy",
            Robert Anton Wilson
ISBN 0-915179-61-X (Loompanics)

The author of the Illuminatus trilogy rails against natural law, natural 
morality, objective reality, and other pervasive myths.  Witty and 
thought-provoking work from someone who actually seems to know an argument
from a hole in the ground.

QUOTE:

"Since theological propositions are scientifically meaningless, those of us
of pragmatic disposition simply won't buy such dubious merchandise. [...] 
Maybe -- remotely -- there might be something in such promotions, as there
might be something in the talking dogs and the stocks in Arabian tapioca
mines that W.C. Fields once sold in his comedies, but we suspect that we
recognize a con game in operation.  At least, we want to hear the dog talk or
see the tapioca ore before we buy into such deals."

---

All of the books mentioned above should be available from Counter Productions
in the UK, or directly from the SubGenius Foundation or Loompanics Unlimited.

mathew
[ (*) What do you mean I am anyway? ]

Never claimed it is a bug.

I guess I edited my note on this away from the article I posted to
many newsgroups.

I wrote something about making color modifications quickly
with 8bit quantized images and only at the saving the image to file
process we have to make the modifications to the 24bit image.
This makes sense, because the main use of XV is only viewing images.

Doing many changes to image, we should keep all modifications
in a buffer; and then before making the operations to 24bit image,
we should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations.

I tried kept sure I don't claim that JPEG is noting else than
a compression algorithm, because I know what the JPEG is.
(You propably misunderstood what I wrote as you have done in many
places so far.)

You also missed what is (were) wrong with XV. However, I did wrote it.

[....]

Thanks Jon.  I had forgotten about the 1912 and 1927 invasions (if I had
ever learned of them.  I mean I *really* forgot!)  But I read the context
as more recent, such as when the Sandinistas were expecting an "imminent"
invasion from the U.S. which never happened.

I stand corrected.  Thanks.

I remembered this one.  This one and Bush's invasion were the two I
mentioned above.  Good ol' Teddy R.-- he knew how to get things done!

Regards,

Whatever you do, don't FTP to the sites listed in my sig...
 
You won't like what you find...really.  I beg you NOT to GO there!
PLEASE!

...e

More people have been asking for information on the Kubota graphics
workstations, so here is some more info on the Kenai/Denali vs. the
E&S Freedom.

Here is the text of a Denali vs. E&S Freedom done by D.H. Brown Associates.

------

Denali bears a strong resemblance to Evans and Sutherlands Freedom graphics
subsystem in several aspects of its high-level design.  Both products use
a parallel array of 29050 processors for geometric computations.  Both
have a pixel router to connect this front end to a second array of
pixel processors.  As a result, Denali and Freedome overlap significantly
in performance and functionality.  Both design teams also appear to have 
similar philosophies with respect to modularity, scalability, and market
penetration.

There remain, however, several important differences between the KPC and
E&S products.  Evans and Sutherland designed Freedom as a high-end
developer's dream system with plenty of performance potential and
flexibility.  In its favor, Freedom has configurations from two to
sixteen floating point units, a border range that starts and ends at
a higher price and performance levels than Denali.  All Freedom
systems include a large, fixed number of pixel processors that
support a broader variety of color blending functions.  The Freedom
design treats its entire image memory as general-purpose memory, allowing
developers to allocate it on a flexible basis to a number of special-purpose
applications.  Finally, E&S provided Freedom with very flexible otput and
video integration features for multimedia and simulation applications.  Note
that KPC is working an auxiliary board for NTSC and PAL output that will not
require an external video encoder.  E&S programmable output features,
however, will remain much more flexible.

The KPC design team, in contrast, made Denali more of an end-user's system.
Entry version have better performance range and flexibility than low-end
Freedom configurations, and come in at more realistic mainstream price
points.  Denali does not need as many 29050 modules as Freedome because
it uses a deeper scan-conversion pipeline to support each one, resulting
in better cost/performance characteristics.  Although both products provide
strong support for 3D, imaging, and volume rendering, KPC recognized that
not all users will want an even mix of these capabilities.  Denali's
configuration flexibility allows customers in effect to purchase
geometric and pixel processing capabilities separately, and to upgrade
them separately as needed.

Both companies have implemented hardware texture mapping at
workstation price levels as a way to attack SGI's more expensive
VGXT and RealityEngine systems -- the only other products to provide
this capability.  KPC supports point sampling and bilinear interpolation
of textures in hardware, but provides only software support for the higher
qualtiy tri-linear interpolated mipmapping method.  On balance, however, Denali
provideds bettern overall texturing capabilities than E&S for most applications.
Aside from being much more affordable, KPC solutions deliver more parallelism
for texture processing and more off-screen memory for general graphics
data storage.  By implementing texture mapping on its transformation
modules, E&S foces customers to move very quickly to higher price levels
to obtain better texturing performance.  Kubota avoids this problem by linking
texturing to its Frame Buffer Modules, providing a lower-cost, more scalable
solution.

Hope this helps,

Brian

Then delete the "unfortunately".   Now tell me that the two statement
say effectively the same thing.

And to save everyone a couple of trips round this loop, please notice
that we are only obliged to use force to preserve self.   We can choose
*not* to preserve self, which is the point of pacifism.

And in this case they don't prescribe the same things, so.....

If you don't think the use of force is immoral, why minimise its use?

Why is the NT tossed out as info on Jesus.  I realize it is normally tossed
out because it contains miracles, but what are the other reasons?

MAC
--

    First of all (this is NOT a snide response), if you're confused about
this issue, you will stumble over a lot of other things as well.  I suggest
that the weakness is your reference material.  Get "An Introduction to Ray
Tracing" by Andrew Glassner for very good coverage of the raytracing
algorithm.  You could also refer to the 2nd edition of Foley & Van Dam.

    On to the question.  The simple answer is that you just keep adding up
all the contributions and then clamping at the maximum intensity.  For
example, if your intensity values range from 0.0 to 1.0, then keep adding up
and clamp the resultant values to 1.0 (you might have to clamp the lower
bound to 0.0 if you have dark bulbs, but that's another issue =^).  So, you
get some illumination equation like this:

        I = Lambient + Ldiffuse(light[n]) + Lreflected + Ltransparent

    The contribution due to reflection is just summed with the light
intensity, as is the light due to transparency.  Now, a slightly less
hand-waving illumination equation is this:

        I = KaLa + KdLd(light[n]) + KrLr + KtLt

    That is, each component of the illumination equation is governed by the
material constants Ka, Kd, Kr and Kt.  So the maximum you can get from
transparency for a given object, for example, might be [0.4, 0.1, 0.5] for a
purple-colored glass object.

    Hopefully this answers your question.  I'll forward my "illumination
equation sermon" to you also.

Translation of the above paragraph:
"I am uninformed about the evidence for evolution.  Please send me the
talk.origins FAQs on the subject."

I am very interested in hearing from all of you who are using or implementing
3-D interactive applications what types of 3-D widgets you would
like to have in your applications.  

A 3-D widget is usually located in the same scene as other 3-D objects of the 
application.  It may let you

- manipulate application data, the camera,
  3-D objects in the scene and so on, or
- view the status of the application or 3-D objects
  via the widget's shape, color, position, orientation and so on, or
- do whatever I missed but you think is possible.

For example, a manipulative widget can be virtual trackball (shown as a
partially transparent sphere) super-imposed on the object to be rotated.
A feedback widget can be a ruler with ends anchored to 2 objects.  The length
of the ruler changes as the objects move and a numeric value is shown on the
ruler indicating the distance.  A widget can provide both manipulation and
feedback.  For example, the ruler can be used to change the distance between
the objects along its own axis.

Please e-mail me or post your opinions on 3-D interaction.  The information
I gathered will help me design a 3-D UI construction tool.
Your help is very much appreciated.

Archive-name: graphics/faq

This message is automatically posted once a week or so in an effort to
cut down on the repetitive junk in comp.graphics.  It was last changed
on 26Apr93.  If you have answers to other frequently asked questions that
you would like included in this posting, please send me mail.  If you
don't want to see this posting every week, please add the subject line
to your kill file.  Thank you.

If your copy of the FAQ is more than a couple of weeks old, you may want to
seek out the most recent version.  The latest version of this FAQ is always
available on the archive site pit-manager.mit.edu (alias rtfm.mit.edu) as
pub/usenet/news.answers/graphics/faq.

---
_john

	John Grieggs grieggs@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov JohnG@portal.com
---
Last update: 26Apr93

Sorry I haven't posted this for a couple of weeks, but I was called out of
town due to a death in the family.  This is reality, folks.

What's new?

SIGGRAPH Online Bibliography Project (spencer@cgrg.ohio-state.edu).

		grieggs@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov

Contents:

    1) General references for graphics questions.
    2) Drawing three-dimensional objects on a two-dimensional screen.
    3) Quantizing 24 bit images down to 8 bits.
    4) Converting color into grayscale.
    5) Quantizing grayscale to black&white.
    6) Rotating a raster image by an arbitrary angle.
    7) Free image manipulation software.
    8) Format documents for TIFF, IFF, BIFF, NFF, OFF, FITS, etc.
    9) Converting between vector formats.
    10) How to get Pixar films.
    11) How do I draw a circle as a Bezier (or B-spline) curve?
    12) How to order standards documents.
    13) How to FTP by email.
    14) How to tell whether a point is within a planar polygon.
    15) How to tessellate a sphere.
    16) Specific references on ray-tracing and global illumination.
    17) SIGGRAPH information online
    18) SIGGRAPH Panels Proceedings available
    19) Graphics mailing lists
    20) Specific references on file formats
    21) What about GIF?
    22) What is morphing?
    23) How to ray-trace height fields
    24) How to find the area of a 3D polygon
    25) How to join ACM/SIGGRAPH
    26) Where can I find MRI and CT scan volume data?
    27) Specific references on spatial data structures including quadtrees
	and octrees
    28) Where can I get a program to plot XY(Z) data or f(x) data?
    29) Specific references on PEX and PHIGS
    30) SIGGRAPH Online Bibliography Project

1) General references for graphics questions:

    Computer Graphics: Principles and Practice (2nd Ed.), J.D. Foley,
	A. van Dam, S.K. Feiner, J.F. Hughes, Addison-Wesley 1990, ISBN
	0-201-12110-7
    Procedural Elements for Computer Graphics, David F. Rogers, McGraw
	Hill 1985, ISBN 0-07-053534-5
    Mathematical Elements for Computer Graphics 2nd Ed., David F. Rogers
	and J. Alan Adams, McGraw Hill 1990, ISBN 0-07-053530-2
    Three Dimensional Computer Graphics, Alan Watt, Addison-Wesley 1990, ISBN
	0-201-15442-0
    An Introduction to Ray Tracing, Andrew Glassner (ed.), Academic Press
	1989, ISBN 0-12-286160-4
    Graphics Gems, Andrew Glassner (ed.), Academic Press 1990, ISBN
	0-12-286165-5
    Graphics Gems II, James Arvo (ed.), Academic Press 1991, ISBN
	0-12-64480-0
    Graphics Gems III, David Kirk (ed.), Academic Press 1992, ISBN
	0-12-409670-0 (with IBM disk) or 0-12-409671-9 (with Mac disk)
    Digital Image Warping, George Wolberg, IEEE Computer Society Press
	Monograph 1990, ISBN 0-8186-8944-7
    Digital Image Processing (2nd Ed.), Rafael C. Gonzalez, Paul Wintz,
	Addison-Wesley 1987, ISBN 0-201-11026-1
    A Programmer's Geometry, Adrian Bowyer, John Woodwark, Butterworths 1983,
	ISBN 0-408-01242-0 Pbk

An automatic mail handler at Brown University allows users of "Computer
Graphics: Principles and Practice," by Foley, van Dam, Feiner, and
Hughes, to obtain text errata and information on distribution of the
software packages described in the book.  Also, users can send the
authors feedback, to report text errors and software bugs, make
suggestions, and submit exercises.  To receive information describing
how you can use the mail handler, simply mail graphtext@cs.brown.edu
and put the word "Help" in the Subject line.  Use the Subject line
"Software-Distribution" to receive information specifically concerning
the software packages SRGP and SPHIGS.

Errata for "An Introduction to Ray Tracing" is available on
wuarchive.wustl.edu in graphics/graphics/books/IntroToRT.errata.

Errata for "Digital Image Warping" is in the same directory as
"Digital-Image-Warping.errata".

All C code from the "Graphics Gems" series is available via anonymous ftp
from princeton.edu.  Look in the directory pub/Graphics/GraphicsGems for
the various volumes (Gems, GemsII, GemsIII), and get the README file first.

Errata to _Graphics Gems_ and _Graphics Gems II is available on
wuarchive.wustl.edu in graphics/graphics/books.

A list of computer graphics, computational geometry and image processing
journals is available from Juhana Kouhia, jk87377@cs.tut.fi.

2) Drawing three-dimensional objects on a two-dimensional screen.

The simple answer is, you divide by the depth.  For a more verbose
explanation, see any of the above references, starting with:

The Foley & Van Dam & Feiner & Hughes "Computer Graphics" book is certainly
a good start.  Chapter 6 is "Viewing in 3D", then read chapter 15,
"Visible-Surface Determination".  For more information go to chapter 16 for
shading, chapter 19 for clipping, and branch out from there.

3) Quantizing 24 bit images down to 8 bits.

Find a copy of "Color Image Quantization for Frame Buffer Display" by
Paul Heckbert, SIGGRAPH '82 Proceedings, page 297.  There are other
algorithms, but this one works well and is fairly simple.  Implementations
are included in most raster toolkits (see item 7 below).

A variant method is described in "Graphics Gems", p. 287-293.  Note that
the code from the "Graphics Gems" series is all available from an FTP site,
as described above.

Check out John Bradley's "Diversity Algorithm", which is incorporated into
the xv package and described in the back of the manual.

The ImageMagick package (see section 7 for where it is) contains another
quantizing algorithm which is presented as "doing a better job than the
other algorithms, but slower".

There's also an implementation of:

Wan, Wong, and Prusinkiewicz, _An Algorithm for Multidimensional Data
Clustering_, Transactions on Mathematical Software, Vol. 14 #2 (June, 1988),
pp. 153-162.

avialable as princeton.edu:pub/Graphics/colorquant.shar.  This code,
in modified form, appears in the Utah Raster Toolkit as well.

4) Converting color into grayscale.

The NTSC formula is:

    luminosity = .299 red + .587 green + .114 blue

5) Quantizing grayscale to black&white.

The only reference you need for this stuff is:

    Digital Halftoning, Robert Ulichney, MIT Press 1987, ISBN 0-262-21009-6

But before you go off and start coding, check out the image manipulation
software mentioned in item 7 below.  All of the packages mentioned can do
some form of gray to b&w conversion.

6) Rotating a raster image by an arbitrary angle.

The obvious but wrong method is to loop over the pixels in the source
image, transform each coordinate, and copy the pixel to the destination.
This is wrong because it leaves holes in the destination.  Instead,
loop over the pixels in the destination image, apply the *reverse*
transformation to the coordinates, and copy that pixel from the source.
This method is quite general, and can be used for any one-to-one
2-D mapping, not just rotation.  You can add anti-aliasing by doing
sub-pixel sampling.

However, there is a much faster method, with antialising included,
which involves doing three shear operations.  The method was originally
created for the IM Raster Toolkit (see below); an implementation is
also present in PBMPLUS.  Reference: "A Fast Algorithm for Raster
Rotation", by Alan Paeth (awpaeth@watcgl.waterloo.edu) Graphics
Interface '86 (Vancouver).  An article on the IM toolkit appears in
the same journal.  An updated version of the rotation paper appears
in "Graphics Gems" (see section [1]) under the original title.

7) Free image manipulation software.

There are a number of toolkits for converting from one image format to
another, doing simple image manipulations such as size scaling, plus
the above-mentioned 24 -> 8, color -> gray, gray -> b&w conversions.
Here are pointers to some of them:

    xv by John Bradley.  X-based image display, manipulation, and format
    conversion package.  XV displays many image formats and permits editing
    of GIF files, among others. The program was updated 5/92; see the file
    contrib/xv-2.21.tar.Z on export.lcs.mit.edu.

    PBMPLUS, by Jef Poskanzer.  Comprehensive format conversion and image
    manipulation package.  The latest version is always available via
    anonymous FTP as ftp.ee.lbl.gov:pbmplus*.tar.Z,
    wuarchive.wustl.edu:graphics/graphics/packages/pbmplus/pbmplus*.tar.Z,
    and export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib/pbmplus*.tar.Z.

    IM Raster Toolkit, by Alan Paeth (awpaeth@watcgl.uwaterloo.ca).
    Provides a portable and efficient format and related toolkit.  The
    format is versatile in supporting pixels of arbitrary channels,
    components, and bit precisions while allowing compression and machine
    byte-order independence.  The kit contains more than 50 tools with
    extensive support of image manipulation, digital halftoning and format
    conversion.  Previously distributed on tape c/o the University of
    Waterloo, an FTP version will appear someday.

    Utah RLE Toolkit.  Conversion and manipulation package, similar to
    PBMPLUS.  Available via FTP as cs.utah.edu:pub/urt-*,
    princeton.edu:pub/Graphics/urt-*, and freebie.engin.umich.edu:pub/urt-*.

    Fuzzy Pixmap Manipulation, by Michael Mauldin <mlm@nl.cs.cmu.edu>.
    Conversion and manipulation package, similar to PBMPLUS.  Version 1.0
    available via FTP as nl.cs.cmu.edu:/usr/mlm/ftp/fbm.tar.Z,
    ftp.uu.net:pub/fbm.tar.Z, and ucsd.edu:graphics/fbm.tar.Z.

    Img Software Set, by Paul Raveling <raveling@venera.isi.edu>.  Reads and
    writes its own image format, displays on an X11 screen, and does some
    image manipulations.  Version 1.3 is available via FTP as
    export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib/img_1.3.tar.Z, and
    venera.isi.edu:pub/img_1.3.tar.Z along with a large collection of color
    images.

    Xim, X Image Manipulator, by Philip R. Thompson.  It does essential
    interactive image manipulations and uses x11r4 and the OSF/Motif toolkit
    for the interface.  It supports images in 1, 8, 24 and 32 bit formats.
    Reads/writes and converts to/from GIF, xwd, xbm, tiff, rle, xim, and
    other formats.  Writes level 2 postscript.  Other utilities and image
    application library are included.  Not a paint package.  Available via
    ftp from gis.mit.edu.

    xloadimage, by Jim Frost <madd@std.com>.  Reads in images in various
    formats and displays them on an X11 screen.  Available via FTP as
    export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib/xloadimage*, and in your nearest comp.sources.x
    archive.

    xli, by Grame Gill, is an updated xloadimage with numerous improvements
    in both speed and in the number of formats supported.  Available in the
    same places as xloadimage (contrib tape, comp.sources.x archives).

    TIFF Software, by Sam Leffler <sam@okeeffe.berkeley.edu>.  Nice
    portable library for reading and writing TIFF files, plus a few tools
    for manipulating them and reading other formats.  Available via FTP as
    ucbvax.berkeley.edu:pub/tiff/*.tar.Z or ftp.uu.net:graphics/tiff.tar.Z

    xtiff, an X11 tool for viewing a TIFF file.  It was written to handle
    as many different kinds of TIFF files as possible while remaining
    simple, portable and efficient.  xtiff illustrates some common problems
    with building pixmaps and using different visual classes.  It is
    distributed as part of Sam Leffler's libtiff package and it is also
    available on export.lcs.mit.edu, ftp.uu.net and comp.sources.x.
    xtiff 2.0 was announced in 4/91; it includes Xlib and Xt versions.

    ALV, a Sun-specific image toolkit.  Version 2.0.6 posted to
    comp.sources.sun on 11dec89.  Also available via email to
    alv-users-request@cs.bris.ac.uk.

    popi, an image manipulation language.  Version 2.1 posted to
    comp.sources.misc on 12dec89.

    ImageMagick, an X11 package for display and interactive manipulation
    of images.  Includes tools for image conversion, annotation, compositing,
    animation, and creating montages.  ImageMagick can read and write many of
    the more popular image formats.  Available via FTP as
    export.lcs.mit.edu:contrib/ImageMagick.tar.Z.

    Khoros, a huge (~100 meg) graphical development environment based on
    X11R4.  Khoros components include a visual programming language, code
    generators for extending the visual language and adding new application
    packages to the system, an interactive user interface editor, an
    interactive image display package, an extensive library of image and
    signal processing routines, and 2D/3D plotting packages.  Available via
    FTP as pprg.eece.unm.edu:pub/khoros/*.

    LaboImage, a SunView-based image processing and analysis package.  It
    includes more than 200 image manipulation, processing and measurement
    routines, on-line help, plus tools such as an image editor, a color
    table editor and several biomedical utilities.  Available via anonymous
    FTP as ads.com:pub/VISION-LIST-ARCHIVE/SHAREWARE/LaboImage_3.1.tar.Z

    The San Diego Supercomputer Center Image Tools, software tools for
    reading, writing, and manipulating raster images.  Binaries for some
    machines available via anonymous FTP in sdsc.edu:sdscpub.

    The Independent JPEG Group has written a package for reading and
    writing JPEG files.  FTP to ftp.uu.net:graphics/jpeg/jpegsrc.v?.tar.Z

Don't forget to set binary mode when you FTP tar files.  For you MILNET
folks who still don't have name servers, the IP addresses are:

    ads.com			128.229.30.16
    cs.utah.edu			128.110.4.21
    coral.cs.jcu.edu.au		137.219.17.4
    export.lcs.mit.edu		18.24.0.12
    freebie.engin.umich.edu	141.212.103.21
    ftp.ee.lbl.gov		128.3.112.20
    ftp.uu.net			137.39.1.9 or 192.48.96.9
    gis.mit.edu			18.80.1.118
    gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au	128.250.70.62
    karazm.math.uh.edu		129.7.7.6
    marsh.cs.curtin.edu.au	134.7.1.1
    nic.funet.fir		128.214.6.100
    ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu		141.142.20.50
    nl.cs.cmu.edu		128.2.222.56
    pit-manager.mit.edu		18.172.1.27
    pprg.eece.unm.edu		129.24.24.10
    princeton.edu		128.112.128.1
    sdsc.edu			132.249.20.22
    ucbvax.berkeley.edu		128.32.133.1
    venera.isi.edu		128.9.0.32
    weedeater.math.yale.edu	128.36.23.17
    wuarchive.wustl.edu		128.252.135.4
    zamenhof.cs.rice.edu	128.42.1.75

Please do *not* post or mail messages saying "I can't FTP, could someone
mail this to me?"  There are a number of automated mail servers that will
send you things like this in response to a message.  See item 13 below for
details on some.

Also, the newsgroup alt.graphics.pixutils is specifically for discussion
of software like this.  You may find useful information there.

8) Format documents for TIFF, IFF, BIFF, NFF, OFF, FITS, etc.

You almost certainly don't need these.  Read the above item 7 on free
image manipulation software.  Get one or more of these packages and
look through them.  Chances are excellent that the image converter you
were going to write is already there.  But if you still want one of the
format documents, many such files are available by anonymous ftp from
zamenhof.cs.rice.edu in directory pub/graphics.formats.

These files were collected off the net and are believed to be correct.
This archive includes pixel formats, and two- and three-dimensional object
formats.  The future of this archive is uncertain at the moment, as Mark
Hall <foo@cs.rice.edu> will apparently no longer be maintaining it.

A second graphics file format archive is now being actively maintained
by Quincey Koziol (koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu).  The latest version exists at
ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu in /misc/file.formats/graphics.formats.  Apparently,
neither of these is complete, you might want to check both.

FITS stands for Flexible Image Transport System. It's a file format most
often used in astronomy.  Despite the name, it can contain not only images
but other things as well.  There is a regular monthly FITS basics and
information posting on sci.astro.fits - read it if you want to know more.

9) Converting between vector formats.

A lot of people ask about converting from HPGL to PostScript, or MacDraw
to CGM, or whatever.  It is important to understand that this is a very
different problem from the image format conversions in item 7.  Converting
one image format to another is a fairly easy problem, since once you
get past all the file header junk, a pixel is a pixel -- the basic objects
are the same for all image formats.  This is not so for vector formats.
The basic objects -- circles, ellipses, drop-shadowed pattern-filled
round-cornered rectangles, etc. -- vary from one format to another.
Except in extremely restricted cases, it is simply not possible to do
a one-to-one conversion between vector formats.

There is software for converting to and from CGM files on ftp.psc.edu.  The
contributor states that it runs on Unix, MS-Windows, and possibly the Mac.
A better, more specific blurb would be most welcome.

On the other hand, it is quite possible to do a close approximation,
rendering an image from one format using the primitives from another.
As far as I know, no one has put together a general toolkit of such
converters, but two different HPGL to PostScript converters have been
posted to comp.sources.misc.  Check the index on your nearest archive
site.

A related frequent question is how to convert from some vector format
to a bitmapped image - from PostScript to Sun raster format, or HPGL to
X11 bitmap.  For example, some of the commercial PostScript clones for
PC's allow you to render to a disk file as well as a printer.  Also,
the PostScript interpreters in the NeXT box and in Sun's X11/NeWs can
be used to render to a file if you're clever.  But in general, the
answer is no.  However, if someone were to put together a vector to
vector conversion toolkit, adding a vector to raster converter would be
trivial.

GNU ghostscript (from the FSF - current version 2.5.2) includes
drivers for both ppm and gif format files, thus it can be used as
a PostScript to ppm  or a PostScript to GIF filter.  (It implements
essentially all of PostScript level 1 and alot of Display PostScript
and level 2).

10) How to get Pixar films.

The various John Lasseter / Pixar computer animated shorts are available
on video tape.  You can order them from Direct Cinema Limited:

    Film                           Individual Price      Institutional Price
    Luxo, Jr.				$14.95			$50.00
    Red's Dream				$19.95			$75.00
    Tin Toy				$24.95			$75.00
    Knickknack				$24.95			$75.00
    Luxo, Jr./Red's Dream/Tin Toy	$39.95			$100.00

All tapes are on 1/2" VHS NTSC.  Add $10/tape for PAL format.  Also
available:

    Tin Toy T-shirt			$15.00
    Knickknack 3D T-shirt		$15.00 (includes glasses)

For individual orders, add $5 S&H for the first tape or shirt, $2 for
each additional tape or shirt.  For institutional orders, add $5 S&H
for the first tape, $3 for each additional tape.  Foreign shipping, add
$3/tape or shirt.  Call 800-525-0000 (213-396-4774 international,
213-396-3233 FAX) to charge to your credit card.  Call first to verify
prices and availability.  Or, just write to:

    Direct Cinema Limited
    1749 14th Street
    Santa Monica, CA 90404-4342

Allan Braunsdorf has this to say:

At SIGGRAPH they were selling a tape with all four shorts
for $25.  That was a sale price.  You can get it for slightly
more than that normally.  ($35 maybe.)  I believe it's
available from RenderMan Retail (at Pixar's address).

    Pixar
    1001 West Cutting Blvd.
    Richmond, CA. 94804
    (510) 236-4000 
    (510) 236-0388 (FAX)

You can obtain a video directly from Pixar which contains "Luxo, Jr.", "Red's
Dream", "Tin Toy" and "Knicknack" for $25.00, plus $2.50 for shipping. They
will take your order over the phone or via FAX with a major credit card. I 
ordered mine just last week and received it several days later. Don't expect 
to be able to rent a copy from your local video store. According to the license
agreement printed on the back cover of the case, it cannot be rented.

11) How do I draw a circle as a Bezier (or B-spline) curve?

The short answer is, "You can't."  Unless you use a rational spline you
can only approximate a circle.  The approximation may look acceptable,
but it is sensitive to scale.  Magnify the scale and the error of
approximation magnifies.  Deviations from circularity that were not
visible in the small can become glaring in the large.  If you want to
do the job right, consult the article:

  "A Menagerie of Rational B-Spline Circles"
  by Leslie Piegl and Wayne Tiller
  in IEEE Computer Graphics and Applications, volume 9, number 9,
  September, 1989, pages 48-56.

For rough, non-rational approximations, consult the book:

  Computational Geometry for Design and Manufacture
  by I. D. Faux and M. J. Pratt,
  Ellis Horwood Publishers, Halsted Press, John Wiley 1980.

For the best known non-rational approximations, consult the article:

  "Good Approximation of Circles by Curvature-continuous Bezier Curves"
  by Tor Dokken, Morten Daehlen, Tom Lyche, and Knut Morken
  in Computer Aided Geometric Design, volume 7, numbers 1-4 (combined),
  June, 1990, pages 33-41 [Elsevier Science Publishers (North-Holland)]

Kernel System) is ANSI X3.124-1985.  PHIGS (Programmer's Hierarchical
Interactive Graphics System) is ANSI X3.144-1988.  IGES is ASME/ANSI
Y14.26M-1987.  Language bindings are often separate but related numbers;
for example, the GKS FORTRAN binding is X3.124.1-1985.

Standards-in-progress are made available at key milestones to solicit
comments from the graphical public (this includes you!).  ANSI can let
you know where to order them; most are available from Global Engineering
at 1-800-854-7179.

13) How to FTP by email.

In addition, there is at least one FTP-by-mail server.  Send mail to
ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com saying "help" and it will tell you how to use
it.  Note that this service has at times been turned off due to abuse.

14) How to tell whether a point is within a planar polygon.

Consider a ray originating at the point of interest and continuing to
infinity.  If it crosses an odd number of polygon edges along the way,
the point is within the polygon.  If the ray crosses an even number of
edges, the point is either outside the polygon, or within an interior
hole formed from intersecting polygon edges.  This idea is known in
the trade as the Jordan curve theorem; see Eric Haines' article in
Glassner's ray tracing book (above) for more information, including
treatment of special cases.

Another method is to sum the absolute angles from the point to all
the vertices on the polygon.  If the sum is 2 pi, the point is inside,
if the sum is 0 the point is outside.  However, this method is about an
order of magnitude slower than the previous method because evaluating the
trigonometric functions is usually quite costly.

Code for both methods (plus barycentric triangle testing) can be found in
the Ray Tracing News, Vol. 5, No. 3, available from princeton.edu:
pub/Graphics/RTNews/RTNv5n3.Z.

15) How to tessellate a sphere.

One simple way is to do recursive subdivision into triangles.  The
base of the recursion is an octahedron, and then each level divides
each triangle into four smaller ones.  Jon Leech <leech@cs.unc.edu>
has posted a nice routine called sphere.c that generates the coordinates.
It's available for FTP on ftp.ee.lbl.gov and princeton.edu.

16) Specific references on ray-tracing and global illumination.

Rick Speer maintains a cross-indexed ray-tracing bibliography:

Highlights of this edition-

    i) more than 500 citations spanning the period from 1968 through
       November '91;
    ii) papers from all Siggraph, Graphics Interface, Eurographics, CG
        International and Ausgraph proceedings through December, '91;
    iii) all citations keyworded for easy lookup;
    iv) cross-indices by keyword and author;
    v)  glossary of the 119 keywords used.

The bib is in the form of a PostScript file.  The printout is 41 pages long.
Below is a list of ftp sites and the dirs that contain the file. It's named
"speer.raytrace.bib.ps.Z" and is compressed at most sites-

             Site                             Dir
	wuarchive.wustl.edu	graphics/graphics/bib/RT.BIB.Speer/
	karazm.math.uh.edu	pub/Graphics/
	gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au	pub/papers/
	nic.funet.fi		pub/sci/papers/graphics
	coral.cs.jcu.edu.au     graphics/papers/

Eric Haines (erich@eye.com) maintains ray tracing and radiosity/global
illumination bibliographies.  These are in "refer" format, and so can be
searched electronically (a simple awk script to search for keywords is
included with each).  The bibliographies are available at most of the
sites listed above, and the most current versions are maintained at
princeton.edu: pub/Graphics/Papers as "RayBib.*" and "RadBib.*".

Tom Wilson (wilson@cs.ucf.edu) has collected over 300 abstracts from ray
tracing related research papers and books.  The information is essentially
in plaintext, and Latex and troff formatting programs are included.  This
collection is available at most of the sites above as "rtabs.*".

17) SIGGRAPH information online

[from Steve Cunningham and Ralph Orlick]

ACM-SIGGRAPH announces its online information site at  siggraph.org
(128.248.245.250).  This site now provides SIGGRAPH information via both
anonymous ftp and an electronic mail archive server.

The anonymous ftp service is very standard, and the ftp directory includes
both conference and publications subdirectories.

To retrieve information by electronic mail, send mail to
     archive-server@siggraph.org
and in the subject or the body of the message include the message  send
followed by the topic and subtopic you wish.  A good place to start is with
the command
     send index
which will give you an up-to-date list of available information.

18) SIGGRAPH Panels Proceedings available

[from Steve Cunningham and Bob Judd]

ACM SIGGRAPH announces the availability of the SIGGRAPH '91 Panels Proceedings
at the  siggraph.org  site (128.248.245.250).  The proceedings are available
in three formats:
     text   (ASCII)
     rtf    (rich text format, suitable for many word processors)
     word   (MS Word for the Macintosh)
They may be retrieved from siggraph.org in two ways:

(1) by anonymous ftp
    change to one of the directories
       publications/s91/panels_proceedings/[text|rtf|word]
    The text and rtf files may be downloaded in ASCII mode, while the word
    files are stored in MacBinary format and must be downloaded in binary 
    mode.

    Each directory contains a Table of Contents file (TOC) that describes the
    contents of each panel file.

(2) by electronic mail
    send mail to
       archive-server@siggraph.org
    You can retrieve either the  text  or  rtf  files.  We suggest that you
    first retrieve the index files by putting one of the messages
       send panel91-txt index
       send panel91-rtf index
    in the subject or body of the message.  You will get the necessary
    information to retrieve the actual transcript files.

19) Graphics mailing lists

There are a variety of graphics-related mailing list out there, each
covering either a single product or a single topic.  I have been an
active participant in one of these for some time now, and find the
focus and expertise which can be brought to bear on an isolated topic
to be nothing short of amazing.

Please send me the appropriate information if you have any others you
would like to see added.

Name:		Imagine mailing list
Description:	Discussion forum for users of the Imagine 3D Rendering and
		Animation package by Impulse, Inc.
Platforms:	Amiga, IBM
Subscription:	imagine-request@email.sp.paramax.com
Posting:	imagine@email.sp.paramax.com

Name:		DCTV mailing list
Description:	Discussion forum for users of the Digital Creations DCTV
		box, software, and file formats
Platforms:	Amiga
Subscription:	DCTV-request@nova.cc.purdue.edu
Posting:	DCTV@nova.cc.purdue.edu

Name:		Rayshade Users mailing list
Description:	Discussion forum for users of the Rayshade raytracer
Platforms:	Most UNIX boxes, Amiga, Mac, IBM
Subscription:	rayshade-request@cs.princeton.edu
Posting:	rayshade-users@cs.princeton.edu

Name:		Lightwave 3D software for Toaster mailing list
Description:	Discussion forum for users of Lightwave, the Video
		Toaster modelling and rendering package
Subscription:	lightwave-request@bobsbox.rent.com
		with "subscribe lightwave-l" in your message
Posting:	lightwave@bobsbox.rent.com

Name:		POV mailing list
Description:	Discussion forum for DKBTrace and POV renderers
Platforms:	Unix
Subscription:	listserv@trearn.bitnet
Posting:	dkb-l@trearn.bitnet

Name:		Mailing List For Massive Parallel Rendering
Description:	same?
Subscription:	mp-render-request@icase.edu
Posting:	mp-render@icase.edu

20) Specific references on file formats

    Graphics File Formats, David Kay and John Levine, Windcrest/McGraw-Hill
      1992, ISBN 0-8306-3059-7 paper, ISBN 0-8306-3060-0 $36.95 hardcover,
      ISBN 0-8306-3059-7 $24.95 paper.  Comments - 26 formats, no software
      (this is good, IMHO - I prefer books which are non-platform-dependent).
      Questions about this book may be sent to gbook@iecc.cambridge.ma.us.

21) What about GIF?

GIF stands for Graphics Interchange Format.  It is portable and usable upon
a wide variety of platforms.  It is quite limited in some ways (yes, the
keeper of the FAQ has some opinions after all), and in fact, I don't like
it much.  However, it looks to me like the most-Frequently Asked Question
which was not previously covered in this list.  The following is a list
of newsgroups and the like where one could go to find out about GIF.

Subject: alt.binaries.pictures FAQ - General info
Subject: alt.binaries.pictures FAQ - OS specific info
Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures.d,alt.binaries.pictures.misc,
	alt.binaries.pictures.utilities,alt.binaries.pictures.fractals,
	alt.binaries.pictures.fine-art.d,news.answers

Available in the indicated USENET newsgroup(s), or via anonymous ftp from
pit-manager.mit.edu in the files:

/pub/usenet/news.answers/pictures-faq/part1
/pub/usenet/news.answers/pictures-faq/part2

Also available from mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu by sending a mail
message containing any or all of:

send usenet/news.answers/pictures-faq/part1
send usenet/news.answers/pictures-faq/part2

Send a message containing "help" to get general information about the
mail server.

Also, you could check out the resources described in sections 7, 8, and
20 above for more information.

22) What is morphing?

Warping is the deformation of an image by mapping each pixel to a new
location. Morphing is blending from one image or object to another one.
Valerie Hall has written an excellent introduction to warping and
morphing. This is available for anonymous ftp from marsh.cs.curtin.edu.au
in the directory pub/graphics/bibliography/Morph. There are three files:

        morph_intro.ps.Z     (PostScript version, many pictures - 1.5M)
        morph_intro.txt.Z    (text version)
        m_responses.Z        (Responses to morphing questions)

The files are compressed, so you must use binary transfer and
uncompress them afterwards.

23) How to ray-trace height fields

Height fields are a special case in ray-tracing.  They have a number of uses,
such as terrain rendering, and some optimization is possible.  Thus, they
get their own FAQ section.  Note that further references can no doubt be
located via the ray-tracing bibs in section 16 above.

The following paper seems to be the definitive reference:

F. Kenton Musgrave
Grid Tracing: Fast Ray Tracing For Height Fields
July, 1988
<musg88.ps.Z>

This is available as "Research Report YALEU/DCS/RR-639" from Yale University,
it's also in the SIGGRAPH '91 Fractal Modeling in 3D Computer Graphics and
Imaging course notes, and (best of all) it's available on the net:

    nic.funet.fi		pub/sci/papers/musg88.ps.Z
    weedeater.math.yale.edu	pub/Papers/musg88.ms.Z
    princeton.edu		pub/Graphics/Papers/musg88.ms.Z
    coral.cs.jcu.edu.au		graphics/papers/musg88.ps.Z
    gondwana.ecr.mu.OZ.AU	pub/papers/musg88.ms.Z and musg88.ps.Z

An implementation of this paper may be found in Rayshade.

Another paper exists:

%A David W. Paglieroni
%A Sidney M. Petersen
%T Parametric Height Field Ray Tracing
%J Proceedings of Graphics Interface '92
%I Canadian Information Processing Society
%C Toronto, Ontario
%D May 1992
%P 192-200

And still one more:

Musgrave, Kolb, and Mace
"The Synthesis and Rendering of Eroded Fractal Terrains",
Computer Graphics Vol 23, No. 3 (SIGGRAPH '89 procedings) p. 41-50

24) How to find the area of a 3D polygon

	The area of a triangle is given by (in C notation),

     area = 0.5 * ( ( x[0] * y[1] ) + ( x[1] * y[2] ) + ( x[2] * y[0] ) -
	            ( x[1] * y[0] ) - ( x[2] * y[1] ) - ( x[0] * y[2] ) );

and the area of a planar polygon is given by

     area = 0.0;

     for ( i = 0; i < n - 1; i++ )
         area += ( x[i] * y[i + 1] ) - ( x[i + 1] * y[i] );
     area += ( x[n - 1] * y[0] ) - ( x[0] * y[n - 1] );
     area /= 2.0;

If the area is a negative number, the polygon or triangle is
clockwise, if positive, it is counterclockwise.

 of Planar Polygons and Volume of Polyhedra:"

The area of a polygon P0, P1, P2, ... Pn, not in the x-y plane, is
given by

     Area(Polygon) = 1/2 * | N . Sigma { Pk x Pk+1 } |

where N is the unit vector normal to the plane and P is a polygonal
vertex.  The . represents the dot product operator and the x
represents the cross product operator.  Sigma represents the summation
operator.  | | represents the absolute value operator.  Pn+1 is equal
to P0.

25) How to join ACM/SIGGRAPH

Probably the easiest way to join ACM/SIGGRAPH is to trot over to your
local technical library and find a copy of Communications of the ACM.
Somewhere within the first few pages will be an application blank.
Fill it out and mail it in.  ACM membership for students costs $23.00,
Voting or Associate Membership $77.00 (yearly)

SIGGRAPH student membership costs an additional $16.00, $26.00 for
Voting or Associate Members (also yearly).  To get TOG (Transactions
on Graphics) it's another $26.00 for students and $31.00 for Voting or
Associate Members.

If you just want to join SIGGRAPH without joining ACM, it'll cost you
$59.00 (no student discount).

There are surcharges for overseas airmailing of publications.

ACM Member services may be contacted via email at acmhelp@acmvm.bitnet. 
Their phone number is (212) 626-0500.  FAX number (212) 944-1318.
Snailmail address:

                ACM
                PO Box 12114
                Church Street Station
                New York, New York 10257

SIGGRAPH `93 will be held in Anaheim, California, at the Anaheim
Convention Center (just up the street from Disneyland) on August 1-6, 1993.

26) Where can I find MRI and CT scan volume data?

Volume data sets are available from the University of North Carolina at
omicron.cs.unc.edu (152.2.128.159) in /pub/softlab/CHVRTD.  (Commerical
use is prohibited.)

Head data - A 109-slice MRI data set of a human head.

Knee data - A 127-slice MRI data set of a human knee.

HIPIP data - The result of a quantum mechanical calculation of a SOD data
of a one-electron orbital of HIPIP, an iron protein.

SOD data - An electron density map of the active site of SOD (superoxide
dismutase). 

CT Cadaver Head data - A 113-slice MRI data set of a CT study of a cadaver
head. 

MR Brain data -  A 109-slice MRI data set of a head with skull partially
removed to reveal brain.

RNA data - An electron density map for Staphylococcus Aureus Ribonuclease.

27) Specific references on spatial data structures including quadtrees

H. Samet,
The Design and Analysis of Spatial Data Structures,
Addison-Wesley, Reading, MA, 1990.
ISBN 0-201-50255-0.

H. Samet,
Applications of Spatial Data Structures:  Computer Graphics, Image Processing, a
nd GIS,
ISBN 0-201-50300-0.

28) Where can I get a program to plot XY(Z) data or f(x) data?

Gnuplot is a command-driven interactive data/function  plotting program.  It
runs on just about any machine, and is very flexible in terms of supported
output devices.  The official North American distribution site for the latest
version is dartmouth.edu in /pub/gnuplot.  More information is available from
the USENET newsgroup comp.graphics.gnuplot and its FAQ, graphics/gnuplot-faq.

ACE/gr (xmgr - Motif/xvgr - XView) is a data/function plotting tool for 
workstations or X-terminals using X.  Available from ftp.ccalmr.ogi.edu
in /CCALMR/pub/acegr.

robotx (Robot) is a general purpose plotting and data analysis program.
Requires XView, X-terminal or workstation.  Available from sunsite.unc.edu
in /pub/academic/data_analysis.

Xgraph is a popular two-dimensional plotting program that accepts data in a
form similar to the unix program graph and displays line graphs, scatter plots,
or bar charts on an X11 display.  Available from ic.berkeley.edu in /pub.

Drawplot is a program for drawing 2D plots on X10/X11 windows, SUNVIEW
displays, or HP2648 terminals. Available from xcf.berkeley.edu in /src/local.

29) Specific references on PEX and PHIGS

    PEXlib Programming Manual, Tom Gaskins, 1154 pages, O'Reilly & Associates,
	ISBN 1-56592-028-7

    PEXlib Reference Manual, edited by Steve Talbott, 577 pages, O'Reilly &
	Associates, ISBN 1-56592-029-5

    PHIGS Programming Manual, Tom Gaskins, 908 pages, O'Reilly & Associates,
	ISBN 0-93775-85-4 (softcover), ISBN 0-937175-92-7 (casebound)

    PHIGS Reference Manual, edited by Linda Kosko, 1099 pages, O'Reilly &
	Associates, ISBN 0-937175-91-9

30) SIGGRAPH Online Bibliography Project

The ACM SIGGRAPH Online Bibliography Project is a database of over 15,000
unique computer graphics and computational geometry references in BibTeX
format, available to the computer graphics community as a research and
educational resource.

The database is located at "siggraph.org".  Users may download the BibTeX
files via FTP and peruse them offline, or telnet to "siggraph.org" and log
in as "biblio" and interactively search the database for entries of interest,
by keyword.

Additions/corrections/suggestions may be directed to the admin,
"bibadmin@siggraph.org".

In <1993Apr20.004119.6119@cnsvax.uwec.edu> nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (David Nye) 

Why? How? Might makes right? How can they force their morality on me? Why 
can't I do what I want? Who are they to decide? What if I disagree? 

Good point, but it is being immoral in our opinion.  We don't let them choose,
we make the decision that their actions are wrong for them.

  For someone to lay claim to an alternative

I admit to lean toward the idea of an innate moral sense, but have little basis
for it as of yet.  How far can such a concept be extended?

 and

Do you mean that we could say it would be wrong for us to do such a thing but 
not him.  After all, he was behaving morally in his own eyes and doing what he
chose.  On what basis do we condemn other societies besides, here's the buzz 
words, on the idea that there are some actions wrong for all humans in all 
societies?

  Holding that morality is subjective does not mean

Why not? Do we have to be objective suddenly?

MAC
--

But in this case I said I hoped that BCCI was *not* an Islamic bank.

Kent, with regards to the information contained in the Bible (which
is the original context of this thread), Brian Kendig is inside a huge
wall.  Brian *IS* inside.  The Bible and the information contained therein
are outside the wall.   Brian Kendig proves this very sad fact by the
absurd things he says.  For example, "If I get through into the firey
pit, I will cease to exist."  The Bible doesn't say that.  He hasn't
a clue even to what Jesus said about hell.  That is but one example.

Host swdsrv.edvz.univie.ac.at

    Location: /pc/dos/graphics
           FILE -rw-r--r--      21525  Mar  7 18:00  uvesa31.zip

    Location: /micros/pc/garbo/pc/screen
           FILE -r--r--r--      21795  Apr  4 00:00  uvesa31.zip
    Location: /micros/pc/oak/graphics
           FILE -r--r--r--      21525  Mar  7 19:00  uvesa31.zip

Host godzilla.cgl.rmit.oz.au

    Location: /kjb/MGL
           FILE -rw-r--r--      22887  Mar 29 15:03  uvesa32.zip

Host nic.switch.ch

    Location: /mirror/msdos/graphics
           FILE -rw-rw-r--      21525  Mar  7 20:00  uvesa31.zip
    Location: /software/pc/simtel20/graphics

Host ipc1.rvs.uni-hannover.de

    Location: /pub/msdos-koeln/graphics/egavga
           FILE -rw-r--r--      21525  Apr  4 17:08  uvesa31.zip

Host sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de

    Location: /pub/msdos/simtel/graphics
           FILE -rw-rw-r--      21525  Mar  7 19:00  uvesa31.zip

Host athene.uni-paderborn.de

    Location: /pcsoft/msdos/graphics

    Location: /mirrors/wustl/mirrors/msdos/graphics
           FILE -rw-r--r--      21525  Mar  7 19:00  uvesa31.zip

Host rigel.acs.oakland.edu

    Location: /pub/msdos/graphics

Host pc.usl.edu

    Location: /pub/msdos/video.and.graphics
           FILE -rw-r--r--      21525  Mar 11 10:41  uvesa31.zip

Host isfs.kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp

    Location: /mirrors/simtel20.msdos/graphics
           FILE -rw-rw-r--      11425  Mar 13 16:41  uvesa10.zip
           FILE -rw-rw-r--      21525  Mar  8 12:00  uvesa31.zip

Host ftp.uu.net

    Location: /systems/ibmpc/msdos/simtel20/graphics
           FILE -rw-rw-r--      21525  Mar  7 14:00  uvesa31.zip
-- 

I posted that document (forgot part 1/6 etc) but it was more than a summary,
it was a complete technical description of the protocol. It can be ftped
from simtel or from wuarchive.wustl.edu in mirrors/msdos/naplps

Why not write a NAPLPS decoder for your choice of platform and release the
code to the net? Then other willing souls can help port it to other platforms.
NAPLPS was designed for this type of online interactive graphics much the
same as X, but while X is intended for high-bandwidth network connections,
NAPLPS was optimized for low bandwidth modem connections.

I'm sure you will receive other suggestions but look at it this way. If you
wanted to provide a full network connection to Linux over a modem would you
use SLIP/PPP or would you invent some new way? Most people would say that
SLIP/PPP exist and are reasonably well designed protocols, so lets just
implement them. I see it the same way with NAPLPS. It is an existing, well
thought out, extensible protocol for online graphics, so why not implement
it.

If you need any advice on implementation, just e-mail me. I am currently
getting a beta version of my CorelDraw to NAPLPS converter working well
enough to release it by May 15. If you or someone else does not get going
on a freely available NAPLPS decoder, then I intend to do it after I get
a my conversion program out of beta, and get a couple of other things done.

Pennicillin if i have everything correct,  was a highly valuable
Myco-toxin,  discovered during WW2.  It proved to have an amazing
Bacterio-cidal effect without human toxicity.   It's immediate
administration  showed immediate dramatic results  solving
problems  that previously were fatal.  Although initially
enormously expensive to culture,  within 3 years,
the price had fallen at least two orders of magnitude,
and within 10 years,  was  not much more expensive then
aspirin.  Penicillin was also usable for an amazingly wide
class of infections.

Centoxin is a drug that is not passing FDA approval.  It promised
amazing results for Toxic shock, a rapidly fatal disease.
It consumed enormous amounts of funding  in testing and
developement,  However it works  less then 1 in 5 times
of administration  and costs $2,000 per administration
with no promise of any reduction in manufacturing cost.
The drug thus costs $10,000 per useful case,  and is
implicated in a slight increase in mortality for some
patients.

I would not dare to compare the shuttle to Pennicillin,
but to centoxin.

Once the Rushdie situation exploded into the media, the Muslim voice on
the matter of the book was effectively restricted to short video bytes
showing
the dramatic highlights of Muslim demonstrations. For every twenty or so
newspaper, magazine articles, interviews etc. supporting Rushdie, there
would
appear one Muslim voice. This person was usually selected based on how
dramatic and incoherent he was, not on his knowledge of Islam or the
situation at the time. This approx. twenty to one ratio continued
throughout the escalation of the crisis, with Rushdie in the central
spotlight as the man of the moment, the valiant defender of everyman's
right to free speech decoupled from responsibility. (As an aside, it's
interesting that while the hue and cry about freedom of speech went up,
some books (defaming certain ethnic and religious groups) continued
to be banned here. It was felt that they injured the sensibilities of these

groups and presented a false image which could promote feelings of 
hate towards these groups. For Muslims this kind of double standard 
was annoying.)

Rushdie saw this spotlight as a golden opportunity to lash out at
"organized"
Islam, and he did so with admirable verbal skill. The only kind of Islam
which Rushdie finds palatable is what he calls a "secular" Islam - an Islam
separated from it's Qur'an, it's Prophet, God, its legislation, and most
importantly from any intrusion into any political arena. Fine - Rushdie
made
his views known - the Muslim's made their anger at his book known. The
scale of the whole affair erupted into global proportions - it was, by this
time,
already a political situation - affecting governments as well as
individuals.
The situation was a serious one, with far-reaching political implications.
At the centre of this turmoil was Rushdie, throwing fuel on the fire -
engaged
in a personal crusade that made him oblivious to any sense of caution.

Now you may feel that the person in the centre of a worldwide storm such as

this has no responsibility, has no reason to exercise restraint of any
kind, has no
obligation to perhaps step back momentarily out of the spotlight till
matters calm down. Perhaps you even feel that he is justified in "boldly"
defying the anger of all those who dare to take umbrage at his literary
work, no matter what insult they find within it. Perhaps you see him as
a kind of secular "heroic Knight",mounted on the his media steed,
 doing battle with the "dragon" of Islamic "fundamentalism".

Well Khomeini saw him as a disingeneous author who 
grew up in a Muslim atmosphere, knew well what Muslim's hold dear, 
who wrote a book which mischievously uses certain literary conventions
to slander, insult, and attack Islam and its most notable personalities -
who, when
faced with a situation that became a worldwide crisis, continued with
his mischief in the world stage of the media - who, even after people were
injured and killed because of the magnitude and emotion of the situation,
continued his mischief, instead of having the good sense to desist.
Khomeini saw the crisis as mischief making on a grand scale, mischief
making that grew in scale as the scale of the crisis enlarged. The deaths
of Muslims around the world and Rushdie's continued media mischief
even after this, was the triggering factor that seemed to
decide Khomeini on putting a stop to the mischief. The person at the
centre of all these events was Rushdie - he was the source of the
continuing mischief - all media support, government support was
just that - support. The source was Rushdie (and his publishers, who
were nothing short of ecstatic at the publicity and were very happy
to see Rushdie constantly in the media). The Islamic rulings that
deal with people who engage in this kind of grand-scale mischief
making, was applied to Rushdie.

I have made no attempts at justification, only at explanation. "Image" is
the chief concern of Muslim 'apologists' for Islam and for Rushdie.
If Muslims willingly relegated themselves to becoming a sub-culture
within a larger secular culture, such that the secular principles and laws
had precedence over the laws of Islam - then I have no doubt that Islam
would then be thought to have a good "image" (Principally because it would
by and large reflect the secular image). A "good image" usually means " be
more
like me".

Your attempts at TOTALLY exonerating Rushdie reflect exactly the attitude
that
resulted in the polarization brought about by the crisis.

Yes, unless the observer is at rest with respect to the singularity at
infinite distance away. But an observer on a close approach to the BH will
see the particle go in in finite time.

Peter

Static test firings are now scheduled for this Saturday.....after many
schedule changes.....

STS 55     
1 22640U 93 27  A 93117.91666666  .00044808  00000-0  13489-3 0    63
2 22640  28.4614 259.3429 0005169 259.6342  61.8074 15.90673799   201

Using greenhouses to extend the growing season shouldn't be a problem.
I'm supprised they don't do so in Alaska (cheaper to import, perhaps?)

No, the Incas had no problems with this, but the Spanish did.

#>In article <1993Apr20.070156.26910@abo.fi> MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI
#
#>#      Ah, that old chestnut, your claim that moral objectivism ==
#>#scientific objectivism. I don't agree with it; now try proving, through
#>#some objective moral test, that my disagreeing is incorrect. =)
#> 
#> Your claim, which you have deleted now was "not universal => not objective".
#
#      I've deleted it now, in the interest of brevity. Go back a step
#and you'll see it was still in your post. Yes, that was my claim; if you
#can refute it, then please do so.

Firstly, an apology.  You hadn't deleted your claim, and I was mistaken in
saying you had. Sorry for any offence caused.

Secondly,  how can I refute your definition?  I can only point up its
logical implications, and say that they seem to contradict the usage
of the word "objective" in other areas.  Indeed, by your definition, an
objective x is an oxymoron, for all x.  I have no quibble with that
belief, other than that it is useless, and that "objective" is a perfectly
good word.

#> So, what *is* objective?  Not the age of the universe, anyway, as I show
#> above.
#
#      How many ages can the universe have, and still be internally self-
#consistent? I'd be amazed if it was more than one. How many different
#moral systems can different members of society have - indeed, single
#individuals, in some cases - and humanity still stick together?

Begging the question.  People can have many opinions about the age
of the universe and humanity can still stick together.   You are
saying that the universe has a _real_ age, independent of my beliefs about
it.  Why?

#      The age of the universe, like most scientific facts, can be
#emirically verified through means that'll give the same result no matter
#who performs the testing (albeit there are error bars that may be on the
#largish side...). 

This assumes that the universe has a real age, or any kind of reality
which doesn't depend on what we think.   Why should an extreme Biblical
Creationist give a rat's ass about the means of which you speak?

#I've heard of no way to verify morality in a
#consistent way, much less compute the errors of the measurement; care to
#enlighten me?

The same is true of pain, but painkillers exist, and can be predicted
to work with some accuracy better than a random guess.  I wrote
elsewhere that morality should be hypotheses about observed value.
If a moral system makes a prediction "It will be better if...",
that can be tested, and is falsifiable in the same way as a prediction
"This drug will relieve pain..."

#      People's *ideas* about the age of object X are *not* objective;
#you can have any idea you like, and I can't stop you. Universae and
#their ages is another ballgame; they are what they are, and if you
#dislike some detail of them, that's a problem with your *opinion* of
#them. 

Sure.  Assume an objective reality, and you get statements like this.

#I claim that morality is an opinion of ours, and as such
#subjective and individual. If I'm wrong, then some more-or-less
#objectively "real" thing exists, which you label "objective morality";
#can you back up this positive claim of existence?

Can you back up your positive claim above?  No.  That's because it's an
assumption.  I make the same assumption about values, on the basis
that there is no logical difference between the two, and the empirical
basis of the two is precisely the same.

#> 
#> And if a "real large lot" (nice phrase) of people agree that there is a 
#> football on a desk, I'm supposed to see a logical difference between the two?  
#> Perhaps you can explain the difference to me, since you seem to see it
#> so clearly.
#
#      Take a look on the desk - i.e., perform a test. If(football) THEN
#(accept theory) ELSE DO (Tell people they're hallucinating).
#
#      Now take a look at morality. See anything? If so, please inform me
#which way to look, and WHY to look that particular way, as opposed to
#some other. Get my drift?

No. Just look.  Are you claiming never to know what good means?

#>#      *Science* is a whole other matter altogether.
#> 
#> Says you.  Prove that those who disagree are wrong?
#
#      That's a simple(?) matter of proving the track record of the
#scientific method.

I think it's great, and should be applied to values.  I may be completely
wrong, but that's what I conclude as a result of quite an amount of
thought.

Is it not also an abomination that somebody would spend money on "space 
advertising" when those children are starving? Perhaps some redistribution
of wealth would help them ...

Zoroaster is far older than Daniel. If anything, one could claim that,
in a sense, Daniel is a descendant of Zoroaster; as Daniel, though being
Hebrew, has assimilated into Zoroastrianism and has successfully
introduced the religion into the Tanakh of Judaism. [However, the majority 
of the book is in Hellenistic Aramaic (not Babylonian Aramaic) and only has
Kethuvim or Writing status.]

Ref: Encyclopedia of Religion, Mircea Eliade:

DANIEL, or, in Hebrew, Daniyye'l; hero of the biblical book that bears his name.
Daniel is presented as a Jew in the Babylonian exile who achieved notoriety in
the royal court for his dream interpretations and cryptography and for his
salvation from death in a lion's pit. He also appears in the last chapters of
the book as the revealer of divine mysteries and of the timetables of Israel's
restoration to national-religious autonomy. As a practitioner of oneiromancy in
the court, described in Daniel 1-6 (written in the third person), Daniel per-
forms his interpretations alone, while as a visionary-apocalyptist, in Daniel
7-12 (written in the first person), he is in need of an angel to help him
decode his visions and mysteries of the future. It is likely that the name
Daniel is pseudonymous, a deliberate allusion to a wise and righteous man known
from Ugaritic legend and earlier biblical tradition. (Ez. 14:4,28:3).
  The authorship of the book is complicated not only by the diverse narrative
voices and content but by its language: Daniel 1:1-2:4a and 8-12 are written in
Hebrew, whereas Daniel 2:4b-7:28 is in Aramaic. The language division parallels
the subject division (Daniel 1-6 concerns legends and dream interpretations;
7-12 concerns apocalyptic visions and interpretations of older prophecies). The
overall chronological scheme as well as internal thematic balances (Daniel 2-7
is chiliastically related) suggest an attempt at redactional unity. After the
prefatory tale emphasizing the life in court and the loyalty of Daniel and some
youths to their ancestral religion, a chronological ordering is discernable: a
sequence from King Nebuchadrezzar to Darius is reported (Dn. 7-12). Much of
this royal dating and even some of the tales are problematic: for example,
Daniel 4 speaks of Nebuchadrezzar's transformation into a beast, a story that
is reported in the Qumran scrolls of Nabonidus; Belshazzar is portrayed as the
last king of Babylon, although he was never king; and Darius is called a Mede
who conquered Babylon and is placed before Cyrus II of Persia, although no such
Darius is known (the Medes followed the Persians, and Darius is the name of
several Persian kings). Presumably the episodes of Daniel 2-6, depicting a
series of monarchical reversals, episodes of ritual observances, and reports of
miraculous deliverances were collected in the Seleucid period (late fourth to
mid-second century BCE) in order to reinvigorate waning Jewish hopes in divine
providence and encourage steadfast faith.
  The visions of Daniel 7-12, reporting events from the reign of Belshazzar to
that of Cyrus II (but actually predicting the overthrow of Seleucid rule in
Palestine), were collected and published during the reign of Antiochus IV prior
to the Maccabean Revolt, for it was then (beginning in 168 BCE) that the Jews
were put to the test concerning their allegiance to Judaism and their ancestral
traditions, and many refused to desecrate the statues of Moses and endured a
martyr's death for their resolute trust in divine dominion. All of the visions
of Daniel dramatize this dominion in different ways: for example, via images of
the enthronement of a God of judgment, with a "son of man" invested with rule
(this figure was interpreted by Jews as Michael the archangel and by Christians
as Christ), in chapter 7; via zodiacal images of cosmic beasts with bizarre
manifestations, as in chapter 8; or via complex reinterpretations of ancient
prophecies, especially those of Jeremiah 25:9-11, as found in Daniel 9-12.
  The imagery of the four beasts in chapter 7 (paralleled by the image of four
metals in chapter 2), representing four kingdoms to be overthrown by a fifth
monarchy of divine origin, is one of the enduring images of the book; it sur-
vived as a prototype of Jewish and Christian historical and apocalyptic schemes
to the end of the Middle Ages. The role and power of this imagery in the
fifteenth and sixteenth century work of the exegete Isaac Abravanel, the
scientist Isaac Newton, and the philosopher Jean Bodin and among the Fifth
Monarchy Men of seventeenth century England, for example, is abiding testimony
to the use of this ancient topos in organizing the chiliastic imagination of
diverse thinkers and groups. The schema is still used to this day by various
groups predicting the apocalyptic advent.
  The encouragement in the face of religious persecution that is found and
propagandized in Daniel 11-12 contains a remarkable reinterpretation of Isaiah
52:13-53:12, regarding the suffering servant of God not as all Israel but as
the select faithful. Neither the opening stories about Daniel and the youths nor
the final martyrological allusions advocate violence or revolt; they rather
advocate a stance of piety, civil disobedience, and trustful resignation.
Victory for the faithful is in the hands of the archangel Michael, and the
martyrs will be resurrected and granted astral immortality. Persumably the
circles behind the book were not the same as the Maccabean fighters and may
reflect some proto-Pharisaic group of hasidim, or pietists. The themes of
resistance to oppression, freedom of worship, preservation of monotheistic
integrity, the overthrow of historical dominions, and the acknowledgement of
the God of heaven recur throughout the book and have served as a token of
trust for the faithful in their darkest hour.

Nowadays, usually with a computer. No theory predicted the numeric 
discoveries listed above. No one can yet write an algorithm that will
predict the precise behavior of any of these at any precise level of
their evolution. So it remains for experimenters to gather data on their
behavior.

Gary

Ah, you taking everything as literal quotation.  No wonder you're confused.

First, can I ask that we decide on a definition of "objective"?

And?

I'd guess that it might be.

It may be the case that some people are unable to evaluate complex moral
issues.  Rather than leaving them to behave "immorally", it might be better
to offer them an abstract (nonexistent objective) system of ethics which they
can strive towards, coded into rules which they don't have to derive for

I tend to feel that this is pretty much what we all have as morality
anyway...

Ethics deal with individuals.  Morals deal with groups.

Please describe these "number of ways" in detail.  Then explain any

The sentence, "Yes, it's possible, but it is difficult."  Humans survived
"in the wild" for hundreds of thousands of years.

Answer the question, Keith.  Is homosexuality detrimental to the survival
of the species?

Could someone please post Roger Grywalski's response?  Or point me to where
I could find it?

S. Raj Chaudhury			|
Dept. of Physics    			|  raj@phys.ksu.edu
Kansas State University			|
Manhattan, KS 66506			|

...

Does it matter that the study (yes, singular) that showed LSD causing
birth defects also holds true for aspirin?  Does it matter that
this study is flat-out wrong, and LSD does not give you a greater
risk of having children with birth defects?

I feel compelled to complain: the statement that recent observations
rule out merging neutron stars as sources of gamma-ray bursts is
utterly false, even though it is popular enough to make it to
BATSE press releases.
The idea behind the statement is as follows: 
     "if you smack two neutron
      stars together, or have a neutron star be gobbled up by a black hole,
      a lot of energy is released, enough for a gamma-ray burst at a
      cosmological distance. But, so the reasoning continues, this energy 
      is released below a lot of matter, so the radiation becomes
      thermalized and you expect to see roughly a blackbody spectrum.
      The observed spectra are strongly non-thermal, so this model must
      be wrong."
As so often, the fault lies with the imagination of the person who
was trying to prove the model wrong rather than with the model. It
may be that the initial energy release is not seen as a gamma-ray
burst, but the 'fireball' of energy and matter that is created
may spew out a relativistic flow. When this slams into the surrounding 
medium, a strong flux of non-thermal gamma rays results, which may
carry off a substantial fraction of the initial total energy. All
this is not my idea: it is in a series of papers by Martin Rees,
Peter Meszaros (sorry for the missing accents:-) and co-workers.
It is certainly not a complete model, but it may well be the best one
around (summing over all proposed distance scales). An alternative
proposal for what creates the initial fireball, by the way, is the 
so-called 'failed supernovae' scenario by Stan Woosley, in which
a very massive star at the end of its life collapses to a black
hole. If the stellar core was rotating, part of the infalling matter
will be temporarily halted because it is supported by centrifugal
force, and form a very dense neutron torus that accretes onto the
black hole. This beast may spew out a jet along the rotation axis,
which again constitutes relativistic flow. The rate of such
events may be much higher than that of neutron star mergers,
but the flux may be more strongly beamed, so that the net rate
of bursts observed on Earth stays the same between the two
scenarios, but the energy released per event can be a lot less
in the failed supernova scenario.

On another note: I do believe that the distance scale must 
ultimately be resolved via some classical astronomical method
such as finding counterparts to the bursts at other wavelengths,
or finding a definitive signature of some known class of
objects in the distribution of positions and fluxes. Theorists
have historically not been too successfull in finding the
distance of any object by proving that there is only one
possible way in which the object can work, and therefore
it *must* be so-and-so.

Dale sez;

I don't buy it.  If the things had no value at all, people wouldn't
spend money to make them. So their lack of value is just your
opinion, not an actual fact, which is neither a philisophical or
legal basis for prohibiting them.

On the other hand, I lived in OakBrook IL for a while, where zoning
laws prohibit billboards, as you mention above.  I think it was a
fine law, despite it's contradictory basis.

I would guess that the best legal and moral basis for protest would
be violation of private property.  "I bought this house, out in
the boondocks, specifically to enjoy my hobby, amateur astronomy.  Now
this billboard has made that investment worthless, so I want the
price of the property, in damages."  It wouldn't take too many
succesful cases like that to make bill-sats prohibitively expensive.

-Tommy Mac

The forces and accelerations involved in doing a little bit of orbital
maneuvering with HST aboard are much smaller than those involved in
reentry, landing, and re-launch.  The OMS engines aren't very powerful;
they don't have to be.

I think you have are addressing the wrong issue. The situation
is more like: we both see some elves. This is established as
fact since we can both touch them etc. Then one of us says, the
elves have always been with us. The other says, no no there was
a time before elves were here. Which is the positive argument?

I have a very large (3x5 feet) file in Macintosh Canvas v2.something
which I need to import into AutoCad 12 in the least disk-space intensive
way possible.  (i.e. EPS is a big problem, since it took 1.3 MEG to encode
one page of the document)  The file is entirely lines and words.  I have
access to networked Macs & PC's, and ftp.  Can anyone suggest how this might
be accomplished?  Email replies, if you would, I don't read this group much.

For example, I would claim that the recent assassination of four
catholic construction workers who had no connection with the IRA
was probably religously motivated.

What would you call is when someone writes "The killings in N.I 
are not religously motivated?"

Given that the avowed aim of the IRA is to take Northern Ireland
into a country that has a particular church written into its 
constitution, and which has restriction on civil rights dictated
by that Church, I fail to see why the word "past" is appropriate.

You don't have to hand us a bunch of double-talk about what
I was "seemingly" attacking.   I *quoted* what I was attacking.

[Discussion on Josephus inserts]

Thanks.  Am I correct, then, in assuming that that Josephus
did in fact write about Jesus, but Christian copists embellished it?

Well, I agree.  I hope others chime in with suggestions on specific
technologies which could be applied towards the maintenance of an
Earth like atmosphere on a long-duration spacecraft.

Tim et al:
I think we should try looking at atmosphere first.
This seems to be the single most fundamental issue in keeping anyone alive.
We're all taught that when supporting a patient
you look for maintaining airway. So, in keeping with my trauma training
(and keeping my emergency medicine professor happy), I suggest that
we look at the issues surrounding a regenerable atmospheric circuit.

Howz that Tim?

I have posted DISP140.ZIP to alt.binaries.pictures.utilities.
I will upload this package to SIMTEL20 later.

Important changes since Version 1.35:
  Added support for IRIS.
  Support Mix/Concat. two images.
  Added support for 'batch conversion'.
  Added support for 'load/save palette table'.
  Added support for 'edge enhance'.
  Added support for 'crop one line'.
  Added support for 'negate image'.
  New color quantization option.
  Fix some minor bugs.

  formts.
+ Support 'batch conversion'.

  * 80387

  * DPMI

  *** But some people report that this go32.exe is not compatible with
      other DJGPP programs in their system. If you encounter this problem,
      DON'T put go32.exe within search path.

    GO32.

    Usage : display [-d|--display initial_display_type]
                    [-s|--sort sort_method]
                    [-h|-?]

    Sort method: 'name', 'ext'

    F2 : Change disk drive.

    CTRL-A -- CTRL-Z : change disk drive.

    F3 : Change filename mask. (See match.doc)

    F4 : Change parameters.

    F7 : Make Directory.

    t : Tag file.

    + : Tag group files. (See match.doc)

    T : Tag all files.

    u : Untag file.

    - : Untag group files. (See match.doc)

    U : Untag all files.

    F6,m,M : Move file(s).

+   ALT-M : Move single file(ignore tag).

    F8,d,D : Delete file(s).

+   ALT-D : Delete single file(ignore tag).

    r,R : Rename file.

    c,C : Copy File(s).

+   ALT-C : Copy single file(ignore tag).

    f,F : Display disk free space.

    Page Up/Down : Move one page.

        Left,Right arrow: Change display type(8, 15, 16, 24 bits).

+   CTRL-Arrow keys : Crop image by one line(in graphics mode).

    s,S : Slide Show(show tagged files). ESCAPE to terminate.

+   b,B : Batch conversion(convert tagged files to single format).

+   w,W : Wait/Pause in slide show.

    ALT-A : Reread directory.

+       FITS(.fit), Usenix FACE(.fac), IRIS(.sgi).

+        Mac PICT, VIS, FITS, FACE, PCX, GEM/IMG, IRIS.

      menu you can press any function key. If you move or copy
      The header line in 'read' menu includes "(d:xx,f:xx,t:xx)".
        d : display type. f: number of files. t: number of tagged files.
+       'w' or 'W' to pause, any key to continue.
+     pressing F5 will turn on 'effect' menu.

      You can do special effect on image.
        mode.

Why don't you tell us, Tony?  I'm sure what you THINK you know adds up to a
lot more than what Casper has.

Doesn't it frustrate you to consider how many intelligent, thoughtful 
people you have prepared for the Mormon missionaries with your rant?  The
more you talk, the better we look.  Nothing makes the truth look better
than a background of falsehood.

Sic 'em, Tony!

[reply to kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)]
 
Jeez, can't he get anything straight.  I told him to wait for three
days.
 
GOD

	This happens when your X server has run out of memory. You need
more memory or you need to quit any un-neccessary running clients.

Give him the $2, leave the house and call the police.  That's what I would
do.  I will not kill to protect mere possessions.

It would be nice if someone here from the HST program was talking instead
of all the speculation that is going on here. From what I understand from
Dr. Frank Six of the Marshall Space Flight Center there is no insrmountable
problem in bringing HST back. IT was designed that way to begin with.

Also it is my understanding that the solar arrays WILL be one of the items
replaced on this mission. The originals were built by Brit Aerospace and
I think the new ones are too. I am currently working with the guys at MSFC
that are in charge is the HST power system, although I have not spoken with
them in a long time about HST. 

I can't see the need for a single (big? expensive? heavy?) "mothership" except
for Voyager style flyby missions. A few years ago, I did some calculations on a
"Grand Tour" space probe launched by a Saturn V in 1975-76. At the time,I felt 
that
the idea of a big "mother ship" had some merit - the Voyagers had to be rather
small, lightweight craft due to the limitations imposed by using weak Titan
III/Centaur launchers. The concept I examined (and Michael's?) had a lot in
common with the British Interplanetary Society's Daedalus project for sending a
probe to Barnard's Star - i.e. a large "bus" spacecraft carrying several
smaller probes to be dispatched when the ship arrives at its destination.
The Saturn V supposedly would have been able to launch a 10-ton payload towards
Jupiter and beyond. The "bus" could have included far more powerful
cameras/telescopes/scientific equipment and a heavier/more powerful power
source than the Voyagers as there would be no limitations on weight anymore.
Extremely important as the Voyagers had to perform most of their measurements
within a couple of weeks before and after planetary encounter, and usually at a
relatively great distance.
---
The smaller probes carried aboard might have been based on the "real" Voyagers,
and an even smaller version like the one scheduled for launch towards Pluto in
the early 21st century, and would have been released at various points during
the mission. The advantages are obvious: the bus would have carried out the
same basic Jupiter-Saturn-Uranus-Neptune mission than Voyager 2 did, but in
addition two "sub-probes" could have been relased at Saturn, examining
that planet's south polar regions before moving on to Pluto. This would have
enabled NASA to map both hemispheres of Pluto/Charon by 1986...and several
other probes could have examined parts of the Jupiter/Saturn/Uranus/Neptune
systems that weren't examined in great detail by the Voyagers due to
trajectory-related factors. A small "swarm" of camera-equipped miniature space
probes released a month before encounter would have been too costly for a 
small Voyager-type mission but entirely feasible if launched from a heavy, 
well-equipped spacecraft. And would we have learned a lot more about the outer
planets! The reason why the Grand Tour was cancelled was lack of money, of
course. 

MARCU$

Well, as I remember Jacoby's "Mythmaker" talks about this to cite
one source -- but I'm not sure if all Christians have read this book.
In addition my social experiences is from being raised and educated
as a Lutheran, having a lot of Christian friends, and I even
have played in two Christian rock bands!

So, over to you, do you have any counter claims, sources et 
rest that shows that Christianity does not have the concept
of a social promise that is independent on the social status?

Cheers,
Kent

Not to mention how those those liberal presidents, Nixon, Ford,
Reagan, Bush.   did nothing to support  true commercial space
activities.

In <1qvh8tINNsg6@citation.ksu.ksu.edu> yohan@citation.ksu.ksu.edu (Jonathan W 

This doesn't seem right.  If I want to kill you, I can because that is what I
decide?

Not really.  If whatever a particular society mandates as ok is ok, there are
always some in the "society" who disagree with the mandates, so which 
societal mandates make the standard for morality?
 >>

So what should be the basis? Unfortunately I have to admit to being tied at 
least loosely to the "feeling", in that I think we intuitively know some things
to be wrong.  Awfully hard to defend, though.

I might agree here.  Just because certain actions are legal does not make them
"moral".
deficits.

--

The subject says it all. I bought Adobe Type Manager and find it completely
useless. I ftped some atm fonts and couldn't install them. What's the use?
Are you supposed to be able to convert ATM fonts to Truetype?

If there's anyone out there who has this program and actually finds it 
useful, enlighten me!

	Considering what you quoted and refered to was blank, I must say:
touche!

	Of course, you are correct, there is no atheistic mythology employed 
on this board. Or, if there is, it is null and void.

---

Hi, Everyone.
I am  currently planning to write a program that traverses the
image of handwritten characters in ascii format and produces
circle and line representation of handwritten characters.
Did anybody out there has any experiences on this problem?
If you have would you post or e-mail to please
kevin

Does anyone has program that traverse the digital image and produces
circle and line
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KEVIN SHIN   kshin@bcstec.ca.boeing.com

  Damn.  And I did so have my hopes up.

I think you've got an off-by-one error in your memory. :-)  MM bought the
satellite-building side of GE.  E, not D.  MM and GD are still competitors.

Better, yes, but we're not talking order of magnitude.  (Especially if you
want to use Titan IV, which belongs to the USAF, not MM.)

Sure, you can get a heavylift launcher fairly cheap if you do it privately
rather than as a gummint project.  But we're still talking about something
that will cost nine digits per launch, unless you can guarantee a large
market to justify volume production.

Thanks to the people who have answered here and in email to my 
question about which countries engage in space surveillance. 
Unfortunately, I apparently didn't make the meaning of the message 
clear, since most replies have addressed satellite reconnaissance, 
rather than space surveillance 

     What I meant was _not_ which countries use satellites to look at 
the Earth (satellite reconnaissance) , but _was_ which countries have 
programs to detect and track (i.e., determine the orbital elements of) 
satellites as they pass overhead (space surveillance). 

    The US uses missile-defense radars, supplemented by a fascinating 
quasi-radar operated by the Navy, to do this for satellites in LEO, and 
electrooptical systems for objects at altitudes above 5,000 km or so. 
The FEE, I understand, does much the same thing. 

    Amateur satellite observers use eyeballs, binoculars, stopwatches 
and PCs for objects out to around 1500 km, enabling them to keep track 
of satellites for which, ah, official element sets aren't available. 
See the fascinating books by Desmond King-Hele for details, as well as 
the files in the molczan directory on kilroy.jpl.nasa.gov.  The 
material posted in my previous message suggests that Japan engages in 
optical and radar space surveillance to a modest degree, and it may be 
that other countries do also. 

    Which was the question I meant to ask: who are they, how do they do 
it, and why do they do it?

Allen Thomson                     SAIC                        McLean, VA

I certainly like this "Option C"...  It's much more like the original
Phase B studies from the early 1970's.  Good stuff!

    .. blah blah .. talking about hackers.. you know ..

Wow!  A new proof for an NP-Complete problem, you guys in Eurpoe
really got your stuff together!

Base Step:  [deleted too bad]

Inductive Step:

Inductive Hypothesis:

Fodder Step:

Like my mother always said, if you can't say something nice...
  or was that can't say something right?

					- kxh

Yes, weightlessness does feel like falling.  It may feel strange at first,
but the body does adjust.  The feeling is not too different from that
of sky diving.

My last response in this thread fell into a bit-bucket and vanished
(though appearing locally).  I'll repost it, since I always feel
slighted when someone appears to ignore one of my postings in a
conversational thread, I don't want Rob to think I'm doing so.  Since
this is now dated, however, don't feel compelled to respond...

I suspect you meant this in context of the Jewish tradition you have
been referring to; one problem with a highly-interpreted tradition
like this is what happens when a schism occurs, and over time certain
large and influential branches of the heretical group come to favor
exactly a "face value" interpretation...

While the context of the time is important, value judgments must
ultimately be according to current understanding, or at least to some
base standard (relative stability/success of a society, e.g.).  This
is obviously true in comparing it to practices of surrounding people,
for instance: according to the Bible, the surrounding people were
immoral savages with repulsive and inhuman habits.  We need to look
rather at what those peoples were *really* like.  For instance, in
what way is it better to worship a single god whose presence is
symbolically strongest in a tent or temple over multiple gods some of
whose presence is symbolically represented in a statue?  By the
Bible's own terms idolatry is inherently evil, but I see no evidence
that the followers of the various other religions of the area and time
were particularly bad people, relative to the people in the Bible.

Sounds good, but it presupposes teeth-rending neighbors, which I see
no support for.  One can argue that post-facto assertion of inhumane
neighbors can be used to make moral points, but that doesn't mean that
the actual neighbors really were inhuman.  More to the point, such
dehumanization of the people across the river or over the mountain, or
even of a different people dwelling among us, is all too common.

Note that I'm speaking of historical interpretation here, for instance
claiming that Hammurabi's "an eye for an eye" was primitive brutal
retribution, while Moses' version was an enlightened benign fine
(because the tradition has since interpreted the phrase that way).  As
of 3000 years ago or so, they probably both meant the same thing.

I don't belittle the accomplishments, particularly the intellectual
ones, of the Jewish people.  I have given up on trying to think by
analogy, since I don't know of any other 'tribe' that is at all
similar (the closest I can think of are the Romany, but I don't know
enough about them to make a meaningful comparison).  I think a
tradition of reflective study, of flexible rather than dogmatic
interpretation, is a good thing.  I think that with such an attitude a
case could be made that you could have done as well starting with a
1943 Captain America comic (or whatever the Babylonian equivalent
would have been).
-- 
Jim Perry   perry@dsinc.com   Decision Support, Inc., Matthews NC
These are my opinions.  For a nominal fee, they can be yours.

.
        It should be remembered that all of the first reports came from 
       the FBI, and that independent observers, i.e. the press, were not 
       allowed to get close and see things for themselves.  Official 
       communiques tend to be self-serving for the agencies that issue 
       them. 
        People in general tend to believe first reports, as these get 
       the most and the biggest headlines.  Corrections are often 
       overlooked. 
         An example is the FBI report that several of the bodies found 
       in the rubble had bullet wounds.  The local coroner, who is 
       independent of the FBI, has so far found no bullet wounds! 

  Contact:

Ottawa, ON

(Survey 3)

	VRL
	CA 93401

NCAR data
---------

NASA
----

Others
------

  Address:

  Contact:

------

  P.O. Box N

  14th Floor

   Contact:

  suggest:

c. Others:
???

a. Teapot ?

model1:

model2:

model3:

model4:

model5:

Spyglass
--------

  Contact:

  Contact:

MacPhase
--------

  I know]

apE
---

        Cost:

AVS
---
See also:

Contact:

  DEC for DEC

WIT
---

  Contact:
  V5G 4M1

VIS-5D
------

  ftp> ascii
  ftp> bye

  Contact:

  Contact:

Wavefront
---------

  Contacts:

XGRAPH
------

NCAR
----

  Contact:

  Cost:
	.edu

	.gov
	$750 1 user

IDL
---

IDL/SIPS
--------

 -- nfotis ]

Visual3
-------

FieldView
---------

 Contact:

 P.O. Box 65
        
SciAn
------

SCRY
----

 Contact:
 
       or

SVLIB / FVS

  Contact
  -------

IAP
---

Flex
----

XtalView
--------

KGNGRAF
-------

XBall V2.0

XMol
----

INSIGHT II

SCARECROW
---------

MULTI
-----

MindTool
--------
  It runs under SunView, and requires a fortran compiler and Sun's CGI
  libraries. MindTool is a tool  provided  for  the  interactive  graphic
  manipulation  of  molecules  and  atoms. Currently, up to 10,000
  atoms may be input.
  Available via anonymous FTP, at rani.chem.yale.edu, directory
  /pub/MindTool ( Check with Archie for other  sites if that's too far )

GRASS
-----

  Support

PCI
---

  areas.

MAP II
------

CLRview
-------

  Contact:

I'm still looking for Fractint drivers or a new release which supports the
 24bit color mode of the Diamond Speedstar 24X.  There are some 2, 4 and 26
 million colros drivers, but none work with the 24X.  

Thanks!

Chad

Even better.  Make up pete conrad in a Martian Suit,
and have him get ou;t  and throw a football
to the refs.

No, MIS folks have infinite budgets of death, and they also get parts
of their budget allocated "upgrades", "maintenance", and "new purchases",
and a lot of IBM mainframe purchases are actually "leases" and so
is the software.

Basically, the engineers who have tight budgets, i.e. the coders and
designers of a company, bitch and moan when they drop 15,000 on a 
Sparc 1 only to see a faster machine appear a year later.  MIS types
upgrade once every 5-10 years, and their costs are amortized and
depreciated over a longer period, and the budget office justifies
the expense because they actually use the machines for accounting,
payroll, etc.

Now, if the budget office was dependant on the engineers for some
reason like payroll and accounts, you'd sure as hell see every
engineer with a new Cray on his desktop every year. :-)

Ah! Excellent. So why doesn't she appear to me? I'm a little weak in the
blind faith department. (Besides, she doesn't even really need to appear:
how about, oh say, a little tip - something like "put your all on #3 in the
7:30 at the Dog Races" ... perhaps in a dream or vision.)

I'm afraid I don't know arabic; I have only read translations. I wouldn't
know it if it were well-written. (Consistent, though, is one thing the Quran
is not.)  And have *you* read it in arabic?  Besides, some of my best
writing has been done under the influence of, shall we say, consciousness
altering substances.

Yes, so? How do we know they *weren't* very good? (Again, assuming that the
Quran is beautfully written.)

Ok, I retract this point. (Although I might still say that once he knew, he
should have done something about it.)

I haven't interviewed all muslims about this; I would really like it if this
were false. But I can't take it on your say-so - what are your sources?

What other basis do we have to judge a system? Especially when we can't get
a consistent picture of what Islam "really" is. Do I believe Khomeini? Do I
go by the Imam of the mosque in Mecca? Or perhaps the guy in New Jersey? Or
perhaps you say I should go only by the Quran. Ok, whose translation? And
what about things like "And wherever you find idolators, kill them"?

-s

                                                        -jeremy
Are you talking about a single BATSE component, or
the whole thing?

You *could* propose a BATSE probe; launch two or three with ion
drive on various planetary trajectories... your resolution increaces
the more they're spaced apart. You could probably cheaply eject them
from the solar system with enough flybys and patience.

Things would start out slow, then slowly get better and better
resolution...

Great start.  I realize immediately that you are not interested
in discussion and are going to thump your babble at me.  I would
much prefer an answer from Ms Healy, who seems to have a
reasonable and reasoned approach to things.  Say, aren't you the
creationist guy who made a lot of silly statements about
evolution some time ago?

Duh, gee, then we must be talking Christian mythology now.  I
was hoping to discuss something with a reasonable, logical
person, but all you seem to have for your side is a repetition
of the same boring mythology I've seen a thousand times before.
I am deleting the rest of your remarks, unless I spot something
that approaches an answer, because they are merely a repetition
of some uninteresting doctrine or other and contain no thought
at all.

[..]

I have to congratulate you, though, Bill.  You wouldn't
know a logical argument if it bit you on the balls.  Such
a persistent lack of function in the face of repeated
attempts to assist you in learning (which I have seen
in this forum and others in the past) speaks of a talent
that goes well beyond my own, meager abilities.  I just don't
seem to have that capacity for ignoring outside influences.

FIRST ANNUAL PHIGS USER GROUP CONFERENCE

          The First Annual PHIGS User Group Conference was held March 21-24
          in Orlando, Florida.  The conference was organized by the Rensse-
          laer Design Research Center in co-operation with  IEEE  and  SIG-
          GRAPH.   Attendees  came  from five countries spanning three con-
          tinents.   A  good  cross-section  of  the  PHIGS  community  was
          represented  at this conference with participants including PHIGS
          users, workstation vendors, third-party PHIGS implementors, stan-
          dards  committee  members,  and  researchers  from  industry  and
          academia.  The opening speaker, Dr. Richard Puk, challenged PHIGS
          users  to  "take  charge of your PHIGS" by participating in PHIGS
          standardization activities and communicating their needs to PHIGS
          implementors.    The   closing  speaker,  Dr.  Andries  Van  Dam,
          described his vision of the future of graphics standards  "beyond
          PHIGS".

          Technical paper sessions in the conference covered the  following
          topics:  PHIGS  and  X, Application Toolkits, Application Issues,
          Texture Mapping, NURBS,  PHIGS  Extensions,  and  Object-Oriented
          Libraries and Frameworks.  Panel sessions on PHIGS and PEX, PHIGS
          Non-Retained Data, Real-World CAD Applications Using  PHIGS,  and
          Portability  Issues generated enthusiastic discussions and formed
          a good forum for exchange of ideas, needs, and experiences.   The
          conference  also included a day full of tutorials on topics rang-
          ing from mathematics for 3D  graphics  to  object-oriented  tools
          based on PHIGS.

          Next year's conference is planned for March, 1994.

          PHIGS EVERYWHERE

          At the conference, PHIGS  vendors   described   and  demonstrated
          PHIGS  products  that  run on all types of computers, from PCs to
          mainframes.

          Megatek Corporation demonstrated their PHIGS extensions including
          conditional traversal, composite logical input devices, texturing
          and translucency.

          Template Graphics  Software  launched  FIGARO+  PRO,  the  Photo-
          Realistic  Option  for  PHIGS+.  FIGARO+  PRO  is designed to add
          advanced rendering to the existing PHIGS+ API, with features like
          ray   tracing,  materials,  anti-aliasing  and  texture  mapping.
          Radiosity support is also planned.

          FIGARO+ is an example of how TGS continues to add newly  emerging
          graphics  features to their products.  FIGARO+ supports immediate
          mode extensions to PHIGS and also supports SUN XGL,  HP  Starbase
          and SGI GL/OpenGL. FIGARO+ for NT will be released this summer.

          TGS also demonstrated the latest versions of FIGraph, a  powerful
          "2-call"  charting  system  based on PHIGS+, and FIGt, an object-
          oriented utility library for PHIGS/PEX developers.

          G5G and Gallium Software demonstrated a new version of GPHIGS  on
          Silicon  Graphics  workstations. Scheduled for summer, 1993, Ver-
          sion 3.0 of GPHIGS, the company's  PHIGS+  library  for  worksta-
          tions,  will include an advanced PHIGS debugger that allows PHIGS
          developers to display and browse PHIGS structures and other PHIGS
          internal  state.  G5G  also  described  their Non-Duplicated Data
          Store that stores pointers to application data in the GPHIGS  CSS
          for  more  efficient  use  of  memory. In addition, G5G described
          their application GSE that allows application callback  functions
          during  GPHIGS traversal.  GPHIGS and PHIGURE, G5G's data visual-
          izer and application development toolkit, are currently available
          on  all  major  workstations  that support GL, X Windows, PEX, or
          Starbase.

          Wise Software presented a slide show of  Z-PHIGS  for  MS-Windows
          and ARENA, a PHIGS based modeller/render. Z-PHIGS implements most
          of the PHIGS+ primitives.  In addition Z-PHIGS has built in  many
          advanced  rendering features like texture mapping, shadow genera-
          tion, area quick updates and ray tracing. A demo disk of  Z-PHIGS
          or ARENA is available on request.

          ATC exhibited GRAFPAK-PHIGS, their full-featured PHIGS  implemen-
          tation  based  on  DEC  PHIGS. GRAFPAK-PHIGS is available on most
          workstation platforms with C, FORTRAN and Ada bindings and incor-
          porates PEX support.

          Within the booth sponsored by Advanced Technology Center, Digital
          Equipment  Corporation demonstrated DEC PHIGS V2.4 running on the
          DEC 3000/400 AXP PXG. ATCs' GRAFPAK-PHIGS is a port of DEC PHIGS.
          DEC  PHIGS  V2.4 contains most PHIGS and PHIGS PLUS features with
          support for PEX V5.1  protocol.  DEC  PHIGS  also  contains  most
          GM/EDS   PHIGS  extensions  including  post-to-view  as  well  as
          proprietary extensions to support immediate  mode  rendering  and
          the use of PHIGS in an X11 environment.

          AXP, DEC, and DEC PHIGS are trademarks of Digital Equipment  Cor-
          poration.  GRAFPAK-PHIGS and ATC are trademarks of Advanced Tech-
          nology Center. PEX and X11 are trademarks of Massachusetts Insti-
          tute of Technology.

          The IBM exhibit featured a GTO accelerator attached to an IBM 340
          workstation running graPHIGS and PEX.

          Hewlett Packard and SHOgraphics demonstrated at the conference. A
          Hewlett  Packard  machine was coupled to display on a SHOgraphics
          PEX terminal. HP showcased their latest  PHIGS  product  enhance-
          ments.

          PHIGS USER GROUP

          The PHIGS Users Group was formed to aid the development of  PHIGS
          applications  and provide user feedback to PHIGS implementors and
          PHIGS standards bodies.  For more  information  about  the  PHIGS
          Users Group, send e-mail to:

                    phigsug@cadrt10.me.vt.edu

          or write to:

                    Sankar Jayaram
                    Virginia Polytechnic Institute
                    114 Randolph Hall
                    Blacksburg, Va. 24061-0238
                    FAX: 703-231-9100

          VENDOR CONTACTS

          Megatek Corporation
          TEL (619) 455-5590
          FAX (619) 453-7603

          Template Graphics Software
          TEL (800) 544-4847
          FAX (619) 452-2547

          WISE software GmbH
          TEL +49-451-3909-413
          FAX +49-451-3909-499

          G5G - North American Sales
          TEL (800) 267-2626
          FAX (613) 592-1278

          Advanced Technology Center
          TEL (800) 999-5711
          FAX (714) 583-9213

          Digital Equipment Corporation
          TEL (603) 884-5111

          International Business Machines Corporation
          TEL (800) 426-3333

          Hewlett Packard Company
          TEL (303) 229-3800

          COPIES OF THE CONFERENCE PROCEEDINGS

          Copies of the conference proceedings may be obtained by  contact-
          ing Mary Johnson at:

                    Johnson, Mary
                    Design and Manufacturing Institute
                    Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
                    110 Eighth Street
                    Building CII, Room 7015
                    Troy, NY  12180-3590
                    Tel:  (518)276-6754
                    Fax:  (518)276-2702
                    Email:  mjohnson@rdrc.rpi.edu

The OTIS Project presents...

       SYNERGY: Revolt 
	...the first in a continuing series of collaborative
	art initiatives designed to exploit the binarity
	of the infosphere.  This series of diversely 
	structured art-manipulation projects will attempt
	to stretch across network boundries encouraging
	use of electronic mail, fax, video, photography,
	scanned "conventional" art and even sound to 
	create multi-artist "still" visuals in GIF and 
	JPG formats.  Visualists from all technical levels
	are welcome.  

	REVOLT will be structured simply.  There will be 
	three stages of production.  The first stage will
	consist of all participants creating one still 
	work as a "starter" piece that two other partici-
	pants will, in turn, manipulate.  All first stage
	"base" images are due by Sunday, May 23rd, 1993, 
	midnight Central Daylight Time. 

	Stage two will begin on May 24th.  All images will 
	be sent to another (arbitrarily chosen) participant
	for them to do manipulations on in anyway they see 
	fit.  For purely digital artists, this may consist
	of filtering the image through their favorite paint
	program.  For "analog" artists, this may well be
	printing a hardcopy of the image and adding their
	own part with pen, pencil or white-out then scan-
	ning in the image again to be transferred on to 
	the third-stage artist.  All second-stage works
	are due by midnight on Sunday, May 30th.

	Stage three is the finishing stage and will begin
	on May 31st.  All artists will do what they think 
	it takes to finish up the image they've been given
	using whatever technique they see as worthy.  
	These images will be due on June 6th, midnight.

	All involved will participate in each stage of
	creation.

	-----------------------------------------------------------
	To join, send email/mail with the following info:

	Name:
	email address:
	mail address:
	scanner access?  (color/grey/none)
	printer access?  (laser/postscript/inkjet/color/dot)
	computer access? (mac/ibm-pc/sun/amiga/atari/NeXT/other)
	output format?	 (tiff/targa/gif/jpeg/pict/postscript/fax
		         /photocopy/pcx/windows bitmap)
	graphics level?  (8bit/16bit/24bit/?)
	ftp access?
	time limitations?

	Address the information to:

	email: mad-celt@cwis.unomaha.edu (Andrew Booth, project manager)
	       (include "REVOLT" in the subject line)
	mail:  The OTIS Project
	       SYNERGY: Revolt
	       PO BX 241113
	       Omaha, NE 68124-1113	

	---------------------------------------------------------	
	Remember, all STARTER images are due on Sunday, May 23rd. 
	Deposit them at either of these FTP sites:

	sunsite.unc.edu  (/pub/multimedia/pictures/OTIS/Incoming)
	or
	141.214.4.135  (projects/otis/incoming)
		OR
	...send uuencoded images to us via email...
		OR
	...send hardcopies to address above...
		OR
	...arrange FAX exchange.

	If you don't get your STARTER image in, you won't be
	able to participate until SYNERGY Phase II (in mid-June).
	---------------------------------------------------------

	We will do our best to accomodate/facilitate image exchange
	for the "technologically impaired".  If you don't have 
	access to a scanner, but need one, we'll try to help.
	If you need an image printed out and sent to you, let
	us know (send an SASE if you anticipate this).

	ADDITIONAL INFORMATION AVAILABLE ON THE FOLLOWING:
	- suggestions for use of "uncommon" mediums
	  (such as video stills, electronic imaging and sound)
	- FAX availability times
	- "copyright" considerations (appropriation)
	- image conversion
	- the OTIS Project in general

I think that's an insightful comment.   Especially when at the
same time we have people like Bill "Projector" Conner complaining
that we are posting parodies.

The alt.* hierarchie is created for 2 purposes:
1. For groups which do not fit under the comp.* or other 'official'
  hierarchies
2. For the fast creation of hot new newsgroups like alt.gulf.war

Because there is no voting process or any other control facilities,
sites are free to decide not to carry (some of) the alt groups.

Therefore, it is (I think) desirable to try to create comp.graphics.
{raytrace, rendering or whatever} and not an alt-group

                               CALL FOR PAPERS

   The Eighth International Symposium on Computer and Information Sciences

                                ISCIS VIII
                  November 3 - 5, 1993, Antalya, Turkey

                               Organized by

                                   EHEI
            Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Informatique, Paris, France

                                   METU
              Middle East Technical University, Ankara, Turkey

                            in cooperation with
                  IEEE Computer Society Turkey Chapter,
                            IEEE Turkey Section
                       and the following universities:
             Bogazici, Ege, Hacettepe, Istanbul Teknik, Yildiz.

                            ISCIS Advisory Board:
             E.Arkun, E.Gelenbe, U.Halici, E.Harmanci, K.Inan,
          Y.Karsligil, S.Kuru, N.Yalabik, U. Yarimagan, S.Yilmaz

 Conference Chair        Program Co-Chairs           Publicity Chair
 --------------------    ------------------------    ----------------------
 Erol Gelenbe,           L. Gun, IBM, USA            Ugur Halici, METU
 Duke University, USA    R. Onvural,IBM, USA         halici@vm.cc.metu.edu.tr
 erol@egr.duke.edu       P. Quinton,IRISA, France    halici@trmetu.bitnet

                            Program Committee
                            -----------------
V. Akman, Turkey, E. Alpaydin, Turkey, E. Arkun, Turkey, I. Aybay, Turkey,
S. Bilgen, Turkey, A. Dogac, Turkey, A. Dogramaci, Turkey, S. Fdida, France,
J.M. Fourneau, France, E. Gelenbe, USA,  G. Gonenc, Turkey, U. Halici, Turkey,
E. Harmanci, Turkey, K. Inan, Turkey, S. Jaehnischen,Germany, S. Kuru, Turkey,
M. Nivat, France, V. Paschos, France, N.Pekergin, France, J.F. Perrot, France,
M. Raynal,France, A. Stafylopatis, Greece, G. Stamon,France, G. Ucoluk, Turkey,
N. Yalabik, Turkey

                            Publicity Committee
                            -------------------
    Isik Aybay, Osman Basbugoglu, Semih Bilgen, Emin Germen, Mert Sungur

ISCIS VIII is the eighth of a series of meetings which have brought together
computer scientists and engineers from about twenty countries. This year's
conference will be held in the beautiful Mediterranean resort city of
Antalya, in a region rich in natural as well as historical sites.

           RESEARCH PAPERS ARE SOUGHT IN THE FOLLOWING AREAS:
           --------------------------------------------------
        Theory of Computer Science   -   Computer Architecture & Systems
           Artificial Intelligence   -   Neural Networks
     Graphics and Image Processing   -   Computational Mathematics
  Operations Research Applications   -   Databases
            Performance Evaluation   -   Software Engineering
                 Computer Networks   -   Parallelism

Paper Submission:  Full papers are limited to 8 pages and short
communications are limited  to 4 pages. Submit five camera ready copies
(one original and four copies) of the paper and an accompanying letter by
postal mail only, so as to arrive by  June 30, 1993 to:

            ISCIS VIII, Attn Drs Levent Gun and Raif Onvural,
   IBM E95/B 673, P.O. Box 12195, Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA

Selected papers from ISCIS VIII will be published in the journal Information
Sciences (Elsevier - North Holland).

Poster Submission: Submit five camera ready copies of 1 page extended
abstract with an accompanying letter by July 30, 1993 to the address given
above.

Information: For required writing format, further information and
announcements, contact:

My theory is that Koresh was seriously wounded in the initial gunbattle
and died on Day 9 of the siege.  On Day 11 of the siege he rose from the
dead and periodically appeared to his followers and the FBI over the
next 40 days.  Living with someone who's risen from the dead isn't easy,
as Timmy Baterman's father in *Pet*Sematary* could attest, so after 40
days they did what Baterman did--shot themselves and burned the place
to the ground.

Consistent with the facts, isn't it?  Did anyone actually *see* Koresh
between Day 9 and Day 11?

Someone from NASA posted that there were very significant mass margins
on the HST re-boost mission.  A while back i had asked why not carry
the EDO pallet up,  and the answer was the mass margins were tight enough, they weren't even carrying extra suits.

Where's wingo when you need him:-)

COme on.   Knock that S**T off.

YOu forget,  that during skylab,  they did  overnight mission planning
for the repair EVA's.   Also during theøÄ   
Intelsat Mission,   they did overnight  WETF simulations.
I somehow think they could train up a new  EVA in  8 months.

And as for building hardware,  anything can  be built if you want it
bad enough.

YOu forget,  the  BUS 1  is already built.  all they'd ahve to do
is soup it up, even test it  on a delta mission.

Don't get into this mode of  negativism.   besides,  at the rate
missions slip,   the Discovery won't launch on this mission until
March.  that's almost a year.

Ah,  but how much more expensive is the Second HST servicing mission.

YOu forget,  there is a bum FGS,  the Solar array electronics, are
getting hinky  and there is still 8 months until the servicing mission.

The time for the space walks are growing rapidly.  THis was orignally
planned out as 3 spacewalks,  now they are at 5 EVA's  with 3 reserve
walks.

If the SMT can avoid a second servicing mission that's $500 million
saved.  If the Weight savings,  means they  can sit on orbit  for 30 Days.
and  handle any contingency  problems,  that's quite a savings.

Of course,  there wasn't any need for the Saturn  V  after apollo too.

as for the problems with the aperture door,  I am sure they can
work out some way to handle  that.  Maybe a Plug  made from
Frozen ice.?   it'll keep out any contamination,
yet sublime away  after teh boost.

zyda@cs.nps.navy.mil (Michael Zyda) notes:

I had the same problem and called the people who handle the box; the
problem happened some time ago and was caught almost instantly.  All
registrations going to that address are now fixed.  See what trouble
you get into when you don't procrastinate, Mike?

And no, SIGGRAPH 93 has not skipped town -- we're preparing the best
SIGGRAPH conference yet!

I thought your nickname was "UnEnlightened"
-- 

I disagree.  It think the average joe is interested/curious about spaceflight
but sees it as an elitist activity.  Not one which he is ever going to
participate in.

Why is the general public going to be interested in the technical details
of long term space habitation?  I like the idea of the study, but it should
be released to other scientists and engineers who will be able to use it.
If you want a general public document, you'll need a more general publication.

As one working on Controlled Ecological Life Support Systems, engineering
the microworld isn't the problem.  The problem is understanding the basic
chemical, biological and medical factors to be able to engineer them
efficiently.  For example, the only way we know how to produce food is from
plants and animals.  Food synthesis is not very far advanced.  So we have
to orbit a farm.  Well that's obviously not very efficient, so we use 
technology to reduce the mass and grow plants hydroponically instead of 
using dirt.  This is where the engineering comes in.  But new technologies
bring new basic questions that we don't have the answers to.  Like, in 
dirt we can grow tomatoes and lettuce right beside each other, but in 
hydroponics it turns out that you can't do that.  The lettuce growth is 
stunted when it's grown in the same hydroponic solution as tomatoes.  So 
now you have to consider what other plants are going to have similar
interactions.  This means some basic applied scientific research.  And that's
what needs to be done with all technologies that have been developed so far.
We also need to find out how they interact together.  That's where we are now.

First you need to do the literature search.  There is a lot of information
out there.  Maybe we should just pick a specific area of long term habitation.
This could be useful, especially if we make it available on the net.  Then
we can look at methods of analyzing the technologies.

Unless there is an unbelievable outpouring of interest on this on the net,
I think we should develop a detailed data base of the literature search 
first.  Then if we accomplish that we can go on to real analysis.  The data
base itself could be useful for future engineers.

That's my response Ken, what do you think?

refrettably you are mistaken.  alt.drugs was used to recruit people for the
worldwide pot religion.  I, however hve no problem being in both of them

Jeremiah:
25:27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of
hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and
fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among
you.
25:28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to
drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye
shall certainly drink.

I don't know about C-5's,  but on C-130's  which are regularly used
for Medium  haul  Personnel transport by the Army,  only have a
funnel and a garden hose  in the aft.  The female personnel
hate long trips in the box cars.

You fall if it opens, too.

Gravity:  it's not just a good idea; it's the law.

[writing to someone else]

Can we get back to using the terms "strong Atheist" and "weak Atheist"
rather than this "hard Atheist" and "soft Atheist".  I can imagine 
future discussions with Newbies where there is confusion because of the
multiplication of descriptions.

[rest deleted]

es:

xv 3.0 (shareware) supports 24-bit displays, and has lots of other
improvements over earlier versions.  Definitely worth checking out
(also at export)

Jean.
-- 
Jean Liddle                                 
Computer Science, Illinois State University  
e-mail:  jliddle@ilstu.edu                  

acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu (Turin Turambar, ME Department of Utter Misery)
said re. Dan Schaertel's article [if I followed the quoting right]:

I think it may also be worthwhile pointing out that if we
take the appellation `Rabbi' seriously then Jesus had a full
grasp of contemporary `scripture'

Mat21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures...

Mat22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing
Mat22:29 the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Following from this, he would have been in a wonderful
position to fulfil prophesies, and the NT says as much:

Mat26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled,
Mat26:54 that thus it must be?

Mat26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the
Mat26:56 prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples
Mat26:56 forsook him, and fled.

If the books comprising the referred-to `scripture' had not
been accessible then it probably would be a different
matter.

I was at an Adobe seminar/conference/propaganda forum/whatever-you-want-to-
call-it a couple months ago where they announced that Display Postscript was
going to be included in the next release of Sun's OS, (presumably Solaris.)
Sun was going to drop their development of Newsprint, and, in return for this,
Adobe was going to port Illustrator and Photoshop to Sun.  Other than the
articles that appeared in the trade journals immediately after, I haven't
heard a peep about it.  I hope it's still in the works.

This is a very good point. I have already made the clear claim that
Khomeini advocates views which are in contradition with the Qur'an
and have given my arguments for this. This is something that can be
checked by anyone sufficiently interested. Khomeini, being dead,
really can't respond, but another poster who supports Khomeini has
responded with what is clearly obfuscationist sophistry. This should
be quite clear to atheists as they are less susceptible to religionist
modes of obfuscationism. 

So, to answer your question, the only way you can judge is by learning 
more about Islam, that is by reading the Qur'an and understanding it's 
basic principles. Once one has done this it is relatively easy to see 
who is following the principles of Islam and who is acting in a way at 
odds with Islam. Khomeini by attributing a superhuman status to twelve 
muslim historical leaders is at variance with one of basic principles 
of Islam, which is that no human being is metaphysically different than 
any other human being and in no sense any closer to God in metaphysical 
nature.

Indirect compared to what?  Did Voyager 2 traverse a substantially greater
distance than, say, a Hohmann orbit?  I've never heard Voyager's path
described as "indirect" before...  

STS 55     
1 22640U 93 27  A 93117.24999999  .00043819  00000-0  13174-3 0    47
2 22640  28.4694 264.3224 0004988 261.3916 194.3250 15.90699957   104

You can tell your friend from me that I was in a publisher's
warehouse one time and saw thousands of copies of The Joy of
Cooking and every one of them was syllable-perfect.

I have since sold all I own and become a follower of The Joy
of Cooking.  The incident I mentioned convinced me, once and
for all, that The Joy of Cooking is inspired by god and the
one true path to his glory.

: I heard about the arms sale to Saudi Arabia.  Now, how is it such a grave
: mistake to sell Saudi Arabia weapons?  Or are you claiming that we shouldn't
: sell any weapons to other countries?  Straightforward answer please.

Saudi Arabia is an oppressive regime that has been recently interfering
in the politcs of newly renunified Yemen, including assasinations and 
border incursions. It is entirely possible that they will soon invade.
Unluckily for Yemen it is not popular in the West as they managed to put
aside political differences during reunification and thus the West has
effectively lost one half (North?) as a client state.

"Isaac Asimov read creationist books.  He read the Bible.  He had ample
opportunity to kneel before his Creator and Savior.  He refused.  In
fact, he sent out a strong promotional letter urging support of the
American Humanist Association, shortly before he died."

   --excerpt from Ken Ham, "Asimov Meets His Creator," _Back to Genesis_
     No. 42, June 1992, p. c (included in _Acts & Facts_ vol. 21, no. 6,
     June 1992, from the Institute for Creation Research).  This is one
     of the most offensive articles they've ever published--but at least
     it argues *against* a deathbed conversion.  There's a part of the
     article even worse than what I've just quoted, in which an excerpt
     from a reader's letter says that if Asimov is burning in hell now,
     "then he certainly has had a 180-degree change in his former beliefs
     about creation and the Creator."  (A post-deathbed conversion.)

Not true. Only an observer at rest at infinite distance from the black hole
will see the particle take infinite time to reach the horizon. In the
particle's own reference frame, it takes a very finite time to reach the
horizon and the singularity. The math does indeed predict this. Take a look
at Mitchner, Thorne, and Wheeler's _Gravitation_.

Peter Walker

You should wear your nicest boxer shorts and bring plenty of SPF 45+ 
sunscreen.  I'll grab my bathing suit, towerl and some veggie hotdogs and we 
can have bonfire cookout!!
Does that sound good enough to you, Dean?
EVERY a.a poster is invited!!!

Another factor against bringing the HST back to Earth is risk of contamination.

   Wow, look at alllthe pretty puddles!!!!

  Jimmy crack koan, and I don't care, Jimmy crack koan and i don't care, Jimmy
crack Koan and i don't care, Zen Master's gone away.....

Sorry about the delay in responding, due to conference paper deadline panic.

[Alarming amounts of agreement deleted :-)]

That ("complicated") isn't in fact where P(H) > P(HG) comes from; it's more
the other way around. It's from

  P(H)  =  P(HG) +  P(HG')  where G' is the complement of G

and by axiom, P(anything) >= 0, so P(HG') >= 0, so P(H) >= P(HG).

In a sense, HG is necessarily more "complicated" than H for any H and G,
so I may be splitting hairs, but what I'm trying to say is that irrespective
of subjective impressions of how complicated something is, P(H) >= P(HG)
holds, with equality if and only if P(HG') = 0.

Well, "P(x | A) = P(x | B)" means that x is as likely to be observed if A is
operative as it is if B is operative. This implies that observing x does not
provide any useful information which might allow us to discriminate between
the respective possibilities that A and B are operative; the difference
reduces to the difference between the (unknown and unhelpful) prior
probabilities P(A) and P(B):

  P(x | A) = P(x | B)  ==>

    P(A | x)  =  k P(A),   and   P(B | x)  =  k P(B)

where k  =  P(x | A) / P(x)  =  P(x | B) / P(x).

So A and B are "equally consistent with the data" in that observing x
doesn't give any pointers as to which of A or B is operative.

In the particular case where A = H and B = HG, however, we know that their
prior probabilities are ordered by P(H) >= P(HG), although we don't know
the actual values, and it's this which allows us to deploy the Razor to
throw out any such HG.

That's certainly true, but the particular point here was whether or
not a `divine component' actually underlies the prevalence of religion
in addition to the memetic transmission component, which even the religious
implicitly acknowledge to be operative when they talk of `spreading the word'.

Now it seems to me, as I've said, that the observed variance in religious
belief is well accounted for by the memetic transmission model, but rather
*less* well if one proposes a `divine component' in addition, since I would
expect the latter to conspire *against* wide variance and even mutual
exclusion among beliefs. Thus my *personal* feeling is that P(x | HG) isn't
even equal to P(x | H) in this case, but is smaller (H is memetic transmission,
G is `divine component', x is the variance among beliefs). But I happily
acknowledge that this is a subjective impression.

Not that I'm a statistician as such either, but:

The idea is that both theism and atheism are compatible with all of
the (read `my') observations to date. However, theism (of the type with
which I am concerned) *also* suggests that, for instance, prayer may be
answered, people may be miraculously healed (both are in principle amenable
to statistical verification) and that god/s may generally intervene in
measurable ways.

This means that these regions of the space of possible observations, 
which I loosely termed "appearances of god/s", have some nonzero
probability under the theistic hypothesis and zero under the atheistic.

Since there is only so much probability available for each hypothesis to
scatter around over the observation space, the probability which theism
expends on making "appearances of god/s" possible must come from somewhere
else (i.e. other possible observations).

All else being equal, this means that an observation which *isn't* an
"appearance of god/s" must have a slightly higher probability under
atheism than under theism. The Bayesian stuff implies that such
observations must cause my running estimate for the probability of
the atheistic hypothesis to increase, with a corresponding decrease
in my running estimate for the probability of the theistic hypothesis.

Sorry if that's still a bit jargonesque, but it's rather difficult to
put it any other way, since it does depend intimately on the properties
of conditional probability densities, and particularly that the total
area under them is always unity.

An analogy may (or may not :-) be helpful. Say that hypothesis A is "the
coin is fair", and that B is "the coin is unfair (two-headed)". (I've
used A and B to avoid confusion with H[heads] and T[tails].)

Then

  P(H | A) = 0.5  }  total 1
  P(T | A) = 0.5  }

  P(H | B) = 1    }  total 1
  P(T | B) = 0    }

The observations are a string of heads, with no tails. This is compatible
with both a fair coin (A) and a two-headed coin (B). However, the probability
expended by A on making possible the appearance of tails (even though they
don't actually appear) must come from somewhere else, since the total must
be unity, and it comes in this case from the probability of the appearance
of heads.

Say our running estimates at time n-1 are e[n-1](A) and e[n-1](B). The
observation x[n] at time n is another head, x[n] = H. The estimates are
modified according to

                            P(H | A)
  e[n](A)   =   e[n-1](A) * --------   =   e[n-1](A) * m
                              P(H)

and

                            P(H | B)
  e[n](B)   =   e[n-1](B) * --------   =   e[n-1](B) * 2m
                              P(H)

Now we don't know P(H), the *actual* prior probability of a head, but
the multiplier for e(A) is half that for e(B). This is true every time
the coin is tossed and a head is observed.

Thus whatever the initial values of the estimates, after n heads, we have

                 n
  e[n](A)   =   m  e[0](A)

and
                    n
  e[n](B)   =   (2m)  e[0](B),

and since e[k](A) + e[k](B) = 1 at any time k, you can show that 0.5 < m < 1
and thus 1 < 2m < 2. Hence the estimate for the fair-coin hypothesis A must
decrease at each trial and that for the two-headed coin hypothesis B must
increase, even though both hypotheses are compatible with a string of heads.

The loose analogy is between "unfair coin" and atheism, and between "fair
coin" and theism, with observations consistent with both. A tail, which
would falsify "unfair coin", is analogous to an "appearance of god/s",
which would falsify atheism. I am *not* claiming that the analogy extends
to the numerical values of the various probabilities, just that the principle
is the same.

Quite so, but this type of theism is what I might call "the G in the HG",
in terms of our Ockham's Razor discussion, and I'd bin it on those grounds.

The hypotheses don't have to be falsifiable, and indeed in my `model',
the theism isn't falsifiable.

You don't have to. We don't need, in the above analogy, to know *any*
prior probabilities to deduce that the updating multiplier for the
fair-coin hypothesis is less than unity, and that the corresponding
multiplier for the two-headed coin hypothesis is greater than unity.
You don't need to know the initial values of the running estimates
either. It's clear that after a large number of observations, P(fair-coin)
approaches zero and P(two-headed-coin) approaches unity.

All you need to know is whether P(x | Ha) is larger than P(x | Ht) for
observed x, and this follows from the assumptions that there are certain
events rendered *possible* (not necessary) under Ht which are not possible
under Ha, and all else is equal.

Any observations you like; it really doesn't matter, nor affect the
reasoning, provided that there are some possible observations which
would count as "appearances of god/s". Examples of this might be
a demonstration of the efficacy of prayer, or of the veracity of
revelation.

OK, we'll downgrade "*does* interact" to "*may* interact", which would
actually be better since "does interact" implies a falsifiability which
we both agree is misplaced.

I'll explain, but bear in mind that this isn't central; all I require of
a theism is that it *not* make the prediction "Appearances of god/s will
never happen", as does atheism. (Before somebody points out that quantum
mechanics doesn't make this prediction either, the difference is that
QM and atheism do not form a partition.)

Predictions include such statements as "Prayer is efficacious" (implying
"If you do the stats, you will find that Prayer is efficacious"), or "Prayer
is *not* efficacious", or "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not
pass, till all these things be fulfilled." I don't think we have any problems
of misunderstanding here.

That's fine; I don't claim that theism is false, merely that the [finite
number of] observations available to me so far suggest that it is, and
that as I continue to observe, the suggestion looks better and better.

I think you are; an "appearance of god/s" is sufficient to falsify
atheism, whereas in general the corresponding theism is unfalsifiable.

No: by way of a counterexample, let X = "the coin is fair", or more
accurately (so that not(X) makes sense) "the two sides of the coin are
different". This is unfalsifiable by tossing the coin; even a string of
heads is consistent with a fair coin, and you have to go to an infinite
number of tosses to falsify X in the limit. Its converse is falsifiable,
and is falsified when at least one head and at least one tail have appeared.

Oops. Sorry. Mea culpa.

We agree here.

"The Rapture will not happen on October 28 1992." Said Rapture would have
falsified atheism to my satisfaction had it happened, although its failure
to happen does not, of course, falsify any theisms other than those which
specifically predicted it.

"No phenomenon which requires the existence of one or more gods for its
explanation will ever be observed." That about sums the whole thing up.

Cheers

Simon

I am having trouble viewing GIF files on my system.  Large sections
don't show up.  I have tried VPIC and PICEM - both do the same.  I am
running a Gateway 486/33C with a Speedstar Plus VGA card and an
NEC Multisync 4Ds 16 inch monitor.  Any suggestions?  I don't know if 
Robert Woodward
Department of Physiology, University of Missouri, Columbia, MO  65212
e-mail:  c557652@mizzou1.missouri.edu

[..]

Possibly the parallel just stems from your tending to use bad sources...
Anyway, don't you think that similarity is rather shallow?  You're only
looking at the surface, at the way of argumentation.  
And now you should perhaps go a little deeper and try to find the difference,
for example, find out whether you can find real science done by Hitching.
If you can't, will you then admit that your attempt at quoting an authority
has backfired?

   ...  So how about this?  Give the winning group
   (I can't see one company or corp doing it) a 10, 20, or 50 year
   moratorium on taxes.

You are talking about the bozos who can't even manage in November to
keep promises about taxes made in October, and you expect them to make
(and keep!) a 50-year promise like that?  Your faith in the political
system is much higher than mine.  I wouldn't even begin to expect that
in Australia, and we don't have institutionalised corruption like you
do.

Hi, I 've a series of images in sun raster formats. I've converted them
to PCX formats (I can do the conversion to others like gif as well). I
would like to know of any software that is able to do animation for
these formats, and to record the animation onto a video tape.

Thank you.

+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+

Hi.  I'm looking for a 3D shark for use in a ray tracing rountine I'm doing.
 I'll be using Vivid or POV, but it can be in any format.  Are there any
 FTP sites with 3D objects or does anyone have a good 3D shark?

Chad

I was at avalon today and found texture maps in some "tex" and "txc"
format, something I've never encountered before.  These are obviously
not tex or  LaTeX files.

IF you have a clue how I can convert these to something
reasonable, please let me know.

Maybe. I've had an Epson portable with backlit LCD since 1988 which is
still used daily and the screen on that is fine. The only problem it
has (and ever has had) is the "arm" of the screen is sorta lose and if
you bend it fairly harshly the screen goes off until you wiggle it
round a bit. But other than that, it's been perfect! So what's that,
about um, 60 months???!

Well, the best thing to do is to read the book "Parallel Universes"
by Dr. Fred Wolf. 

In essence, Dr. Wolf says that one interpretation of the sub-atomic
particle/wave duality is that what we perceive as a wave is actually
an infinate number of parallel universes overlaid, and in each of
these universes there is a particle in a different location. When we
do something to make a particle "appear," we are actually causing
all the parallel universes to collapse into one. Apparently this is
one line of thought on the nature of QM, that is going through some
of the scientific community.

Dr. Wolf (and many others) claim that somehow the collapse is caused
by the mental effort of observing the particle. This implys that
mind is more than merely a biological phenomenon. He then extrapolates
that if mind is an integral part of the universe, then perhaps consciousness
is the element that gives order and form to the universe(s) it/themself(s).

It all gets rather interesting, but what I find facinating is that
this would explain the phenomenon of "magick" as practiced in my
religion. Dr. Wolf speculates that the ordering functionality of mind
could be caused by the selection of a future from an infinite number of
possible futures; he says that this might be done by some sort of
communication between ones current, and possible future selves. 
I have long speculated that if magick is not merely a form of self
delusion then perhaps it could be caused by some sort of a selection
of one of many possible futures.

I realize that this gets pretty bizarre, but it never hurts to keep 
an open mind and at least file it all away as another possibile 
explaination of the world in which we find ourselves. After all, the
more we learn about the universe in which we live, the more we learn
that it is truly a very strange place.

If you read the last couple of books in the series closely (well, #3 and #4
at least), there are at least two points at which the real Question is
implied.  Conversations proceed much like:

Zaphod: What *is* the ultimate Question, I wonder?
Arthur (not paying much attention to Zaphod, but needing a random seed for
  the Infinite Improbability Drive): Think of a number, any number.

Actually, it may be Marvin who uses this phrase a few times as well, and
everytime it's arranged such that "Think of a number, any number" could be
an answer to someone's question about the Question.

I kind of like it.  Very mystifying.  It's not even "pick a number" or
"tell me a number", just "think of one".

: I have a question about SVGA cards.  I have a Tseng 4000 SVGA with 1MB
: memory and 3x 6-bit DACs as far as I know.  To display a 640x480x32768, 
: Now:  Can I display 640x480, 15bit/pixel bit-maps on this card?

You can. At the least, your _hardware_ is capable of supporting this mode.
I do know nothing about your video BIOS, though...

: If so, how?

Silly (but fool-proof ;) way: Install Windows with 640x480x32K colors
wideo driver and display your pictures under windows...

Cheese,

Vell, this is perfectly normal behaviour Vor a Vogon, you know?

(Anthony 

If she doesn't welcome the excruciating pain of labor, the
selfish bitch deserves to die in childbirth.  She was probably
lying about the rape anyway.

jfc> If gamma ray bursters are extragalactic, would absorption from the
jfc> galaxy be expected?  How transparent is the galactic core to gamma
jfc> rays?

and later...

JB> So, if the 1/r^2 law is incorrect (assume
JB> some unknown material [dark matter??] inhibits Gamma Ray propagation),
JB> could it be possible that we are actually seeing much less energetic
JB> events happening much closer to us?  The even distribution could
JB> be caused by the characteristic propagation distance of gamma rays 
JB> being shorter then 1/2 the thickness of the disk of the galaxy.

 0.

 Well, maybe not zero, but very little.  At the typical energies for 
 gamma rays, the Galaxy is effectively transparent. 

 Hans Bloemen had a review article in Ann. Rev. Astr. Astrophys. a few 
 years back in which he discusses this in more depth.

I know that alot of how people think and act in a long distance space project
would be much like old tiem explorers, sailors, hunters and such who spent alot
of time alone, isolated, and alone or in minimal surroundings and sopcial
contacts.. Such as the old arctic and antarctic expeditions and such..

I vote for a later on sci.space.medicine or similar newsgroup fro the
discussion of long term missions into space and there affects on humans and
such..

What is NASA's annual budget?
This year will do, a few years back wpuld be nice too
but I need this item fast so emails off the top of your head very
much appreciated (FAQs vanish here!).

I'm working on my senior project here at UF (florida). The project requires fractel trees. I'm interested in either psuedo or real code; just about anything will help.

Perhaps some good books on the subject could help too.

	mail will reach at: quartz@iriquois.eel.ufl.edu

I don't know.  Does anyone in NASA land know how much fuel is
budgeted for the altitude change?

Henry,  any figures on the mass  (full)  for the EDO pallet  plus
it's dry weight?  How about for the dry mass of Bus-1?  it was
being de-classified as i checked last.

Also, I need.

1)  current orbital parameters of HST 

2)  projected  orbital parameters after re-boost.

3)  Discovery's  DRY weight

4) HST's Dry weight.

So how long do they need to train?  a year?  2 years?  somehow
I think 2-3 moths should be adequate.

Also because they significantly lacked on-orbit EVA experience.  
The HST is designed for on-orbit servicing.  it should be a lot easier.

There comes a time in every project, to kill the management.

They can if neccessary, re-schedule the  HST mission.  December is
not a drop dead date, unlike say the LDEF retrieval mission.  

I suspect, the BUS-1, may not have enough basic thrust for the HST
re-boost.  it mayu need bigger tanks,  or bigger thrusters.

My understanding is the Second HST servicing mission is not
a contingency.  My understanding is the mission  needs both
a new FOC  and work on the electrical system,  plus
another re-boost.   

Somehow, i think the cost of an expendable SMT will be less then
$500 million.

and the extra stuff is real cheap.  NASA has lots of suits,  MMU's,
and the EDO pallets are re-usable.  Oh, one double magnum of champagne,
now there's a couple hundred bucks.

That door has cycled, X times already.  Once after massive G loading.
I somehow think they can work ou;reliability  methods to ensure the
door works.

Also,  please tell me how some sort of sublimated  material  like
CO2, or H2O  would manage to contaminate the mirror,  anything
that goes to vapor state, shouldn't adhere to the mirror.

somehow, the door,  problem can be worked.  maybe they can put a one
time spring on it.

what do they do now, if the door hangs up.  that door is part
of a intrument safing mechanism.  if it hangs up tomorrow,  it'll
be 8 months until someone gets up there witha crowbar to fix it.

I'm looking for algorithms or articles on virtual sound. What i want to do is
the following;

From a fast source, eg. a CDROM, several sound sources are read, each having
it's own defined position and other attributes, eg. direction etc.  Given the
listeners position and direction, the sum of sound played back in each of the
listeners earphones will be a function of this position and direction.  This
means that some simulation of the ears coloring of sound relative to it's
incoming direction have to be done for each sound source.  (I think this is
possible to do with a lookup table of impulse responses for several angles
relative to each ear, and interpolate an impulse function from this for a given
angle.  This impulse function could then be convoluted with the sound from the
source.  This impulse function must be changed every time some sound source
changes position or the listener changes orientation.)  Additionally some
reflection, diffusion and absorbtion due to the environment wich is defined
could be simulated, but this requires some sort of sound propagandation
simulation, kinda like some radiosity algorithm.  

Have someone done this and/or written articles on implementing such a system? 

Please post or mail any answers or comments.

-- 

It's been suggested.  (Specifically, lightning strikes between clouds
in the interstellar medium.)

Last-modified: 20 April 1993
Version: 1.3

                                   Overview

titles:

                                   Credits

PHIMANEN@cc.helsinki.fi (Pekka Himanen)

   problem.

3. If you have anonymous FTP access, connect to rtfm.mit.edu [18.70.0.226].

No.  I also understand it. I have read the Bible from cover to cover, examining
each book within, cross-comparing them, etc.  And I have come to same conclusions
as Robert Weiss.

The OED gives the etymology of "sibyl" as coming from the ancient Greek 

	sigma iota beta upsilon lambda lambda alpha 
	( S i b ih l l a )

which is claimed to come from the Doric 

	sigma iota omicron beta upsilon lambda lambda alpha 
	( s i o b ih l l a )

which (if I read it properly) in turn came from the Attican (Athenian)

	theta epsilon omicron beta omicron upsilon lambda eta 
	( th eh o b o ih l ae )

I don't know much about Attis, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that
this God was tied to the Athenian capital

	Alpha tau tau iota kappa upsilon sigma
	(a t t i k u s)

ra>   Robert, you keep making references to "orthodox" belief, and saying
ra> things like "it is held that..." (cf. "Kermit" thread).  On what
ra> exact body of theology are you drawing for what you call "orthodox?"

     "Orthodox" is a compound word. It comes from 'orthos' (straight, true, 
     right) and from 'doxa' (opinion, doctrine, teaching). I use orthodox to 
     refer to 'right teaching.' Right teaching is derived from letting God 
     speak to us through the Bible. This can be from reading simple truths 
     in the Scriptures and by using the Bible to interpret the Bible.

ra> Who is that "holds that" Luke meant what you said he meant?

     I think that it is apparent from reading the Scriptures that are
     pertinent.

     Luke 23:43 records Christ's promise to the repentant thief who hung on
     an adjacent cross: "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in
     paradise." But was it not until later that Christ rose from the dead
     and ascended to heaven? If Christ Himself was not in heaven until
     Sunday, how could the repentant thief have been there with Him? The
     answer lies in the location of "paradise" when Jesus died.

     Apparently paradise was not exalted to heaven until Easter Day.

     Jesus refers to it in the middle of the story of the rich man and 
     Lazarus as "Abraham's Bosom," to which the godly beggar Lazarus was
     carried by the angels after his decease (Luke 16:19-31).  Thus
     "Abraham's Bosom" referred to the place where the souls of the redeemed
     waited till the day of Christ's Resurrection.

     It was not yet lifted to heaven but it may well have been a section of 
     hades (Hebrew: Sheol), reserved for believers who had died in the faith
     but would not be admitted into the glorious presence of God in heaven
     until the price of redemption had actually been paid on Calvary; or
     even that none would precede the presence of Jesus back to glory with
     the Father.

     Doubtless it was the infernal paradise that the souls of Jesus and the
     repentant thief repaired after they each died on Friday afternoon. But
     on Sunday, after the risen Christ had first appeared to Mary Magdalene
     (John 20:17) and her two companions (Matthew 28:9), presumably He then
     took up with Him to glory all the inhabitants of infernal paradise
     (including Abraham, Lazarus, and the repentant thief). We read in
     Ephesians 4:8 concerning Christ: "Ascending on high, He led captivity
     captive; He gave gifts unto men." Verse 9 continues: "But what does `He
     ascended' mean but that He also descended to the lowest parts of the
     earth?" -i.e., to hades. Verse 10 adds: "He who descended is the same
     as He who ascended above all the heavens." Presumably He led the whole
     band of liberated captives from hades (i.e., the whole population of
     preresurrection paradise) up to the glory of heaven.

ra> Whenever your personal interpretation of Biblical passages is
ra> challenged, your only response seems to be that one needs merely to
ra> "look at the Bible" in order to see the truth, but what of those who
ra> see Biblical things differently from you?

     I think that this characterization is faulty. Whenever my 'personal 
     interpretation' is questioned, I usually give a reason.

     As for those that see things differently, please, put forward where
     there is a valid difference, and we can discuss it. 

     I seem to be seeing from you the notion that any difference in how one 
     views the Bible is somehow legitimate, except, or course, for the stuff 
     that I glean from it. Put forward a contrary view and perhaps we can 
     have a discussion on that topic. But to decry something that I put 
     forward, without putting forward something else to discuss, and to 
     dismiss what I put forward while giving credence to other alleged views
     that have yet to be put forward is simply being contentious.

ra> Are we to simply assume that you are the only one who really
ra> understands it?

     If you believe that something that I have drawn from Scripture is 
     wrong, then please, show me from Scripture where it is wrong.  Simply 
     stating that there are other views is not a proof. Show it to me from 
     Scripture and then we can go on.

Article 31 of alt.graphics:
Newsgroups: alt.graphics
Path: news.nd.edu!moliere!rmalayte
From: rmalayte@moliere.helios.nd.edu (ryan malayter)
Subject: GeoSphere images via ftp?
Message-ID: <1993Apr26.213648.26856@news.nd.edu>
Sender: news@news.nd.edu (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 21:36:48 GMT

Does anyone know if a digitized version of the GeoSphere image is
available via ftp?  For those of you who don't know, it is a composite
photograph of the entire earth, with cloudcover removed.  I just think
it's really cool.  It was created with government funds and sattelites
as a research project, so I would assume it's in the public domain.

	Ryan

On a more cheerful note, perhaps hackerism/hacking isn't completely dead.

As someone else said, take the GNU offerings for example - free, redistributable and 
often better than the commercial stuff.  Take also the number of papers published
every year in all the fields of computer science - the vast majority of these papers
detail original work of real, often exceptional merit - and the authors are sharing
this knowledge.

Well pat for once I agree with you and I like your first idea that you had.
IT probably is the gamma ray signature of the warp transitions of interstellar
spacecraft! :)

Well it makes as much sense as some things. I was at the first Gamma Ray
Burst conference here at UAH and had great fun watching the discomfiture
of many of the Gamma Ray scientists. Much scruitiny was given to the
data reductions. I remember one person in particular who passionately declared
that the data was completely wrong as there were no explanation for the
phenomena of the smooth sky distribution. (heck it even shoots down the
warp transition theory :(. The next conference is soon and I will endeavour
to keep in touch with this fun subject.

Meng,

I have a better prayer:

Dear God,

     Please save the world from the likes of these!!!

I'm asking for help on a sticky problem involving unreasonably low
apparent precision in Z-buffering, that I've encountered in 2 different
PEX implementations.  I can't find any discussion of this problem in any
resources I can lay hands on (e.g. the comp.windows.x.pex FAQ, Gaskins's
_PEXlib_Programming_Manual_, vendors' documentation).

I'm posting this article by itself on comp.graphics, and virtually the
same article with a test program demonstrating the problem on
comp.windows.x.pex.  The problem is hard to describe without pictures,
hence this article is longish.  If you can run PEXlib 5.x programs and
are interested, I encourage you to build and run the test program in
comp.windows.x.pex to see the effect yourself and play with my approach
to dealing with it.  (It depends on the utility code from the above
Gaskins book; instructions for fetching it via anonymous FTP are given.)

The problem to be solved is to eliminate or minimize "stitching"
artifacts resulting from the use of Z-buffering with polylines that are
coplanar with filled areas.  The interpolated Z values along a line will
differ slightly, due to roundoff error, from the interpolated Z values
across an area, even when the endpoints of the line are coincident with
vertices of the area.  Because of this, it's a tossup whether the
Z-buffer will allow the line pixels or the area pixels to be displayed.
Visually, the result tends to be a dashed-line effect even though the
line is supposed to be solid.

Using the PEXlib API, my approach to a solution is to use two slightly
different PEX view mapping transforms, in two view table entries, one
for the areas and one for the lines.  The PEX structures or immediate-
mode output must be organized so that one view table index is always in
effect for areas, and the other is always in effect for lines.  The
result is a slight shift in NPC Z coordinates for the lines, so as to
attempt to bias the tossup situations in favor of the lines.

This shift is effected by moving the front and back clipping planes used
in the PEXlib view table entry for lines just a hair "backwards" (i.e.
smaller VRC Z coordinates), compared to their positions in the view
table entry used for areas.  This means that when a point is transformed
to NPC, its Z value will be slightly bigger if it comes from a line than
if it comes from an area, thus accomplishing the desired bias.

I would expect the Z roundoff errors which cause the problem to amount
to a few units at most, out of the entire dynamic range of the Z-buffer,
typically from 0 to 65535 if not 16777215 (i.e. 16 or 24 bit Z-buffers).
Therefore, it seems that a tiny fraction of the range of Z in VRC
between the front and back clip planes ought to suffice to reliably fix
the stitching.

But in fact, experience shows that the shift has to be as much as 0.003
to 0.006 of the range.  (Empirically, it's worst when the NPC Z
component of the slope of the surface is high, i.e. when it appears more
or less edge-on to the viewer.)  It's as if only 8 or 9 bits of the
Z-buffer have any dependable meaning!  This amount is so great that one
problem is replaced by another: sometimes the polylines "show through"
areas which they are supposed to lie behind.

I've observed the problem on both Hewlett-Packard and Digital
workstation PEX servers, to approximately the same degree.  The test
program demonstrates the problem on an MIT PEXlib 5.x implementation;
this version is known to compile and run on an HP-UX system with PEX
5.1.

Open questions:
    (1) Why does this happen?
        --  Am I configuring the PEX view table wrongly?
        --  Is there a systematic difference in Z interpolation for lines
            as opposed to areas (e.g. pixel centers versus corners) which
            could be corrected for?
        --  Are PEX implementors wantonly discarding Z precision in their
            interpolators?
        --  Something else?
    (2) What to do about it?
        --  Can I fix my use of the view table to allow better precision
            in Z-buffered HLHSR?
        --  Is there another approach I can take to remove the stitching
            artifacts?
        --  Am I just out of luck?

Any help would be immensely appreciated!

   > >  What  evidence  indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away?

   > >Given the enormous  power,  i was just wondering,  what if they are
   > >quantum  black holes or something  like that  fairly close by?

   > >Why would they have to be at  galactic ranges?   

   . . . David gives good explaination of the deductions from the isotropic,
   'edged' distribution, to whit, they are either part of the Universe or
   part of the Oort cloud.

   Why couldn't they be Earth centred, with the edge occuring at the edge
   of the gravisphere? I know there isn't any mechanism for them, but there
   isn't a mechanism for the others either.

What on Earth is the "gravisphere"?
Anyway, before it's decay the Pioneer Venus Orbiter
had a gamma ray detector, as does Ulysses, they 
detect the brightest bursts that the Earth orbit detectors
do, so the bursts are at least at Oort cloud distances.
In principle four detectors spaced out by a few AU would
see parallax if the bursts are of solar system origin.

_The_ problem with Oort cloud sources is that absolutely
no plausible mechanism has been proposed. It would have
to involve new physics as far as I can tell. Closest to
"conventional" Oort sources is a model of B-field pinching
by comets, it's got too many holes in it to count, but at
least it was a good try...

Bogus. I just said that theism is not the only factor for fanatism.
The point is that theism is *a* factor.
 
That's a claim you have to support. Please note that especially in the
field of theism, the leaders believe what they say.
 
That's a straw man. And as usually in discussions with you one has to
repeat it: Read what I have written above: not every theism leads to
fanatism, and not all fanatism is caused by theism. The point is,
there is a correlation, and it comes from innate features of theism.
 
Gullibility, by the way, is one of them.
 
And to say that I am going to forbid religion is another of your straw
men. Interesting that you have nothing better to offer.
 
That's bogus. Self reference is not circular. And since the evaluation of
usefulness is possible within rational systems, it is allowed.
 
Your argument is as silly as proving mathematical statements needs mathematics
and mathematics are therfore circular.
 
I've been speaking of religious systems with contradictory definitions
of god here.
 
An axiomatic datum lends itself to rational analysis, what you say here
is a an often refuted fallacy. Have a look at the discussion of the
axiom of choice. And further, one can evaluate axioms in larger systems
out of which they are usually derived. "I exist" is derived, if you want
it that way.
 
Further, one can test the consistency and so on of a set of axioms.
 
what is it you are trying to say?
 
Using the traditonal definition of gods. Personal, supernatural entities
with objective effects on this world. Usually connected to morals and/or
the way the world works.
 
Person A believes system B becuase it sounds so nice. That does not make
B true, it is at best a work hypothesis. However, the content of B is that
it is true AND that it is more than a work hypothesis. Testing or evaluating
evidence for or against it  therefore dismissed because B (already believed)
says it is wronG/ a waste  of time/ not possible. Depending on the further
contents of B Amalekites/Idolaters/Protestants are to be killed, this can
have interesting effects.

I'd be willing to bet that a majority of the cost difference could be
accounted for by the AF's requirement for superfluous 2167 documentation, 5
or 6 huge requirements and design reviews, travel expenses flying personnel
around to meetings, and over specifying the hardware. I doubt that the
actual fabrication cost in materials and labor would be very different from
SDIO's costs.

Robert McElwaine is the authoritative source of scientific data on Internet.
He can be reached alt.fan.mc-elwaine...

Spiros

they weren't even carrying extra suits.

So how much mass is saved by not burning the OMS?  That's the critical question.
My data shows that the OMS engines hold 10,900 kg of propellant.  Of that, a 
substantial fraction is going to be used for the first OMS burn, the reentry
burn and the reserve.  So Pat, tell us how much fuel the altitude change is
going to take, and how much the EDO pallet, BUS-1 and extra parts are going
mass.  If you can make the numbers work out, _then_ I'll be interested.  After
you show us that it can be done, then tell us how much the EDO pallet, BUS-1
and extra equipment is going to cost.  

First, while astronauts certainly have done EVAs with minimal planning, that was
because they _had_ to.  They don't like to do that as a general rule.

Second, remember why they had to improvise during Intelsat 6?  They were trying
to attach a motor to a piece of hardware that wasn't designed to do that.  
Trying to shortcut the training is only going to make a repeat more likely.

Third, they don't have eight months.  They have however much time is left 
after someone comes up with a plan, shows it can work and gets it approved.
You may think I have a pessimistic attitude.  I think it's realistic.  I'm not
saying that the engineering task is impossible (few engineering tasks are).  
What I'm saying is that this is neither cost effective nor feasible under NASA
management.

"All they have to do is soup it up?"  Just what does that mean?  

The second servicing mission is a contingency.  You have neither shown that it
would be necessary without your plan nor that it would be unnecessary with your
plan.  

No, Pat, I haven't forgotten.

No Pat.  That's $500 million minus the cost of the new hardware, minus the cost
of the extra struff you want to bring along, minus development and mangement 
costs, minus extra operating costs.  TANSTAAFL.

I'm sure that if you reread this you'll see that your argument is falacious.

Pat, not only is this messy and less reliable than a device that's _made_ to 
perform this task, it also ignores the point.  There is a desire to have 
astronauts available so that if the door fails to open, something can be done
about it.  Unless you can provide a very reliable way of reopening the door,
you haven't solved the problem.

Well, I seem to have struck an  interesting discussion off.  Given that I
am not an astrophysicist  or nuclear physicist,  i'll have to boil it
down a bit.

1)  ALl the data on bursts to date,  shows a smooth random distribution.

2)  that means they aren't concentrated in  galactic cores, our or someone
elses.

3) If the distribution is smooth,  we are either seeing some  ENORMOUSLY
large phenomena  scattered at the edge of the universe  said phenomena
being subject to debate almost as vioent as the phenomena
	OR
we are seeing some phenomena  out at like the Oort cloud,  but then it needs
some potent little energy source,  that isn't detectable  by any other
current methods.

4)  we know it's not real close,  like  slightly extra solar,  because
we have no parallax measurements on the bursts.

5)  the bursts seem to bright to be something like black hole quanta or
super string  impacts or something like that.

So everyone is watching the data and arguing like mad in the meanwhile.

what i am wondering,  is this in people's opinion,  A NEW Physics problem.

Einstein got well known for solvingthe photoelectric effect.   

Copernicus,  started looking at  irregularities in planetary motion.

Is this a big enough problem, to create a new area of physics?
just a little speculative thinking folks.

Hi.  I'm  looking for information on how to directly manipulate
 video memory.  I have an application that I would like to use this for,
 because it is much faster than going through the BIOS.  I know that
 video memory ispart of the system area above the first 640K, so I guess
 I am looking to find out exactly what section of memory it is, and how it
 is layed out.     Thanks.

Everything we need to know about the seven seals is already
in the bible.  There is no "knowledge" of the seals that
Koresh could have.

Unless the FBI were to kill all publishers of the bible, it
would seem the story of the seven seals would be bound to
leak out.

   Could someone explain where these names come from?   I'm sure there's a 
   perfectly good reason to name a planetoid "Smiley," but I'm equally sure 
   that I don't know what that reason is.

Read John le Carre's "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy", "The Honorable Schoolboy"
or "Smiley's People".

The 24 children were, of course, killed by a lone gunman in a second story
window, who fired eight bullets in the space of two seconds...

-| In article <1993Apr28.200843.83413@embl-heidelberg.de>, tuparev@EMBL-Heidelberg.DE (Georg Tuparev) writes...
-| > 
-| > 
-| >ANNOUNCEMENT:	The "HyperKnowledge" PROJECT for NeXTSTEP
-| 
-| I know this is kinda off the subject of sci.space, but not really, I want to
-| answer this for their, as well as everyone else's information.  What these
-| people are proposing, by and large already exists and can be purchased today.
-| 
-| It is called labview by National Instruments. IT is a wonderful object
-| IT is a wonderful object oriented graphical programming language.
-| [some lines deleted]

I am afraid you are mis-directed. NeXTSTEP is an operating system as opposed to 
a package. I have read a little about it but since Steve Jobs does not seem to 
have the marketing capabilities of Bill Gates my info. is limited. Probably why
the far inferior Windows NT is going to be more widely distributed (but that
is another flame-ridden story). Some of the innovative features of NeXTSTEP are
binary compatibility across platforms (eg you can just copy your program from
a Sparc to a PC and it would run, as opposed to buying the version of the package
ported to a PC), graphical object-oriented design (its all WSIWIG postscript), 
supports parallel hetrogeneous processing, and best of all it is based around 
the Mach micro-kernel so you can make it look like Unix with X, or DOS, or NT or 
even VMS if you feel the need. No package out there comes even close. I hope 
people will subscribe to the HyperKnowledge project and NeXTSTEP finally
takes off in my lifetime :-)

Sure about that? Maybe Proxima might cause problems, but at Oort
Cloud distances AC a and AC b together look like a point source.

Besides, even the solar system's Oort cloud is unstable over
geologic time, right, and needs to be replentished from somewhere
else, like the short period comets of the Kupier Belt?

(Or maybe I'm misremembering something I read or heard somewhere...)

Until we're able to perform a broad-band survey of nearby stars
to detect planets, we won't know enough to say whether or not
a single star has planets. And we're likely to find out about the
close ones first.

Heck, if neutron stars can have planets, anything can have planets.
(Or was that discovery disconfirmed?)

[Interchange on Hoban deleted]

Only those you haven't actually read?  Sorry, but the irony remains.

So although you don't agree with the fatwa, and apparently don't think
Rushdie should be killed for his book, yet you think he is not due
sympathy for being being under this threat.  Furthermore you base this
reaction solely on the fact that he wrote about a particular
well-known story which -- if true -- might reflect poorly on the
absolute truth of your religion.  Yet, this opinion is formed without
recourse to actually looking to see how the story is used in context,
accepting at face value the widespread propaganda on just what this
book contains and what the author's motivations are.  And then you
come forward and recommend another book which touches on (presumably
"plays with") religious/historical material because you find its
overall presentation neutral!

Absolutely not true. Without religion - either an established one or
one you invent for yourself - the theist and atheist are equally
(not) interested in God, because without religious revelation there
is _no_ information about God available. Strip away the dogma and
the theists/atheists are no different, simply holding a different
opinion on a matter of little practical importance.

Sorry, but that doesn't help. What test will you apply to decide
whether it is God or Satan with whom you are speaking?
How will you know that you have not simply gone insane, or having
delusions? You are like a loaded gun.

Ah, you not as stupid as I assumed. :-)

Yes. We're all in this together - each human making up a small part of
the definition of humanity.

I don't necessarily disagree with your assertion, but I disagree with
your reasoning.  (Faith = Bad.  Dogma = Bad.  Religion -> (Faith ^ Dogma).
Religion -> (Bad ^ Bad).  Religion -> Bad.)  Unfortunately, you never 
state why faith and dogma are dangerous.  

If you believe faith and dogma are dangerous because of what happened in
Waco, you are missing the point.  

The Branch Davidians made the mistake of confusing the message with the
messenger.  They believed Koresh was a prophet, and therefore believed
everything he said.  The problem wasn't the religion, it was the 
followers.  They didn't die because of faith and dogma, they died because
of their zealotry (or, in the case of the children, the zealotry of their
parents).

So Christians are totally irrational?  Irrational with respect to their
religion only?  What are you saying?  One's belief in a Christian God does
not make one totally irrational.  I think I know what you were getting at,
but I'd rather hear you expand on the subject.

Again, this statement is too general.  A Christian is perfectly capable of
being a philosopher, and absolutely capable of changing his/her mind.  Faith in
God is a belief, and all beliefs may change.  Would you assert that atheists
would make poor philosophers because they are predisposed to not believe in a
God which, of course, may show unfair bias when studying, say, religion?

So, Christianity is a prison, eh?  Ever heard of parole?  You have read far
too much into this subject.  A Christian is one who follows the religion
based on the teachings of a man named Jesus Christ.  Nowhere does this
definition imply that one cannot change one's mind.  In prison, however,
you can't just decide to leave.  One is voluntary, the other is not.  The
two are not compatible.

I prefer to think of religion as a water pistol filled with urine. 8^)
Seriously, though, some (but certainly not all) religions do condemn
groups of people.  The common target is the "infidel," a curious being
who is alternately an atheist, a non-<insert specific religious
affiliation here>, a person of a different race, or an Egyptian. 8^)

Please explain how "just because" thinking kills people.  (And please
state more in your answer than "Waco.")

I'll see your conscientious peacenik and raise you a religious 
zealot with bad acne. 8^)  By the way, I wasn't aware mass suicide
was a problem.  Waco and Jonestown were isolated incidents.  
Mass suicides are far from common.

Yes!  Just take money from the profitable commercial enterprises
and give it to the government to "redistribute."  Government is so much
more efficient, trustworthy, and noble than self-serving businesses. :)

Let's nip this redistributionist ignorance in the bud.  If it were not
for commercial enterprises, the whole world would be starving.

Tell that to the people who run the 10-meter Keck telescope, or the 
astronomers and engineers working on the Gemini twin 8-meter telescope
project.  It took 7 years to build Keck I and now they are building
Keck II.  According to the December 1992 Sky & Telescope, "This
second 10-meter eye will convert the facility into a binocular telescope
with double the light-gathering power and the ability to resolve
the headlights of a car some 25,000 kilometers away."   Japan's 8.3-meter
Subaru telescope will soon join Keck on Mauna Kea.  All these telescopes
will work in the infrared, yes, but they are _visible light_ telescopes!

And haven't you heard anything about adaptive optics?  A lot of research
was done with "Star Wars" funding, and some is now being shared with
astronomers.  This shows great promise.  Soon, probably within a few
years, even the largest telescopes will be able to resolve to their 
theoretical limit _despite_ the distortions of the atmosphere.

To say that "visible light astronomy is already a dying field" is 
pure hokum.  To use the "logic" that things are already bad, so it doesn't
matter if it gets worse is absurd.  Maybe common sense and logic
are the dying fields.

	But hanging is certainly painful. Or, do you not let the condemned 
know they are going to die?

	Hanging is not supposed to be very pleasant. I believe that in 
actuality, it is not "quick and clean". However, gas chambers can be
quite non-painful. Heck, why not give them a good time? Suffication by
Nitrious Oxide!

	=)

---

Having read in the past about the fail-safe mechanisms on spacecraft, I had
assumed that the Command Loss Timer had that sort of function.  However I
always find disturbing the oxymoron of a "NO-OP" command that does something.
If the command changes the behavior or status of the spacecraft it is not
a "NO-OP" command.

Of course this terminology comes from a Jet Propulsion Laboratory which has
nothing to do with jet propulsion.

-- 

Finding a disk array that can do 180MB/sec. will be difficult. The fastest
ones I know about are from Maximum Strategy (IBM also sells these). They
can attach HiPPI at up to 144 MB/sec. (64 bit). For these kinds of data
rates you need more than SCSI for connections. Their latest model, the
RAID 5 model Gen 4 only does 90 MB/sec. but I think this may be a
limitation only of the HiPPI channel and that customer needs have not
exceeded that speed since their older model was faster. They are also not
idle (must be working on newer products that might be faster) and are a
small company so you might be able to ask about custom interfaces. They
still marketed the older, faster model as of a few mongths ago.

Maximum Strategy, Inc.
801 Buckeye Court
Milpitas, CA 95035-7408
sales@maxstrat.com

You might still want to look into compression as it will be very difficult
to keep the HiPPI bus fully working at all times - sustained throughput
might come close to maximum burst rate.

Interesting problem. Tell us more if you can?

Hello,

Thanks to the people who helped me with the problem of
displaying 24 bit images. All the viewers like xli,
xloadimage and display are converting the 24 bit images
to 8 bit before display them on the screen.

What I really want is a viewer with make use of the 24 bit
frame/screen buffer (in our case, the Parallax one).

Gilles

We've been progressing towards that goal for 30 years now.  We precede
any orbiting mission with flyby missions.  Of course, it gets harder to
do as we work our way farther away from Earth.  We're just starting to
work out to the outer planets: Galileo will orbit Jupiter, and Cassini around 
Saturn.  

People who criticize "big Government" and its projects rarely seem to
have a consistent view of the role of Government in science and
technology.  Basically, the U.S. Government has gotten into the role of
supporting research which private industry finds too expensive or too
long-term.  

(Historically, this role for the U.S. Gov't was forced upon it because
of socialism in other countries.  In order for U.S.  industries to
compete with government-subsidized foreign competitors, the U.S. Gov't
has taken on the role of subisizing big-ticket or long-lead R&D.)

As a Republican, I abhor the necessity for our Government to involve
itself in technology this way.  I believe that market forces should
drive technology, and the world would be a better place for it.  But
the whole world would have to implement this concept simultaneously, or
some countries would have subsidized R&D, while others would not.  So
the U.S. must subsidize because everybody else does.  (This sounds a
lot like the farm subsidies arguments behind our GATT negotiations,
doesn't it?)

But this role of Government subsidies is antithetical to
cost-effectiveness.  The general idea is to spend money on new
technology, and thereby maintain and promote our technological culture,
despite the forces in the business world (like the dreaded quarterly
earnings report) which erode the ability of U.S. industry to invest in
new technology.  And since our goal is to spend money, it makes little
sense to try to save money.

Of course, we could always spend our money more wisely, but EVERYBODY
disagrees about that the wisdom should be.  

It's interesting to note that some of our best tools for cost control
available in industry today were derived from Government projects.
GANTT charts, CP/M, and most of the modern scheduling software comes
from DoD projects and their contractors.  The construction industry
has taken these tools to the core of their businesses; every large
construction project now uses these tools.  

Okay, I got enough replies about the Kubota Kenai/Denali systems that I
will post a summary of their capabilities.  I haven't actually used one
or seen one, so take the specs with a grain of salt.  I'd like to see
an independent review of one against, say, an SGI Indigo Extreme or

Basically, the Kenai workstations are DEC Alpha AXP based workstations that
run OSF/1 ( DEC's ) and will likely run Windows NT in the future.  They are
binary compatible with Digital's OSF/1 Alpha AXP implementation.  Denali
is their graphics subsystem, which is upgradable in the field by
simply adding "transformation engines".

The two main Kenai machines are the 3400 Imaging and 3D Graphics Workstation
and the 3500 Imaging and 3D Graphics Workstation.

			3400			3500

CPU			DEC Alpha AXP 133MHz	DEC Alpha AXP 150MHz
On-chip cache		8k/8k			8k/8k
Onboard cache		512K			512K
Word Size		64-bit			64-bit
Memory ( initial )	32-128MB		32-256MB
Memory ( future )	512MB			1GB
SPECMARK89		111			126
SPECINT92		75			84
SPECFP92		112			128

GRAPHICS

Transform Modules	1-6			1-6
Frame Buffer Modules	5,10,20			5,10,20
Frame Buffer		1280x1024x24bit		1280x1024x24bit
			double buffered		double buffered
Z-buffer		24-bit			24-bit
Alpha/stencil		8-bit			8-bit
Stereo support		yes			yes
Other:				both machines will double buffer or do
				stereo output per window.  Both have an
				auxiliary video output that is RS-170A,
				NTSC, and PAL

STORAGE

Internal-fixed		2 3.5"			4 3.5"
Internal-removable	1 5.25"			2 5.25"
Max capacity		9.5GB			11.6 GB

IO

Both have TurboChannel 100MB/sec, SCSI-2, Ethernet, and FDDI

APPLICATION PROGRAMMING INTERFACES

Both have libraries for Xlib, Motif, MIT PEXlib, DEC-PEXlib DEC-PHIGS, and GL

Okay, now the real stuff.  The Kenai stations work with a graphics architecture
known as Denali.  The Denali comes in three models, the E, P, and V.  They
use a DECchip 21064 superscalar RISC processor at 150MHz.  Their
capabilities are as follows:

			E		P		V

2D Vectors		800-200K	2000-3800K	4000-4800K
3D Vectors #1		350-1100K	1100-1800K	1800-2100K
3D Vectors #2		300-1000K	1000-1600K	1600-1900K
3D Vectors #3		300-500K	800-1000K	1300-1400K
3D Triangles, #4	200-500K	600-1000K	1000-1200K
3D Triangles, #5	100-200K	300-400K	500-600K

#1: 10 pixel, flat shaded, connected
#2: 10 pixel, Gouraud shaded, connected
#3: 10 pixel, 2-pixel wide, anti-aliased, connected
#4: 50-pixel, Gouraud shaded, Z-buffered, strip
#5: 50-pixel, texture mapped, persp., point sampled

IMAGE PROCESSING

Cine loop - 8-bit	15-36Mp/s	37-58 Mp/s	60-68 Mp/s
Cine loop - 16-bit	14 Mp/s		25 Mp/s		38 Mp/s
Cine loop - 24-bit	12-21 Mp/s	21 Mp/s		21 Mp/s
Contrast stretching #1	14 Mp/s		25 Mp/s		20 Mp/s
Bilinear zoom		6 Mp/s		11 Mp/s		20 Mp/s
Trilinear interp#2	--		6 Mvoxels/s	11 Mvoxels/s

#1: Lookup table -- 12-,16-bit to 8
#2: Trilinear interpolation, 8-bit voxels

CONFIGURATIONS
Frame Buffer Modules	5		10		20
Transform Engine Mod.	1-3		3-5		5-6

As you can see, these are pretty powerful workstations, and the best part
is the pricing.  I would recommend that you call Kubota for more information.
Their number is 408-727-8100.  I'm sure they'll send you an information you
may want.  Oh, some prices:

Low-end

Kenai 3400, E Series w/ 1 TEM and 5 FBM --- 27,795 dollars U.S.
Kenai 3500, E Series w/ 1 TEM and 5 FBM --- 45,345 dollars U.S.

High-end

Kenai 3400, V Series w/ 6 TEM and 20 FBM -- 61,795 dollars U.S.
Kenai 3500, V Series w/ 6 TEM and 20 FBM -- 79,345 dollars U.S.

If someone could post a relative comparision with an Indigo Extreme or
something I would appreciate it.

Hope this helps someone out there,

Brian

That's funny, I thought you were making a statement about what
people think.    In fact, I see it quoted up there.

Well I agree with you in the sense that they have no "moral" right to inflict
these rules, but there is one thing I might add: at the very least, almost
everybody wants to avoid pain, and if that means sacrificing some stuff for a
herd morality, then so be it.  

Right, and since they grew up and learned around us, they have some idea of our
right and wrong, which I think must, in part, be incorporated.  Very rarely do
you see criminal behaviour for "philosophical reasons"

(stuff deleted)

-- 

--Adam

First, you seem to assume all atheists think alike.  An atheist does not
believe in the existence of a god.  Our opinions on issues such as 
capital punishment and abortion, however, vary greatly.  

If you were attacking the views of a particular atheist (Benedikt, I 
presume), then please present your argument as such and do not lump us
all together.

As for the issues, let's start with abortion.  Personally, I do not support
abortion as a means of population control or contraception-after-the-fact.
However, I support the right of any woman to have an abortion, regardless
of what my personal views may be, because it would be arrogant of me to tell
any individual what he/she may or may not do to his/her body, and the domain
of legislators should not extend into the uterus.  That's my opinion, and I
am sure many atheists and theists would disagree with me.

I do not defend homosexuality as a means of population control, but I 
certainly defend it as an end to itself.  I think most homosexuals would
be angered to hear of anyone characterizing their personal relationship as
nothing more than a conscious effort to keep population levels down.  

As for atheists believing all values are biological, I have no idea what
you're talking about.

Finally, there are the issues of war and capital punishment.  An atheist
can object to either one just as easily as a theist might.  You seem to
be hung up on some supposed conspiratorial link between atheism and 
population control.  Could this be the "atheist cause" you were referring 
to a few posts back?

This is not quite right.  The differential arrival time techinique
requires interplanetary baselines to get good positions.  The
differential arrival at the eight detectors differ by 10's of nanoseconds.
This is smaller than BATSE's microsecond timing capabilities.
BATSE, Ulysses, and Mars Obsverver are used for this technique.

Each BATSE detector does not have a full sky field of view.
The sensitivity of each detector decreases with increasing 
angle of incidence.  The burst position on the sky is determined by
comparing the count rates in different detectors.

Riddle me this.  If a god(s) exist why on earth should we grovel?  Why on earth
should we give a damm at all?  What evidence do you have that if such a
creature(s) exist it deserves anything beyond mild admiration or sheer
hatred for what it/they have done in the past (whichever god(s) you care to
pick).  That is assuming any records of their actions are correct.

Religon offers a bliss bubble of self contained reality which is seperate
from the physical world.  Any belief system can leave you in such a state
and so can drugs.  God(s) are not a requirement.  Only if you remove such
useless tappestry can you build a set of morals to build a society upon.
It is that or keep on exterminating those who don't believe (or converting
them).
  - Eric

NEW VIRUSES:

Hello netters,

   I'm new to this board and I thought this might be the best place
for my post.  I have a question regarding satellite technology seen
in the movie Patriot Games.  In the movies, the CIA utilizes its
orbitting sats to pinpoint a specific terrorist camp in N Africa.
The photos taken by the sats are stunning!  I know that sats are
capable of photographing the license plates of vehicles.  My
question is this:  The camp in question was taken out by the
British SAS.  And while the SAS was in action, the CIA team was
watching in the warroom back in Langley, VA.  The action of the SAS
was clear and appeared to be relayed via a sat.  The action was at
night and the photography appeared to be an x-ray type.  That is,
one could see the action within the tents/structures of the camp.
Does such techology exist and what is it's nature?  i.e., UV, IR,
x-ray, etc.

PS  Who wrote the book Patriot Games?

I haven't seen any mention of this in a while, so here goes...

When the Hubble Telescope was first deployed, one of its high gain antennas
was not able to be moved across its full range of motion.  It was suspected
that it had been snagged on a cable or something.  Operational procedures
were modified to work around the problem, and later problems have overshadowed
the HGA problem.

Is there any plan to look at the affected HGA during the HST repair mission,
to determine the cause of its limited range of motion?  Is the affected HGA
still limited, or is it now capable of full range of motion?

I don't know what you mean by 'edged', but surely there are two other
possibilities for an isotropic distribution: near interstellar (up to
~100 pc, i.e. within the disc), or the Galaxy's corona?

	This morning on CNN (tues April 27), Texas Cops say Arson is suspected
	because of two falsh points. CNN also stated that  _all_ surviors
	claim the fires are FBI set.  Your argument are made-up, untrue
	and unverified at best.

    The day of the attack the FBI claimed to have seen two BD'ers setting
    the fire outside of the compound. Yesterday, the arson squad said two 
    flash points at the or near the tank entry points

    Not good evidence for the FBI hit squad.

  is there a difference between thinking that you won't survive a confrontation
  with the FBI (parnoia?) and committing suicide?

	No, claimed by the escapees  not contradicted

	What I'm finding interesting is the conflicting reports. FBI says
	that bodies have been found with bullet wounds and the Texas Cornuers
	(sp) says that they haven't yet found any bullet holes..

We`ve had the the Great Western, the [ dunno ] and the Great Northern
postulated as Brunel`s masterpiece. Keep boxing the compass chaps, you`ll
get round to it eventually.

The Great Western was a highly successful transatlantic mail ship,
with hybrid sail and steam propulsion. The Great Eastern, which broke
the 'Little Giant' financially and otherwise, was a revolutionary leap
forward in ship design. A thirty thousand ton all steel vessel, with
primary steam propulsion, it was at the time easily the biggest ocean
going vessel ever built. Brunel took advantage of the fact that cargo
and / or fuel capacity rose with the cube of scale, while drag rose
with the square, so a really big ship could steam thousands of miles
without coaling.

Unfortunately, there was no real market for such a beast at the time,
and it was eventually sold off at scrap values. As another poster
said, it then went on to a successful career as a telegraph cable
laying ship. It was in fact the only ship of its day capable of laying
a transatlantic cable in one go, with the endurance and capacity to
carry the huge reel all the way, and the manoeuverabilty to dredge for
defective sections. See Arthur C Clarke`s book "How the World was One"
[ I think that`s right ]

If that`s how the Shuttle goes down in history, as a technical triumph
and a financial disaster for the builder, it would not be entirely
ignoble, but I doubt if history will be so charitable.  Its true the
Shuttle can do things no other launch system can do, but are they
worth doing? With low cost access to space, you could have an
affordable space station for doing shuttle-like extended manned
missions. As it is, the shuttle is not so much a space-truck as a
space-RV, ( only not so cheap to run :-( )

Yes a flotation tank, combined with floride breathing water(REF: the Abyss
breathing solution I think).. also the right position of the astronaut and
strapping you can probably get much more than 45gs in an accesloration..
More like near 100g (or somewhat less)..

Saw I book called the "Time Master" (I thjink that was the title) that had some
ideas on how fast and all you could go..

Yes I have written something that creates meshed fractal terrain
surfaces for exactly the purpose you require, importing into 3D
modelling packages. Be warned, the data content is high and brings
many packages to their knees. We use it primarily for MicroStation
but it exports DXF, as well as other formats, so you should be OK.
You can get it from my FTP mirror site in the US.
It is
   wuarchive.wustl.edu
my stuff is located in the
   mirrors/architec
directory. Please FTP the README file first.

-- 
Paul D Bourke                       School of Architecture, Property, Planning
pdbourke@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz        The University of Auckland
Ph:   +64 -9 373 7999 x7367         Private Bag 92019
Fax:  +64 -9 373 7410               Auckland, New Zealand

I replied to this query via e-mail, but I think there are some
issues that are worth discussing in public.

I would recommend you to take a look at

1) your dictionary
2) alt.atheism FAQ files

to notice that atheism is _not_ a belief system, and what is common
to all atheists is not a belief, but a _lack of belief in deities_.
I cannot imagine how anyone could do research on atheism without
paying careful attention to this issue. 

IMHO, this is a poor method to do any real survey, although I'm sure the
replies might keep you amused for hours.

No, I do _not_ know what you mean. If you are surveying our individual
philosophies, fine, but that's not strictly atheism. Atheism is not
just another, godless version of the theistic explanations for life,
the universe and everything. It is not a belief system, and it could
hardly be called a philosophical system.

Once more: Atheism is characterised by lack of belief in deities. 
Do not twist the meaning, or assume that we have some kind of
philosophy we all agree on.

Some comments on your questions:

I would also like to hear more about this. Have we been able to 'convert'
anyone?

This question contains a contradiction in terms. _Beliefs_ 
cannot be acquired rationally - if they could, they would not be 
beliefs! You also seem to have rather strange ideas of how people become
atheists - those who are alienated from religion do not necessarily
become atheists, they just think very little about religion. It seems
it requires a considerable time of honest inquiry to find out that
religions are actually intellectually dishonest virtual realities.

Those who have never had beliefs will certainly find this question
quite odd - how can lack of belief be acquired? When did I acquire
lack of belief in the Easter Bunny? (I did believe in Santa, though ;-))

This question does not make any sense, since atheism does not deal with
these issues - it is not a worldview, or a philosophy, or a belief system.

Sigh, why haven't I seen a good, well-thought survey in the Usenet
for three years... and what is the point of doing surveys in the net,
anyway? Just to abstract some opinions?

Petri

I have also been looking for this, but I have come up with nothing.
I have looked in ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu which is supposed to have a lot
of image-specs.

Email is preferred. If there is enough interest, I will post a 
summary.

------------------------------------------------------------------------         

Uh, no. These burst detectors are just that, burst detectors.
They have no angular resolution.

Now a network of burst detectors could have angular resolution,
but we do not have a decent set of different networks at the distances
neccesary from each other to determine if they're happening in the oort
cloud or not.

We have one network, and trying to make two networks out of it
degrades what angular resolution we have.

as far as simply mapping your logo or whatever onto a cube or sphere, 
it's quite easy. Just either copy the GIF you want mapped into the map 
directory or add a map path to the directory where it currently is. Then 
go into the materials editor and make a new material with that as the bit 
map, voila.. 

   |       /         |\
   | H E   \ Y B E R |/ E N            [ zippy@cyberden.sf.ca.us ]

: 
: >|> Has anyone got multiverse to work ?
: >|>          Extn 5543, sts@mfltd.co.uk, !uunet!mfocus!sts
: 
: I've tried compiling it on several SPARCstations with gcc 2.22.  After
: fixing up a few bugs (3 missing constant definitions plus a couple of
: other things) I got it to compile & link, but after starting client
: & server I just get a black window; sometimes the client core dumps,
: sometimes the server, sometimes I get a broken pipe, sometimes it
: just sits there doing nothing although I occassionally get the
: cursor to become a cross-hair in dog-fight, but that's it.  I've
: sent word to the author plus what I did to fix it last week, but
: no reply as yet.
: 
: Peter K. Campbell
: p.campbell@trl.oz.au

I've discovered a bug in the libraries/parser/parser.c loadcolour function where it was generating a segmentation fault.  It appears the colourList[] is geting corrupted somehow.  I had it return random colours instead and everything worked great (except for a few colour problems) so I know its the only thing wrong.

The colour table somehow gets a couple of nulls placed in it so when the "name" of the colours are compared it crashes.  I haven't found the problem yet maybe someone else can.

Right?  What right?  And don't you mean something more like: It so
typical that the wants of the minority can obstruct the wants of the
majority, no matter how ridiculous those minority wants might be or
what benefits those majority wants might have?

[My sole connection with the project is that I spent a lot of time in
classes at the University of Colorado.]

-- 

What is your reaction to people who claim they were abducted by space aliens?

Some of these people say, "I was abducted, experimented on, etc."
If we insist that these aliens don't exist is the burden of proof placed on
us. These people can give no hard facts but can give a lot of testimony to
back up their beliefs.

Replace <space aliens> with <elvis>, <big foot>, <blue unicorns>, 
and we have a larger percentage of the population than I like to think
about.

: This figure, is far below all the other figures I have seen.  If it
: is indeed accurate, then how do you explain the discrepancy between
: that figure, and other figures from international organizations?
: Most figures I have seen place the hit ratio close to 70%, which is 
: still far higher than your 35%.  Or does your figure say a bomb
: missed if the plane took off with it, and the bomb never hit the target,
: regardless of whether or not the bomb was dropped?  Such methods
: are used all the time to lie with statistics.

Answering the last sentence, claimed that they had a success rate of 80%
without initially explaining, until pressed, that this meant that 80%
of the aircraft came back having dropped their bombs somewhere, regardless'
of whether they had hit the intended target, or indeed anything al all.

Jonathan, interesting questions.  Some wonder whether or not the moon could
have ever supported an atmosphere.  I'd be interested in knowing what
our geology/environmental sciences friends think.

As for human tolerances, the best example of human endurance in terms
of altitude (i.e. low atmospheric pressure and lower oxygen partial pressure)
is in my opinion to the scaling of Mt. Everest without oxygen assistance.
This was accomplished by a team of mountaineers who trained at high
altitudes for quite awhile (I think a few months) and then were flown by
helicopter from that training altitude to the equivalent altitude on
Mount Everest, where they began the ascent of our planet's highest peak
without oxygen tanks.  This is quite a feat of physiological endurance, because
if you or I tried to go to 20,000 feet and exert ourselves, we would probably
pass out, get altitude sick, and could even die from cerebral edema. So
this is the limit of low pressure.  High pressure situations would be
limited by the duration of time which it takes to slowly acclimate to a higher
pressure.  Skin divers would know alot about high pressure situations and
could tell you about how they safely make deep dives without getting the
bends.  Some military experiments have put people under several atmospheres of
pressure (not sure what the high limit was because the papers aren't in
front of me).  Usually at a certain point, the nitrogen in the air becomes
toxic to the body and you start acting idiotic.  Divers call this nitrogen
narcosis.  Those afflicted can do very dangerous and irrational things, like
taking off a diving mask and oxygen tank in order to talk to fish at 100 feet
under water.  (Hope any diving folk can elaborate on this matter, as I
am not a diving expert).

Mars cannot support human life without pressurization because the atmosphere
is too thin (1/100 th  our Earth's atmospheric density).  In addition,
the Mars atmosphere is mostly carbon dioxide.  Basically, you would need a 
pressure suit there, or you'd die from the low pressure.  Interesting huh?

In God,
	whose word I praise,
	in God I trust;
	I will not be afraid.
	What can mortal man do to me?

You asked me to look over here, but I was on my way back anyway :-)

#[reply to cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)]
# 
#>If morals come from what is societally accepted, why follow that? What
#>right do we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally
#>mandated morality?  Pardon the extremism, but couldn't I murder your
#>"brother" and say that I was exercising my rights as I saw them, was
#>doing what felt good, didn't want anyone forcing their morality on me,
#>or I don't follow your "morality" ?
# 
#I believe that morality is subjective.  Each person is entitled to his
#own moral attitudes.  Mine are not a priori more correct than someone
#elses.  This does not mean however that I must judge another on the
#basis of his rather than my moral standards.  While he is entitled to
#believe what his own moral sense tells him, the rest of society is
#entitled to pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that is
#offensive to the majority.

Why?  Your last statement.  Why?  By which authority?  

#Most criminals do not see their behavior as moral.  The may realize that
#it is immoral and not care.  They are thus not following their own moral
#system but being immoral.  For someone to lay claim to an alternative
#moral system, he must be sincere in his belief in it and it must be
#internally consistent.  

Why?  Your last statement.  Why are these things necessary?  

And believe me, a belief in terrorism can be both sincere and frighteningly
consistent.

#Some sociopaths lack an innate moral sense and
#thus may be incapable of behaving morally.  While someone like Hitler
#may have believed that his actions were moral, we may judge him immoral
#by our standards.  Holding that morality is subjective does not mean
#that we must excuse the murderer.

Trouble is, this would sound just fine coming from someone like Hitler, too.
(I do *not* mean any comparison or offence, David.)   Try substituting 
the social minority of your choice for 'sociopath', 'Hitler',  and
'murderer'.  No logical difference.  Someone like you, vs. someone like
Hitler. Zero sum.  

rh> From: house@helios.usq.EDU.AU (ron house)
rh> Newsgroups: alt.atheism
rh> Organization: University of Southern Queensland

rh> I _know_ I shouldn't get involved, but...   :-)

rh> [bit deleted]

[rest of rant deleted]

This is a standard argument for fundies.  Can you spot the falicy? The
statement is arguing from the assumption that Jesus actually existed.  So far,
they have not been able to offer real proof of that existance.  Most of them
try it using the (very) flawed writings of Josh McDowell and others to prove
it, but those writers use VERY flawed sources.  (If they are real sources at
all, some are not.)  When will they ever learn to do real research, instead of
believing the drivel sold in the Christian bookstores.

rh> Righto, DAN, try this one with your Cornflakes...

rh> The book says that Muhammad was either a liar, or he was
rh> crazy ( a  modern day Mad Mahdi) or he was actually who he
rh> said he was. Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as
rh> follows.  Who would  die for a lie?  Wouldn't people be able
rh> to tell if he was a liar?  People  gathered around him and
rh> kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing  how his
rh> son-in-law made the sun stand still.  Call me a fool, but I
rh> believe  he did make the sun stand still.  
rh> Niether was he a lunatic.  Would more than an entire nation
rh> be drawn  to someone who was crazy.  Very doubtful, in fact
rh> rediculous.  For example  anyone who is drawn to the Mad
rh> Mahdi is obviously a fool, logical people see  this right
rh> away.
rh> Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have
rh> been the  real thing.  

Nice rebutal!

: Very true (length of time for discussions on creationism vs evolutionism). 
: Atheists and Christians have been debating since ?? and still debate with 
: unabated passion 8-).

Mike,

I've seen referrences to "Creation vs Evolution" several times in a.a
and I have question. Is either point of view derived from direct
observation; can either be scientific? I wonder if the whole
controversy is more concerned with the consequences of the "Truth"
rather than the truth itself. 
Both sides seem to hold to a philosophical outcome, and I can't help
wondering which came first. As I've pointed out elsewhere, my view of
human nature makes me believe that there is no way of knowing
anyhthing objectively - all knowledge is inherently subjective. So, in
the context of a.a, would you take a stand based on what you actually
know to be true or on what you want to be true and how can you tell
the difference?

Well, you were going well until you hit this one.

Hawaii was an independent country.  A coup by Americans led to a request to
annex it.  The US refused, but eventually did annex it several years later
during the Spanish-American War.
--

My information shows that the last San Marco launch was 1988.  There seem to 
have been a total of seven before that.  I seem to recall that someone, either
ASI or the University of Rome (?) includes money in their annual budget for
maintainance of the platforms (there are actually two).

The Italians have been spending money to develop an advanced Scout.  However,
recent events in the Italian space program, and the Italian government overall
make me skeptical that this will get off the ground in the near future.

The "artist renderings" that I've seen of the HST reboost still have
the arrays fully extended, with a cradle holding HST at a ~30 degree
angle to the Shuttle.  I think the rendering was conceived before the
array replacemnet was approved, so I'm not sure if the current reboost
will occur with the arrays deployed or not.  However, it doesn't 
appear that an array retraction was necessary for reboost.

Thanks for the input on GRO's S/A design constraints.  That would 
explain the similar design on UARS.

Heck, the MMS project used to design _missions_ with servicing in mind.
The XTE spacecraft was originally designed as an on-orbit replacement
for the instrument module on EUVE.  That way, you get two instruments
for the price of one spacecraft bus (the Explorer Platform).  A 
second on-orbit replacement was also considered, with the FUSE telescope.

Basically the right question, although I was interested in cases closer
to home where the Sun is behind either a natural object or effective
shielding.

Good point (and thanks for the references).

Much of Cook's later exploration was privately funded, by Joseph Banks
among others (eg in Resolution & the earlier Endeavour).  Colnett's voyage
to the Galapagos was substantially privately funded by the owners of
British whaling vessels.  Chancellor and Willoughby were privately funded
by London merchant companies in their voyages to Muscovy.  The list is
almost endless.  Those doing the funding were about eighty percent
motivated by potential profit, ten percent by potential glory and ten
percent by the desire to advance the sum of human knowledge.

In <1ren9a$94q@morrow.stanford.edu> salem@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Bruce Salem) 

This brings up another something I have never understood.  I asked this once
before and got a few interesting responses, but somehow didn't seem satisfied.
Why would the NT NOT be considered a good source.  This might be a 
literary/historical question, but when I studied history I always looked for 
firsthand original sources to write my papers.  If the topic was on Mr. X, I 
looked to see if Mr. X wrote anything about it.  If the topic was on a group, 
look for the group, etc.  If the topic is on Mr. X, and Mr. X did not write 
anything about it, (barring the theistic response about the Bible being 
divinely inspired which I can't adequately argue), wouldn't we look for people
who ate, worked, walked, talked, etc. with him?  If someone was at an event 
wouldn't they be a better "reporter" than someone who heard about it second 
hand?  I guess isn't firsthand better than second hand.  I know, there is bias,
and winners writing history, but doesn't the principle of firsthand being best
still apply?

MAC
--

What is "aluminium siding"?  I keep seeing references to it.  Something to do
with railway lines, perhaps?

E-mail reply please, I'll never find it otherwise.

I baptize you with water for repentance.
	But after me will come one who is more powerful than I,
	whose sandals I am not fit to carry.
	He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

WOW! Are you serious! So not everyone who calls themself a Christian is
a Christian? WOW! That does make things a bit more complicated doesn't it?

That seems like very good advice, given the above revelation.

Like for example Matthew 5:14-19 right?

Um, where did Jesus say that he wanted people to worship him?

I am considering creating a "demo" for the IBM PC for my band.
I would like to combine interesting graphics and a sample of 
my music in the program.  I have seen things like this
done for other platforms, and even a few for the PC, but since
I'm completly new to this, I have no idea wher to start.
I'm pretty sure that I am not skilled enough to put this 
together, but I was hoping that you (collectivly) could
A. Let me know what issues I need to worry about, things I
   Should take into consideration when developing the 
   concept.
B. Perhaps someone knows of a programmer/artist who would be interested
   in this type of a project.

I know these are rather broad questions, but any information
would be most helpful.  Thanks!!

A "moment of silence" doesn't mean much unless *everyone*
participates.  Otherwise it's not silent, now is it?

Non-religious reasons for having a "moment of silence" for a dead
classmate: (1) to comfort the friends by showing respect to the
deceased , (2) to give the classmates a moment to grieve together, (3)
to give the friends a moment to remember their classmate *in the
context of the school*, (4) to deal with the fact that the classmate
is gone so that it's not disruptive later.

Blindly opposing everything with a flavor of religion in it is
utterly idiotic.

Ithaca technical support can be reached at:

     tech_support@ithaca.com

or by phone at:
 
     510-523-5900

If I remember correctly Prometheus books have this one in stock,
so just call them and ask for the book.

Cheers,
Kent

molecules has evolved from an esoteric academic subject into
a  international  industry. Computer  graphics has played  a
decisive role in this transformation by allowing chemists to
build, visualize and interact with complex geometrical objects.
 
While computer scientists are conversant in the language of their
own discipline, they are often unfamiliar with the terminology,
simulation techniques and practical needs of research chemists.
Similarly, chemists are often unfamiliar with the latest paradigms
and technological advances in graphical computing.
 
This interdisciplinary course is intended to bridge the gap
between computer science and chemistry and to equip chemistry
researchers who wish to be more than just casual users of
prepackaged graphics software. Although this is not intended to
be a course in computational chemistry or drug design, data sets
from chemical research problems will be used in lab and students
will be encouraged to bring data sets of their own. Lab exercises
and projects will be carried out using data-flow programming
(IBM Visualization Data Explorer software) and students will have
access to Cornell Theory Center computing resources, including video
recording equipment.
 
Audience:  researchers and students in the chemical and biological
           sciences interested in integrating state-of-the-art
           computer graphics into their research; computer scientists
           wishing to gain familiarity with a major application of
           scientific visualization.
 
           The class size will be limited to 25 participants on a
           first-come first-served basis.
 
Level:     Graduate/advanced undergraduate, 1 or 2 Credits. May be taken
           without credit as a workshop. Calculus, linear algebra
           and introductory chemistry required. Familiarity with Unix,
           X-windows and C is useful but not required.
 
Date:   June 14-25, 1993  (2 Credits)
        June 14-18, 1993  (1 or 0 credits)
 
Time:   Mon-Fri 9:00 am to 12:00 pm and 1:00 pm to 4:00 pm
 
Cost:   0 or 1 credit       $410
        2 credits           $820
 
Format
 
The course will be held in the Theory Center training facility
where computer workstations will be available.  Daily lectures will be
interspersed with laboratory exercises and ample time will be provided
for project enablement and familiarization with the new computing
environment. Students enrolled for one credit will be graded on the basis
of their laboratory exercises and short final project. Those enrolled
for a second credit will receive more advanced lectures, be given
more time for project development and meet daily to share experience
and discuss problems encountered.
 
Content (may vary)
 
    Elements of computer graphics
         polygonal rendering, lighting models, ray tracing, volumetric
         rendering, stereo graphics, animation, introduction to data-flow
         programming (DX), interactivity.
 
    Representing the atom
         size, time and energy scales
         basic classical and quantum mechanics
 
    Important categories of molecules
         small molecules, biopolymers, surfaces and catalysts,
         miscellaneous current applications
 
    Data formats and conversions
 
    Advanced molecular graphics techniques
 
    Types of simulation and experiment
         electronic structure, molecular dynamics/mechanics
         electrostatics, X-ray crystallography, NMR, quantum
         dynamics and spectroscopy.
 
Instructors
 
The course will be taught by two instructors. Topics related to computer
graphics will be handled by Dr. Bruce Land, Project Leader of Visualization,
Cornell National Supercomputing Facility. Chemistry-specific aspects
of the course will be handled by Dr. Richard E. Gillilan, Visualization
Specialist and Research Scientist, Cornell National Supercomputing Facility
 
TO REGISTER:  mail completed form to
 
              Cornell University
              School of Continuing Education
              and Summer Sessions
              B20 Day Hall
              Ithaca, NY 14853-2801
 
Questions:  Richard Gillilan (607) 254-8757
            richard@tc.cornell.edu
 
IMPORTANT: Acceptance will be first-come, first-served and based
           on a target class size of 15 full-credit and 10 single
           or non-credit participants.
 
DEADLINE:   May 20, 1993
 
----------------------- Application Form ----------------------
 
         Scientific Visualization of Chemical Systems
 
            Chemistry 782    Computer Science 718
 
U.S. Social Security number (if available) _____ - ___ - _______
 
Cornell ID number (if available) ________________
 
Name: _______________________________________________________________
         Last            First         Middle        Suffix (Jr, etc)
 
Address: _____________________________________________________________
 
         _____________________________________________________________
 
Home Address (where grades will be mailed):
 
Local Phone ________________   Home Phone _______________
 
Academic Discipline _____________________________
 
Course number (check one):   __ Chemistry  __ Computer Science
 
Credits:       __.__
 
Status:     __ Undergraduate Student   __ Smart Node Consultant
            __ Graduate Student        __ Smart Node Advisor
            __ Post-Doctoral
            __ Faculty                 __ Other (explain) _______________
 
Corporate Commercial
 
            __ Research Staff          __ Other (explain) ______________
 
Name of Firm ___________________________________________________________
 
Indicate which of the following best describes you (optional):
 
  __ African American  __ Alaskan Native     __ Asian American
  __ Caucasian         __ Hispanic American  __ Native American
 
List special needs (e.g. mobility impaired): ____________________________
 
Accommodations:
 
Blocks of rooms are available at the Sheraton. Reservations
must be made no later than May 17. Be sure to tell them you
are here for the "Cornell Theory Center Visualization Workshop".
 
    Sheraton Inn
         One Sheraton Drive, Ithaca
         (607) 257-2000
         FAX: 607-257-398
         Rates starting at $64.00
 
Other local motels (Make your reservation early! Our
workshop coincides with other Cornell events)
 
Econo Lodge
        Cayuga Mall 2303 N. Triphammer Rd. Ithaca
        (607) 257-1400
        (800) 466-6900
        FAX: (607) 257-6359
        Rates from $35.10 (ask for the Cornell Rate)
 
Dorm rooms have also been reserved participants
(both credit and non-credit). Participants who
are interested in dorm rooms should call (below)
for registration information:

I am applying for an NSF grant to buy equipment for a laboratory...

The lab will need to support C (or Pascal) with graphics tools...

We can run the lab either on PC's or  DEC equipment --- 

If you are familiar with appropriate products (software/hardware) and precise
prices. Please contact

shai@lcc.stonehill.edu

We are interested in any available acadmic discounts....

Also, if anyone runs a lab using similar software/hardware, I would be very
interested in hearing your opinions of its success

Thanks

A bright light phenomenon was observed in the Eastern Finland
    on April 21. At 00.25 UT two people saw a bright, luminous
    pillar-shaped phenomenon in the low eastern horizont near
    Mikkeli. The head of the pillar was circular. The lower part
    was a little winding. It was like a monster they told. They
    were little frightened. Soon the yellowish pillar became
    enlarged. A bright spot like the Sun was appeared in the middle
    of the phenomenon. At last the light landed behind the nearby
    forest. Now there was only luminous trails in the sky which were
    visible till morning sunrise.

    The same phenomenon was observed also by Jaakko Kokkonen in
    Lappeenranta. At 00.26 UT he saw a luminous yellowish trail in
    the low northeastern horizont. The altitude of the trail was
    only about 3-4 degrees. Soon the trail began to grow taller.
    A loop was appeared in the head of the trail. It was like a
    spoon. This lasted only 10 seconds. Now the altitude was about
    five degress above horizont. He noted a bright spot at the
    upper stage of loop. The spot was at magnitude -2. The loop
    became enlarged and the spot was now visible in the middle of
    the loop. A cartwheel-shaped trail was appeared round the bright
    spot. After a minute the spot disappeared and only fuzzy trails
    were only visible in the low horizont. Luminous trails were still
    visible at 01.45 UT in the morning sky.

    The phenomenon was caused by a Russian rocket. I don't know if
    there were satellite launches in Plesetsk Cosmodrome near
    Arkhangelsk, but this may be a rocket experiment too. Since 1969
    we have observed over 80 rocket phenomena in Finland. Most of
    these are rocket experiments (military missile tests?), barium
    experiments and other chemical releases. During these years we
    have observed 17 satellite launches.

    Leo Wikholm

: At the risk of beginning a cascade, I'll start with a possibly cheesy
: good 'ol Uhmericun:

: "Our shield is freedom"

Or, considering what our government has been doing for the past 50 years,
perhaps this would be more appropriate:

     "100% Debt"

--

Is there a DOS screen capture utility -- PD or shareware -- that will
work reliably with VESA 6a 800x600 screens?

Sorry to split hairs, but I just read in "The making of the atomic
bomb"(*) that teflon was developed during world war 2.  A sealant was
needed for the tubing in which uranium hexafluoride passed as it was
gradually enriched by difussion.  UF6 is very corrosive, and some very
inert yet flexible material was needed for the seals.

Alejo Hausner (hausner@qucis.queensu.ca)

I'm for the moment interested in this notion of the 'leap of faith'
established by Kierkegaard. It clearly points out a possible solution
to transcendental values. What I don't understand is that it also
clearly shows the existentialism system where any leap to any
transcendental direction is equal. 

In other words I might not jump off the cliff mentioned above,
but at the same time I will decide to what direction I will go.
Actually I will do it just now.

Cheers,
Kent

It has. There is a guy running around in Switzerland who claims to have
been conceived similarly. His mother says the same. His father is said to
be a bit surprised.
 
But anyway, there have been a lot of Messiahs, and many have had a similar
story about their birth. Or their death. A list of Messiahs could be quite
interesting.
 
I would wonder why an omnipotent god pulls such stunts instead of providing
evidence for everyone to check. And the whole question is absurd.
 
Wouldn't you feel bad if you'd find out that stones are sentient, and that
you have stepped on them all your life? And wouldn't you feel bad when you'd
see the proof that Jesus was just a plot of Satan?
 
You've forgotten the pride factor.
 
The argument is a fallacy. It is like "thanks for reading this far" on the end
of a letter. Most religions claim that they won't fizzle because they contain
some eternal truth. So does Christianity. Since there are old religions it is
no wonder to find old religions that have it that they would last.

Climbers regard 8000 metres and up as "The Death Zone".  Even on 100% Oxygen,
you are slowly dying.  At 8848m (Everest), most climbers spend only a short
period of time before descending.  I've been above 8000 once.  Descending as
little as 300m feels like walking into a jungle, the air is so thick.  Everest
in winter without oxygen, no support party (Alpine style).  That is the
"ultimate challenge" (or is it solo?)

I have to agree with Ward.  The problem with your approach is they add
up what you can reasonably claim as 'spin-offs', add up what's been
spent on space, and then come back with something like, "You spent $X
billion for that?  Wouldn't it be better just to spend the money on
direct research and forget all this space stuff?  We could have got
all that stuff a *lot* cheaper that way.  Space is wasteful and
inefficient."

Then they cancel your funding and spend it studying mating rituals of
New Guinea tribesmen or something.

-- 

   This does not propose a _mechanism_ for GRBs in the Oort (and, no,
   anti-matter annihilation does not fit the spectra at least as far
   as I understand annihilation spectra...). Big difference.
   That's ignoring the question of how you fit a distribution
   to the Oort distribution when the Oort distribution is not well
   known - in particular comet aphelia (which are not well known)
   are not a good measure of the Oort cloud distribution...

Merging neutron stars is at least a mechanism with about the right
energy, except it doesn't explain why there is no apparent correlation
with galaxies or galaxy structure, there is no mechanism for getting
all the energy out in gamma rays (with any significant amount of
baryons around there will be a lot of pair production, which makes a
plasma, which thermalizes the energy), it has trouble generating
enough energy to explain the most powerful bursts (10^52-53 ergs), it
happens too fast compared to the burst duration, and it is hard to
make tight-binaries of neutron stars.

Another cosmological mechinism is the catalytic conversion of a
neutron star to a strange star or the merger of two strange stars, but
that uses pretty far-out physics.

My point is that we don't have a good mechanism at any distance, so
GRB's are likely to be happening by an unknown mechanism, so we can't
rule out the Oort cloud.  What would be the spectrum of an event which
converts a comet to strange matter?  The spectra for primordial black
holes eating comets and antimatter comets colliding with matter comets
aren't quite right, but perhaps there is an unusual mechanism which
modifies the spectrum.  The energy matches very well for both of these
mechanisms.  According to Trevor Weeks, if the "Tunguska Meteorite"
was a mini-black hole collision with the earth, then there are likely
to be enough mini-black holes around that the rate for BH-comet
collisions matches the GRB rate well.

The fact that we don't know the distribution of comets in the Oort
cloud isn't a reason to rule them out; it makes it harder to rule them
out.  The point of the cited paper was that if we assume they got the
right distribution for the Oort cloud, it is hard but not impossible
to match that up with the distribution of GRB's.  If they got the
wrong distribution for the Oort cloud, they can't constrain any Oort-
cloud GRB's at all.

In the hands of a defender, a .357 _is_ a miracle from God.  He helps those 
who help themselves.  Or haven't you ever heard that one before?

Just taking a guess, perhaps it was that Koresh had peaceably been served
with warrants before, and he did not shoot anyone but instead went with the
police without fighting.
--

Hello out there,
If your familiar with the COMET program then this concerns you.
COMET is scheduled to be launched from Wallops Island sometime in June.
Does anyone know if an official launch date has been set?

Playmation is available direct from Anjon & Associates for $299.  It's hard
to beat that price.  Also, you'd be better off with a newer version than
an older version that had bugs that have long since been clobbered.  

Exactly...

I didn't want to mess with tga or rle.  So I wrote the following script. 
All you need is the very standard set of pbm utilities. 

This script is a .pov to .jpg converter.  Just run it like this:

  pov2jpg 1280 1024 fred.pov 

You will need to modify the path's in the script to reflect where you put
povray and its include files.  If you have a problem with disk space, you
can use named pipes instead of temporary files.

I hope you find it useful...

#!/bin/sh

if [ $# -lt 3 ] ; then
  echo "usage:  $0 width height sourcefile.pov other_options"
  exit
fi

width=$1
height=$2
datafile=$3
shift 3

#basedatafile=`echo $datafile | sed -e "s/\(.*\)\.pov/\1/"`

thedatafile=`basename $datafile` 
basedatafile=`basename $datafile .pov` 
dirdatafile=`dirname $datafile` 

cd $dirdatafile
/afs/rnd.sas.com/u/sherman/pov/povsrc/build/povray \
  +l/afs/rnd.sas.com/u/sherman/pov/povscn/include \
  +o/tmp/data$$ +w${width} +h${height} +fr +i${thedatafile} $*

echo " "
rawtopgm $width $height < /tmp/data$$.grn > /tmp/green$$
rawtopgm $width $height < /tmp/data$$.red > /tmp/red$$
rawtopgm $width $height < /tmp/data$$.blu > /tmp/blue$$
rgb3toppm /tmp/red$$ /tmp/green$$ /tmp/blue$$ | cjpeg > ${basedatafile}.jpg 
rm /tmp/red$$ /tmp/green$$ /tmp/blue$$ /tmp/data$$.grn /tmp/data$$.red \
   /tmp/data$$.blu
echo "Wrote output to ${basedatafile}.jpg"

: >Why not build a inflatable space dock.

: If you're doing large-scale satellite servicing, being able to do it in
: a pressurized hangar makes considerable sense.  The question is whether
: anyone is going to be doing large-scale satellite servicing in the near
: future, to the point of justifying development of such a thing.

That's a mighty fine idea.  But since you asked "Why not," I'll
respond.

Putting aside the application of such a space dock, there are other
factors to consider than just pressurized volume.  Temperature control
is difficult in space, and your inflatable hangar will have to 
incorporate thermal insulation (maybe a double-walled inflatable).
Micrometeoroid protection and radiation protection are also required.
Don't think this will be a clear plastic bubble; it's more likely
to look like a big white ball made out of the same kind of multi-layer
fabric that soft-torso space suits are made out of today.

Because almost all manned space vessels (Skylab, Mir, Salyut) used
their pressurization for increased structural rigidity, even though
they had (have) metal skins, they still kind of qualify as inflatable.

The inflation process would have to be carefully controlled.  The
space environment reduces ductility in exposed materials (due to
temperature extremes, monotomic Oxygen impingement, and radiation
effects on materials), so your "fabric" may not retain any flexibility
for long.  (This may not matter.)  Even after inflation, pressure
changes in the hangar may cause flexing in the fabric, which could
lead to holes and tears as ductility decreases.

These are some of the technical difficulties which the LLNL proposal
for an inflatable space station dealt with to varying degrees of
success.

Wow.

[ There are actually some talk.abortion related comments below, believe it or
  not... ]

Well, if our observer X is as likely to be in A's position as B's, and if he
agrees that both A and B are making appropriate observations and inferences
regarding the situation, then I would expect him to conclude that there is no
right answer.  Hopefully there would be some other factor which would allow
him to make some judgement regarding which answer to accept.

If, on the other hand, he disagrees with the principles of either A or B, I
suspect he would make a decision in favour of the other one.

It is unfortunately the case that not all moral arguments have answers from
all perspectives.  For instance, I am completely unable to come to any
conclusion regarding whether abortion should be allowed or not, from my
perspective.  In an ideal world, all living things would have a right to
life; but in an ideal world, women would have the absolute right to do what
they like with their own bodies.  Clearly there is no way to resolve in
favour of both these principles.  Therefore I agree with the compromise
solution of allowing abortion up to a certain time after conception, and
deciding on the time based on various (sometimes ill-defined) criteria.  This
is also a sensible move, I think, because it lets people make their own
decisions (within reason).  And for what it's worth, I am reasonably happy
with current UK abortion law.

Similarly, the situation in what's left of Yugoslavia is a horrible mess, and
I really can't see my way to any sort of conclusion.  There, I don't even
know enough to imagine what sort of compromise one might manage.

This is a good question.  There are major blind spots in our understanding
of what makes the earth habitable.  For example, why does the earth's
atmosphere have the concentration of oxygen it does?  The naive
answer is "photosynthesis", but this is clearly incomplete.  Photosynthesis
by itself can't make the atmosphere oxygenated, as the oxygen produced
is consumed when the plants decay or are eaten.  What is needed
is photosynthesis plus some mechanism to sequester some fraction of
the resulting reduced material.

On earth, this mechanism is burial in seafloor sediments of organic
matter, mostly from oceanic sources.  However, this burial requires
continental sediments (in the deep ocean, the burial rate is so slow
that most material is consumed before it can be sequestered).

This suggests that a planet without large oceans, or a planet without
continents undergoing weathering, will have a hard time accumulating
an oxygen atmosphere.  In particular, an all-ocean planet may have a
hard time supporting an oxygen atmosphere.

There is also the problem of why the oxygen in the earth's atmosphere
has been relatively stable over geological time, for a period at least
2 orders of magnitude longer than the decay time of atmospheric O2 to
weathering in the absence of replenishment.  No convincing feedback
mechanism has been identified.  Perhaps the reason is the weak
anthropic principle: if during the last 500 MYr or so, the oxygen
level had dropped too low, we wouldn't be here to be wondering about
it.

Well, I am placing a file at my ftp today that contains several
polygonal descriptions of a head, face, skull, vase, etc. The format
of the files is a list of vertices, normals, and triangles. There are
various resolutions and the name of the data file includes the number
of polygons, eg. phred.1.3k.vbl contains 1300 polygons.

In order to get the data via ftp do the following:

	1) ftp taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil
	2) login as anonymous, guest as the password
	3) cd pub/dabro
	4) binary
	5) get cyber.tar.Z

Once you get the data onto your workstation:

	1) uncompress data.tar.Z
	2) tar xvof data.tar

If you have any questions, please let me know.

george dabro
dabro@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil
-- 
george dabrowski
Cyberware Labs

Perhaps all of us hackers have become (ICK) PROFESSIONALS?  I have noticed
my and my associates progression from hackers to computer professionals.
It is rather distasteful.  It occurs when a series of things happen:

   1) one's ego outgrows one's talent/knowledge
   2) one's financial situation takes precedence
   3) A change in priorities (esp. family) possibly leading to 2)
   4) the hacker's attitude makes the shift from "fun" to "work"
   5) one's vocation burns away the creativity needed for "the hobby"

or the biggest killer (IMO)

   6) one's dreams are (sadly) shattered on the hard rocks of society's
      version of reality.  Without the dream the motivation dies, without
      the motivation the effort seems useless.

Another set of problems stems from our children.  While most of us remember
when there were several completely different computer systems, our children
are growing up with just a few choices (MSDOS/Mac/Amiga) and do not enjoy
the diversity we did.  I remember the great computer fallout of the early
eighties vividly as I was forced to stop using skills developed for systems
that were now dead.  The diversity of systems before then allowed for widely
divergent paradigms.  That period forced hackers to continually learn new
systems in the attempt to keep up.  Not to mention that if a program was
needed we were forced (in most situations) to write it ourselves as a
commercial offering was just not available.  Now our children are being
taught the "user" mentality.  As the number of us "old-timers" dwindle we are
not being replaced by the next generation.

Kendall.
-- 
   Kendall Sears                           krsear02@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
   Programmer                             ///
   Child Development Unit                /// Amiga
   Department of Pediatrics          \\\/// Currently running AmigaOS 3.0
   University of Louisville           \XX/ And Supporting Unix Sys V Rev 4.

try  cd'ing to

	publications/May_93_online

on siggraph.org

It's there!

I have never said that only humans are the only beings which are
sufficiently sentient to have intentions.   In fact, I have explicitly
said that I am perfectly happy to consider that some animals *are*
capable of forming intentions.

What I am objecting to is considering programmed or instinctive
behaviour to have moral significance, since, it seems to me, 
such behaviour does *not* involve intention.

That's not the point.   The point is whether the implementor thinks
*at all*.    The issue is not whether thinking produces opinion A
or opinion B, but whether thinking takes place, period.

Since humans are part of nature, are not all human actions "natural".

Or perhaps you're going to throw in a definition of "natural" that
will allow us to describe some actions as "natural" and some as 
"not natural".   If so, what is the definition?

Sure they do, as multiple posters have show you.   Sharks, for example,
eat wounded sharks.   I've personally seen cats eat their newborn.

Are you in some kind of denial?   People give you example after example,
and you go off the air for a week, and then pop up claiming that it 
never happened.    It's very strange.

See what I mean.   Here we go again.   What do we have to do: write
up a tailor-made FAQ just for Mr Schneider?

Apologies...  Your mail is probably in the pile that arrived just before
I got sick about a month ago...  A reply will appear eventually...

So far, there have been none (unless you count an interview in The Amateur
Computerist about the history of netnews, which may be disqualified because
TAC's budget doesn't run to reproducing photos...).

I don't clearly understand 'occlusion' in computer graphics.
Would you please give me an explanation?

BTW, what's the difference between 'occluded surface' and opaque surface?

Idea for repair of satellites:

Warning I am getting creative again:

Why not build a inflatable space dock.

Basically deploy one side of the space dock (using a scissor shaped structure,
saw it on beyond 2000), then maneuer the side to next to the satellite and then
move the rest of the dock around the satellite and seal it..
The inflate the dock with a gas (is does not have to be oxygen, just neeeds to
be non-flameble, non-damaging to the satellite and abel to maintain heat),
thenheat the space dock (for the astronaut who will be working onthe satellite
to be able to not have to wear the normal bulky space suit, but a much striped
down own).. 

I know this might take a slot of work or not??? Or just to plain wierd, but
ideas need to be thought of, for where is tomorrow, but in the imagination of
the present..

Within the next several months I'll be looking for a job in computer
graphics software.  I'm in need of info on graphics software companies. 
I've checked the FAQ, the resource list, and siggraph.org, haven't found
anything.  The last Computer Graphics Career Handbook that I'm aware of,
was published in 1991.  It has a list of 40 companies in it, but no
tremendously specific information on any of them.

Can people please steer me towards more current and in-depth informational
resources?  Thanks.  I'll post a summary if there's interest.

Brandon

Obviously, we have different sources. Bill Moyers (who happens to be a
theist, to tie this to alt.atheism!) in his PBS documentary "After The
War" is my main source. (I think I still have it on videotape.) Others
include The Nation and The Progressive.

The rest of the article is mere rationalisation. You may claim that
sanitation plants are strategic "legitimate" targets, but what happens to
the civilians in a city with no sewer system? What happens to the
civilians when you destroy water purification plants? And when hospitals
can't handle the resultant epidemics, because there is no more electricity?

And what exactly are your sources? We have all, I'm sure, seen Postol's
interviews in the media where he demostrates how the Pentagon lied about
the Patriot's effectiveness; what is your source for the 70%
effectiveness you claim?

In any case, I don't know if this is relevant to alt.atheism. How about
if we move it somewhere else?

-s

Actually, the situation is even worse than that.  The *total mass* of the
Pluto Fast Flyby spacecraft is only 250ish pounds, and most of that is
support equipment like power and communications.  The mass available for
instruments is maybe 10% of that.  I don't think a BATSE will fit...

Actually, would you need the shielding?  My understanding is that it's
mostly there to give the detectors some directionality.  No point in
doing that if you've only got one.  I'm sure the burst detectors that
have flown on other deep-space missions haven't weighed that much.
(Mind you, they're probably still too heavy -- the PFF people would put
more Pluto-specific instruments on first, if they had any mass to spare.)

Greetings this is a general call for information regarding Image
Processing. I am looking for any material related to the field, and am
also trying to get my hands on some easy to use packages related to the
field. In particular source code for general use packages.

I already have several texts on the subject, but would appreciate more
input from people more knowledgable in the field than myself. I'm not
mathematically literate (ie. I don't have a degree in mathematics), so
any material that is suggested I would prefer that it was not
mathematically intensive.

The best book I have found on the subject at the moment is:

"Practical Digital Image Processing"
by Rhys Lewis
ISBN: 0-13-683525-2
Published by Ellis Horwood (c)1990.

Likewise I am trying to get a fair sample of programs that demonstrate
Image Processing techniques. So far I have 'xv', and 'khoros' for Unix.
'Dcview 2.1' for the IBM PC, and various related smatterings of C code
to help describe topics like, contrasting, dithering, image enhancement
via convolution etc.

If anyone could kindly supply me with some public domain software
pertinent to this area, or better still if they could tell me where I am
most likely to find it on the AARNET (Internet). If I can I would prefer
source code in C or Turbo Pascal that includes some Image Processing
code/algorithms, that I can readily alter/manipulate for the purposes of
demonstration it would be most helpful.

All the above information will contribute to my post-graduate studies,
and will be liberally used in my paper, and seminar on the subject.

          Thanks in advance Vance Ashlin
          Diploma Advanced Computing

Thinking is dangerous, subversive, mindnumbing and leads you astray

ashlin@ironbark.ucnv.edu.au
i880429@redgum.ucnv.edu.au

It wasn't Jesus who changed the rules of the game (see quote above),
it was Paul.

Cheers,
Kent

Howdy all,

Hmm... 48 bit aye?
Well, it beats a 32-bit design for thee sake of ellegance.
48 bit means 16 bits per primary colour.
The 2^48 nr of colours is a bit misleading. It makes more sense to see it
as 65536 possible shades of pure red.
This might actually make some sense, since 256 shades of red (24 bit colours) 
may produce visible 'jumps' in intensity.
Then again, a byte per primary colour for each pixel is the most elegant way 
of doing colour graphics, because it leaves ya such a tidy (and fast) program
code.

	Take care,

		Bram

Hello, All!

  I apologize, I haven't published my astro FTP list since March.
  Now I haven't tested all the sites included into the list.  I
  would notified all the people, you have stored some older issues
  of my, there are now lots of changes.  Many sites have gone away:
  They either do not exist any more or all the astro stuff have
  removed.
 
  The job keep this list is very hard, so all the notes and informat-
  ion of changes, new sites, new contents etc. is welcome.

  I would thank all the net people who give me information for the
  newest version.

  					regards,

					Veikko Makela

The peaceful attempt to serve the warrant was met with gunfire. Due process
was not served because the Branch Davidians wanted it that way.

*You* think on that.

--
"Milk is for babies; when you're a man, you drink beer" - Arnold

[discussion of pros and cons deleted]

Could someone give me the references to the LLNL proposal?  I've been meaning
to track it down in conjuntion with something I'm working on.  It's not 
directly related to space stations, but I think many of the principles will 
carry over.

The problem is that you imagine him inside this huge wall, unable
to see reality. While he imagines the same about you. Clearly we
have a case where relativity plays a big role concerning looking
at opposite frames of reality.

Cheers,
Kent

Okay, I see smilies, so this isn't supposed to be a serious post.
On the other hand, I would suppose it does has some motivation behind
it. Apparently the idea is to poke fun at religion, but there is 
presumably some sort of reasoning behind it. As an argument, this 
statement is worthless. Presuming the Qur'an is a perfect religious 
text (whatever that might be) there is still plenty of room for 
disagreement about its implications for issues far from essentials.

I've already responded to the question of how a judgment might be made
between two people who in fact _do_ disagree about Islam, which doesn't
presume anything about the Qur'an other than its having sufficient
clarity for all important disputes about the basic principles of
Islam. This hardly constitutes a claim that no two people could have
disagreements about _all_ issues relevant to Islam.

I think the main reason is that in the good old hacker days of the young(er)
Gates' and Jobs' of the world, the computer was not as widespread a
phenomenom as it is now.  With the increased popularity of the PC
come a plethora of mundane business uses which required more practical
minded and narrower-focused programmers.

Why be a hacker when you can get a good job programming databases or
programs for accountants?  Basically, the yuppies caught up and
disciplined the hackers, and molded them in their own image.

I do not understand what you are saying here.  What is improved, what 
is Significant, and what does this have to do with carrying more 
equipment on a servicing mission?  Also, as implied by other posters, why 
do you need to boost the orbit on this mission anyway?  Maybe you have 
something here, but could you please clarify it for us on the net? 

From what I've heard, the motors are fine - it is one of the two 
sets of electronics that control the motors that needs a fix.  The 
motors and electronics are separate pieces of hardware.  I expect 
to be corrected if I'm wrong on this. 

Same old bullshit. Not being given to delusions and wishful thinking
I do not have the option of either loving or obeying that which I have
so reason to believe.

More bullshit. I assure you in my misguided youth I made a sincere effort.
It was very painful being a rational person raised in Christian home.
Many others could tell the same story. You choose not to believe anyone's
experience which contradicts your smug theories.

No wonder that we don't see any detail for this claim. It is good to
remember that you have answered the statement that you are a theist
by another correspondent with that you are not a member of a denomination.
It is either stupidity or an attempt at a trick answer. Not unlike the
rest of your arguments.
 
I am extremely wary of the way you use words. Like in this case, there
are broader definitions of gods used by persons who are considered by
themselves and others theists. I have pointed to that in my post. You
use one of them.
 
Your use of definitions seems to rest on the assumption: because my
moral is objective/absolute or the other buzz words you are so fond
of, everybody will know it, and there is no need to define it more
exactly.
 
And as a user has shown recently, the easiest way to dispell you is
to ask you for definitions.
 
: Has anyone else experienced anything like this?  If this just means that I
: need to replace the screen then I guess I'll have to but I thought that the
: "death" of my LCD screen would be a little less dramatic when it eventually
: happened.  I didn't want to take it in to be repaired before I asked on the
: net about this because I already know what they'll say: "Yep, you gotta have
: this replaced and it's gonna cost you $???."

: I've only had the computer for about 21 months.

"Only"?!?  That's a long time! (echoing above posting)  The way the market
is going nowadays, your machine's obsolete two weeks before you buy it. 
Sounds like you'll have to sink *some* money into it for repair, but
that's sometimes necessary for equipment.

: Is that a reasonable life
: cycle for a LCD display?

I think 21 months with nothing wrong until now is quite reasonable.  If
you had bought a Compaq or Toshiba, you might have reasonably expected the
machine to last longer before something went wrong; but that's a moot
point, perhaps.

sandy santra                     _\/_              trevor@netcom.com
berkeley, california              /\               trevor@well.sf.ca.us

[stuff deleted]
I have a similiar question relating to anti-alaising that my friend has asked
to have posted to the more knowledgable in this group. I'm sorry if this is
an FAQ.

   "What anti-alaising methods do Persistance Of Vision & Polyray use?"

Thank you in advance. You can either email me or reply (or flame me if it is
an FAQ :-) )

What makes you say that the guns were illegal?? I understand that the BD's
had a valid Class III Federal Firearms Permit, which would allow them to
have pretty much anything short of a howitzer legally.

I'm sure you are not.   After the "San Francisco" Earthquake 
a couple of years ago, there was a flurry of traffic on 
talk.religion.misc about how this was the result of the 
notorious homo- this that and t'other in the City.

The fact that the Earthquake was actually down the road in
Santa Cruz/Watsonville didn't seem to phase them any.

Does anyone know if the source is available to create FLI
or FLC animations? I would ideally like DLL's for Windows
but would settle for C source.  I've heard they might be 
available on Amiga forums somewhere.  The libraries
currently distributed by Autodesk, AAWIN, AAPLAY, do NOT
have FLI creation capability, only playback.

Any pointers would be appreciated, thanks!

   I was wondering if anyone knows of a graphics package for the PC that
   will do compositing of a series of pictures?

   What I mean by "compositing" is, say I have a live video clip
   (digitized) panning around a living room, and a computer-generated
   bird flying around the screen.  I want to combine these two series of
   pictures so that everywhere where the bird frames are black, I want
   the living room picture to show through.  Yes, I realize I can do this
   with a genlock, and I do own a genlock, but I want to be able to do
   manual compositing also.  It's ok if I have to composite one frame at
   a time; I assumed I'd have to do that anyway.  But being able to
   composite a series of frames would be even better.

   I've looked around and I haven't found a PC package that will perform
   this.  Help, please!

If you can get the live animation and the computer-generated animation
into AutoDesk Animator .FLI or .FLC format, AutoDesk Animator will do
this for you.  It can take one animation, make a certain color
"clear", and overlay it over another animation.  I do not have a way
right now to convert .AVI or .MPG files to animator files.  Animator
will also import a series of .GIF files to create an animation, so if
your video capture stuff can create this is might work.

If what was being discussed could be established or disproven by 
experiment and observation, then I would agree with you, Chris.  
The burden of proof would belong to Bill. But the source
document for Christianity, the Bible, simply assumes God exists
and makes it clear (to us Calvinists, anyway :-)) that when a person
is in fellowship with God, it is because God has taken the initiative
in revealing Himself to that person. So from a Christian point of
view, the burden of proof belongs to God. Bill is being consistent
with what the Bible teaches in relating his own experience with God,
but it would be an error on his part to assume that there is a direct,
causal relationship between his testimony and someone else becoming
convinced that God exists and that he needs to be reconciled to God.

Please excuse me if I missed an earlier part of this thread
in which Bill came across like an egotist. What I saw was simply
obedience to the scriptural command to "always be ready
to give a reason for the joy that is in you".  

This response originally fell into a bit bucket.  I'm reposting it
just so Bill doesn't think I'm ignoring him.

Bill,

I'm sorry to have been busy lately and only just be getting around to
this.

Apparently you have some fundamental confusions about atheism; I think
many of these are well addressed in the famous FAQ.  Your generalisms
are then misplaced -- atheism needn't imply materialism, or the lack
of an absolute moral system.  However, I do tend to materialism and
don't believe in absolute morality, so I'll answer your questions.

An atheist judges value in the same way that a theist does: according
to a personal understanding of morality.  That I don't believe in an
absolute one doesn't mean that I don't have one.  I'm just explicit,
as in the line of postings you followed up, that when I express
judgment on a moral issue I am basing my judgment on my own code
rather than claiming that it is in some absolute sense good or bad.
My moral code is not particular different from that of others around
me, be they Christians, Muslims, or atheists.  So when I say that I
object to genocide, I'm not expressing anything particularly out of
line with what my society holds.

If your were to ask why I think morality exists and has the form it
does, my answer would be mechanistic to your taste -- that a moral
code is a prerequisite for a functioning society, and that humanity
probably evolved morality as we know it as part of the evolution of
our ability to exist in large societies, thereby achieving
considerable survival advantages.  You'd probably say that God just
made the rules.  Neither of us can convince the other, but we share a
common understanding about many moral issues.  You think you get it
from your religion, I think I get it (and you get it) from early
childhood teaching.

I think you've been reading the wrong sort of comic books, but in
prying through the gobbledygook I basically agree with what you're
saying.  I do believe that my mental reactions to stimuli such as "God
commanded the genocide of the Canaanites" is mechanistic, but of
course I think that's true of you as well.  My reaction has little to
do with whether God exists or even with whether I think he does, but
if a god existed who commanded genocide, I could not consider him
good, which is supposedly an attribute of God.

Hmm.  Yes, I think some heavy FAQ-reading would do you some good.  I
have as much place discussing values etc. as any other person.  In
fact, I can actually accomplish something in such a discussion, by
framing the questions in terms of reason: for instance, it is clear
that in an environment where neighboring tribes periodically attempt
to wipe each other out based on imagined divine commands, then the
quality of life will be generally poor, so a system that fosters
coexistence is superior, if quality of life is an agreed goal.  An
absolutist, on the other hand, can only thump those portions of a
Bible they happen to agree with, and say "this is good", even if the
act in question is unequivocally bad by the standards of everyone in
the discussion.  The attempt to define someone or a group of people as
"excluded from discussion", such that they "cannot participate", and
their opinions given "no weight whatsoever" is the lowest form or
reasoning (ad hominem/poisoning the well), and presumably the resort
of someone who can't rationally defend their own ideas of right,
wrong, and the Bible.
-- 

Sorry if this is a FAQ but :

    "Where can I get a 286 (16 bit) version of POV-Ray ? "

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I need the 286 version since Turbo Pascal won't let me run a 32 bit
program from within my program.  Any info on this would also be a
great help.

                                Thanks,

                                    Byron.

bkidd@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au
B.Kidd@cam.compserv.utas.edu.au
-- 

A harmonic of the Earth's gravitational field?  What IS a harmonic of the
Earth's gravitational field?

14:1 resonance with WHAT?  It's not like there's any wavelength or frequency
to the Earth's gravitational field.  Now, there' might be some interesting
interactions with the Moon's tidal effect--is that what you're talking about?

What are the physics of the situation?  The only way I can see gravitational
effects being useful in adding energy to an object orbiting Earth is some
sort of interaction with the moon.

pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney) writes...

Never lived out in the country I see. 4 years ago I had a place
where I had to carry in propane every month, hook the bottle up 
to copper line, to supply both the stove, and a type of water-
heater called a flash-heater. A flash heater has a pilot lamp.

Here's the point. If the Davidians had their propane tanks hooked 
up to copper (or some such) lines, run through the ceiling spaces
-- when the FBI started wrecking the place, they could easily have
ruptured the lines. Which then would start spreading out through
the overhead. And since it was a country home, it wasn't necessarily
built with non-flamable insulation. 

It's probably more plausible than anything else, that the fire started
mainly as a result of accident -- or willful negligence on the part of
the FBI, which should have known better (ie. manslaughter).

It's certain that if the tanks hadn't been used that day -- the fire
wouldn't have started.

How about the GNU people, handing out very good, free software?  I've also
distributed two decent-sized programs myself, the Go player Fumiko (at
ftp.u.washington.edu) and the Genetic Neural Network Programmer CEREBRUM
(somewhere out there).

I've only had time to write these programs because of scholarships and
grants.  The intended benefit to society, or a loophole in the system? 

Ah, so you admit newborns are innocent?  Then you cannot say _everyone_ is a
sinner.

About the only way top get out of this one is to claim that a newborn is a
sinner despite having not committed any sins, which is rather odd.
--

Another one rescued from the bit bucket...

Over the years the furor over this book has been discussed on a.a. and
elsewhere on the net.  Generally, the discussion comes down to the
contention on the one hand that TSV contains such blood libel against
Islam as to merit, if not death, than at least banning and probably
some sort of punishment; and on the other that Rushdie, particularly
as a non-muslim in a Western country, had every right to write and
publish whatever he chose, regardless of whether some muslims find it
offensive, without fear of persecution or death.  

I am naturally inclined to the latter position, but find myself in an
interesting position, because I think this is a fine book, only
incidentally concerned with Islam, and moreover I'm damned if I can
find anything malevolently offensive in it.

Over the years, when I have made this point, various primarily muslim
posters have responded, saying that yes indeed they have read the book
and had called it such things as "filth and lies", "I would rank
Rushdie's book with Hitler's Mein Kempf or worse", and so on.
Unfortunately, these comments are usually generalities, and attempts
to follow up by requesting explanations for what specifically is so
offensive have met either with stony silence, more generalizations, or
inaccurate or out-of-context references to the book [which lead me to
believe that few of them have actually read it].  Corrections and
attempts to discuss the text in context have been ignored.

Anyway, since I seem to be the only one following this particular line
of discussion, I wonder how many of the rest of the readership have
read this book?  What are your thoughts on it?  
-- 

To the media, "religion" and "cult" have about the same relative
connotations as "government" and "terrorist group".

[This is SWF in another indirect post via Dan].

predicitions
if you
have some
many types of
happen again
may predict
reaction

There are several problems here. First, you are discussing only
experimental procedures. Observational procedures are also useful.  The
main criterion is attempting to verify an idea by using it to make
prediction about as-yet unmade observations. The observations could be
the result of an experiment, or they could be obsevations of activity
occuring spontaneossly in nature, or they could even be observations of
the lasting results of events long past. All that matters is that the
observations be *new*.  This is what prediction is about in science -
it is
*not* about predicting the future except in this very restricted
sense.

Secondly, repeatability can also take many forms.  It is really just
the
requirement that independent observers be able to verify the results.
The
observation of a fossil is 'repeatable', since any qualified observer
may
look at it (this is why the specimens are reqtined in a museum).  Also,
there is the implicit prediction that future fossil finds will
correspond
to the current one.  New fossils are found often enough that this is
tested regularly.  Many times a new fossil actually falsifies some
conclusion made on the basis of previous fossils.

Unfortunately for you, the models that were falsified have alway been
peripheral to the model of evolution we now have.  (For instance, the
front legs of Tyrannosaurus rex turned out to have tremendous muscles,
rather than being weakly endowed as previously believed).

So, in fact, histoircal science findings *are* repeatable in the
necessary sense.  Just becuase you cannot go out and repeat the
original
event does *not* make it impossible to make valid observations.

[This is not to say that biologists would not go coo-coo if extra-
terrestrial life were discovered - that could make the determination
of the process of abiogenesis relatively easy].

--
sarima@teradata.com                     (formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com

can someone tell me where i could find ansi or ascii pics?

I already found the gopher ascii pics.

thanks

Richard Mancsuo

Getting wierd again?

Okay we have figure out that a mission specifically to Pluto is to large and to
expensive..

Okay what about launching one probe with multiple parts.. Kind of liek the old
MIRV principle of old Cold War Days. 
Basically what I mean is design a mother ship that has piggy backed probes for
different missions,namely different planets. Each probe would be tied in with
the mother ship (or earth as the case may be).. This is good when and if we go
for Mars (the MArs mission can act as either Mother ship or relay point for the
probes.

Also the mother ship would be powered (if not the Mars Mission) by a normal
propulsion, but also a solar sail (main reason for solar sail race is to see
what can be done and autmoated?) the sail would get the probes to were they
needed.. I know the asteroid/meteor clouds (and such) might get in the way of a 
Sail??

Main reasonf ro mother ship idea is to make it more economoical to send
multiple probes/mission/satellites/exploreres to different places and cut
costs..
The probes could do fly bys or ?? we shall see...

No, the sky does not, at this time, belong to anyone.  Ownership is necessary
to the definition because someone has to have the authority to decide if the
action was good or bad.  If neither you or I own a brick wall, then I can't
unilaterally declare that spraypainting my name on it is right, and you don't
have the authority to declare that it is wrong.  The owner may find it artistic
or she may be call the police.

(this applies to the argument on bright satellites more than street lights)

It's vandalism because many people -- power companies -- do maliciously waste light. 

"maliciously" implies evil intent.  The lighting companies aren't going out
of their way to spoil the sky.  They just don't care.

It is the responsibility of the customer to choose the most efficient hardware.
If that's what your city will buy, that's what the lighting company will sell.
Write a letter to city hall.

Please note that I'm not defending light pollution.  The orignial focus of 
this thread was space based light sources.

Last-modified: 16 May 1993

New since version of 2 May 1993:
  * Added info on ImageViewer for NeXT.

drawings.

X Windows:

MS-DOS:

OS/2:

    PMView 0.85: JPEG/GIF/BMP/Targa/PCX viewer.  GIF viewing very fast,
    JPEG viewing roughly the same speed as the above two programs.  Has
    image manipulation & slideshow functions.  Shareware, $20.

Amiga:

Atari ST:

NeXT:

ImageViewer is a PD utility that displays images and can do some format
conversions.  The current version reads JPEG but does not write it.
ImageViewer is available from the standard NeXT archives at
sonata.cc.purdue.edu and cs.orst.edu, somewhere in /pub/next (both are
currently being re-organized, so it's hard to point to specific
sub-directories).  Note that there is an older version floating around that
does not support JPEG.

sent.

	M_]C_X ...

	M:'-I ...

at best.)

Could someone please post a list of good three-D modelers that will
run on SPARC stations; preferably cheap.  Thanks

Hi Folks,

              Last year America bought two  "Hall Generators" which are
used as thrusters for space vehicles from former USSR,if I could recall
correctly these devices were sent to JPL,Pasadena labs for testing and
evaluation.
     
              I am just curious to know  how these devices work and what
what principle is involved .what became of them.There was also some
controversy that the Russian actually cheated,sold inferior devices and
not the one they use in there space vehicles.

Any info will be appreciated...
  ok   {                         Thank{ in advance...
Tamoor A Zaidi
Lockheed Commercial Aircraft Center
Norton AFB,San Bernardino

: Has anyone seen hallusions?  You can buy a poster of them and it looks like a simple dot pattern
: when you first look at it but if you focus behind it you see a 3d picture.  I'm looking for
: a program that generates these pictures.  There's a company in Texas that makes them but I 
: doubt if they're giving the program away.  Any help would be appreciated. 
: 
There is a program included with the book "Virtual Reality Playhouse" which
will let you generate these pictures.  It's not a very powerful program but
it does an acceptable job for experimentation purposes.

Davis Nicoll sez;

I'd buy that for two reasons.  The tubes for TV's and radios (if you can
still find them) are usually 3x or more expensive than comparable transistors.

Also, ask any electric-guitar enthusiast which type of amp they prefer, and
they'll tell you tube-type, since tubes have lower distortion and noise
than transistors.  'Course, most of your electric guitar types just say
"Tubes sound better, dude." :-)

Also, transistors have the advantage in both waste-heat and energy-use,
mainly because of the heaters on the cathodes of the tubes.

-Tommy Mac

...

I had an ehum, interesting experience with the Rosicrucians, or at
least Rosicrucians of some sort last Sunday. They had advertised that
they were holding a lecture titled The Graal of the King -- the room
of the heart (which rhymes in Swedish). Out of curiosity, I went to
the lecture.

There were four people there apart from the two Rosicrucians, one
woman and two men apart from me. The Rosicrucians were male, both of
them. First one of them told us about the Rosicrucians and Lectorium
Rosicrucianum, which was founded in Harlem, NL in 1925. He read
straight from a piece of paper, which I at that point was because he
lacked experience in talking in front of people, but the other guy
read, too, and he was used to holding speeches, I could tell. The
first guy also said that the R:s are a mystical Christian order, and
that they base their teachings on the teachings of the Kathars
(English?) from the thirteenth century.

The other guy took over, reading from his piece of paper in a
fairy-tale teller's voice. What he said sounded like a load of crap to
me. Of course that might be because I am unenlightened or something.
What made me a bit suspicious, was the way they first said that we all
contained something divine, and could find our way back to divinity,
then that we couldn't become divine as the persons we are currently,
but if we worked really hard we would reach eternal bliss. Maybe I've
read too much RAW, but it sounded very much like the things he talks
about in the chapter _How to robotize people and brainwash your
friends_ in _Prometheus rising_. 

It was very interesting to watch the two Rosicrucians. The one holding
the actual lecture, obviously was top dog, and the other one seemed to
be a true believer. I got the impression that the top dog had more
distance to the faith than the true believer, that he used it to gain
power and admiration. He spoke like a fairy-tale teller, whenever he
remembered. ;)

The information brochure is at home. Should you want their address,
please e-mail me.
--Ceci

I'm replying to someone who asked for information on space camp.
I have a brochure that has all different schedules. What age, what 
level and what program do you want to know the schedule of? Most of the 
missions are 5 to 8 days long. The address for Huntsville is:

Alabama Space Science
Exhibit Commission
U.S. Space and Rocket Center
One Tranquility Base, Huntsville, AL 35807

- Jennifer

at least be honest.  velcro (tm) dates from the 40's.  i have doubts
about everything listed above.  just because it was developed in the
space age, doesn't mean it was a space spin-off.  

[re. Conner's questioning of the blissful afterlife as a reason why many
joined the early Xian church]

Do you mean Hyam Maccoby's _The Mythmaker_?

no its not.

its due to the fact that there are two issues here: Religion and religion.

religion is personal belief system.
Religion is a memetic virus.

people loudly proclaiming their beliefs are crossing the border from
religion -> Religion.  people that want to "save" others are firmly
entrenched in Religion ("memoids").

rule #1 of not practicing Religion is to shut the fuck up, unless
you discuss it politely.  this means that the motive behind the conversation
is not only your self-gratifying wish to spread the word.  

religion is something that ultimately comes from within a person, and
reflects their value judgements.  Religion is something that is
contracted from others and does not reflect the persons value judgements
(other than perhaps "i think i'll be brainwashed today").

Religion is a drug...

i believe you can discuss religion.  however, the post that started this
off was not intented as discussion, it was more a proclamation of
someones Religion.

	1) They are religious parodies, NOT atheistic paradies.

	2) Please substantiate that they are parodies, and are outrageous.
	   Specifically, why is the IUP any more outrageous than many 
	   religions?

---

Indeed, the sky doesn't look much like a black body if you look carefully
enough; in particular, its temperature at radio frequencies is quite a
bit higher than you would see from a black body.  Morgan&Gordon's fat
"Communications Satellite Handbook" has a graph of sky temperature vs.
wavelength, in fact, for communications design.

However, in terms of energy content, the RF frequencies are negligible.
For thermal purposes, at very large distances from the Sun the sky
looks like a black body at 3.5K (Allen, "Astrophysical Quantities").
I haven't found a number for non-large distances, since solar radiation
tends to be something you can't just ignore :-), but M&G says "about 4K"
in a brief discussion of why solar radiation dominates the problem.

Hmm.  The police strategy of bursting in with weapons drawn, clearly marked as
officers and yelling "Police" repeatedly.  This is used every day to bust drug
houses.  The idea is to awe the suspects into submission with surprise and
display of firepowere in order to avoid a gun fight.  As for not knocking, it's
a sad necessity in many cases since the suspects will attempt to escape or even
fight.  Usually this strategy works; if it didn't, then it wouldn't be used so
commonly, now would it?

Whether or not it was appropriate to use this strategy on the BD is not my
point, since I don't think any of us have enough information to make a clear
judgement on this issue.

I merely point out that it IS a valid strategy which is used every day.
Furthermore, we don't know of any substitute strategy capable of apprehending
potentially dangerous and armed suspects.  Do you suggest that the police
always knock with guns holstered and never arrest any suspects until they have
been allowed to inspect the officers's badges?  Just what should the police do
when apprehending potentially dangerous and armed suspects?  How far can they
reasonably go to identiy themselves?  What do you suggest they can do which
can't be faked by the "competition"?

Even if you've got deadly enemies who may pretend to be cops, that's not an
excuse to murder police.  In the case of the BD's, there was almost definitely
at most the paranoid delusion of deadly enimies who would pretend to be cops.

I'm curious.  Are you referring to Koresh as "the Man"?  Why the 
upper case M?                           
                                                         
I never claimed to be a spokesman for "most people".  It is an assumption
on my part that people with normal values and morality would be more 
concerned with human life than sermon structure.  
                                      
Are burning children part of this very special event?      
                                          
What about those who do not know the Master's voice?  Does the Master
not care about them?  Eloquent, but corrupt, preaching may be of little
difference to you.  But I suspect it made a big difference to all of
those who died in the compound.

They looked unto him, and were lightened:
	and their faces were not ashamed.

I'm afraid I was not able to find the GIFs... is the list 
updated weekly, perhaps, or am I just missing something?

I guess I'm delving into a religious language area.  What exactly is morality 
or morals?  I never thought of eating meat to be moral or immoral, but I think
it could be.  How do we differentiate between not doing something because it is
a personal choice or preference and not doing something because we see it as 
immoral?  Do we fall to what the basis of these morals are?

Also, consensus positions fall to a might makes right.  Or, as you brought out,
if whatever is right is what is societally mandated then whoever is in control
at the time makes what is right

MC
MAC
--

I guess it's  kind of an aesthetics argument.

I can see the solar arrays being expensive,  and  there could be
contingencies where you would be throwing away brand new
solar cells,   but  it seems so cheap compared toa shuttle
mission, i wouldn't think they would bother.

I'm wondering if "vandalize" is the proper word to use in this situation.  My
dictionary defines "vandalism" as "the willful or malicious destructuion of 
public or private property, especially of anything beautiful or artisitc." I
would agree the sky is beautiful, but not that it is public or private property.

I personally prefer natural skies, far from city lights and sans aircraft.  
However, there is also something to be said for being able to look up into the
sky and see a satellite.  Many people get a real kick out of it, especially if
they haven't seen one before.   

: The same works for the horrors of history.  To claim that Christianity
: had little to do with the Crusades or the Inquisition is to deny the
: awesome power that comes from faith in an absolute.  What it seems you
: are doing twisting the reasonable statement that religion was never
: the solitary cause of any evil into the unreasonable statement that
: religion has had no evil impacts on history.  That is absurd.

Scott,

Until this paragraph I would willingly amend my earlier statements,
since your point(s) are well made and generally accurate. This last
part though slips into hyperbole. Since I've discussed my objections to
such generalizations before, I really don't feel I need to do it
again. If you haven't seen those posts, ask Maddi, she saves
everything I write.

[ NOTE: talk.origins removed from crossposting, as this had no business
  going there in the first place. ]

      No, but you're not achieving anything either. If you don't want to
argue the point you're stating, why do you bother stating it?

      No. Read the (alt.atheism) FAQ to find out why.

      Well enough; if I feel interested, I might even listen.

      I won't; the task is impossible, and I don't have to do it in the
first place. Why should I even bother to change or disprove your beliefs?

      - Mats "Strong apatheist?" Andtbacka

How difficult would it be to do a solar sail mission to say mercury?

Not much has been there and there is a 23?KM/s delta v to eat off.

could a  solar sail, handle say adiscovery bus, and drop it into
mercury orbit,  good enough for rockets to put it into some
form of polar orbit?

                                     USA

           CA 91605.

SET FREE

Atheist stickers, T-shirts and books.

Write to:  Set Free, P.O. Box 3065-192, Garden Grove, CA 92642.

                                   Germany

IBKA e.V.

"Davy"
atoms". 

"VALIS"

 MD, USA

GEORGE H. SMITH

"Atheism: The Case Against God", Prometheus Books
Describes the positions of atheism, theism and agnosticism.  Reviews many 
of the arguments used in favour of the existence of God.  Concludes with an
assessment of the impact of God on people's lives.

   help

I have been looking around some Ftp sites and cannot find one with any good
GIF files. Could someone please tell me of some Ftp sites which do posses
goods GIFS and a wide range.

Please EMAIL me at the address above.

Thanks

Regarding the feasability of retrieving the HST for repair and
relaunching it:

(Caution: speculation mode engaged)
There is another consideration that hasn't been mentioned yet.
I expect that retrieving HST would involve 'damaging' it considerably in
order to return it to its cradle in the cargo bay.  Most of the deployed
items (antennas and, especially, the solar arays) probably are not
retractable into their fully stowed position, even by hand.  They would
have to be removed by the astronauts.  (The only advantage that this
might yield is that we could put new panels on that don't 'ring' due
to thermal cycle stresses...)

I also expect that, as has been discussed, the landing loads on the
HST optics structure is a big issue (but that the reentry loads are
much less so.)  Can the moveable optical components even be re-caged
(I assume that they were caged for launch)?

Michael Corvin 	      				zwork@starfighter.den.mmc.com
GN&C R&D					Martin Marietta Astronautics
===============    My views, not Martin Marietta's   ========================

Sorry Malcolm, but I rather believe Jesus than you.

Cheers,
Kent

#|> #|> 
#|> #|> #This is quite different from saying "Employing force on other people
#|> #|> #is immoral, period.   Unfortunately, from time to time we are obliged
#|> #|> #to do this immoral thing for reasons of self-preservation, and so
#|> #|> #we have to bear the moral consequences of that.
#|> #|> 
#|> #|> Since both statements, to all intents and purposes, say effectively
#|> #|> the same thing, 
#|> #
#|> #Are you serious?  Two statements, one of which says that use of force
#|> #in the given situation is moral, and the other of which says it is
#|> #not moral "say effectively the same thing?"
#|> 
#|> Yes, when you tag on the "Unfortunately, ...", then to all intents and
#|> purposes you are saying the same thing.
#
#Then delete the "unfortunately".   Now tell me that the two statement
#say effectively the same thing.
#
#And to save everyone a couple of trips round this loop, please notice
#that we are only obliged to use force to preserve self.   We can choose
#*not* to preserve self, which is the point of pacifism.

O.K., got you.  I concede your point, though the word "obliged" strongly
implies that one must sometimes use force.  A further rephrasing would
give you the distinction you mention, however.  If I have you right, a pacifist
would not even go on to say, "unfortunately,etc."

#|> #Would you say this of any two statements, one saying "X is moral" and
#|> #the other saying "X is immoral?"   How would you decided when two 
#|> #statements "X is moral" "X is immoral" actually conflict, and when
#|> #they "say effectively the same thing".
#|> 
#|> What they prescribe that one should do is a pretty good indicator.
#
#And in this case they don't prescribe the same things, so.....

Yes, fair enough, though why confuse things by saying that "one is 
somtimes obliged" if the real meaning is that "one is never obliged".

#|> #|>                  and lead one to do precisely the same thing, then 
#|> #|> either both statements are doublespeak, or none.
#|> #
#|> #They might lead you to do the same thing, but the difference is what
#|> #motivates pacifism so they obviously don't lead pacifists to to the
#|> #same thing.
#|> 
#|> That's not true.  You could formulate a pragmatic belief in minimum 
#|> force and still be a pacifist.  If the minimum is 0, great  - but one is
#|> always trying to get as close to 0 force as possible under that belief.
#|> Not the same as 'force is immoral, period', but still tending to pacifism.
#
#If you don't think the use of force is immoral, why minimise its use?

If you don't think that it is "immoral, period.".   

     I think it's known, but it's neat.

     Can it be extended to 3D?

Well, let me see if I can explain it.  It's similar to collecting coins,
or stamps, or campaign buttons, or coke bottles, or juke boxes, or model
trains, or just about anything else that is collected (and just about
everything is collected).  In all cases, you might consider it something
of an aberration; I mean, what purpose does it serve?  Not much really;
it's just a hobby.  The collector yearns for diversity (not much use in
having TWO of the same thing, except for trading/selling it), historical
significance (this was the thingy used by so-and-so), technical significance
(this is the only one that does such-and-such like this; this is the first
one to do it this way), rarity, and so on.

Some people use their collections, other people do not.  As you state, you
use your collection.  In one sense, this diminishes the value of your
collection as the items suffer wear and exposure.  In another sense, it
can enhance your own enjoyment of your collection.  Some people collect
firearms that they do not use; other people use some or all of the firearms
they collect.  It's just personal preference.

Oops, 'personal preference' ... I guess we're not supposed to have that any
more, are we?

stuff deleted - but message is:
: 
 
: 
: >He is God.
: 
: In other words, the right of might.
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: >God granted you the gift of life whether you were sinner or saint.
: 
: In other words, he can do it, he did it, and your in no position to
: argue about it.
:  
: >one that must be killed by Him.  Note:  I say that God and God alone is
: >worthy to be Judge, Jury and Executioner.  We are not called to carry out
: >such duties because we are not worthy.
:  
: In other words, you better do what this God wants you to do, or else!
: 
: >|> Who is god to impose its rules on us ? Who can tell if god is REALLY so
: 
: 
: >God is God.  Who are we to question the Creator?  If you doubt God's doing
: >in certain situations, do you claim to know a better solution?  Would you
: >be playing the role of God?
: 
: In other words, its his game, he made the rules, and if you know whats
: good for you you'll play his game his way.
: 

 Careful there, you make God out to be some spoiled little deity that when
he can't have his way takes his ball and goes home.

Now that you mention it....

Naw... Can't be right, makes sense. 

Hello,
i'm interested in those devices too.
Could also send me your suggestions.
Thank in advance.
Regards.
-- 

Bill, I think you have a misunderstanding about atheism. Lack of 
belief in God does not directly imply lack of understanding
transcendental values. I hope you would accept the fact that 
for instance Buddhists appreciate issues related to non-empirical
reasoning without the need to automatically believe in theism.

I think reading a couple of books related to Buddhism might 
revise and fine tune your understanding of non-Christian systems.

Cheers,
Kent

Please help.

I have an IBM-compatible notebook computer with an LCD VGA screen.  While I
was working with it this morning, the screen started to flicker a little,
which I thought was odd since I do use a surge-protector for my computer and
all peripherals.  It only did this for a second and then stopped.

I left the room for several minutes and, when I returned, the screen was
completely dim, not blank, but very very dim.  The contrast slider still
worked so that I could adjust it to where I could *faintly* make out what
was on the screen but the brightness slider had absolutely *no* effect.

I was plugged-in at the time (i.e., not using the battery) but I still
tried switching the battery, changing the power-saver features, etc., etc.,
all to no avail.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this?  If this just means that I
need to replace the screen then I guess I'll have to but I thought that the
"death" of my LCD screen would be a little less dramatic when it eventually
happened.  I didn't want to take it in to be repaired before I asked on the
net about this because I already know what they'll say: "Yep, you gotta have
this replaced and it's gonna cost you $???."

I've only had the computer for about 21 months.  Is that a reasonable life
cycle for a LCD display?  Oh, I guess I ought to give specifics here: the
brand is Compudyne (Is this a reputable company?), it's a 386SX @ 20 MHz.
I forget the model number exactly and I was too ticked off to write it down
before coming in to work today.

If anyone can help me, PLEASE give me any advice you might have.  I'm not
opposed to having it replaced, but I'd rather not if it's not absolutely
necessary.  If you wouldn't mind, please e-mail me at mike@mik.uky.edu
but if you'd rather post I'll be checking back here in a couple of days.

BTW, if the answer to this question is already in a FAQ somewhere, feel
free to flame away but I would ask that you also include the location and
name of the FAQ if you don't mind.

Thanks in advance for any help...

: I've only had the computer for about 21 months.  Is that a reasonable life

= In article <1993Apr21.231552.24869@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>,
= 
= Hmm, it seems that this is the core of Christianity then, you 
= have to feel guilty, and then there's this single personality
= that will save you from this universal guilt feeling.
= 
= Brian, I will tell you a secret, I don't feel guilty at all,
= I do mistakes, and I regret them, however I've never had this
= huge guilt feeling hanging over my shoulder.

I will tell you another secret.  I get this burning sensation in my
hand every time I hold it over a candle.  The pain does not fill my entire
body, and I'm told the longer I hold it here, the less it'll hurt (it'll
eventually burn up the nerves, or so I'm told).  So I suppose I should just
ignore the pain, because holding my hand over the candle is something I just
want to do. I've got the right, don't I?

Your body feels pain to let you know something is wrong.  It's your body's
alarm system informing you that something needs your attention.

A fever tells you that you are sick, and need some sort of care.

Guilt can be seen as that "emotional or spiritual" alarm, just informing you
that there is something that you've done that "requires your attention".

It doesn't require a "personality type" to become a believer.  It requires
someone who is willing to listen to themselves, their body & soul.  

= All I know is that I don't know everything. And frankly speaking
= I don't care, life is fun anyway. I recognize that I'm not 
= perfect, but that does not hinder me from have a healthy
= and inspiring life.

For several years all I knew is I really liked dropping 'cid (LSD).
Frankly speaking, I didn't really care.  It was fun anyway.

It didn't matter that every child my wife and I want to have are at a 
*tremendously* greater risk of serious birth defects.

For several years all I knew is I really liked having sex with as many women
as I could convice.  Frankly speaking, I didn't care.  

I didn't care that I was putting each one of them at risk (as well as their
future partners).

It didn't matter that for the first decade of my marriage, my wife and I
will have the worry that possibly that last sneeze meant something *much*
worse than a cold.

= 
= There are humans that subscribe to the same notion. The nice
= thing is that when you finally shake off this huge burden,
= the shoulders feel far more relaxed!

The nice thing about pain killers, if you take enough, you won't care about 
the fever, shortness of breath or pain.

Not useful unless you've got some truly wonderful propulsion system for
the mother ship that can't be applied to the probes.  Otherwise it's
better to simply launch the probes independently.  The outer planets
are scattered widely across a two-dimensional solar system, and going
to one is seldom helpful in going to the next one.  Uranus is *not* on
the way to Neptune.  Don't judge interplanetary trajectories in general
by what the Voyagers did:  they exploited a lineup that occurs only
every couple of centuries, and even so Voyager 2 took a rather indirect
route to Neptune.

Solar sails are pretty useless in the outer solar system.  They're also
very slow, unless you assume quite advanced versions.

If by chance you answered my request for NEO Asteroids in the last two days
please send them to me directly. I by mistake deleted instead of read
all the space-request messages .

Thanks and sorry.

Harry G. Osoff
Science & Technology Editor
Access News Network

	xli, xloadimage or ImageMagick - export.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.0.12] /contrib

Why shouldn't I mind? It sounds as if you are proceeding with just
the sort of obfuscation you have accused me of. I always preceeded
my statements with "it is my understanding that..." Now, I have made
my claim clear with regard to the issue of both the Twelve Imams and 
with Khomeini's supposed claim of infalibility. After hearing your
seemingly more knowledgable claim that Khomeini made no such claim
regarding himself, I have withdrawn that portion of my statement
regarding that claim. However, I have received _no_ such response
regarding the infallibility of the Twelve Imams. There is nothing
obfuscationist about my claims, which are always made clearly.
 
I have received no such clear response regarding the Twelve Imams
but rather abstruse references to unusual metaphysical natures and 
other such opaque "concepts" often used by people to camoflage the 
baselessness of their positions, particularly in matters of theology.
These are just the sorts of "concepts" used by Christian churches
the perverting of their religion. 

Alaikum Wassalam,

That's fascinating.  I take it that you're expressing skepticism
at the idea that those ignorant savages could have influenced
the Constitution of the people who stole their continent.  You
could be right, but it sounds plausible to me.  Is there any
reason that you dismiss it out-of-hand?  Here's some more:

   Recent scholarship has shown that in the mid-1700s Indians were not
   only invited to participate in the deliberations of our "founding
   fathers," but that the Great Binding Law of the Iroquois Confederacy
   arguably became the single most important model for the 1754 Albany
   Plan of Union, and later the Articles of Confederation and the
   Constitution.  That this would be absent from our school texts,
   and from history, and from media is not surprising given the devotion
   Americans feel to our founding myth: Great men gathered to express
   a new vision that has withstood the test of time.  If it were
   revealed that Indians had a role in it, imagine the blow to the
   American psyche.
   ...
      By 1754, when most of these men and others gathered to creat the
   Albany Plan of Union, the first try at confederation, they invited
   forty-two members of the Iroquois Grand Council to serve as advisors
   on confederate structures.  Benjamin Franklin freely acknowledged
   his interest in the Iroquois achievement in a famous speech at
   Albany Congress: "It would be a strange thing...if six nations
   of ignorant savages[sic] should be capable of forming such a union
   and be able to execute it in such a manner that it has subsisted
   for ages and appears indissoluble, and yet that a like union should
   be impractical for ten or a dozen English colonies."
      According to Grinde, Franklin convened meetings of Iroquois chiefs
   and congressional delegates in order to "hammer out a plan that he
   acknowedged to be similar to the Iroquois Confederacy."

Grinde is Professor Donald Grinde,Jr., of the University of California
at Riverside whose book _The Iroquois and the Founding Fathers of the
American Nation_ addresses this issue.

Um, Kent... just what *have* you been doing with his wife?!?  ;-D

Why not design the solar arrays to be detachable.  if the shuttle is going
to retunr the HST,  what bother are some arrays.  just fit them with a quick release.

one  space walk,  or use the second canadarm to remove the arrays.

bobbe@vice (Robert Beauchaine;6086;59-323;LP=A;YAyG) Pontificated: 

I would guess that you either mean that you don't have a problem
swearing aligance to a non-existant being or that you are being
deliberatily dense (considering what group this is).  

It doesn't come "quite naturally" to nonbelievers such as myself
or even to followers of other religions.  Would you say it would
be quite natural if you were forced to swear by "Allah" or
"Budda"?  

Did that FAQ ever got modified to re-define strong atheists as not those who
assert the nonexistence of God, but as those who assert that they BELIEVE in 
the nonexistence of God?  There was a thread on this earlier, but I didn't get
the outcome...

-- Adam "No Nickname" Cooper

Thank you, Steve.  It is refreshing to have someone accuse me of being
a Christian.  I only hope enough evidence can be garnered to get a
conviction.  I am not certain what you mean by the "fundy" part as the
term fundamentalist has a wide variety of uses.  If you refer to
those who actually believe Jesus is the Messiah and Son of God and
wish to follow in his way, then I plead guilty.  But what does it
matter what I think.  The Roman circus is over.  The lions have been
satisfied -- for now.  The Emperor, after the long and gruelling
struggle, sensed the crowd was tiring and gave thumbs down.

With respect to my previous comments about David Koresh, I urge you
to re-examine my previous posts.  I believe you mistakenly assume
that defense of Koresh' right to his own personal beliefs and his
right to express them to others implies agreement with Koresh'
theology.  Actually I understand little about the details of Branch-
Davidian teachings and regret so many are hung-up on that aspect
of the tragic events of the past few days.

Nor do I think Koresh' sex life should be of any interest to the
federal government.  Of course Hillary says he had been molesting
infants so it must be true even though such allegations do not
fall under the jurisdiction of the federal government; they are
state and local matters and have been thoroughly reviewed at the
local level by proper authorities with no successful charge having
ever been levied against him.  Under American law, he was innocent
as Americans are presumed innocent until proven guilty.  At least
that's how it is suppposed to be.  But he was demonized and propa-
gandized against by a powerful machine to have him appear as a
lustful beast and therefore deserving of every ill the fates might
bring upon him.  

But evidence trickles in that the twenty-one children, who left the
building in the early days of the siege,  were carefully examined
by qualified authorities for evidence of physical or sexual abuse
and none was found.  DeGuerin, one of the attorneys who met with
Davidians several times before the conflagration, reported that
the children seemed well adjusted and showed no sign of abuse.

Ultimately, Steve, what I think about the heart of David Koresh
is quite unimportant.  Today he is in the benevolent hands of a
most wise and merciful judge who will one day surely judge us all.
So I withhold any judgment of David Koresh and defer to the One
who has all knowledge.  Meanwhile, let's clean up the mess left
on earth and keep this from happening again by sending a strong
message to the government to respect the inalienable rights of the
people it serves.

--Joe Gaut

	Let me guess: you're not a psycho-analyst in real life, but you play 
one on alt.atheism. Right?

	Is ESP something you have been given by God?
---

There are JPEG viewers that are windows based and therefore need no hardware
specific drivers beyond those provided in windows. I got mine from the Library
of Congress in connection with their online exhibit of books from the Vatican
library. See a previous message in this newgroup about that.

: I cant get through to the author of rtrace. His site is inaccessible
: can he upload the new version somewhere else please?

Hi folks,

I'm doing an animated film on new methodes in loom
research (You know, the thing they make cloth with.)
and need a model of a loom. The format should be 
in ascii faceted geometry and fairly straight
forward to figure out. Any help or pointers would be
greatly appreciated.

-Thanks

Rick Boykin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Rick Boykin (rboykin@cscsparc.larc.nasa.gov)
    Computer Sciences Corporation, Hampton, VA.

    "So maybe I could be a fly
     and feed arachnid as I die"     -Tom Marshall

If the Good is undefined (undefinable?) but you require of everyone that
they know innately what is right, you are back to subjectivism.
 
Ditto here.  An evaluative statement implies a value judgement on the
part of the person making it.
 
Pretty perceptive, that Prof. Flew.
 
Please explain how this helps.  I don't see your argument.
 
This makes no sense either.  Flew is arguing that this is where the
objectivist winds up, not the subjectivist.  Furthermore, the nihilists
believed in nothing *except* science, materialism, revolution, and the
People.
 
And also not the position of the subjectivist, as has been pointed out
to you already by others.  Ditch the strawman, already, and see my reply
to Mike Cobb's root message in the thread Societal Basis for Morality.

If you've got a good propulsion system that's not useful for deceleration,
sure you can use chemical rockets for that part... but even just doing the
deceleration chemically is a major headache.  We're talking seriously high
cruising velocities; taking the velocity down nearly to zero for a Pluto
orbit isn't easy with chemical fuels.

Incidentally, solar sails are not going to be suitable as the acceleration
system for something like this.  They don't go anywhere quickly.  (I speak
as head of mission planning for the Canadian Solar Sail Project, although
that is more or less an honorary title right now because CSSP is dormant.)
They can't fly a mission like this unless you start talking about very
advanced systems that drop in very close to the Sun first.

On 26-Apr-93 in Re: What part of "No" don't..
Please provide evidence that having a moment of silence for a student
who died tragically costs taxpayers money.

You don't *need* to, but it's desirable.  HST, like all satellites in
low Earth orbit, is gradually losing altitude due to air drag.  It was
deployed in the highest orbit the shuttle could reach, for that reason.
It needs occasional reboosting or it will eventually reenter.  (It has
no propulsion system of its own.)  This is an excellent opportunity,
given that there may not be another visit for several years.

 Let me get this right - sorry, try again.  Let me get this straight - 
well maybe that too is a poor choice of words - someone might think 
I'm pushing a gay agenda.  How about:  let me try to understand this 
by re-phrasing it as an extreme.  I, as a minority of one, have no right 
to a beautiful world.  You, on the other hand have the right to make an 
ugly one because you presume to speak for all the rest.  And I cannot 
complain.  Curious. 

.. 

And do you want everyone to do as you wish (insist on putting something 
up that will impact everyone for selfish reasons) _without_ any legislation?  
And no one else can even object?  Somehow I think this whole shoving 
contest has gotten way off the track.  I'm ready to let this thread 
die a quick and merciful death. 

Howdy...  I think you would be interested in Infini-D 2.5 for the Mac.  There
is no DOS or Windows version.  It's quite an amazing program.

"Some" of the features:

*  Bevel Text
*  Timeline based animation sequencer
*  Realtime bounding box preview
*  Object linking
*  Phong Shading
*  Ray Tracing
*  Bounding Box shading
*  Wireframe shading
*  Ghourad shading
*  Flat shading
*  Anti-aliasing (none, low, medium, high)
*  Environment maps
*  Quicktime support (wrap a QT movie around an object)
*  Procedural surfaces
*  Composed surfaces (for layering surfaces)
*  Alpha channel support
*  Import EPS, DXF, and Swivel 3D files
*  Export DXF and Swivel 3D files
*  Spline based animation
*  Animation assistant (for creating smooth movements and other stuff)
*  Object morphing (surfaces and bevels morph too)

... And lots more that I can't remember right now...

Anyway, it's not as expensive as some of the other animation/rendering
packages.  I think you can get it for around $699 from MacWarehouse.
They also have educational discounts...

Well, hope that helps a bit.

See ya...

I'm told that VRrend386 is available on the internet. I wanted to know where it is.

Raoul

Well, where is he?  Another false Messiah shot down in flames.

Matthew 24:4
   "Watch out that no one deceives you.  For many will come in my
    name, claiming, 'I am the Christ', and will deceive many."

Matthew 24:23
   "At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!'
    or 'There he is!' do not believe it.  For false Christs and 
    false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles
    to deceive even the elect - if that were possible.  See, I have
    told you ahead of time."

Do we listen?  Sadly, not all of us do.

Peace be with you, and condolences to the families of those lost at
Waco.

Malcolm Lee  

Correction, and some more info: The Kaliningrad that Mr. Larrison
writes about is indeed near Moscow. I've read that it may also be known by
the name Podlipk, and is a short distance from Zvezdny Gorodok (Star 
City) and the Cosmonaut Training Center there. I read that the Tsniimach
(Central Scientific Research Institute of Machine Building, est. 1961) 
Enterprise was also responsible for creating the NKIK (Ground Command and 
Measurement Complex) including the Kaliningrad Flight Control Center
which has controlled all Soviet/Russian manned spaceflights since its
completion in 1973. However, it appears to have been a part of the 
Ministry of General Machine Building which was not part of the military
(Ministry of Defense) but would have been a part of the military-industrial
complex. 

FREE-ENERGY TECHNOLOGY
                       by Robert E. McElwaine, Physicist
          
               Ninety to a hundred years ago, everybody "knew" that a 
          heavier-than-air machine could not possibly fly.  It would 
          violate the "laws" of physics.  All of the "experts" and 
          "authorities" said so. 
          
               For example, Simon Newcomb declared in 1901:  "The 
          demonstration that no possible combination of known 
          substances, known forms of machinery and known forms of 
          force, can be united in a practical machine by which man 
          shall fly long distances through the air, seems to the writer 
          as complete as it is possible for the demonstration of any 
          physical fact to be." 
          
               Fortunately, a few SMART people such as the Wright 
          Brothers did NOT accept such pronouncements as the final 
          word.  Now we take airplanes for granted, (except when they 
          crash). 
          
               Today, orthodox physicists and other "scientists" are 
          saying similar things against several kinds of 'Free Energy' 
          Technologies, using negative terms such as "pseudo-science" 
          and "perpetual motion", and citing so-called "laws" which 
          assert that "energy cannot be created or destroyed" ("1st law 
          of thermodynamics") and "there is always a decrease in useful 
          energy" ("2nd law of thermodynamics").  The physicists do not 
          know how to do certain things, so they ARROGANTLY declare 
          that those things cannot be done.  Such PRINCIPLES OF 
          IMPOTENCE are COMMON in orthodox modern "science" and help to 
          cover up INCONSISTENCIES and CONTRADICTIONS in orthodox 
          modern theories. 
          
               Free Energy Inventions are devices which can tap a 
          seemingly UNLIMITED supply of energy from the universe, with-
          OUT burning any kind of fuel, making them the PERFECT 
          SOLUTION to the world-wide energy crisis and its associated 
          pollution, degradation, and depletion of the environment. 
          
               Most Free Energy Devices probably do not create energy, 
          but rather tap into EXISTING natural energy sources by 
          various forms of induction.  UNLIKE solar or wind devices, 
          they need little or no energy storage capacity, because they 
          can tap as much energy as needed WHEN needed.  Solar energy 
          has the DIS-advantage that the sun is often blocked by 
          clouds, trees, buildings, or the earth itself, or is reduced 
          by haze or smog or by thick atmosphere at low altitudes and 
          high latitudes.  Likewise, wind speed is WIDELY VARIABLE and 
          often non-existent.  Neither solar nor wind power are 
          suitable to directly power cars and airplanes.  Properly 
          designed Free Energy Devices do NOT have such limitations. 
          
               For example, at least three U.S. patents (#3,811,058, 
          #3,879,622, and #4,151,431) have so far been awarded for 
          motors that run EXCLUSIVELY on permanent MAGNETS, seemingly 
          tapping into energy circulating through the earth's magnetic 
          field.  The first two require a feedback network in order to 
          be self-running.  The third one, as described in detail in 
          "Science & Mechanics" magazine, Spring 1980, ("Amazing 
          Magnet-Powered Motor", by Jorma Hyypia, pages 45-48, 114-117, 
          and front cover), requires critical sizes, shapes, 
          orientations, and spacings of magnets, but NO feedback.  Such 
          a motor could drive an electric generator or reversible 
          heatpump in one's home, YEAR ROUND, FOR FREE.  [Complete 
          descriptive copies of U.S. patents are $3.00 each from the 
          U.S. Patent Office, 2021 Jefferson Davis Hwy., Arlington, VA  
          22202; correct 7-digit patent number required.  Or try 
          getting copies of BOTH the article AND the Patents via your 
          local public or university library's inter-library loan 
          dept..] 
          
               A second type of free-energy device, such as the 'Gray 
          Motor' (U.S. Patent #3,890,548), the 'Tesla Coil', and the 
          motor of inventor Joseph Newman [see SCIENCE, 2-10-84, pages 
          571-2.], taps ELECTRO-MAGNETIC energy by INDUCTION from 
          'EARTH RESONANCE' (about 12 cycles per second plus 
          harmonics).  They typically have a 'SPARK GAP' in the circuit 
          which serves to SYNCHRONIZE the energy in the coils with the 
          energy being tapped.  It is important that the total 
          'inductance' and 'capacitance' of the Device combine to 
          'RESONATE' at the same frequency as 'EARTH RESONANCE' in 
          order to maximize the power output.  This output can also be 
          increased by centering the SPARK GAP at the 'NEUTRAL CENTER' 
          of a strong U-shaped permanent magnet.  In the case of a 
          Tesla Coil, slipping a 'TOROID CHOKE COIL' around the 
          secondary coil will enhance output power.  ["Earth Energy: 
          Fuelless Propulsion & Power Systems", by John Bigelow, 1976, 
          Health Research, P.O. Box 70, Mokelumne Hill, CA  95245.] 
          
               During the 1930's, an Austrian civil engineer named 
          Viktor Schauberger invented and partially developed an 
          'IMPLOSION TURBINE' (German name, 'ZOKWENDLE'), after 
          analyzing erosion, and lack of erosion, in differently shaped 
          waterways, and developing sophisticated mathematical 
          equations to explain it.  As described in the book "A 
          Breakthrough to New Free-Energy Sources", by Dan A. Davidson, 
          1977, water is pumped by an IMPELLER pump through a 
          LOGARITHMIC-SPIRAL-shaped coil of tubing until it reaches a 
          CRITICAL VELOCITY.  The water then IMPLODES, no longer 
          touching the inside walls of the tubing, and drives the pump, 
          which then converts the pump's motor into an ELECTRIC 
          GENERATOR.  The device seems to be tapping energy from that 
          of the earth's rotation, via the 'Coriolis effect', LIKE A 
          TORNADO.  [ It can also NEUTRALIZE GRAVITY! ] 
          
               A fourth type of Free Energy Device is the 'McClintock 
          Air Motor' (U.S. Patent #2,982,261), which is a cross between 
          a diesel engine (it has three cylinders with a compression 
          ratio of 27 to 1) and a rotary engine (with solar and 
          planetary gears).  It burns NO FUEL, but becomes self-running 
          by driving its own air compressor.  This engine also 
          generates a lot of heat, which could be used to heat 
          buildings; and its very HIGH TORQUE makes it ideal for large 
          trucks, preventing their slowing down when climbing hills.  
          [David McClintock is also the REAL original Inventor of the 
          automatic transmission, differential, and 4-wheel drive.] 
          
               Crystals may someday be used to supply energy, as shown 
          in the Star Trek shows, perhaps by inserting each one between 
          metal capacitor plates and bombarding it with a beam of 
          particles from a small radioactive source like that used in a 
          common household smoke detector. 
          
               One other energy source should be mentioned here, 
          despite the fact that it does not fit the definition of Free 
          Energy.  A Bulgarian-born American Physicist named Joseph 
          Maglich has invented and partially developed an atomic FUSION 
          reactor which he calls 'Migma', which uses NON-radioactive 
          deuterium as a fuel [available in nearly UNLIMITED quantities 
          from sea water], does NOT produce radioactive waste, can be 
          converted DIRECTLY into electricity (with-OUT energy-wasting 
          steam turbines), and can be constructed small enough to power 
          a house or large enough to power a city.  And UNLIKE the 
          "Tokamaks" and laser fusion MONSTROSITIES that we read about, 
          Migma WORKS, already producing at least three watts of power 
          for every watt put in.  ["New Times" (U.S. version), 6-26-78, 
          pages 32-40.] 
          
               And then there are the 'cold fusion' experiments that 
          have been in the news lately, originally conducted by 
          University of Utah researchers B. Stanley Pons and Martin 
          Fleischmann.  Some U.S. Navy researchers at the China Lake 
          Naval Weapons Center in California, under the direction of 
          chemist Melvin Miles, finally took the trouble to collect the 
          bubbles coming from such an apparatus, had them analyzed with 
          mass-spectrometry techniques, and found HELIUM 4, which 
          PROVES that atomic FUSION did indeed take place, and enough 
          of it to explain the excess heat generated. 
          
               There are GOOD INDICATIONS that the two so-called "laws" 
          of thermodynamics are NOT so "absolute".  For example, the 
          late Physicist Dewey B. Larson developed a comprehensive 
          calls the 'Reciprocal System', (which he describes in detail 
          in several books such as "Nothing But Motion" (1979) and "The 
          Universe of Motion" (1984)), in which the physical universe 
          has TWO DISTINCT HALVES, the material half and an anti-matter 
          half, with a CONTINUOUS CYCLE of matter and energy passing 
          between them, with-OUT the "heat death" predicted by 
          thermodynamic "laws".  His Theory explains the universe MUCH 
          BETTER than modern orthodox theories, including phenomena 
          that orthodox physicists and astronomers are still scratching 
          their heads about, and is SELF-CONSISTENT in every way.  Some 
          Free Energy Devices might be tapping into that energy flow, 
          seemingly converting "low-quality energy" into "high-quality 
          energy". 
          
               Also, certain religious organizations such as 'Sant Mat' 
          and 'Eckankar' teach their Members that the physical universe 
          is only the LOWEST of at least a DOZEN major levels of 
          existence, like parallel universes, or analogous to TV 
          channels, as described in books like "The Path of the 
          Masters", by Dr. Julian Johnson, 1939, and "Eckankar: The Key 
          to Secret Worlds", by Sri Paul Twitchell, 1969.  For example, 
          the next level up from the physical universe is commonly 
          called the 'Astral Plane'.  Long-time Members of these groups 
          have learned to 'Soul Travel' into these higher worlds and 
          report on conditions there.  It seems plausible that energy 
          could flow down from these higher levels into the physical 
          universe, or be created at the boundary between them, given 
          the right configuration of matter to channel it.  This is 
          supported by many successful laboratory-controlled 
          experiments in PSYCHO-KINESIS throughout the world, such as 
          those described in the book "Psychic Discoveries Behind the 
          Iron Curtain". 
          
               In terms of economics, the market has FAILED.  Inventors 
          do not have enough money and other resources to fully develop 
          and mass-produce Free Energy Equipment, and the conventional 
          energy producer$ have no desire to do so because of their 
          VE$TED INTERE$T$.  The government is needed to intervene.  If 
          the government does not intervene, then the total supply of 
          energy resources from the earth will continue to decline and 
          will soon run out, prices for energy will increase, and 
          pollution and its harmful effects (including the 'GREENHOUSE 
          EFFECT', acid rain, smog, radioactive contamination, oil 
          spills, rape of the land by strip mining, etc.) will continue 
          to increase. 
          
               The government should SUBSIDIZE research and development 
          of Free Energy by Inventors and universities, subsidize 
          private production (until the producers can make it on their 
          own), and subsidize consumption by low-income consumers of 
          Free Energy Hardware. 
          
               The long-range effects of such government intervention 
          would be wide-spread and profound.  The quantity of energy 
          demanded from conventional energy producer$ (coal mining 
          companie$, oil companie$ and countries, electric utilitie$, 
          etc.) would drop to near zero, forcing their employees to 
          seek work elsewhere.  Energy resources (coal, uranium, oil, 
          and gas) would be left in the ground.  Prices for 
          conventional energy supplies would also drop to near zero, 
          while the price of Free Energy Equipment would start out high 
          but drop as supply increases (as happened with VCR's, 
          personal computers, etc.).  Costs of producing products that 
          require large quantities of energy to produce would decrease, 
          along with their prices to consumers.  Consumers would be 
          able to realize the "opportunity costs" of paying electric 
          utility bills or buying home heating fuel.  Tourism would 
          benefit and increase because travelers would not have to 
          spend their money for gasoline for their cars.  Government 
          tax revenue from gasoline and other fuels would have to be 
          obtained in some other way.  AND ENERGY COULD NO LONGER BE 
          USED AS A MOTIVE OR EXCUSE FOR MAKING WAR. 
          
               Many conventional energy producer$ would go out of 
          business, but society as a whole, and the earth's environment 
          and ecosystems, would benefit greatly.  It is the People, 
          that government should serve, rather than the big 
          corporation$ and bank$. 
          
          please consult my CITED SOURCES (patents, articles, books). 

Please excuse the length of this post, but for personal reasons, 
I must go on at some length.

    [...more deleted...]

    Perhaps it would be instructive to see what my original post had
to say:

     [followed by my signature]

    I was extremely careful in this posting not to say anything which
was not factual.  I made no judgement about Hitching or the quality of 
the quotation attributed to him.  I have not read any of the books 
listed (although I did glimpse briefly at "Earth Magic", I saw nothing 
that I would care to comment on).  It was solely in response to an
inquiry by Warren about Hitching, and your assertion that he is a
paleontologist.  I do not know whether he is or is not a paleontologist.
I do not claim to know anything about him, except this listing of his
publications.

    However, I get the decided impression that I am being included
among the "Branch Atheists" on the basis of this post.  If that 
impression is mistaken, please let me know.  Otherwise, I should let
you know that the implications are very offensive to me, and I 
would certainly appreciate a clarification of your posting.

I wasn't sure if this was the right newsgroup to post this to, but I guess
the misc is there for a reason.  Here goes...  I am getting married in June to 
a devout (Wisconsin Synod) Lutheran.  I would classify myself as a strong 
agnostic/weak athiest.  This has been a a subject of many discussions between
us and is really our only real obstacle.  We don't have any real difficulties 
with the religious differences yet, but I expect they will pop up when we have 
children.  I have agreed to raise the
children "nominally" Lutheran.  That is, Lutheran traditions, but trying to
keep an open mind.  I am not sure if this is even possible though.  I feel that
that the worst quality of being devoutly religous is the lack of an open mind.

     Anyway, I guess I'll get on with my question.  Is anyone in the same 
situation and can give some suggestions as to how to deal with this?  We've 
taken the attitude so far of just talking about it a lot and not letting 
anything get bottled up inside.  Sometimes I get the feeling we're making this 
much bigger than it actually is.  Any comments would be greatly appreciated.  
Also, please e-mail responses since I don't get a chance to read this group
often.  :-(

Robert MacElwaine sez (again!);

OK, I got it.  Actually, these message of MacElwaine's are coded messages.
Read only the caps, and it all comes clear!:

Maybe it's a message telling us what actually happened to the legendary
Larson.  Perhaps it's a warning that one should not expend too much
effort trying to counter MacElwaine's postings.  Who can be sure? :-)

-Tommy Mac

I think to some extent this is a case of stooping to their level.  You assume
that the general public "can't handle the truth" and then, based on this 
assumption, go for the fluff arguments.  Then someone, who can understand a
good argument, comes along and asks "why don't you just develop the spinoffs?"
or "why can't we just get our spinoffs from some other program, like the
military?"  There are some good arguments for space development without relying
on its side effects.  I'm not ignoring the value of spinoffs.  I simply think
that the general public deserves more credit than you give them.

And if you're going to use spinoffs you better make darn sure you are right.
Teflon has been around since before NASA.  As I understand it, Velcro was 
conceptualized by a french doctor who went walking in the woods and took the
trouble to wonder how burrs stick to your clothes.  Certainly velcro was 
available on hiking equipment by the early to mid sixties.  I would need to 
see some good evidence before I believe that either of these would not be here
today without NASA.

Well, yes.  This is the real mystery of the matter, and why I am rather
dubious of a lot of the source theories.

There are a number of places where the Masoretic Text (MT) of the OT is
obscure and presumably corrupted.  These are reproduced exactly from copy to
copy.  The DSS tend to reflect the same "errors".  This would appear to tell
us that, at least from some point, people began to copy the texts very
exactingly and mechanically.  The problem is, we don't know what they did
before that.  But it seems as though accurate transmission begins at the
point at which the texts are perceived as texts.  They may be added to (and
in some situations, such as the end of Mark, material is lost), but for the
most part there are no substantial changes to the existing text.

You're basically trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.  Some people
like to use the game of "telephone" as a metaphor for the transmission of
the texts.  This clearly wrong.  The texts are transmitted accurately.

I'm not sure if this will help you, but the (local) interstellar
radiation field has been measured and modeled by various groups.  If I
remember things correctly, the models involved contributions from three
different BB sources, so there's no obvious "temperature" of background
radiation in our local area.  However, the following references give the
interstellar radiation density as a function of wavelength, and you can
integrate and average in an appropriate manner to get an "effective"
temperature if you like:

Witt and Johnson (1973) Astrophys. J. 181, 363 - 368
Henry et al. (1980) Astrophys. J. 239, 859 - 866
Mathis et al. (1983) Astron. Astrophys. 128, 212 - 229

As you can see, the references are out of date, but they might get you
started.

Some more references:

S.H. Dole

"Habitable Planets for Man"
Blaisdell Publishing Company, New York (1964)

I don't know if this can be found any more.

M.J. Fogg

"Extra-Solar Planetary Systems: A Microcomputer Simulation"
J. Brit. Interplanetary. Soc., _38_, 501-514, (1985)

"An Estimate of the Prevalence of Biocompatible and Habitable Planets"
J. Brit. Interplanetary. Soc., _45_, 3-12, (1992)

The first paper includes a detailed discussion of the physical conditions
for habitability.

I worked in support for a while at a company and we had problems with several
Toshiba 1600's in a short space of time. They were all around 2 years old.
Some screens went completely (as above), others were just "dodgy".

This happened to about 5 or 6 out of, maybe 100. They were fairly reliable up
to then and I don't think it was a special problem with Tosh's (no link to the
company). So I would think that 21 months may not be unreasonable - just
unlucky!

Regards,

Kate.  :)|

Speaking of which, a paper was out a few years ago about a
weather sat imaging a lunar eclipse -- are those images
uploaded anywhere?  I could dig out the reference if there's interest.

Shag

-- 

I didn't think the bi-stem design was used so much for the retrieval as
for the ability to launch in a tight (size) STS envelope.  This is my own 
guess, based on similar designs flown on other large STS-launched s/c 
(GRO, UARS).  Also, there _might_ be some consideration given to mass 
requirements (bi-stems weight less than conventional S/A).  Finally, 
the HST arrays _do_ have the ability to be detached--remember, they're 
going to be replaced with new arrays.

However, as an ACS guy who's seen his branch management pull their
collective hair out over HST, I would voice a hearty 'yea' to using
conventional arrays over bi-stems, whenever possible.  No half hertz
flexible modes, no thermal snap, no problem.

RAPTURE - OCTOBER 28, 1992

		WHAT TO DO IN CASE YOU MISS THE RAPTURE

I. STAY CALM AND DO NOT PANIC

	Your natural reaction once you realize what has just occurred is to
panic.  But to do so is absolutely useless now.  If you had wanted to get right
with God before the rapture, you could have, but you chose to wait.  Now your 
only chance is to stay on this earth and to endure to the end of the 
Tribulation.  "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be 
saved." - Matthew 24:13

II. REALIZE YOU ARE NOW LIVING DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION

	The Great Tribulation is a seven year period starting from the time of
the rapture until Christ's second coming.  Also know as "the time of Jacob's
(Israel's) trouble" (Jere 30:7) and "Daniel's Seventieth Week" (Dan 9), this 
period will be unparalleled in trouble and horror.

III. GATHER AS MANY BIBLES AS YOU CAN AND HIDE THEM

	Soon after the Antichrist becomes the leader of the European Community 
(the revived Roman Empire), Bibles will be confiscated and owning a Bible will
be tantamount to treason.  The Bible, however, will be your most valuable 
possession during the Tribulation.

IV. READ THE BIBLE LIKE YOU HAVE NEVER READ IT BEFORE IN YOUR LIFE

	Since all of your Bibles may be confiscated, even if you are careful, it
is imperative that you read the Word until you memorize whole passages and can
quote them.  It is especially important to read Daniel, Luke 21, Matthew 24, 
Revelation, and Amos, for these books describe the events you can expect to
unfold before you.  

V. PRAY LIKE YOU HAVE NEVER PRAYED BEFORE IN YOUR LIFE

	Pray until the power of God comes strongly upon you - pray and pray 
and pray.  Only by reading the Word and praying will you gain the spiritual 
strength to be able to withstand the torture you may have to endure for the
sake of Christ.  

VI. DO NOT TAKE THE MARK AT ANY COST - EVEN IN FIT MEANS YOU AND YOUR LOVED
ONES DIE AS MARTYRS

	After the Antichrist becomes the leader of the European Community, he
will institute a world economic system, designed so that you cannot buy, sell,
or eat unless you take his mark or the number of his name.  Money will be
useless.  "And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and 
slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that
no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, 
or the number of his name.  Here is wisdom.  Let him who has understanding
calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number
is 666" - Revelation 13:16-18.  
	The Antichrist will implement the greatest slaughter in all of 
humanity.  Think of the various ways people have been tortured and killed
in the past, such as the Holocaust.
[or maybe the crusades? -M]
You cannot even imagine the horror that will take place under the Antichrist's
rule; it will be much worse than anything in history (Matt 24:21) "...I saw
under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and
for the testimony which they held.  And a white robe was given to each of 
them: and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, 
until both the number of the fellow servants and their brethren, who would be
killed as they were, was completed." Revelation 6:9, 11.
	His targets will be Jews and Christians who do not worship his image
or take the mark on their forehead or right hadn/ "...And I saw the souls of 
those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of 
God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark
on their foreheads or on the hands." - Revelation 20:4.  He will use every
form of torture and humiliation in order to force you to renounce Christ.  Nor
will he hesitate to use your loved ones against you, even your children, 
torturing and killing them in front of you so that you will be tempted to take
the mark.  
	If you take the mark or worship the Antichrist or his image, however,
you will be consigned to the second death, which is the Lake of Fire.
[Sung about so eloquently by Johnny Cash...-M]
You cannot be redeemed.  It is better to endure torture for a short while and
gain eternal life then [sic] to endure eternal torment in the Ring^H^H^H^H Lake
of Fire.  "...If anyone worships the Beast and his image, and receives his 
mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink the wine of
the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His 
indignation.  An [sic] he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the 
presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." -Revelation 
14:9-10 

[and probably in the presence of season-ticket holders; special hats given to
the first 5,000 at the stadium --M] 

VII. SET A PLAN IN MOTION FOR SURVIVAL

	Although you may not be able to hide from the Antichrist's government
until the end of the Tribulation, all of the time you gain in hiding is 
important for your spiritual growth and strengthening, since only those who are
extremely strong in Christ can suffer and die for His sake.
	The first thing to do is move out of the city and into a rural or
mountainous area, for the Antichrist's control will come last to the least
populated areas.  Take a good radio or TV with you so that you can stay 
attuned to events and discern the time schedule of the Tribulation.
["As you can see on the weather map, heavy currents of Tribulation will sweep
into our area by daybreak.  Expect delays on I-95 outbound, and perhaps school
closings" --M] 
Store water and food, because you will not be able to purchase anything without
the mark.  Water in lakes and streams will be polluted by radioactive waste
from nuclear warfare and will eventually turn into blood.
[Get a good water filter. --M]
Bring different types of clothing for all seasons, as well as flashlights,
batteries, generators, and First Aid supplies.  In short, learn how to 
survive and live off the land as the pioneers did.

VIII. TRUST NO ONE
	
	There will be secret agents everywhere, spying for the Antichrist's
government.  Be on the lookout.
[Perot supporters take note --M]

IX. WATCH FOR THE ANTICHRIST

	It is important to realize who the Antichrist is and what he is up to,
for he will deceive many into thinking that he is a great world leader who will
bring peace and prosperity to a world hungry for it.  We can infer from Daniel 
11 certain characteristics of this man.  Popular during the first three and a
half years of the Tribulation, he will dominate the airwaves.  He will be 
physically appealing, highly intelligent, with Christ-like charisma and 
personality.  An international politician, military tactician and economic
expert, his word will be peace; he will make a treaty with the Jews, which
he will break after three and a half years.  He will have such supernatural 
power that a mortal wound to his head will be healed.  Even the very elect will
be deceived.  If you do not pray and read the Bible, you too will be deceived.
[Dominate the airwaves?  Perhaps Howard Stern or Rush Limbaugh...-M]
	The antichrist will have a companion, the False Prohphet [sic], who
will make an image in the likeness of the Antichrist and cause it to speak.  
All who refuse to worhsip [sic] the image will be killed.  The final three and
a half years will be absolutely insane, with demonized spirits everywhere.

X. DO NOT GIVE UP HOPE!

	The seven years of Tribulation will end with the triumphant return of
Christ.  The Antichrist will be defeated.  Be steadfast and endure, and you 
will be rewarded greatly in Heaven.  
	Start reading the Bible and praying fervently now.  The salvation of 
your sould depends upon it.  Determine that, come what may, you will not take
the mark or worship the Antichrist.  You still have a chance to be saved or
remain saved, but this time you will have to be "faithful unto death."

	May God find you ready in the hour of his glorious return!

******************************************************************************
Mike Cluff				*  "Christianity is Stupid.
v22964qs@ubvms or mike%luick@ubvms	*   Give up." -Negativland
UB Language Perception Laboratory	*  

I'm sure there are many people who work with neural networks and
read this newsgroup. Please tell Kevin what you've achieved, and
what you expect.

Indeed. I think dualism is a non-solution, or, as Dennett recently
put it, a dead horse. 

Petri

If I may offer a constructive criticism, perhaps you should decide if you
love vehicles or the use they are put to. I, myself, think the F-86 is
a beautiful aircraft, but rest assured, I wouldn't even think of flying
it in combat today. Most of us want access to space and judge vehicles
on how they perform.

Not to this degree.

Why?

Your wrong. The DC approach is very tollerent of failure. It also has
the advantage of far greater reliability do to its reusable nature (Shuttle
isn't reusable, it's salvagable).

The flip over happens at a very low speed, not supersonic. If the DC-X
shows the flip over works, it will work unless the laws of physics change.

The final DC-1 will have fully intact abort throughout the entire flight
envelop. Upon re-entry for example, it can loose about 80% of available
thrust and still land safely.

Everything can suffer from catastrophic failure but that's not the same
thing. Shuttle simply isn't a fault tolerent design, SSTO is.

You don't put your patients in conditions where there is no way out. You
wouldn't for example, give a patient a drug and not monitor them for
harmful side effects would you?

You are very much in the minority. If the DC series fails to make orbit, it
will still be a very worthwhile effort. It will show us EXACTLY what we do
need to do to build SSTO.

Again, refering to the DC-1, it will provide fully intact abort theroughout
the flight envelop. Shuttle doesn't. DC is fault tollerent, Shuttle isn't.

Not true. Build a passenger pallet (a fairly easy thing to do) and it will
carry passengers.

I would suggest you talk to the DC-X crew themselves. Their original
schedule had an operational DC-1 flying in 96.

Your ignoring the dammage it does. Mannes space has a reputation for being
unreliable and hugely expensive. Shuttle supporters only make it easy for
opponents of manned space to kill it.

The only way to prove those things is to build it.

  Allen

And maybe they do.  But without somebody to set the time that doesn't
do them any good.

Humph.  Deleted there was my list of non-religious reasons one might
want a moment of silence for a dead classmate.

Maybe everyone doesn't want to be silent for teachers to give their
pompous non-religious speeches in assembly.  I know I didn't.  So?

Please provide documentation that opposing only things that are
actively religious (e.g. actual prayer, "Amen" after a moment of
silence, mandatory classes in religion) and not things that have
possible but uncertain religious implications (e.g. moments of
silence, having the Bible on the shelves during reading period) is not
a way to prevent a state religion.

Does anyone know where I could get some source code for a GIF viewer on a PC.
It doesn't have to be fancy, it would be best if it were written in C to 
display gif pictures on a VGA screen.  I was hoping to get it for free
from an FTP site, but I haven't been able to find it yet.

[ ..see previous article on this debate for the rests.. ]

I can see XV-3.00 agree with my view in cases you don't -- even I say
my personal opinion (as above), it doesn't mean that it is not most
obvious thing.
Please, if you use my previous writings as contradicting argument,
please do read them -- you have not saw them at all; you just
refered to text from which I wrote 'something' -- and you make
hard decisions from that, without reading what exactly I have written.

It is really hard read when one writes a reply line by line method
and don't understand include previously written material with the new
sentences to give them meaning. You seem to be one such.

You also start replying to my articles, even you don't understand what
is going on; you ask me repeatedly to decsribe my views what were
wrong with XV 2.21 even I posted them within the article you did reply
to. Believe me, it is not nice to get flamed specially when I know
that you have not read my article carefully in the first place.

XV-3.00 and JPEG FAQ and users I have written to agree me with the
places you didn't; I'm sure you just didn't undertand what about I
wrote. We can blame my writing skills (in English?) for that, or?

Better stop the discussion and check what new ideas XV-3.00 gives;
I allready mailed one to Bradley...

nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes...

The rest of the story seems to be that the agreement for the broadcast
was for prime-time, and that Koresh never even heard it played. Wasn't
even tuned in to the radio when it aired -- so no reason to come out.

If later they had given him a copy of the grossly twisted newswire 
transcript -- I'm certain Koresh would think he was at the mercy of
evil itself. 

As to coming out after Passover, wasn't that just one of the lawyer's
speculations Peter?

Heck, I remember reading a quote of Luther as something like: "Jews should
be shot like deer."  And of course much Catholic doctrine for centuries was 
extremely anti-Semitic.

A great many computer programmers read "Dr. Dobb's Journal".  In a recent
issue, there was a paragraph in an article that pained me greatly to read.  It

  "There's nothing wrong if Microsoft setting the standards for the computer
industry.  The industry NEEDS an IBM for the 90's."

  Where has the hacker ethic gone?  Not the "cracker" ethic, which is something
entirely different and bad, but the hacker ethic, which tells us to value the
free distribution of information and yield to the hands-on imperative?  Why is
it that people and corporations like Bill Gates, IBM, and Intel are able to
have a virtual dead lock on the computer industry?  Why is it that, if a person
like myself posts messages to Usenet on how to get into the little nooks,
crannies, and idiosyncrasies of a computer system, they are not given any
useful information by those who know, just a badmouthing? (or are completely
ignored)  Why is it that people like Steve Jobs have to abandon their efforts to
make truly innovative products?  I ask those of you who call yourselves
hackers, why is this?  And further, how can you let it go on?  It is a fact
that the computer industry has changed the world, and shall continue to do so
for a long time to come.  It has allowed the propagation of information in a
volume unheard of even twenty years ago, and has made this world even smaller
than it was before.  I shudder to think what that world will be like if the
corporations are allowed to have their way, perpetuating more drivel like the
286, Windows, and the IBM product line on the computer-using public.  

  That is not to say I am against business per se; people who profit off of
innovative, intelligent, creative designs do not bother me.  In fact, I applaud
it; that is the American way.  But those who manage to sell kludgy, uncreative
systems to the public, and profit off of them, are the ones who are the
problem.  And, unfortunately, because they have enough money to make up for
blunt stupidity, they can keep doing it for a very long time.

  I put it to you thus:  Where HAS the hacker ethic gone?  If it still exists,
where?  And, if it DOES exist, why are those who call themselves "hackers"
allowing this to perpetuate itself?  Why are they not creating new, innovative,
interesting ideas to stop the SOS from maintaining its choke hold on the
computer industry?

  I await with interest what will probably be a resounding silence.

That's fine idea, but it only works if the lighting/power company even bothers to supply good light fixtures.  For instance, a power company in Virginia 
recently asked a state commission for permission to sell more lights of various
type.  Yet, all of the different fixture that they sold and wanted to sell
were bad designs - one that wasted the light.  Thus, you couldn't even buy
a good light from them.  In most places, to get a good light, you have to
either order it special at high cost or call a store in Arizona.  At some
point, society starts to make rules.  Cars have to pass safety tests.  
Companies have to meet pollution standards, etc..  There are two ways to achieve this:  educate the public so that they demand good lighting or force code
down the lighting companies backs.  History seems to suggest that the latter
is more likely to work.

Agreed, so I won't respond again.  It's important for all you spacers out 
there to realize that some people will object to various wild ideas that 
have been presented.  Just like Congress, it would be best to consult
the astronomers/lovers of the night sky before you try some PR stunt
to boost public knowledge about space.

This is actually more like the stuff from Phase A and MOL....Phase B ended
with a "Power Tower" approach....

Brian Ceccarelli presents us with the fallacy of False Dichotomy in stating
that we must accept every thing in the books attributed to Peter, or we must
discount every other book of antiquity:

Mr Ceccarelli, you seem to be stating that we must accept accept everything
written in every "historical" document.  Somehow I doubt do that yourself
that.  Thus since I doubt you accept everything written in every historical
document, I would ask how you can thereby objectively justify complete faith
in the words of the books attributed to Peter. 

I shall now give an example of a document from antiquity, which I am sure you
reject; it dates from the time of Ramses II (This was first presented here by
Matthew Wiener).  These inscriptions were carved soon after a battle, and were
carved with the Pharoah's specific approval so we have true originals, rather
than mere copies.  This account records the the battle of Kadesh (circa 1285
BC), which occurred on the river Orontes, (about 100 miles south of Aleppo). 
The Egyptians won this battle with the Hittites, and Ramses had his victory
inscribed all over the place.  A few of of these inscriptions have survived in
near perfect form.  It is a record of how the Pharoah pretty much
single-handedly defeated the Hittites, after being separated from his troops. 

Note that the Egyptian wavers back and forth between first and third person. 
The following is from Miriam Lichtheim`s _Ancient Egyptian Literature_ volume
II.

	My majesty caused the forces of the foes from Hitti to fall
	on their faces, one upon the other, as crocodiles fall, into
	the water of the Orontes.  I was after them like a griffin;
	I attacked all the countries, I alone.  For my infantry and
	my chariotry had deserted me; not one of them stood looking
	back.  As I live, as Ra loves me, as my father Atum favors
	me, everything that my majesty has told I did it in truth,
	in the presence of my infantry and my chariotry.

(Note: This paragraph records not only Ramses "divine word," but also that
there were thousands of witnesses to the event.  Now from the heart of 
battle.)

	Then his majesty drove at a gallop and charged the forces
	of the Foe from Hitti, being alone by himself, none other
	with him.  His majesty proceeded to look about him and
	found 2500 chariots ringing him on his way out ...

	No officer was with me, no charioteer,
	No soldier of the army, no shield-bearer;
	My infantry, my chariotry yielded before them,
	Not one of them stood firm to fight with them.
	His majesty spoke: "What is this, father Amun?
	Is it right for a father to ignore his son?
	Are my deeds a matter for you to ignore?
	Do I not walk and stand at your word?
	I have not neglected an order you gave.
	Too great is he, the great lord of Egypt,
	To allow aliens to step on his path!
	What are these Asiatics to you, O Amun,
	The wretches ignorant of god?
	Have I not made for you many great monuments,
	...
	I call to you, my father Amun,
	I am among a host of strangers;
	All countries are arrayed against me,
	I am alone, there's none with me!
	...
	The labors of many people are nothing,
	Amun is more helpful than they;
	I came here by the command of your mouth,
	O Amun, I have not transgressed your command!"

	Now though I prayed in a distant land,
	My voice resounded in Southern Thebes.
	I found Amun came when I called to him,
	He gave me his hand and I rejoiced.
	He called from behind as if near by:
	"Forward, I am with you,
	I your father, my hand is with you,
	I prevail over a hundred thousand men,
	I am lord of victory, lover of valor!"
	I found my heart stout, my breast in joy,
	All I did succeeded, I was like Mont.
	...
	I slaughtered among them at my will,
	Not one looked behind him,
	Not one turned around,
	Whoever fell down did not rise.
	...
	One called out to the other saying:
	"No man is he who is among us,
	It is Seth great-of-strength, Baal in person;
	Not deeds of man are these his doings,
	They are of one who is unique,
	Who fights a hundred thousand without soldiers and chariots,
	Come quick, flee before him,
	To seek life and breathe air;
	For he who attempts to get close to him,
	His hands, all his limbs grow limp.
	One cannot hold either bow or spears,
	When one sees him come racing along!"
	My majesty hunted them like a griffin,
	I slaughtered among them unceasingly.

So you see Brian, we have a few original manuscripts recording the miraculous 
battle between the Ramses and the Hittites.  Do you reject them as being
*completely* true? I suspect you do, and if so, then do you also, in your own
words: 

    "question the existence of Alexander the Great, Tilgrath Pilisar III,
     Nero, Caligula, Josephus, Cyrus the Great, Artexerxes?"

Do you also thereby question all their documents? That`s the problem with your
"all or nothing" approach.  Many ancient people used to mix a bit of fancy
with their facts.  So for you to say that we must either accept all of Peter
(and the rest of the New Testament) or accept no records of antiquity at all,
forces you thereby, to accept the verity of documents you probably do not find
completely credible. 

As to your other argument that so many people have testified to Jesus, that he
must be true:

I have three points.  

First, this is "argumentum ad populum" (ie: appeal to popular opinion); you
cannot vote on truth.  For instance, do the millions of Hindu's past and
present who testify to the reality of Brahma, constitute actual evidence for
the existence of Brahma? How would you answer your own question in regards to
the testimony of Hindus:

	"With a scoff of your keyboard, with near complete ignorance of 
	 the testimonies, are you going to say that that is all complete 
	 hooey?"

If you do so "scoff," then how do you objectively justify your own special
pleading?

Second, it is not at all clear that King Solomon or King David testified to
Jesus.  You can claim it to be clear, but that does not make it true. 

Third, it is quite arguable that Abraham Lincoln was not Christian, and that
he had both a public and a private view of Christianity.  In fact there was
much discussion about it in his day (yes, he was publically accused of being a
deist.  Oh my).  I am presently collecting a FAQ for Lincoln as I've
previously done for Tyre, Jefferson and etc. 
 
				Later,

This definitely had nothing to do with the entry of the government into
the support of science; some of it is relevant in technology.  There
was little involvement of federal funds, or except through support of
state universities, of state funds, for scientific research before WWII.
The US research position had been growing steadily, and the funding was
mainly from university and private foundation funds.  There were not that
many research universities, but they all provided their researchers with
low teaching loads, laboratories, assistants, and equipment, and funds for
travel to scientific meetings.  Not that much, but it was provided, and a
university wishing to get a scholar had to consider research funding as well
as salary.

During WWII, the military and the defense departments found that pure
scientists could do quite well with their problems, even though they 
were not exactly in the areas of the scientists' expertise.  This is
probably because of the "research mind" approach, which is not to try
to find a solution, but to understand the problem and see if a solution
emerges.  This works in stages, and as research scientists were used to
discussion about their problems, the job got done.

The military realized the importance of maintaining scientists for the
future, and started funding pure research after WWII.  But Congress was
unwilling to have military funds diverted into this investment into the
future supply of scientists, and set up other organizations, such as 
NSF, to do the job.  It also set up an elaborate procedure to supposedly
keep politics out.  Also, the government did a job on private foundations,
making it more difficult for them to act to support research.

The worst part of the federal involvement is that in those areas in which
the government supports research the university will not provide funding,
and in fact expects its scholars to bring in net government money.  Suppose,
as has been the case, I have a project which could use the assistance of
a graduate student for a few months.  What do you think happens if I ask
for one?  The answer I will get is, "Get the money from NSF."  Now the
money at the university level is a few thousand, but at the NSF level it
comes to about 20 thousand, and is likely to keep a faculty member from
getting supported.  So the government is, in effect, deciding which projects
get supported, and how much.  

Also, the government decided that the "wealth" should be spread.  So instead
of having a moderate number of universities which were primarily research
institutions, the idea that more schools should get into the act came into
being.  And instead of evaluating scholars, they had to go to evaluating
reseach proposals.  As a researcher, I can tell you that any research proposal
has to be mainly wishful thinking, or as now happens, the investigator conceals
already done work to release it as the results of the research.  What I am
proposing today I may solve before the funding is granted, I may find 
impossible, or I may find that it is too difficult.  In addition, tomorrow
I may get unexpected research results.  Possibly I may bet a bright idea
which solves yesterday's too difficult problem, or a whole new approach to
something I had not considered can develop.  This is the nature of the beast, 
and except for really vague statements, if something can be predicted, it
is not major research, but development or routine activity not requiring 
more than minimal attention of a good researcher.  

I believe that at this time less quality research is being done than would
have happened if the government had never gotten into it, and the government
is trying to divert researchers from thinkers to plodders.

("like most good ideas,..." please, people!)

_Five Weeks in a Balloon_. Not a good idea unless you have helium.
Verne's protagonists didn't. They just got increadibly lucky.

And yes, I knew the title of the movie too, just didn't want to start
talking about it. Except to bring up the image of a team of S. African
Bushmen showing up at a launch site with spears and flint knives
to stop the launch (anyone want to bet on their success in doing so?
especially since they could probably stop a shuttle launch by sneezing
too hard within a couple miles of the launch site).

Someone named Hansk asked about pictures.

Well, there is an archive of portraits in xfaces format at
ftp.uu.net. Henry Spencer's picture is there somewhere, along
with several thousand others.

I don't remember the path, though it should be easy to find.
Remember, though, it seems to use both internet and uucp
addresses.

Well lets see - a long haired nut case with sexual hangups surrounded
by a lot of gulible losers without a brain between them with a miserable
and meaningless death to boot

Sounds like he fits the bill to me!

Joseph 'Remember David Koresh fried for you' Askew

I understand that Adobe is working on making Photoshop available for
the SGI Indigo, but that is just "rumor" and I wouldn't bet on it
until I see it. But they >are< going to release Illustrator for the SGI
"real soon now."

Why can't an aircraft be designed so that the pilot can always be 
maintained in a upright position, perpendicular to the plane of
acceleration?  With the visual helmets now being used that display
some of the flight parameters and with a keyboard and manuvering
equipment moving with the pilot, a pilot may be able to function at
accelerations in excess of 12G.  Is anyone currently pursuing this
area or is there a reason why this is impossible at the present time?

No, this is far from clear.  We only have the word of the FBI spokepeople that
a survivor made this claim.  We have the contradictory word of the lawyers who
spoke with the survivors individually that ALL of them agreed that they did
NOT have a suicide pact and did not intentionally start the fire.  In the absense
of any more evidence, I don't see how we can decide who to believe.
Furthermore, its quite possible that there was no general suicide pact and that
some small inner circle took it upon themselves to kill everyone else.
With the state of the area now, we may never know what happened.

Again, we have only the word of the FBI on this claim.  The lawyers who
have also talked to the survors deny that any of them are making that claim.

I will agree on your assessment as to the relative probabilities.  Its more likely
that the BD's started the fire than did the FBI.  But there is currently NO
way to decide what actually happened based on the publically available evidence
(which is nearly none).

   D.   The fire was an started accidentally by the BDs.  I am truely amazed that
        I have heard (or read) of no one suggesting this possibility.
        With all the tear gas and the lack of electical power in the compound and
        the adults wearing gas masks, it had to have been chaotic inside.
        I can easily image someone leaving a lamp too close to something or
        accidentally dropping a lamp or knocking one over.  With the winds, it
        would have quickly gotten out of control.

   No, I think that D is also quite reasonable.  I personally can't really
asses any relative probablities to either of these 3 probabilities although if
forced to bet on the issue, I would probably take an accident (either FBI or
BD) over intential setting of the fire).

   I would also like to add a comment related to the reports that bodies recovered
had gunshot wounds.  The coroner was on the Today Show this morning and categorically
denied that they've reach any such conclusions.  He pointed out that under intense
heat, sufficient pressure builds up in the head that can cause it to explode and
that this can look very much like a massive gunshot wound to the head which is
quite consisted with te reports I've read and heard.

   In short, there's been almost no evidence corroborating any of the many
scenarios as to what happened on Monday.  We should remain skeptical until
more information is available.  

-- 

The people involved in it have been building hardware rather than writing
press releases.  This is not a high-manpower project; they don't *have*
spare people sitting around.

As I understand it, there has also been some feeling on the part of some
of the project management that publicity was not a good idea.  A lot of
people have been working on changing this view, with some success.

Well, there are several bursts in species diversity I can think of.
The Cambrian and Ordovician explosions resulted in a vast increase
in animal diversity. Likewise, after the one-two punch of the
Permian and Triassic extinctions, the number of marine animals
rose steadily (**) to an all-time high (*) just prior to the spread 
of humans.

(**) biggest exception being the K/T (bye bye dinos) extinction

(*) about 800 families

Also, plants arose from green algae and colonized the land in
succesive sweeps. Mosses colonized very wet environments first,
ferns (who had evolved vascular tissues) took over more territory
when they evolved (1). These were eventually (mostly) replaced by gymnosperms
(pines and the like) (2) and then (mostly) displaced by angiosperms (flowering
plants -- now the dominant plant group on the planet(3). Fungi
also radiated greatly with the invasion of the land. 

(1) around the carboniferous (up to about 200 families)
(2) around the triassic (up to maybe 250 families)
(3) starting in the cretaceous (rising to about 600 families currently)

It's unclear (to me at least) what the max equilibrium number
of species the earth can hold (***) and if it has ever hit this
in the past. It could be (warning: speculation alert) that
diversity has never reached a peak because mass extinctions
happen often enough to keep the total number down.

(***) This would depend a great deal on how fragmented
specific ecosystems were. 

See Cowen's book "History of Life" for a not-too-technical
run-down on, well, like the title sez, the history of life.
Or see, Wilson's "Diversity of Life" for a view centered more
on current ecology -- this is (IMHO) the best popular biology
book of (what the hell, I'll say it) all time. 

Follow-ups to t.o.

In the part of the posting you have so helpfully deleted, I 
pointed out that they used the wording from the English Bill of
Rights apparently *changing* what they understood by it, and I
asked why then should we, two hundred years later, be bound by
what Keith Allan Schneider *thinks* they understood by it.

So one cannot say "a cruel fate"?

Your prevarications are getting increasingly unconvincing, I think.

Ron Miller is a space artist with a long and distinguished career.  
I've admired both his paintings (remember the USPS Solar System
Exploration Stamps last year?) and his writings on the history of
spaceflight.  For several years he's been working on a *big* project
which is almost ready to hit the streets.  A brochure from his
publisher has landed in my mailbox, and I thought it was cool enough
to type in part of it (it's rather long).  Especially given the Net's
strong interest in vaporware spacecraft...

                 ==================================

                         The Dream Machines:
An Illustrated History of the Spaceship in Art, Science, and Literature

                            By Ron Miller
                  with Foreword by Arthur C. Clarke

Krieger Publishing Company
Melbourne, Florida, USA
Orig. Ed. 1993
Pre-publication $84.50
ISBN 0-89464-039-9

This text is a history of the spaceship as both a cultural and a
technological phenomenon.  The idea of a vehicle for traversing the
space betwen worlds did not spring full-blown into existence in the
tlatter half of theis century.  The need preceded the ability ot make
such a device by several hundred years.  As soon as it was realized
that there were other worlds than this one, human beings wanted to
reach them.   

Tracing the history of the many imaginative, and often prescient,
attempts to solve this problem also reflects the history of
technology, science, astronomy, and engineering.  Once space travel
became feasible, there were many more spacecraft concepts developed
than ever got off the drawing board-- or off the ground, for that
matter.  These also are described in theis book, for the same reason
as the pre-space-age and pre-flight ideas are:  they are all accurate
reflections of their particular era's dreams, abilities, and
knowledge.  Virtually every spaceship concept invented since 1500, as
well as selected events important in developing the idea of
extraterrestrial travel, is listed chronologically.  The chronological
entries allow comparisons between actual astronautical events and
speculative ventures.  They also allow comparisons between
simultaneous events taking place in different countries.  They reveal
connections, influences, and evolutions hitherto unsuspected.  Every
entry is accompanied by at least one illustration.  Nearly every
spacecraft concept is illustrated with a schematic drawing.  This
allows accurate comparisons to be made between designss, to visualize
differences, similarities, and influences.

This text will be of interest to students of astronautical history,
and also to model builders who would be interested in the schematic
diagrams.   Science fiction fans as well as aviation history buffs and
historians of science will also find this book to be fascinating.  The
unique collection of illustrations makes it a visually attractive and
very interesting history of the spaceship.

SPECIAL FEATURES

Includes scale drawings of several hundred spacecraft, both real and
fictional

Contains scores of illustrations: artwork, drawings, and photos
contemporary with the subject.  This includes extremely rare
illustrations from scarce books and novels, exclusive photos and
drawings fromSoviet spacecraft; rare stills from both famous and
obscure science fiction films, and unpublished photographs from NASA
archives

An index, bibliography, and appendices are included.

CONTENTS

Part I  The Archaeology of the Spaceship (360 B.C. to 1783 A.D.)
Part II The invention of the Spaceship (1784-1899)
Part III The Experimenters (1900-1938)
Part IV The World War (1939-1945)
Part V  The Golden Age of the Spaceship (1946-1960)
Part VI The Dawn of the Space Age (1961 to the present)

ABOUT RON MILLER

[The brochure has a page of stuff here; I'll try to hit the high
spots.]

Former art director for Albert Einstein Planetarium  at Smithsonian's
National Air and Space Museum

Member of International Association for Astronomical Arts, member of
International Astronautical Association, Fellow of the British
Interplanetary Society,  consulting editor for *Air & Space
Smithsonian* magazine

Author, co-author, editor, or sole illustrator on many books since
1979, including *Space Art*, *Cycles of Fire*, *The Grand Tour*, and
many others, as well as many articles and papers

Book jackets and interior art for over a dozen publishers 

Contributor to IBM traveling exhibition and book *Blueprint for Space*

Production illustrator for movies *Dune* and *Total Recall*

Designer of ten-stamp set of commemorative space postage stamps for
U.S. Postal Service in 1991 (Solar System Exploration)

ORDERING INFORMATION

Pre-publication price $84.50 before 1 May 1993
Afterwards, price will be $112.50

PO Box 9542
Melbourne, FL 32902-9542
USA
Direct order line (407)727-7270
Fax (407)951-3671

Add $5.00 for shipping by UPS within USA for first book, $1.50 for each
additional book.  

For foreign orders, add $6.00 for first book, $2.00 for each
additional.  Additional charges for airmail shipments.

	Give me a call when you build a working model. 

	Then we'll talk stock options.
---

Krishna.

BG10:20(Miller) I am the self abiding in the heart of all creatures; I am
their beginning, their middle, and their end.
BG10:32(Miller) I am the beginning, the middle, and the end of
creations, Arjuna; of sciences, I am the science of the self; I am the
dispute of orators.
BG10:41(Miller) Whatever is powerful, lucid, splendid, or invulnerable
has its source in a fragment of my brilliance. (42) What use is so much
knowledge to you, Arjuna? I stand sustaining this entire world with a
fragment of my being.
BG11:32(Miller) I am time grown old ...

Wm Hathaway comments;

I agree that the desire for beauty is valid, but I think your desire to
impose your vision of beauty is not.  You mention the age-old desire to
somehow get up there, but ignore the beauty of the actual achievment
of that vision.  You mention the beauty of a very dark sky, not impeded
by the effects of humans, but ignore the beauty of the as-dark-as-can-be
sky that is only visible from space, a vision that we, or at least,
our descendents, may one day be able to see, in part, because of efforts
that others call ugly.  One day, I hope, humans will be able to look out,
not upon half the heavens, with only nature-creted lights, but upon all
of the heavens, with no lights.  If advertising in space can help us reach
that goal, it is no less beautiful for the way we reach it, than the
'pristine' sky of yesteryear (or yester-century), which is totally
unreachable.  One of the original conceptions of beauty in wetsern
sculpture was a human form, in the effort of striving to reach a goal.
I don't think there's any reason to believe that modernity has changed that,
just because it has changed the way we strive.

BTW, there are places that people haven't fouled.  Sometimes they make
it better.

-Tommy Mac

The reference to it's not yet being ethics is dubious. You have used the terms
absolute, objective and others interchangeably. Same with moral values, values,
at all, worth, measuers, and usefulness. You infer from them as if they were
the same.
 
To the IF. When the If is not fulfilled, your intermission is a waste of time.
Assuming that you don't intend this, it is reasonable to conclude that you
want to argue a point.
 
You have made a interesting statement here, namely that of the disinterested
observer. There is no such thing in morals. Probably the shortest proof for
objective and morality being a contradiction.
 
Fine. And that freedom is valuable is not generally agreed upon. I could
name quite a lot of people who state the opposite. (Not that that wasn't
mentioned before). In other words, you have nothing to fulfill your strong
claims with.
 
Clutching a straw. I don't believe in mappings into metaphysical sets were
loaded terms are fixpoints. Those who deny the morality of freedom make quite
clear what they say, their practice is telling. Yes, there are even those who
are willingly unfree. It is quite common in religions, by the way. For one,
there is a religion which is named Submission.
 
Don't even try to argue that submission is freedom.
 
If it were so, it would argue my case. But I am afraid that that is considered
proof.
 
Hi I'm new to imaging, and my advisor and I would like to 
do some 3D reconstructions.

We take slides (biological), and image them on a 486.  Then
the software allows us to trace the outline of the objects 
we want to save.  The outlines are stored as a TIFF file.

We would like to convert a group of these outlines into a 
3D image.  We are unsure as to where to begin.  Someone mentioned
that if we could convert the TIFF into a vector format then 
we could view them in Autocad.

"Let's make a deal!"  If you're going to put up a billion, I'd want to budget
the whole sheebang for $450-600 million.  If I have that much money to throw
around in the first place, you betcha I'm going to sign a contract committing
to volume production...

I heard a friend who just return from NAB from Las Vegas confirm
that RealSoft will be releasing a Windows version of REAL-3D 2.0
this summer.  He was told that the rendering speed on the DX50 isn't
as fast as A4000.  However, he was also told that they are switching
from Microsoft C++ to Watcom to gain more speed.  For people who is
looking for a powerful 3D animation software for PC.  The wait
shouldn't be too long.  Real 3D 2.0 is absolutely the most powerful and
flexible 3D package out there that sells for less than $1000.

[...deletions...]

An "Islamic Bank" is something which operates in a different fashion to
your modern bank, as I have explained here (on another thread) before.
For example, Islamic banks don't pay fixed interests on deposits, but a
return on investments (which varies according to the market, and is not
fixed like interest is).

Islamic banks are a relatively new phenomenon in the Islamic world.
There are no Islamic banks in "the West", including the USA, to my
knowledge.  I doubt if the market for them exists there -- at least not
while "Islamic banks" are at a relatively early stage of their
development as is the case now.  BCCI is most certainly not an "Islamic
bank" -- did BCCI ever pay a fixed interest rate on deposits?  If the
answer to this question is "yes", then BCCI was not an Islamic bank, as
Islamic banks are specifically set up to _not_ pay or charge interest.

Whether some Muslims partially owned the bank or whatever is completely
irrelevant.  

[deleted stuff from Andrew wrt which atheist myth is Bill re: to]

"Counterfeit atheists". Hmmmm. So, we're just cheap knock-offs of the
True Atheists. 

Religion demonstrates itself to be absurd. Constantly. Personally, if 
someone asks, I'm happy to point out how this is so. 

Man, what *is* your pill wrt atheists? If you're going to make such
contentious statements, back them up! At least, READ NEWS: time-and-time
again, we've hashed out the beliefs various religous doctrines hold. 
Try debating reasonably with someone who makes a statement like, 
"...more accurately oxymoric is the a term like, reasonable atheist."
Then take a look at the responses we've given Tammy. Seem pretty
"reasonable", nay, even "polite" to me. 

[accusations of myths a-flyin']

I saw your reference to "According to" in the original article.
Then you do such an excellent job of spewing dogma that, well, the
implication was pretty clear (if wrong, in this case).

[jeez, a misunderstanding. Let it go.]

[more statements to wrap this thing up]

If you had WRITTEN your post with the same as care as the FAQ has been,
we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[gems about evidence deleted]

Jeez, do I have to point this out to you? This discussion is not all
instances of human reason. Therefore, your implication is false.

How lame can you get. Who said anything about the 'truth' of things?
Read the FAQ very carefully, please. Then report your findings about
where it says the purpose of a.a is to find the 'truth' of things.

And stop impressing your own misguided image of atheists upon us. It's
really pissing me off.

Well, again, I am doing as much as the poster I was replying too. I am
quite busy and really don't have the time to respond in full scholarly
form to every accusation that is flippantly made by someone who's 
being clearly antagonistic.

I have considered it. But if someone spreads falsehoods out of
ignorance then they are still spreading falsehoods. Those falsehoods
generally do not come out of nowhere but are produced by people
who know that what they are saying is (at _least_) not the whole
truth. I still consider such spreading of falsehoods propaganda
on some level.

Bob, I never accused you of having your head up your ass! It takes
me quite some time in dealing with someone before accusing them of
having their head up their ass. I was accusing the original poster
(Benedikt, I believe) of being so impaired.

Cheers,

The Space Calendar is updated monthly and the latest copy is available
at ames.arc.nasa.gov in the /pub/SPACE/FAQ.  Please send any updates or
corrections to Ron Baalke (baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov).  Note that launch
dates are subject to change.

     The following person made contributions to this month's calendar:

        o Dennis Newkirk - Soyuz TM-18 Launch Date (Dec 1993).

                          =========================
                               SPACE CALENDAR
                               April 27, 1993

* indicates change from last month's calendar

April 1993
* Apr 29 - Astra 1C Ariane Launch

May 1993
  May ?? - Advanced Photovoltaic Electronics Experiment (APEX) Pegasus Launch
  May ?? - Radcal Scout Launch
  May ?? - GPS/PMQ Delta II Launch
* May ?? - Commercial Experiment Transporter (COMET) Conestoga Launch
* May 01 - Astronomy Day
* May 01-2 - Iapetus/Saturn Eclipse
  May 04 - Galileo Enters Asteroid Belt Again
  May 04 - Eta Aquarid Meteor Shower (Maximum: 21:00 UT, Solar Lon: 44.5 deg)
* May 13 - Air Force Titan 4 Launch
* May 18 - STS-57, Endeavour, European Retrievable Carrier (EURECA-1R)
* May 20 - 15th Anniversary, Pioneer Venus Orbiter Launch
  May 21 - Partial Solar Eclipse, Visible from North America & Northern Europe
  May 25 - Magellan, Aerobraking Begins

June 1993
  Jun ?? - Temisat Meteor 2 Launch
  Jun ?? - UHF-2 Atlas Launch
  Jun ?? - NOAA-I Atlas Launch
  Jun ?? - First Test Flight of the Delta Clipper (DC-X), Unmanned
  Jun ?? - Hispasat 1B & Insat 2B Ariane Launch
  Jun 04 - Lunar Eclipse, Visible from North America
  Jun 14 - Sakigake, 2nd Earth Flyby (Japan)
  Jun 22 - 15th Anniversary of Charon Discovery (Pluto's Moon) by Christy
  Jun 30 - STS-51, Discovery, Advanced Communications Technology Satellite

July 1993
  Jul ?? - MSTI-II Scout Launch
  Jul ?? - Galaxy 4 Ariane Launch
  Jul 01 - Soyuz Launch (Soviet)
  Jul 08 - Soyuz Launch (Soviet)
  Jul 14 - Soyuz TM-16 Landing (Soviet)
* Jul 20-21 - Iapetus/Saturn Eclipse
  Jul 21 - Soyuz TM-17 Landing (Soviet)
  Jul 28 - S. Delta Aquarid Meteor Shower (Maximum: 19:00 UT,
           Solar Longitude 125.8 degrees)
  Jul 29 - NASA's 35th Birthday

August 1993
  Aug ?? - ETS-VI (Engineering Test Satellite) H2 Launch (Japan)
  Aug ?? - GEOS-J Launch
  Aug ?? - Landsat 6 Launch
  Aug ?? - ORBCOM FDM Pegasus Launch
* Aug 08 - 15th Anniversary, Pioneer Venus 2 Launch (Atmospheric Probes)
  Aug 09 - Mars Observer, 4th Trajectory Correction Maneuver (TCM-4)
  Aug 12 - N. Delta Aquarids Meteor Shower (Maximum: 07:00 UT,
           Solar Longitude 139.7 degrees)
  Aug 12 - Perseid Meteor Shower (Maximum: 15:00 UT,
           Solar Longitude 140.1 degrees)
  Aug 24 - Mars Observer, Mars Orbit Insertion (MOI)
  Aug 25 - STS-58, Columbia, Spacelab Life Sciences (SLS-2)
  Aug 28 - Galileo, Asteroid Ida Flyby

September 1993
  Sep ?? - SPOT-3 Ariane Launch
  Sep ?? - Tubsat Launch
  Sep ?? - Seastar Pegasus Launch

October 1993
  Oct ?? - Intelsat 7 F1 Ariane Launch
  Oct ?? - SLV-1 Pegasus Launch
  Oct ?? - Telstar 4 Atlas Launch
  Oct 01 - SeaWIFS Launch
  Oct 22 - Orionid Meteor Shower (Maximum: 00:00 UT, Solar Longitude
           208.7 degrees)

November 1993
  Nov ?? - Solidaridad/MOP-3 Ariane Launch
  Nov 03 - 20th Anniversary, Mariner 10 Launch (Mercury & Venus Flyby Mission)
  Nov 03 - S. Taurid Meteor Shower
  Nov 04 - Galileo Exits Asteroid Belt
  Nov 06 - Mercury Transits Across the Sun, Visible from Asia, Australia, and
           the South Pacific
* Nov 08 - Mars Observer, Mapping Orbit Established
  Nov 10 - STS-60, Discovery, SPACEHAB-2
  Nov 13 - Partial Solar Eclipse, Visible from Southern Hemisphere
  Nov 15 - Wilhelm Herschel's 255th Birthday
  Nov 17 - Leonids Meteor Shower (Maximum: 13:00 UT, Solar Longitude
           235.3 degrees)
* Nov 22 - Mars Observer, Mapping Begins
  Nov 28-29 - Total Lunar Eclipse, Visible from North America & South America

December 1993
  Dec ?? - GOES-I Atlas Launch
  Dec ?? - NATO 4B Delta Launch
  Dec ?? - TOMS Pegasus Launch
  Dec ?? - DirectTv 1 & Thiacom 1 Ariane Launch
  Dec ?? - ISTP Wind Delta-2 Launch
  Dec ?? - STEP-2 Pegasus Launch
* Dec ?? - Soyuz TM-18 Launch (Soviet)
  Dec 02 - STS-61, Endeavour, Hubble Space Telescope Repair
  Dec 04 - SPEKTR-R Launch (Soviet)
* Dec 05 - 20th Anniversary, Pioneer 10 Jupiter Flyby
  Dec 08 - Mars Observer, Mars Equinox
  Dec 14 - Geminids Meteor Shower (Maximum: 00:00 UT,
           Solar Longitude 262.1 degrees)
  Dec 20 - Mars Observer, Solar Conjunction Begins
  Dec 23 - Ursids Meteor Shower (Maximum: 01:00 UT,
           Solar Longitude 271.3 degrees)

January 1994
  Jan 03 - Mars Observer, End of Solar Conjunction
  Jan 24 - Clementine Titan IIG Launch (Lunar Orbiter, Asteroid Flyby Mission)

February 1994
  Feb ?? - SFU Launch
  Feb ?? - GMS-5 Launch
  Feb 05 - 20th Anniversary, Mariner 10 Venus Flyby
  Feb 08 - STS-62, Columbia, U.S. Microgravity Payload (USMP-2)
  Feb 15 - Galileo's 430th Birthday
  Feb 21 - Clementine, Lunar Orbit Insertion
  Feb 25 - 25th Anniversary, Mariner 6 Launch (Mars Flyby Mission)

March 1994
  Mar ?? - TC-2C Launch
  Mar 05 - 15th Anniversary, Voyager 1 Jupiter flyby
  Mar 14 - Albert Einstein's 115th Birthday
  Mar 27 - 25th Anniversary, Mariner 7 Launch (Mars Flyby Mission)
  Mar 29 - 20th Anniversary, Mariner 10, 1st Mercury Flyby
* Mar 31 - Galaxy 1R Delta 2 Launch

First and foremost, I honestly do not believe that Jesus was anything
more than a man who lived and died two thousand years ago.  I know
your Bible provides wonderful stories of the things he said and did,
but I simply do not believe that he still exists as an entity that has
any bearing on this universe or the lives in it, and I similarly do
not believe that the god that you worship exists or has ever existed.

Period.

I view religion in general and Christianity in specific as a 'cultural
virus' that has been passed down from generation to generation because
people are often too afraid to think for themselves and claim
responsibility for their own fate, so they brainwash themselves and
their children into believing the popular myths, and it goes on from
there.  And eventually Christianity becomes a given -- if so many
other people believe in it, it must be right, no?

I don't believe in any "life after death".  I believe that when I die,
I die, so therefore it's up to me to try to bring meaning and purpose
to my life in the meantime.  I don't believe that it's a good thing to
humble myself and view pride as a sin -- pride, in moderation, is a
constructive thing.  I see nothing at all wrong with homosexuality and
nothing inferior about women, and my priests lost a lot of my trust
when they patronizingly tried to explain the 'faults' of these
opinions to me.  I don't believe in 'loving everyone', especially
people I've never met; while I try to show respect to everyone, my
love and admiration is something not easily earned, and I do not feel
guilty about denying my respect and consideration to someone who has
abused it.

If you want me to take your religion the least bit seriously, stop
trying to show me how the Bible "makes sense".  Start trying to show
me that this Jesus person is somehow still influencing anyone's life
here on Earth.

That has sort of happened for real. Back in the 1920's travellers
in the Sudan would find strange cigar shaped designs on native huts.
When asked the locals would say it was a picture of the great omen
that appeared in the sky. This was LZ 53 a zepplin flying from Bulgaria
to German East Africa with supplies in 1917 (and back since it was fooled
by the British secret service.)

Tell me are you really this stupid, or are you just pretending. 

A fire insurance is not an offensive weapon.

A spare tire is not an offensive weapon.

What is the copyright status of this data?  Are there restrictions regarding the
uses they can be put to?

Kaveh

When Robert refers to the "orthodox", he is talking about the Historical
position of the Christian Faith. Such things are derived from Biblcal
texts through the centuries by the apocolic fathers of the faith.

You are right that people read things differently in the Bible, and this
is alright in parts like parables and such forth. However, when it comes
to the essential doctrines of the Historical Orthodox Christan Beliefs,
there is only one correct way to read it. For example, either the
doctrine of the Trinity is true, or it is false. Yes, people read the
texts differently, but only one position is true. They both cannot be.
According to the text, the doctrine is true and has always existed.

Where did the hacker ethic go?

We hackers of the 70's and 80' are now comfortably employed
and supporting families.  The next generation takes
the radical lead now.  Don't look for radicalism among us
old ones; we're gone...

I'm working on a system which uses a given set of 3D key frame
positions (x,y,z) to control an imaginary camera movement.  I'm
using Kochanek-Bartels splines (as described in the SIGGRAPH '84
proceedings) to create a variable number of inbetweens between
the key frames.  I want the inbetweens to be given in the form
(x,y,z,dx,dy,dz) where the last three argumentsa are the x, y and
z component of the viewing direction vector of the camera when
positioned at (x,y,z).

The method presented by Kochanek and Bartels only deals with the
positions of the inbetween view points to be generated.  I've
tried to set the viewing direction at a view point equal to the
chord between the two adjacent view points (which in general are
not key frames), but this causes a sligt discontinuity of the
viewing direction vector at the key frame positions (although
the spatial movement seems to work fine; and I'm quite certain
- I think :) - that I've not simply made an implementation
error...)

Now I wonder if anyone out there has used this spline form for
similar purposes and how they decided the viewing vectors.
I'd appreciate replies to be emailed to me at
  iharkest@lise.unit.no
Anyone else interested in the answer will be sent a summary of
the replies if they contact me.

-- 
 _________     __________________
\\        \\  \\
 \\ N G E  \\==\\ A R K E S T A D     iharkest@lise.unit.no         Comp. Sc.
  \\________\\  \\_______________     NTH (Norwegian Institute of Technology)

Hello, I've raytraced and rendered and the only difference I've found 
is that raytracing takes a hell of a lot longer. Am I missing
something?

Even if they did, a globe at a scale that you could fit into your average room
or even average "hall" the deviations you mention would not be visually
evident. In other words a micrometer would be required to test the fact that 
the Globe was infact pear-shaped.  

Regards Scott.
Scott Fisher [scott@psy.uwa.oz.au]  PH: Aus [61] Perth (09) Local (380 3272).                
                                                             _--_|\       N
Department of Psychology                                    /      \    W + E
University of Western Australia.      Perth [32S, 116E]-->  *_.--._/      S
Nedlands, 6009.  PERTH, W.A.                                      v       

    *** ERROR 144 - REBOOT? is a registered trademark of ENSONIQ Corp ***

Doing this in anything like reasonable time would require more
propulsion capability than we can manage.  You would have to boost to
Pluto and then slow back down.  You could do something like a Hohman
orbit, but I think that would take ridiculous amounts of time (my
Rubber Bible is at home).

-- 

[reply to jimh@carson.u.washington.edu (James Hogan)]
 
I take the view that they are here for our entertainment.  When they are
no longer entertaining, into the kill file they go.

  Precisely my position.  

  As a newbie, I tried the point-by-point approach to debate with
  these types.  It wasted both my time and my lifespan.  Ignoring
  them is not an option, since they don't go away, and doing so
  would leave one with large stretches of complete anonymity in this
  group.

  What's left?  Healthy flaming.  I'm sure on occassion I've
  appeared to be little more than a caustic boob to some of the
  Bobby types.  But why waste breath arguing with someone whose most
  rational though process involves his excretory system?

  And I stand by my record of recognizing these people long before
  most of the rest of the group.  So let's see what this Timmons
  character has in store for us...

For some reasons we humans think that it is our place to control
everything.  I doubt that space advertising is any worse than any other
kind advertising, but it will be a lot harder to escape, and is probably
the most blatant example yet of our disregard for the fact that we are 
not in fact creaters of the universe.  Annoying little species, aren't we?

Yes, as a philosophy weak atheism is worthless.  This is true in
exactly the same sense that as a philosophy Christians' disbelief in
Zeus is worthless.  Atheists construct their personal philosophies
from many different sources, building non-god-based ideas in the same
way as Christians build non-Zeus-based ideas of thunderbolts.
Atheists no more *base* their philosophy on atheism than Christians
base theirs on the nonexistence of Zeus.

The "weak atheist" position is logically extremely assailable -- any
logical demonstration of the existence of a god completely destroys it
as soon as the demonstration is made in the presence of a given weak
atheist.  Atheists in this newsgroup are barraged regularly with
attempts to provide such a logical demonstration, and they all fail
miserably.  In fact, most of the people around here who claim the
"strong (as opposed to mathematical) atheist" position do so on this
basis: not only do we not believe in a god, but also all the arguments
presented in favor of particular gods have to date proven unsound;
therefore, one can say that those gods as argued by those arguments do
not exist.  This doesn't apply to such philosophers' gods as are
defined to be logically undemonstrable, but these are not the gods of
popular religion, and the coherence of such claims is quite
questionable. 

   Hmm... there must be two towns with the same name.  Kaliningrad,
located just North of Moscow is correct.  It is the home of several
Russian space enterprises, including NPO Energia, Krunichev, Fakel,
and Tsniimach.  The main Russian manned spacecraft control facility
is also located here.
   Kaliningrad is easily reachable by auto from Moscow, and tours
can be arranged.  Call ahead though, there are still armed military
guards at many of these facilities -- who don't speak English,
aren't well paid, and are rather bored.
   It's a very popular destination with Western space industry
types at the moment.
 ----------------------------------------------------------------

Think about what you are saying here. The 24 bit image is quantised down to 8
bits so many 'similar' colours are mapped onto a single palette colour. This
colour gets modified in fairly arbitrary ways. You then want to apply these
modifications back to the 24 bit file, so you have to find which colours mapped
to this one palette colour. Ok you could do this by copying the 24 bit file to a
32 bit file and using the extra 8 bits to hold the index entry. 
Having done this, you need to do something to them ... what, exactly?

Apply the difference in RGB between the original and modified palette entry to
each colour in the group? This could generate colours with RGB outside the range
0...255. It would also lead to discontinuities when different parts of a smooth
colour gradient mapped to several different palette entries.

You could interpolate from full modification to no modification depending how
far each colour was from the palette entry. However I suspect this would look
rather odd.

So in summary, what I said in my previous posting still holds:

In other words, to edit a 24 bit file you need software built for the job.
Tacking mods onto xv is going to create more problems than it solves.

As to the other bits - you seemed to be claiming that there were bugs in XV. If
that was not what you meant, then:

Yes, I probably did. I found that the collected digest format of your posting
made it a little difficult to understand precisely what your point was. Sorry
if I misunderstood.

Yes again. What *is* (was?) wrong with xv?

--

	I heard that there is a VESA driver for the XGA-2 card available on 
compuserve. I just got this card, and I am wondering if this driver is 
available on a FTP site anywhere. My news service has beeen erratic lately so
please E-Mail me at:
				walsh@stolaf.edu
	Thanks in advance. 

	Does anyone know of a fractal terrain generator for Mac, something
	I could hopefully import into a 3D program like Swivel or Stratavision?
	I know Infini-D has built in capabilities, but I don't have access to
	Infini-D. I downloaded two programs from Umich, in graphics/fractals,
	but both were from 1990-91 and crashed under System 7. I think they
	were Black and white anyway. Please, email me if you know of anything,
	as I don't check the newsgroups very often.
		Thanks in advance.
			Dan Bradley deb47099@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu

The aperture door will be shut during reboost. Using the shuttle
means that there will be someone nearby to pry the door open again 
if it should stick.

Actually, I find the stuff about JC being a carpenter more
interesting.  Is there an independent source for this assertion,
or is it all from the Christian Bible?  Is there any record at
all of anything he built?  A table, a house, some stairs (Norm
Abrams says the real test of a carpenter's skill is building
stairs with hand tools).  Did he leave any plans behind for, say
kitchen counters and cabinets?  Did he build his own cross?
If so, did he use pressure-treated lumber?  Gotta use that
pressure-treated anywhere that wood meets concrete, but it
holds up better anyway for mose outdoor applications.  I keep
seeing these bumper-stickers that say "My boss is a Jewish
Carpenter," but they're always on the back of Ford Escorts,
and a real carpenter's apprentice would probably drive a
pickup, so I'm out for verification that he really was a
carpenter.

Yup.

Most JPEG viewers seem to require specific video drivers since they support
only specific video cards. Some have the standard IBM BIOS video support for
the VGA 320x200 256 colour mode, but they leave out the other cards such as
the Hercules monochrome card (which by the way can give very good picture
quality if your dithering works right).

I can't remember the name of a JPEG viewer since I usually convert JPEG's to
GIF's before viewing them. But some require VESA driver for the video cards.
You don't need any special hardware to view JPEG's except perhaps for a VGA
card and maybe a 286+ processor. Most people these days program for 286+
computers and neglect the rest of the 86 processors (8086, 8088). I have a
8088 clone (a NEC V20 processor) and a Hercules card, I have had to write
some programs so that they will view GIF's and animations for the VGA and other
colour graphics boards on my monochrome Hercules card. I use Floyd-Steinberg
dithers and have found that if one does something neat with the colour palette
the resulting dithered image gives much greater detail than it normally would
when viewed on other monochrome systems. CompuShow 8.50 has FS dithering but
it does the standard thing with the image palette before dithering, my way
gives a brighter more detailed image.

Anyway, enough of my rambling in the wrong direction. The final point is, as
far as I know, you don't need extra hardware to view JPEG's other than the
VGA (and perhaps a 286 or better)

Have a day!

    ...
    ...

    Interesting idea.

    This suggestion has inspired me to post, under the title "Theories 
of Creation", a collection of various "philosophies" of creation that 
I am aware of.  Could you explain which of these theories you would
want taught, and which ones you would not?  Or, perhaps, I haven't
included a favorite theory of yours (if so, could you describe it for
me for inclusion in an updated list)?

Has anyone seen hallusions?  You can buy a poster of them and it looks like a simple dot pattern
when you first look at it but if you focus behind it you see a 3d picture.  I'm looking for
a program that generates these pictures.  There's a company in Texas that makes them but I 
doubt if they're giving the program away.  Any help would be appreciated. 

I don't think that idea means what you think it does. Having everyone
on Earth subject to some ad agency's "poor taste" *is* an abomination.
(abomination : n. loathing; odious or degrading habit or act; an
object of disgust. (Oxford Concise Dictionary)) Maybe *you* don't mind
having every part of your life saturated with commercials, but many of
us loathe it. I'd rather not have the beauty of the night sky always marred
by a giant billboard, and I'll bet the idea is virtually sacrilegious
to an astronomer like Sagan.

If this man Clark is a NASA administrator then god save NASA. Of course
the Shuttles record is unrivaled !  There is only one Shuttle. Furthermore,
there is only likely to be one Shuttle now that Hermes and Boron are 
effectively cancelled.

These officials should spend more of their time explaining to their
European and Asian partners how we are expected to believe in them
when their paymasters change their minds on major international
projects everytime a new US administration takes office (considering
the major impacts this has on the European and Asian (Japanese)
industry). It is also appreciated how this affects American
industry. I am of course talking about Space Stattion Freedom.

I am looking for a small utility that will convert a Microsoft Video (AVI)
file to an Autodesk Animator Pro (FLC) file. Since AVIs also contain sound,
it would be nice if this utility also stored the sound track as a WAV or VOC
file. Currently I'm accomplishing this by saving the AVI as multiple DIBs
using Video for Windows, then converting each DIB to a GIF, then loading the
GIFs into Animator. For the sound, I load the original AVI into WavEdit and
save it as a seperate WAV file. This requires too many steps to be productive.

Any help will be GREATLY appreciated.

          Thanks
             Don

Oh no, not again.

There is a difference between believing that God exists, and loving him.
(For instance, Satan certainly believes God exists, but does not love him.)
What unbelievers request in situations like this is that God provide evidence
compelling enough to believe he exists, not to compel them to love him.
--

#|> #
#|> #Noting that a particular society, in this case the mainland UK,
#|> #has few religously motivated murders, and few murders of *any*
#|> #kind, says very little about whether inter-religion murders elsewhere
#|> #are religiously motivated.
#|> 
#|> No, but it allows one to conclude that there is nothing inherent
#|> in all religion (or for that matter, in catholicism and protestantism)
#|> that motivates one to kill.
#
#"Motivates" or "allows?"    The Christian Bible says that one may kill
#under certain circumstances.   In fact, it instructs one to kill under
#certain circumstances.     

I'd say the majority of people have a moral system that instructs them
to kill under certain circumstances.  I do get your distinction between
motivate and allow, and I do agree that if a flavour of theism 'allows'
atoricities, then that's an indictment of that theism.  But it rather
depends on what the 'certain circumstances' are.  When you talk about
Christianity, or Islam, then at least your claims can be understood.
It's when people go to a general statement about theism that it falls
apart.  One could believe in a God which instructs one to be utterly
harmless.
#
#|> For my part, I conclude that something
#|> else is required.  I also happen to believe that that something
#|> else will work no less well without religion - any easy Them/Us will
#|> do.
#
#And what does religion supply, if not an easy Them/Us?

Not necessarily.  "Love thy neighbour" does not supply a them/us - it
demolishes it.  And my definition of religion is broader than my
definition of theism, as I have explained.
#
#|> #By insisting that even the murder of four labourers, chosen because
#|> #they were catholics, and who had nothing to do with the IRA, by 
#|> #Protestant extremists, is *not* religously motivated, I think what 
#|> #you are saying is that you simply will not accept *any* murder as 
#|> #being religiously motivated.
#|> 
#|> No.  What about that guy who cut off someone's head because he believed 
#|> he was the devil incarnate?  That was religously motivated.
#
#What about the Protestant extremists who killed four Catholic 
#labourers?     That *wasn't* religiously motivated?

Not in my opinion.  If they were doing it because of some obscure
point of theology, then yes.  But since all protestants don't do this
(nor do they elect extremists to do it for them), it's just too broad
too say "religion did this".  I'm saying that the causes are far more
complex than that - take away the religious element, and you'd still
have the powerful motives of revenge and misguided patriotism.  You
know, when most Catholics and Protestants worldwide say 'stop the 
killing', one might listen to that, especially when you claim not
to read minds.
#
#
#|> Also, the murders ensuing from the fatwa on Mr. Rushdie, the Inquisitions,
#|> and the many religous wars.
#
#What's so special about these exceptions?    Isn't this all just a
#grab-bag of ad-hoc excuses for not considering some other murders
#to be religiously motivated?    What's the general principle behind
#all this?

The general principle is that it's fairly clear (to me, at least) that
religion is the primary motivator (enabler, whatever) of these.  It's
not nearly so obvious what's going on when one looks at NI, apart
from violence of course.
#
#|> #It's not an abstract "argument".   Northern Irish Protestants say
#|> #"We don't want to be absorbed into am officially Catholic country."
#|> #
#|> #Now what are we supposed to do?   Are we supposed to reply "No,
#|> #that's only what you think you don't want.   Mr O'Dwyer assures us
#|> #that no matter what you say you want, you really want something 
#|> #else?"
#|> 
#|> You think the Unionists wouldn't mind being absorbed into a non-Catholic 
#|> country (other than the UK of course)?   It's a terrible thing to lose
#|> a mind.   Maybe the word "country" is there for more than just kicks.
#|> I certainly don't believe that the Unionists are in it for God - I think
#|> they wish to maintain their position of privilege.
#
#I'm still listening to what they say, and you are still telling us 
#your version of what they think.   You read minds, and I don't.

You've speculated on my motives often enough, and you don't take
my statements of my own beliefs at face value - therefore your claim 
not to read minds has no credibility with me, sorry.   I also note that 
you fail to answer my question.  It just looks to me very much like
you have an axe to grind - especially as you are indeed ignoring what 
most Protestants say - which is @stop the killing".  The people you
refer to are properly described as Unionists, not Protestants.
#
#As for their position of privilege, what is that if not religion-
#based?

It is based on politics, bigotry, and heartless extremism.  None of these
things are synonymous with religion, though there is certainly some
overlap.

Could you be more specific?  I need that file too but couldn't find it 
amongst ALL the directories at wuarchive.

Sorry, Gregg, it was no answer to a post of mine. And you are quite
fond of using abusing language whenever you think your religion is
misrepresented. By the way, I have no trouble telling me apart from
Bob Beauchaine.
 
I still wait for your answer to that the Quran allows you to beat your wife
into submission. You were quite upset about the claim that it was in it,
to be more correct, you said it wasn't.
 
I asked you about what your consequences were in case it would be in the
Quran, but you have simply ceased to respond on that thread. Can it be
that you have found out in the meantime that it is the Holy Book?

Actually if Mr X had something to gain by his claims his
account of the events would nmot be the most respected. Case
and point, the resurrection. By claiming that the resurrection
actually happened the early preachers were able to convert many
to Christianity. However, if you read Mathew 27:38 (?) and the
case for the resurrected saints who walked around Jerusalem and
appeared to "many People" you would realize that other
historians (Josephus for one) would have reported on it all if
it happened. The fact that the Bible speaks of events of such
great magnitude that they would have been noticed taken with
the fact that they are not reported on by historians could only
mean that the bible contains many made up stories.

Apollo (now HP) have a graphics board that does 80-bit graphics.  When I 
heard that, I jumped.  The answer isn't that it can do 100 trillion-trillion-
trillion colors.  It actually does 10 planes of 8-bits (or 5 planes of 16
bits, etc.)  for very fast graphics.

I am looking for software that reads a plot in PCX or other format and 
converts it into x,y coordinate.

["it" is Big Bang]

Since you asked... from the Big Bang to the formation of atoms is about
10E11 seconds. As for the "color": bright. Very very bright. 

I don't. I believe the current theory of cosmology because it is fairly
well supported by observational evidence (not as well supported as, say
evolution or relativity, but that's another matter). You're the one who
proposes unquestioningly accepting religious dogma as fact (apologies if
you're not actually a creationist).

The line is broader than you think. Theories are supported by evidence.
Miracles are supported by someone's say-so.

I asked around in one of the areas you suggested yourself, and presented
the information I got.  No mention of US landmines was given.

Okay, so you are going to blindly believe in things without reasonable
evidence?  I didn't realize you were a theist.  I am doubting a claim
presented without any evidence to support it.  If you are able to present
real evidence for it, then great.  But unsupported claims, or even claims
by such and such news agency will not be accepted.  If you want to
stick to the sheer impossible, instead of the merely difficult, then
fine.  

The statement that if such a fact is classified, then you 
can't prove it, is a simple matter of pragmatics and the law.  If you 
have access to classified information that you know to be classified,
and you reveal it, there is a good chance that you or someone else 
(the person who revealed it to you), is going to jail.  

I never said that you couldn't prove it to my satisfaction, I merely
said that it was difficult.  (Who said I try and make things easy
for people I am arguing with :) (Unless of course, they need the
handicap).

Actually, IFF is a *format standard*.  It is not a picture file format, sound
file format, but there exist several formats that use the IFF standard.  The
IFF picture standard used by mostly everybody is a FORM ILBM (or just ILBM).
The only 3D IFF specification I know of is TDDD, which is used by Imagine and
it's predecessor, Turbo Silver.   It is possible that some of the other Amiga
packages use another *IFF* spec, but I don't know of any.  Lightwave will load
TDDD FORM's I believe.

CJF> agrino@enkidu.mic.cl (Andres Grino Brandt) asks about Mormons.

CJF> Although I don't personally know about independent sudies, I do know
CJF> a few things.

CJF> One of the more amusing things in the BOM is a claim that a
CJF> civilization existed in North America, aroun where the mystical plates
CJF> were found.  Not only did it use steel and other metals, but it had
CJF> lots of wars (very OT).  No one has ever found any metal swords or
CJF> and traces of a civilization other than the Native Americans.

I was talking to the head of the archeology dept. once in college and
the topic of Mormon archeology came up.  It seems that the Mormon church
is (or was) big on giving grants to archeologists to prove that the
native Americans are really the lost tribe of Israel and other such
bunk.  The archeologists would shake their head knowingly while listening
to them, take the grant, and go off to do real archeology anyway.

: > 
: > I think you're letting atheist mythology

: Great start.  I realize immediately that you are not interested
: in discussion and are going to thump your babble at me.  I would
: much prefer an answer from Ms Healy, who seems to have a
: reasonable and reasoned approach to things.  Say, aren't you the
: creationist guy who made a lot of silly statements about
: evolution some time ago?

: Duh, gee, then we must be talking Christian mythology now.  I
: was hoping to discuss something with a reasonable, logical
: person, but all you seem to have for your side is a repetition
: of the same boring mythology I've seen a thousand times before.
: I am deleting the rest of your remarks, unless I spot something
: that approaches an answer, because they are merely a repetition
: of some uninteresting doctrine or other and contain no thought
: at all.

: I have to congratulate you, though, Bill.  You wouldn't
: know a logical argument if it bit you on the balls.  Such
: a persistent lack of function in the face of repeated
: attempts to assist you in learning (which I have seen
: in this forum and others in the past) speaks of a talent
: that goes well beyond my own, meager abilities.  I just don't
: seem to have that capacity for ignoring outside influences.

: Dean Kaflowitz

Dean,

Re-read your comments, do you think that merely characterizing an
argument is the same as refuting it? Do you think that ad hominum
attacks are sufficient to make any point other than you disapproval of
me? Do you have any contribution to make at all?

Jasen Mabus
RPI student

	I am looking for a hman brain in any CAD (.dxf,.cad,.iges,.cgm,etc.) or picture (.gif,.jpg,.ras,etc.) format for an animation demonstration. If any has or knows of a location please reply by e-mail to mabusj@rpi.edu.

An extremely good example of "circumstantial evidence!"
Every time these right-wing control-freaks start spouting
about prayer in schools, I get this nagging commentary
from the Sermon on the Mount [Matt: 6:5-6] "And when you
pray, do not imitate the hypocrites: they love to say their
prayers standing up in the synagogues and at the street
corners for people to see them.  I tell you solemnly, they
have had their reward.  But when you pray, go to your
private room and, when you have shut your door, pray to
your Father who is in that secret place."

But no. THEY want PUBLIC prayers, the better to manipulate
children.  "Amen" indeed.

I hope you don't mind if I say "amen" to this? :-)

Darwin fish can be bought from:
--
"JOIN THE DARWINNERS (TM) Send $6 to receive your official Evolving
Fish..  wherever you want to spread the good news!  Darwinners, 6671
Sunset Blvd., Ste. 1525, L.A.,CA 90028 THE GREATEST THEORY EVER TOLD!"

Jenny

I have a lots of .cgm files produced by NCAR Graph Utility V3.00.

They are all color graphs, and I want to print them out. 

The printers I own are Postscript, and HP 7475a. Anyone who have 

experiences in this please tell me, e-mail me will be very nice.

Or if someone knows how to convert those .cgm  files into .gif

pcx, .bmp .... , it will helps a lot. 

: >Prove it. I have a source that says that to date, the civilian death count
: >(er, excuse me, I mean "collateral damage") is about 200,000.
: 
: I have _never_ seen any source that was claiming such a figure.  Please
: post the source so its reliability can be judged.  

This figure would not simply be deaths by bombing, but also death later
from disease (the sewer system of Baghdad was deliberately targeted) and
starvation. I believe (but when I get a copy of the latest research in
June or July) that this was the figure proposed in the Census Bureau 
report on the matter. The report was suppressed and the CB attempted to
sack the author of the report, but failed due to procedural technicality.
The author is now on permanent leave. 

You should have heard Prof. McNally , from my days as an astronomy
undergraduate, denouncing photon pollution. It was easy to imagine him
taking practical steps to modify the sodium lamps on the street
outside Mill Hill observatory with a 12-gauge shotgun :-)

However, seriously, it is possible to limit the effects of
streetlights, by adding a reflector, so that the light only
illuminates the ground, which is after all where you need it. As a
bonus, the power consumption required for a given illumination level
is reduced. Strangely enough, astronomers often seek to lobby elected
local authorities to use such lighting systems, with considerable
success in the desert areas around the major US observatories. At
least, thats what McNally told us, all those years ago.
( British local authorities couldn`t care less, as far as I can see )

I suppose that the "right" to dark skies is no more than an aspiration,
but it is a worthwhile one. Illuminated orbital billboards seem especially
yukky, and are presumably in the area of international law, if any, although
I do find the idea of a right to bear anti-satellite weapons intriguing.

Hello there!

A week ago a guy asked what a .SCO file was - well I researched a bit and foundout that it is just another RIX file. .SCI files are 320x200 files and .SCO files are 1024x768 files! alle the other formats (800x600, 640x480...) are also called something like .SC(character).

930425

Let's start with the name "Rosicrucian". I took me a long time to come
to the conclusion that there is a difference between a *member* of a
"rosicrucian" body and BEING *a* ROSICRUCIAN. So when you say that you met
some 'rosicrucians' you mean "members of a group that calls themselves
rosicrucian". At least that is what your observation suggests :-)

Response:

This makes much sense to me.  This is also true of most religions.
There is a difference between being a *member* of a group of people
who call themselves 'Hindus' or 'Christians' or 'Pagans' and actually
*BEING* any of these.  The social groups tend to make very important
requirements about not belonging to other 'religions'.  I find that
the ideal described by the holy texts of most religions can be
interpreted in very similar ways so that one could presume that
'mysticism' is the core of every religion and Huxley's 'Perennial
Philosophy' is the Great Secret Core of all mystical trads. :>

Tony:

I'd prefer if you would have stated up front that it was the Lectorium
Rosicrucianum, only because they may be confused, by some readers of this
newsgroup, with the Rosicrucian Order AMORC based (the USA Jurisdiction) in
San Jose, CA; this being the RC org with the most members (last time I
looked). Of course, "most members" does not *necessarily* mean "best".

Response:

Certainly true.  I didn't know there WERE any groups which called themselves
'Rosicrucians' that didn't associate with AMORC.  Sure, I've heard all the
hubbub about the Golden Dawn and Rosae Crucis in relation to all these
Western esoteric groups, but hadn't heard about other 'Rosicrucians'.
I'll admit my bias.  I live in San Jose. :>

Tony:

"You'll have to trust me" when I tell you that if that
lecture/class/whatever had been presented by AMORC, it is unlikely that you
would have had the same impression, i.e., you'd probably have had a
positive impression more likely than a negative one, IMHO. 

Response:

This may be slightly off.  I've met some of these Rosicrucians and have
a couple friends in AMORC.  The stories I've heard and the slight contact
I've had with them does not give me the hope that I'd be received with
any kind of warm welcome.  I still like to think that most people who
are involved with stratified relationships (monogamy, religion, etc.)
are in DEEP pain and hope to heal it within such a 'cast'.

Tony:

It is curious to know that 3 other RC 'orders' (in the USA) claim to be *non-
sectarian*.

Response:

I'd like to know at least the addresses of the 'other orders' which call 
themselves 'Rosicrucians' and especially those which are 'nonsectarian'.
Is this 'nonsectarian' like the Masons, who require that a member 'believe
in God by his/her definition'?

Tony:

I don't see nothing *fundamentally* wrong with "us containing
something divine"... And yes I don't like phrases like "eternal bliss"
either! :-)

Response:

Let alone us *BEING* something divine. ;>

Tony:

BTW, I have read the intro letters of the LRC which they will mail you free
of charge.

Response:

Addresses, phone numbers of groups?  I'm into networking.  Thanks.

Yes, each is a form of the other.

Charley an anarchist?  No, just true words being spoken in jest.

[deleted]
[deleted]
Ok, so those scientists can get around the atmosphere with fancy
computer algorythims, but have you looked ad the Hubble results, the
defects of the mirror are partially correctable with software (see
those jupiter pictures for results), but is the effects are completely
reversable, why is there going to be a shuttle mission to fix it?

The way I see it (and please, astromomers give me a swift net-kick in
the butt if i'm out of the ball park), the astromers are making the
best of limited possiblities, there's only one hubble, and the shuttle
makes another in the near future a non-thought.  Perhaps those self
same billboards could have small optical receptors of a limited kind
mounted on the reverse sides of the mirror's (if that is what is used)
and then the whole thing becomes a giant array telescope...

-- 

It is interesting to note in the past few days' correspondance that some
believe that poor old New Mexico is not capable of hosting a commercial
space launch business.  For many reasons, it can, and we here on the front
lines see no reason why it should not.  The 'spaceport political publicity'
referred to the other day had its intended effect - the state of New Mexico
did establish the start of the necessary government infrastructure to back a
commercial space port.  The commanding general at WSMR is in full support of
dual-use for the facilities.  The WSMR location also has some strategic
advantages in the form of necessary infrastructure and controlled air space
to support the project.  Just because the folks involved have not done the
traditional aerospace-equivalent of vapor-ware by inviting folks out to kick
non-existent tires but have been merely doing their job to prepare for
launch, don't think that nothing has happened.  From my interactions with
the MACDAC folks, I get the impression that they want to set a firm,
believable launch date based on vehicle readiness and not just some fiction
to plug a space on a calendar.  I believe that all will happen this summer
and don't worry, the locals here are planning to let everyone know when it
does occur.
Stephen Horan
shoran@nmsu.edu

	Is there room for nudists? After all, if you believe most upstanding
moral churches, nudity IS a sin...

The killing of the ATF agents is a separate issue.  My point is that many
children died because of Koresh defending himself.  Did he have what you
call the "moral right" to keep those children in a dangerous enviroment in
order to defend himself?  

Thank you.  I thought I was in the twilight zone for a moment.
It still amazes me that many people with science backgrounds 
still confuse the models and observables with what even they
would call the real world.

-jim halat

G'day all!

Does anyone know anything about front end for POVRay (X11 version)?
I mean are there things like user friendly modeller for POVRay, or any
modellers which will let me design a scene and produce a file which POVRay
can then read?
Cheers,
Tomek

+------------------------------------------------------+

I have already made the clear claim that

Don't mind my saying this but the best example of obfuscation is to
condemn without having even your most basic facts straight. If you
want some examples, go back and look at your previous posts, where
you manage to get your facts wrong about the fatwa and Khomeini's 
supposed infallibility.

According to this reasoning there are no rights, at least none that I can think 
of....

Let's see.  Do I have a right to unpolluted air?  No, because the majority
drive cars and use goods that create air pollution in the manufacturing process.

Do I have the right to clean water?  I guess not, by the same reasoning.
I could go on with these examples for a long time....

Look at Nazi Germany.  Because of the majority, Jews, homosexuals, blacks,
and others that were different had no rights.  In fact they were terrorized, 
imprisoned, and slaughtered.  In this country did blacks have the right to be
free from slavery?  I guess not, because the majority said that slavery was 
good for them.

I think that a right has a moral imperative.  If a law, imposed by the majority,
is immoral, one should not follow it.  In fact, one should do everything in
his/her power to stop it. Of course, that doesn't mean that I would lose all
common sense to break the law, just because I thought it was immoral.  I pay
my Federal Income Tax even though I am morally opposed to the U.S. Government
taking my money and spending it on weapons of mass destruction and terrorism.
This is precisely the point I am trying to make.  We should _persude_ people 
by logic, pointing out that it is in their self-interest to let all have
equal rights in all aspects of life, including adequate housing, food, and
medical care.  I just happen to think that for a full life the aesthetic of
beauty and joy is also necessary.  That is why I consider an uncluttered
night sky a right.

Have you ever been out in the desert, away from local lights, and most people?
The sky is dark and transparent.  The Milky Way is ablaze with more detail
than you thought possible.  The beauty and wonder takes your breath away.

Now imagine you live in the worst ghetto, say in L.A. Due to light pollution
you have never seen a dark sky.  You might in fact never, not in your whole
life, ever see the majesty of the night sky.  Every where around you, you see
squalor, and through your life runs a thread of dispair. What is there to live
for?  

I admit these two scenarios are extreme examples, but I have seen both.
I, for one, need dreams and hopes, and yes, beauty, as a reason for living.
That is why I consider an uncluttered night sky a right.

George

Personal attacks?  

Deliberate misinterpretation of a persons statement?  (By cutting out
the part of the statement, he tries to blunt the thrust of the sentence.
He never addresses the issue of extreemist peace people not holding true
to their ideals.)

Ignoring the challenge?  (He ignores the challenge that extreemists for
peace tend to be quite insistent that everyone accept their ideals for
the world, and have even turned quite violent.  (Witness, Chicago, summer
1968)).

Paranoia?  (He assumes that anyone who argues against his viewpoint must
"masturbate over Guns'N'Ammo.")

Fire up the Oven, it isn't hot enough!

Does anyone out there know of a site that might have
a 2-D spline fit routine useful for interpolation?

thanks for any help,
Craig Morioka

1. Please take this out of sci.space.

2. Ayn Rand was not only born in Russia, but educated there. A lot
of her philosophy reflects not only a European education but a 
reaction against certian events in Russia while she lived there.
I've heard that to the extent there is a division of modern philosophy
between the "Continental" and British/American schools, Rand belongs in
the former in terms of methodology et al, even though she was trying to
say things that would belong in the latter school.

I.e. she was trapped in the language of Kant and Hegel, even though
she was trying to say (at times) much different things.

I suppose you don't know what about we have discussed.
We discussed about error(s) in XV 2.21 which shows images only as 8bit,
and my suggestion above works perfectly with it.

So far I have seen a colormap editing window in XV -- that is, there
must be a colormap anyway. The problems you present are exist anyway,
and I didn't tried to solve them at all, because I would not make such
problems to my programs in the first place.

Gamma and color corrections are easily done to 24bit image
as I presented. There's no need make tricks from 8bit/quantized image
back to 24 bit image.

Ok, you're writing about situation that user want edit images as 24bit
and user want edit individual colors -- your questions, by the way,
jumps off the discussion a bit.

My solution doesn't work, because there's no colormap withing real 24bit
image -- you see, user see 24bit image; going back to 8bit is silly.

About changing individual colors in 8bit/quantized/rasterized image:
changing individual colors in colormap is useless in most
cases if the image is quantized and rasterized -- small change may
make serious errors to anywhere in the image.
XV allows this feature, but I don't recommend to use it with the
mentioned type images.

Moreover, XV is not a paint program; you can only make those global
changes. In full 24bit XV, changing individual colors sounds like
paint program job.
If person have 8bit screen, there's need for tricks to get the
original 24bit image modified. Because user don't see full 24bit
image, there's need to make approximations and it is not possible to
modify individual colors but individual pixels or pixel groups (if
image is rasterized). To select indiavidual color, there could be 7x7
cursor window which shows true color image in cursor window area --
selecting individual color is possible from that.

Ok, I don't have thought very much 24bit painting programs, never seen
such in good view and are not planned to make such. Not to mention
24bit painting program in 8bit screen...

It saved 8bit/quantized/rasterized images as 24bit jpegs; jpeg is not
designed for that.
Also, human expect that 24bit will be saved as 24bit image; say,
person would like to crop part of the image and save it, then it is
expected that the image still is the same. So, XV were designed
without thinking about human interface and how human expect the
program work -- design error.

I have heard XV were designed first for 8bit images/files, but
it were not good idea to take full 24bit images without making
major change to the original design.

So, even all screen images are 8bit, the processed images and saved
images could have been 24bit very easily, instead of 8bit.

Before anybody will make a note: yes, I may as well make a lift where
'up' means that the lift goes down and 'down' means that the lift goes
up, and put a note on this design solution to the manuals -- however,
even the manuals tells the correct situation, it doesn't solve the problem.
(Americans: the lift is just an example :)

Well, my text may be a bit hard reading, hopefully you suggeeded to
read it.

Supernovae put out 10^53 or 10^54 (i forget which, but it's only an
order of magnitude...).  Not in gamma rays, though.  You'd hafta get
all of that into gammas if they were at 9 Mpc, but if a decent fraction
of the SN output was in gammas it could reasonably be extragalactic 
(but closer than 9 Mpc).  I dunno SN theory so well, but I can't think
of how to get many gammas out.  Maybe I should look it up.

Big radio galaxies can put out 10^46 erg/s *continually*.  That's just
in the radio... there are a lot of gammas around them, too, but "bursts"?
Nah.

Neither of these should be taken as explanations... just trying to show
that those energies *are* produced by things we know about.

That's assuming it could get built by them.

Of course,  it would probably sport Cruise missile Racks,
Sidewinder Missile tubes,  Bomb Points,  extra drop tanks,
a Full ECM suite, Terrain following radar  and stealth

IT might not fly,  but a technology demonstrator does
not require  actual flight.

O

I also would like code or algorithms to do this.

In fact, I am interested in sources for code and/or algorithms that
convert 2D graphical objects into other 2D graphical objects that
will render into the same image. i.e. Bezier curves to B splines,
or splines to circular arc segments, or B splines to polgons, etc...

an image of the moon has been caught in a weather satellite images of the earth.
it appears in both the 0430-1500UT ir and visual images of the earth.
the GIF images can be down loaded from vmd.cso.uiuc.edu and are named
CI043015.GIF and CV043015.GIF for the IR and visual images respectively.

pretty cool pictures;  in the ir it's saturated but in the visual image
details on the moon are viewable.

the moon is not in the 1400UT images.

I am not sure that I am supposed to post this mail here. However
during the last year, while I was involved in developing graphical user
interface (GUI) applications, I have enjoyed being personally part of this
news group wherin I got some interesting information which helped me in my
work. I am posting my resuming hoping that people working in my area would
make time to look at it.
_
						304A WestGate Hall,
						ISU, Ames, IA 50011.
						(515) 294 1525
						April 29, 1992.

Dear Prospective Employer:

I am seeking employment as a software engineer with interests in software
design and development, in which I can utilize my experience in hardware, 
C & C++ programming, graphical user interface (GUI), operating systems and
computer networking.

I received my Bachelors of Engineering (BE) degree in Electronics
Engineering in 1990 and a M.S. degree in Electrical Engineering in Dec 1992 
from Iowa State University. Currently I am enrolled in a M.S. in Computer
Engineering at Iowa State University.

During my Masters program, as a research assistant since Jan 1991, I have
published three papers including one in the IEEE Transactions on Magnetics.
These papers are a reflection of the quality of my research and my ability
to learn new concepts quickly.

I have been involved in many projects involving software developments and
have extensive experience programming in C, C++, Fortran and Assembly Level. 
I am also familiar with operating systems like Unix, Ultrix and MS-DOS.
I am familiar with Motif/X programming and currently, as a research assistant,
am involved in graphical user interface (GUI) design using the multiplatform 
GUI toolkit XVT++. My experiences also include areas such as operating systems
and computer networks, through course work and projects. I was involved in the
study of the design and development of the internals of the XINU operating
system. I have also been involved in many TCP/IP programming projects in

While in college I learnt the importance of clear and concise communication.
I have also learned a lot about time management. In my M.S. program I
have maintained a 3.70 grade average, worked 20 hours per week and
have enjoyed being involved in many other extra curricular activities.

My software experiences along with my hardware background (Electronics
Engineering) would be very helpful in my career goals as a software engineer.
I request that my qualifications may kindly be reviewed. I would like to
have an interview to discuss your employment needs and my career goals. 
I am eager to hear from you soon.

Sincerely

S.N. Rajesh (rajsnr@iastate.edu)

...........................................................................
				RESUME

			     S. N. RAJESH
		          __________________

    Work		                             Residence
305 Coover ISU,					304A WestGate hall, ISU
Ames, IA 50011    				Ames, IA 50011
               					(515) 294-1525

        	      E-mail: rajsnr@iastate.edu

OBJECTIVE	To obtain a challenging position as a Software Engineer 
		involving software design and development, in which I can
		utilize my experience in hardware, C & C++ programming, 
		graphical user interface (GUI), operating systems and 
		computer networking.

EDUCATION	Currently enrolled in a M.S. in Computer Engineering, Iowa state
		University, Ames, Iowa 50011.	

		M.S. in Electrical Engineering, Iowa State University, Ames, 
		Iowa 50011 (Dec 1992)   	GPA	Major: 3.8/4.0
							Overall: 3.7/4.0.	
		Thesis: Probability of Detection (POD) Models for Eddy Current
		Nondestructive Evaluation (NDE) Methods. 
		(Project Funded by Federal Aviation Administration (FAA))

		B.E. in Electronics Engineering, Bangalore University,
 		Bangalore, India (Jan 1990).

PUBLICATIONS	S. N. Rajesh, L. Udpa and S. S. Udpa, "Numerical Model Based
		Approach for Estimating Probability of Detection in NDE 
		applications", IEEE Transactions on Magnetics, Vol. 29,
		No. 2, March 1993. 

		S. N. Rajesh, L. Udpa and S. S. Udpa, "Estimation of 
                Eddy Current Probability  of Detection using 3D Finite Element
		Model", presented at the 19th Annual review of Progress in
		Quantitative Nondestructive Evaluation Conferance, San Diego,
		California (Jul 1992)

		S. N. Rajesh, L. Udpa, S. S. Udpa and N. Nakagawa, "Probability
                of Detection Models for Eddy Current NDE Methods", Presented at
                the 18th Annual Review of Progress in Quantitative
                Nondestructive Evaluation Conferance, Brunswick, ME (Jul 1991)

RELEVANT * Implemention of Operating Systems * Electronic Devices and Circuits
COURSE     * Computer Network Architecture     * Pulse and Digital Circuits
WORK       * Advanced Computer Communications  * Artificial Neural Networks
           * Introduction to Supercomputing    * Pattern Recognition
           * Microprocessors and Computer      * Digital Image Processing
	     Organization                      * Digital Signal Processing
           * Computer Technology and           * Integrated Circuits and Design
	     Programming

PROJECTS	* Implementation of the fork system call on the Xinu operating
		  system. Also involved in the implementation of a CPU
		  scheduling algorithm taking into consideration the aging
		  of processes. This project involved the study of the design
		  and development of the internals of the Xinu operating system.
		* Design and development of an interrupt driven keyboard driver.
		  This project involved a thorough understanding of device 
		  drivers.
		* Design and development of a Unix like tree structured 
		  directory which allows the creation of subdirectories and
		  organization of files accordingly. This project included the
		  implementation of routines such as mkdir, rmdir, cd, ls and
		  rm to support the directory structure.
		* Analysis of methods of congestion control in computer
                  networks.
                * Implementation of the Bellman-Ford routing algorithm for a
                  distributed network. The communication between network nodes
                  was based on UDP. This project involved programming in C++.
		* Simulation of the various digital logic functional units 
		  starting from the basic gates to registers, counters, adders,
		  multipliers, arithmetic logic unit (ALU) and so on. The
		  project involved extensive C programming in an Unix
		  environment.

WORK		Research Assistant, Center for NDE, Iowa State University, Ames,
EXPERIENCE	IA 50011 (Aug 1992-Present)
                * Work involves development of applications using graphical
                  user interface (GUI) toolkits. Familiar with programming in
                  a Motif/X environment. More recent work involves development
                  of multiplatform GUI applications, in C++, using the portable
		  GUI toolkit XVT++.
                  (This project is supported by NIST (National Institute of
                   Standards and Technology)).

		Research Assistant, Center for NDE, Iowa State University, Ames,
		IA 50011 (Jan 1991-Aug 1992)
		* Work involved developing software for modeling electromagnetic
		  NDE techniques such as the eddy current method. It also
		  involved optimization of the code on the parallel computer
		  Cray YMP.
		  (This project was supported by FAA and involved working in
		   close contact with the aircraft industry (Boeing)).

		Trainee Engineer, Indian Telephone Industries, Bangalore India.
		* Work involved design and development of a microprocessor
		  (8085) based programmable telephone dialler used in cordless 
		  telephones. Involved programming of a 8085 microprocessor 
		  to control the pulsing actions of the relays in a telephone 
		  circuit (Jan-Nov 1989).

COMPUTER	Languages: C, C++, Fortran, Assembly Level.
SKILLS		Software: Motif/X, XVT, Computer Graphics (Hoops), TCP/IP 
			  programming, Image Processing Utilities, SDRC-Ideas, 		  		  Autocad.
		Operating Systems: Unix, Stellix, Ultrix, MS-DOS.
		Systems: DEC Series, HP and Sun Workstations, Macintosh, 
			 Stellar.
		Parallel Systems: Cray YMP, IBM 3090J, MasPar, N-Cube.

HONOURS AND 	* Iowa State University Graduate College Scholarship 
ACTIVITIES     	  (Jan 1991-Present)
		* Ranked 42 out of over 20,000 students in Bachelors of
		  Engineering Entrance Examination ensuring full
		  scholarship, from the state, to pursue my Bachelors's degree.
		* Current member of IEEE

Just to throw it out there:  The mass of the telescope is 11,600 kg 
(25,500 lb).  I do not know what Space lab weighs, but I believe it is
less.  Can anyone verify??

Also, remember that weight was not the only concern, as many others have 
noted, just one possible concern.  I was responding to a statement that
if you can boost it, why can't you land it.  Those are too different
problems.

ROB
-- 

That's fascinating.   I heard that the Chinese, rather than
the Italians, invented pasta.

Throw away the FAQ.   We can all just ask Mr O'Dwyer, since he can
define the thing that the rest of us only talk about.

: 
: If the Bible is such incredible proof of Christianity, then why aren't
: the Muslims or the Hindus convinced?
: 
: If the Qur'an is such incredible proof of Islam, then why aren't the
: Hindus or the Christians convinced?

If God exists, why aren't atheists convinced?

--

From: Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org

If this facility is in Kaliningrad, this is not near Moscow,
it is in fact the ex-East Prussian Konigsberg, now a Russian
enclave on the Baltic coast.  It is served by ships and rail, 
and the intrepid traveller in Europe would find it accessible 
and might even want to try to arrange a tour (??).

* Fred Baube (tm)         *  In times of intellectual ferment,
* baube@optiplan.fi       * advantage to him with the intellect
* #include <disclaimer.h> * most fermented
* May '68, Paris: It's Retrospective Time !!  

Bear in mind that a lot of the Vandenberg launch traffic is military and
at least semi-secret.  They aren't interested in publicizing it beforehand.

Or perhaps you write a freely available, GPLed unix for commonly
available computer platforms (i386/i486 machines) and become a catalyst
for a major netwide project which produces a better unix-like os than
many commercial counterparts (see comp.os.linux for details).  Or maybe
you found a Legue for Programming Freedom to fight restrictive litigation
and software patenting practices, thereby protecting the creative freedom
so vital to continuing progress in our field.  Or maybe you start up
a gnu project, and produce by far and away the best c/c++ compiler
for unix there is, not to mention other valuable utilities.

Some hackers make significant contributions without selling out their
ideals.  As for Bill Gates, after pawning of grossly inferior software
onto the PC market for ten years, if he ever was a hacker, he deserves
to have his name eradicated from the Annals of Computer Hackery.

As for me, I like running linux+X+countless other packages, without
paying a dime.  On the other hand, I have no problem purchasing motif
or other good software, as long as Microsoft hasn't fouled it with their
inept input.

My 2 cents worth, flames will be patiently ignored. :-)

Jean.
-- 

[...]

This reminds me... my fuzzy brain recalls that somebody was thinking
of reviving the San Marco launch platform off the coast of Kenya,
where the Copernicus satellite was launched around 1972.  Is this
true, or am I imagining it?  Possibly it's connected with one of the
Italian programs to revive the Scout in a new version.

That old platform must be getting pretty rusty, and there ain't a lot
of infrastructure to go with it...

Try searching for DMORF, I think it's located on wuarchive.wustl.edu in a
mirror directory... I've used it before, & it was pretty good!

Probably because it IS rape.

So nothing.  It may work for some, but not for others: it doesn't give any
insight into an overall God or overall truth of a religion- it would seem to be
dependent solely on the individual, as well as individually-created.  And since
Christians have failed to show us how there way of life is in any wy better
than ours, I do not see why the attempt to try it is necessary, or even
particularly attractive.

Well, we will nerver know for sure if we were told the truth or not, but at the
very least there is a bit more evidence pointing to the fact that, say, there
was a military conflict in Vietnam 25 years ago, then there is a supernatural
diety who wants us to live a certain way.  The fact that Jesus warned against
it means nothing.  *I* warn against it too.  Big deal.

This is not true.  The first two choices here (life and death) are scantily
documented, and the last one is total malarky unless one uses the Bible, and
that is totally circular.  Perhaps it be better to use the imagination, or
one's ignorance.  Someone else will address this I'm sure, and refer you to
plenty of documentation...

How is this?  There is nothing more disgusting than Christian attempts to
manipulate/interpret the Old Testament as being filled with signs for the
coming of Christ.  Every little reference to a stick or bit of wood is
autmoatically interpreted as the Cross.  What a miscarriage of philology.

Well, since we have skeptical hearts (thank goodness,) there is no way to get
into us.  Here we have the irreconcilable difference: Christians glorify
exactly what we tend to despise or snub: trust/belief/faith without knowledge. 
If I am lucky one day and I happen to be thinking of God at the same time my
enkephalins go up, then I may associate this as a sign of God (it will "feel"
right, and I will trust without knowing).  Maybe.  Religosity does not seem to
be anything that is conclusively arrived at, but rather it seems to be more of
a sudden affliction...
I believe many of us were willing to die for what we believed, many of us were
not.  The question is, is suchg an attitude reflective of a _correct_ or
healthy morality.  IT would seem not to be.  The same thing could reflect
fanaticism, for example, and is any case an expression of simple selfishness.
-- 

--Adam

Yes, but that's because interstellar grains are very poor radiators, not
remotely black bodies.  As a consequence they are a lot warmer than the
"ambient".
 
When I was in graduate school, a long time ago, we used 10,000 deg K with
a DILUTION FACTOR of 10+4 for representative values of the radiant energy
background in the galaxy due to starlight.  

This all would also implicate that in order for the sinning 2 month
old baby to get forgivance, he or she has to ask for help from Jesus.
Somehow I find this a little bit amuzing.

Cheers,
Kent

I think C.S. Lewis has argued that medieval people did not all think the
world is flat.

However, this argument goes both ways. Pretend someone telling Plato that
it is highly probable that people do not really have souls; their minds
and their consciousness are just something their brains make up, and
their brains (their body) is actually ahead of their mind even in 
voluntarly actions. I don't think Plato would have been happy with this,
and neither would Paul, although Paul's ideas were quite different.
However, if you would _read_ what we discuss in this group, and not
just preach, you would see that there currently is much evidence in
favour of these statements.

The same applies to the theory of natural selection, or other sacred
cows of Christianity on our origins and human nature. I don't believe
in spirits, devils or immortal souls any more than in gods.

Ah, you said it. You believe what you want to. This is what I had assumed
all along. 

You might be as well planting Satan's seeds, ever thought of this?
Besides, you haven't yet explained why we must believe so blindly,
without any guiding light at all (at least I haven't noticed it).
I don't think this is at all fair play on god's part. 

Your argument sounds like a version of Pascal's Wager. Please read the
FAQ, this fallacy is discussed there.

And I failed to get help from the HS because I had a wrong attitude?
Sorry, Dan, but I do not think this spirit exists. People who claim to have
access to it just look badly deluded, not gifted. 

Petri

:>... Also, as implied by other posters, why 
:>do you need to boost the orbit on this mission anyway? ...
:You don't *need* to, but it's desirable.  HST, like all satellites in
:low Earth orbit, is gradually losing altitude due to air drag.  It was
:deployed in the highest orbit the shuttle could reach, for that reason.
:It needs occasional reboosting or it will eventually reenter.  (It has
:no propulsion system of its own.)

Has any thought been given as to how they are going to boost the HST yet?
Give it a push?  I can see the push start cartoons now :-).

Ultimately it rests with personal opinion...in my opinion. :-) 

The question doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it would be better to ask,
"What makes a democracy better than [for example] a totalitarian
regim?"

a user on my bbs "accidentally" deleted his vga driver for his oak77 card and
has no backup.  i was wondering if someone knew of an ftp site (and path,
please!) where such a thing might be obtained.  thanks.

existance.  

***************************************************************************
	I just thought it necessary to help defend the point that Jesus 
existed.  Guys: Jesus existed.  If he didnt, then you have to say that 
Socrates didnt exist cuz he, like Jesus, has nothing from his hands that 
have survived.  Only Plato and others record his existance.  Many others 
record Jesus' existance, including the Babylonian Talmud.  Sorry guys, the 
argument that Jesus may not have existed is a dead point now.  He did.  
Whether he was God or whether there is a God is a completely different 
story, however. 
*****************************************************************************

Okay, the earth has a magnetic field (unless someone missed something?)

Okay if you put a object in the earth magnetic field, it produces electricty..

Now the question. Can you use electricity to power a space/low earth orbit
vehicle? and i fyou can, can you use the magnetic field of the earth to power
it??
Can the idea of a "dragless" satellite be used in part to create the electrical
field?

After all the dragless satellite is (I might be wrong), a suspended between to
pilons, the the pilons compensate for drag.. I think I know what I want to say,
just not sure how to say it..

A dragless satellite sounds interestingly enough liek a generator.

==

Does anyone on this group use this program? It stacks up pretty well to 
Corel Draw, and since I don't have a CDROM, it was the best buy...

Actually, you get a ton of weapons and ammunition, 70-80 followers, and hole
up in some kind of compound, and wait for . . . . :-)

: >

:   Precisely my position.  

:   As a newbie, I tried the point-by-point approach to debate with
:   these types.  It wasted both my time and my lifespan.  Ignoring
:   them is not an option, since they don't go away, and doing so
:   would leave one with large stretches of complete anonymity in this
:   group.

Bob,

I've posted here long enough to see your name a few times, but I
can't recall any point by point approach to anything you've
contributed. But I'm old (probably senile) and I may have just
forgotten, if you could post an example of your invincible logic, it
might jog my memory.

Now I have a couple raytracing questions.
Just so you know I'm using PovRay 1.0 (both MS-dos and Unix) and I'm generating Targa files of varying size.

1) ok, so I can view these wonderful pictures on my screen.  What's the best way  to get them on to paper?  Would it be possible to take it to Kinko's and have   them make an actual picture on paper from it?

2) I was thinking about making a small animation bit with different raytraced 
frames.  Is this a bad idea?  Any tricks to it?

3

: In article <C5Mw03.9qr@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu>, bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu
: > I'd say that what one chooses to observe and how the observation is
: > interpreted and what significance it's given depends a great deal on
: > the values of the observer. Science is a human activity and as such,
: > is subject to the same potential for distortion as any other human
: > activity. The myth that scientists are above moral influence or
: > ethical concern, that their knowledge can be abstacted whole and pure
: > from nature untainted by the biases of the scientist, is nonsense.

: Bill, this is wonderfully phrased. I assume you understand that your
: statement is also undermining such human constructs as religion
: as well.

Kent,

I'll accept this as a compliment although I'm always a little paranoid
when visiting a.a, thanks. Yes I do know the extent of the statements
relevence, it's what I think of as human nature. I'm not sure it
undermines either religion or atheism since both claim special
knowledge about the Truth and since such claims are always suspect,
all we can learn from it is that humans are a very arrogant species.
My point is that we cannot ignore human nature when examining human
claims. The trick here then, is to find some way to abstract our
infinitely fallible nature from whatever reality is out there so we
can see what there is to see. I can think of no way this can be done.

Corel Draw 4 will be able to do this as it will include the Photopaint stuff that 
the PC version got with version 3. Don't hold your breath though.

--

Here is someones "biblical" claim for the characteristics of Satan:

And separately:

We have here three distinct claims concerning the results of the devil's
decision making, a specific desire, and a physical description.  Now, in
support (aside from the minor detail that an author seldom writes an unbiased
account of the opposition) we see:

ISA 14:12  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the
morning!  how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken
the nations!

ISA 14:13  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend  into
                                              --------------------
heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit
also upon the mount of the congregation,  in  the  sides  of the north:

ISA 14:14  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I  will
be like the most High.

ISA 14:15  Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to  the  sides
of the pit.

Doesn't say sits on God's throne.  Says will exhault throne above the stars.

DAN 10:12  Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for  from the
first  day  that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to
chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard,  and  I am
come for thy words.

DAN 10:13  But the prince of the kingdom of Persia  withstood me
                    ------------------------------
one  and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes,
                                        ------------------------
came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

DAN 10:14  Now I am come to make thee understand what  shall be-
fall  thy  people  in  the latter days: for yet the vision is for
many days.

See who is being discussed?

EZE 28:12  Son of man, take up a lamentation  upon  the  king of
                                                     -----------
Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up
-----
the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

EZE 28:13  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;  every  pre-
cious  stone  was  thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the dia-
mond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the em-
erald,  and  the  carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy ta-
brets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that  thou
wast created.

EZE 28:14  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have
set  thee  so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast
walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

EZE 28:15  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day  that  thou
wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

EZE 28:16  By the multitude of thy merchandise they  have  filled
the  midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore
I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain  of  God:  and  I
will  destroy  thee,  O  covering  cherub,  from the midst of the
stones of fire.

EZE 28:17  Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty,  thou
hast  corrupted  thy  wisdom  by reason of thy brightness: I will
cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that  they
may behold thee.

EZE 28:18  Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of
thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will
I bring forth a fire from the midst  of  thee,  it  shall  devour
thee,  and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight
of all them that behold thee.

EZE 28:19  All they that know thee among the people shall be as-
tonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be
any more.

dps@nasa.kodak.com Pontificated: 

Can you cite an example of this.  Please post an answer as I
don't want to receive e-mail.  

Dear Netters:

I am looking for C source code to test if a 3D point lies within a

concave polyhadra. I have read a few articles about this and know

that two solutions exist: parity counting and angle sumation. Both

ideas are pretty simple but coding is not. So I wonder if there exists

public domain source code for this.

    Another 'rough' solition (don't care special cases) is ray-casting

which is reported to be more or less independent of number of faces

consisting the polyhedra if a special space indexing is used
(M. Tamminen, et. al., 1984. "Ray-casting and block model conversion
using a spatial index". Computer-Aided-Designs. 4, 1984, 60-65).
But the prerequirement is that all the facets of polyhedra have their
normal pointing outside of polyhedra. How this could be done in practice ?
I have a set of trangles consisting the polyhedra. How could I ensure their
normals pointing outside the polyhedra ? The paper mentioned above assumed
this is already the case.

   I have also read some standard computer graphics textbook about hidden
line removal. It says "if we make the rule that the normal of a facet pointing

toward viewer standing far away from the polyhedra...". Again how to make
sure ?

   Any pointers are welcome ?

   Yaohong Jiang
   Queen's University
   Kingston, Ont.

I would not be too quick to say that they are almost certainly untrue.
Even strong minded people may fall back on childhood indoctrination,
grasp at straws, or do other strange things when faced with extreme
suffering, not to mention physiological problems which may lead to
diminished mental capacity.

At the risk of restarting an old argument and accusations of appeal to
authority I remind readers of what I posted a while back as a kind of
obituary for the late atheist Dr. Albert Sabin. In an old interview
rebroadcast on public radio just after his death he told about a time
a few years before when he was stricken with a very serious illness.
He admitted to having cried out to God while critically ill and on a
respirator. As it turned out he recovered and lived several more years.
After his recovery he attributed this to early indoctrination. Don't say
it couldn't happen to you, or that it hasn't happened to others, even if
you are one of the few people who have experienced things like this.
People are different. I admire Dr. Sabin for admitting his human weakness
in that instance. I would not think less of Asimov for similar weakness.

Nevertheless I agree that these reports are unsubstantiated and may
well be untrue. In any case they are not evidence for anything besides
the power of early indoctrination and human frailty.

Wow! You got me thinking now!

This is an interesting question in that recently there has been a 
move in society to classify previously "socially unacceptable" yet legal 
activities as OK.  In the past it seems to me there were always two 
coexisting methods of social control.

First (and most explicit) is legal control.  That is the set of 
actions we define as currently illegal and having a specifically defined set 
of punishments.

Secondly (and somewhat more hidden) is social control.  These are 
the actions which are considered socially unacceptable and while not covered 
by legal control, are scrictly controled by social censure. Ideally (if 
socialization is working as it should) legal control is hardly ever needed 
since most people voluntarilly control their actions due to the pressure of 
social censure.

The control manifests itself in day-to-day life as "guilt" and 
"morality".  I've heard it said (and fully believe) that if it weren't for 
the VAST majority of people policing themselves, legal control would be 
absolutely impossible.

Lately (last 50, 100 years?) however there has been a move to 
attempt to dissengage the individual from societal control (ie. if it ain't 
illegal, then don't pick on me).  I'm not saying this is wrong, merely 
that it is a byproduct of a society which has:

	1) A high education level,
	2) A high exposure to alternative ideas via the popular media,
	3) A high level of institutionalized individual rights, and
	4) A "me" oriented culture.

I guess what I'm saying is that we appear to be in a state of transition, 
here in the western world in that we still have many ideas about what we can\
can't allow people to do based entirely on personal squeamishness, yet we 
are fully bent on maximizing individual freedoms to the max as long as 
those freedoms don't impinge on another's.

IMHO society is trying to persue two mutually exclusive ends here.  While we 
appreciate and persue individual rights (these satisfy the old 
territoriality and dominance instincts), the removal of socialized, 
inherent fears based on ignorance will result in the 
continued destabilization of society.  

I got no quick fix.  I have no idea how we can get ourselves out of this 
mess.  I know I would never consent to the roll-back of personal freedoms 
in order to "stabilize" society.  Yet I believe development of societies 
follow a Darwinian process which selects for stability.  Can we find a 
social model which maximizes indiv. freed.'s yet is stable?  Perhaps it is 
possible to live with a "non-stable" society?

Anybody see a way out?  Comments?

PS.  Therefore answer to question #3:  We don't.  Do we want to?

Phil Trodwell 

Yes.  Here's what you should do.

Keep the vertices in an array, and have the polygons (triangles are okay,
but n-sided polygons are slightly more efficient) store the indices into
the array of the vertices that comprise them.  You set a flag for each
vertex when you transform it, so you don't have to transform any vertex
more than once; you also do backface elimination before processing the
polygon, so that vertices that belong only to bacfacing polys don't have
to be transformed at all.

Whenever you transform a vertex, check if it's on the far side of the hither
plane; if it is, you can project it right away and store the result.

Then do your Z clip; any vertices that get produced will have to have their
projection done at that stage.

I too am a Jules Verne collector, and can tell you that though tough 
to find, it *is* out there.  I keep my eyes open all the time for his
books at various Bay Area used book stores, and every once in a while
get *very* lucky.  You just need diligence.  I don't know if the book
store situation near JSC is as good as the Bay Area, but good luck.
I have also had excellent luck at the Antiquarian Book Fair which comes
to SF every other year, though the prices are more in the $100-$200 range
than the $50 you want to spend.  My guess is that *if* you find it,
you won't need to spend even that much, since most people don't care 
about it.  I think I paid about $15 for my dust-jacket-less but otherwise
good condition copy, which I found one day at a small bookshop that happened
to have just bought a lot of random books at an estate sale.  

Of course, if you re willing to buy blind, you can put a $2 advertisement
in the Antiquarian Bookseller's newsletter (the exact title of which escapes
me at the moment.)  _Five Weeks in a Balloon_ is not the rarest of Jules
Verne books.  Someone has it for sale somewhere, and the AB is the way to 
find it.  In fact, I would be surprised if you didn't get multiple offers
of sale.  Of course, that takes the fun out of hunting for it yourself...

Good luck.

I am using an ibm dx-50 with EISA and local bus....and I need to get a
local bus video card....

The only hitch is that I need one that will allow me to do the fastest
anims (or flics) from ram. I have 64-megs of ram in 16-meg simms

I am using 3D-Studio from Autodesk and Imagine from Impulse...
They both write out in the .FLC format....

So does anyone know what would be the best card for showing fast anims
from ram.... ie. like the orchid, Diamond Stealth Viper, ATI....etc

any help would be appreciated.... ( I am trying to circumvent the single-
frame route)

Society is the collection of individuals which will fall under self-defined
rules.  In terms of UN decisions all the sets of peoples who are represented
at the UN are considered part of that society. If we then look at US federal
laws provided by representatives of purely US citizens then the society for
that case would be the citizens of the US and so on.

"Acceptable" are those behaviours which are either legislated for the
society by representatives of that society or those behaviours which are
non-verbally and, in effect, non-consciously, such as picking your nose on
the Oprah Winfrey show, no-one does it, but there is no explicit law against
doing it. In many cases there are is no definition of whether or not a
behaviour is "acceptable", but one can deduce these behaviours by
observation.

In an increasingly litigation mad society, this trap is becoming exceedingly
difficult to avoid. With the infusion and strengthening of ethnic cultures
in American (and Australian, to bring in my local perspective) culture the
boundaries of acceptable behaviour are ever widening and legislation may
eventually become the definition of moral behaviour. For instance, some
cultures' dominant religion call for live sacrifice of domesticated animals.
Most fundamental christians would find this practice abhorrent. However, is
it moral, according to the multicultural american society? This kind of
problem may only be definable by legislation. 

Obviously within any society there will be differences in opinion in what is
acceptable behaviour or not, and much of this will be due to different
environmental circumstances rather than merely different opinions.  

One thing is for sure, there is no universal moral code which will suit all
cultures in all situations.  There may, however, be some globally accepted
mores which can be agreed upon and instantiated as a globally enforcable
concept. The majority of mores will not be common until all peoples upon
this earth are living in a similar environment (if that ever happens).

Brian Ceccarelli wrote (that's me):

Kent Sandvik responds:

I think I see where you are coming from Kent.  Jesus doesn't view
guilt like our modern venacular colors it.   

"Feelings" have nothing to do with guilt.  Feelings arise from the state of 
being guilty.  Feeling and guilt are mutally exclusive.  Feelings are a 
reaction from guilt.  Jesus is talking about the guilt state, not the 
reaction.   Let me give you an example:

Have you ever made a mistake?  Have you ever lied to someone?  Even a
little white lie?   Have you ever claimed to know something that you really 
didn't know?  Have you ever hated someone?  Have you ever been selfish?
Are you guilty of any one of these?   The answer is of course, YES.  You
are guilty.  Period.  That is it what Jesus is getting at.  No big surprise.  
Feelings do not even enter the picture.   Consider Jesus's use of the word
"guilt" as how a court uses it.

Jesus is concerned that everyone should admit that they are guilty of being
imperfect.  The Bible calls it the state that we are all sinners.  We all do
bad things.  Even the most insignficant thing that we do wrong is proof of our 
guilt that we are all sinners.     It is it in our nature to do bad things. 
We are sinners, therefore we do bad things.  Being a sinner is fact.  It is
not a pleasant fact.  But it is just a fact.  We are not perfect.   Calling us
sinners should have no more emotional charge to you than calling you a
human being.  Guilty as charged.

You can handle your guilt in one of two ways:  Acknowledge you
made a mistake, learn from it, and try to not do it again--in
the meantime, not punishing yourself for it:  which is the
way Jesus wants you to handle or it.  This is the healthy way.

Or two, the destructive way:  put yourself down, slap yourself
and feel like crap, never forgive yourself, force yourself to
say a thousand Hail Marys . . . even to suicide.  This the way 
Jesus does NOT want us to deal with it.   All people fall into this 
category to some extent in their lives.

Jesus is not in the business of saving us from this guilt
feeling.  Jesus is in the business of showing us how much he
loves us despite our guilt.  Jesus knows we are guilty.  That
isn't new to him.  It is no big deal to him. He just wants you to realize 
that this sinful nature destroys the relationship between you and him.
That is what he wants you to know.  Why, because he wants to 
have your company.  You are immensely valuable to him.
Jesus wants a relationship with you, however, in our present
sinful nature, we are incapable of having this relationship.  

God is perfect.  We are not.  You cannot fit a square peg into
a round hole.  However, God has provided a way for us to
change our nature so that we can have a relationship with him.
God has provided Jesus, so that whosoever just believes in
Jesus, will have their nature changed.  The Holy Spirit will
move it.  And now divine nature is now within lives our very
being--and us and God communicate with each through his
unifying Holy Spirit.  The benefits of this are endless.  For
with the divine nature living within us, we can now see
our imperfections better.  We can now head them off at the pass.  With
the power of the Holy Spirit living in us, we now have his power
to help us overcome our shortcomings.   Because the divine nature lives 
within us, we can now understand profound Bible passages that never before
we could understand.  Because the divine nature now lives within us, we now 
have authority over demonic forces.  And lastly, because the divine 
nature now lives within us, we have eternal life--for the Holy Spirit
is eternal.

The relationship with Jesus is of the utmost importance.  Because
it is not what you do in life that qualifies you to belong to
heavenly kingdom, it is your relationship to the living God.
Remember what Jesus said at the tail end of Matthew when he
separated the "goats from the sheep".   Many people in the
last day will ask him, "Didn't I prophesy in your name and do
miracles, and do good things in your name?"   And what did Jesus say?
"Depart from me, for I never *knew* you."  That is the cornerstone of 
Christianity, Kent.  Jesus must know you as his friend.  It is your 
relationship to Jesus.  If he is your friend and you are his, you will
be counted among those who will share in his inheritance in heaven.  

Good.  It shows that you have a strong self-image--that you
love yourself.  That is the second greatest commandment Jesus
taught.  If only more people could do as you do.   As I said before, 
in the common english venacular, "feeling guilty" has a
different meaning than the state of guilt.

I believe what we all need in our personalities is a lot less ego,
a lot less self-centeredness, and a lot more unconditional love.

Now where did I put my little red book?  Or was that green?

Jim

Rick, I think we can safely say, 1) Robert is not the only person
who understands the Bible, and 2), the leadership of the LDS church
historicly never has.  Let's consider some "personal interpretations"
and see how much trust we should put in "Orthodox Mormonism", which
could never be confused with Orthodox Christianity.

        In one of his attacks on Christians, the Mormon Apostle Bruce R.
McConkie said they "thrash around in...darkness in trying to identify
Elohim and Jehovah and to show their relationship to the promised
Messiah." He also said Christians are wrong to believe "that Jehovah is
the Supreme Deity [God the Father]," and that Christ "came into
mortality" as His "Only Begotten" Son. McConkie then stated what Mormons
believe today to be the truth about the matter. He said that "Elohim is
the Father" and "Jehovah is the Son."

  "Being thus aware of how far astray the religious intellectualists
  have gone in defining their three-in-one God, it comes as no surprise
  to learn that they thrash around in the same darkness in trying to
  identify Elohim and Jehovah and to show their relationship to the
  promised Messiah. Some sectarians even believe that Jehovah is the
  Supreme Deity whose Son came into mortality as the Only Begotten. As
  with their concept that God is a Spirit, this misinformation about the
  Gods of Heaven is untrue. The fact is, and it too is attested by Holy
  Writ, that Elohim is the Father, and that Jehovah is the Son who was
  born into mortality as the Lord Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah.
  (Promised Messiah, p. 100)

        Notice that McConkie said the Christians are as wrong about
their "three-in-one God" and their belief that "God is a Spirit" as they
are in their understanding of who "Elohim" and "Jehovah" are. Before
examining McConkie's attack and its validity, we shall read a few more
statements by McConkie and other Mormon sources concerning the words
"Elohim" and "Jehovah." McConkie stated:

  "...the chief designation of Christ that has been preserved for us in
  the Old Testament, as that ancient work is now published, is the
  exalted name-title Jehovah. (Promised Messiah, p. 367)

  "_Elohim_, plural word though it is, is also used as the exalted
  name-title of God the Eternal Father, a usage that connotes his
  supremacy and omnipotence, he being God above all Gods. (Mormon
  Doctrine, p. 224)

        Agreeing with McConkie on the question of who "Elohim" and
"Jehovah" are, the Apostle James E. Talmage stated:

  "_Elohim_, as understood and used in the restored Church of Jesus
  Christ, is the name-title of God the Eternal Father, whose firstborn
  Son in the spirit is _Jehovah_ -- the Only Begotten in the flesh,
  Jesus Christ. (Jesus the Christ, p. 38)

        "A Doctrinal Exposition by The First Presidency and the Twelve"
apostles of the Mormon Church states that "God the Eternal Father...[is]
designate[d] by the exalted name-title 'Elohim'..." (Articles of Faith,
p. 466) "...Christ in His preexistent, antemortal, or unembodied
state...was known as Jehovah..." (Articles of Faith, p. 471)

        Today Mormon leaders teach that "Elohim" in the OT refers to God
the Father and "Jehovah" refers to Christ. McConkie attacked Christians
for saying "Jehovah" can refer to the Father. He stressed that these two
"name-titles" should not be changed around so that Christ is called
"Elohim" and the Father is called "Jehovah." "...the Father...is Elohim,
not Jehovah.... Jehovah is Christ, and Christ is Jehovah; they are one
and the same person." (Promised Messiah, p. 111)

        In the OT of the KJV of the Bible, the Hebrew word "Elohim" is
used to refer to the true God, false gods and goddesses, and the judges
of Israel. When referring to the true God, "Elohim" is translated with a
capital "G." When referring to false gods and goddesses and the judges
of Israel, it is translated with a small "g." It is translated four
times as "judges" (Exod. 21:6; 22:8-9), once as "judge" (1 Sam. 2:25),
twice as "mighty" (Gen. 23:6; Exod. 9:28), once as "angels" (Ps. 8:5),
once as "godly" (Mal. 2:15), once as "great" (Gen. 30:8), and once as
"very great." (1 Sam. 14:15)

        The word "Jehovah" is the traditional pronunciation of the
tetragrammation YHWH or YHVH with the vowel points taken from the word
"Adonai."  Many people believe the true pronunciation of the
tetragrammation was Yahweh or Yahveh. However, since "Jehovah" rather
than Yahweh is the word used by Mormonism, this section will also use
"Jehovah" instead of Yahweh to examine the validity of the claims of
Mormon leaders regarding that name. "Jehovah," unlike "Elohim," is never
used of false gods. It is the personal name of the triune God of the
Bible. In the KJV, "Jehovah" is rendered primarily "LORD," sometimes
"GOD," and rarely "Lord."

        Now that we understand something about the words "Elohim" and
"Jehovah" and their use by Mormon leaders, we shall consider the Apostle
McConkie's attack on Christians for believing the Father is "Jehovah."
In trying to prove that "Jehovah" refers exclusively to Christ, McConkie
cited several verses from the Bible. Some of these verses and McConkie's
interpretation of them will be examined to see whether he was right.
Remember, McConkie said the Father is not "Jehovah;" He is only
"Elohim." The first example we shall consider involves McConkie's
interpretation of Ps. 110:1. Of this verse he stated:

  "Of whom spake David when his tongue was touched by the Holy Spirit
  and he testified, "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right
  hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?" (Ps. 110:1.) Two
  Lords are here involved: one is speaking to the other; one is greater
  than the other; one is making provision for the triumph and glory of
  the other. Who are they and what message is contained in this
  Messianic prophecy?
  "What think ye of Christ?" our Lord asked certain of his detractors
  toward the end of his mortal ministry. "Whose son is he?" Is Christ
  the Son of God or of someone else? Is he to be born of a divine Parent
  or will he be as other men -- a mortal son of a mortal father? That he
  was to be a descendant of David was a matter of great pride to all the
  Jews. And so they answered, "The Son of David."
  David's son? Truly he was. But he was more, much more. And so our
  Lord, with irrefutable logic and to their complete discomfiture,
  asked, "How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The Lord
  said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine
  enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his
  son?" That is, if he is only the Son of David, how is it that the
  great King, acting under inspiration, calls him Lord and worships him
  as such? And we might add: _Who is the other Lord, the one who spake
  unto David's Lord?_ Can there be any question as to how Jesus is
  interpreting the words of the Psalm? He is saying that it means: '_The
  Father said unto the Son, Elohim said unto Jehovah_, sit thou on my
  right hand, until after your mortal ministry; then I will raise you up
  to eternal glory and exaltation with me, where you will continue to
  sit on my right hand forever.' (Promised Messiah, pp. 101-102)
  (emphasis added)

        Agreeing with the above statement by McConkie, the following
remark in the Mormon pamphlet _What the Mormons Think of Christ, p. 6
reads: "The Lord [Elohim, the Father] said unto my Lord [Jehovah, the
Son]..." (brackets in original)

        McConkie clearly stated that it is "Elohim" the Father who is
speaking to "Jehovah" the Son in this Psalm. However, when one looks at
the Hebrew word translated "LORD," it becomes apparent that either the
first "LORD" is not the Father or else the Father is "Jehovah." Either
way McConkie is wrong. The Psalm reads:

  "The LORD [Jehovah] said unto my Lord [Adon], Sit thou at my right
  hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (Ps. 110:1)

        The first "LORD" in this verse is "Jehovah" who Mormonism says
is Christ, not the Father. The second "Lord" is the Hebrew word "Adon"
(singular for "Adonai," meaning master or lord). If the first "LORD" is
the Father and the second "Lord" is the Son, then the Father is
"Jehovah" and the Son is "Adon." However, if the Father is not "Jehovah"
as McConkie claimed, then the first "LORD" is "Jehovah" the Son, but
who, then, is "Adon?" Obviously the Father is "Jehovah" in this Psalm,
and His Son is "Adon."

        Another example involves Isa. 42:6 about which McConkie stated
the following:

  "I the Lord have called thee in righteousness," _Isaiah quoted the
  Father as saying of Christ_, "and will hold thine hand, and will keep
  thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the
  Gentiles." (Isa. 42:6.) (Promised Messiah, p. 81) (emphasis added)

        McConkie said the Father was speaking of Christ in this passage
which reads:

  "I the LORD [Jehovah] have called thee in righteousness, and will hold
  thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the
  people, for a light of the Gentiles. (Isa. 42:6)

        According to McConkie, "I the LORD" refers to the Father, and
"thine" and "thee" refer to Christ. However, the "LORD" who is speaking
is "Jehovah" which means either McConkie was wrong about who is speaking
or else the Father is "Jehovah."

        Another example involves Ps. 22:7-8. Of these verses McConkie
stated:

  shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the Lord
  that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in
  him." (Ps. 22:7-8.) _The fulfillment, as Jesus hung on the cross_, is
  found in these words: "The chief priests mocking him, with the scribes
  and elders, said, He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be
  the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will
  believe him. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will
  have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. The thieves also, which
  were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth." (Matt.
  27:41-44.) (Promised Messiah, pp. 530-531) (emphasis added)

        Ps. 22:7-8 reads as follows:

  "All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they
  shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD [Jehovah] that he would
  deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

        McConkie said these verses had their fulfillment "as Jesus hung
on the cross." That means the person who was scorned in these verses was
Christ. Who, then, was the "LORD" in whom he trusted? It was "Jehovah"
the Father.

        Another example involves Ps. 31:13 and Ps. 41:9. Regarding them,
McConkie stated the following:

  "With reference to the conniving and conspiring plots incident to our
  Lord's arrest and judicial trials the prophecy was: "They took counsel
  together against me, they devised to take away my life." (Ps. 31:13.)
  "Mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my
  bread, hath lifted up his heel against me." (Ps. 41:9.) (Promised
  Messiah, p. 532)

        Apostle McConkie said these Psalms refer to Christ's "arrest and
judicial trials." We shall first consider Ps. 31 and then Ps. 41. While
McConkie only quoted verse 13 of Ps. 31, verse 14 will also be included
to give a complete understanding of the matter.

  "For I have heard the slander of many: fear was on every side: while
  they took counsel together against me, they devised to take away my
  life. But I trusted in thee, O LORD [Jehovah]: I said, Thou art my God
  [Elohim]. (Ps. 31:13-14)

        McConkie said verse 13 referred to Jesus Christ. Verse 14 goes
on to tell that He (Christ) trusted in the "LORD" who is called His
"God" or "Elohim." Mormonism teaches that the God above Jesus is
"Elohim" the Father. Verse 14, however, reveals that the "Elohim" of the
man Jesus is "Jehovah" the Father.

        In Ps. 41, McConkie only quoted one verse; however, two verses
will be considered in this examination.

  "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my
  bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
  But thou, O LORD [Jehovah], be merciful unto me, and raise me up, that
  I may requite them. (Ps. 41:9-10)

        McConkie stated above that verse 9 referred to Judas' role in
Christ's death. Since it was Judas who was the "familiar friend" who
"lifted up his heel," the pronouns "mine," "I," "my," and "me" in verse
9 must refer to Christ. Notice that at the beginning of verse 10 there
is a change of pronoun to "thou," which refers to the "LORD" (Jehovah).
Then the pronouns "me" and "I" which refer to Christ are used again.
That means Christ was speaking to "Jehovah" the Father in these verses.

        Another example involves McConkie's following remark about Ps.
        110:4.

  "One of the great Messianic prophecies, spoken by the mouth of David,
  ever after the order of Melchizedek." (Ps. 110:4.) (Promised Messiah,
  p. 450)

        McConkie admitted this is a Messianic prophecy involving Christ.
The question is, What in this verse refers to Christ?

  "The LORD [Jehovah] hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest
  for ever after the order of Melchizedek. (Ps. 110:4)

        Does the "LORD," which is "Jehovah," refer to Christ? If
McConkie is right and Jesus is "Jehovah," but the Father is not, then
the "LORD" would have to refer to Christ. But who, then, is the one
addressed as the "priest forever after the order of Melchizedek?" The
Bible reveals that the one referred to is Jesus Christ (Heb. 5:8-10;
6:20; 7); therefore, the "LORD" (Jehovah) in Ps. 110:4 is the Father.

        Another example involves Isa. 53:4-12. Of these verses McConkie
stated:

  "Of the atoning sacrifice of the future Messiah, Isaiah said...
     The _Lord_ has laid on him the iniquities of us all....
     It pleased the _Lord_ to bruise him... (Promised Messiah, p. 234)
     (emphasis added)

        McConkie rightly said these verses refer to "the atoning
sacrifice of the future Messiah." However, what he failed to mention is
that they also prove that the Father is "Jehovah." Verse 6 reads: "All
we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD [Jehovah] hath laid on him [Christ] the iniquity of us
all," and verse 10 reads: "Yet it pleased the LORD [Jehovah] to bruise
him [Christ]..."

        Obviously the "LORD" who laid on Christ "the iniquity of us all"
and who bruised Him is God the Father who is called "Jehovah" in these
verses.

        Remember, McConkie stated that "some sectarians even believe
that Jehovah is the Supreme Deity," and that Christ "came into
mortality" as His "Only Begotten" Son. He called this concept
"misinformation" that is "untrue." To prove that it is McConkie who is
misinformed and believing untruth, two Scriptural references (2 Sam.
7:14; Ps. 2:7) will be examined. McConkie stated the following regarding
these Scriptures:

  "In the midst of a passage that is clearly Messianic, the Lord says of
  the Seed of David: "I will be his father, and he shall be my son." (2
  Sam. 7:14.) In the second Psalm, the whole of which is also clearly
  Messianic, occurs this statement: "Thou art my Son; this day have I
  begotten thee." (Ps. 2:7.) Paul quotes both of these statements in
  Hebrews 1:5 and says they are prophecies that Christ would come as the
  Son of God. (Promised Messiah, p. 143)

        McConkie cited Heb. 1:5 to show that 2 Sam. 7:14 and Ps. 2:7
refer to Christ who "would come as the Son of God." Since McConkie first
referenced 2 Sam. 7:14, this examination will, too. However, along with
verse 14, verses 11-13 will also be included.

  "And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people
  Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the
  LORD [Jehovah] telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
  And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers,
  I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy
  bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
  He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of
  his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. (2
  Sam. 7:11-14)

        These verses teach that the "LORD" (Jehovah) would have a Son,
the Messiah.
        In the second example McConkie cited Ps. 2:7. This examination
will include verse 8. Notice that it is the "LORD" (Jehovah) who says,
"Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

  "I will declare the decree: the LORD [Jehovah] hath said unto me, Thou
  art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
  Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,
  and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

        McConkie said these verses of Scripture are "clearly Messianic,"
and he acknowledged they teach that "Christ would come as the Son of
God." What he is not willing to acknowledge, however, is that these
Scriptures also teach that the Father is "Jehovah" and that the
"sectarians" who believe "Jehovah is the Supreme Deity whose Son" is
Jesus Christ, "the Only Begotten," are right in their belief.

        Another example involves Mic. 5:4. Of this verse McConkie stated

  "And so, truly, did our Lord act _during his mortal ministry! Truly,
  this is he of whom it is written_: "He shall stand and feed in the
  strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his
  God... for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth." (Mic.
  5:4.) (Promised Messiah, p. 182) (emphasis added)

        According to McConkie, the pronoun "He" at the beginning of Mic.
5:4 refers to Christ "during his mortal ministry." Who, then, is the
"LORD his God?" Mic. 5:4 reads:

  "And he [Christ] shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD
  [Jehovah], in the majesty of the name of the LORD [Jehovah] his God
  [Elohim]... for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

        Obviously the "LORD" of Jesus Christ is "Jehovah" the Father who
is referred to as "Jehovah his Elohim."

        Another example involves Ps. 2:2 and Isa. 61:1. Of these verses

  "A number of Messianic passages speak of "the Lord, and...his
  anointed" (Ps. 2:2), signifying that the Chosen One was consecrated
  and set apart for the ministry and mission that was his. _Jesus
  applied these passages to himself_ by quoting Isaiah's prophecy. "The
  Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek" (Isa.
  61:1), and then saying: "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your
  ears" (Luke 4:21). (Promised Messiah, pp. 182-183) (emphasis added)

        The first source McConkie quoted -- Ps. 2:2 -- reads as follows:

  "The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel
  together, against the LORD [Jehovah], and against his anointed.

        McConkie said the "anointed" one was Christ. If that is true,
who was "Jehovah?" If "Jehovah" is always Christ, who was the "anointed"
one? Obviously "Jehovah" is referring to God the Father and the
"anointed" is indeed referring to Christ. The second source McConkie
cited is Isa. 61:1 which states:

  "The Spirit of the Lord [Adonai] GOD [Jehovah] is upon me; because the
  LORD [Jehovah] hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek;
  he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to
  the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

        The one who was anointed to preach, bind up, proclaim, and open
was Jesus Christ. Who, then, was the one who anointed Him? This verse
says the "LORD" (Jehovah) did the anointing. Again, we face the same
problem. If "Jehovah" does not refer to the Father, but only to Christ,
then Jesus anointed someone, but who? As McConkie pointed out, "Jesus
applied these passages to himself." Therefore, the "Jehovah" who
anointed Christ is God the Father.

        Other examples could be cited to show that McConkie and other
Mormon leaders are wrong when they say God the Father is not "Jehovah."
However, these should be enough to expose their error.

        Now, what about Mormonism's claim that Jesus is "Jehovah," but
He is not "Elohim?" It is true that Jesus is "Jehovah." The following
Scriptures prove this fact:

  "Thus saith the LORD [Jehovah] the King of Israel, and his redeemer
  the LORD [Jehovah] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and
  beside me there is no God. (Isa. 44:6)
  [Jesus said] ...I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and
  was dead... (Rev. 1:17-18)

  "...saith the LORD [Jehovah]...they shall look upon me whom they have
  pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only
  son... (Zech. 12:1,10)
  Behold, he [Christ] cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him,
  and they also which pierced him... (Rev. 1:7)

  "...I am the LORD [Jehovah] thy God, the Holy One of Israel... (Isa.
  43:3)
  ...Ye denied the Holy One [Christ] and the Just... (Acts 3:14)

  "And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of
  the LORD [Jehovah] shall be delivered... (Joel 2:32)
  "...the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth...there is none other name
  under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:10,12)

  "Behold, the Lord GOD [Jehovah] will come with strong hand...his
  reward is with him... (Isa. 40:10)
  ...Behold, I [Christ] come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Rev.
  22:12)

  "...the LORD [Jehovah] my God shall come, and all the saints with
  thee. (Zech. 14:5)
  "...at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. (1
  Thess. 3:13)

  "The LORD [Jehovah] is my shepherd... (Ps. 23:1)
  [Jesus said] I am the good shepherd... (John 10:14)

  "...saith the Lord GOD [Jehovah]. I will seek that which was lost...
  (Ezek. 34:15-16)
  ...the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
  (Luke 19:10)

  "For I am the LORD [Jehovah] thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy
  Saviour... (Isa. 43:3)
  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great
  God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. (Tit. 2:13. See also Jer. 42:5 and
  Rev. 1:5; Mal. 3:6 and Heb. 13:8; 1 Kin. 8:28,39 and John 2:24-25;
  Isa. 25:8 and 2 Tim. 1:10; Ps. 107:24,29 and Matt. 8:26; Prov.3:12 and
  Rev. 3:19)

        While Mormons are right when they say Jesus is "Jehovah," they
are wrong when they say He is not "Elohim." The Bible reveals that
"Jehovah" is the only true "Elohim" there is; all others are false.
Remember, "Jehovah" is the personal name of the triune God who has
revealed Himself in the Bible.

        Before we consider Biblical quotes which show that "Jehovah" and
"Elohim" are not two separate gods as Mormons claims let us first note
that not only are both God the Father and Christ addressed as "Jehovah"
and "Elohim" but so is the Holy Spirit.

  "Whereof the _Holy Ghost_..._said_...This _is_ the covenant that I
  will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my
  laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And
  their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (Heb. 10:15-17)
  (emphasis on "Holy Ghost" and "said" added)
  Behold, the days come, _saith the LORD_ [Jehovah], that I will make a
  new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah...
  I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts;
  and will be their God [Elohim], and they shall be my people.... I will
  forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jer.
  31:31,33-34) (emphasis added)

  "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy
  men of God spake as they were moved by the _Holy Ghost_. (2 Pet. 1:21)
  (emphasis on "Holy Ghost" added)
  "The Spirit of the LORD [Jehovah] spake by me, and his word was in
  my tongue. (2 Sam. 23:2. See also Heb. 3:7-11 with Ps. 95:6-11)

        Let us now continue with the Biblical quotes which show that
"Jehovah" and "Elohim" are not two separate gods as Mormons claim.

  "And when the LORD [Jehovah] saw that he [Moses] turned aside to see,
  God [Elohim] called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said,
  Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.... [Bruce R. McConkie
  acknowledged that "it was" Christ's "voice that spoke to Moses in the
  burning bush..." Promised Messiah, p. 394]
  And the LORD [Jehovah] said...
  And Moses said unto God [Elohim], Behold, when I come unto the
  children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God [Elohim] of your
  fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his
  name? what shall I say unto them?
  And God [Elohim] said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus
  shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto
  you.
  And God [Elohim] said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto
  the children of Israel, the LORD [Jehovah] God [Elohim] of your
  fathers, the God [Elohim] of Abraham, the God [Elohim] of Isaac, and
  the God [Elohim] of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for
  ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. (Exod.
  3:4,7,13-15)

  "And God [Elohim] spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD
  [Jehovah]. (Exod. 6:2)

  "I am the LORD [Jehovah], and there is none else, there is no God
  [Elohim] beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
  (Isa. 45:5)

  "But the LORD [Jehovah] is the true God [Elohim], he is the living God
  [Elohim], and an everlasting king... (Jer. 10:10)

  beside me there is no God [Elohim]. (Isa. 44:6)

  "Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus,
  saith the LORD [Jehovah], whose name is The God [Elohim] of hosts.
  (Amos 5:27)

  "Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's
  [Jehovah's] thy God [Elohim], the earth also, with all that therein
  is. (Deut. 10:14)

  "Wherefore thou art great, O LORD [Jehovah] God [Elohim]: for there is
  none like thee, neither is there any God [Elohim] beside thee,
  according to all that we have heard with our ears. (2 Sam. 7:22)

  "And he said unto them, I am an Hebrew; and I fear the LORD [Jehovah],
  the God [Elohim] of heaven, which hath made the sea and the dry land.
  (Jon. 1:9)

  "For who is God [Elohim] save the LORD [Jehovah]? or who is a rock
  save our God [Elohim]? (Ps. 18:31)

  "Blessed is the nation whose God [Elohim] is the LORD [Jehovah]...
  (Ps. 33:12. See also Ps. 144:15)

  "Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God
  [Elohim], the LORD [Jehovah], the Creator of the ends of the earth,
  fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his
  understanding. (Isa. 40:28)

  "The mighty God [Elohim], even the LORD [Jehovah], hath spoken, and
  called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down
  thereof. (Ps. 50:1)

  "Sing unto God [Elohim], sing praises to his name: estol him that
  rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him. (Ps.
  68:4) [Regarding the word "Jah," Bruce R. McConkie stated: "Jah
  (Hebrew Yah) is a contracted form of Jehovah, Jahveh, or Yahweh -- all
  of which names have reference to Christ, the God of Israel." Mormon
  Doctrine, p. 391]

  "And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from
  Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God [Elohim], whose
  name is called by the name of the LORD [Jehovah] of hosts that
  dwelleth between the cherubims. (2 Sam. 6:2)

  "...the Great the Mighty God [Elohim], the LORD [Jehovah] of hosts, is
  his name. (Jer. 32:18)

  "O my God [Elohim], make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the
  wind....
  Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD
  [Jehovah]....
  That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most
  high over all the earth. (Ps. 83:13,16,18)

        The Bible clearly teaches that "Jehovah" is "Elohim." In fact,
He is the only "Elohim" there is. He is the "true," the "living," the
"mighty," the "great," and the "everlasting Elohim." He is the "Elohim"
of Israel, of all the kingdoms of the earth, and of the heavens. He is
the Creator who made the heavens and all their host and the earth and
all that dwell thereon. "Jehovah's" name is "Elohim of hosts." (Amos
5:27)

        Not only is "Jehovah," "Elohim," but "Elohim" is "Jehovah." The
Bible reveals that "Elohim's" name is "Jah" (Ps. 68:4), "Jehovah" (Ps.
83:18), and "Jehovah of hosts." (2 Sam. 6:2; Jer. 32:18)   The nation
whose "Elohim" is "Jehovah" is blessed. (Ps. 33:12) Clearly, this is not
the "Jehovah" and "Elohim" of the Mormons.

        Another Mormon error regarding "Elohim" and "Jehovah" is the
belief that "Elohim," not "Jehovah," is the Father of all the spirits,
including Jesus. In the Articles of Faith by Apostle James E. Talmage,
"A Doctrinal Exposition by The First Presidency and The Twelve" apostles
states that "God the Eternal Father...'Elohim,' is the literal Parent
of...the spirits of the human race." (p. 466) This "Doctrinal
Exposition" also states explicitly that "Jesus Christ is not the Father
of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth,
for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons and daughters of
Elohim." (p. 473)

        The Apostle Talmage stated that "_Elohim_...is the name-title of
God the Eternal Father, whose firstborn Son in the spirit is
_Jehovah_--" (Jesus the Christ, p. 38)

        The Apostle Bruce R. McConkie stated the following about this
matter: "...Jehovah-Christ...did in fact create the earth and all forms
of plant and animal life on the face thereof. _But when it came to
placing man on earth, there was a change in Creators_. That is, the
Father himself became personally involved. All things were created by
the Son, using the power delegated by the Father, except man. _In the
spirit and again in the flesh, man was created by the Father_. There was
no delegation of authority where the crowning creature of creation was
concerned." (Promised Messiah, p. 62) (emphasis added)

        Mormon leaders claim that "Jehovah-Christ" did not create either
man's spirit or his body. They maintain that the Mormon "Elohim," who is
the father, created man both in spirit and body. The Bible reveals the
truth about who created man.

  "And Moses spake unto the LORD [Jehovah], saying,
  Let the LORD [Jehovah], the God [Elohim] of the _spirits of all
  flesh_, set a man over the congregation. (Num. 27:15-16. See also
  16:20-23) (emphasis added)

  "...the LORD [Jehovah], which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth
  the foundation of the earth, and _formeth the spirit of man within
  him_. (Zech. 12:1) (emphasis added)

  "...the LORD [Jehovah]...made us this soul... (Jer. 38:16)

  "For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for
  the spirit should fail before me, and the _souls which I have
  made_....
  ...saith the LORD [Jehovah]... (Isa. 57:16,19) (emphasis on "souls...I
  have made" added)

  "Behold, I am the LORD [Jehovah], the God [Elohim] _of all flesh_...
  (Jer. 32:27) (emphasis added)

  "Thus saith the LORD [Jehovah], thy redeemer, and he that _formed thee
  from the womb_.
  I am the LORD [Jehovah] that maketh all things... (Isa. 44:24)

  "Thus saith the LORD [Jehovah]...
  I have made the earth, and _created man_ upon it... (Isa. 45:11-12)

  "...God [Elohim] created man upon the earth...
  Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD
  [Jehovah] he is God [Elohim]; there is none else beside him. (Deut.
  4:32,35)

  "Thus saith God [El] the LORD [Jehovah]...he that spread forth the
  earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the
  people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein. (Isa. 42:5)

  "...Thus saith the LORD [Jehovah] of hosts, the God [Elohim] of
  Israel... I have made the earth, _the man_ and the beast that are upon
  the ground... (Jer. 27:4-5) (most emphasis added)

        The Bible reveals that it is "Jehovah" who is the "Elohim of the
spirits of all flesh" and "of all flesh" itself, that it was He who
"formed the spirit of man within him," that He "made us this soul" and
"formed us from the womb." He did indeed "create man."

        If Mormon leaders are right when they say Jesus is "Jehovah,"
then they are wrong when they say he did not create man. If they are
right when they say the father is the one who created man, then they are
wrong when they say he is not "Jehovah."

        Although Mormon leaders teach that Jesus did not create man,
Mormon scriptures teach that he did. The BoM states the following:

  "Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son....
  And never have I showed myself unto _man whom I have created_, for
  never has man believed in me as thou hast....
  Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and
  _man have I created_ after the body of my spirit... (Eth. 3:14-16)

  "For it is I that taketh upon me the sins of the world; for it is _I
  that hath created them_... (Mos. 26:23) (emphasis added)

  "...the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of
  Jacob...is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and
  all things that in them are.
  Behold _he created Adam_... (Mor. 9:11-12) (emphasis added)

        D&C, 93:10 states that "the worlds were made by him [Christ];
_men were made by him_; all things were made by him, and through him,
and of him." (emphasis added)

        Another error by Bruce R. McConkie involving "Jehovah" and his
creation is the belief that "Jehovah" had "many" pre-mortal spirits
helping him create. Included in this alleged group was Joseph Smith, Jr.

  "That he [Christ] was aided in the creation of this earth by "many of
  the noble and great" spirit children of the Father is evident from
  go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these
  materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell." (Abra.
  3:22-24.) Michael or Adam was one of these. Enoch, Noah, Abraham,
  Moses, Peter, James, and John, Joseph Smith, and many other "noble and
  great" ones played a part in the great creative enterprise. (Doctrines
  of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 74-75.) (Mormon Doctrine, p. 169)

        The Bible reveals the truth about this matter:

  "Thus saith the LORD [Jehovah], thy redeemer, and he that formed thee
  from the womb, I am the LORD [Jehovah] that maketh all things; that
  stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by
  myself. (Isa. 44:24)

  "Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of
  the sea. (Job 9:8)

        "Jehovah," by Himself, created all things. He had no alleged
preexistent spirit helpers assisting Him.

        Regarding the Mormon 'Elohim," the Apostle McConkie stated:
"Elohim. plural word though it is, is also used as the exalted
name-title of God the Eternal Father, a usage that connotes his
supremacy and omnipotence, he being God above all Gods." (Mormon
Doctrine, p. 224) He also stated that "Jesus...is above all save the
Father only." (Promised Messiah, p. 363)

        The Bible states that the One who is God above all so-called
gods is the triune God "Jehovah."

  "For the LORD [Jehovah] is a great God [El], and a great King above
  all gods [Elohim]. (Ps. 95:3)

  "For thou, LORD [Jehovah], art high above all the earth: thou art
  exalted far above all gods [Elohim]. (Ps. 97:9)

  "Now I know that the LORD [Jehovah] is greater than all gods
  [Elohim]... (Exod. 18:11. See also Ps. 135:5; Deut. 10:17)

        If Mormon leaders are right when they say "Jehovah" is god the
son and "Elohim" is god the father, these verses from the Bible would be
teaching that the Mormon son is above his father. However, as McConkie
clearly stated, Mormons believe "Elohim" the father, not "Jehovah" the
son, is the "God above all Gods" -- that Jesus is above all except the
father; yet the Bible teaches that "Jehovah" is above all "Elohim."

        At a BYU Dev. on March 2, 1982, Bruce R. McConkie made the
following remark about praying to Jesus:

  "Another peril is that those so involved often begin to pray directly
  to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been
  developed....
  This is plain sectarian nonsense. Our prayers are addressed to the
  Father, and to him only....
  ...Perfect prayer is addressed to the Father, in the name of the Son;
  it is uttered by the power of the Holy Ghost... (Our Relationship With
  the Lord, pp. 19-20)

        McConkie states on p. 335 of his book Promised Messiah that the
Mormons "pray to the Father, not the Son..." On p. 306 of the same book
McConkie states that "Christ [the Son] is Jehovah." This is important to
remember, because although McConkie said prayer is not to be offered to
the Mormon Christ who is "Jehovah," the Bible states repeatedly in the
OT that people prayed to "Jehovah," and He not only heard those prayers,
but He accepted them as valid requests. The following is but a small
sample of the vast number of times people prayed to "Jehovah."

  "In my distress I called upon the LORD [Jehovah], and cried unto my
  God [Elohim]: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came
  before him, even into his ears. (Ps. 18:6)

  "And the LORD [Jehovah] said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy
  supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this
  house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine
  eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually. (1 Kin. 9:3)

  "And said unto Jeremiah the prophet, Let, we beseech thee, our
  supplication be accepted before thee, and pray for us unto the LORD
  [Jehovah] thy God [Elohim], even for all this remnant... (Jer. 42:2)

  "O LORD [Jehovah], I beseech thee, let now thine ear be attentive to
  the prayer of thy servant, and to the prayer of thy servants, who
  desire to fear thy name... (Neh. 1:11)

  "And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this
  prayer and supplication unto the LORD [Jehovah], he arose from before
  the altar of the LORD [Jehovah], from kneeling on his knees with his
  hands spread up to heaven. (1 Kin. 8:54)

  "He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed
  unto the LORD [Jehovah]. (2 Kin. 4:33)

  "Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD [Jehovah], the God
  [Elohim] of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy
  tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years. (Isa. 38:5)

  "I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I
  said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD [Jehovah]; and
  thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin.
  For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when
  thou mayest be found... (Ps. 32:5-6)

        Notice above in Ps. 32:6 that the "godly" pray to "Jehovah."
According to McConkie and other Mormon leaders, that is Christ the very
one to whom McConkie said people should not pray.

        The Bible reveals there is only one true "Elohim," and His name
is "Jehovah." All other "Elohim" are false. They are idols that cause
their followers to commit adultery against the true "Elohim" and
idolatry.

  "For the LORD [Jehovah] is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to
  be feared above all gods [Elohim].
  For all the gods [Elohim] of the nations are idols: but the LORD
  [Jehovah] made the heavens. (Ps. 96:4-5)

  "Thou shalt have no other gods [Elohim] before me. (Exod. 20:3)

  [Elohim]... (Exod. 18:11)

  "And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD [Jehovah] thy God
  [Elohim], and walk after other gods [Elohim], and serve them, and
  worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely
  perish. (Deut. 8:19)

  "Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods [Elohim].
  They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me:
  for if thou serve their gods [Elohim], it will surely be a snare unto
  thee. (Exod. 23:32- 33)

  "Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn
  aside, and serve other gods [Elohim], and worship them. (Deut. 11:16)

  "That ye come not among these nations, these that remain among you;
  neither make mention of the name of their gods [Elohim], nor cause to
  swear by them, neither serve them, nor bow yourselves unto them.
  (Josh. 23:7)

  "...neither walk after other gods [Elohim] to your hurt. (Jer. 7:6)

  [Elohim]... (Jer. 10:10)

  "And they forsook the LORD [Jehovah] God [Elohim] of their fathers,
  which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods
  [Elohim], of the gods [Elohim] of the people that were round about
  them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD [Jehovah]
  to anger. (Jud. 2:12)

  "Shall a man make gods [Elohim] unto himself, and they are no gods
  [Elohim]? Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I
  will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know
  that my name is the LORD [Jehovah]. ( Jer. 16:20-21)

  "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD [Jehovah], choose you
  this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods [Elohim] which your
  fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods
  [Elohim] of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my
  house, we will serve the LORD [Jehovah].
  And the people answered and said, God [Elohim] forbid that we should
  forsake the LORD [Jehovah], to serve other gods [Elohim]. (Josh.
  24:15-16)

        These verses teach that the only true, living "Elohim" in heaven
and on earth is "Jehovah" -- the triune God who made heaven and earth
and all therein.

        "Jehovah" is greater than any "Elohim," because all other
"Elohim" are idols. The reality behind them is demonic. (Deut. 32:17)
"Jehovah Elohim" has given explicit warnings and guidelines regarding
these false "Elohim." He told His people not to have any "Elohim" but
Him. He told the people that if they left Him for the false "Elohim,"
those "Elohim" would be a snare to them, and they would be hurt and
would perish. He warned the people to "take heed" that their "heart be
not deceived" into worshiping, serving, swearing by, and making
covenants with false "Elohim." "Jehovah Elohim" told His people He would
eventually judge all false "Elohim" and their followers.

        Despite these warnings and guidelines, "Elohim's" covenant
people forsook Him and believed in and worshiped the false "Elohim's" of
the people they came in contact with. Ju. 10:6 states that "the children
of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD [Jehovah] and served
Baalim, and Ashtaroth, and the gods [Elohim] of Syria, and the gods
[Elohim] of Zidon, and the gods [Elohim] of Moab, and the gods [Elohim]
of the children of Ammon, and the gods [Elohim] of the Philistines, and
forsook the LORD [Jehovah], and served not him."

        This examination has shown that the "Elohim" of Mormonism, like
the "Elohim" in Ju. 10:6 is not the true "Jehovah Elohim." Therefore,
the people who leave the true "Elohim" for the Mormon "Elohim" will do
"evil...in the sight of the LORD [Jehovah]."

        Although McConkie attacked Christians for their belief in a
triune God who is Spirit and for their belief that God the Father
[Jehovah] sent His Son into the world, these beliefs are true. God is
triune; He is Spirit; He is "Jehovah;" and He did send His Son into the
world to redeem mankind.

        It is obvious from this examination that it is not the
Christians who "thrash around in...darkness" about who "Elohim" and
"Jehovah" are. One wonders what "Holy Writ" McConkie had in mind when he
stated that it attests to the fact that "Elohim is the Father, and that
Jehovah is the Son." He certainly did not mean the Bible which teaches
that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all the one "Jehovah Elohim."
He apparently did not mean the D&C either, because chapter 109, verses
1,4,9-10, 14,19,22,24,29,34,42,47,56,68,77 refer to the Father as
"Jehovah."

Summary

        Obviously Joseph Fielding Smith's statement that the Mormons
"have a clear and perfect understanding of the nature of God" (Doctrines
of Salvation, 1:279) is not accurate. The Mormon gods are not the true
God as Mormonism claims, but are idols which cause their followers to
commit adultery against God and idolatry.

        In answer to Jesus' question, "But whom say ye that I am,"
Mormons say Jesus is someone different from the Jesus who is revealed in
the Bible and whom the apostles preached. Therefore, anyone trusting in
the Mormon Jesus is believing in "another Jesus" whom Paul warned about.

        Bernard P. Brockbank, of the First Quorum of the Seventy,
admitted in the May 1977 issue of The Ensign, a Mormon publication, that
the Mormon Jesus is different from the Christian Jesus. He stated that
"it is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different
Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints." (p. 26)

        The people who believe in the Mormon Jesus are committing
adultery against God and idolatry. They do not have the Son; therefore,
they do not have the Father, and they do not have eternal life. As the
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie rightly stated: "Salvation comes only by
worshiping the true God." (Promised Messiah, p. 163) McConkie also
rightly stated that "the mere worship of a god who has the proper
scriptural names does not assure one that he is worshiping the true and
living God," because the "true names of Deity" can be applied to "false
concepts of God." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 270) Remember that the Apostle
Stephen L. Richards admitted that Joseph Smith, Jr., gave "a new
conception of God and the Godhead." (Contributions of Joseph Smith, p.
1)

        It is important for the people who have left the true triune God
revealed in the Bible to repent and return to Him. They must forsake the
sins of idolatry and adultery which they are committing in Mormonism.

  "...all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from
  me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD
  [Jehovah], the fountain of living waters. (Jer. 17:13)

  "Thou shalt make no covenant with...their gods [Elohim]. (Exod. 23:32)

  "...Put away the strange gods [Elohim] that are among you, and be
  clean, and change your garments. (Gen. 35:2)

  "...flee from idolatry. (1 Cor. 10:14)

        It is necessary that Christians heed the warnings of the Bible.
If they do, they will not fall into the sins of adultery against God and
idolatry. Remember, to know the "only true God" is eternal life. (John
17:3)

Within a few months, I'll be looking for a job in 3d computer graphics
software.  I'm in need of info on companies that do it.  There's nothing
in any of the FAQ's for this group, and nothing at siggraph.org (at least
I couldn't find anything.)  The last Computer Graphics Career Handbook was
dated 1991, had info on 40 companies, but nothing specific on any of them.

Can people please direct me towards more current and detailed sources of
information?  I'll post a summary of sources if there's interest.

Also, could you please e-mail me, our news server is on the fritz. :(

Thanks,
Brandon

I need recommendations on imaging workstations. As a minimum, I have the
following requirements:

- High resolution graphics (Black and white) for display of Fax images.
- Support the display of multiple simulataneous windows:
     Fax image, 3270 emulation window to IBM host, etc...
- High speed network interface for 3270, image data, etc...
     (16Mb Token ring, EtherNet, etc...)
- Mouse

Any information/experience would be appreciated.

Thanks,

car.

I hope there is not one- with a subject like this you just have a spiral.  What
would then be a morality of a morality of morals.  Labels don't make arguments. 
One really needs a solid measuring stick by which most actions can be
interpreted, even though this would hardly seem moral.  For example "The best
thing for me is to ensure that I will eat and drink enough.  Hence all actions
must be weighed against this one statement."  whatever helps this goal is
"moral", whatever does not is "immoral"

Of course this leads such a blank space: there are so many different ways to
fulfill a goal, one would need a "hyper-morality" to apply to just the methods.

Seems to me we only consider something moral or immoral if we stop to think
about it long enough  :)  On the other hand, maybe it is our first gut
reaction...  Which?  Who knows: perhaps here we have a way to discriminate
morals.  I don't instinctively thing vegetarianism is right (the same way I
instinctively feel torture is wrong), but if I thought about it long enough and
listened to the arguments, I could perhaps reason that it was wrong (is that
possible!?  :) )  See the difference?

-- 

--Adam

Ad hominem, sarcastic innuendo?  Absolutely.  Forgotten?  Hardly.
Bored?  Not really.   I try not to confuse "life on a.a." with life.

I just can't overcome the urge to tease/taunt folks who bound FAQ-less
onto a.a. with such a chip on their shoulder.  To listen to you,
one might think we belonged to some church!

I appreciate the patience of others who questioned your posting
on a line-by-line content basis, though it's hard to know what
impact that might have had, as compared to, say, "shovelling".

I think I only lamented that, whatever the initial satisfactions,
past a certain point circular abuse-heaping was just that.

Sincere questions:  Why are you here?  What are you looking for?

well, IMHO (and i am just a nobody net.user) henry spencer is to
sci.* as kibo is to alt.* and rec.*....

....but i could be wrong...(did anybody mention the illuminati)

kitten
--

[Description of Boeing study of two-staged spaceplane using
supersonic ramjets deleted.]

Apparently you *didn't* read the whole thing.  You continue to miss the point.

Counselling that only provides alternatives to abortion would be just as
biased as counselling that only provides *abortion* information.  How about
providing counselling that will give a woman help in finding what *she* is
comfortable with.

Your adoption-funding idea may be a good one.  Any idea if it is feasable?

Making adoption easier on the birth-mother may help reduce abortion, but
it will *not* eliminate the need for it.  Abortion is not done just because
the mother can't care for the child and doesn't feel good about giving it
to strangers.  Abortion is done because the mother can not afford the
*pregnancy*.

Then please justify why being "human" automatically makes something valuable.
And why that includes the unborn.

No, they are not guaranteed to become productive members of society.  Even
if they do that is *MANY YEARS* in the future--until which they are a burden
on someone, or society.  There is also the matter of the mother.  Forcing
her to carry a pregnancy to term at a critical time in her life could prevent
her from being a productive member of society.

Ok, look.  It's like this.  We *are* footing the bill.  Maybe they will
take choice A.  Maybe they will take choice B.  Maybe they will take choice
C.  They can't afford any *one* of them.  If they take choice A we'd have
to pay them, say $5.  If they take choice B it would cost us $20.  If they
take choice C it will cost us $20 now and a hell of a lot more for the next
18 years.  Which one sounds the most realistic for us to be willing to pay
for?  Now some people happen not to like choice A.  Other people happen
not to like choice C (paying for it, that is).  C has been around and paid
for for years.  Even though it means we spend a lot of money, we can't in
conscience refuse to pay for it.  Now A has been around and is perfectly
legal, but it hasn't been funded in the past.  Now A is going to be funded
but some people object.  They don't like the idea of their tax money going
to pay for choice A.  So we could refuse to fund A at all.  Then those
women who can't afford any of those choices will be forced to take choice
B or C, which will cost *all of us* more money.  Most of us don't see any
reason at all why *more money* should be spent to the effect of *removing
personal choice* from some women.  The alternative is to fund A if that is
what the mother chooses.  We will also still fund B and even C if *that*
is what the mother chooses.  However, some women will certainly choose A,
and that will then save us $15 we otherwise would have had to spend.  Your
"taxes" are not being raised to fund a choice you object, they are being
*lowered* because we will fund a choice that is *legal*, despite your
objections to it.  (Actually, your taxes are not really going to go down,
as I'm sure you would point out.  But the amount that is saved in that
area can help out in another--like our massive debt.)

Those other procedures you mention only cost money.  There is no savings
in other procedures that would be required down the road without them.
(In fact, there could be additional costs down the road *because* of them.)
This is quite different from the case of abortion.

This is bullshit.  We are *not* refusing "to make the alternative affordable
too".  If we refused to pay for the more expensive choice of birth, *then*
your statement would make sense.  But that is not the case, so it doesn't.
If Clinton tried to block funding for pre-natal care and delivery (or left
it out of his health-care plan), I would certainly object.  I would also be
quite surprised.

Yes, but probably not your definition of it, or for the reasons you think.

YOU STUPID FUCK!  *WE DO* want to fund *all* the choices.  *YOU* are the
one who wants to *NOT* fund all the choices.

Your humble opinion is still wrong.  Even with easy adoption, there is still
the fact that pregnancy takes several months.  Months in which a young woman
could need to be getting an education.  (like finishing High School, entering
college, finishing college, getting a job...things that are much harder to
do if you have to "take a break" for a few months...things that have a massive
impact on her future productivity.)

You *can* have a conversation with the "mentally incompetant".  And even
though *you* personally may refuse to have a conversation with "people
you just don't like", it is still *possible* for others to have a conversation
with them.  It is *not* possible for *anyone* to have a conversation with
a fetus.

He was still biologically independent.  At least to the same extent you are
now.  He consumed nutrients and digested them in the normal manner.  He
breathed his own air.  A fetus on the other hand, gets it's nutrients already
digested by the mother.  It gets its oxygen from the mother as well.  That
is not biologically independent.

Awareness is only *part* of what makes a "member of society".  It is the
minimal conceivable requirement, yet many people seem to think that something
without awareness could still be important enough to justify the suffereing
of a true member of society.  I keep asking, but I still haven't seen a real
justification for why the life of a non-sentient creature should be worth the
suffering of a sentient being.  (I haven't read every response on the threads
I've been asking on, yet, so we'll see if I see one later.)

Anyone who can program in UNIX has a lot of experiences in the real world.

(about my reply)

It a society that is constantly on the verge of flaming, Usenet, diplomacy
is the best way to ensure the voice of reason gets through, isn't it?

Kevin, unfortunately you are now delving into field I know too little
about, algorithms. Your reasoning, as I see it, is very much along the
lines of Roger Penrose, who claimed that mathematical 'insight' cannot
be algorithmic in his book _The emperor's new mind: Concerning
computers, minds, and the laws of physics_. However, Penrose's
claim that he _has_ mathematical insight, or your similar claim
that wavefunctions collapse only when we consciously take a look,
could be just illusions.

We are obviouslu taking very different viewpoints - I try to ponder
on the problem of consciousness from an evolutionary perspective,
realising that it might not be anything special, but certainly
useful. Thinking back of what I wrote, do you think worms have minds
or not? They are able to experience pain, at least they behave 
just like that. Yet it is conceivable that we might some day
in the future perform a "total synthesis of C. elegans" from
the elements. Would such a worm have a mind?

This is true to some extent. However, I do not think that our brains
work like computers, at all. In fact, there is substantial evidence
(Skarda, 1985; Skarda & Freeman 1987) that brains work more or less
chaotically, generating enough randomness for mental states to evolve.
Our brains work much like genetic algorithm generators, I suppose.

Indeed, this is extremely unlikely, given the vast impact of nurture
on our mind and brain. I suggest, however, that before trying to
understand our consciousness as a collection of algorithms. 

Kevin, take a look at the references I mentioned, and think again.
I still think the best experts on the nature of a conscious mind
are neurologists, neuropsychologists and biologists (but do not 
flame me for my opinions), since they study beings that are
conscious. 

The reason I am repeating my advice is that this discussion cannot
lead to anywhere if our backgrounds are too different.

And please, do not bring QM into this discussion at all - not
all physicists are happy with the claim that our consciousness
plays some special role in physics. I would say it doesn't.

Again, _brains are not computers_. Don't forget this. This does not
mean they need something else to work - they just work differently.
Their primary 'purpose' is perception and guidance of action, 
self-awareness and high intelligence are later appearances.

You are still expecting that we could find the idea of 'green' in
our brains somewhere, perhaps in the form of some chemical. This is
not how I see it. The sensation 'green' is a certain time-dependent
pattern in the area V4 of our visual cortex, and it is distributed
with the help of areas V1 and V2 to the rest of the brain. 

Indeed, a firing pattern. I have sometimes thought of our consciousness
as a global free induction pattern of these local firing patterns,
but this is just idle speculation.

Scientific American's September 1992 issue was a special issue on
mind and brain. Have you already read it from cover to cover? ;-)
There are two articles on visual perception, so you might be 
interested.

But again, please note that subjective experiences cannot be 
observed from a third-person perspective. If we see nothing but 
neuronal activity, we cannot go on to conclude that this is not the
mind.

Kalat (1988) writes about numerous examples where electric stimulation
of different areas of brain have led to various changes in the 
patients' state of mind. For instance, a patient whose septal area
was stimulated (without his knowledge) by remote control during
a psychiatric interview was quickly cured of his depression, and
started discussing a plan to seduce his girlfriend.

Stimulations in the temporal lobe have sometimes led to embarrassing
situations, when the patients have started flirting with the
therapist.

In conclusion, there is evidence that

1) brains are essentially necessary for subjective experiences, 
   brain damage is usually equivalent to some sort of mind damage

2) conscious processes involve substantial brain activity in
   various areas of brain - when we think of colours, our
   visual cortex is activated etc.

3) consciousness is an afterthought - we become conscious of our
   actions with a half a second delay, and our brains are ahead
   of our 'conscious will' by at least 350 ms. 

Thus, I think it is fruitful to turn the question "Why do 'I' see
colours" around and ask "What is this 'I' that seems to be 
observing?", since it seems that our conscious mind is not
the king of our brains.

This depends on what is meant by 'seeing colours'. Does a neural
network that is capable of recognising handwritten numbers from
0 to 9 see the numbers, if it is capable of sorting them?

If you are asking, "why does an animal who is conscious of itself
as an observer have an evolutionary advantage over an animal who
doesn't", I have a good answer - read my previous posting,
where I wrote why a sense of identity helps social animals to swap
roles and act more morally, so that they don't unconsciously
kill each other with newly discovered weapons. (A bit extreme,
but this is the basic idea.)

When early _Homo_ became more and more efficient in using tools, 
a sense of identity and the concept of 'self' had to evolve in
line with this development. Indeed, respect for others and 
conscious altruistic behaviour might be evolutionary advantages
for social animals, such as early humans. 

If minds are required for this, does this mean that until human
minds came to the scene, wavefunctions never collapsed, but remained
in the superpositions for aeons? My, how powerful we are.

This has been discussed before, and I think this topic is irrelevant,
since we do not agree that minds are necessary, and neither do
physicists. 

I agree, but not in the sense you apparently mean above - physics
needs sharp minds to solve many real problems. ;-)

It's OK, if you don't forget to take with you the references I
wrote about in my previous posting, plus the following:

Kalat, James W. (1988): Biological Psychology.
3rd ed., Wadsworth Publishing Company, Belmont, CA 1988.

Skarda, C. (1985): Explaining behavior: Bringing the brain back in.
Inquiry 29:187-202.

Skarda, C. & Freeman, W. (1987): How brains make chaos in order to
make sense of the world. 
Behavioral and Brain Sciences 10:161-173.

Petri

	Personally, I think it was Mrs. O'Leary's cow that knocked over that
lantern...

:*)

It's public because it belongs to everybody.  It's vandalism because many people -- power companies -- do maliciously waste light.  If they can sell you
or your city or your state an unshielded light that wastes 30 to 50 percent
of its light, they make more _money_.  Never mind that your money is wasted.
Never mind that taxpaper's money is wasted.  Never mind that the sky is ruined.

Bob Bunge

This question comes up frequently enough that there should be a faq
about it...

I need a graphics display program that can take as a parameter the name of
the file to be displayed, then just display that image and then quit.

All of the other graphics display programs come up with a menu first or some
other silliness.

This program is going to be run from within another program.  I have lots of
memory and VGA color.  Any graphics format will do.  Has anyone heard of such
a beast?

					Keith

I think you're both right.  Teflon was actually discovered by accident
before WWII.  From what I've heard, they had some chemical (I assume it
was tetrafluoroethylene) in a tank and but the valve got gummed up.
Cutting it open revealed that it had polymerized.

The material was useful for seals, but it had a major problem for, say
the linings of vessels: it wouldn't stick to metal.  What the space
program did was to find a way to get it to stick.  Thus we had no-stick
frypans on the market in the late '60s.

: |> Let me begin by saying I think this is the world's first religion to use
: |> the net as its major recruitment medium.  Therefore, even if this
: |> religion does not take off, its founding members will be very important
: |> historically as this method of soliciting membership will eventually become 
: |> common.
:  
:  So what is Kibology? Chopped liver?

Kibo Himself summed it up by saying "Kibology is not just a religion, it is
also a candy mint ... and a floor wax." I personally think that it is more
like Spam Clear.
:   
:  You really should check out alt.religion.kibology, as Kibo's religion is 
: slightly older than yours, makes more sense and has more slack.

Yes! Why send money to B0B when Kibo will pay you to worship him. (Funny, he
doesn't seem to have paid me...)

: ------------------------------------------------------------------
:      __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
:  ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
: /____ *|   "I understand the causes, and sympathize your motivations,
:      \_| But all the details of this war are just your self-infatuation." 
:       ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 

I downloaded the file xv221exe.zip from the site someone posted here.
It contained the files:
  CJPEG.EXE
  DJPEG.EXE
  XV.EXE

When I tried to run it, it just said 
"Couldn't run go32.exe"
and halts.

What's the matter with this? 
Are there some files missing in the .zip?
What is go32.exe?

any help appreciated.

bye,

Wolfram

--

Actually, I just think he's confused.  *I'm* going to hell because I'm Gay,
not becuase I don't believe in God.

(I wonder if that means I can't come to Tammy & Deans picnic?)

STS 55     
1 22640U 93 27  A 93119.24999999  .00041555  00000-0  12437-3 0    90
2 22640  28.4657 249.3697 0008512 260.9747 152.1416 15.90732913   425

I've been playing with a program called PICLAB to modify some .gif files. The
problem is it keeps displaying only 50% of the image. Starting from the top, it
displays20%, leaves 20% blank, then down another 20% etc. ANyone know what I'm
doing wrong, or is there another piece of software I should use instead?

I'd be interested in a copy of this code if you run across it.
(Mail to the author bounced)
 > / hpldsla:comp.graphics / ricky@vnet.ibm.com (Rick Turner) / 12:53 am  May 13,
 1993 /
 > I fooled around with this problem a few years ago, and implemented a
 > simple method that ran on a PC.
 > was very simple - about 40 or 50 lines of code.
 . . .
 > Somewhere I still have it
 > and could dig it out if there was interest.
 >
 > Rick

   Surely you are not equating David Koresh with Christianity? The two are
   not comparable.

I've done a bit of looking, and havn't been able to 
come up with a mailing list or newsgroup for users
of Adobe Photoshop.  Assuming I've just not missed
it, I'll go ahead and see if there is enough interest
to start a mailing list (and/or alt. newsgroup).

Drop me a note if  you might be interested in subscribing.

THANKS!

--Bob Wier (NOT of the Grateful Dead :-)

You don't need any counterfeit athiest's myth to make religion
appear absurd.  You need only read any of friendly Christian
Bill Conner's posts.

Does antone know the ftp address for the Smithsonian Institution
where one can get digitized photographs, etc ?
Please reply by email to 
pbenson@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu

Thanks

If available please send to
Glen Moore
Director
Science Centre
Wollongong, Australia
fax: 61 42 213151   email: gkm@cc.uow.edu.au

A map of Italy showing the states/provinces(?) is in the FreeHand
3.1 for Windows clip art collection. Corel Draw 3.0 clip art has
an outline map of Italy.

Very good point.  Is there someone out there that is working on this?
I'd offer my time to help manage/do it all myself but yaw'll are not
going to hear from me over the summer.  I'm not trying to be pushy,
and there is being progress made (re: pov mailing list).

-hed

I have often thought about, if its possible to have a powerfull laser
on earth, to light at the Moon, and show lasergraphics at the surface
so clearly that you can see it with your eyes when there is a new
moon.

How about a Coca Cola logo at the moon, easy way to target billions of
people.

Do you know if its possible?

But I believe that there is a fundamental difference here.  The other x
three instruments are focusing instruments, that, more or less, form
an image, so positional errors are limited by craft attitude and the 
resolving power of the optics.  BATSE is an altogether different
beast, effectively just 8 coincidence counters, one on each corner of 
the craft.  Positional information is triangulated from the 
differential signal arrival times at each of the detectors.
Positional error would be predominantly determined by timing errors
and errors in craft attitude. Since none of the 8 BASTE detectors have
any independant angular resolution whatsoever, they can not be used to
determine parallax.  Indeed, parallax would just add a very small 
component to the positional error.  

Demonstrating that these puppies are beyond the oort cloud would 
require resolution on the order of arcseconds, since the oort 
cloud is postulated to extend to about 0.5 parsec (all together 
now: "Parallax ARc SECond", a parsec is the distance of an object 
that demonstrates one arc second of parallax with a 2 AU base line).
If the 3 degree accuracy reported above is true, we're going to 
have to add a BASTE to the pluto fast flyby to get enough baseline.

The beauty of BASTE is that it both gives positional information and
watches the entire sky simultaneously, a realy handy combination
when you have no idea where the next burst is coming from.

How hard or easy would it be to have a combo mission such as a solar sail on
the way out to the outer planets, but once in near to orbit to use more normal
means..
Seems that everyone talks about using one system and one system only per
mission, why not have more than one propulsion system? Or did I miss
something.. ?? or did it die in committee?
==

        I had to turn to one of my problem sets that I did in class for this
little problem.  I don't have a calculator, but I DO have the problem set that
we did not too long ago, so I'll use that, and hope it's what you wanted.  
This is a highly simplified problem, with a very simple burst.  Bursts are
usually more complex than this example I will use here.
        Our burst has a peak flux of 5.43E-6 ergs cm^-2 sec^-1 and a duration
of 8.95 seconds.  During the frst second of the burst, and the last 4 seconds,
its flux is half of the peak flux.  It's flux is the peak flux the rest of the
time.  Assume that the background flux is 10E-7 erg cm^-2 sec^-1.
        Then we had to find the integrated luminosity of the burst, for several
different spheres: R=.25pc(Oort Cloud Radius), R=22.5pc(at the edge of the
galaxy), R=183.5pc or the edge of the galactic corona, and lastly at a
R=8800Mpc.  
        We integrated the flux over all time to find the fluence, then used the
old standby formula:
                        Luminosity=4(pi)(r^2)Fpeak
        For a radius of .25 pc, we found an L around 10^32 erg/sec.  Pretty
energetic for close by.  for the coronal model, we found around 10^43 erg/sec.
And lastly, for the cosmological model an L=10^53. That's what you'd call
moderately energetic, I'd say.  Any suggestions about what could put out that
much energy in one second? 
                                                -jeremy

#In article <1r3tqo$ook@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>
# 
#>#>|>#>#Theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes. Irrational
#>#>|>#>#belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism.
#>#
#>#(deletion)
#>#
#>#>|Theism is correlated with fanaticism. I have neither said that all fanatism
#>#>|is caused by theism nor that all theism leads to fanatism. The point is,
#>#>|theism increases the chance of becoming a fanatic. One could of course
#>#>|argue that would be fanatics tend towards theism (for example), but I just
#>#>|have to loook at the times in history when theism was the dominant ideology
#>#>|to invalidate that conclusion that that is the basic mechanism behind it.
#>#>
#>#>IMO, the influence of Stalin, or for that matter, Ayn Rand, invalidates your
#>#>assumption that theism is the factor to be considered.
#>#
#>#Bogus. I just said that theism is not the only factor for fanatism.
#>#The point is that theism is *a* factor.
#>
#>That's your claim; now back it up.  I consider your argument as useful
#>as the following:  Belief is strongly correlated with fanaticism.  Therefore
#>belief is *a* factor in fanaticism.  True, and utterly useless.  (Note, this
#>is *any* belief, not belief in Gods)
#>
# 
#Tiring to say the least. I have backed it up, read the first statement.

I have read it.  Conspicuous by its absence is any evidence or point.

# 
#The latter is the fallacy of the wrong analogy. Saying someone believes
#something is hardly an information about the person at all. Saying someone
#is a theist holds much more information. Further, the correlation between
#theists and fanatism is higher than that between belief at all and fanatism
#because of the special features of theistic belief.

Truth by blatant assertion.  Evidence?
# 
# 
#>#>Gullibility,
#>#>blind obedience to authority, lack of scepticism, and so on, are all more
#>#>reliable indicators.  And the really dangerous people - the sources of
#>#>fanaticism - are often none of these things.  They are cynical manipulators
#>#>of the gullible, who know precisely what they are doing.
#>#
#>#That's a claim you have to support. Please note that especially in the
#>#field of theism, the leaders believe what they say.
#>
#>If you believe that, you're incredibly naive.
#>
# 
#You, Frank O'Dwyer, are living in a dream world. I wonder if there is any
#base of discussion left after such a statement. As a matter of fact, I think
#you are ignorant of human nature. Even when one starts with something one does
#not believe, one gets easily fooled into actually believing what one says.
# 
#To give you the benefit of the doubt, prove your statement.

The onus of proof is on you, sunshine.  What makes you think that
theist leaders believe what they say?  Especially when they say
one thing and do another, or say one thing closely followed by its
opposite?  The practice is not restricted to theism, but it's there
for anyone to see.  It's almost an epidemic in this country.

Just for instance, if it is harder for a camel to pass thru' the eye
of a needle, why is the Catholic church such a wealthy land-owner?  Why
are there churches to the square inch in my country?
# 
#>#>Now, *some*
#>#>brands of theism, and more precisely *some* theists, do tend to fanaticism,
#>#>I grant you.  To tar all theists with this brush is bigotry, not a reasoned
#>#>argument - and it reads to me like a warm-up for censorship and restriction
#>#>of religious freedom.  Ever read Animal Farm?
#>#>
#>#That's a straw man. And as usually in discussions with you one has to
#>#repeat it: Read what I have written above: not every theism leads to
#>#fanatism, and not all fanatism is caused by theism. The point is,
#>#there is a correlation, and it comes from innate features of theism.
#>
#>No, some of it comes from features which *some* theism has in common
#>with *some* fanaticism.    Your last statement simply isn't implied by
#>what you say before, because you're trying to sneak in "innate features
#>of [all] theism".  The word you're groping for is "some".
#>
# 
#Bogus again. Not all theism as is is fanatic. However, the rest already
#gives backup for the statement about the correlation about fanatism and
#theism. And further, the specialty of other theistic beliefs allows them
#to switch to fanatism easily. It takes just a nifty improvement in the
#theology.

Truth by blatant assertion.  
# 
# 
#>#Gullibility, by the way, is one of them.
#>
#>No shit, Sherlock.  So why not talk about gullibility instead of theism,
#>since it seems a whole lot more relevant to the case you have, as opposed
#>to the case you are trying to make?
#>
# 
#Because there is more about theism that the attraction to gullible people
#causing the correlation. And the whole discussion started that way by the
#statement that theism is meaningfully correlated to fanatism, which you
#challenged.

Indeed I did.  As I recall, I asked for evidence.  What is the correlation
of which you speak?  
# 
# 
#>#And to say that I am going to forbid religion is another of your straw
#>#men. Interesting that you have nothing better to offer.
#>
#>I said it reads like a warm up to that.  That's because it's an irrational
#>and bogus tirade, and has no other use than creating a nice Them/Us
#>split in the minds of excitable people such as are to be found on either
#>side of church walls.
#>
# 
#Blah blah blah. I am quite well aware that giving everyone their rights
#protects me better from fanatics than the other way round.

Of course, other people are always fanatics, never oneself.  Your
wish to slur all theists seems pretty fanatical to me.
# 
#It is quite nice to see that you are actually implying a connection between
#that argument and the rise of fanatism. So far, it is just another of your
#assertions.

So?  You can do it.
# 
# 
#>#>|>(2)  Define "irrational belief".  e.g., is it rational to believe that
#>#>|>     reason is always useful?
#>#>|>
#>#>|
#>#>|Irrational belief is belief that is not based upon reason. The latter has
#>#>|been discussed for a long time with Charley Wingate. One point is that
#>#>|the beliefs violate reason often, and another that a process that does
#>#>|not lend itself to rational analysis does not contain reliable information.
#>#>
#>#>Well, there is a glaring paradox here:  an argument that reason is useful
#>#>based on reason would be circular, and argument not based on reason would
#>#>be irrational.  Which is it?
#>#>
#>#That's bogus. Self reference is not circular. And since the evaluation of
#>#usefulness is possible within rational systems, it is allowed.
#>
#>O.K., it's oval.  It's still begging the question, however.  And though
#>that certainly is allowed, it's not rational.  And you claiming to be
#>rational and all.
#>
# 
#Another of your assertions. No proof, no evidence, just claims.

Hey - I learned it from you. Did I do good?
# 
# 
#>At the risk of repeating myself, and hearing "we had that before" [we
#>didn't hear a _refutation_ before, so we're back.   Deal with it] :
#>you can't use reason to demonstrate that reason is useful.  Someone
#>who thinks reason is crap won't buy it, you see.
#>
# 
#That is unusually weak even for you. The latter implies that my proof
#depends on their opinion. Somehow who does not accept that there are
#triangles won't accept Pythagoras. Wow, that's an incredible insight.
#I don't have to prove them wrong in their opinion. It is possible to
#show that their systems leave out useful information respectively claims
#unreliable or even absurd statements to be information.

Totally circular, and totally useless.
# 
#Their wish to believe makes them believe. Things are judges by their appeal,
#and not by their information. It makes you feel good when you believe that
#may be good for them, but it contains zillions of possible pitfalls. From
#belief despite contrary evidence to the bogus proofs they attempt.

Truth by blatant assertion.  I've seen as many bogus proofs of the 
non-existence of gods as I have of their existence.

# 
#Rational systems, by the way, does not mean that every data has to come from
#logical analysis, the point is that the evaluation of the data does not
#contradict logic. It easily follows that such a system does not allows to
#evaluate if its rational in itself. Yes, it is possible to evaluate that
#it is rational in a system that is not rational by the fallacies of that
#system, but since the validity of the axioms is agreed upon, that has as
#little impact as the possibility of a demon ala Descartes.

This just doesn't parse, sorry.
# 
#So far it just a matter of consistency. I use ratiional arguments to show
#that my system is consistent or that theirs isn't. The evaluation of the

Nor this.
#predictions does not need rationality. It does not contradict, however.
# 
# 
#>#Your argument is as silly as proving mathematical statements needs mathematics
#>#and mathematics are therfore circular.
#>
#>Anybody else think Godel was silly?
#>
# 
#Stream of consciousness typing? What is that supposed to mean?
# 
# 
#>#>The first part of the second statement contains no information, because
#>#>you don't say what "the beliefs" are.  If "the beliefs" are strong theism
#>#>and/or strong atheism, then your statement is not in general true.  The
#>#>second part of your sentence is patently false - counterexample: an
#>#>axiomatic datum does not lend itself to rational analysis, but is
#>#>assumed to contain reliable information regardless of what process is
#>#>used to obtain it.
#>#>
#>#
#>#I've been speaking of religious systems with contradictory definitions
#>#of god here.
#>#
#>#An axiomatic datum lends itself to rational analysis, what you say here
#>#is a an often refuted fallacy. Have a look at the discussion of the
#>#axiom of choice. And further, one can evaluate axioms in larger systems
#>#out of which they are usually derived. "I exist" is derived, if you want
#>#it that way.
#>#
#>#Further, one can test the consistency and so on of a set of axioms.
#>#
#>#what is it you are trying to say?
#>
#>That at some point, people always wind up saying "this datum is reliable"
#>for no particular reason at all.  Example: "I am not dreaming".
#>
# 
#Nope. There is evidence for it. The trick is that the choice of an axiomatic
#basis of a system is difficult, because the possibilities are interwoven.
#One therefore chooses that with the least assumptions or with assumptions
#that are necessary to get information out of the system anyway.

I'd like to see this alleged evidence.
# 
#One does not need to define axioms in order to define an evaluation method
#for usefulness, the foundation is laid by how one feels at all (that's not
#how one feels about it).

I see.  You have no irrational beliefs.  But then, fanatics never do, do
they?

# 
#>#>|Compared the evidence theists have for their claims to the strength of
#>#>|their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational.
#>#>
#>#>I can't agree with this until you are specific - *which* theism?  To
#>#>say that all theism is necessarily antirational requires a proof which
#>#>I suspect you do not have.
#>#>
#>#
#>#Using the traditonal definition of gods. Personal, supernatural entities
#>#with objective effects on this world. Usually connected to morals and/or
#>#the way the world works.
#>
#>IMO, any belief about such gods is necessarily irrational.  That does
#>not mean that people who hold them are in principle opposed to the exercise of
#>intelligence.  Some atheists are also scientists, for example.
#>
# 
#They don't use theism when doing science. Or it wouldn't be science. Please
#note that subjective data lend themselves to a scientific treatment as well.
#They just prohibit formulating them as objective statements.

Ergo, nothing is objective.  Fair enough.
# 
# 
#>#>|The affinity to fanatism is easily seen. It has to be true because I believe
#>#>|it is nothing more than a work hypothesis. However, the beliefs say they are
#>#>|more than a work hypothesis.
#>#>
#>#>I don't understand this.  Can you formalise your argument?
#>#
#>#Person A believes system B becuase it sounds so nice. That does not make
#>#B true, it is at best a work hypothesis. However, the content of B is that
#>#it is true AND that it is more than a work hypothesis. Testing or evaluating
#>#evidence for or against it  therefore dismissed because B (already believed)
#>#says it is wronG/ a waste  of time/ not possible. Depending on the further
#>#contents of B Amalekites/Idolaters/Protestants are to be killed, this can
#>#have interesting effects.
#>
#>Peculiar definition of interesting, but sure.  Now show that a belief
#>in gods entails the further contents of which you speak.   Why aren't my
#>catholic neighbours out killing the protestants, for example?   Maybe they
#>don't believe in it.  Maybe it's the conjunction of "B asserts B" and
#>"jail/kill dissenters" that is important, and the belief in gods is
#>entirely irrelevant.  It certainly seems so to me, but then I have no
#>axe to grind here.
#>
# 
#The example with your neighbours is a fallacy. That *your* neighbours don't
#says little about others. And there were times when exactly that happened.

Nope, it's not a fallacy.   It just doesn't go to the correlation you
wish to see.
# 
#And tell me, when it is not irrelevant, why are such statements about
#Amalekites and Idolaters in the Holy Books? Please note that one could
#edit them out when they are not relevant anymore. Because gods don't err?
#What does that say about that message?

Excuse me - THE Holy Books?
# 
#And how come we had theists saying genocides ordered by god are ok. A god
#is the easiest way to excuse anything, and therefore highly attracting to
#fanatics. Not to mention the effect interpretation by these fanatics can
#have on the rest of the believers. Happens again and again and again.

A god is neither the easiest way to excuse anything, nor the only way.

Bill, ever heard of secular humanism? Please check out what
this stands for, and then revise your statements above.

Cheers,
Kent

From article <1993May14.023220.1@vax1.tcd.ie>, by apryan@vax1.tcd.ie:

Hmmm... Atlantis left Eureca in a 28 degree orbit. Retrieving it is
going to be *REALLY* fun if they fly to 57 degrees. Torque that 
Canadarm! :-)

I cant get through to the author of rtrace. His site is inaccessible
can he upload the new version somewhere else please?

  Sorry, you have a _wish_ for an uncluttered night sky, but it
isn't a right. When you get down to it, you actually have no rights
that the majority haven't agreed to give you (and them in the process).
It's a common misconception that being born somehow endows you with
rights to this that and the other. Sadly this is not true.
  Now if you want to talk about the responsibility that _should_ go with
the power to clutter the night sky, then that's a different matter.

BR> From: wpr@atlanta.dg.com (Bill Rawlins)
BR> Newsgroups: alt.atheism
BR> Organization: DGSID, Atlanta, GA

BR>         The problem is that most scientists exclude the
BR> possibility of the         supernatural in the question of
BR> origins.  Is this is a fair premise?         I utterly
BR> reject the hypothesis that science is the highest form of   
BR>      truth.

It is better than the crap that the creationists put out.  So far all they
have been able to manage is distortions and half-truths. (When they are not
taking quotes out of context...)

BR>         Some of these so-called human-like creatures were
BR> apes.  Some were         humans.  Some were fancifully
BR> reconstructed from fragments. 

The genetic code has shown more about how man is realted to primates that the
fossil record.  (A little detail the creationists try and ignore.)

BR>            Good deeds do not justify a person in God's
BR> sight.            An atonement (Jesus) is needed to atone
BR> for sin.

Who says?  Your Bible(tm)?	I would be surprised if *ANY* Christian followed
all of the rules in the Bible.  (Most of them just pick and choose, according
to the local biases.)

BR>      My point: God is the creator.  Look's like we agree.

Where is your proof?  How do you know it was *YOUR* God?

BR>      I'll send you some info via e-mail.
BR>      Regards, Bill.

Why not post them?	I would be interested in seeing them myself.

I am not exactly known as a Flower Child Pacifist, but lets call
cowpoop cowpoop.

"The peaceful attempt to serve the warrant" consisted of the following
actions, in order:

1) BATF agents forcing their entry of the "compound" through second
story windows.

2) BATF agents loosing some grenades (allegedly "stun" or "flash"
grenades) which promptly detonated.

*After* which, according to the tapes I have seen, the B-D
started shooting back.

Now exactly how is it that someone breaking into private property
and tossing grenades around is considered "peaceful" by
*anyone*? You *think* on that.

(Which is not to say I do not still hold my previous and
entirely correct notions about what should be worn and
what arms should be used in assaulting a building.)

How can you tell for sure? Three days haven't passed yet. 

--
Steve Bittrolff

Hello,
   Subject says it all. I need a GIF to Targa converter, so that my
dta15 could make a .FLI of them.
      Krzysztof

OK, never heard of Cross filters, but Roberts, Prewitt and Sobel filters
are standard spatial masks for edge detection.  Highpass filtering does a
good job of detecting edges, too.  A good reference for all sorts of general
digital image processing is the book _Digital Image Processing_ by
Rafael C. Gonzalez and Richard E. Woods.  Addison-Wesley Publishing Co. 1992.
ISBN 0-201-50803-6

I've used this source to do the above filters and many other things as a
grad project.  Not too dificult to do.  The worst part is loading in the
images from TIFF/GIF/IFF-ILBM/whatever!  :)

It's not quite what you were asking, but a few years ago I helped some EE
remote sensing people run some experiments on the microwave emmissivity of
ice; they used the sky for a background calibration source.  They said that
from Earth's surface the sky looks like a 60K blackbody.

Of course,

	How many government projects after Using PERT, GANT, C.P.M.s
Process flow diagrams,  Level 5 software projects....  actually
come in on schedule and under Cost.  I know the GAO determined
that 80% of all NASA projects  miss their budgets due to failing
to adequately measure  engineering developement costs.   

Me, I am allin favor of Government R&D.  I thought Bell Labs was one of the best 
to do research.   I don't think the government should pour money
into any one sector,  but should engage in projects which naturally
push the state of the art.  

THings like  High tech  construction projects,  apollo  was worth it for the doing.  Running hte national labs.  The SSC is grossly overweight,  but
is a reasonable project at a lower cost.  

Unfortunately support for solo investigators is direly neglected.

Maybe what they should do, is throw out much of the process and just tell
new PH'ds,  you get a 1 time grant of $50,000.00   If you produce, you
can  qualify for other grants.  If you don't  you never get in again.

THis way  young people get a shot at  reserach,  and older  stale 
scientists don't dominate the process.

I give up.  What's new about yet another interpretation of the
odl Adam and Eve story?
      -- Michael

Certainly. Reference follows. 

Bear in mind that there are at least two conditions which may be called
red/green colour blind. One, protanopia, is caused by a lack or major
dysfunction of the L cones, those that respond best to long
wavelengths. This gives much reduced red/green and red/violet discrimination and
also means that reds look dimmer than than they do to people with normal vision.

The other, deuteranopia, is due to missing or dysfunctional M cones although it
can also be caused by a lack of the L-M cone difference signals in the retina.
It also gives reduced red/green discrimination but red/violet is unaffected. 
Unlike protanopia, reds are not dimmer than  normal.

On a uniform chromaticity diagram - the horseshoe shaped one you see in computer
graphics books - there is a single confusion point for each type of colour
deficiency. Colours which are confused lie on straight lines radiating from this
point. For protanopia the point is at u'=0.61,v'=0.51, very close to the far red
corner. For deuteranopia, the point is at u'=-4.75, v'=1.31

Note that different experimental investigations in the literature give slightly
different values for these depending on the precise details of the experimental
setup, random errors, and so on. The values quoted are typical.

So if all colours on a line are seen as the same, which colour is actually seen?

This problem has now been solved. Tests on people with one normal eye and one
affected eye have shown that there is an axis for each type of disorder onto
which all the colours collapse. For protanopes this joins up 473nm and 574nm on
the spectral locus (the edge of the horseshoe); for deuteranopes the line is
very similar,  joining 477nm and 579nm.

*So* to convert colours from normal vision to a simulated protanopia or
duuteranopia:

1) Plot the colour on a uniform chromaticity diagram
2) Construct a line from this point to the appropriate confusion point
3) Find the intersection of this line with the appropriate axis line
4) This is the new chromaticity. 

The best reference for this is Meyer, G.W. & Greenberg, D.P. (1988) 'Colour
defective vision and computer graphics displays', IEEE Computer Graphics and
Applications 8(5) 28-40.

You will also need a decent reference on basic colour science if you are not
familiar with the CIE XYZ colour model and the uniform chromaticity scale diagram.

Yes this is certainly possible. You will need the chromaticities of the red
green and blue phosphors of the monitor you intend to display the images on, and
the chromaticity of the white point. This information can be measured, or
obtained from the manufacturer. I posted a list of some monitor chromaticities a
couple of weeks ago.

The procedure, for each pixel (!) is as follows. (Some lookup tables might be a
help here.)

A) convert RGB to CIE XYZ. This is a simple 3*3 matrix multiplication once you
have the monitor data.
B) retaining the Y component for later, convert XYZ to chromaticity coordinates u'v'
using u' = 4X/(X+15Y+3Z), v' = 9Y/(X+15Y+3Z)
C) find the equation of the line as in step 2 above
D) find the intersection as in step 3
E) convert back from u'v' to XYZ, using the Y value from step A
F) Ensure that this new colour can be displayed on your monitor; if not, move it
along a line in XYZ space towards neutral grey (ie half way between black and
white) until it is displayable.

Done; also posted for the rest of us.

--

This presupposes that no supersonic ramjet aircraft/spacecraft can be reliable
or low-cost.  This is unproven.

Recently, I've asked myself a rather interesting question: What RIGHT does
god have on our lives (always assuming there is a god, of course...!) ??

In his infinite wisdom, he made it perfectly clear that if we don't live
according to his rules, we will burn in hell. Well, with what RIGHT can god
make that desicion? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that god creates every
one of us (directly or indirectly, it doesn't matter.). What then happens, is
that he first creates us, and then turns us lose. Well, I didn't ask to be
created. 

Let's make an analogue. If a scientist creates a unique living creature (which
has happened, it was even patented...!!!), does he then have the right to
expect it to behave in a certain matter, or die...?

Who is god to impose its rules on us ? Who can tell if god is REALLY so
righteous as god likes us to believe? Are all christians a flock of sheep,
unable to do otherwise that follow the rest? 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I just want to point out that this is not sarcasm, I mean it.

I have not seen articles in comp.graphics.research for a long time.
Does it/he work anymore?

I have seen many conference related postings in comp.graphics,
and it is hard to believe that people have not tried to post them to
c.g.research.

If somebody has not got his article to comp.graphics.research, then
write to me or post here.

Has someone actually verified that mass is the predominant constraint on this
mission?  You seem to be assuming it without giving supporting evidence.  

Pat, this would be slower, more expensive and worse.  

Slower:  The shuttle mission is scheduled to go up in December.  That's less
than eight months away.  There is no way you could build new hardware, retrain
and reschedule the EVA's in that time.

More Expensive:  Your proposal still requires the shuttle to do everything it
was going to do execpt fire the OMS.  In addition, you've added significant
extra cost for a new piece of complex hardware.

According to a GAO report on the OMV I have before me, there are
only two currently planned missions that could use such a vehicle -- HST and
AXAF.  Since AXAF has since been scaled back and HST can rely on the shuttle,
there doesn't seem to be any need for your vehicle.

Could anyone please explain what Bit Planes are?  We have an SGI here at work 
that says it has 64 Bit Planes - what does this mean?  How does this relate to 
PC graphics?  What do they usually have?  Please reply via Email as most of 
this group is over my head.  

Thanks in advance!!! 

Bob Gruen 

Since this is alt.atheism, I hope you don't mind if we strongly disagree...

: The fact is God could cause you to believe anything He wants you to. 
: But think about it for a minute.  Would you rather have someone love
: you because you made them love you, or because they wanted to
: love you.     The responsibility is on you to love God and take a step toward
: Him.  He promises to be there for you, but you have to look for yourself.

Indeed, "knock and it shall be opened to you". Dan, why didn't this work?
I firmly believed in god for 15 years, but I eventually realised I was
only deluding myself, fearful to face the truth. Ultimately, the only reason
what kept me believing was the fear of hell. The mental states I 
had sillily attributed to divine forces or devil's attempts to 
destroy my faith were nothing more than my imagination, and it is easy
to achieve the same mental states at will. 

My faith was just learned fear in a disguise.

: Those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort.

God is demanding too much. Dan, what was it I believed in for 15 years?
If sincere effort is equivalent to active suspension of disbelief -
what it was in my case - I'd rather quit. If god does not help me to
keep the faith, I can't go on. 

Besides, I am concerned with god's morality and mental health. Does
she really want us to _believe_ in herself without any help (revelations,
guidance, or anything I can feel)? If she has created us, why didn't
she make the task any easier? Why are we supposed to love someone who
refuses to communicate with us? What is the point of eternal torture
for those who can't believe?

I love god just as much as she loves me. If she wants to seduce me,
she'll know what to do. 

: Simple logic arguments are folly.  If you read the Bible you will see
: that Jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with "logic".
: Our ability to reason is just a spec of creation.  Yet some think it is
: the ultimate.  If you rely simply on your reason then you will never
: know more than you do now. 

Your argument is of the type "you'll know once you try".
Yet there are many atheists who have sincerely tried, and believed
for many years, but were eventually honest enough to admit that 
they had lived in a virtual reality.

What else but reason I can use? I don't have the spiritual means 
Christians often refer to. My conscience disagrees with the Bible.
I don't even believe I have a soul. I am fully dependent on my
body - indeed, I _am_ this body. When it goes up with flames, so
does my identity. God can entertain herself with copies of me
if she wants.

: To learn you must accept that which you don't know.

What does this mean? To learn you must accept that you don't know 
something, right-o. But to learn you must _accept_ something I don't
know, why? This is not the way I prefer to learn. It is unwise to
merely swallow everything you read. Suppose I write a book telling
how the Great Invisible Pink Unicorn (tm) has helped me in my
daily problems, would you accept this, since you can't know whether
it is true or not?

Note that the GIPU is also omnipotent, omnipresent, and loves just
about everyone. Besides, He (and She) is guiding every writer on this planet,
you and me, and not just some people who write legendary stories
2000 years ago.

Your god is just one aspect of His and Her Presence.

Petri

I'm worried by the concern about it though, for a number of reasons
that have nothing to do with Space Advertising (which for a number of
reasons is probably doomed to fail on financial grounds).

(And I've been reading and (and writing) this thread since way
back when it was only on sci.space).

For starters, I don't think the piece of light-pollution apparatus
would be as bright as the full moon. _That_ seems to me to be a bit
of propaganda on the part of opponents, or wishful thinking on the
part of proponents.

Second, this charge of ruining the night sky permanently has been
levelled against other projects, that either 1) don't increace light
pollution significantly, or 2) increace light pollution only over the
target area.

You may or may not recognize #1 as being Solar Power Sattelites.
I think it was Josh Hopkins who actually did the math, showing that
SPS's weren't that bright after all, ending some two months of frenzied
opposition on the part of dark-sky activists and various other types.

#2 is mainly projects like the orbiting mirror the CIS tested
recently.  While slightly more worrisome, I'd like to point out that
any significant scattering of light outside the target area for one of
these mirrors would be wasted as far as the project would be
concerned, and something any project like that would work against
anyway. And given some of the likely targets, I don't think there's
going to be much of an outcry from the inhabitants. There is too much
dark sky in the northern CIS during the winter, and I doubt you'll find
many activists in Murmansk demanding the "natural" sky back. If anything,
he'll probably be inside, stripped buck naked in front of the UV lamp,
making sure he'll get enough vitamin D for the "day."

The mirror experiments aren't something they're doing for crass
advertising. They think that if they can build one, it'll be one of
those things people in the affected areas will think they couldn't
have lived without before. And I doubt anyone's going to really be
able to convince them to stop.

Does anyone have any information on the Polaroid Palette system. It appears to
be a gadget for transfering graphics images to film. Does anyone have any detail
about it like the maximum supported resolution or types of video input????

What did Polaroid market them as?????

Fletch

HST is about 25,500 lbs (11,600 kg).  That doesn't include the cradle that
would have been in the cargo bay when it was deployed.  Spacelab-J on STS-47
was 21,861 lbs (according to the press-kit). 

As someone else pointed out if they had been unable to deploy it for some
reason that would have had to land with it still in the cargo bay and this
was a planned for contingency.  This is not a problem for the shuttle,
though it would eliminate KSC as a landing site, they still have to go to
Edwards when landing with something like Spacelab in the cargo bay. 

--GaryM

You have clearly demonstrated that you do not even know
what my religion is in order to make that assumption.

How I can present any argument when you put your hands over your
eyes and devise new irrevelant excuses each time?  The fact remains,
you want to argue about something that you do not know anything about.
Do you not have to learn a topic first before you can reasonably debate
the topic?  

Which brings us about to the start of this thread.  You began
perverting Bible verses, interpreting them without investigation.
For if you desired to investigate, you would have changed your
tune immediately.   Thus it is clear to me.  You do not believe
what I am saying because "you don't want to" check it out.

Then you must have also ignored every other post I have written
to you.  This would seem to go along with your character.

Hi!

We have an old Montage FR-1 35mm film recorder. When connected to a PC with
its processor card it can directly take HPGL, Targa and Lasergraphics Language
files. 24 bit Targa is quite OK for raster images, but conversion from 
whatever one happens to have can be quite slow. This Lasergraphics Language
seems to be (got the source file for one test image) a vector-based language
that can handle one million colors. It does some polygons too, and perhaps
something else ?

The question is, where can I find some information about this language ?
A FTP site, a book, a company address,.... ?

(OK, it would be nice to have a Windows driver for it, but I'm not THAT
optimistic...)

Thanks in advance for any help!

	jussi

:  
: well, i have lots of experience with scanning in images and altering
: them.  as for changing them back into negatives, is that really possible?

: (stuff deleted)

: jennifer urso:  the oh-so bitter woman of utter blahness(but cheerful
: undertones)

I use Aldus Photostyler on the PC and I can turn a colour or black and white
image into a negative or turn a negative into a colour or black and white
image.  I don't know how it does it but it works well.  To test it I scanned
a negative and used Aldus to create a positive.  It looked better than the
print that the film developers gave me.

-- 

I hope someone can help me with the following problem - I'm sure there
must be a known solution.

Given a rectangle defined by

-X <= x <= X  and -Y <= y <= Y  where X and Y are constant

and a parallelogram defined by

-C1 <= a*x + b*y <= C1  and -C2 <= c*x + d*y <= C2

where C1, C2, a, b, c, d are constants and b/a != d/c (i.e. not
parallel lines)                                ^^
                                          not equal to

what is the area of their intersection?

   What I'm after is some general algorithm suitable for ALL rectangles
and parallelograms that can be described by the above equations.  At the 
moment it looks like I'm going to have to look at all possible cases 
and examine each seperately e.g.

1) rectangle encloses parallelogram. 

2) parallelogram encloses rectangle.

3) two corners of parallelogram inside rectangle

                          ^
                         / \
                        /   \
                       /     \
           Y -------------------------------  Y
             |       /         \           |
             |       \          \          |
             |        \     .    \         |       . origin
             |         \          \        |
             |          \         /        |
          -Y ------------------------------- -Y
            -X            \     /           X
                           \   /
                            \ /
                             "

4) two corners of parallelogram outside rectangle

   I hope someone can help.

Many thanks in advance,

Dave Nettleton.

e-mail:  D.J.Nettleton@durham.ac.uk

lioness@maple.circa.ufl.edu:

pmartz@dsd.es.com (Paul Martz):

    For both these questions, it's an inclusive or.  Alpha plus stencil is
supported (they're separate), as is double-buffered stereo.

The compressed image format used for the Voyager disks is not (yet)
supported by any Macintosh display software that I know of. However,
there does exist a program that can convert the images to a format that
is recognized by recent versions of both Pixel Pusher and NIH/Image. It
is called "PDS Decompress" and is available via anonymous ftp from the
"pub" directory on "delcano.mit.edu" [18.75.0.80]. This is a Binhex/
Stuffit archive and contains the application itself, Think-C source,
and a very brief description.

The most recent version of NIH/Image (1.48) may be down-loaded from
"starhawk.jpl.nasa.gov", where it is located in "image148.hqx" in the
"pub" directory. This archive also contains source code, but not the
documentation, which is located in the "image1455.hqx" archive in the
same directory.

Sorry, Fred, but for the purposes under discussion here, I must
disagree.  Your point is true only in the sense that one cannot argue
against communism by reference to the Chinese or Soviet empires, since
those did not represent *true* communism.  In judging the practical
consequences of Islam as a force to contend with in the world today,
it is precisely the Khomeini's of the world, the Rushdie-fatwa
supporters, and perhaps more importantly, the reaction of the world
Muslim community to those extremists, that we must look to.  Perhaps
unfortunately from your perspective, most people are not concerned
with whether Islam is the right religion for them, or whether the
Qur'an could be used as a guidebook for a hypothetical utopia, but how
Islam affects the world around them, or what their lives might be like
if Islam gains in influence.  When I consider such possibilities, it
is with not inconsiderable fear.

Brian Kendig also declares:

"Christ" is Greek for "Messiah".  "Messiah" means "Annointed One".
"Annoint" means "to rub with oil, i.e. to anoint; by impl. to
consecrate"     The major prophet Daniel uses the word "Messiah"
in Daniel chapter 9.

I once heard an arguement from a xtian friend similar to this.
"Christianity is a Higher Logic.  Athiest like u will not be able
to understand it.  Your atheist logic is very low.  Only thru faith can 
we understand the Higher Logic in God".

So I asked him, "So what is this Higher Logic?"

His answer, "I don't know."

This, & the posting above highlights one of the worst things about
xtainity.  It is abundantly clear to both atheists & xtains that
their believe is both illogical & irrational.  Their tactics, therefore:
to disregard logic & rationality altogether.  Silly excuses such as
the ones above and those such as, "How can u trust science, science
was invented by man!", only goes to further show the weakness of
their religion.

In my country where xtainity was and still is rapidly growing, xtains
never try to convert people by appealing to their brains or senses.
They know it would be a fruitless act, given the irrational nature
of their faith.
They would wait until a person is in distress, then they would comfort
him/her and addict them to their emotional opium.

Never in my life had I met a person who converted to xtainity coz it's
"reasonable".  Rationality has no place in xtainity (see xtian arguement
against "reason" above).

--

The UnEnlightened One
------------------+--------------------------------------------------------
                  | 
Tan Chade Meng    | The wise man tells his wife that he understands her.
Singapore         | 
cmtan@iss.nus.sg  | The fool tries to prove it. 
                  | 

--

	[...details of US built chemical plant at Al Alteer near Baghdad...]
: However, the plant's intended use was to aid the Iraqi infrastructure.
: It is not an example of selling a weapon.  May sound nitpicking,
: but are we going to refuse to sell valuable parts that build the
: infrastructure because of dual use technology? 

	I am contending that in this case (and in the case of the sale
of pesticides by UK companies) that they knew full well that it was to 
be used for the production of chemical weapons even if that was not its
officially stated purpose.

: I personally don't think that letting Iran conquer Iraq would have been a 
: good thing.  

	For that matter, neither do I (for the reasons you state). It is the 
hypocrisy and claims the US did not help Iraq that make me angry, plus the
fact that the USA seems to believe it has the *right* to interfere where
is sees fit (i.e. has an interest) rather than a *duty* to intervene where
it is required. This is demonstrated by the failure of the US to do anything
about East Timor (and the region *is* becoming destabilised). The USA might
have done something approaching the right thing, given my reservations about
the uncessary number of civillian casualites, but for wholly the wrong reasons
and after having a hand in creating the situation.

: That in no way would affect the US later military action against Iraq.

	I did not suggest it would and it would be ridiculous to assert
otherwise. I was simply indicating the USA has previously aided Iraq.

: Intel on manufacturing techniques, or something of that nature? 

	No, apparently data (orginally from satellites although I doubt
that Iraq would have been given the raw data) concerning troop concentrations.

I suppose for the same reason that you do not believe in all the gods.  Why
should any be any different?  I use the same arguments to dismiss Koresh
as I do god.  Tell me, then, why do you not believe that Koresh is the son
of god?  By logic it is equally possible that Koresh is Jesus reborn. 

I recently read in a book that the TIFF version 6.0 specification was due
to be released in the spring of 1992.  I am interested in finding out about
the new features of the TIFF spec (and if it is out).  Specifically, I need
to know if TIFF 6.0 supports VQ decompression and/or image
tiling.

#|> #
#|> #False dichotomy.  You claimed the killing were *not* religiously
#|> #motivated, and I'm saying that's wrong.   I'm not saying that
#|> #each and every killing is religiously motivate, as I spelled out
#|> #in detail.
#|> 
#|> Which killings do you say are religously motivated?
#
#For example, I would claim that the recent assassination of four
#catholic construction workers who had no connection with the IRA
#was probably religously motivated.
#
#|> At the time
#|> of writing, I think that someone who claims the current violence is
#|> motivated by religion is reaching.
#
#What would you call is when someone writes "The killings in N.I 
#are not religously motivated?"

I'd say it was motivated by a primitive notion of revenge, and by
misguided patriotism.  Otherwise, I'd have to wonder how come mainland
catholics are not killed by mainland protestants, and southern
catholics are not killed by southern protestants, and so on.  Take away
all plausible causes bar religion, and the violence diminishes markedly.
Gee, why _is_ that?

#|> Now, it's possible to argue that 
#|> religion *in the past* is a major contributing factor to the violence in
#|> the present, but I don't know of any evidence that this is so - and I'm
#|> not enough of a historian to debate it. 
#
#Given that the avowed aim of the IRA is to take Northern Ireland
#into a country that has a particular church written into its 
#constitution, and which has restriction on civil rights dictated
#by that Church, I fail to see why the word "past" is appropriate.

The country also has a different official language written in its
constitution (and vice versa :-) - maybe they're motivated by a love of 
Irish poetry.  Your argument is fallacious, jon.

For what it's worth, I agree with all that you say about Ireland above, 
and more.

Jeffrey L. Cook sez;

Lazlo Nibble sez;

Actually, paving ground glass over Lichtenstein wouldn't demonstrate the
strength of Western Capitalism, since it's strength depends on use of
the mind and materials in the fulfillment of needs and desires.  Mind you,
I'm not saying *no-one* would benefit from glassed-over land, but I don't
think anyone would actually pay for it, unlike the (potential) billsats.

I don't quite follow you on the part about someone exposing their genitals
at parties, but I got a chuckle from it anyway.  And I thought I had some
strange friends :-)

-Tommy Mac

#                     
#                        A S T R O - F T P   L I S T
#                             Updated 28.04.1993
#
# This  is  a  short  description  of  anonymous-ftp  file  servers  containing
# astronomy  and space research related material.  I have  included only  those
# servers  where  there are  special subdirectories  for  astro stuff  or  much
# material  included into  a general  directories.  This list is not a complete
# data set of possible places,  so I would be very happy of all kind of notices
# and information depending on this listing.
#
# The newest version of this file is available via anonymous-ftp as:
#
#                nic.funet.fi:/pub/astro/general/astroftp.txt
#                                       
# There are also many mirror (copy) archives  for  simtel-20.army.mil (PC)  and 
# sumex-aim.stanford.edu (Mac) which are not included into this list. Only some
# of mirroring sites are listed.
#
#
#                                              Veikko Makela
#                                         Veikko.Makela@Helsinki.FI
#                                    *Computing Centre of Univ. Helsinki*
#                                      *Ursa Astronomical Association*   

# Server, IP                          # Contents                               
# Directories                                                                  
                                                                               
ames.arc.nasa.gov                     Spacecraf data and news,images,NASA data,
128.102.18.3                          Spacelink texts,VICAR software,FAQ
/pub/SPACE
     
arp.anu.edu.au                        Images
130.56.4.90
/pub/images/nasa

atari.archive.umich.edu               Atari                                    
141.211.164.8                                                                  
/atari/applications/astronomy                                                  
                                                                               
archive.afit.af.mil                   Satellite software,documents,elements
129.92.1.66
/pub/space
                                                                               
baboon.cv.nrao.edu                    AIPS document and patches,radioastronomy
192.33.115.103                        image processing,FITS test images
/pub/aips

c.scs.uiuc.edu                        ROSAT,Starchart(PC)                      
128.174.90.3                                                                   
/pub                                                                           
                                                                               
ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz                     PC
130.216.1.5
/msdos/astronomy                      (*) overseas connections refused

chara.gsu.edu                         Electronical Journal of ASA, Journal of
131.96.5.10                           ASA, SAC news
/

explorer.arc.nasa.gov                 Magellan, Viking and Voyager CDROMs
128.102.32.18
/cdrom

export.lcs.mit.edu                    XEphem distribution
18.24.0.12
/contrib/xephem

epona.physics.ucg.ie                  Some software, predictions, images,
140.203.1.3                           FITS info, miscellaneous
/pub/astro
/pub/fits

fits.cv.nrao.edu                      FITS documents, OS support, sample data,
192.33.115.8                          test files, sci.astro.fits archive
/FITS
                                                                               
ftp.cicb.fr                           Images
129.20.128.27
/pub/Images/ASTRO

ftp.cco.caltech.edu                   Astronomy magazine index 1991                                         
131.215.48.200                                                                 
/pub/misc                                                                      
                                                                               
ftp.cs.tu-berlin.de                   PC,Amiga,Mac,Unix,images,general
130.149.17.7

ftp.funet.fi                          PC,Mac,CP/M,Atari,Amiga,databases,Unix,
128.214.6.100                         HP48,OS/2,texts,News,solar reports,images,
/pub/astro                            Satellite elements,FAQ
                                                                               
ftp.uni-kl.de                         iauc,Vista image reduction,asteroids
131.246.9.95

garbo.uwasa.fi                        PC
128.214.87.1
/pc/astronomy                                                                  
                                                                               
gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at              images
128.130.39.16
/pub/spacegifs

hanauma.stanford.edu                  Unix, satellite program, images
36.51.0.16                                                                      
/pub/astro                                                                     
/pub/astropix

hysky1.stmarys.ca                     ECU distribution
140.184.1.1
/pcstuff

idlastro.gsfc.nasa.gov                IDL routines 
128.183.57.82
/
                                                                               
iraf.noao.edu                         IRAF Software                            
140.252.1.1                                                                    
/iraf                                                                          
                                                                               
julius.cs.qub.ac.uk                   Space Digest
143.117.5.6
/pub/SpaceDigestArchive

rata.vuw.ac.nz                        Astrophysical software
130.195.2.11
/pub/astrophys                                                                 
                                                                               
kilroy.jpl.nasa.gov                   Satellite elements,spacecraft info
128.149.1.165

ns3.hq.eso.org                        Test images, Standards
134.171.11.4
/pub/testimages
/pub/standards

nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov                  HST,IUE,Astro-1,NSSDCA info,Spacewarn,
128.183.36.23                         FITS standard                       
/                                                                         
                                                                               
plaza.aarnet.edu.au                   images,docs,Magellan
139.130.4.6
/graphics/graphics/astro
/magellan

pomona.claremont.edu                  Yale Bright Star Catalog
134.173.4.160
/YALE_BSC

pubinfo.jpl.nasa.gov                  JPL news, status reports, images
128.149.6.2
/

ra.nrl.navy.mil                       Mac
128.60.0.21
/MacSciTech/astro

rascal.ics.utexas.edu                 Mac                                      
128.83.138.20
/mac                                                                           
                                                                               
rigel.acs.oakland.edu                 PC
141.210.10.117
/pub/msdos/astronomy

rusmv1.rus.uni-stuttgart.de           Atari                                    
129.69.1.12                                                                    
/soft/atari/applications/astronomy                                             
                                                                               
simtel20.army.mil                     PC,CP/M                                  
192.88.110.20
/msdos/educ                                                                    
/cpm                                                                           
                                                                               
sol.deakin.oz.au                      garbo.uwasa.fi c.                        
128.184.1.1                                                                    
/pub/PC/chyde/astronomy                                                        
                                                                               
solbourne.solbourne.com               some PC programs
141.138.2.2
/pub/rp/as-is/astro

stardent.arc.nasa.gov                 Martian map                              
128.102.21.44                                                                  
/pub                                                                           
                                                                               
stsci.edu                             HSTMap(Mac),HST info                                       
130.167.1.2                                                                    
/Software                                                                      
                                                                               
sumex.stanford.edu                    Mac                                      
36.44.0.6                                                                      
/info-mac/app                                                                  
                                                                               
sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de            PC,misc
129.206.100.126

techreports.larc.nasa.gov             NASA Langley technical reports
128.155.3.58
/pub/techreports/larc

tetra.gsfc.nasa.gov                   FITSIO subroutines                             
128.183.8.77                                                                   
/pub
                                                                               
unbmvs1.csd.unb.ca                    Space geodesy,solar activity info
131.202.1.2
pub.canspace

vmd.cso.uiuc.edu                      Weather satellite images
128.174.5.98
/wx

world.std.com                         PC; source codes
192.74.137.5
/pub/astronomy

xi.uleth.ca                           Solar reports,auroral activity forecast
142.66.3.29                           maps,solar images,x-ray plot,coronal
/pub/solar                            emission plots

# Some abbreviations:
#
#   c = copy (mirror) of other archive

I would label him rather an original Christian, not a Pauline Christian,
though. Sad that the original church lost the game.

Cheers,
Kent

Hi there,
        I'm using POv-Ray on my IBM compatible at home, but I would like to 
run some things at work on our VAX computer. I believe there is a version 
of the source code for POV-ray that is VAX specific, but I'm not sure where 
to find it (I've looked at the several sites where the IBMPC version of it 
can be found). Can anyone help me?

I was wondering if anyone knows of a graphics package for the PC that
will do compositing of a series of pictures?

What I mean by "compositing" is, say I have a live video clip
(digitized) panning around a living room, and a computer-generated
bird flying around the screen.  I want to combine these two series of
pictures so that everywhere where the bird frames are black, I want
the living room picture to show through.  Yes, I realize I can do this
with a genlock, and I do own a genlock, but I want to be able to do
manual compositing also.  It's ok if I have to composite one frame at
a time; I assumed I'd have to do that anyway.  But being able to
composite a series of frames would be even better.

This is the story of Kent, the archetype Finn, that lives in the 
Bay Area, and tried to purchase Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason". This
man was driving around, to Staceys, to Books Inc, to "Well, Cleanlighted
Place", to Daltons, to various other places.

When he asked for this book, the well educated American book store
assistants in most placed asked him to check out the thriller section,
or then they said that his book has not been published yet, but they
should receive the book soon. In some places the assistants bluntly
said that they don't know of such an author, or that he is not 
a well known living author, so they don't keep copies of his books.

Such is the life and times of America, 200+ years after the revolution.

Cheers,
Kent

Peter> : > Does anyone have any  other suggestions where the 42 came from?

Peter> Yep, here's a theory that I once heard bandied around.  Rather than thinking
Peter> of the number think of the sound. For Tea Two. A sort of anagram on Tea For Two,
Peter> Two for Tea, For Tea Two.
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Un other suggestion is there is no Tea above! It just 
And For Two many things are possible; think binary, + -, Y/N,
L/R, T/F  No wonder there was Eve for Adam! 

Peter> :-)
 
Malek :-) :-)

--
 Malek.

Surely it was intended as wit.

By the way, which "atheist cause" were you referring to, Bill?

    Yes.  There are many methods of rendering, raytracing is one of them.
You didn't say what you mean by rendering, so I won't guess.  Methods of
rendering include:

        o  Pencil and graph paper, doing the math by hand

        o  Wireframe rendering of the 2D projection

        o  Hidden line rendering

        o  Scanline rendering using:
            - Painter's algorithm.
            - BSP trees.
            - Z buffer
            - Other

        o  Raytracing

        o  Radiosity

        o  Holographic projection to film

        o  Combination of any of the above

Re; Response from CoB of Boeing on SSTO ...
  
   Boeing has been looking at several TSTO vehicles and has carried
out extensive conceptual studies of advanced launch systems for some
time.  A good reference on this might be: "Comparison of Propulsion
Options for Advanced Earth-To-Orbit (ETO) Applications (IAF-92-
0639)." by V.A. Weldon and L.E. Fink from Boeing.   The paper
describes a propane-fueled TSTO launch system claimed to achieve
aircraft-like operational efficiencies without the problems
associated with liquid hydrogen fuel.  Basically, it's a high-speed
airplane launching a Hermes-type spaceplane
   The design (the concept is also called "Beta") as laid out in the
paper can launch at least 10,000 pounds into polar orbit, or 20,000
pounds to space station orbit including a crew of eight persons and
life support.  System design reliability is .9995.
   Beta is a 360-foot-long first stage powered by two large ramjets
and 12 high- speed civil transport (HSCT) turbofans.  A 108-foot-
long reusable orbiter is trapeze-mounted in the belly of the first-
stage aircraft, which also could accommodate a longer and heavy
payload on an expendable second stage.
   To launch the orbital vehicle, the first stage takes off like a
normal HSCT and accelerates to Mach 3.  At that point the turbofans,
modified to burn catalyzed JP-7, would shut off and the ramjets,
would take over.  At Mach 5.5 the orbiter or the ELV would swing
out, ignite and proceed to orbit. Both vehicles would land like
aircraft at the conclusion of their respective missions.
   Estimated total weight of the combined configuration at takeoff
is about 1.5 M lbs, roughly equivalanet to a fully loaded An-225.
The orbiter stages weighs about 400,Klbs including 335 Klbs
of LOX and subcooled propane to power two 250 Klbs vacuum thrust
rocket engines. Propellants would be stored at 91 degrees Kelvin,
with the propane in a spherical tank mounted forward of the 15-by-
25-foot cargo bay and the two-seat orbiter crew station. LOX would
be stored aft.  Weldon and Fink claim the key to this design's
success is the structurally efficient airframe and the compact
tankage allowed by the high-density supercooled hydrocarbon fuel.
     The paper compares TSTO design to SSTO design.  They conclude
while a SSTO has a slightly lower recurring cost, a TSTO is easier,
cheaper, and less risky to develop, simpler to build, has greater
safety and mission versatility and doesn't carry the hard-to-handle
and bulky hydrogen fuel. The conlcude "In conjunction with its major
use of airplane type engines and fuel, as well as its inherent self-
ferry capability, it is probably the system most likely to provide
as close to airline-like operations as possible with a practical
configuration, until a single stage airbreather/rocket concept can
be shown to be operationally viable."
  
   Weldon and others at Boeing have been working on TSTO designs for
some time.  I expect this, or a similar concept (perhaps the HTHL
SSTO they proposed for the SDIO SSTO first phase) is being re-
examined as a basis for a bid on the first phase of SpaceLifter.
   Does it threaten DC-???.  Possibly -- There is a set of on-going
studies trying straighten out the government's future space
transportation strategy.  MDC and Boeing (as well as other firms)
are providing data to a joint study team back in DC.  There are
various factions and options vying for attention -- including
shuttle upgrades, shuttle replacement (what was called the "4-2-3"
architecture), SpaceLifter, ELV upgrades, and various advanced
vehicles (ALES, Beta, DC-??, NASP, FSTS, SSTOs of several types,
etc.)  NASA/DOD/DOT are trying to put together a coherent strategy
for future US gov't space transportation systems, and trying to
juggle near-term launch needs (like for DoD and NASA) against
medium-term needs (including commercial considerations), and against
the investment and risk of going to "leap frog" new technologies
like SDIO/SSTO and NASP and Beta.
   It's a heck of a problem.  The worst part of the problem isn't
that there aren't promising ideas and concepts -- there are dozens
of them -- but how they balance cost and risk versus real needs in
the near term.  They should have a draft report in mid-June, with a
final report coming by the end of the fiscal year.
  
: 	I was recently talking to a possible employer ( mine! :-) ) and he made a reference to a
: 48-bit graphics computer/image processing system.  I seem to remember it being called IMAGE or
: something akin to that.  Anyway, he claimed it had 48-bit color + a 12-bit alpha channel.  That's
: 60 bits of info--what could that possibly be for?  Specifically the 48-bit color?  That's 280
: trillion colors, many more than the human eye can resolve.  Is this an anti-aliasing thing?  Or
: is this just some magic number to make it work better with a certain processor.

	I'm pretty sure most industry strength image processing specific 
systems (i.e. photo processing gear) use as much as 96 bits of color info.
Why? Why not, oversampling is never a bad idea especially if the
hardware's only task is image manipulation, and profressional photographers
demand professional results.

: 	Also, to settle a bet with my roommate, what are SGI's flagship products?  I know of
: Iris, Indigo, and Crimson, but what are the other ones, and which is their top-of-the-line?
: (sadly, I have access to none of them.  Just a DEC 5000/25.  Sigh.)

	Strange question, but anyway, there's the VGX line, the newer
Indigo^2, and the Onyx systems are the new big boys on the block (you
can get a 24 processor system with twice the graphics performance of
a reality engine). There's more, but I don't have my handy "periodic 
table of sgi's" on me...

A few days ago I got a mail concerning bitmap-stretching
from SCOTT LEATHAM @ Microsoft Redmond WA, USA.
I really would like to answer back to him, but I have 
lost his email-address.
So if Scott or anybody that knows his email-address
reads this, please mail me his address so I can
answer his mail.

Please mail to : d91tm@efd.lth.se

In some sense, I think that the folks who think the idea is wonderful, and the
folks who want to boycott anyone who has anything to do with this project are
both right.

That is, I think that space advertising is an interesting idea, and if someone
wants to try it out, more power to them. However, a company may discover that
the cost of launch is not the only cost of advertising, and a company who 
gauged that ill will would lose them more revenue than the advertising would
gain might decide to bow out of the project.

I got incensed when I read that Carl Sagan called this idea an "abomination." 
I don't think that word means what he thinks it does. Children starving in the
richest country in the world is an abomination; an ad agency is at worst just
in poor taste.

How come noone mentions Eric Hoffer when talking about 
fanatic behavior anymore?

	I'm not sure that you can distinguish between myth and legend so
neatly, or at all.  A myth is more than a single story.  The thought 
structure and world-paradigm in which that story is interpreted is as
important a part of the myth as the story itself.  Thus, I can think of
no story which is meant to be conveyed understandably from one person
to another within a single culture which won't rest upon that underlying
thought structure, and thus transmit some of that culture's mythical
"truths" along with it.  

********NOTE: FOLLOWUPS go to alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,talk.origins!

[deleted]

If you say X statement and give it the authority of fact, I will respond
by asking you why. You aren't obligated to say anything, but if your
intent is to convince me that X statement is true, then yes, the burden
of proof is upon you. 

If you are merely giving testimony to your beliefs, then you are an egotist.
Why would I care?

To surmise, the burden of proof is upon you if you wish us to believe that
what you say is true.

Mathew:

Could you let us know when this happened, so I can see if my version
is as up-to-date as possible?  I try to re-save the FAQs once in a 
while, but otherwise I ignore their regular postings, so I wouldn't 
generally notice such a change.

And I like to stay current.

Thanks,

Sounds like you were going to a different Penn State or something.
Kampus Krusade for Khrist is very vocal here, but they really have
little power to get anything done.  Sometimes it seems like there
are a lot of them because they're generally more vocal than their
opposition, but there really aren't that many Krusaders.

The liberals tend to keep to themselves if they can help it, since
all they really want is to be allowed to go about their own lives
the way they want to.  ...so you don't hear from or about most of
them.  The bible-bangers stand out because they want everyone to
be forced to live according to bible-banger rules.

The Krusaders certainly don't run this place.

I'd say we've got a rather average mix. of people here....
much like the rest of the U.S.  And just like everywhere else,
some factions are louder than others.

Hello all,
   I need to make  some torso 3D scans and would like the phone numbers of
companies in the midwest that make scans, and the numbers of companies that
make the sanners (ie Cyberware). Does anyone have an idea of how much a
single scan costs and the best format to save it in? I am not sure on what
software platform I will be using it in, probably either Softimage or
Wavefront. So I think a spline based format would be best. Please forward the
numbers to me personally as I am having problems accessing USENET lately.

Hello Ceci:

     My name is Tony and I have a few comments on your "rosicrucian"
adventure. I hereby state that I am not claiming or denying membership in
any Order, fraternity etc. with or without the word "Rosicrucian" in the 
name of the organization. I only claim having done some "homework" :-)

     This is intended as a friendly article and if at times it seems
different, it's my lack of writing skills showing, nothing else. Heck,
English may be my second language! (And then again maybe not by now :-)

     I proceed:
     Let's start with the name "Rosicrucian". I took me a long time to come

     I'd prefer if you would have stated up front that it was the Lectorium

     Anyway, the Lectorium Rosicrucianum claims they
descend (at least in part) from what was the "Gold-und-Rosenkreuz" (Golden
and Rosy Cross), from the 18th century. There were two "Golden and Rosy
Cross", the first (chronologically) more alchemical, the second with
Masonic tinges, but their history is the subject of a complete chapter :-).

     "You'll have to trust me" when I tell you that if that

     Again, instead of R:s, it should be "Lectorium Rosicrucianum" :-). It
is curious to know that 3 other RC 'orders' (in the USA) claim to be *non-

     The Cathars were a 'heretic' christian sect that directly challenged
the 'authority' of the medieval catholic church. They flourished during the
12th century, century which saw the religious zeal expressed in the
crusades and also the growing disillusion with the catholic church and the
worldly ways of its clerics. It was largely in response to the church's
unseemly pomp and splendor that Catharism took root, first in northern
Italy, then throughout the south of France.

     I don't see nothing *fundamentally* wrong with "us containing

     For a moment I thought you were referring to Madison Ave :-)
(Madison avenue in New York City is where the most influential (read
$$$) *commercial* advertising is produced here in the USA :-)

Peace,

Tony

 Wanna bet ??? You must be too young to remember Bob Askin :-)
Read the Costigan commision report if you want to know about corruption
in OZ.

[Jesus' comments about how Christians have to follow the OT deleted...]

Exodus 31:12-17.  How many people have you put to death for working on
the Sabbath?

Leviticus 17:10.  How as that medium-rare steak last night?

Leviticus 19:19.  What did you wear to work friday?

Deutromony 18:1.  I can you can now justify discrimination.

Right.

She is.

This is always an option: when the sect is causing harm, re-label
the cult to something else.

Cheers,
Kent

Could someone please tell me the Best FTP'able viewer available for MSDOS
I am running a 486 33mhz with SVGA monitor.
I need to look at gifs mainly and it would be advantageous if it ran
under windows...........thanks

Yes, I have both Arts & Letters and CorelDraw.  I personally like
Arts & Letters better but there are things I like about Arts & Letters
that CorelDraw doesn't do an vice-versa.  I haven't found the perfect
graphics program that does everything yet.  

My favorite feature from CorelDraw is that it imports alot of different
formats.  Arts & Letters does not.  I like the thousands of clipart
available with Arts & Letters.  However, I do find looking them up
in a book and referencing them by number to be annoying.

One of my major problems is that there isn't any programs available on
the market for the artistically deprived :-).  

...
I believe that my former employer Hughes Aircraft Company has a working Ion 
Propulsion system for satellites.

A good reason (which is why many companies use it) for 48 bits / pixel
is so you can use double buffering (for animating scenes) - i.e. you have
2 * 24-bit planes. You write to the one in the background, and then FLIP! 
-- the entire screen updates to the second image-plane. The screen updates 
in one refresh and you don't see different objects appearing in the order 
that they're drawn (as in the CAD/MacDraw effect). Now your ready to update 
the image that used to be in the foreground.

Steve. (thssstb@iitmax.iit.edu / iris.iit.edu)

(Book Review):
          
          "THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION", by Dewey B. Larson, 1984, North 
          Pacific Publishers, Portland, Oregon, 456 pages, indexed, 
          hardcover. 
          
               "THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION" contains FINAL SOLUTIONS to 
          most ALL astrophysical mysteries. 
          
               This book is Volume III of a revised and enlarged 
          edition of "THE STRUCTURE OF THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE", 1959.  
          Volume I is "NOTHING BUT MOTION" (1979), and Volume II is 
          "THE BASIC PROPERTIES OF MATTER" (1988). 
          
               Most books and journal articles on the subject of 
          astrophysics are bristling with integrals, partial 
          differentials, and other FANCY MATHEMATICS.  In this book, by 
          contrast, mathematics is conspicuous by its absence, except 
          for some relatively simple formulas imbedded in the text.  
          Larson emphasizes CONCEPTS and declares that mathematical 
          agreement with a theory does NOT guarantee its conceptual 
          validity. 
          
               Dewey B. Larson was a retired engineer with a Bachelor 
          of Science Degree in Engineering Science from Oregon State 
          University.  He developed the Theory described in his books 
          while trying to find a way to MATHEMATICALLY CALCULATE the 
          properties of chemical compounds based ONLY on the elements 
          they contain. 
          
               "THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION" describes the astrophysical 
          portions of Larson's CONSISTENT, INTEGRATED, COMPREHENSIVE, 
          GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe, a kind of 
          "grand unified field theory" that orthodox physicists and 
          astro-physicists CLAIM to be looking for.  It is built on two 
          postulates about the physical and mathematical nature of 
          
               (1) The physical universe is composed ENTIRELY of ONE 
          units, and with two RECIPROCAL aspects, SPACE and TIME. 
          
               (2) The physical universe conforms to the relations of 
          ORDINARY COMMUTATIVE mathematics, its primary magnitudes are 
          ABSOLUTE, and its geometry is EUCLIDEAN. 
          
               From these two postulates, Larson was able to build a 
          COMPLETE theoretical universe, from photons and subatomic 
          particles to the giant elliptical galaxies, by combining the 
          concept of INWARD AND OUTWARD SCALAR MOTIONS with 
          translational, vibrational, rotational, and rotational-
          vibrational motions.  At each step in the development, he was 
          able to match parts of his theoretical universe with 
          corresponding parts in the real physical universe, including 
          EVEN THINGS NOT YET DISCOVERED.  For example, in his 1959 
          book, he first predicted the existence of EXPLODING GALAXIES, 
          several years BEFORE astronomers started finding them.  They 
          are a NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of his comprehensive Theory.  And 
          when quasars were discovered, he had a related explanation 
          ready for those also. 
          
               As a result of his theory, which he called "THE 
          RECIPROCAL SYSTEM", Larson TOTALLY REJECTED many of the 
          sacred doctrines of orthodox physicists and astrophysicists, 
          including black holes, neutron stars, degenerate matter, 
          quantum wave mechanics (as applied to atomic structure), 
          "nuclear" physics, general relativity, relativistic mass 
          increases, relativistic Doppler shifts, nuclear fusion in 
          stars, and the big bang, all of which he considered to be 
          nothing more than MATHEMATICAL FANTASIES.  He was very 
          critical of the AD HOC assumptions, uncertainty principles, 
          solutions in principle, "no other way" declarations, etc., 
          used to maintain them. 
          
               "THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION" is divided into 31 chapters.  
          It begins with a description of how galaxies are built from 
          the gravitational attraction between globular star clusters, 
          which are formed from intergalactic gas and dust clouds that 
          accumulate from the decay products of cosmic rays coming in 
          from the ANTI-MATTER HALF of the physical universe.  (Galaxy 
          formation from the MYTHICAL "big bang" is a big mystery to 
          orthodox astronomers.)  He then goes on to describe life 
          cycles of stars and how binary and multiple star systems and 
          solar systems result from Type I supernova explosions of 
          SINGLE stars. 
          
               Several chapters are devoted to quasars which, according 
          to Larson, are densely-packed clusters of stars that have 
          been ejected from the central bulges of exploding galaxies 
          and are actually traveling FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT 
          (although most of that speed is AWAY FROM US IN TIME). 
          
               Astronomers and astrophysicists who run up against 
          observations that contradict their theories would find 
          Larson's explanations quite valuable if considered with an 
          OPEN MIND.  For example, they used to believe that GAMMA RAY 
          BURSTS originated from pulsars, which exist primarily in the 
          plane or central bulge of our galaxy.  But the new gamma ray 
          telescope in earth orbit observed that the bursts come from 
          ALL DIRECTIONS UNIFORMLY and do NOT correspond with any 
          visible objects, (except for a few cases of directional 
          coincidence).  Larson's explanation is that the gamma ray 
          bursts originate from SUPERNOVA EXPLOSIONS in the ANTI-MATTER 
          HALF of the physical universe, which Larson calls the "cosmic 
          sector".  Because the anti-matter universe exists in a 
          RECIPROCAL RELATION to our material universe, with the speed 
          of light as the BOUNDARY between them, and has THREE 
          dimensions of time and ONLY ONE dimension of space, the 
          bursts can pop into our material universe ANYWHERE seemingly 
          at random. 
          
               Larson heavily quotes or paraphrases statements from 
          books, journal articles, and leading physicists and 
          astronomers.  In this book, 351 of them are superscripted 
          with numbers identifying entries in the reference list at the 
          end of the book.  For example, a quote from the book 
          "Astronomy: The Cosmic Journey", by William K. Hartmann, 
          says, "Our hopes of understanding all stars would brighten if 
          we could explain exactly how binary and multiple stars 
          form.... Unfortunately we cannot."  Larson's book contains 
          LOGICAL CONSISTENT EXPLANATIONS of such mysteries that are 
          WORTHY OF SERIOUS CONSIDERATION by ALL physicists, 
          astronomers, and astrophysicists. 

          please consult my CITED SOURCES (Larson's BOOKS). 

          IMPORTANT Book Review is ENCOURAGED. 

Does anyone know if the fabled /new/ version of PBM+ will be out soon.  As
far as I know the /current/ version is 10dec91.
Jeff P. are you out there ? ?? ?

I read it. I found it wonderful. For some reason (no flames,
please), I was reminded of Hemingway, Carl Orff and Van Gogh (not
all at once, though).

The 68070 is made by someone other than Motorola (Signetics perhaps),
and was (if memory serves me correctly) a 68000 compatible single chip
micro type chip. IE built in extra toys like serial ports, ram
interfaces etc. So, laugh all you want, but there is such a critter!

: The willingness of true believers
: to die for their belief, be it in Jesus or Jim Jones, is
: well-documented, so martyrdom in and of itself says little.

It does say something about the depth of their belief.  Religion has
both deluded believers and con men.  The difference is often how far
they will follow their beliefs.

I have no first hand, or even second hand, knowledge of how the 
original apostles died.  If they began a myth in hopes of exploiting
it for profit, and followed that myth to the death, that would be
inconsistent.  Real con men would bail out when it was obvious it would 
lead to discomfort, pain and death.

+In article <1993May7.211312.10403@bert.eecs.uic.edu>, rsc@siggraph.org
+|>           Computer Graphics experimental special online issue
+|>                                May 1993
+|> 
+|> The May 1993 experimental special issue of Computer Graphics is online 
+|> as a set of files on the  siggraph.org  system in the directory 
+|>      ~ftp/publications/May_93_online 
+|> This is made available to the computer graphics community by ACM 
+|> SIGGRAPH.  The general theme of this issue is electronic documents, and 
+|> the Table of Contents in the AboutThisIssue files will tell you more 
+|> about this publication and its contents.
+
+        I ftp'd here, but found nothing.  Has this been removed?

Nope, it's still there:

Jesus did not say that he was the fulfillment of the Law, and, unless
I'm mistaken, heaven and earth have not yet passed away. Am I mistaken?
And, even assuming that one can just gloss over that portion of the word
of Jesus, do you really think that "all is accomplished?"

Then why didn't Jesus say "Any Jew who annuls ..." in v. 19? Are you
saying that all of Jesus' recorded words mean nothing to Gentiles? Are
you really saying that Jesus only spoke for and to the Jews? Jesus
didn't mention your name, does that mean he wasn't speaking to you? When
you read the words of Jesus, do you think he is speaking to someone
other than you?

You said above that Jesus was the "fulfillment" of the Law. Are you
saying that does not mean "doing away with the Law"?

Gen3:15(JPS) I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between
your offspring and hers; they shall strike at your head, and you shall
strike at their heel.

Gen3:15(NRSV) I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your
offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his
heel."

Gen3:15(KJV) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and
between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt
bruise his heel.

Looks like your translation has taken a few liberties with the Word?

Only "helping the Jewish people?"

You are using your interpretation of Paul as an argument against the
clear words of Jesus?

"Re-expressed?" Care to define that a bit better?

What? Are heaven and earth gone away? Where did they go? Is all
accomplished, for example Revelations? Explain please.

Again, your interpretation of Paul versus the clear word of Jesus. Do
you see any problems here? When did heaven and earth go away? When was
all accomplished?

   Henry, if I read you correctly, you may be asking "If I put a blackbody
in interstellar space ('disregarding the Sun and nearby large warm objects'),
what termperature will it reach in thermal equilibrium with the ambient
radiation field?"

   If that's the case, let me point out that interstellar dust and 
molecules provide many instances of things that are, well, not-too-far
from being blackbodies.  Many different observations, including IRAS
and COBE, have determined that interstellar dust grain temperatures
can range from 40K to 150K.  You might look in a conference proceedings
"Interstellar Processes", ed. D. J. Hollenbach and H. A. Thronson, Jr.,
published in 1987.  Try the articles by Tielens et al., Seab, and 
Black.

   Inside the disk of the galaxy, the temperature varies quite a bit
from place to place (how close are you to the nearest OB association,
I would guess).  Outside the galaxy, of course, things aren't so 
varied.

   I hope this is what you were looking for....

Did you by any chance see the pictures of the agents in flak jackets climbing
up on the roof and breaking windows.  You call that peaceful?  If you
believed, as these people did, that they would be attacked by evil forces
from the outside, found the scores of agents breaking into your compound
what would you do?  Your beliefs always determine your actions.  The
beliefs may be wrong from my point of view but they are yours all the same.

To make it more practical.  If I attempted to stick you with a needle you
would try to stop me because you believe it would hurt, or that I do not
have that right.  If you did not you would ignore me.  You certainly would
it you saw me sticking the needle in a tree.

Koresh may have been misguided, only God knows.  But the Jews at Masada
died for what they believed, the three Hebrews preferred to die in the
furnace rather than bow down, Daniel preferred to die in a lion's den
rather than stop praying to his God, and as a Christian I am prepared to
die for my faith.

Koresh was not dying for now reason.  He had a cause.  Why should he give
up the children to forces he was convinced were evil.  The events are
bizarre but they match his beliefs.

Is this still in print or available (other than on loan)?  I remember
reading this many years ago and it's still the best thing I remember
in this vein.

-- 

How can one dump to the printer, the content of a VGA screen. If it were
a text screen, we can execute a shift printscr. but with graphics, we have
to do a pixed by pixel print. It would be greatly appreciated if someone can
supply source code for this. Alternately, are there commercial or shareware
programs that are available to do this. I must be able to shell out of my 
program to execute this print screen.  Therefore, it would be prefferable to have source code.

Thank you in advance

-- 
Rickey Tom                       | Internet Style: aruba!rickt@uu2.psi.com
Programmer/Analyst Project ZE    | UUCP          : ...!uunet!uupsi2!aruba!rickt

#[reply to frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer)]
# 
#>>The problem for the objectivist is to determine the status of moral
#>>truths and the method by which they can be established.  If we accept
#>>that such judgements are not reports of what is but only relate to
#>>what ought to be (see naturalistic fallacy) then they cannot be proved
#>>by any facts about the nature of the world.
# 
#>This can be avoided in at least two ways: (1) By leaving the Good
#>undefined, since anyone who claims that they do not know what it is is
#>either lying or so out of touch with humanity as to be undeserving of a
#>reply.
# 
#If the Good is undefined (undefinable?) but you require of everyone that
#they know innately what is right, you are back to subjectivism.

No, and begging the question.  see below.

#>(2) By defining the Good solely in terms of evaluative terms.
# 
#Ditto here.  An evaluative statement implies a value judgement on the
#part of the person making it.

Again, incorrect, and question-begging.  See below.
#
#>>At this point the objectivist may talk of 'self-evident truths'
# 
#Pretty perceptive, that Prof. Flew.
# 
#>>but can he deny the subjectivist's claim that self-evidence is in the
#>>mind of the beholder?
# 
#>Of course; by denying that subject/object is true dichotomy.
# 
#Please explain how this helps.  I don't see your argument.

I don't see yours.  It seems to rest on the assertion that everything
is either a subject or an object.  There's nothing compelling about that
dichotomy.  I might just as well divide the world into subject,object,
event.  It even seems more sensible.  Causation, for example, is
an event, not a subject or an object.  

Furthermore, if subject/object were true dichotomy, i.e.

	Everything is either a subject or an object

Then, is that statement a self-evident truth or not?  If so, then it's 
all in the mind of the beholder, according to the relativist, and hardly 
compelling.  Add to that the fact that the world can quickly be shoved
in its entirety into the "subjective" category by an idealist or 
solipsist argument, and that we have this perfectly good alternate
set of categories (subject, object, event) [which can be reduced
to (subject, object, quality) without any logical difficulty] and why
yes, I guess I *am* denying that self-evident truths are all in the mind of 
the beholder.

#>>If not, what is left of the claim that some moral judgements are true?

All of it.

#>If nothing, then NO moral judgements are true.  This is a thing that
#>is commonly referred to as nihilism.  It entails that science is of
#>no value, irrepective of the fact that some people find it useful.  How
#>anyone arrives at relativism/subjectivism from this argument beats me.
# 
#This makes no sense either.  Flew is arguing that this is where the
#objectivist winds up, not the subjectivist.  Furthermore, the nihilists
#believed in nothing *except* science, materialism, revolution, and the
#People.

I'm referring to ethical nihilism

#>>The subjectivist may well feel that all that remains is that there are
#>>some moral judgements with which he would wish to associate himself.
#>>To hold a moral opinion is, he suggests, not to know something to be
#>>true but to have preferences regarding human activity."
# 
#>And if those preferences should include terrorism, that moral opinion
#>is not true.  Likewise, if the preferences should include noTerrorism,
#>that moral opinion is not true.  Why should one choose a set of
#>preferences which include terrorisim over one which includes
#>noTerrorism?  Oh, no reason.  This is patently absurd....
# 
#And also not the position of the subjectivist, as has been pointed out
#to you already by others.  Ditch the strawman, already, and see my reply
#to Mike Cobb's root message in the thread Societal Basis for Morality.

I've responded over there.  BTW - I don't intend this as a strawman, but
as something logically entailed by relativism (really any ethical system
where values are assumed to be unreal).  It's different to say "Relativists
say..." than "relativism implies...".

   I need help in creating my 4x4 perspective matrix.  I'd like to use this for
   transforming x, y, z, w in some texture mapping code I got from Graphics Gems
   I.  I have many books which talk about this, but none of them in simple plain
   english.  If you have Graphics Gems I, I'm talking about page 678.

   I'd like to have a perspective matrix that handles different field-of-views
   and aspect of course.  Thank's for your help.

ca2 = cos(alpha / 2) Horizontal
sa2 = sin(alpha / 2)
cb2 = cos(beta / 2) Vertical
sb2 = sin(beta 7 2)
Zf = Far clipping value
Zn = Near clipping value

Matrix:
[[ca2/sa2 0 0 0]
[0 cb2/sb2 0 0]
[0 0 Zf/(Zf-Zn) 1]
[0 0 -Zn*Zf/(Zf-Zn) 0]]

Hello networld!

I'm looking for documentation/books on parametric drafting.

Does anyone know of such material, electronic on a Gopher/ftp-site
or books/authors.

Im not looking for commercial software rather info on implementation 
and theory of the subject. Im planning to make a parametric
generator for autocad and i would need some referance.

Everything you know is of interest!

Thanks in advace!!

//Lasse

-- 

God never changes.  He still loves us.  Sending Jesus was one of His
attempts to reconcile with mankind.  The nature of God has not changed.

Sinning in the face of God was punishable by immediate death.  There are
several OT passages to back this up.  God is God.  He cannot tolerate
the prescence of sin in His midst.  And the Israelites knew this!  And
still, some of them chose to disobey and were destroyed.  Were these
people KIND and LOVing themselves?  God gave them every break He could
but in the end, He really had no choice in the matter.  Seeing as how
we were failing to achieve salvation on our own, He sent His Son to die
for us - to be the ultimate sin offering.  Now we live in the age of
grace.

He sent His Son as a consolation to us, out of love.
 
Hey, let's be fair for a moment here.  KIND and LOVING does not mean
a free ride.  There is an amount of give and take as in any relationship.
Parents are supposed to be kind and loving but does that mean that 
children can do whatever they want?  NOT!  Part of being a parent means
administering punishment when the child is at fault.  Part of being a 
parent means giving instruction.  God tests us through the trial of
life such that we may grow stronger.  He teaches what is right and 
what is wrong.  The consequences of our actions are made clear to us,
be it Heaven or be it Hell.  If God did not follow through with what
He has warned us about, He would not be a very good parent.

In parenting, if a parent issues a warning but does not follow through
with it, the children will not take that parent's words very seriously.
God does the same by telling us who have ears to hear what to do and
what not to do.  By life's trials, we see the folly of doing our own
will rather than His.  He warns us about the consequences of rejecting
Him when it comes time for Judgement.  Do we follow Him?

I will.

Dave,

	What i recall from air craft maintence.  Torqque  and safety
wires or cotters  were more important, then if some bolt
face were nicked up.  If it was in bad shape you replaced it
with another $30,  aircraft grade bolt.  I can see adjustable spanners
eating up profit,  but lives?

  Me too.  Our local used book store is the second largest on the
  West Coast, and I couldn't find a copy there.  I guess atheists
  hold their bibles in as much esteem as the theists.

Liefting> The alt.* hierarchie is created for 2 purposes: 1. For
Liefting> groups which do not fit under the comp.* or other 'official'
Liefting> hierarchies 2. For the fast creation of hot new newsgroups
Liefting> like alt.gulf.war

Liefting> Because there is no voting process or any other control
Liefting> facilities, sites are free to decide not to carry (some of)
Liefting> the alt groups.

Liefting> Therefore, it is (I think) desirable to try to create
Liefting> comp.graphics.  {raytrace, rendering or whatever} and not an
Liefting> alt-group

Plus, *many* sites, (especially many .com sites) do not carry any alt
newsgroups. (We don't for example.) A comp.* group will get a much broader
distribution and would be useful to many more people. Plus the topic is
important/popular enough to warrant its own group, IMHO.

Sorry that's an aesthetics argument.  maybe this string shoudl mofe to
sci.space.aesthetics.

Planes  ruin the night sky.  Blimps ruin the night sky.  Radio towers
ruin the night sky.  

. . . David gives good explaination of the deductions from the isotropic,
'edged' distribution, to whit, they are either part of the Universe or
part of the Oort cloud.

Why couldn't they be Earth centred, with the edge occuring at the edge
of the gravisphere? I know there isn't any mechanism for them, but there
isn't a mechanism for the others either.

Both xli and xloadimage will display in 24 bit color if a 24 bit visual
is available.  Check the output of xdpyinfo to see if one is.

   To you, it shouldn't matter if you do evil things or good things.  It is
   all meaningless in the end anyway.  So go rob a bank.  Go tell someone
   you dislike that he is a dirty rotten slime bag.  What's restraining you?

Ha!

Watch me. It flies. It lands. It gets rebuilt.

That's not what they told us back in the '70's.

1. It isn't a logical follow-on. A logical follow-on would have
been either a Russian "snowfox" type thingey (for the lifting bodies)
or something like MMI's Space Van (or Boeing's TSTO, or the airbreathing
TSTO the military is allegedly _using_ now that probably cost less
to develop than the shuttle does to fly for a year).

Keep that attitude, and it'll be a couple centuries before we get real
access to space, unless another country without all that baggage comes
along and kicks our ass in the space race.

Or NASA HQ. That doesn't give the rest of the program plausible deniability
if we deceide that it wasn't worth the money we've spent, which is by now
probably a lot more than Apollo.

Yes, but it gets sold on the basis of the political statements.
You're saying basically that it met the engineering specs (which is
questionable, IMHO) so it's a success, never mind that you couldn't
get the funding the shuttle eats with those engineering specs in
a thousand years.

You can get hypersonic flight data with an X-15 or a follow-on X-15
type vehicle for much less.

And economics and engineering are interchangable; engineering in the
absense of economics is basically just physics, and in terms of physics,
the shuttle looks like a failure next to the X-15.

HS>Sorry, support that I can arrange for launchers all goes to launchers
HS>that I have some hope of riding some day.  At the moment, that's
HS>DC-X's hoped-for successors.

The shuttle program has a bad record. I _once_ had hopes for the
shuttle program. By now I know those hopes were false. 

All I have for DC-X and similar and dissimilar experimental vehicles
are hopes. But at least I know they aren't false hopes yet.

I did support the shuttle, way back when. It didn't do nearly what
it was supposed to. It's time to move on to something that might do
the job of orbital delivery better. Or at all.

We don't want to learn how to operate on orbit. It launches, it
shoves out the payload, it lands. It doesn't waste payload hauling
up and down EDO pallets and the like.

The only thing to be learned from shuttle is how *not* to build a
launcher.

Finally: that bit about the "proven" shuttle. Are you hoping you can
tell a lie enough times and get someone to believe it?

How much science and technology could have been done is the money spent
on shuttle had been spent differently?

...

Learn about economics and the current budget realities in the United States,
please.

So instead you are asking individual citizens to place themselves at risk
by assuming that everyone who claims to be a cop, actually is a cop.
Around here the police have actually made public service announcements saying
that if you are a lady driving by yourself at night and you see blue lights
flashing behind you. Do not pull over until you reach a well lit, preferably
occupied place, gas station etc.

It wouldn't be murder, it would be self defense.

Yes, atheists tend to claim self control and self ownership. Are you saying
that theists claim to not have self control? I don't think atheists are
"dominantly arrogant." They don't claim some god that has supremacy over
all of mankind. Now this claim would be arrogant, but atheists don't claim 
it. Most atheists do claim to own themselves. I think any disagreement with
this claim of self ownership would be supremely arrogant.

And from whence does this right stem, that it overrides the 'rights'
of the rest of us?

And if you want to view that television station, you have to watch the
commercials.  You can't turn them off and still be viewing the
television station.  In other words, if you don't like what you see,
don't look.  There is no 'right' I can think of that you have to force
other people to conform to your idea of aesthetic behaviour.  What's
next, laws regulating how people must dress and look so as to appeal
to your fashion sense, since you have this 'right' of an aesthetic
view? 

Which has what to do with the topic of discussion?

Oh, I see.  You don't want any legislation that might impinge on you;
you just want everyone else on the planet to do what you want.

-- 

I propose that PepsiCo, Mcdonalds and other companies could put 
into orbit banners that have timely political messages, such as,

     "Stop the slaughter in Bosnia!"

, etc.

I'll vote for anything where they don't feel constrained to use stupid
and ugly PC phrases to replace words like 'manned'.  If they think
they need to do that, they're more than likely engaging in 'politics
and public relations as usual' rather than seriously wanting to
actually get into space.  So that eliminates Option "A" from the
running.  What do they call a manned station in Option "C"?

[I'm actually about half serious about that.  People should be more
concerned with grammatical correctness and actually getting a working
station than they are with 'Political Correctness' of terminology.]

-- 

Hey,

   I am looking for C-algorithm, which decide,whether a 3D-Point is
   inside a space which was defined by 8 x 3D-points.
   With a space defined by 8 x 3D-points, I mean a space defined by
   6 closed 3D meshes defined by 8 points. Like this :

              _____
             /    /|
            /____/ |
            |    | |
            |    | /
            |____|/

   But in this simple example, the sides are parallel, but my problem,
   the sides can be non parallel and the opposite sides must not have
   the same size etc. Please mail me your informations !

   Thanks for your great efforts

      Oliver

     You'll find that in Allen, C.W., "Astrophysical Quantities", Athlone
Press, Dover, NH, 3rd edition, pp. 268-269 (1973).  To the accuracy it can
be calculated (see specific references in Allen about how it is
calculated), the temperature is 3 degrees K.

     Lots of people have remarked on this temperature.  The first may have
been in Eddington's book, "Internal Constitution of Stars", Ch. 13 (1926;
reprinted 1986), where he gives the "temperature of space" as 3 degrees.

     The source of this temperature is the radiation of starlight.

     To the accuracy of measurement, it's the same temperature.  Some of us
think this may not be a coincidence.  -|Tom|-

Anton LaVey's interpretation of Satanism has always puzzled me.  I
read his "Satanic Bible" a few years ago for a social studies project,
as well as a book by Arthur Lyons called "The Cult of Devil Worship
in America."  The latter included a very interesting interview with
the Black Pope in which he did indeed say that Satan was merely an
instrument for one to realize the self.  

When I refer to Satanism, I am referring to the mishmash of rural Satanic
ritualism and witchcraft which existed before the Church of Satan.  I
don't consider LaVey's church to be at all "orthodox," nor do I consider
its followers "satanists."  LaVey combined the philosophies of Nietzsche,
Crowley, and Reich, slapped in some religious doctrine, added a little
touch of P.T. Barnum, and christened his creation the Church of Satan.
No doubt the title was a calculated attempt to attract attention...I
suppose he could have just as easily called it the Church of Free Sex.

At any rate, it worked (for a while).  In its heyday, the Church had a
huge following, including such Hollywood celebrities as Sammy Davis, Jr.
and Jayne Mansfield.  (I have a picture of LaVey with Sammy, by the 
way.)  

I find the idea of a Satanist not believing in Satan about as credible as
a Christian not believing in Christ.  But if you include the Church of
Satan, then I suppose I need to alter my definition.  Webster's Dictionary
and The American Heritage Dictionary will have to do the same.

Exactly.  Although this may be a dissapointing answer, there has to be an
interplay of the two.  Personal Ethos and Societal Morality.  A person's
self-generated/learned set of beliefs are usually expressed on a purely
mental/verbal level, and don't usually find expression in society except in an
impure (not in the sense of bad :) ) state.  Sometimes this has to be so.

Also, what if one feels oneself to be part of more than one society, in a very
real sense?  To use the obvious example, there is a political society, and a
racial society, and a gender society, and sometimes they do not always agree on
every issue...

Yes.  Perhaps with an infamous "do what you want so long as it doesn't hurt
others?"  The problem with this is that it is merely saying what you CAN do: it
is not a morality in that it doesn't propound any specifically preferred
behaviours.

I'll add a hearty "me two".  However, one could just as well say just because
certain actions are moral does not make them legal: one still doesn't really
get an impression of which one is truly "right".

: 
: or the biggest killer (IMO)
: 
:    6) one's dreams are (sadly) shattered on the hard rocks of society's
:       version of reality.  Without the dream the motivation dies, without
:       the motivation the effort seems useless.
: 

Actually there are more possibilities -- one is that with practice the
hacker has become so good and powerful in manipulating data streams
that s/he goes simply underground...

Possessing true power perhaps there is no need to impress anyone with it.

Consider special relativity.  It hasn't be proved, nor has it been
disproved.  No one has a proof one way or the other, but many people
are interested in it!
 
I've satisfied myself that nothing could indicate absolutely the
existence of God one way or the other.  The two possibilities
are supernaturalism and naturalism.  Of course no set of circumstances can
be inconsistent with supernaturalism, but similarly, no set of circumstances
can be inconsistent with naturalism.  In naturalism, any phenomenon that
could be described as God is considered part of the natural world, to
be studied as any other natural phenomenon (gravity, for instance).  
For example, if a loud ``godlike'' voice vociferously announced, ``I
am God, I exist, and I will prove it by reversing the force of gravity,''
and if then gravity did indeed reverse, a naturalist (probably a scientist)
would say, ``Boy, we sure didn't understand gravity as well as we
thought we did, and that loud voice is something new.  Perhaps we
didn't understand thunder as well as we thought we did either.''

I'm sure glad you don't know where I live, since you don't seem
to realize it is impossible for you to distinguish between voices
in your head, and God's voice.

You seem to have missed my point.  Even if Jim Jones and David Koresh
were not religious people, my point remains that faith and dogma
are dangerous, and religion encourages them.  Jim Jones and David Koresh
also encouraged them.  My point does not rely on Jim Jones and David
Koresh being religious.

It's a moot point: Step out of your door go _anywhere_ (except possibly
your mailbox). You will be "subject to some ad agency's 'poor taste'"
 
While I'm sure Sagan considers it sacrilegious, that wouldn't be
because of his doubtfull credibility as an astronomer. Modern, 
ground-based, visible light astronomy (what these proposed
orbiting billboards would upset) is already a dying field: The
opacity and distortions caused by the atmosphere itself have
driven most of the field to use radio, far infrared or space-based
telescopes. In any case, a bright point of light passing through
the field doesn't ruin observations. If that were the case, the
thousands of existing satellites would have already done so (satelliets
might not seem so bright to the eyes, but as far as astronomy is concerned,
they are extremely bright.)

  One of the main reasons nations like the US and RUSSIA observe satellite
  that have been launched is FORBs system whick loft nuclear bombs into
  orbit which are planned to be detonated in LEO causing EMP pulses
  interfering with the target command and control system.

There are several CRT-to-film writers around. Agfa has some, they also might
be called Matrix?, and I am pretty sure other companies sell the same
equipment. You might want to talk to any company in your area that does
presentation slides or offers graphics services. They should have those
machines and they might point you to a local vendor. From there on it's all
a question of money. They units are essentially high res CRTs plus a filter
wheel plus a 35mm camera and a computer hook-up.

Reiner

Sorry, I've lost track of who asked the question originally 
	(our news server at GSFC keeps things around for tremendously
	short periods of time), but wanted to be certain before I
	replied. Someone asked about displaying the compressed images
	from the Voyager imaging CD-ROMs on a Mac. As Peter Ford (MIT)
	pointed out, a decompression program is available via FTP.
	(Sorry, I don't remember the name of the node offhand, 
	although it's .mit.edu.) In any case, though, one of the MAC
	display programs (CD ROM Browser by Dana Swift) does display
	the compressed images directly. The program is shareware and
	is distributed by NSSDC for nominal reproduction costs ($9 +
	shipping, if memory serves). This does *not* cover the
	shareware price which should go to Dana for his diligent work
	and upgrades, however.

	To request current pricing information, information about
	available display software, catalogs, or data from NSSDC,
	contact our user support office at:

		Coordinated Request and User Support Office (CRUSO)
		Mail Code 633
		NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center
		Greenbelt, MD   20771
		Phone: (301) 286-6695
		Fax:   (301) 286-4952

        Batse alone isn't always used to determine position.  WHen a
particularly bright burst occurs, There are a couple of other detectors that
catch it going off.  Pioneer 10 or 11 is the one I'm getting at here.  This
puppy is far enough away, that if a bright burst happens nearby, the huge
annulus created by it will hopefully intersect the line or general circle given
by BATSE, and we can get a moderately accurate position. Say oh, 2 or 3
degrees. That is the closest anyone has ever gotten with it.  
        Actually, my advisor, another classmate of mine, and me were talking
the other day about putting just one detector on one of the Pluto satellites. 
THen we realized that the satellite alone is only carrying something like 200
pounds of eq.  Well, a BATSE detector needs lead shielding to protect it, and 1
alone weighs about 200 pounds itself.

I've had pretty good success autotracing line art with Adobe
Streamline 2.0. The key to controlling excessive points, etc. is
to take some time and do some test conversions using various
Tolerance settings.

It should be noted that belief in God is in itself no more a behavoral
imperative than lack of belief. It is religion which causes the harm,
not the belief in God.  

You just don't get it, do you?

I think the discussion is more like this...

Me: [ happily picking daisies by the side of the road ]
BC: [ dancing on the double yellow broken line ]
    "Come on out and play on the highway!"
Me: "Why?"
BC: "The highway was put here for people to be on.  We must work towards
     fulfilling its purpose."
Me: "But --"
BC: "Look, the highway has been here for several generations.  Look, I
     have a story about how it was actually created by a divine being!
     And several people actually saw Elvis bless it!"
BC: "Look, are you going to come out here, or not?"
BC: "You probably think that picking daisies is fun.  Well, you're wrong."
Me: "Where in blazes did you get this silly idea that you're supposed to
     be playing on the highway?  You'll get yourself killed!"
BC: "Better to be killed on the highway than to live an empty life off
     of it.  Besides, you're just asking pointless questions.  You know
     you really want to be playing on the highway too; you're just
     denying it."
Me: "If you want to get run over, then fine, but I'd much rather enjoy
     the daisies, if you please."
BC: "Why do you shun me like this?  The Creator of the Highway will flatten
     you with a steamroller if you don't see the light and come join me!"
Me: "Well, if he's gonna be THAT way about it, maybe I want to get as
     far from the highway as I can..."
BC: [ incoherent but quite familiar righteous sputtering ]

Brian C., don't you see?  I do not believe that your god is:

	(a) real, or even

	(b) beneficial.

In fact, I believe your religion is imaginary and, carried to
extremes, harmful.  I would like to help you see its shortcomings, and
perhaps someday finally become strong enough to see it for what it is:
an elaborate lie, kept alive by the elite priesthood to keep the
masses properly submissive to their influences.

Please offer me an argument that's more convincing than "you just
don't believe 'cos you don't want to."  Everything you've said so far
could apply equally to any religion -- why do you believe yours is the
real one?

(Note that saying "it's the only one that promises eternal life" or
something like that isn't an answer to my question, unless you show
that (a) no other religion promises eternal life and (b) it is
unarguably true that eternal life must be a reality.)

Given that what i described for the HST  seemed to be the SMT,   and given
the mass amrgins on the discovery mission  is tight enough that  spacewalking
has to be carefully constrained.....  No EDO pallets,  no spare Suits,
no extra MMU's.   

WHy not do this?

	Quick Test  Goldins philosophjy  of faster cheaper, better.

Build a real fast Space TUg,  to handle the re-boost  of the HST  using
clean Cryo fuels,  and get it ready before the  HST mission.

If NASA  could build Mercury in 13 months,  they should be able to make
an SMT in 9.   

How much would it need?

Guidance package.  Use a  Voyager spare.   

Thruster gear,  Use H2O2,  or LOX/LH.

Bus  Use a Commsat.

Grapple fixture.   Use a stripped down Canadarm.

Comms package.   SPare  X-band  omni  gear.

Special creation has not been observed in action. Bill Rawlin's
assertions that man was created in his present form do not count 
as creation. Put another way, there are an incredible amount of
species of the planet. How many species have we DIRECTLY observed
being created by a god or gods?

Some time ago (about 1 month) there was a bit of discussion
        about a universal VESA driver for > 8bit cards.  It was in
        the file uvesa32.zip.  Well i can't find it, does anyone know
        where it is (gorilla.something.something.au), and what sort
        of cards it works for ?

        Also would it be pushing my luck to ask for someone to post
        it to some appropriate group.

qpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo)

For my money the primary danger of anti-cult groups is that they are
every bit as wacky as the groups they oppose and that by and large
they have no compunctions about printing lies, half-truths and
misleading innuendos as part of their exposes.  A recent book on
cults I picked up by a "Christian" author quite simply mixed in
all non-Christian religions (except the Jews) and various New Age
groups with various fringe groups of dubious intent and legality.

Given the record of American Christianity, any group that falls
into the category of fundamentalist or born-again is automatically
into the Inquisition business.  It is an unavoidable affliction
of those who have a proprietary license on The Truth (tm).
And let's not forget that Jonestown and the Branch Davidians are
just as much a part of the Christian tradition as the Missouri Synod
Lutherans, and may in fact be the Massadas of true Christian believers.

I am far more concerned about the encroachment of overtly Christian
indoctrination into public schools than I am about yoga classes there.

For those concerned with religious freedom without a selective
inquisitiorial bent:

People for the American Way
P.O. Box 96200
Washington, DC 20077-7500

Americans United for Separation of Church & State
8120 Fenton Street
Silver Spring, MD 20910-9978

I have a group of GIF images that each contain 6 small images in 
the same place on all the images. I need a program to crop out the
small images to a new GIF file. All the programs I can find make me
use the mouse or keyboard to define the cropping coordinates. Is there
a program out there for a PC that can take the crop coordinates on
the command line?

ULTRIX/X11R4 to plot surfaces and contour plots from a set of {x,y,z}.
I would really appreciate any hint on the name of such a plotting program
and where to find it.
   Thanks for your help.

SOFTWARE 	RETAIL / SALE  Price

//////GRAPHICS///////// 		 

COREL DRAW 2.0 	300 / 	25 

ALDUS PHOTO STYLER 1.1 	800 / 	100 

IMAGE IN COLOR (2 ) 	800 / 	100 

PHOTO FINISH (3 OF THESE) 	295 /	75 

IMAGE IN SCAN & PAINT 	150 /	20 

IMAGE IN FULL PACK 	300 / 	45 

PICTURE PUBLISHER 	800 / 	100 

IMAGE PREP 	200 / 	50 

SNAP PRO 	70 /	20 

IMAGES INC. 	200 / 	50 

PUBLISHER'S PAINTBRUSH 	495 /	50 

DELUXE PAINT 2 ENCHANCE 	129 /	25 

SOFTTYPE ( FONT WORKSHOP) 	300 / 	25 

VISTA PRO  	100 / 	20 

optibase-wORKSHOP 	149 /	35 

GFA CAD 	100 / 	25 

////////UTILITIES //////////		 

X TREE GOLD FOR WIN 	99 /	25 

TNT (anti virus) 	100 / 	15 

salvation 	100 / 	15 

AMISH UTILITIES 	79 /	15 

////////MULTIMEDIA 	///////	

SMART TEXT 	200 / 	10 

MUSIC CLIPS 	149 /	25 

AUDIO TRACKS  	79 /	15 

SPINnAKER PLUS (MAC) 	495 /	35 

SPINnAKER PLUS (PC) 	495 /	35 

ASK ME 2000 	500 / 	35 

MULTI MEDIA MAKE YOUR POINT  	79 /	20 

MADISON AVE 	75 /	25 

INTERFACE (MAC) 	300 / 	10 

MR. SOUND EFFECTS 	50 /	10 

MUSIC BYTES 	50 /	10 

TEMPRA SHOW 	495 /	50 

STORYBOARD PLUS 	400 / 	50 

/////////PROGRAMMING 		/////// 

M S WINDOWS 3.1 DEV. KIT (FULL) 	500 / 	75 

WINDOWS MAKER PRO 	995 /	50 

MS C 5.1 	500 / 	10 

TOP SPEED MODULA 	300 / 	10 

///////// BUSINESS ////////	 

THE ART OF NEGOTIATING 	150 	10 

TELEMAGIC 	150 /	10 

FULL IMPACT(MAC) 	500 / 	10 

APPROACH DATABASE 400 / 50

ASCEND 	300 / 	35 

/////// GAMES 	///////	 

NFL PRO LEAGUE FOOTBALL 	49 /	15 

ECO-SAURUS 	40 /	10 

/////// hardware //////// 		

modem 2400 baud 	200 / 	50 

assorted joysticks 	35 /	9 

WIllows VGA TV  300 / 50

Amiga Trac Ball 75 / 20

////// misc. /////// 		

the wedding planner 	49 /	10 

SOFTWARE YARD SALE FRI  4/30 ,SAT. 5/1, & SUN 5/2   8:30 TO 4:00   

e-mail -- pbenson@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu

LOCATION:

436 NUNNELEY RD., PARADISE
CA 95969    

Phone 916 872-7905      

Hello,

I am interested to hear from people working in the field of visual
simulation, ie driving simulation, flight simulation etc.
Would be very pleased to see, what is going on in the field of research
and industrial development.

For those of you interested as well: There is a workshop (preferedly 
held in German), situated in Wuppertal, November 18/19 1993, specially
related to the above topic.
The title:

"Sichtsysteme - Visualisierung in der Simulationstechnik"

Complete details are available. Please contact me.

Hello,
 
I've been on the DKBtrace/PoVray mailing list out of trearn.bitnet
for some time now, but when I tried to post the other day the
listserv told me that the list doesn't exist!  So I got a global
list of groups from the listserv and - - NOTHING!  I grepped every
string I could think of.  If Frank, Ville Saari, Andre Beck, or anyone
else who's a regular on DKB-L can tell me what is going on, please do!
 
Regards,

Try ImageMagick. I cannot test it but one told me it does 24bit.
Anyway, are you SURE your Xserver supports 24bit TrueColor visuals ?
Check with xdpyinfo !

: : So in conclusion it can be shown that there is essentially no
: : logical argument which clearly differentiates a "cult" from a
: : "religion".  I challenge anyone to produce a distinction which
: : is clear and can't be easily knocked down.  

: How about this one: a religion is a cult which has stood the test
: of time.

Just like history is written by the `winners' and not the `losers.'
From what I've seen of religions, a religion is just a cult that
was so vile and corrupt it was able to exert it's doctrine using
political and military measures.  Perhaps if Koresh withstood the
onslaught for another couple of months he would have started 
attracting more converts due to his `strength,' hence becoming a
full religion and not just a cult.

Ok It is for a game that is 3d and you have listed the characteristics 
that you are looking for. I think you may have left out a few 
important parameters. 
The polygons are all convex. 
They have less than N sides. (you are drawing meshes walls doors etc.)

I believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex
polygons can be much more efficient than those that can draw
concave / self intersecting polygons. 
This efficiency can largely be attributed to the fact that 
simple convex polygons only have a left and a right edge on each scan line.
Complex (figure 8 type polygons) can be a bit trickier.

The less than N sides specification especially if it is a very small 
number like 3 or 4 allow othe optimisations to be made.

Thus for a high speed game application I think you are looking for
code that exploits and is hence limited to drawing simple convex
polygons.  

It may have been that they were very general purpose algorithms.
If you limit yourself to 3 or four sided simple convex polygons
I think you might be suprised how fast a c algorithm with a 
asm block move to fill each scan line might actually be.

In the New York Times on Sunday May 9th in the week in review
section there was a report of a group called "Space Marketing"
in Atlanta, Georgia who is planning to put up a one mile wide
reflective Earth orbiting satelite which will appear as large
and as bright as the Moon and carry some sort of advertising.
There was an editorial about this in the Times the following
Tuesday.

Are others as upset about this as I am?  I feel that a global
boycott of anyone involved with such a project would be a good
idea.  Perhaps it could be made illegal in various countries
around the world?  Do others agree?

-david

[Relevant messages found on the net:]
From: webb@tsavo.hks.com (Peter Webb)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Stopping the sky-vandals
Date: 13 May 1993 21:17:22 GMT
Organization: HKS, Inc.
Distribution: world

If you don't want to see Space Marketing put up orbiting billboards, write
them, or call them, and tell them so.  You might also write your
congresspeople.  Space Marketing can be reached at:

Attn: Mike Lawson
Public Relations Dept.
Space Marketing
1495 Atmbree Rd., Suite 600
Rosewell, GA 30076
(404)-442-9682

--
Peter Webb 					webb@hks.com
Hibbitt, Karlsson & Sorensen, Inc.		Voice: 401-727-4200
1080 Main St, Pawtucket RI 02860		FAX: 401-727-4208 

[Alternatively, you could try to find out who their clients
 will be and tell *them* how you feel.]
Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space,sci.misc,sci.environment,talk.environment
From: klaes@verga.enet.dec.com (Larry Klaes)
Subject: Light Pollution (Space Ads) Information
Keywords: light pollution, advertisements
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 20:45:36 GMT

        Dave Crawford (crawford@noao.edu), Executive Director of the 
    International Dark-Sky Association (IDA), sent me information on where 
    you can write in regards to the proposed "Billboards in the Sky" and
    asked me to post it:

        Karen Brown
        Center for the Study of Commercialism
        1875 Connecticut Avenue, Suite 300
        Washington, D.C. 20009-5728
        U.S.A.

        Telephone:  202-797-7080
        Fax:        202-265-4954

        Please note that I have no involvement whatsoever with the CSC.

        Larry Klaes  klaes@verga.enet.dec.com
		     or - ...!decwrl!verga.enet.dec.com!klaes
    		     or - klaes%verga.dec@decwrl.enet.dec.com
                     or - klaes%verga.enet.dec.com@uunet.uu.net

             "All the Universe, or nothing!" - H. G. Wells

        EJASA Editor, Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the Sky
Date: 10 May 93 21:51:11 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: algol.jsc.nasa.gov

[...]
: That's roughly akin to saying let's let Anaconda strip-mine 
: the Grand Canyon so that strip-mining can boldly go where no 
: strip mining technology has gone before .. because after all, 
: mining means profits, and profits mean technological advance-
: ment, and technogical advancement means prosperity, and pros-
: perity means happiness, and so to hell with the Grand Canyon ..

Space advertisement in LOW Earth Orbit is very short term -- on the
order of a few years before the orbit decays.  (Higher orbits last
longer.)  Advertisers will certainly be aware of the environmental
aspects of their advertising.  Fred's argument is roughly akin to
saying that it's bad to cut down trees, so we shouldn't advertise in
newspapers.  Think that through, Fred.

Picture this: Our space billboard is a LARGE inflatable structure,
filled with "bio-degradable" foam instead of gas.  It scoops up space
debris as it orbits, thus CLEANING the space environment and bringing
you The Pause That Refreshes at the same time.  Because of the large
drag coefficient, it will de-orbit -- safely burning up -- within a
year.

Embedded in the foam structure is a small re-entry vehicle, which does
not burn up during entry.  It contains the electronics and propulsion
system (which may be refurbished and re-used) as well as space science
experiments proposed and built by high school students in
advertiser-sponsored science fairs.

Advertisers buy time on the billboard, whose surface is made up of
tiny mirrors controlled by the avionics package.  The avionics can
reconfigure the mirrors to reflect different messages at different
parts of the globe.  Clever programming allows different languages
to every country.

During orbital night, the mirrors turn perpendicular to the surface,
and small lights are revealed.  The lights spell out messages for all
to see.

...execellent examples of Luther's insane rantings deleted...

Gee, I'm *sooooo* surprised that they don't teach this part of his
ideology in high schools today.

	To big for a .sig? 

	No way!

	Keith " Home of the billdboard .sig files " Ryan

	=)

---

[Note the "Followup-To" redirect(s) to alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc.]

(Timothy J Brent) said in response to P.VASILION:

(1) You have no evidence that David Koresh or his followers were
"packing" that heavy weaponry with any intent to use for other that
recreational and self-defense purposes.

(2) Your statement that "the public also has rights" is correct only is
parsed as "the individuals who comprise the public also have rights."
There is no separate rights-bearing entity known as "the public".

(3) Since the "rights of the public" of which you spoke are in fact only
rights of individuals, the statement that the rights of the public
should be placed above the rights of the individual has no meaning.

(4) You have artificially created an illusionary conflict of
individuals' rights when you speak of "my right to rape your daughter."
No person has the right to rape another person, therefore there is no
conflict.

(5) How do you define "society?"  Do you hold that this "society" is a
rights-bearing entity which is separate from any individual people?  How
do you define a "threat to society?"  To what extent do you believe that
a person loses his rights when he is declared (by whom?) to be such a
threat?

It is for a business and the end product has to be a photograph.
I take damaged black and whites, usually old, some very, and repair them
by hand at present.  I would like to do this by using a computer.
I am just trying to find a vendor who can convert my computer stored
images to negatives or thermal print.  The customer will want his/her
copy as much as possible like a brand new original photgraph.

-- David

I am trying to find out anything I can about available documentation
for IGES and e00(Arc/Info) formats.  If you know anything about these
formats (or just one) PLEASE send me a note.  I don't read this group,
so please send responses to:

mike@prc.utexas.edu

Thank You

   We don't disagree on this.  All I said was that a right is whatever
you or somebody acting for you can enforce.  The Bill of Rights didn't
come into effect until it was ratified by the states (and indirectly,
the people); from that point it defined legal rights.  "Common law"
rights are vague and situational; that's why the people insisted on a
Bill of Rights in the Constitution, spelling out exactly what they
demanded from the government.  Legitimate or illegitimate, power is
power.  That's why the federal government can force states to grant
their citizens rights they don't wish to: In a slugging match, the feds
win.  Period.

   And you're right, this doesn't belong in sci.space.  I've said my
peace.  No more frome me on rights (at least not here).

[ stuff deleted ]

The French SPOT is an example that comes to mind.  Although the
company (name escapes me at the moment) sells images world-wide, you
can bet your last dollar (franc??) that the French gov't gets first
dibs.

I remember a few years ago (about the time SPOT was launched), I
was speaking to my Dad (an USAF officer) about this and that, and I
happend to mention SPOT (I think we were talking about technology
utilization).  He just about went ballistic.  He wanted to know how I
knew about SPOT and just what I knew.  I guess that space surveillance
is such a sensitive topic in the Air Force that he couldn't believe
that I would read about such a system in the popular press (ie. AV week).

mark, 

Yesterday, I went to the Boeing shareholders meeting.  It was a bit shorter
than I expected.  Last year (when the stock was first down), they made a big
presentation on the 777, and other programs.  This year, it was much more
bare-bones.

In any case, I wanted to ask a question that the board of directors would
hear, and so I got there early, and figured that If I didn't get to the mike,
maybe they would read mine off of a card, and so I wrote it down, and handed it
in.

After the meeting started, Mr. Shrontz said that he would only answer written
questions, in order to be fair to the people in the overflow room that only
had monitors downstairs.  Naturally, I was crushed.

So, when question and answer time came, I was suprised to find my question
being read and answered.  Admittedly near the end of the ones that he took.
Presumably getting there early, and getting the question in early made all
the difference.

So, on to the substance. The question was 

Is Boeing looking at anything BEYOND the high speed Civil Transport, such
as a commercial space launch system, and if not, how will Boeing compete
with the reusable single stage to orbit technology presently being developed
by Mcdonnell Douglass?

Well, he read it without a hitch, and without editing, with impressed me,
then he answered it very quickly treating it as a two part question, last
part first.

This is to the best of my recollection what he said.

As far as single stage to orbit technology, we think that we have a better
answer in a two stage approach, and we are talking to some of our customers 
about that.  As far as commercialization, that is a long ways off.  The High
speed Civil Transport is about as far out as our commercial planning goes at
this point.

So, this tells me that Boeing still considers space to be a non-commercial
arena, and for the most part this is true, however it also tells me that 
they consider there to be enough money in building space launchers for them
to persue work on their own.

Now, I do have a friend on the spacelifter program at boeing.  Actually,
this is a mis-nomer, as there is no spacelifter contract for the work that this
guy is doing, however, he is doing work in preparation of a proposal for space
lifter contracts.  He won't tell me what he is doing, but maybe this is where
the TSTO action is taking place at boeing.  At the very minimum, the chairman
of the board of boeing said that they have an approach in mind, and they are
trying to do something with it.  

Anybody know anything further?
Is this really news?
Does this threaten further work on DC-? ?

Kaveh,

all of the data included with in the Cyberware_demo is
non-proprietary, use it as you like. I just ask that you give us
credit if you use it in a research paper/project and send us the
results.

thanks,

geo
Cyberware
-- 

I'm sure all the religious types would get in a snit due
to Asimov's atheism.

Do we have any atheists on stamps now?

I disagree.  In the end, the *individual* is responsible for his/her own
irrationality.  The individual's belief in some dogmatic religion is a 
symptom of that irrationality.

Atheists and agnostics, I would imagine, but yes, that was my point.  An
atheist would theoretically be just as ill-equipped to study the philosophy
of religion as a Christian, and yet there is a persistence of atheists
among the ranks of philosophers.  Therefore, the conflict between one's
religious beliefs (or lack thereof) and the ability to be a philosopher
must not be as great as you assert.  The fact that most philosophers may
be non-religious was a secondary point.

As opposed to science practiced by theists?  Be careful here.

Science does have a built-in defence against faith and dogma:
skepticism.  Unfortunately, it is not foolproof.  There is that 
wonderful little creature known as the "theory."  Many of us believe in
the theory of evolution.  We have no absolute proof that this 
theory is true, so why do we believe it?  Because it "makes more 
sense than...?"  There is quite a bit of faith involved here.

Well, not ALL current beliefs are deficient, but basically I agree.

Ideally, this is true.  In reality, though, you have to acknowledge
that scientists are human.  Scientists have egos and biases.  Some
scientists assume a particular theory is true, refuse to admit the
flaws in that theory because of ego problems or whatever, and proceed
to spend their time and money trying to come up with absolute proof 
for the theory.  Remember cold fusion?

Not really.  I agree that we spent far too much money on the Waco
crisis ($7,500,000 I believe), especially considering the outcome.
My point was that mass suicides in the U.S. are rare (Jonestown was
in Guyana, incidentally, although we footed the bill for the clean-up),
and the U.S. has far more important issues to address.  Compare the
number of U.S. citizens who have died in mass suicides with, say, the
number of U.S. soldiers who died during one week of the Vietnam War and
you will see my point.

What's the best way to archive GIF's?  I zip them and they only shrink 1%.  I
have most compression programs except stacker which I heard was good for GIF's.

Thanx
-Brando

  Sorry, gotta disagree with you on this one Maddi (not the
  resemblence to Bill.  The nickname).

  I prefer "Half" Bake'd Timmons

Does any one know of a decent quality library of routines for
performing 3D graphics modelling on the PC?

Ideally the routines would be embeded in our application program.

Requirements (wish list):
- flat surface modelling (simple phong shading optional)
- ability to plot hidden-line drawings
- Texture mapping -- both procedural and bit map
- modeling light sources (local, distant, and spot lights)
- Ray-tracing
- Radiosity (optional)

Any comments would be appreciated.

John Chinnick -- jchinnic@mach1.wlu.ca
phone : (519) 888-9666

I didn't want to quote all the stuff that's been said recently, I
just wanted to add a point.

   The whole question of "a right to a dark sky" revolves around the
definition of a right.  Moral rights and natural rights are all well and
good, but as far as I can see, a right is whatever you or someone
representing you can enforce.  In most civilizations, the government or
the church (or both) defines what the rights of the citizens are, and
then enforces those rights for them.  Here in the U.S., the constitution
provides a "Bill of Rights" from which most if not all legal rights are
considered to derive.  I'm sure that most other countries have
comparable documents.  If you can persuade a court that you have a right
to a dark sky derived in some manner from the Bill of Rights (in the
U.S.), you can prevent (maybe) these billboards from being launched.  To
keep anyone in the world from launching then gets into international law
and the International Court of Justice (correct name?) in the Hague,
something I know little about.

[reply to timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons]
 
Which newsgroup have you been reading?  The few anti-Christian posts are
virtually all in response to some Christian posting some "YOU WILL ALL
BURN IN HELL" kind of drivel.
 
Bake, it is transparently obvious that you are a theist pretending to be
an atheist.  You probably think you are very clever, but we see this all
the time.
 
But of course *you* have dismissed them because you are an atheist,
right?
 
In other words, you *didn't* read the FAQ after all.

Oops, what the hell a crosspost is this ?!

Have a look onto XV-3.00 before saying anything more about it's power.

Could somebody please _email_ me some info on either what gif or iff
file formats are, or where I can get such info?

thanx

Back in January and February there were several articles (Wash Post, Time...)
saying that NASA was "considering" the option just as it is now "considering"
a followup mission 6-12 months after the servicing mission.  However, the
down time was estimated to be a year+ (servicing, checkout, sceheduling
and training another shuttle, orbit verification...) and to be quite
expensive.  I think it may have been more a mental exercise than a
real plan.  Don't know.
 
Robert Dempsey                                 (410) 338-1334
STScI/PODPS                                                                   

"He which hath no stomach for this fight, Let him depart; his passport
shall be made, and crowns for convoy put into his purse: We would not die
in this man's company that fears his fellowship to die with us." -Shakespeare

I have a question about recursive, backward raytracing.

When an incident ray (I) strikes an object at point P, first
the normal (N) is calculated. Light rays are calculated (L1 to Ln 
where n is the number of light sources) - these being the light
rays that do not intersect with anything. The reflected ray (R) and
the transmitted ray (T) is calculated from the formulae.

Calling the routine recursively on R and T will return the colours 
along the rays (R and T) as rCol and tCol. Each object has its own
colour oCol and each light source has liCol (1 <= i <= n).

The question is: 
  How do you combine rCol, tCol, oCol and all the liCol's to get
  the correct resulting colour to return along the I ray?

All colours are defined as strucures (records) having r, g, b components
between 0 and 1.

If anyone has done this before could you give me a few hints?

--
Adrian Secchia

Then we all live happily ever after. :-)

Seriously, if we all agreed on the circumstances we're in, I suspect we'd all
agree on the best course of action.  Unfortunately, I have no confidence that
such a situation will ever arise. 

Some of us think there's a big God in the sky, some don't.  Some think
they've been chosen by God, others disagree.  Some think they are infallible,
others think otherwise.  Until those disagreements over circumstances can be
ironed out, there's little hope of everyone agreeing.

Yes.  I think that, for example, only a vanishingly small number of people
would hold that there's a frame of reference in which gassing six million
Jews is good.  So that's probably about as close to an objective moral value
as I've encountered in my life so far.

Well, I think your example's poor.  If the bomb's in Iraq, for example, and
was dropped by an American plane, many people would hold that it was a moral
act.

Hmm.  So these moral values have a perceptible physical presence?

Right, and the chain ends right there.  The buck stops with me.  It's not an
infinite regress.

Right.  The key point, however, is that there are vanishingly few of these
moral issues where we can get 99.9% of people to agree on the outcome for all
frames of reference (and agree on the frames of reference...)

I can't manage either.  Killing Hitler using a car bomb would have been a
terrorist act, but I have to admit that I couldn't exactly condemn it. 
Although there are tricky philosophical issues to do with hindsight...

I think that circumstances have already arisen where terrorism would have
been better than peace.  Better in terms of numbers of innocent people
killed.  Assuming it was successful terrorism, of course.

	Have you checked Foley's book? The solutions are in chapter 13.

Dear gentlemen!

The firm called "INTERBUSINESS,LTD" offers quite inexpensive
method to determine ore & oil locations all over the world.
In this method used data got from space satellites. Being
in your office and using theese data you can get a good statis-
tical prognosis of locations mentioned above.

        This prognosis could be done for any part of the world!
If you're interested in details please send E-mail:

        svn@aoibs.msk.su

hausner@qucis.queensu.ca (Alejo Hausner) Pontificated: 
To split a split hair, I believe that teflon (-CF4- monomer) was
"discovered" by accident when someone I don't remember
found what he thought was a liquid (or gas?) had turned to a
solid...

It just happend to fit the bill for the above use...

I'm crossposting to sci.materials so perhaps someone in the know
might elaborate...

A world creator god does, the moment it creates the world. And to sayi
that you can't recall *anyone* is even below your usual standard of
a"arguing".
 
My argument is based on quite usual theistic assumptions, namely god
is perfect, god is all-knowing god sets the rules. The rules don't
work for whatever reason. Because of its omniscience, the god has
known it. In advance.
 
It is not a question of grammar, it is a question of modelling. Has been
discussed in the wonderful time when you were not posting to this group.
When A is contradictorily defined A does not point to an instance in
reality. Unless there is more information in the definition of A that
allows me to find it somehow. However, when the contradictory attribute
is said to be essential, ie has not got that attribute => not the A I
am looking for, I can conclude that A does not exist.
 
That's quite like: I predict coins falling
   Predicted            Happened
1.   Heads                 Tails
2.   Tails                 Tails
3.   Heads                 Tails
4.   Heads                 Tails
 
I take 2. and dismiss the rest because of the unnecessary complexity
the other evidence causes.
 
T H E  G R A P H I C S  B B S

                                      #      #
                                      #
           ###   # ###  ###   ####   ####   ##    ####   ####
          #   #  ##        #  #   #  #   #   #   #      #
          #   #  #      ####  #   #  #   #   #   #       ###
           ####  #     #   #  ####   #   #   #   #          #
              #  #      ####  #      #   #  ###   ####  ####
           ###                #
                                                            .rent.com

         "It's better than a sharp stick in the eye!" - Andy Meyer

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: ==============================================================================
: Could someone please tell me the Best FTP'able viewer available for MSDOS
: I am running a 486 33mhz with SVGA monitor.
: I need to look at gifs mainly and it would be advantageous if it ran
: under windows...........thanks

FTP to wuarchive.wustl.edu,
change into mirrors/msdos/graphics
get "grfwk61t.zip"
This is the DOS version of Graphic Workshop.  There is a Windows version which
you could probably find in the mirrors/msdos/windows3 directory but I don't 
know what the file name is. 

-- 

.. 

One thing to recall.  Putting a satellite as high as possible is one thing. 
Coming back to not only that altitude, but matching the position of it in 
its orbit on a subsequent mission is another thing.  Any misalignment of the 
plane of the orbit during launch or being ahead or behind the target will 
require more fuel to adjust.  This was considered in the original deployment. 

I agree though that the demands on the crew and complexity are stupendous.  
One has to admire how much they are trying to do. 

  >> Finally: this isn't the Bronze Age, [..]
  >> please try to remember that there are more human activities than
  >> those practiced by the Warrior Caste, the Farming Caste, and the
  >> Priesthood.

F Baube responds;
   Right, the Profiting Caste is blessed by God, and may

  Steinn Sez;
  >The Priesthood has never quite forgiven
  >the merchants (aka Profiting Caste [sic])
  >for their rise to power, has it?

If we are looking for evidence of belessed-by-God-ness, I'd say the ability
to blare lights all over the evening sky is about the best evidence you
could ever hope to get.  No wonder the preistly classes are upset :-)

-Tommy Mac

This is not correct.  The event horizon is not the "center" of the black
hole but merely the distance at which the escape velocity is equal to the
speed of light.  That is, the event horizon is a finite radius...

 >By the way, news.announce.newusers has an article (can't remember which
 >one) that recommends reading a newsgroup for 1 month before posting.  
 >This makes sense because you get an idea who the players are and what 
 >the current discussions are about.

 >Am I the only one who followed that advice?

No, I spent a month just reading, too, mainly because I did not know
much about the way atheists think. I even printed out the FAQs and
discussed it with a friend before I started posting.

Alt.atheism deals with religious issues (more appropriately, lack of
religious beliefs), which are by their very nature very controversial.
It makes sense to read what is being discussed and how just to make
sure you are not repeating something others have said better.

Petri

	The first and only thing I've ever tried to auto-trace was a piece
of a USCG nautical chart using Adobe Illustrator 3.2.  I wanted to get the
outline of the coast for Western Long Island Sound.  I was simultaneously
suprised at how good a job it did and disappointed at how poorly it did.  I
suspect what I gave it was a very difficult thing; not only is the coastline
very irregular, but overlaid on the chart are numerous sets of gridlines
(not only lattitude and longitude, but loran grids as well).  The most
common mistake it make was whenever the coastline was roughly parallel and
tangent to a grid line, it would take off following the gridline instead of
the coast.  I think the best improvement would be some sort of interactive
algorithm that would let you step in and say "no, dummy, you're going the
wrong way".

	Steve Reisberg, a friend of mine a few years back(*), did his
doctoral work analysing electron micrographs of filimentous phage (virii).
A good chunk of the work was writing a program to take a digitized
micrograph and automatically trace the centerline of the virus particles.
This is essentially the same problem that Illustrator tries to solve with
its auto-trace tool.

	In some respects the problem Steve worked on was harder, since he
was trying to do quantitative analysis of the virus structure and finding a
good centerline was only the first step, but a step on which all future
analysis depended.  However, in other respects, it was an easier problem
since the program could be written with a lot of knowledge about what the
virus particles were supposed to look like, and the analysis could be
restricted to those particles which happend to be relatively straight,
clean, and well imaged; you don't always have that freedom auto-tracing real
life images.  In any case, it gave me some insight into just how difficult
this problem is to solve in the general case.

	(*) Steve is no longer with us.  He and his wife disappeared while
on vacation in Hawaii a couple of years after they graduated.  Their last
known location was hiking in a densely wooded in a mountainous area.  While no
bodies were ever found, they are presumed to have been the victim of some
sort of fall or accident in the woods.

The main effect of the spherical aberration problems with the
primary mirror was to drive the computer engineers to develop the image
processing software that much faster. When they use the _same_ deconvolution 
software on the images from the fixed Hubble, be ready for some 
incredible results!  There is every reason to believe that the results will 
_exceed_ the original specs by a fair margin.  

Adaptive optics is a combination of hardware and software.  It works 
realtime, not after the fact, as is the case with Hubble.  You might be
interested to know this technology has made it to the amateur market, in
the form of the AO-2 Adaptive Optics System.  Starting on page 52 of the 
April, 1993 Sky & Telescope is a three page review of this new product.
It lists for $1,290.  The article states: "The AO-2 Adaptive Optics System 
comes in a handy soft-plastic case that a three-year-old could carry 
around."  Even though this device is really only good for the brightest
objects, "it could cope with image movements of up to 0.8 millimeter
in the telescope's focal plane."  Now just imagine how well this infant 
technology will do in a few years, especially in a dedicated system that 
has hundreds of thousands of dollars, and many man-hours invested in its
development.

Hi,

I'm looking for RGB (cube) --> HLS (double hexcone) --> HSV (cylinder) 
conversion routines. I have RGB <--> HSV, but miss the HLS <--> RGB/HSV.

PLEASE E-MAIL ME DIRECTLY, AS I DO NOT GET THIS NEWSGROUP AT MY SITE

Any and all help wil be greatly appreciated.
Gert.

--

Are you serious?!!!  Here's an exercise next time you are in the barnyard. 
Take *your* model and hold it directly above a fresh cowpie.  Then release the
model.  You will observe that on its own *your* model will assume a trajectory
earthward and come to rest exactly where it belongs.  Watch out for splatters,
particularly if you are wearing shorts when you perform this experiment.

Question for those of you who seem to be fundamentalists (Stephen
Tice, the Cotera, Joe Gaut, et al)(apologies if I've mislabelled any
of you, I've only started reading t.r.m since the BD disaster.  But I
know the Cotera is a fundy) and are defending Koresh and his beliefs
as an example of True Christianity under persecution from the the Big
Bad Secular State: what is your opinion of his reported sexual habits?
If the reports are accurate, what IYO does this say about the quality of
his Christianity?  Or are the allegations just part of the Big
Cover-Up?

(I remain deliberately neutral on the cause of the fire: I wouldn't
put it past Koresh to have torched the place himself.  On the other
hand, if the propane-tank-accident story is correct, I wouldn't put it
past the FBI to try to cover its ass by claiming Koresh did it.  I
hope your government does a VERY thorough investigation of the whole
debacle, and I'll be disappointed if a few heads don't roll.  The
authorities seem to have botched the original raid, and in the matter
of the fire, are guilty of either serious misjudgement, or reckless
endangerment.)

A young French skeptic, who reads (skeptically) the UFO review OVNI
Presence (O.P.), sent me the following excerpt from an August 92
issue of this review (R.G. = Robert Galley, French minister of
defense in 1974, answering about the Belgian UFO wave):

"O.P. : Can you conceive that the U.S. could allow themselves to send
 their most modern crafts over foreign territory, with the Belgian
 hierarchy ignoring that ?"
"R.G. : Absolutely ! The best proof which I can give is that, some time
 ago, without informing the French authorities, the U.S. based in
 Germany sent a plane to make photos of Pierrelatte (*). We followed
 this plane, and, after its landing on the Ramstein airport, Colonel X
 got back the shots of Pierrelatte. The U.S. had not informed us..."
(*) There is an important military plant of enrichment of uranium at
Pierrelatte (Drome).

What kind of plane could it be ? Surely not an SR-71, which our planes
could not follow (and still can't)...

On a similar note, a good friend of mine worked as a clerk in a
chain bookstore.  Several of his peers were amazing, one woman in
particular:

A customer asked her if they had _The Autobiography of Benjamin
Franklin_.  "Who's it by?" was her first question.  Then, "Is he
still alive?"  Then, "Is it fiction or non-fiction?" 

Finally my friend intervened, and showed the guy where it was.
 
It makes one wonder what the standards of employment are.

Sorry if this is late for the thread, but...

I thought God was supposed to be constant and never-changing.  How do
you reconcile this common Christian view with the paragraph above?

Also, while we're at it:

1. How do you reconcile "A KIND and LOVING God!!" with the
Judeo-Christian view that sin was at one time "immediately punishable
by death"?  Was killing people for sinning God's way of showing
KINDness and LOVE?

2. Is the fact the He no longer does this an admission on His part of
having made a mistake?

3. Now that we are "living in the age of grace", does this mean that
for our sins, God now damns us to eternal hell after we die, rather
than killing us immediately?  If so, is this eternal damnation an
example of "A KIND and LOVING God!!"?

  just a point, i suppose, if open mind means believing anything can be true
or we can't for sure know what is definitely true, i'm happy to not be open
minded.  if, however, open mindedness means being respectful and tolerant
towards other beliefs, respecting the rights and intelligence and wisdom
of people of other beliefs and giving equal time to alternative ideas, i
try my very best to be open minded.  just a thot in passing.... :)

  not being married, i cannot say too much to you, but from my perspective
having mutually exclusive faiths would be a big enough roadblock for me in
considering marrying someone.  making it much bigger than it is?  i suppose
that depends on how serious each of you is in your beliefs.  lukewarm atheists
and christians for whom religion is of nominal importance probly would feel
the issue isn't very big.  i suppose the more important your beliefs are to
each of you, the more important the issue is.

Nah... I figure most people would be so busy reading that they wouldn't
have *time* to post. :-) :-) :-)

							spl

I'm looking for code that will generate a minimum-volume oriented
bounding box for an arbitrary polyhedron.  Anyone know of such code?

       Why?  I'm converting objects from
one modelling system into another, and the destination system is object
oriented.  So I want to represent each object in its own coordinate system,
that of its bounding box, with the objects then translated and rotated
appropriately, this being the representation used in the destination
system.

But neither of them claimed to have experimental evidence that proved 
them right. In a similar vein, there is as yet no experimental evidence
for supersymmetric particles; so some physicists believe in them, and
some don't -- but all agree that either there is an objectively true
answer to the question.

--

amen.. I too have learned by example, specifically yours. :)

.. but dorsai leads the way.. Unlike other services that are commercial
in nature, dorsai is a community based service. While others charge
monthly fees for access, dorsai accepts donations from those who can
afford to contribute.

   While other systems don't respond to user input, dorsai thrives on it.
Other systems sell hardware for a profit, dorsai donates hardware to
community service groups, and to individuals who couldn't afford to
normally.

   Dorsai lives due to the "hacker" ethic of Charles, Jack, Skip, Cara,
Ira, Mark, David etc etc etc..  sleepless nights and days working on
equipment thats been assembled at the embassy, ( and modifying what
ever else available to work the first time..) in order to keep the
slip line up...

   Heres to you bud... I'm one of the few that decided to
stay, and am damn glad that I did..... :)

Jim and Andy both have it incorrect I believe:

The *facts* are what is there, the processes that exist in the
present or the physical evidence of the processes having occured
in the past. These *facts* exist with or without a theory.

The *theory* tries and explains the *facts* and how they relate
to the rest of the physical universe in a manner that is both
coherent and useful, that it can be used to make predictions.

The *facts* of gravity, evolution, electromagnetic radiation,
relativity, atoms will exist and behave in the way in which they
behave regardless of whether we have a theory to try and explain
how they interact... or even why.

A theory never really becomes a fact... but a theory can predict
the existence of a previously unknown fact, and if we find this
fact as the theory predicted we say the *theory* is *supported*
by the *facts*. A theory is a mental construct, a speculation, 
a model.  If it is a good model, it may be useful.

In science a theory is something that is supported by the 
evidence, considerable evidence, sometimes *all* of the evidence.
A *hypothesis* is a new fledgling theory because there is not
yet enough evidence to support it.  When a new hypothesis 
is proposed to replace an existing theory, it must explain
*all* of the facts that the current theory explains and at least
some of the facts that the current theory could not and/or
predict new facts.

It is so simple.... I'm surprised that this subject gets
beat to death about once a month. A quick glance in a dictionary
would clear up 99% of the confusion and bandwidth in this
newsgroup.  Then we could talk about really important things
like, why do men have nipples?

-David Utidjian-
utidjian@remarque.berkeley.edu

The point about its being real or not is that one does not waste time with
what reality might be when one wants predictions. The questions if the
atoms are there or if something else is there making measurements indicate
atoms is not necessary in such a system.
 
And one does not have to write a new theory of existence everytime new
models are used in Physics.

	Did I not hear that there maybe some ports of Real3D Version2
   	in the pipeline somewhere, Possibly Unix. Not too sure though
        please put me straight.

1) Well, Mr Koresh allowed other children and adults to leave the compound
during the course of the siege; why didnt these children leave then?
I dont know myself, and certainly havent heard any answers on this here.

2) Yes, one simple non-action, ie NOT attacking the compound with
modified tanks, would have prevented this tragedy. I bet you blamed
the MOVE people for the deaths that occurred in adjacent row
houses in Philadelphia, not the government which dropped the
firebomb, right?

You can use PBM's 'rawtopgm' to convert three raw (r, g, b) files to pgm format. Then you can use pgm3toppm to convert the pgm files to a composite ppm file,
and feed this to cjpeg for compression. Slow, and circuitous, but it will
work.

I looked back at this, and asked some questions of various people and
got the following information which I had claimed and you pooh-poohed.
The US has not sold Iraq any arms.  Their navy is entirely made of
F-USSR vessels.  Their airforce (not including stuff captured from Kuwait
which I am not as sure about), doesn't include any US equipment.  Their
missiles are all non-US.  Their tanks are almost all soviet, with about
100 French tanks (older ones). The only US stuff in the Iraqi arsenal
is a few M113s.  Those were not sold to Iraq.  Iraq captured them from
other countries (like Kuwait).  Information is hard to prove.  You are
claiming that the US sold information?  Prove it. 

Now, how did the US build up Iraq again?  I just gave some fairly
conclusive evidence that the US didn't sell arms to Iraq.  Information
is hard to prove, almost certainly if the US did sell information, then that
fact is classified, and you can't prove it.  If you can provide some
useful evidence that the US sold arms or valuable intelligence to Iraq,
I am very interested, but not if you just make claims based on what
"everyone knows".

What I'd like to see is the more generic N-dimensional widget set.
I realize, that there wouldn't be a whole shitload of people
who'd want more than 3, but why stop?

All I need is a Widget with up to N viewports showing me different
3-D or 2-D slices of my stuff.

alter,
pat

# >Coca Cola company will want to paint the moon red and white.  (Well,
# >if not this moon, then a moon of Jupiter)...

This reminds me of the old Arthur C. Clarke story about the Coca Cola
ad stashed inside an experiment.

Here's a suggestion for the logical argument FAQ.  I don't think it's covered,
though the fallacy probably has a better name than the one I used:  How about
it, mathew?

INCONSISTENCY AND COUNTEREXAMPLE

This occurs when one party points out that some source of information takes
stand A, which is inconsistent with B.  There are two variations in which B is
either a mutually-agreed-on premise or else a stand elsewhere from the same
source.  The second party fallaciously responds by saying "see, the source
really does say B, it's right here!"; this reply does not refute the allegation
of inconsistency because it does not show that the source _only_ says B.

Example of the first type: "The Koran says unbelievers should be treated in
these ways.  We can both agree these are immoral."  "The Koran clearly says in
this other passage that unbelievers are not to be treated that way."

Example of the second type: "There are two Biblical creation stories."  "You're
wrong, since the Bible clearly describes the creation as [description]."
--

Diplomatic :-)

I realize I'm fighting Occam's razor in this argument, so I'll try to
explain why I feel a mind is necessary. 

Firstly, I'm not impressed with the ability of algorithms. They're
great at solving problems once the method has been worked out, but not
at working out the method itself.

As a specific example, I like to solve numerical crosswords (not the
simple do-the-sums-and-insert-the-answers type, the hard ones.) To do
these with any efficiency, you need to figure out a variety of tricks.
Now, I know that you can program a computer to do these puzzles, but
in doing so you have to work out the tricks _yourself_, and program
them into the computer. You can, of course, 'obfuscate' the trick, and
write the program so that it is uncovered, but as far as I can see,
the trick still has to be there in some form to be discovered. Does
this mean that all the ideas we will ever have are already
pre-programmed into our brains? This is somewhat unlikely, given that
our brains ultimately are encoded in 46 chromosomes worth of genetic
material, much of which isn't used.

One way around this is to bring the environment into the equation, but
(again, as far as I can see) this still has an air of 'if you see
object X, then perform action Y,' and we don't seem to get anywhere.
The algorithm has to anticipate what it might see, and what
conclusions to draw from it's experience.

The other problem with algorithms is their instability. Not many
algorithms survive if you take out a large portion of their code, yet
people survive strokes without going completely haywire (there are
side-effects, but patients still seem remarkably stable.) Also,
neurons in perfectly healthy people are dying at an alarming rate -
can an algorithm survive if I randomly corrupt various bits of it's
code?

The next problem is the sticky question of "What is colour?" (replace
'colour' with the sensation of your choice.) Presumably, the
materialist viewpoint is that it's the product of some kind of
chemical reaction. The usual products of such a reaction are energy +
different chemicals. Is colour a mixture of these? If this is so, a
computer won't see colour, because the chemistry is different. Does an
algorithm that sees colour have a selective advantage over an
equivalent that doesn't? It shouldn't, because the outputs of each
algorithm ought to be the same in equivalent circumstances. So why do
we see colour?

A bit of idle speculation...

If I remember correctly, quantum mechanics consists of a wavefunction,
with two processes acting on it. The first process has been called
'Unitary Evolution' (or 'U'), is governed by Schroedinger's equation
and is well known. The second process, called various things such as
'collapse of the wavefunction' or 'state vector reduction' (or 'R'),
and is more mysterious. It is usually said to occur when a
'measurement' takes place, although nobody seems to know precisely
when that occurs. When it does occur, the effect of R is to abruptly
change the wavefunction.

I envisage R as an interaction between the wavefunction and 'something
else,' which I shall imaginitively call 'part X.' It seems reasonable
to assume that _something_ causes R, although that something might be
the wavefunction itself (in which case, part X is simply the
wavefunction. Note, though, that we'd need more than U to explain R.)

Anyway, I'm speculating that minds would be in part X. There seems to
be some link between consciousness and R, in that we never see linear
superpositions of anything, although there are alternative
explainations for this. I've no idea how a brain is supposed to access
part X, but since this is only speculation, that won't matter too
much :-) My main point is that there might be a place for minds in
physics.

I'll go back to my nice padded cell now, if that's OK with you :-)

-- 

Or a religion is a cult that got co-opted by people who are better at
compartmentalizing their irrationality.

Peter

Hello,

	Does anyone know of an image format conversion tool that will convert a 
raw (8 bit grey scale) image to Gif or Tif format.  It would be great if the tool
ran on a PC, was a Windows application, and supported other formats, but I'll be 
happy with anything that works.

		Attn: Code L10MP   Robert LaFollette 
		Dahlgren Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center
		Dahlgren, VA 22448-5000

I need help in creating my 4x4 perspective matrix.  I'd like to use this for
transforming x, y, z, w in some texture mapping code I got from Graphics Gems
I.  I have many books which talk about this, but none of them in simple plain
english.  If you have Graphics Gems I, I'm talking about page 678.

I'd like to have a perspective matrix that handles different field-of-views
and aspect of course.  Thank's for your help.

-- 
Yes, of course everything I say is my personal opinion!

Of course,  they then  turn up the REverb, the Gain,  add in the analog
delay line  and the Fuzz box.  I'd think they wouldn't notice the
distortion.   Oh I forgot the phase shifters.

Ah,  but how do they compare to Mechanical systems :-)

[ deleted ]
[ deleted ]

  Evolution is both fact and theory.  The THEORY of evolution represents the
scientific attempt to explain the FACT of evolution.  The theory of evolution
does not provide facts; it explains facts.  It can be safely assumed that ALL
scientific theories neither provide nor become facts but rather EXPLAIN facts.
I recommend that you do some appropriate reading in general science.  A good
starting point with regard to evolution for the layman would be "Evolution as
Fact and Theory" in "Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes" [pp 253-262] by Stephen Jay
Gould.  There is a great deal of other useful information in this publication.

Hello
	I have posted to this newsgroup once before and recieved a
moderately helpful response on a couple of issues. This I appreciated very
much . I would however like to know why it is that ther is simply NO 
information out there on some subjects for the relativly novice graphics
programmer. The subjects are

	1) How do you access the extra video memory on a video board. I
know somwhere there aresome standard video bios calls that allow you to
dothis. I have 1meg of memory on my board and according to all the books
and info I have read I am only (at maximum) using 256k of it. There is a
way to do this in standard VGA cause I have seen vidoe paging (written in
assembly, which I don't know) written into apps hat use mode 13h. To get
any speed at all you have to do this. How do I do it?

	2) The vesa standard. What gives here. I have read most of what
the net has to offer on VESA and as far as coding for VESA goes most of
the advice is cryptic at best. Where do I get public domain info that will
tell me in "mostly plain" english how the vesa calls work.

	My biggest gripe is about number 1. I have bought graphics books,
I have asked graphics professors, I have hunted the net through both
gopher, and archie, I ahave asked apps programmers and it is like there is
some lock on this information. Graphics programming books tell alot of
programmiing algorithm information, but they always fall short of telling
you how to really control the video bios. What are all the calls folks, I
know there are people out there that know how to doall tis stuff. Where
are you, and why haven't you written a book yet? 

Please help

The other week I saw a TV program about the american space industry and NASA.
It said that in the 60's they developed a rocket that used ions or nuclear
particles for propolsion.
The government however, didn't give them $1billion for the developement
of a full scale rocket.
Did anybody see this program?
If not, has anybody heard of the particle propolsion system?

Thanx. 8-)

: But how do we know that you're representing the REAL Christians?
: ;-)

: Bill, you're an asshole.  Get lost.

Maddi,

I see that you still can't grasp the obvious, is it because your are devious
by nature, or can you only find fault with an argument by
misrepresenting it?

I plainly said that I was stating the Christian position as I
understand it, I did not say whether I agree with it since my point
was that the only flaws in that position are those atheists invent.
I have never claimed to be an expert on anything and especially
Christianity, but I have made it an object of pretty intense study
over the years, so I feel qualified to discuss what its general
propositions are.

What offends you is that I have exposed the distortions and
misrepresentations of Christianity you contrive and then rail against,
(which seems more like the classical strawman dodge than what I said)
This leaves you with nothing but to attack but me. As usual, you
avoid the larger issues by picking away at the insignificant stuff, why not
find one particular thing in my post that we can discuss, or can you
even tell me what the issues are?

I'd guess this was a garbled report of the NERVA effort to develop a
solid-core fission rocket (the most mundane type of nuclear rocket).
That was the only advanced-propulsion project that was done on a large
enough scale to be likely to attract news attention.  It *could* be any
number of things -- the description given is awfully vague -- but I'd
put a small bet on NERVA.

[Deleted for space; basically complaints that xv is an 8 bit program and that
making several modifications to the RGB sliders is slow because of screen updates.]

In reverse order:

1) Try clicking in the auto-apply box to switch it off. Then make your mods. Then
click on apply. There is no problem as stated; it has already been solved if you
look carefully.

2) Yes XV is an 8 bit program. This is not a bug. You can edit individual pallette
entries or do global colour changes; crop, scale etc. Clearly the program must
save out the *altered* image else all your work would be thrown away. So yes it
saves out 8 bit images - of course!

XV can import 24 bit images and quantises them down to 8 bits. This is a handy
facility, not a bug.

How would you suggest doing colour editing on a 24 bit file? How would you group
'related' colours to edit them together? Only global changes could be done
unless the software were very different and much more complicated.

If you want to do colour editing on a 24 bit image, you need much more powerfull
software - which is readily available commercially.

And lastly, JPEG is a compression algorithm. It can be applied to any image of
arbitrary bit depth. Again, this is not a bug. It is a way of saving disk space
;-)

Later,

--

Why don't you cite the passages so that we can focus on some to discuss.
Then, following Jesus, you can make fools of us and our "logic".

Indeed, if you can justifiably make this assertion, you must be a
genius in logic and making fools of us should be that much easier.

Ahh, perhaps that's why we've (astronomers) have just built *2* 10-meter
ground-based scopes and are studying designs for larger ones.
Seriously, though, you're never going to get a 10-meter scope into orbit
as cheaply as you can build one on the ground, and with adaptive optics
and a good site, the difference in quality is narrowed quite a bit
anyway.  Also, scopes in low orbit (like Hubble) can only observe things
continuously for ~45 minutes at a time, which can be a serious
limitation.

I sure as hell does if the 'point of light' is half a degree in extent
and as bright as the moon.  Have you ever noticed how much brighter the
night sky is on a moonlit night?

Existing satellites *are* points of light, but an advertising sign that
appeared as a point would be useless, so I rather think these will
appear larger than a 'typical' satellite.  Also, satellite tracks *are*
ruining lots of plates in the current Palomar Sky Survey.

What deparment are you in anyway, Philosophy?  You obviously are not
qualified to speak about astronomy...

Wrong about what?   I think they are correct in thinking that a 
well-placed bomb or six would get headlines, but I think they are 
wrong if they think that you can set off bombs and still be a 
Buddhist.

Maybe what we are seeing here is that Chinese cultural genocide
against the Tibetans has worked well enough that some Tibetans 
are now no longer Buddhist and are instead willing to behave like
the Chinese occupiers.   Every action is its own reward.

On the other hand, people who are aware of the occupation are mostly
full of admiration for the peaceful way that Tibetans have put up
with it.   And what does it cost us to admire them?   Zip.

Yes they are, and whether this serves them well or not depends on 
whether they want Buddhist principles or political independence.
And without political independence can they preserve their cultural
and religious traditions?

The Chinese would certainly refer to them as terrorists, just as
the Hitler regime used to refer to European resistance movements
as terrorists.

Better off in what way?   As proponents of pacifism or as 
proponents of political autonomy?

And better off in what time-scale?   The Soviet Empire practised
cultural genocide against something like a hundred small minorities,
some of which resisted violently, and some of which did not, but
in the end it was the Soviet Empire that collapsed and at least
some of the minorities survived.

Now some of the minorities are fighting one another.    Is that
because they have to, or because violent resistance to an oppressive
Empire legitimized violence?

Astronomy & Space magazine's UK telephone newsline carries the times to
see the Russian Space Station Mir which will be visible every EVENING (some
time between 9 o'clock and midnight) from April 27 to May 7. It's about as
bright as Jupiter at its best. There are two cosmonuats on board.

For the time to watch, tel. 0891-88-19-50 (48p/min peak 36p/min all other
times, but prediction is at start of the weekly message so it only costs a
few pence).

E-mail reports of sightings would be appreciated: give lat/long and UT (a
few seconds accuracy if possible) when it passes ABOVE or BELOW any bright
star (say brighter than mag. 3), planet or Moon.

With Moon in evening sky also, note that from somewhere in U.K. Mir will
pass in front of the Moon each night! Please alert local clubs to the
telephone newsline, and general public as Mir can cause quite a stir!

  (WORLD'S LARGEST ASTRO. SOC. per capita - unless you know better? 0.033%)
Tel: 0891-88-1950 (UK/N.Ireland) 1550-111-442 (Eire). Cost up to 48p per min

u920496@daimi.aau.dk (Hans Erik Martino Hansen) writes

Arthur C. Clarke was way ahead of you on this one... he wrote a short story
(title?) in the 1950s describing exactly your proposal!

I already responded to this on one dimension, but afterthoughts cause
me to make another, independent reply.  The problem with a "moment of
silence" is that it is NOT an even-handed way of "allowing" for religion
amongst students in the public schools.  As I noted before, Muslims need
more than a moment of silence in order to perform the prayers they are
required by Muhammad to do.  And (at least Orthodox) Jewish prayer also
has requirements that are not addressed by this.

There is, in fact, a highly selective BIAS towards Christian prayer in
this "moment of silence" shit.  And that is especially bizarre in that
Christian prayer DOESN'T NEED this stuff -- a Christain may pray totally
incognito AT ANY TIME (to some extent, this is true of Muslims and Jews
as well -- what I intend in my first paragraph is that there *are* some
characteristic forms of prayer in *these* religions which DO need special
times and/or behavior, which cannot be undertaken without an observer 
being able taking note of it.)

A Christian may pray, at ANY time -- silently and without any trace of
his activity being evident to others.  That may or may not be true of the
other religious traditions amongst us: certainly, these tend to have SOME
forms of prayer that WOULD evidence differences from American/Protestant
"mainstream" religion.

All that a "moment of silence" does is to allow THAT ONE tradition which
doesn't NEED it, to have a "special" place set aside in the public schools.
There is NOTHING in Christian prayer that requires public forms, or rugs,
or phylacteries, or anything else at all visible to the outside world.  A
Christian student MAY (and probably does) pray at innumerable times during
the day, without anyone else knowing it.  [That may also be true of non-
Christians -- I am not claimng otherwise].  In the "moment of silence" it
would STILL be difficult for the Jews to gather and daven, for the Muslims
to do their ablutions and find qiblah to Mecca and engage in the prescribed
forms.  But *of course* Christians can do *their* thing -- and therefore,
the provision is nothing but a disguised attempt to encourage just that.

Luckily, there *is* a strong Jewish presence in this country (and I, as
a Christian, revere some of the Jewish teachers I had in public schools),
and a growing Muslim presence as well.  I can only hope that the political
forces consequent on this will PREVENT the imposition of Christian forms
on non-Christians.

As far as I can see (as a Christian) there is NOTHING in this "moment of
silence" campaign but an attempt to use PUBLIC social pressure to FORCE
children to adhere to a pattern that is biased towards Christianity.  And
as a Christian, I *must* protest such coercion.  For what it's worth, I
suspect that the coercion is not really targeted at the non-Christians --
it is yet another case of FAILURE amongst Christian parents in "making"
their children prayerful, so that they want the public schools to teach
what THEY cannot manage to teach, despite having all the opportunity in
the world to do so.

If you have taught your children to pray, they do NOT need a moment of
silence in school.  If you have NOT managed to teach them, the moment
will only embarrass you.  Give it up.

I remember a physic prof. who talked about scaling a cue ball to Earth size.
Its was significantly less spherical that the Earth!

---
Terry F Figurelle			Boeing Defense & Space Group
email: tff@plato.ds.boeing.com		PO BOX 3999, Mail Stop 6J-EA
phone: 206-394-3115 fax:206-394-4300	Seattle, WA 98124-2499

I heard about the arms sale to Saudi Arabia.  Now, how is it such a grave
mistake to sell Saudi Arabia weapons?  Or are you claiming that we shouldn't
sell any weapons to other countries?  Straightforward answer please.

Who benefits from arms sales?  Hint, it isn't normally the gov't.  It is
the contractor that builds that piece of equipment.  Believe it or not,
the US and UK don't export the huge quantities of arms that you have
just accused them of doing.  Arms exports are rare enough, that it
requires an act of congress for non-small arms to most countries, if
not all.  Do you believe in telling everyone who can do what, and who
can sell their goods to whom?  

If you were able to prove that morality is objective, then it would
be correct to do so. The problem is, by the very meaning of the
words in question, to do so is oxymoronic. Of course you could
redefine the words, but that would still not lend support to the
underlying concept.

This does not parse. How could you hardly be wrong without dragging
in the o-word?

I have no problem with objectivity at all. It is my objectivity that
has led me to conclude that morality is subjective.

The remainder of my article deleted stated why. One would be an egotist to
believe that someone CARED about what Bill R. thought he needed
to say about God. Whether they did or not is irrelevant.

I believe that there's a 10 year period from time of death until
a person can be on a commemorative stamp.  It was broken once
for Lyndon Johnson (I think) but other than that it has held for
awhile.  Of course, we can still start now -- the Elvis stamp
was petitioned for ages and things really moved once it got
past the 10 year anniversary of his death.

	More to the point, how long are atheists going to be insulted
	by the disgraceful addition of religious blah-blah to our 
	money and out pledge?
-- 
	"What's big, noisy and has an IQ of 8?"

Who has experience with porting a GL-program to an Alpha APX  
workstation with Kubota's Denali 3D-Graphic.
Is there any problems?
Is the real graphic-performance like a SGI R4000 Indigo XS24Z?

This is a heavily edited/modified version of the Gopher FAQ intended to
give people just starting with gopher enough information to get a
client and jump into Gopher-space - a complete version can be obtained
as described below.  Once you have a gopher client point it at 
merlot.welch.jhu.edu and welcome to gopher-space!

-----

Common Questions and Answers about the Internet Gopher, a
client/server protocol for making a world wide information service,
with many implementations.  Posted to comp.infosystems.gopher, 
comp.answers, and news.answers every two weeks.

The most recent version of this FAQ can be gotten through gopher, or
via anonymous ftp:

rtfm.mit.edu:/pub/usenet/news.answers/gopher-faq

Those without FTP access should send e-mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu
with "send usenet/news.answers/finding-sources" in the body to find out
how to do FTP by e-mail.

------------------------------------------------------------------- 
List of questions in the Gopher FAQ:

Q0:  What is Gopher?
Q1:  Where can I get Gopher software?
Q2:  What do I need to access Gopher?
Q3:  Where are there publicly available logins for Gopher?
Q4:  Who Develops Gopher Software?
Q5: What is the relationship between Gopher and (WAIS, WWW, ftp)?
Q6: Are papers or articles describing Gopher available?
Q7: What is veronica?
Q8: What is Available for Biology?

A0:  The Internet Gopher client/server provides a distributed
     information delivery system around which a world/campus-wide
     information system (CWIS) can readily be constructed.   While
     providing a delivery vehicle for local information,  Gopher
     facilitates access to other Gopher and information servers
     throughout the world. 

A1:  via anonymous ftp to boombox.micro.umn.edu.  Look in the directory
     /pub/gopher

A2:  You will need a gopher "client" program that runs on your local PC
     or workstation

     There are clients for the following systems.  The directory
     following the name is the location of the client on the anonymous
     ftp site boombox.micro.umn.edu (134.84.132.2) in the directory
     /pub/gopher.

      Unix Curses & Emacs   :  /pub/gopher/Unix/gopher1.12.tar.Z
      Xwindows (athena)     :  /pub/gopher/Unix/xgopher1.2.tar.Z
      Xwindows (Motif)      :  /pub/gopher/Unix/moog
      Xwindows (Xview)      :  /pub/gopher/Unix/xvgopher
      Macintosh Hypercard   :  /pub/gopher/Macintosh-TurboGopher/old-versions *
      Macintosh Application :  /pub/gopher/Macintosh-TurboGopher *
      DOS w/Clarkson Driver :  /pub/gopher/PC_client/
      NeXTstep              :  /pub/gopher/NeXT/
      VM/CMS                :  /pub/gopher/Rice_CMS/ or /pub/gopher/VieGOPHER/
      VMS                   :  /pub/gopher/VMS/
      OS/2 2.0	            :  /pub/gopher/os2/
      MVS/XA                :  /pub/gopher/mvs/

     Many other clients and servers have been developed by others, the
     following is an attempt at a comprehensive list.  

      A Microsoft Windows Winsock client "The Gopher Book"
        sunsite.unc.edu:/pub/micro/pc-stuff/ms-windows/winsock/goph_tbk.zip

      A Macintosh Application, "MacGopher".
        ftp.cc.utah.edu:/pub/gopher/Macintosh *

      Another Macintosh application, "GopherApp".
        ftp.bio.indiana.edu:/util/gopher/gopherapp *

      A port of the UNIX curses client for DOS with PC/TCP
        oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu:/public/dos/misc/dosgopher.exe

      A port of the UNIX curses client for PC-NFS
     	 bcm.tmc.edu:/nfs/gopher.exe

      A beta version of the PC Gopher client for Novell's LAN Workplace
      for DOS
         lennon.itn.med.umich.edu:/dos/gopher

      A VMS DECwindows client for use with Wollongong or UCX
         job.acs.ohio-state.edu:XGOPHER_CLIENT.SHARE

     * Note: these Macintosh clients require MacTCP.

     Most of the above clients can also be fetched via a gopher client
     itself.  Put the following on a gopher server:

       Type=1
       Host=boombox.micro.umn.edu
       Port=70
       Path=
       Name=Gopher Software Distribution.

     Or point your gopher client at boombox.micro.umn.edu, port 70 and
     look in the gopher directory.

     There are also a number of public telnet login sites available.
     The University of Minnesota operates one on the machine
     "consultant.micro.umn.edu" (134.84.132.4) See Q3 for more
     information about this.  It is recommended that you run the client
     software instead of logging into the public telnet login sites.  A
     client uses the custom features of the local machine (mouse,
     scroll bars, etc.)  A local client is also faster.

Q3:  Where are there publicly available logins (ie places to telnet to
     in order to get a taste of gopher) for Gopher?

A3:  Here is a short list, use the site closest to you to minimize
     network lag.

     Telnet Public Logins:

     Hostname                  IP#              Login   Area
     ------------------------- ---------------  ------  -------------
     consultant.micro.umn.edu  134.84.132.4	gopher  North America
     gopher.uiuc.edu           128.174.33.160   gopher  North America
     panda.uiowa.edu           128.255.40.201	panda   North America
     gopher.sunet.se           192.36.125.2     gopher  Europe
     info.anu.edu.au           150.203.84.20    info    Australia
     gopher.chalmers.se        129.16.221.40    gopher  Sweden
     tolten.puc.cl             146.155.1.16     gopher  South America
     ecnet.ec		           157.100.45.2     gopher  Ecuador
     gan.ncc.go.jp             160.190.10.1     gopher  Japan

     It is recommended that you run the client software instead of
     logging into the public login sites.  A client uses the
     custom features of the local machine (mouse, scroll bars, etc.)
     and gives faster response.  Furthermore many of the basic features
     of clients - saving a file to your hard drive, printing a file
     to a local printer, viewing images, retrieving files from ftp
     sites etc.... are not available by the telnet logins.

A4:  Gopher was originally developed in April 1991 by the University
     of Minnesota Microcomputer, Workstation, Networks Center to help
     our campus find answers to their computer questions.  

     It has since grown into a full-fledged World Wide Information
     System used by a large number of sites in the world.

     Many people have contributed to the project, too numerous to
     count. 

     The people behind the much of the gopher software can be reached
     via e-mail at gopher@boombox.micro.umn.edu, or via paper mail:
   
      Internet Gopher Developers
      100 Union St. SE #190
      Minneapolis, MN 55455  USA

     Or via FAX at:
 
      +1 (612) 625-6817

A5: Gopher is intimately intertwined with these two other systems.
     As shipped the Unix gopher server has the capability to: 
     
       - Search local WAIS indices.
       - Query remote WAIS servers and funnel the results to gopher
         clients.
       - Query remote ftp sites and funnel the results to gopher
         clients.
       - Be queried by WWW (World Wide Web) clients (either using
         built in gopher querying or using native http querying.

A6: Gopher has a whole chapter devoted to it in :

     _The_Whole_Internet_, Ed Kroll, O'Reilly, 1992 (Editors note:
                             ..Great book, go out and buy a bunch!)

     _The_Internet_Passport: NorthWestNet's Guide to Our World Online"
     By Jonathan Kochmer and NorthWestNet. Published by NorthWestNet,
     Bellevue, WA. 1993. 516 pp. ISBN 0-9635281-0-6. 
     Contact info: passport@nwnet.net, or (206) 562-3000

     _A_Students_Guide_to_UNIX by Harley Hahn. (publisher McGraw Hill,
     Inc.; 1993 ISBN 0-07-025511-3)

     Other references include:

     _The_Internet_Gopher_, "ConneXions", July 1992, Interop.

     _Exploring_Internet_GopherSpace_ "The Internet Society News", v1n2 1992, 

     (You can subscribe to the Internet Society News by sending e-mail to
      isoc@nri.reston.va.us)

     _The_Internet_Gopher_Protocol_, Proceedings of the Twenty-Third
          IETF, CNRI, Section 5.3

     _Internet_Gopher_, Proceedings of Canadian Networking '92

     _The_Internet_Gopher_, INTERNET: Getting Started, SRI
          International, Section 10.5.5

     _Tools_help_Internet_users_discover_on-line_treasures, Computerworld,
          July 20, 1992

     _TCP/IP_Network_Administration_, O'Reilly.

      Balakrishan, B. (Oct 1992)
        "SPIGopher: Making SPIRES databases accessible through the
      Gopher protocol".  SPIRES Fall '92 Workshop, Chapel Hill, North
      Carolina.

      Tomer, C.  Information Technology Standards for Libraries,
      _Journal of the American Society for Information Science_,
      43(8):566-570, Sept 1992.

A7: veronica:  Very Easy Rodent-Oriented Net-wide Index to 
     Computerized Archives.

     veronica offers a keyword search of most gopher-server menu titles
     in the entire gopher web.  As archie is to ftp archives, veronica 
     is to gopherspace.  A veronica search produces a menu of gopher
     items, each of which is a direct pointer to a gopher data source.
     Because veronica is accessed through a gopher client, it is easy
     to use, and gives access to all types of data supported by the
     gopher protocol.

     To try veronica, select it from the "Other Gophers" menu on 
     Minnesota's gopher server, or point your gopher at:

     Name=veronica (search menu items in most of GopherSpace) 
     Type=1 
     Port=70 
     Path=1/veronica 
     Host=futique.scs.unr.edu

A8: There is an incredible amount of software, data and information
    availble to biologists now by gopher.

Here is a brief list of the Biological Databases that you can search 
via gopher:

      2.  BDT Tropical Data Base Searches/
      3.  Biotechnet Buyers Guide - Online Catalogues for Biology <TEL>
      4.  Search Protein Data Bank Headers <?>
      5.  Chlamydomonas Genetics Center /
      6.  Crystallization database/
      7.  HGMP Databases - Probes and Primers /
      8.  Museum of Paleontology TYPE Specimen Index <?>
      9.  MycDB - Mycobacterium DataBase <?>
      10. Search (Drosophila) Flybase (Indiana)/
      11. Search (GenBank + SWISS-PROT + PIR + PDB)  <?>
      12. Search AAtDB -  An Arabidopsis thaliana Database <?>
      13. Search ACEDB - A Caenorhabditis elegans Database <?>
      14. Search CompoundKB - A Metabolic Compound Database <?>
      15. Search Databases at Welchlab (Vectors, Promoters, NRL-3D, EST, OMI../
      16. Search EMBL <?>
      17. Search GenBank <?>
      18. Search Genbank - 2 <?>
      19. Search Genbank Updates <?>
      20. Search LiMB <?>
      21. Search PIR  <?>
      22. Search PIR (keyword,species...) <?>
      23. Search PROSITE <?>
      24. Search Rebase - Restriction Enzyme Database <?>
      25. Search SWISS-PROT <?>
      26. Search TFD <?>
      27. Search the C. elegans Strain List  <?>
      28. Search the DNA Database of Japan <?>
      29. Search the EC Enzyme Database  <?>
      30. Search the GrainGenes database  <?>
      31. Search the Maize Database /
      32.  Cloning Vectors: plasmids, phage, etc. <?>
      33.  EPD - Eukaryotic Promoter Database <?>
      34.  EST - Expressed Sequence Tag Database - Human <?>
      35.  wEST - Expressed Sequence Tag Database - C. elegans <?>
      36.  Kabat Database of Proteins of Immunological Interest <?>
      37.  NRL_3D Protein Sequence-Structure Database <?>
      38.  OMIM - Online Mendelian Inheritance in Man <?>
      39.  Seqanalref - Sequence Analysis Bibliographic Reference Data Ban.. <?>
      40. Search Rebase - Restriction Enzyme Database <?>
      41. Search the EC Enzyme Database <?>
      42. Search The Rodent Section of Genbank <?>
      43. Database Taxonomy (Genbank, Swiss-Prot ...)/
      44. Retrieve Full PDB Entries by Accession Number <?>
      45. Search for All Researchers funded by NIH <?>
      46. Search for Genome Researchers funded by DOE <?>
      47. Search for Researchers funded by NSF <?>
      48. Search for Researchers funded by the USDA <?>
      49. E-mail Addresses of Crystallographers/
      50. E-mail Addresses of Yeast Reasearchers/
      51. Phonebooks Around the World/
      52.  Search and Retrieve Software for All Computers/
      53.  Search and Retrieve Macintosh Software/
      54.  Search and Retrieve DOS Software/
      55.  Search and Retrieve GNU Software/
      56.  Search and Retrieve Software for Biology/
      57.  Search for Agricultural Software/
      58.  Search and Retrieve Graphics Software and Data/
      59.  Search and Retrieve all Online Perl Scripts/
      60.  FTP Sites For Biology (56 archives for software and data)/

I think this should be illuminating to all. Let me make a first
suggestion. When Arabic words, especially technical ones, become of use 
let us define them for those, especially atheists, to whom they may not be
terribly familiar. Please also note that though I did initially refer
to Khomeini as a heretic for what I understood to be a claim -- rejected 
by you since -- of personal infallibility, I withdraw this as a basis
for such a statement. I conditionally retain this reference in regard
to Khomeini's advocacy of the thesis of the infallibility of the 
so-called "Twelve Imams," which is in clear conflict with the Qur'an 
in that it places the Twelve Imams in a category of behavior and example
higher than that of the Muhammad, in that the Qur'an shows that the
Prophet was clearly fallible, as well as (it appears, given your
abstruse theological statment regarding the "natures"  of the Twelve
Imams) placing them in a different metaphysical category than the 
remainder of humanity, with the possible exception of Muhammad, 
something which verges on the sin of association.

: BULLSHIT!!! In the Gulf Massacre, 7% of all ordnance used was "smart." The
: rest - that's 93% - was just regular, dumb ol' iron bombs and stuff. Have
: you forgotten that the Pentagon definition of a successful Patriot launch
: was when the missile cleared the launching tube with no damage? Or that a
: successful interception of a Scud was defined as "the Patriot and Scud
: passed each other in the same area of the sky"?
: 
: And of the 7% that was the "smart" stuff, 35% hit. Again - try to follow me
: here - that means 65% of this "smart" arsenal missed.

             Cool!
	I think you mean Moon.
		(Sorry, I had to.)  ; )

From the description I've read, it's prob. only going to be
as bright as Jupiter. Anything else is probably hype from the
opponents or wishful thinking from the sponsors.

If we could do something as bright as the full moon that soon,
that cheap, the CIS would have done it already.

Well ...
Have a look at a new journal: Journal of Experimental Mathematics
It has several Fields medallists on its editorial board.
You want to knwo more?
Try Klaus Peters in Boston or David Epstein at Warwick .

Considering the magnitude of loss of life in both the Moro Castle
and Titanic disasters,  I can't believe you can be so blithe
there fred.

Besides if a LNG tanker breaks up in a close harbor, you can kiss
off quite a lot of population.  same thing for any chemical
tankers.

I know the coast guard makes  mandatory safety equipment
checks on all watercraft.  they use this as an excuse to
make narcotics  searches, without warrants.

I suspect, that  commercial craft need a certificate at least similiar
in scope to an air worthiness certificate from the DOT.

I am not familiar with, or knowledgeable about the original language,
but I believe there is a word for "idol" and that the translator
would have used the word "idol" instead of "graven image" had
the original said "idol."  So I think you're wrong here, but
then again I could be too.  I just suggesting a way to determine
whether the interpretation you offer is correct.

As I understand, that number is deceptive.  The reason is that the money
cost was in non-oil sales for the most part.  Iraq still is not allowed
to sell oil, or do many of the things under the initial sanctions, but
is still surviving.

Of the ~93% (I have heard figures closer to 80%, but I won't quibble your
figures), most was dropped in carpet bombing of regions only occupied by
enemy troops.  A B-52 drops a lot of bombs in one sortie, and we used them
around the clock.  Not to mention other smaller aircraft using dumb
munitions.  

2.  The Patriot uses a proximity fuse.  The adjusted figures for number
of Patriot kills of SS-1 derivitives is ~60-70%.  That figure came
not from some fluke in the Pentagon, but a someone working with such
stuff in another part of DoD.

3.  The statement precision bombing was the norm, is true around areas
where civilians were close to the target.  We dropped by tonnage very
little bombs in populated regions, explaining the figures.  

This figure, is far below all the other figures I have seen.  If it
is indeed accurate, then how do you explain the discrepancy between
that figure, and other figures from international organizations?
Most figures I have seen place the hit ratio close to 70%, which is 
still far higher than your 35%.  Or does your figure say a bomb
missed if the plane took off with it, and the bomb never hit the target,
regardless of whether or not the bomb was dropped?  Such methods
are used all the time to lie with statistics.

I have _never_ seen any source that was claiming such a figure.  Please
post the source so its reliability can be judged.  

Hello,
I have some problem in converting tga file(generated by POVray) to
rle file. When I convert, I do not get any warning message. But
if I use xloadimage/getx11, something is wrong.

Error messages are,
% targatorle -o o.rle data.tga
% xloadimage o.rle
o.rle is a 0x0 24 bit RLE image with no map (will dither to 8 bits), with gamma of 1.00
  Dithering image...done
  Building XImage...done
xloadimage: X Error: BadValue (integer parameter out of range for operation) on 0x0
xloadimage: X Error: BadWindow (invalid Window parameter) on 0xb00003
......

I know that I need to install ppmtorle and tgatoppm, but I do not spend
time to install them. Even I do not want to generate .rgb from POVray
and then convert them to rle, if possible.(.rgb to rle works, but
it will mess up my directory with so many files, and it needs 2 more
steps to finally convert to rle file. say cat | rawtorle | rleflip )
Does any body out there have same experience/problems ?

   I assume that can only be guessed at by the assumed energy of the
   event and the 1/r^2 law.  So, if the 1/r^2 law is incorrect (assume
   some unknown material [dark matter??] inhibits Gamma Ray propagation),
   could it be possible that we are actually seeing much less energetic
   events happening much closer to us?  The even distribution could
   be caused by the characteristic propagation distance of gamma rays 
   being shorter then 1/2 the thickness of the disk of the galaxy.

I have some color gifs which I would like to archive in a much smaller
size using a grayscale palette of 16 shades. The quantization to 16 grays
introduces some ugly bands in the pictures, which can be nicely eliminated
by dithering. Up to now I have used XV to process the images, but now I
would like to automate the procedure.

The problem is that XV can't (I think) convert images automatically, and the
obvious alternative PNMPLUS (PPMQUANT and PNMDITHER) don't even get close to
XV's quality. PNMDITHER apparently dithers in RGB, even though the images
are in grayscale. The dithering routine in XV seems to use the natural image
colors for the dither. Is this or any similar routine available in the
public domain? If so, where?  

I use Arts & Letters on a PC and if you make use of the Tracing Preferences
it traces beautifully. BUT - there's a trick to tracing. I've traced entire
cartoon images into custom clip art, but you can't expect to just point to
the image and get it just like that, it takes a little work (in some cases
a lot of work). You need to trace a drawing piece by piece, and then put it 
together... it's kinda hard to explain in type, but if you're ever in Reno
I can give you a little demonstration!

Once again, this posting has been delayed for about a week by falling
between some software cracks...

[Here follows an introduction to the controversial incident, and an
 apologetic explanation purporting to show why it couldn't actually
 have happened.  The historicity of the episode doesn't matter to what
 follows]

I don't know whether I'm quoting Gregg or Zakaria below.  Anyway, back
to current affairs,

Among others; this incident is not something Rushdie or Watt or anyone
else dug up from nowhere, it is a well known story, a myth if you
will, known (according to Umar Khan) to "Every Muslim school boy and
girl", and so presumably to Rushdie, and to Gibreel Farishta.

Yes, this is what writing fiction is all about.  Rushdie was writing
about a crisis of faith, and chose this myth to present it, by placing
the actor "Gibreel" in the role of the angel whose name he took.
Rushdie was not writing a history or theology book, and nowhere claims
or implies that this is what actually happened.  It's somewhat like
stories woven around the relationship between Jesus and the reformed
prostitute Mary Magdalene (another myth).  Or those referring to the
Arthurian mythos, or the Grail legend, or the Wandering Jew, or dozens
of others.  If you can stand to read the work of a blasphemer,
consider Salman Rushdie's children's book "Haroun and the Sea of
Stories" for an idea of the way a storyteller -- a specific
storyteller -- works with existing story lines.

No.  Muhammad's [Mahound's] integrity is not really impugned in this
part of the story, and there's no reason to think this was Rushdie's
intent: Gibreel, as the archangel, produces the verses (divine and
satanic), though he doesn't know their provenance.  It is not implied
(in a straight reading) that Muhammad influences them:

    " *Not my voice* I'd never know such words I'm no classy speaker
    never was never will be but this isn't my voice it's a Voice.
      Mahound's eyes open wide, he's seeing some kind of vision,
    staring at it, oh, that's right, Gibreel remembers, me.  He's
    seeing me.  My lips moving, being moved by.  What, whom?  Don't
    know, can't say.  Nevertheless, here they are, coming out of my
    mouth, up my throat, past my teeth: the Words.
      Being God's postman is no fun, yaar.
      Butbutbut: God isn't in this picture.
      God knows whose postman I've been."

It's ambiguous: is Mahound somehow manipulating Gibreel?  Is it Satan?
Or something else?  The answer is not given.

To be sure, the question is raised.  This novel explores faith and the
role of revelation in religion, among other things.  Addressing loss
of faith implicitly raises questions about the truth of revelation,
but this novel proposes no answers, at least not directly.  The very
existence of a newsgroup named "alt.atheism" raises the same
questions, more forcefully, and does propose some answers, which is
the real relevance.  If Rushdie's mild fictional exploration is "filth
and lies", and he "asked for what he got", are we next on the fatwa
list?  (That's a rhetorical question, of course.)
-- 

                             April 30, 1993
                              11:30 AM PDT

DSS-65 (Madrid 34 meter antenna) did not acquire the expected Mars Observer
Spacecraft signal at the scheduled beginning of track yesterday morning (4/29)
at approximately 6:00 AM.  Indications were that the spacecraft had entered a
Fault Protection mode sometime between that time and receipt of normal
telemetry at the end of the previous station pass (DSS-15 - Goldstone 34
meter antenna) at approximately 8:00 PM the evening before.  Entry into
Contingency Mode was verified when signal was reacquired and telemetry
indicated that the spacecraft was sun coning.  After subsystem engineers
reported all systems performing nominally, fault protection telemetry modes
were reconfigured and memory readouts of command system Audit Queue and
AACS (Attitude and Articulation Control Subsystem) Starex performed.  These
readouts verified that Contingency Mode entry occurred shortly after 1:30 AM
yesterday, 4/29/93.  Preliminary indications are that a Sun Ephemeris Check
failure triggered fault protection.  However, the Flight Team will be
determining the precise cause over the next few days.

As of last evening, the spacecraft had been commanded back to Inertial
Reference and was stable in that mode.  The Flight Team is planning to
command the spacecraft back to Array Normal Spin state today.

I need triangulized data of some nice looking model with some
texture mapping. It would be better if the parametric values
of each vertex( for the surface before triangulized ) are
avaliable along with the Euclidean points so that we
could use them for texture mapping.

Dennis.

	WE agree a lot ,  it's just we don't both post when we agree
on something.  And when we disagree, it tends to be a lot more
noticeable.;-)

Yes, that's exactly what I felt.  My heart just felt that what I was
being taught was *wrong* -- a basically good message, but framed in
errors.  I could not with a clear conscience accept that women were
somehow not equal to men, that homosexuals are "guilty" of their
lifestyle, that pride in one's work is a bad thing, that Jesus died
for me -- I don't want ANYBODY to die for me, especially as an
impersonal act where the person can't possibly even *know* me well
enough to really know if I'm worth dying for or not.

I was never able to accept the bit about Jesus's death being a good
thing.  If that means that I'm just not comprehending a basic message
of Christianity, then so be it.  Maybe I'm just not compatible with
Christianity.  I just refuse to follow rules blindly, and since I
can't even convince myself that your god even EXISTS in the way you
describe it, I've got to just follow my own conscience in these matters.

Don't think that my morals are shoddy or nonexistent just because I
don't believe in your god.  I will not steal, and I will not murder --
not because I fear divine repudiation, but because these just *aren't*
in my character.  You may think there's nothing keeping me from just
running around on a murdering spree, stealing things when I'm able,
insulting people for the heck of it, because I'm not answerable to
anyone; but you'd be wrong.  I'm answerable to myself.  A life like
that would be a cheap life; I happen to want to earn respect in myself.

My initial break with Christianity came after a lot of soul-searching
and a lot of wondering why I could no longer feel the 'presence' of
God with me.  I finally decided that I had once "felt" this presence
just as I had "felt" my mighty teddy bear beside me when I was a
little tyke, protecting me from the monsters under the bed -- that I
had believed in God just as I had believed in the teddy bear, as
something of an emotional crutch to protect me from perceived dangers.

Since then, I've never abandoned the possibility that maybe your
supernatural trinity does exist.  But there are a few times when, in
my darkened room by my bed, I have set aside everything I believe for
a moment and called out to whatever's out there, because I want to
know the truth even if it means abandoning everything I know.  And I
have not yet received an answer.

Nope.  It may well be unknowable.  Scientists have suggested that the
universe may be finite and wrap around on itself (the three-dimensional
universe may be mapped onto a four-dimensional supersphere in the same
way you can map a two-dimensional plane onto a three-dimensional
sphere; see _Sphereland_, the sequel to _Flatland_, for more thoughts
on this).  Our entire universe might just be an electron in a four-
dimensional universe, which in turn may only be an insignificant speck
in a universe above that, and so on and so forth until the variables
become too much for us to even speculate on.

That is, there's no possible way for us to know exactly how we came to
be, so there's no reason at all to believe that your God exists nor
had anything to do with it.

Christians have provided me with nothing except quotes from your holy
book, and all sorts of tactics to try to get me to believe: guilt
trips, insinuations that I'm without morals, arguments from disbelief
("how can you possibly believe that God *doesn't* exist?"), and so
forth.  All I'm asking is for you to convince me.  I want to be convinced,
but it's not going to be easy.

Having had years upon years of contact with your religion from both
the inside and the outside, I view it as harmful in many ways.  It
preys on people who want to find meaning in their lives, and once it's
got these people, it teaches them to have pity (and sometimes starkly
intolerant) of others who do not share these views.  Maybe you'll say
that your religion doesn't teach that -- but I've got to judge
Christianity from the Christians I know.

I feel that it is entirely possible and good to have faith in one's
self, and to be a positive influence on society for no better reason
than that.

So I hope that my words in this newsgroup will at least make some
people think.  I want Christians to realize that there are perfectly
valid lifestyles and opinions that have nothing to do with their deity
whatsoever, and I want people who are considering Christianity to
realize that Christianity does not hold the sole key to a happy,
fulfilled life.

I have known some very nice Christians who have done some very nice
things.  I think what sets these people apart from the general masses
is that they recognize that their religious beliefs may be wrong, and
they know the weaknesses of their religion, yet they still decide to
believe, but they keep their beliefs to themselves and do not think
any less of people who don't agree with them.

Precisely my point.  You've still not given me a reason to be a
Christian instead of a Buddhist or a Moslem...

... just as the Moslems aren't religious, and the Buddhists aren't
religious.  Who *is* religious, then?

We here at IBM have the same problem with our workstations.  I was also
shocked when I first realized that you have to offset lines from fills by
about 16 bits (assuming 24 bit z buffer).  This seems huge, but is only
1/256 of the dynamic range.  In those terms it doesn't seem so bad.  What
is happening is that the interpolation in z is not totally linear, due
mainly to roundoff, I believe.  So the polygon is not planar in z, but is
more like a Ruffles potato chip.  Ditto with lines.  When you start/end at
different x/y values, the "ridges" are out of phase, resulting in the
stitch effect.  You have the same problem if you try to draw 1 polygon
right on top of another, but with different vertices.  You will likely see
a smeared effect where they overlap.
  Example:
  Try Polygon 1: (100,100,100) (100,200,100) (200,200,100) (200,100,100)
      Polygon 2: (125,125,100) (125,175,100) (175,175,100) (175,125,100)

Your implementation is correct.  In fact, we do a similar trick when
rendering primitives that have lines and polygons - such as NURBS surfaces
with isoparametric lines.  Without the trick, the lines appear stitched, as
you say.  When the application draws lines/polygons independently, the
system does not have the smarts to automatically do the z shifting, so the
application must do it.  This is what you have discovered and are doing.
Bravo!

(Note to IBM'ers:  The information given here has been previously disclosed
through proper channels so I'm not giving away any new unpublished info.)

How big of a lightning rod, would you need for protection?
and  would you need jupiter as a ground plane.

[...]

I think you are mistaken in thinking Tom Scharle to be a atheist.
You will find both atheists and Christians among your opponents on t.o.
Calling your opponents them "Branch Athiests zealots" does nothing for
your credibility.

Oh yes, do.

Dear me. This is taken _so_ out of context that it's hard to know where
to start... The quote starts with material from p 78, and ends with material
from page 81!

On page 78, there's the bit that says (the parts left out in John King's
"quote" are marked by <>):
"<...> the doubt that has infiltrated the previous, smugly confident certitude
of evolutionary biology<'s last twenty years> has inflamed passions <and
provoked some very interesting thought and research>."

Eldridge goes on immediately following the butchered quote:
"In short, evolutionary biology has entered a phase of creativity that is
the hallmark of good, active science."

The material that is on page 81 that is "quoted" by John King has been
butchered even more severely:

"<I mention this only to illustrate the> **There is**[these words not
in the original text-prl] lack of agreement even within warring camps
<: things are really in uproar these days, and each of the "basic" ways
of looking at evolutionary biology has its minor variants.> Sometimes
it seems as if there are as many variations on each evolutionary theme
as there are individual biologists."

Eldridge goes on:
"But that's the way it should be; this is how science is supposed to operate."

And just a few sentences down:

"When they [creationists] misrepresent the exuberant, creative doubt and
controversy permeating evolutionary biology these days, they are actively
promoting scientific illiteracy."

And that, John E. King, is precisely what you have done with Eldridge's
article. Are you personally responsible for the butchery of the text or
have you pulled it out of some creationist propaganda? You owe the people
reading t.o an apology for posting such misrepresentation.

Brian, have you checked out what your priests told you in the
Bible to see whether they were telling you the truth?  Did you know
that according to the Bible, there shouldn't even be such things as
"priests" anymore?  Do you know why the preisthood was established in
the Old Testament to begin with and the reasons why after Jesus,
there were no priests--that is until the Roman Catholic Church 
300 years later devised the doctrine of transubstantiation by ignoring
the whole concept beyond the book of Hebrews?

You said you analyzed the Bible very closely.  I think you are
lying.  For if you had, I would think you would have at least
got the doctrine of hell straight.

Well, that is certainly different, but it looks as if there is a translation
found for everything. By the way, I am most surprised to hear that night and
day move in an orbit.

Well, GIF stands for Graphics Interchange Format and was put forth by
Compuserve back in 1987(?) or so.  It was to create a format that could be
read and displayed by any system.  GIF is limited to 8 bit color but has
a built in compression scheme (LZW?).

IFF is not really a graphics format, but rather a standard way to package
images, sounds, animations, text, or whatever into one file.  IFF was
created by Electronic Arts, I do believe (I could be wrong), for the Amiga.
It was quickly adopted as pretty much the standard file format for the Amiga.
The most common image format for the IFF package is an ILBM (InterLeaved
BitMap?) but many others exist.  This format supports 24 bit color images.

Information on both of these and many more are available via anonymous ftp at
zamenhof.cs.rice.edu in the directory /pub/graphics.formats
(Taken from the FAQ for this news group.)  :)

Baloney.  Either the programmer or the people who decided to let their
actions be governed by the program are clearly at fault.  If you neglect
to do maintenance on your car, and the steering goes out, you _are_
responsible for the death of all those kids on the sidewalk your car
subsequently drives over "on its own".

                                                           ^^-- name?

Other than it tells quite a lot about the Man himself. 

Are you the spokesman for "most people?"

That you don't recognize the Biblical commentary used.  Those in the
church know the language though, and have no such excuse.  

You missed the point -- which is that the Prophets, the Psalms, and 
Revelation, all together, provide a very rich view of a very special
event -- a wedding.

How are you able to make such a conclusion?  Please note, that the
first part of Revelation makes it clear that the address is to those
in the church. That said, it doesn't hurt to try to see what the 
prophecies are ahead of time -- for those outside the church.

So you say. It should be interesting to see what the investigators 
conclude, and what the final judgments are.

So much for war and government eh.

Very glad you asked, since I goofed -- it should be Philippian 1:14-19: 
(here from NIV)

	Because of my chains, most of the brothers in the Lord
	have been encouraged to speak the word of God more
	courageously and fearlessly.

	It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and 
	rivalry, but others out of good will. The latter do so
	in love, knowing that I am put here for the gospel. 
	The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not
	sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for
	me while I am chains. But what does it matter? 

	The important thing is that in every way, whether from
	false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because
	of this I rejoice.
	
My comment stems from the realization that we who love the Lord, are
human and imperfect. Whatever we "preach," no matter how eloquent, or
how corrupted -- is of little difference. Those who know the Master's
voice will recognize Him -- a gem-stone amidst rock. Such is also the 
lesson of the "stumblingblock." For those who have an ear to hear. 	

How about the discussion of the STS Tether experiment.  Ran forward,
it would suck energy from the Earth's magnetic field, while trivially
slowing the Shuttle.  It could also have run backward -- if they ran 
electricity through the tether the other way, it would have trivially
propelled the Shuttle faster.

But an even better example comes to mind.  There's this electronics guy,
someone like Craig Anderton or Don Lancaster.  Ten years ago he wrote about
an invention of his.  He could take a light-detector, run current through
it at about a hundred times its rating, and it would glow.  He got legal
rights to this design of a combination "fiber optic emitter/receiver".  This
turned out to be the basic unit of ATT's  (I think) plan to bring Brazil's
communications system into the 21st century.  (The article was mostly about
his legal wranglings with the company that eventually got him well-compensated
for his invention.)

The variance from perfect sphericity in a model of the earth small enough
to fit into your home would probably be imperceptible.

Any globe you can buy will be close enough.

-- 

My 24-bit color 600 dpi fladbed scanner can do the job for you. GIF, TIFF,
PCX, BMP. Interested? Please write to me: imagesyz@aol.com

      _The_ problem with Oort cloud sources is that absolutely
      no plausible mechanism has been proposed. It would have
      to involve new physics as far as I can tell. Closest to
      "conventional" Oort sources is a model of B-field pinching
      by comets, it's got too many holes in it to count, but at
      least it was a good try...

   So you have a plausible model for GRB's at astronomical distances?

I don't have any plausible models for GRBs at any distances ;-)

   Recent observations have just about ruled out the merging neutron star
   hypothesis, which had a lot of problems, anyhow.  We have to look for
   implausible models and what is fundamentally allowed independent of
   models.

Hmm, the "superbowl" burst has been claimed in press releases
to cast doubt on the merging NS hypothesis, from what I've read
(and I haven't seen the papers, only the press) I'd say it is
consistent with some of the merging NS models

   A paper on the possibility of GRB's in the Oort cloud just came
   through the astrophysics abstract service.  To get a copy of this

   Here is the abstract of that paper.

 ...
      indicator to these events all possible sources which are
      isotropically distributed should remain under consideration. This is
      why the Oort cloud of comets is kept on the list,
      although there is no known mechanism for generating \GRBs
      from cometary nuclei. Unlikely as it may seem, the possibility that \GRBs
      originate in the solar cometary cloud
      cannot be excluded until it is disproved.

This does not propose a _mechanism_ for GRBs in the Oort (and, no,
anti-matter annihilation does not fit the spectra at least as far
as I understand annihilation spectra...). Big difference.
That's ignoring the question of how you fit a distribution
to the Oort distribution when the Oort distribution is not well
known - in particular comet aphelia (which are not well known)
are not a good measure of the Oort cloud distribution...

  i guess i ought not conclude from this, then, that since you didn't ask to
be created, you don't care if you go to hell.  :)

  i don't consider myself an unthinking sheep.  the bible says god created
us to be in communion and obedience to him.  the first and only rule was
to not eat of a certain tree, or else the punishment is distance from him
and physical death.  god's intention in creating us is to have a relationship
with us.  the bible documents god's attempts to have that relationship
culminating in the person of jesus to bear the consequences of all sin so
that all who accept him can have a relationship with god again: the purpose
of creation.

	I am unable to run Quicktime 1.5 on my IIvx running System 7.1, and
	I don't know why. (If there is a better group to post this to, please
	let me know.) Quicktime 1.0 works fine, but when I try to run a movie
	in any application that supports it, Like Simple Player, Canvas or
	Word, I get the message "sorry a system error occurred '<Application>'
	unimplemented trap <continue> <restart>", I press <continue> and get
	"The application 'unknown' has unexpectedly quit, because an error of
	type 12 occurred." Substitute Simple Player or Canvas or Word for
	'<Application>, and the messages are always the same. If I restart with
	Quicktime 1.0, I have no problems. Any suggestions? I am at a loss.
		Thanks in advance. Oh yah, please email me as I don't check
		the newsgroups very often.

Could someone explain where these names come from?   I'm sure there's a 
perfectly good reason to name a planetoid "Smiley," but I'm equally sure that
I don't know what that reason is.

.. 

As Ben says - this re-boost idea is all news to us here.  Do you know 
something we don't?  Please supply a source - it would be nice for 
the schedulers of observations to know where the thing is going to 
be.  These altitude numbers are also way off.  

My best source has: 
"Minimum ST ALTITUDE in the PMDB is:    573 Kilometers"
"Maximum ST ALTITUDE in the PMDB is:    603 Kilometers"
"Delta   ST ALTITUDE in the PMDB is:      3 Kilometers" 

(PMDB is Proposal Management Data Base - used to schedule observations.) 
..

Could you supply some calculations?  You might check some recent 
postings that explained that 'a small booster' as suggested does 
not now exist, so comparing the mass of something that doesn't 
exist to the mass of the OMS fuel seems impossible.  The contamination 
threat also remains.  

.. 
  Longer drag life I can understand, but could you explain the 
antenna pointing?  

Tell me about it.  Although the arrays can be (and are) moved perfectly 
well utilizing the second electronics box.  Getting them both working 
is much desireable so as to reclaim redundancy.  

I don't mean to jump on you - helpful suggestions are always welcome 
and we all know the more ideas the better, but I do want the true 
situation to be described clearly and correctly, lest some get 
confused. 

The entire business of a Bank is the management of risk.   That's
what a Bank is for.   That's what people who work for Banks do.

OK, but in that case why are you posting about it?   What I
hear you saying is "I don't understand this stuff, but if Islam
says it's so, it's so".

We want to give lawyers something to do in the 21st cen., don't we?

Oh I bet you do.  They are probably just better at it than our crooks. :-)

[ . . .]

I am a relativist who would like to answer your question, but the way you
phrase the question makes it unanswerable.  The concepts of "right"
and "wrong" (or "correct/incorrect" or "true/false") belong to the
domain of epistemological rather than moral questions.  It makes no
sense to ask if a moral position is right or wrong, although it is
legitimate to ask if it is good (or better than another position).

Let me illustrate this point by looking at the psychological derivatives
of epistemology and ethics:  perception and motivation, respectively.
One can certainly ask if a percept is "right" (correct, true,
veridical) or "wrong" (incorrect, false, illusory).  But it makes little
sense to ask if a motive is true or false.  On the other hand, it is
strange to ask whether a percept is morally good or evil, but one can
certainly ask that question about motives.

Therefore, your suggested answers (a)-(c) simply can't be considered:
they assume you can judge the correctness of a moral judgment.

Now the problem with (d) is that it is double-barrelled:  I agree with
the first part (that the "rightness" of a moral position is a
meaningless question), for the reasons stated above.  But that is
irrelevant to the alleged implication (not an implication at all) that
one cannot feel peace is better than war.  I certainly can make
value judgments (bad, better, best) without asserting the "correctness"
of the position.

Sorry for the lengthy dismissal of (a)-(d).  My short (e) answer is
that when two individuals grotesquely disagree on a moral issue,
neither is right (correct) or wrong (incorrect).  They simply hold
different moral values (feelings).

-*----

I believe that Maharishi is titular.  (Someone please correct me if 
I am wrong.)  Thus, Maharishi Rajneesh is a different person from
Maharishi Mahesh, but they are both Maharishis.

Bzzt. Thank you for playing.

You're confusing the puritans/pilgrims with the founding fathers.
Difference of ~150 years and a much different culture...

Convenient?  It seems very appropriate that this is cross-posted to
alt.conspiracy.

Assuming the most favorable interpretation of your '1000 degree'
measurement (that the temperature is in Centigrade, rather than the
more common -in the US- Fahrenheit), you are still laboring under at
least 2 misconceptions:

1.  You seem to believe that steel melts somewhere around 1000 C.
    Actually, the melting point of most iron alloys (and steels are
    iron alloys) is in the neighborhood of 1400 C.  Even if the gun
    were found in area which achieved the 1000 C temperature, the steel
    parts of the gun would not be deformed, and it would still be
    trivial to identify the nature of the weapon.

2.  A fire is not an isothermal process.  There are 'hot' spots and
    'cold' spots, though 'cold' is purely a relative term.   So the
    weapon was not necessarily situated in a hot spot, as you seem to
    imply.  And, even if it was, so what?  It would not have melted
    anyway.

					^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I am sure your numbers are far better then mine.  As i said above,
i don't have exact numbers.

How different would the contamination threat of a small manuevering tug
be from that of the Shuttle and it's OMS engines??????

I know that no small manuevering tug exists,  but maybe  one could
soup up a Bus 1.   Does anyone out there have the de-clasified
specs on hte BUS 1?  would it be able to provide enough  control
force to balance the HST,  and  still have the rocket thrust
to hurl her into a decent high orbit?

Sorry,  that should be intrument pointing.

Plus, if the second box gets fritzy, you could be in shitter ville
real fast.

The problem is no-one seems to have the exact numbers.  When the mission
was planned originally at 3 spacewalks,  and 3 astronauts,  there was
enormous concern over the mass margins for the flight.  THey
have now planned for 5 EVA's,  an 11 day mission and have 2 reserve
EVA's and an emergency EVA.  Obviously that is coming from somewhere.
My guess is the OMS burn  fuel,  or  re-boost  margin.   

I just figured, if GOldin wants to really,  prove out faster, cheaper
better,   have some of the whiz kids  slap together an expendable
space manuevering tug  out of a BUs1,  and use that for the re-boost.
it has to be better then using the Discovery as a tow truck.

You can do a whole hell of a lot better than 2 or 3 degrees with
the differential timing measurements from the interplanetary network.
Ignore the directional information from BATSE; just look at the time
of arrival.  With three detectors properly arranged, one can often
get positions down to ~arc minutes.

BTW, about Oort cloud sources: shouldn't this be testable in the
fairly near future?  Some of the GRBs have very short rise times (< 1
ms).  We could detect the curvature of the burst wavefront out to a
distance of on the order of b^2/(t c) where b is the detector spacing
and t the time resolution.  For t = 1 ms and b = 2 AU, this is on the
order of 16 light years.  I understand statistics will reduce this
number considerably, as would geometry if the burst is coming from the
wrong direction.

Why jettison the SSMEs?  Why not hold on to them and have a shuttle 
bring them down to use as spares?

[Frank's solution deleted.]

If you have access to telnet, contact nyx.cs.du.edu.  It's a public access
Unix system, completly free, and all you need to for access is a verifiable
form of ID (I think he requires a notarized copy of a picture, or a check, or
some such).

STK1203@VAX003.STOCKTON.EDU Pontificated: 

One of the sci.space FAQ postings deal with this.  It's archived
somewhere.  Perhaps someone can post where it is (I don'
remember).  

Or alternatively, 75% of the questions cover 10% of the topics in this group -
making them frequently asked.

So the other 25% cover 90% of the topics, making them rarely asked and thus in
sore need of answering ...

--

That is indeed the present consensus.  Contrary to what Dr. Fox has
been saying, however, present consensus is *not* that the longer
passage in Josephus about Jesus was inserted, but only that it was
modified.
   There is no question that it was *at least* modified (based on what
Origen says--that Josephus did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah), but
I don't think the argument that it appears "out of context" is a very
good one.  (I haven't looked at the context for a while; perhaps somebody
could give some of the sentences which precede and follow the Jesus
passage.)

Can some kind soul point me to references for the above formats?

Thanks,

: 
: > Surely you are not equating David Koresh with Christianity? The two are
: > not comparable.
: 
: This is always an option: when the sect is causing harm, re-label
: the cult to something else.
: 
: Cheers,
: Kent

Good point.

I would not doubt that DK could have spouted verse and debated with best.
According to reports his extensive Bible knowledge was one way he sucked
in the fools (followers?).

Quote bible all you want. I too judge what you say be what you do and
even more by if it makes sense.

Sense, common that is.  Doesn't seem so common after all!

No, that's the point of evolution, not the point of "natural
morality".   Unless, of course, as I have suggested several
times already, "natural morality" is just a renaming.

But your "yes?" is actually stronger than this.    You are
agreeing that "every time an organism evolves cooperative 
behaviour" you are going to call it a "natural morality."

Bee dance is a naturally developed piece of cooperative behaviour.

Oh boy, get a small baby and figure out how much brain power they
have the first 6 months....

Cheers,
Kent

I see it as the camel's nose.

I'm willing to take my chances on winning the whole thing, personally.
-Ekr

: In article <1993Apr29.121501@is.morgan.com>, jlieb@is.morgan.com (Jerry Liebelson) writes...
: > I want to know what weightlessness actually FEELS like. For example, is
: >there a constant sensation of falling? 

Ron Baalke (baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov) replied:
: Yes, weightlessness does feel like falling.  It may feel strange at first,
: but the body does adjust.  The feeling is not too different from that
: of sky diving.

I'm no astronaut, but I've flown in the KC-135 several times.  I'll
tell you about my first flight.

At the on-set of weightlessness, my shoulders lifted and my spine
straightened.  I felt a momentary panic, and my hands tried to grab
onto something (like the strap keeping me firmly against the floor)
to prevent me from falling; I remember conciously over-ruling my
involuntary motions.  My ears felt (not heard) a rush and I could
feel fluid moving in my head (like when you get up from bed while
you have a cold).

At that point, I ceased to concentrate on my physiological response,
since I had some science to do.  I was busy keeping my experiment
going and keeping track of all the parts during the "return" of
gravity and subsequent 1.8-G pull-out, so I didn't really pay
attention to physiology at that time.

After about 5 parabolas, I discovered that I was performing one
of the tricks I've discovered to keep myself from getting motion
sickness; I was keeping my head very still and moving very slowly
-- all except my hands and arms, which needed to be in rapid,
concious motion for my experiment.  During the pull-out to
parabola 5, my queasiness finally started to get to me, and I
had to use one of those air-sickness bags.  I was basically
useless for the rest of that flight, so I went to the seats in
the back of the plane while my partner (whom I drafted for just
this purpose) kept working on the experiment while I was ill.
(He was a vetran Vomit Comet rider, one of those anomalous
people who don't get sick on the thing.)

I didn't think of it as a "constant sensation of falling" so
much as like swimming in air.  It's very close to the sensations
I feel when I'm scuba diving and I turn my head down and fins up.

Jerry:
: >And what is the motion sickness
: >that some astronauts occasionally experience? 

Ron:
: It is the body's reaction to a strange environment.  It appears to be
: induced partly to physical discomfort and part to mental distress.
: Some people are more prone to it than others, like some people are more
: prone to get sick on a roller coaster ride than others.  The mental
: part is usually induced by a lack of clear indication of which way is
: up or down, ie: the Shuttle is normally oriented with its cargo bay
: pointed towards Earth, so the Earth (or ground) is "above" the head of
: the astronauts.  About 50% of the astronauts experience some form of
: motion sickness, and NASA has done numerous tests in space to try to
: see how to keep the number of occurances down.

I'm a volunteer in JSC's Space Biomedical Laboratory where they do,
among other things, some of the tests Ron mentions.  I was in one
called the Pre-flight Adaptation Trainer, which consisted of a chair on
a several-degree-of-freedom motion base with moving geometric visual
aids.  The goal was to measure the victim's^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H subject's
responses and subjective physiological descriptions and see if repeated
exposure to this environment could reduce future motion sickness
symptoms.

Jerry --

I don't know of any former or active-duty astronauts who personally
read this group.  I know that Bruce McCandless's office had been
waiting anxiously for the Space Station Redesign option I posted
last week, but I don't think Bruce reads the group himself.

I commend everybody to look at the FTP site 'ftp.cicb.fr'
-> Ethernet address 129.20.128.2 <-
in the directory /pub/Images/ASTRO:
there are lots of images (all of kinds in astronomy subject)
especially in GIF format and a NEW ! directory of some JPL animations

For your comfort, README files in all subdirectories give size and
description of each image, and a 7 days' newer images' list is in READMENEW

Note: you can connect it as 'anonymous' or 'ftp' user, then the quota
      for each is 8 users connected in the same time.
      So, if the server responds you "connection refused", be patient !

2nd note: this site is reachable by Gopher at 'roland.cicb.fr'
          -> Ethernet address 129.20.128.27 <-
          in 'Divers serveurs Ftp/Le serveur ftp du CRI-CICB/Images/ASTRO'

If you have any comments, suggestions, problems,
then you can contact me at E-mail 'rousself@univ-rennes1.fr'

I am revamping some computer-aided visual inspection systems which
use the old AT&T Targa-16 Board Set (2 cards) to display images from
a color CCD camera to a color monitor, providing the option to overlay
text or a crosshair. No image capture or manipulation is performed, 
just display. I would like to know if there is still a source for 
development libraries which would allow me to embed commands in my
own software to enable the camera, draw crosshairs, print text, etc.
I'll be glad to pay if they are commercially available. E-Mail if
possible.

-- 

----------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Ryburn |  CIM Manager               | Intergraph Corporation
           |  Manufacturing Integration | Huntsville, AL 35894

-| I am taking a course entitled "Exploring Science Using Internet".
-| For our final project, we are to find a compendium of Internet resources 
-| dealing with a science-related topic. I chose Astronomy. Anyway, I was 
-| wondering if anyone out there knew of any interesting resources on Internet
-| that provide information on Astronomy, space, NASA, or anything like that.
-| 
-| THANKS!
-| 
-|   KEITH MALINOWSKI
-|   STK1203@VAX003.Stockton.EDU
-|   P.O. Box 2472
-|   Stockton State College
-|   Pomona, New Jersey 08240

Try doing a keyword search under Gopher using Veronica or accessing a 
World Wide Web server. Also finger yanoff@csd4.csd.uwm.edu for a list
of Internet resources which includes 2-3 sites with Space-specific 
information. I am sure Ron Baalke will have told you about what is
available at JPL etc..

	best regards
		Ata <(|)>.

: >the Single Launch Core Station concept.  A Shuttle external tank and solid
: >rocket boosters would be used  to launch the station into orbit.  Shuttle
: >main engines would be mounted to the tail of the station module for launch
: >and jettisoned after ET separation.

Karl Dishaw (0004244402@mcimail.com) replied:
: Why jettison the SSMEs?  Why not hold on to them and have a shuttle 
: bring them down to use as spares?

One performance reason comes to mind: if you jettison the SSME's, you
don't have to drag them with you when you perform your circularization
burn(s).  On-orbit, SSME's are just dead weight, since we don't have an
SSME H2/O2 pressurization mechanism which works in zero-G.  This means
that you can't use them for re-boost or anything else.  Dead weight has
a couple of advantages, but more disadvantages.

Throw-away SSME's might let us use some of the old SSME's which are not-
quite-man-ratable.  But I doubt we'd do that; the cost of a launch
failure is too high.

The idea of an apostacy did not originate with Lucy Smith or Joseph
Smith or the Mormons.  The idea of a restoration was quite common
in the early 19th century USA.  Alexander Campbell, founder of the
group that now survives with the name "Disciples of Christ" preached
that the primitive church had been lost and was attempting to restore
it (although not be revelations).  Many Cambellites subsequently became
Mormons, including co-founder Sidney Rigdon.  Actually, you can find
such sentiments in many of the early protestants of the reformation,
such as Martin Luther.
-- 

BR>        Since you have referred to the Messiah, I assume you
BR> are referring         to the New Testament.  Please detail
BR> your complaints or e-mail if         you don't want to post.
BR>  First-century Greek is well-known and        
BR> well-understood.  Have you considered Josephus, the Jewish
BR> Historian,         who also wrote of Jesus?  In addition,
BR> the four gospel accounts		 are very much in harmony.

It is also well known that the comments in Josephus relating to Jesus were
inserted (badly) by later editors.  As for the four gospels being in harmony
on the issue of Jesus...  You know not of what you speak.  Here are a few
contradictions starting with the trial and continuing through the assension.

Acts 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of 
iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his 
bowels gushed out."

Matt. 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, 
and departed, and went and hanged himself.  And the chief priests...bought 
with them the potter's field."

Before the cock crow - Matthew 26:34

Before the cock crow twice - Mark 14:30

MAR 14:72  And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind  the 
word  that  Jesus  said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny
me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

MAT 26:74  Then began he to curse and to swear,  saying,  I  know not the man.
And immediately the cock crew.
MAT 26:75  And Peter remembered the word  of  Jesus,  which  said unto him,
Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept
bitterly.

LUK 22:60  And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest.  And immediately,
while he yet spake, the cock crew.
LUK 22:61  And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And  Peter remembered
the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou
shalt deny me thrice.

JOH 13:38  Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? 
Verily,
 verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, still thou hast denied me
thrice.

JOH 18:27  Peter then denied  again:  and  immediately  the  cock crew.

(This is interesting because Matthew quotes a prophesy that was never made! 
Not the only time he does this either...)

MAT 27:9  Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy  the prophet, 
saying,  And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was
valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

zechariah 11:11-13
(nothing in Jeremiah remotely like)

What was the color of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial?

scarlet - Matthew 27:28

purple John 19:2

Mark says the third hour, or 9 a.m., but John says the sixth hour (noon) was
when the sentence was passed.

Matthew  --  This is Jesus the king of the Jews
Mark	 --  The King of the Jews
Luke	 --  This is the king of the Jews
John	 --  Jesus of Nazareth the king of the Jews

vinegar - Matthew 27:34

wine with myrrh - Mark 15:23

Matthew said many stood far off, including Mary Magdaline, Mary the mother of
James, and the mother of Zebedee's children.  Mark and Luke speak of many far
off, and Mark includes Mary Magdeline and Mary the mother of James the less.
John says that Jesus's mother stood at the cross, along with her sister and
Mary Magdalene.

Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, 
saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why
hast thou forsaken me?"  ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice,
yielded u the ghost."

Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto
 thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is 
finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Matthew says that the veil of the temple was rent, that there was an
earthquake, and that it was dark from the sixth to the ninth hour, that graves
opened and bodies of the saints arose and went into Jeruselem, appearing to
many (beating Jesus to the resurection). Mark and Luke speak of darkness and
the veil of the temple being rent but mention no earthquake or risen saints. 
John is the only one who mentions Jesus's side being peirced.

Matthew says the Jews asked Pilate for a guard to prevent the body from being
stolen by the disciples, and for the tomb to be sealed. All of this was
supposedly done, but the other gospels do not mention these precautions.

Depends where you look; Matthew 12:40 gives Jesus prophesying that he will
spend "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth", and Mark 10:34
has "after three days (meta treis emeras) he will rise again". As far as I can
see from a quick look, the prophecies have "after three days", but the
post-resurrection narratives have "on the third day".

Matthew says Sunday at dawn, Mark says the sun was rising, and John says it
was dark.

MAT 28:1  In the end of the sabbath, as it began to  dawn  toward the first
day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1  And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the  mother 
of  James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and
anoint him.

JOH 20:1  The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene  early, when  it 
was  yet  dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the
sepulchre.

MAT 28:2  And, behold, there was  a  great  earthquake:  for  the angel of the
Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door,
and sat upon it.
MAT 28:3  His countenance was like  lightning,  and  his  raiment white as
snow: MAT 28:4  And for fear of him the keepers did shake,  and  became as
dead men. MAT 28:5  And the angel answered and said unto  the  women,  Fear
not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

MAR 16:5  And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a  young  man sitting  on 
the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

LUK 24:4  And it came  to  pass,  as  they  were  much  perplexed thereabout,
behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

JOH 20:12  And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at  the head,  and 
the  other  at  the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

Matthew says the guard was paid to tell this story, but no other gospel makes
this claim.

Matthew says an angel at the tomb told the two Marys and that Jesus also told
them, to tell the disciples to meet him in Galilee.  The disciples then went
to a mountain previously agreed opon, and met Jesus there.  This was his only
appearance, except to the women at the tomb.  Matthew only devotes five verses
to the visit with the disciples.

Mark says that Jesus walked with two of the disciples in the country, and that
they told the rest of the disciples, who refused to believe.  Later he
appeared to the 11 disciples at mealtime.

Luke says two followers went, the same day that Jesus rose from the dead, to
Emmaus, a village eight miles from Jeruselem, and there Jesus jioned them but
was unrecognised.  While they ate a meal together that evening, they finally
recognised Jesus, whereopon he dissapeared.  Returning at once to Jeruselem,
they told the
disciples of their experience, and suddenly Jesus appeared among them,
frightening them, as they thought he was a spirit.  Jesus then ate some fish
and honey and then preached to them.

John says Jesus appeared to the disciples the evening of the day he arrose, in
Jeruselem, where they were hiding.  He breathed the Holy Ghost opon them, but
Thomas was not present and refused to believe. Eight days later Jesus joined
the disciples again at the same place and this time he convinced Thomas.	Once
more Jesus made an
appearance to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias but again was not
recognised.
 After telling them to cast their netson the other side of the boat, Jesus
becomes known to them and prepares bread and fish for them.  They all eat
together and converse.

The book of acts further adds to the confusion.  It says that Jesus showed
himself to the apostles for a period of 40 days after his resurection (thus
contradicting Matthew, Mark, Luke AND John) and spoke to them of things
pertaining to the kingdom of God: "And when he had spoken these things, while
they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud recieved him out of their sight. 
And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, two men stood
by them in white apparel: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye
gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken from you into heaven,
shall so comein like manneras ye have seen him go into heaven" Acts 1:3-11

Paul outdoes every other "authority" by saying that Jesus was seen by 500
persons between the time of the resurection and the
assension, although he does not say where.	He also claims that he himself "as
one born out of due time" also saw Jesus. 1 Cor 15:6-8.

Matthew says nothing about it.	Mark casually says that Jesus was recieved into
heaven after he was finished talking with the
disciples in Jeruselem.  Luke says Jesus led the desciples to Bethany and that
while he blessed them, he was parted from them and carried up into heaven. 
John says nothing about it.  Acts
contradicts all of the above.  (See previous section)

MAT 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all
these things be fulfilled.

MAR 13:30  Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall  not pass, till
all these things be done.

LUK 21:32  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not  pass away, till
all be fulfilled.

1 thessalonians 4:15-18

1 Corinthians 15:5 (12)
Matthew 27:3-5 (minus one from 12)
Acts 1:9-26 (Mathias not elected until after resurrection)
MAT 28:16  Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain
where Jesus had appointed them.

	"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)

	"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, 	...
the Son of Man." (John 3:13)

As you can see, there are a number of contradictions in the account of the
trial, crucifiction and resurection of Jesus.  If these are good witnesses,
you would think that they could get SOME of these important details right! 
(In fact, I cannot find very many points on where they AGREE.  You would think
that they could at least agree on some of the points they were supposedly
observing!) Because of the fact that there is so much contradiction and error,
the story of the resurection as presented cannot be taken as literal truth.
(Due to the nature of the story, I doubt if it should be taken as ANY sort of
truth.)

Commericial support for exploration examples:

Also much if Baranovs exploration and Utilization of Alaska (Russian America,
also included parts of Washington state, Oregon, and N. California) was doen by
private funds (yes some royal governmental funds at times..)..

well it seemed to work for the Mac II installation I was talking about.
Oh yeah there is something I forgot to mention :
even though you're not suppposed to have water around, there IS
 some condenstion d
dripping from the roof of the plane make sure that your hardware is covered.
Make also sure that your keyboards are protected from the two-phase flow
coming out of sick people. It happened to us.....

Good luck.

Why bother with a new newsgroup?  If you want to discuss the subject,
*start discussing it*.  If there is enough traffic to annoy the rest of
us, we will let you know... and *then* it will be time for a new newsgroup.

I've been following this train of talk, and the question of dismissing atoms as  
being in some sense "not real" leaves me uneasy.

It seems to be implied that we obseve only the effects, and therefore the  
underlying thing is not necessarily real.  The tree outside my window is in  
this category... is observe the light which bounces off of it, not the tree  
itself.  The observation is indirect, but no more so than observations I have  
made of atoms.

Also, what about observations and experiments that have been routinely done  
with individual atoms.  I am thinking in particular of atom trapping  
experiments and tests of fundamental quantum mechanics such as the quantum Zeno  
effect, where an individual atom is studied for a long period of time.

Some of the attempts at quantum mechanical arguments were not very satisfying  
either.  One has to be carefull about making such arguments without a solid  
technical background in the field.  What I read seemed a little confused a  
quite a red herring.

Anyway, if the purpose of a public debate is to make the audience think, it  
worked.  After doing so, I'm willing to try to defend the following assertion  
if anyone cares:

No.  Zeno's paradox is resolved by showing that integration or an infinite
series of decreasing terms can sum to a finite result.

Well, suppose a probe emitting radiation at a constant frequency was
sent towards a black hole.  As it got closer to the event horizon, the
red shift would keep increasing.  The period would get longer and longer,
but it would never stop.  An observer would not observe the probe actually
reaching the event horizon.  The detected energy from the probe would keep
decreasing, but it wouldn't vanish.  Exp(-t) never quite reaches zero.

I guess the above probably doesn't make things any more clear, but hopefully
you will get the general idea maybe.

There is a review of 3DO in the latest "wired" magazine.  You may just want
to take a trip to the local bookstore and check it out (there's some cool pics
too).

(I haven't read it yet, or I'd tell you more.. :-)

Posted on behalf of Craig Southeren who does not have access to
a net account:

Can anyone provide me with a colour space transform that would
emulate the effects of red/green colour blindness? I have had
a quick look in the computer graphics literature with no results.
Perhaps someone who has access to medical information could help?

I would like to write a program (probably a PPM filter) to allow
previewing of images to check for sufficient contract for colour
blind users. Not being colour blind myself, this is a bit difficult!

Please email replies - I will summarise and repost if there is
sufficient interest

    Craig

Craig Southeren                      |  "You can have it good, cheap,
Chief Engineer,                      |   or fast. Any two."
Picture Start Productions            |      Arthur C. Clarke
email: c/- geoffw@ucc.su.OZ.AU       | 
phone: +61 2 959 5550                |  "Educate - don't legislate"

No, if you put a conductor in a changing magnetic field, it produces a voltage.
The two ways you can do that with a permanent magnet is to move the magnet or
move the conductor.  The slow shifting of the Earth's magnetic field isn't
really significant, especially when you consider how weak the Earth's magnetic
field is to begin with.

Well, it would require generating an incredibly large magnetic field to repel
the Earth's magnetic field (as a magnet can repel another magnet).  Of course,
this force only works in one direction, and the magnetic field generated has
to be unimaginably powerful.  Magnetic repulsion drops off as 1/r^3, and the
earth's magnetic field on the surface is already very weak.  It would require
some sort of unknown superconductor, and special nonmagnetic construction.
And seriously hardenned electronics (optical computers, perhaps).  And the
physiological danger would be significant (due to the iron content in our
blood, among other things).  In other words, forget it.

I missed out on the "dragless satellite" thread, but it sounds totally bogus,
from this little bit.

Well, it's not that simple -- you're in Earth's magnetic field, and you
don't generate electricity -- but it can be done.

The way you power things is with electricity, so the answer to the first
question is definitely yes.  (If you meant to say "propel" rather than
"power", the answer is "sort of".)  Yes, you can use interaction with the
Earth's magnetic field to get electrical power, and there are potential
applications for this.

However, bear in mind that there is no free lunch.  The energy isn't
coming from nowhere.  What such systems do is convert some of the energy
of your orbital velocity into electrical energy.  There are cases where
this is a useful tradeoff.  Using power obtained in this way for propulsion
is useful only in special situations, however.

What you *can* do is get your power by some other means, e.g. solar arrays,
and run the interaction with the magnetic field in reverse, pumping energy
*into* the orbit rather than taking energy out of it.

If you want more information, trying looking up "electrodynamic propulsion",
"tether applications", and "magsails".

No.  A "dragless" satellite does not magically have no drag; it burns fuel
constantly to fight drag, maintaining the exact orbit it would have *if*
there was no drag.  This is why there are quotes around "dragless".

Prove it.  I am an atheist.  It doesn't mean I am for or against abortion.

An obvious effect of homosexuality is non-procreation.  That, unlike your
statement, is a fact.  Please prove that (a) homosexuality is defended as 
means of population control, (b) being atheist causes you to hold these
beliefs.  I defend homosexuality because (a) what people do with their
bodies is none of my business (b) I defend the equal rights of
all humans.  Do you?

Define values. Prove your statement.

Prove your statement.  Electrons are waves.  Electrons are particles.  I 
believe in both.  I have physical proof of both.  I have no proof of god(tm)
only an ancient book.  That is not indicative of the existence of a being
with omnipotence or omnipresence.  And, by your own argument, christians
don't exist.

First of all, your earlier statements have absolutely nothing to do
with your question.  Why did you post them?  To show that athiests,
besides not existing (your view), are more humane than christians/other
religions?

Secondly I am very much for the control of population growth.

The logic that you cannot grasp indicates ignorance of contraception.
But of course, this is 'outlawed' (sometimes literally) by religion
since if it can't create more followers, it will die.

I

I noticed you post in comp.graphics and know a person with your name.  I was
wondering if you used to live in Paxton Mass.  If so, I have a friend that
would like to say HI.

Sorry for the inconvience if this isn't who I think it is.

Hello Gang,

There have been some notes recently asking where to obtain the DARWIN fish.
This is the same question I have and I have not seen an answer on the
net. If anyone has a contact please post on the net or email me.

Thanks,

	.DXF can not be changed over to .IFF format what it can be changed
to is an object format used by one of the 3D programs on the Amiga. The
only tools around are comercial for that conversion.

fc> Exactly what fraction of current research is done on the big, 
fc> visable light telescopes? From what I've seen, 10% or less 
fc> (down from amlost 100% 25 years ago.) That sounds like "dying"
fc> to me...

 That doesn't seem like a fair comparison.  Infrared astronomy 
 didn't really get started until something like 25 yrs. ago; it
 didn't explode until IRAS in 1983.  Gamma-ray (and I think 
 X-ray) observations didn't really get started until the '70s.
 I believe the same is true of ultraviolet observations in 
 general, and I know that extreme UV (short of 1000 Angstroms)
 observations, until the EUVE (launched last year) had almost 
 no history except a few observations on Skylab in the '70s.

 Twenty-five years ago, the vast majority of astronomers only 
 had access to optical or radio instruments.  Now, with far more
 instruments available, growth in some of these new fields has
 resulted in optical work representing a smaller fraction of 
 total astronomical work.

fc> That would be true, if adaptive optics worked well in the visable.
fc> But take a look at the papers on the subject: They refer to anything
fc> up to 100 microns as "visable". I don't know about you, but most
fc> people have trouble seeing beyond 7 microns or so... There are
fc> reasons to think adaptive optics will not work at shorter 
fc> wavelengths without truely radical improvements in technology.

 Hmm, some of the folks in this department planning on using 
 adaptive optics at the 5 m at Palomar for near-infrared 
 observations (1 and 2 microns) might be surprised to hear this.

 And isn't the NTT already pushing toward 0.1 arcsecond resolution, 
 from a ground-based site (remember 0.1 arcseconds was one of the 
 selling points of HST).

Has someone scanned in an artist's rendering of Aurora?  If so, is the GIF
available somewhere?

Please reply via email.

Thanks,

Craig

The following partial summary of a Theory of the Universe includes a
little-known description of the CREATION of our Solar System:

                      LARSONIAN Astronomy and Physics

          DATUM"). 
      
          BURSTS). 
          
          matter. 

          value. 
    
          other. 
      
          FANTASY). 
    
          stop it! 
    
          B. Larson. 
    
          Diagram. 
    
          light! 
    
                                 GALILEO
                           April 23 - 29, 1993

1.  On April 22 and 23, delta Differenced One-way Range (DOR) passes were
performed over DSS-14/63 (Goldstone/Madrid 70 meter antennas) and DSS-14/43
(Goldstone/Canberra 70 meter antennas), respectively.  Initial results 
indicate the delta DOR pass on April 22 was unsuccessful due to ground
station hardware problems but the one on April 23 was successfully performed.

2.  On April 23, a cruise science Memory Readout (MRO) was performed for the
Magnetometer (MAG) instrument.  Analysis indicates the data was received
properly.

3.  On April 23, the spare power relay contacts were commanded closed via the
spacecraft stored sequence.  These relays were commanded closed by the CDS
(Command Data Subsystem) prior to launch and were again commanded closed to
preclude the possibility at Jupiter of the PPS relays/wiring being a
source of internal electrostatic charge (IESD).

4.  On April 26, cruise science Memory Readouts (MRO) were performed for the
properly.

5.  During the period from April 26 to April 27, a navigation cycle was
performed.  This navigation cycle provided near-continuous acquisition of
two-way doppler and ranging data during three consecutive passes of the
spacecraft over DSS-63, DSS-14, and DSS-43.

6.  On April 26, real-time commands were sent to test slew the Radio Relay
Antenna (RRA) in preparation for the mini-sequence slew test on April 28.
The RRA was slewed from approximately 3.5 degrees from stow to approximately
20.3 degrees.  Preliminary analysis indicated the antenna slewed to about 18
degrees which was well within the predicted range.  The RRA was commanded back
to approximately 15.2 degrees from stow.  Preliminary analysis indicated the
antenna reached about 15.8 degrees also well within the predicted range.  The
RRA motor temperature was at 1 degree C at the start of the activity and had
increased to 1.6 degrees C at its completion.

     After verifying proper RRA slewing, the RRA slew test mini-sequence was
uplinked to the spacecraft for execution on April 28.  Upon successful uplink,
a Delayed Action Command (DAC) was sent which will reposition the stator on
May 4 to its initial pre-test position.  Also, a DAC was sent to turn the
Two-Way Noncoherent (TWNC) on April 28 prior to the start of the RRA slew test
mini-sequence.

7.  On April 27, a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to

8.  On April 28, the RRA slew test executed nominally.  The spacecraft under
stored sequence control performed six RRA slews starting at about 16 degrees
from stow and going to 53 degrees, back to 25 degrees, then to 51 degrees,
back to 22 degrees, then to 48 degrees and then back to 21 degrees.  All of
the slews were well within the predicted range.  The RRA motor temperature was
at 2.3 degrees C at the start of the activity and had increased to 4.4
degrees C at its completion.  After completion of the RRA slews, real-time
commands were sent to reconfigure back to the pre-test configuration.

9.  The AC/DC bus imbalance measurements have not exhibited significant change
(greater than 25 DN) throughout this period.  The AC measurement reads 17 DN
(3.9 volts).  The DC measurement reads 134 DN (15.7 volts).  These

10. The Spacecraft status as of April 29, 1993, is as follows:

       a)  System Power Margin -  75 watts
       d)  Spacecraft Attitude is approximately 23 degrees
           off-sun (lagging) and 4 degrees off-earth (leading)
           Time To Initiation - 203 hours

1.  The first Galileo-GDS test of the MGDS V18.0 Command System (CMD) took
place April 27, 1993 with DSS-61 (Madrid 34 meter antenna).  The test went
well and demonstrated that the new command system interfaced with the new DSN
(Deep Space Network) Group 5 Command Processor Assembly (CPA).  The test was
successful and the next test for V18.0 CMD is scheduled for May 1, 1993 with
DSS-15 (Goldstone 34 meter antenna).

2.  The April System Engineers Monthly Report(SEMR)/Ground System Development
Office (GSDO) MMR was conducted Thursday, April 29.   A review of current
Project and Institutional (DSN and MOSO) system status was conducted.  On-going
cruise development plus the GSDO Phase 1 and 2 delivery schedules, past months
accomplishments  and potential problem areas were discussed.  No significant
schedule changes or significant problems were reported.

     As of noon Thursday, April 29, 1993, the Galileo Spacecraft trajectory

	Distance from Earth         187,745,300 km (1.26 AU)
	Distance from Sun           296,335,800 km (1.98 AU)
	Heliocentric Speed          89,100 km per hour
	Distance from Jupiter       522,015,800 km
	Round Trip Light Time       20 minutes, 58 seconds

Sorry, but yes he does, by your own description.

Humorous, this notion of an all-knowing, all-powerful god who must
"attempt" to "reconcile" with his lowly creations.  I realize that it
is not possible to penetrate such logic, but is there any chance that
you might consider that an omnipotent god need not "attempt" anything,
and further that an attempt to "reconcile" implies a lack of
omniscience?

What you are doing here is projecting human weaknesses onto your god.

But all humans are sinners, thus all pre-Jesus humans should have been
punished with death.  We aren't punished with sin now, of course,
because God has changed.  He required a brutal, sadistic sacrifice of
his own blood in order to allow us to sin without immediate death.  

Yet he does so now.  He has changed.  The sadistic murder of his own
son has made him more tolerant of our sins.

Besides, his "midst" is everywhere, so your statement is meaningless.
He tolerates sin in Hell, which surely is in his midst as well.  Also,
given that he is all-knowing, he must have eternal knowledge of who
will commit which sins, as well as when and where, so what does
tolerance have to do with anything.  All of this is absolute nonsense,
unless your god is not indeed all-knowing and all-powerful, or unless
he doesn't take the personal interest in everyday affairs that you
claim.

Not relevant.  The claim of kindness and lovingness was made by you in
reference to your god.  The nature of his creations/victims is not at
issue.

I see: an all-knowing god who did not know what the ultimate outcome
would be, and an all-powerful god who had no choice in the matter.
Mindmush.

Did I miss something?  Did you give some indication at to why a KIND
and LOVING god should require sadistic human sacrifice to allow his
own botched creations to "achieve salvation"?

I note that your answer physically follows my question, but I fail to
discern a connection between the two.

By the way, for what am I being consoled?

Why not?  By the way, I note for the record that you didn't answer the

Death and/or eternal damnation is your idea of correctional
punishment?  I hope you aren't a parent.

This is quite an elaborate fantasy that you've constructed, but sadly
it lacks a basis in reality.  It also does not address the questions
that I raised.

The god that you describe is not a good parent, but a tyrant.

Sorry, was that the god of the Bible whose rules I am to follow, or
the god of the Koran?  The Vedas?  The Book of Koresh?  Oh, yes, it's
all so clear.

I was wondering if somebody knows of a PD program for converting
any graphic formats such as fig, pic, unixplot, tek, etc. to
gremlin. Thanks,

: >Atoms are not objective.  They aren't even real.  What scientists call
: >an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes 
: >certain physical, observable properties of our surroundings.  All
: >of which is subjective.  
: >
: >-jim halat

: This deserves framing.  It really does.  "[Atoms] aren't even real."

: Tell me then, those atoms we have seen with electron microscopes are
: atoms now, so what are they?  Figments of our imaginations?  The
: evidence that atoms are real is overwhelming, but I won't bother with
: most evidence at the moment.

You would have us believe that what the eye perceives as images are
actaully there - as perceived? This may be interesting. I thought
that an electron microscope was used because no wavelength of "light"
can illuminate any "object" of atomic scale. If this image is to have
useful resolution, wouldn't the illuminating sources wavelength have
to be several orders of magnitude less than size of thing observed?

If an atom is a "probablity cloud", lower resolutions would give the
appearance of solidity, but it seems fairly certain that an atom is
not an object is any conventional sense. Obviously I am not a
physicist, but the question does have ramification of a philosophic
nature. Anyway, just a stray thought, carry on ...

I've done all those things, and I've regretted it, and I learned 
a lesson or two. So far an aspirin, a good talk with your wife,
or a one week vacation has cured me -- no need for group therapy
or strange religions!

Cheers,
Kent

	Actually, for digital HDTV systems that's far higher bandwidth than
you need, unless there's some reason you must work in fully-uncompressed
HDTV.  Also, my calculations is that each frame should be well under 6MB,
even using 24 bits/pixel (which is more bits than you actually need - 15 or
18 should be enough for a moving picture).  1600x1100x16bits is 3.5MB (I'm
guessing at HDTV resolution - it may be a bit wider than 1600, I'm fairly
sure of the 1100 number for most of the digital proposals).

	I hope you have a very fast memory system as well - 180MB/s while
displaying will require a heavily interleaved VRAM system.

	Unless you have a _very_ compelling reason, I'd advise trying to use
at least somewhat compressed data.  You don't have to go to full compression
to get to a level where the data IO requirements are much cheaper and easier
to deal with.

-- 
GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
 - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch

     Well, almost. It turns out that clever orbital mechanics can 
engineer things so that resonant interactions with the higher order 
harmonics of the Earth's gravitational field can pump energy into a 
satellite, and keep it from experiencing drag effects for periods of 
months to years. 

     My favorite example of this is the Soviet/Russian heavy ELINT 
satellites of the Cosmos 1603 class, which are in 14:1 resonance. In 
particular, C1833 has undergone two periods of prolonged *gain* in 
altitude, the current one having started in June 1991; the mean altitude 
of the satellite is now as high as it has ever been since launch on 18 
March 1987. (Looking at the elements for C1833 also shows the 
limitations of NORAD's software -- but that's another story.) 

    This probably has little relevance to space stations, since the 71 
degree orbits of the C1603 satellites are at 850 km, which is 
unacceptably far into the inner van Allen belt for manned platforms. But 
it's kind of interesting from the point of view of the physics of the 
situation. 

    (Orbital elements for these satellites are available on request.) 

Allen Thomson                  SAIC                       McLean, VA

I know this has been asked a million time, but..

What was the ftp site carrying 30-40 .ZIPs of full POV "source" files,
including JACK.ZIP and KETTLE.ZIP? I've once been there but
unfortunately lost the address.
I'm in a little hurry with it, so please e-mail me at
jtheinon@kruuna.helsinki.fi. Thanks..

You mean Bobby Mozumder is a myth?    We wondered about that.

You mean Bobby Mozumder didn't really post here?   We wondered
about that, too.

So, Mr Conner.   Is Bobby Mozumder a myth, a performing artist, 
a real Moslem. a crackpot, a provocateur?    You know everything
and read all minds: why don't you tell us?

Gee, since you ignored the entire substance of my substantial
post, you got a lot of nerve claiming that I don't understand
what's being talked about.

Respond to the previous post or shut the fuck up.  You're
really annoying.

-- 

Obviously not.  Count rates are too low and signal rise times too long
for this to be possible.  The CGRO, is, what, 10 meters long?  You'd
need to time to an accuracy of nanoseconds to do this.

What BATSE actually does is measure the relative strength in each of
the detectors (also as a function of photon energy).  Each of the
detectors does not have isotropic response.  To do this right one must
model the scattering of photons in the material around each detector,
and even scattering of photons off the Earth's atmosphere back onto
the spacecraft.  I believe they have now reduced the error to about 2
degrees.

We are looking for GL source code, which was developed by Silicon Graphics (SGI).
We would like to compile it on Sun and HP 9000/700s. If there is anyone already
supporting GL on HP and Sun, please respond.
Also please respond if anyone knows where the source code is available.

Thank you

I believe many people will be happy to have this information.   So, 
please post it to the comp.graphics.

From _Free Inquiry_, Winter 83/84,  the following is an
introduction to the article "Joseph Smith and the Book of
Mormon", by George D. Smith.  The introduction is written by
Paul Kurtz. 

	Mormonism -- the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
	-- claims a worldwide membership 5.2 million.  It is one of
	the world's fastest growing religions, with as many as
	200,000 new converst in 1982 alone.  Because of the church's
	aggressive missionary program, covering more than one
	hundred countries, it is spreading even to third world
	countries.
	
	Mormonism is both puritanical in moral outlook and
	evangelical in preachment.  The church is run along strict
	authoritarian lines.  Led by a president, who allegedly
	receives revelations directly form God, and a group of
	twelve apostles who attempt to maintain orthodoxy in belief
	and practice, the church is opposed to abortion,
	pornography, sexual freedom, women's rights, and other, in
	its view, immoral influences of secular society, and it
	forbids the use of tobacco, alcohol, coffee, and tea.
	
	Centered in Salt Lake City, the church is extremely wealthy
	and politically powerful in Utal and many other western
	states.  Among well-know present-day Mormons are Ezra Taft
	Benson (former secretary of agriculture), the Osmond family,
	the Mariotts of the hotel empire, and a score of high-placed
	government officials.
	
	The Mormon church was founded in western New York in 1830 by
	Joseph Smith who claimed that by divine revelation be had
	found gold plates containing hieroglyphics buried on a hill
	and that with the help of visits from the angel Moroni he
	had been able to translate the writing into the _Book of
	Mormon_, the basis of Mormon belief.  This book, written "by
	the commandment of God," claims that the ancient Hebrews
	settled in America about 600 B.C.E. and were the ancestors
	of the American Indians.  Mormons believe that those who
	have been baptized in the "true church" will be reunited
	after death and that deceased non-Mormon family members can
	be baptized by proxy and thus join their relatives in the
	hereafter.  Because of these beliefs, Mormons have been
	considered outcasts by mainline Christian denominations and
	as heretics by religious fundamentalists.
	
	Joseph Smith was a controversial figure in his day -- he was
	both worshiped as a saint and denounced as a fraud.  Because
	of persecution he led his band of loyal followers from
	Palmyra, New York, westward to Ohio and then to Illinois,
	where in 1844 he was shot to death by an agry mob.  Brigham
	Young, who reportedly had as many as eighty wives, took over
	the leadership of the church and led the Mormons further
	westward, to found the new Zion in Salt Lake City. 
	Following the teachings of Joseph Smith in the practice of
	polygamy was perhaps the Mormons most controversial practice
	in nineteenth-century America.
	
	While other religions go back many centuries --
	Muhammadanism, 1200 years; Christianity, 2000; and Judaism,
	3000 -- and attempts to examine their beginnings are
	difficult, extensive historical investigation of Mormon
	roots is possible.  Some Mormons are willing to examine this
	history objectively, bu others maintain that such scrutiny
	is dangerous to the faith.
	
	In the following pages, _Free Inquiry_ presents two articles
	about the Mormon church.  First, George D. Smith, a lifelong
	member of the church, provides a detailed critical
	examination of Joseph Smith and his claim the the _Book of
	Mormon_ was divinely revealed.  Second, we present a portion
	of an interview with philosopher Sterling McMurrin, also a
	Mormon since birth, who questions the treatment of the
	history of the church by Mormon authorities. -- Paul Kurtz
	
The article itself is super.

What?  Absolutely not.  No way.  Asimov was a lifelong atheist, and
said so many times, right until his death.  Judging from the many
stories he told about his own life, he felt culturally closest to
Judaism, which makes sense. He was born Jewish.

The SEI. Software Engineering Institute, a DoD funded part of Carnegie Mellon
University.  You can read about part of it in Ed Yourdon's The Decline and
Fall of the American Programmer (Yourdon Press).

Just passing thru.....

Hans> As somebody replied on whether the space shuttle is connected to
Hans> Usenet: "No. Of course the main flow of information would be up,
Hans> unless Henry Spencer would be aboard, in which case the main
Hans> flow of information would be down."

Gene Miya says that Henry will never go aloft in the Shuttle; the
payload bay isn't big enough for his chocolate chip cookies.

When Henry was here at Dryden, he was looking pretty covetously at the
SR-71s and the F-104s, even though they don't have much cookie space.
I guess he figured that he could manage for a short flight....

   Brian, it doesn't offend me if you decide to reject Jesus
   Christ.  I only wish you would make that decision after you
   learn who Jesus is.

Thank you.  I now know at least that though I may be on drugs, at
least I'm not the only one.

Yes, this took some getting used to -- of course not having an Indian
connection, no knowledge of hindi, etc., this was not trivial for me.
I did have, thanks to the wonders of the net, "A Glossary to *Satanic
Verses*", posted to rec.arts.books by Vijay Raghavan, which explains a
lot of the Indian English constructions, Indian culture references,
even the Islamic references ("Jahilia", "Submission", the context of
the Satanic Verses incident, etc.) -- what I have only covers the
first couple of hundred pages, but it helped me get into the flow of
the novel [I can mail this to anyone interested; if anyone has
portions after part I, if they exist, I'd like to get those].

Does anyone know of a program for the PC that
will take AutoCad DXF format files and convert
them to a raster format, like PCX, GIF, etc?
Thanks in advance....
				ED

   Is English (American, Canadian, etc.) common law recognized as
legally binding under international law?  After all, we're talking about
something that by its very nature isn't limited to the territory of one
nation.

  First, I don't expect them to love me if they don't even know I
  exist.  Secondly, I wouldn't expect them to love me simply because
  they were my creator.  I would expect to have to earn that love.

  Are you daft?  How do I love something I don't believe exists?
  Come back when you've learned to love your third testicle.

  At which point you have stepped over the line and become a
  complete asshole.  Even though it's your first offense, I won't
  let it slip becuase I've heard it too goddamned many times.

  You love Jesus because deep in your heart you're a cannibalistic
  necrophiliac.  Because I say so, and I'm much more qualified to
  assess your motivations than you are.

  Fortunately, there are some things I get to accept on evidence
  rather than faith.  One of them being that until christians like
  yourself quit being so fucking arrogant, there will never be
  peace.  You've all made sure of that.

Simple !!  Look for VESA drivers in VPIC 6.0e package !!
Many SVGA card supported. Look for it on your favorite BBS.

--
Not tonight honey, i just received my Nuvotel :-]

In the King James Version of the Bible there are three differents words 
translated into the word "hell".  These Greek words have totally different 
meanings.  The words are Hades, Tartaros, and Gehenna.

    In bibical usage, the Greek word Hades is used only 11 times in the 
New Testament, and is roughly the equivalent to the Old Testament word Sheol...
meaning the grave or pit (compare Acts 2:27 with Psalms 16:10).  Hades may be 
likened to a hole in the ground. (In the Bible it has nothing to do with fire!)

    Most modern bibical translators admit that the use in the English word hell
to translate Hades and Sheol are an unfortunate and misleading practice.  

    Why?  Because when seeing the word "hell" many readers impute to it the 
traditional connotation of an ever-burning inferno, when this was never 
remotely intended in the Greek language or in Old English!

    In its true bibical usage Hades does indeed refer to the state or abode of 
the dead, but not in the sense of spirits walking around in some sort of 
"shadowy realm."  Hades is simply the abode we call the grave.  All dead go to 
this hell.

    The second "hell" of the Bible, Tartaros, is mentioned only once in 
scripture, 2 Pet.2:4; "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast 
them down to hell (TARTAROS), and delivered them into chains of darkness to be 
reserved unto judgment..."

    Following their rebellion to unseat God from His throne (Isa.14:12-14; 
Rev.12:4), the archangel Lucifer (now Satan) and a third of the created angels 
(now demons) were ejected from heaven (Luke 10:18).  They were cast down to 
Tartaros, a place or condition of restraint that God has imposed on the 
mutinous angels as they await ultimate judgment (Jude 6; 1 Cor.6:3).

    Tartaros, then, is a "hell" that applies only to evil, rebellious angels or
demons (It is interesting that the ancient Greeks used this word to describe 
the place in which Zeus confined the rebellious Titans).  Nowhere in the Bible 
is there any mention of men being put into this particular "hell".

    The the third word that is translated as "hell" in the Bible is Gehenna. It
comes from the Hebrew GAI HINNOM, meaning "valley of Hinniom."  Hinnom is a 
deep, narrow ravine located to the south and southwest of Jerusalem.

    In Old Testament times it was a place of abominable pagan rites, including 
infant sacrifice (It was there that the apostate kings Ahaz and Manasseh made 
their children "pass through the fire" to the god Molech.  The rites were 
specifically celebrated in Tophet, the "place of abhorrence," one of the chief 
groves in the valley).

    King Josiah of ancient Judah finally put an end to these abominations.  He 
defiled the valley, rendering it ceremonially unclean (2 Kings 23:10).  Later 
the valley became the cesspool and city dump of Jerusalem; a repository for 
sewage, refuse and animal carcasses.  The bodies of dispised criminals were 
also burned there along with the rubbish.  Fires burned continuously, feeding 
by a constant supply of garbage and refuse.

    Aceldama, the "field of blood", purchased with the money Judas received for
the betrayal of Christ (Matt.27:8) was also in part of the valley of Hinnom.

    So what does this valley called Gehenna have to do with hell?  

    In Rev.19:20: the Satan inspired political dictator and a miracle-working 
religious figure, the False Prophet, working with him will resist the 
re-establishment of the government of God by Jesus Christ at His Second Coming.
Their fate is revealed by the apostle John: "And the beast was taken, and with 
him the false prophet...  These both were cast alive into a lake of fire 
burning with brimstone."
    
    Where will this temporary lake of fire (this "hell") be?

    The prophet Isaiah wrote of this lake of fire prepared for the Beast: "For 
Tophet (in the valley of Hinnom) is ordained of old, yea for the king it is 
prepared, he hath made it deep and large, the pile thereof is fire and wood, 
the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it" (Isa.30:33).

    One thousand years later, Satan himself will be cast into this rekindled 
fiery lake where the Beast and False Prophet were cast! (Rev.20:10).

    But what of the wicked who have died over the millennia?  Does the Bible 
say that they are now suffering fiery punishment for their sins in a lake of 
fire?

    In the sequence of Rev.20 the incorrigibly wicked are resurrected to be 
thrown into the lake of fire after Satan is cast there! (Rev.20:15). What will 
become of these wicked?  Will they writhe in flames for eternity? 
 
    The wicked will be burned up from the intense heat of the coming Gehenna 
fire on the earth.  They wil be consumed, annihilated, destroyed!  This 
punishment will be everlasting (permanent and final).  The Bible calls it the 
"second death" (Rev.20:14; 21:8), from which there is no possibility of a 
further resurrection.

    The Bible does teach eternal punishment, but not eternal punishing.
                           
    The prophet Malachi provides a graphic description. "For, behold, the day 
cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do 
wickedly, shall be stubble, and the day that cometh shall burn them up..."
(4:1).  To the righteous, God says that the wicked shall be "ashes under the 
soles of your feet..."(Mal.4:3).

    Gehenna was a place of destruction and death, not a place of living 
torture!  Jesus was talking to Jews who understood all about this Gehenna or 
valley of Hinnom.  Utter destruction by fire was complete.  Nothing was left, 
but ashes!
 
    Every text in the Bible translated from this Greek word Gehenna means 
complete destruction, not living torture (not eternal life in torment)!  The 
Bible says, in Romans 6:23, "The wages of sin is death", not eternal life in 
torture.  The punishment revealed in the Bible is Death... the cessation of 
life. 

Probably not! The jesus freak's post is probably JSN104@PSUVM. Penn State
is just loaded to the hilt with bible bangers. I use to go there *vomit* and
it was the reason I left. They even had a group try to stop playing 
rock music in the dining halls one year cuz they deemed it satanic. Kampus
Krusade for Khrist people run the damn place for the most part....except
the Liberal Arts departments...they are the safe havens.
-wdb

Russell Turpin, as is his wont, has raised some interesting issues 
in his struggle with the Christian texts and the Christians. 
Unfortunately, he seems to be hoping for simplicity where it is 
not available. The lukewarm stew he detects may well be an inevitable 
result of the divine mixing himself up with a bunch of losers such 
as humanity. 

Also unfortunately (perhaps) I have a deadline in two weeks, the 
responsibility for which prevents me, in good conscience, 
from writing a more considered response and fully entering the
fray, as it were. 

Let me then say what I can, briefly.

-----

This point, for the net.browsers who also still read books, is
pursued throughly in Kaufmann, Critique_of_Religion_and_Philosophy.

This is a theological statement worthy of Barth.
Dr Turpin (DD) may wear the black robe of Geneva yet! :-)

This requires the assumption that all interpretations are
equally valid, that there is no way of reasonably distinguishing
among them. I wouldn't make that assumption; I don't think it is
a reasonable assumption. 

Michael, and I, and others, read 'the Bible' with Christian
glasses. Among the things that this should imply is that the
NT informs the OT, even to the point of dominanting it. Some
points in the OT (ceremonial & dietary laws) are explicitly 
abrogated by the NT texts. To drive Russell Turpin's point with
adequacy, one needs to begin with NT texts (probably from Matthew,
and probably about damnation) (Just trying to help :-) )

This part is, I discover, what most moves me to post:

mls> I am a "radical" Christian *only* in that I take the gospel seriously.

Russell Turpin's 'No' here is misplaced, not to say inappropriate.
Michael's self-description much govern.  The equation of radical = liberal, 
which seems implied by Russell Turpin  is wrong.  Radical conservatives are 
possible (if sadly lacking in numbers at present). Thomas Merton
was a radical, even though conservative in some ways. St Francis
was a radical, similarly. How many examples are needed?

mls> ... Why don't I and the (myriads of) other Christians like me
mls> tell you something about Christianity? ...

Michael's question gets to a heart of the matter (Klingons have
two hearts, so my metaphor is not mixed, just extraterrestrial :-) )
Russell Turpin (in an earlier post) had said that Michael (Michael's
theological positions, actually) didn't tell him much about Christianity;
Dean Simeon responds (this time gently): 'What do you mean?' More
direct, perhaps, would have been: 'What could you possibly mean?'
The implied rhetorical effort, to separate Michael from the 
tradition, is a failure. Michael is in the tradition. If your idea
of the tradition doesn't include him, Change your idea of the tradition!

How can one answer this while staying on the more general issue?
I'm on the other side of the interpretive fence (from Michael)
on this issue, yet '*nothing*' is a hideous overstatement.

One verse is enough to refute it; I'll offer two, from
Paul (of all people):

'In Jesus Christ there is neither male nor female...'(Galatians 3:28
{I don't quote single verses as a rule, and I don't carry 
them in my head}) and '*Nothing* shall separate us from the glory of God...' 
(roughly, from Romans). [If Russell would promise to convert based
on these or any other verses,  I'd promise to get the full context
for any that he requires :-) :-)]

This conclusion does not follow, even in short, from the
argument that goes before. A surprising logical ellipsis.

Dave Davis, ddavis@ma30.bull.com
These are my opinions & activities alone

QOTD:

: In article <1993May12.193454.29823@hal.com>, bobp@hal.com (Bob Pendleton) writes...
: >From article <1993May7.235404.22590@pony.Ingres.COM>, by mwmeyer@Ingres.COM (Mike (wading through the muck and) Meyer):
: >>    This is getting pretty silly. First off, "Hacker" is an obsolete term.
: >>    Doesn't matter what it used to mean, today it means "thief."
: >> 
: >> It only means "thief" if you want it to mean that.  To me, it means

:   [Lots of context wickedly omitted by myself :-) ]
: > 
: >Anyway, if I say "Joe is a hacker" to most english speaking people who
: >know the word they'll probably think he is either a poor golfer or a
: >bad carpenter. But there are very very few people who will think he is
: >a good and clever programmer. :-)
: > 
: >If you chose to call yourself by a term that means "thief" don't be
: >surprised when people think you are a thief. Even if you don't agree
: >with that definition of the word.
:       ^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^ 
:  [....] The narrower view that a hacker, when
:  associated with the computing environment, is a dishonest
:  expert is not so widespread, I'm my opinion, at least with the
:  people involved with the field. IMHO the wider meaning is not
:  obsolete at all, no matter how much the lay press would like it to
:  be!  [....]

:  Therefore I conclude that if you call yourself a hacker, and somebody
:  perceives you as a thief, then this person belongs to a very very
:  small group that has some computer knowledge, but not enough to know
:  the wider (and original) meaning of the word.  [....]

Unfortunately, the general public has a very narrow view of the deep, dark
recesses of the art of computing.  What little they do see is from the view
given to them by the media.  From what I have seen from the media, 'hacker'
is not a proper way by which to refer to a respected person.

I, on the other hand, know what 'hacker' means from those who consider
themselves such.  Following is the definition from "Jargon File 2.9.10".
(This is also known as the "Hackers Dictionary".)  The definitions are
arranged in order of decreasing frequency of usage:

   :hacker: [originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe] n.
     1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable
     systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most
     users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary.  2. One who
     programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys
     programming rather than just theorizing about programming.  3. A
     person capable of appreciating {hack value}.  4. A person who is
     good at programming quickly.  5. An expert at a particular program,
     or one who frequently does work using it or on it; as in 'a UNIX
     hacker'.  (Definitions 1 through 5 are correlated, and people who
     fit them congregate.)  6. An expert or enthusiast of any kind.  One
     might be an astronomy hacker, for example.  7. One who enjoys the
     intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing
     limitations.  8. [deprecated] A malicious meddler who tries to
     discover sensitive information by poking around.  Hence 'password
     hacker', 'network hacker'.  See {cracker}.

     The term 'hacker' also tends to connote membership in the global
     community defined by the net (see {network, the} and
     {Internet address}).  It also implies that the person described
     is seen to subscribe to some version of the hacker ehic (see
     {hacker ethic, the}).

     It is better to be described as a hacker by others than to describe
     oneself that way.  Hackers consider themselves something of an
     elite (a meritocracy based on ability), though one to which new
     members are gladly welcome.  There is thus a certain ego
     satisfaction to be had in identifying yourself as a hacker (but if
     you claim to be one and are not, you'll quickly be labeled
     {bogus}).  See also {wannabee}.

   :hacker ethic, the: n.  1. The belief that information-sharing
     is a powerful positive good, and that it is an ethical duty of
     hackers to share their expertise by writing free software and
     facilitating access to information and to computing resources
     wherever possible.  2. The belief that system-cracking for fun
     and exploration is ethically OK as long as the cracker commits
     no theft, vandalism, or breach of confidentiality.

     Both of these normative ethical principles are widely, but by no
     means universally) accepted among hackers. Most hackers subscribe
     to the hacker ethic in sense 1, and many act on it by writing and
     giving away free software.  A few go further and assert that
     *all* information should be free and *any* proprietary
     control of it is bad; this is the philosophy behind the {GNU}
     project.

     Sense 2 is more controversial: some people consider the act of
     cracking itself to be unethical, like breaking and entering.
     But this principle at least moderates the behavior of people who
     see themselves as `benign' crackers (see also {samurai}).  On
     this view, it is one of the highest forms of hackerly courtesy
     to (a) break into a system, and then (b) explain to the sysop,
     preferably by email from a {superuser} account, exactly how it
     was done and how the hole can be plugged --- acting as an
     unpaid (an unsolicited) {tiger team}.

     The most reliable manifestation of either version of the hacker
     ethic is that almost all hackers are actively willing to share
     technical tricks, software, and (where possible) computing
     resources with other hackers.  Huge cooperative networks such as
     {USENET}, {Fidonet} and Internet (see {Internet address})
     can function without central control because of this trait; they
     both rely on and reinforce a sense of community that may be
     hackerdom's most valuable intangible asset.

:  Finally, a true hacker does not name himself/herself one, for this is
:  a title that is bestowed by the befuddled sysadmins and users at large.
: To me, a sign of a truly great hacker is to be introduced to someone who
: says "Nahh, I just know a thing or two, people always exagerate..." :-)

Note that the above definition does not preclude a hacker from describing
limself (meaning: himself/herself) one, but simply says that it is better
not to do so.  There are many who do not know the meaning of 'hacker'.  So,
in order to defend the true meaning of the word, it is sometimes necessary
to borrow on the reputation of a known (respected) hacker around the
workplace.  (This means that 'hacker' is defined in terms of some well-known
and respected person.)  Sometimes, there may only be one such person.

: >No matter what Mr. Dumpty says, language doesn't work that way.
:  Actually it does, you just have to get adequate press coverage... :-)

Language works anyway that we want it to work.  The purpose of language is
to communicate.  To oversimplify: As long as communication is taking place,
then language is working.

IMO, the influence of Stalin, or for that matter, Ayn Rand, invalidates your 
assumption that theism is the factor to be considered.  Gullibility, 
blind obedience to authority, lack of scepticism, and so on, are all more 
reliable indicators.  And the really dangerous people - the sources of
fanaticism - are often none of these things.  They are cynical manipulators
of the gullible, who know precisely what they are doing.  Now, *some*
brands of theism, and more precisely *some* theists, do tend to fanaticism,
I grant you.  To tar all theists with this brush is bigotry, not a reasoned
argument - and it reads to me like a warm-up for censorship and restriction
of religious freedom.  Ever read Animal Farm?

Well, there is a glaring paradox here:  an argument that reason is useful
based on reason would be circular, and argument not based on reason would
be irrational.  Which is it?

The first part of the second statement contains no information, because
you don't say what "the beliefs" are.  If "the beliefs" are strong theism 
and/or strong atheism, then your statement is not in general true.  The
second part of your sentence is patently false - counterexample: an
axiomatic datum does not lend itself to rational analysis, but is
assumed to contain reliable information regardless of what process is
used to obtain it.

I can't agree with this until you are specific - *which* theism?  To
say that all theism is necessarily antirational requires a proof which
I suspect you do not have.

I don't understand this.  Can you formalise your argument?

If you're doing large-scale satellite servicing, being able to do it in
a pressurized hangar makes considerable sense.  The question is whether
anyone is going to be doing large-scale satellite servicing in the near
future, to the point of justifying development of such a thing.

You'd almost certainly use air.  Given that you have to pressurize with
*something*, safety considerations strongly suggest making it breathable
(even if the servicing crew is using oxygen masks for normal breathing,
to avoid needing a ventilation system, it's nice if the hangar atmosphere
is breathable in a pinch -- it makes mask functioning much less critical).

I opened the file with a text editor and it looks like:

^Vnetwork storyboardpictPICT8BIM^E^......

I have already tried BinHex which does not seem to work. 
Any other ideas?

-- 

Appsoft Image is available for NeXTStep. It is a image processing program
similar to Adobe Photoshop. It is reviewed in the April '93 issue of
Publish! Magazine.

TO: rych@festival.ed.ac.uk (R Hawkes)

RH>I've noticed that if you only save a model (with all your mapping planes
RH>positioned carefully) to a .3DS file that when you reload it after restarting
RH>3DS, they are given a default position and orientation.  But if you save
RH>to a .PRJ file their positions/orientation are preserved.  Does anyone
RH>know why this information is not stored in the .3DS file?  Nothing is

    This is because the PRJ (Project) format saves all of your settings,
    right down to the last render file's name.

RH>I'd like to be able to read the texture rule information, does anyone have
RH>the format for the .PRJ file?

    Sorry... Don't have anything on that or the CEL format.

fc> Modern, 
fc> ground-based, visible light astronomy (what these proposed
fc> orbiting billboards would upset) is already a dying field: The
fc> opacity and distortions caused by the atmosphere itself have
fc> driven most of the field to use radio, far infrared or space-based
fc> telescopes. 

 Here's one radio astronomer quite concerned about 
 radio-frequency interference from portable telephones, etc.

I read an article about a poll done of students at the Ivy League
schools in which it was reported that a third of the students
indentified themselves as atheists.  This is a lot higher than among the
general population.  I wonder what the reasons for this discrepancy are?
Is it because they are more intelligent?  Younger?  Is this the wave of
the future?

[some big deletions]
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                

Another in a string of idiotic generalizations.  Gad, I'm surprised I got 
this far down in the post.  I guess some just like seeing their names up on 
a CRT.  

Like me :-)

Are you guys talking about the Soviet "shuttle"?  It's not "Soyuz",
it's called "Buran" which means "snow storm."

(At least that's what they call it on Russian TV).

Due to a number of bugs in GKS4.1 under SUNOS 4.1.3, I installed
patches 100533-15 and 100755-01. Patch 100533-15 appears to
work fine and has fixed a number of problems. Patch 100755-01,
however, which is required to fix a number of other annoying
bugs, breaks with our applications.

Is there a more recent revision of patch 10075?

If you would like to understand better the sort of behavior
that we saw in connection with the Waco tragedy, I'd strongly
recommend reading _When Prophecy Fails_, by Leon Festinger,
Henry Riecken, and Stanley Schachter (available as a Harper
Torchbook). It goes a long way towards explaining how a 
belief system can be so strong as to withstand even overwhelming
disconfirmatory evidence. At least, read the first chapter.
Interestingly, just as the Branch Davidians had roots in the
Seventh-Day Adventist movement, the SDAs themselves had their
roots in the Millerite movement of the first half of the 19th
century--a movement that expected the end of the world in 1843,
was disappointed when it did not take place, and wound up as
a church.

Bill

Correction.  I think it was 1978.  Also, contrary to earlier belief, it
is now widely accepted that not all committed suicide, but were actually
killed.  In the end, they did die for a lie, but some not out of
conviction alone.  Thought I try to make this point clear.
-- 

No, no, no!  The previous one was called "Smiley".  1992 QB1 = Smiley,
and 1993 FW = Karla.

Note that neither name is official.  It seems the discoverers have an
aversion to the designation scheme.

Brian, does all this mean that you have to be well versed in ancient
Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic in order to understand the core of
Christianity? I hope you are not Catholic, because my Christian
upbringing was based on the teachings of Luther, and the one of
the core messages was basically that you don't need to know latin
in order to learn about salvation.

BTW, your statement would also eliminate about 99.5% of all the Christians
in the world, as well.

Cheers,
Kent

kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) Pontificated: 

Is this from the Quran (or however it's spelled)?

I hate to belabor the obvious once again, but if there had been an Orbiter
emergency in the early stages of the original HST deployment mission, they
would have HAD to land with HST in the bay. 

Indeed they were worried about that.  One concern was the possibility that
they would lose a motor or something on the way up, and make orbit but one
that was too low to give HST a useful lifetime against atmospheric drag.  
I believe the decision was to deploy HST even if the projected lifetime was
as short as six months.  In fact we got an excellent orbit, on the upper
envelope of what the Shuttle can do.

I have never heard of any serious consideration that HST might be brought 
down for refurbishment.  You would have the horrendous cost of transporting,
cleaning, re-testing, and re-certifying all the hardware on the ground, in
addition to the lost observing time and the cost of a second deployment 
mission with the risks that we might not get such a good orbit the second 
time.  And, you would probably STILL need a (third) servicing mission in a 
few years as gyros and other components wear out.  Better to have two 
servicing missions in space (which could well happen) than to bring HST down 
and take it up again.

}It is so simple.... I'm surprised that this subject gets
}beat to death about once a month. A quick glance in a dictionary
}would clear up 99% of the confusion and bandwidth in this
}newsgroup.

Reading Stephen Jay Gould's essay "Evolution as Fact and Theory" wouldn't
hurt, either.  It appears in _Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes_.

}            Then we could talk about really important things
}like, why do men have nipples?

See Gould's "Male Nipples and Clitoral Ripples" in _Bully for Brontosaurus_.

Gee, this is easy.

From article <1suntv$3km@watson.mtsu.edu>, by csjohn@watson.mtsu.edu (John Wallace):

The GL file is an archive containing individual frames or pieces of
frames (usually stored as .PIC or .CLP files), fonts, and a .TXT file
that tells the GRASP animation system how to display it.  GL stands
for Grasp Library.  There is probably a detailed discussion of this subject
in the alt.binaries.pictures FAQ.

There are freely distributable viewers for GL files, and they are usually
named GRASPRT?.EXE (replace the ? with a version digit or letter).  Most
GL files contain frames that are hardware-specific to particular modes
of the CGA, EGA, or VGA adapters on PCs.  I think that there are some
copies of GRASPRT available by anonymous ftp (I know that I got one there
a long time ago).

		Good Luck
		Jack

There are a number of Philosophical questions that I would like to ask:

1)  If we encounter a life form during our space exploration, how do we
determine if we should capture it, imprison it, and then discect it?

2)  If we encounter a civilization that is suffering economicly, will
we expend resources from earth to help them?

3)  With all of the deseases we currently have that are deadly and undetectable,
what will be done to ensure that more new deadly deseases aren't brought
back, or that our deseases don't destroy life elsewhere?

-- 
Have a day,

	Could you speak up? I can't hear you....

Ejon Matejevic who was a full professor at Clarkson University, last
I heard,  developed the process for sticking Teflon to metals.

I don't think it was a NASA project, cuz i heard he held the patent
on it, and had made quite a bundle off it.

Anyone from Clarkson know the Exact story.  I never wanted to ask
him myself.

Does anyone know of any c or c++ libraries for preparing
and displaying quickly pages of mixed text, mathematical equations,
and graphics (circles,ellipses,etc) on the vdu? The maths wouldnt
need to be up to TeX quality, but it would be useful to be scaleable.
The main thing would be to be able to generate the display quickly
from a minimum set of formatting code.
Thanks,
Ed Campbell

I would guess that it probably has something to do with the ease of which
ideas and thoughts are communicated on a college campus.  In the real world
(tm) it's easier for theists (well, people in general really) to lock
themselves into a little bubble where they only see and talk to those
people who are of the same opinion as they are.  In college you are
constantly surrounded by and have to interact with people who have
different ideas about life, the universe, and everything.  It is much much
harder to build a bubble around yourself to keep everyone else's ideas from
reaching you.

So, in a world where theists are forced to contend with and listen to
atheists and theists of other religions some are bound to have a change in
their beliefs over four years.  There is nowhere to run.... :-)

#|>
#|> #And in that area, what you care about is whether someone is sceptical,
#|> #critical and autonomous on the one hand, or gullible, excitable and
#|> #easily led on the other.
#|> 
#|> Indeed I may.  And one may be an atheist and also be gullible, excitable
#|> and easily led.
#|> 
#|> #I would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates
#|> #that a person is easily led.   Whether they have a worship or belief 
#|> #in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be
#|> #beside the point.
#|> 
#|> Sure.  But whether or not they are atheists is what we are discussing,
#|> not whether they are easily led.  
#
#Not if you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible, excitable
#and easily led from some concrete cause.   In that case we would also
#have to discuss if that concrete cause, rather than atheism, was the
#factor that caused their subsequent behaviour.

I'm not arguing that atheism causes such behaviour - merely that
it is not relevant to the definition of atheism, which is 'lack of belief in 
gods'.  

I can certainly see opposing the "Amen" -- but that doesn't require 
opposing a moment of silence.

Does anybody else besides me see a vicious circle here?  I guarantee
you the people who want school prayer aren't going to back off when
they can't even manage to get a quiet moment for their kids to pray
silently.

#Frank, unless you didn't realize it, you are just now involved
#in a debate where we have various opinions, and each entity
#has its own frame where the opinion is expressed. I think I 
#don't need to state the dreadful r-word.

So, it's _sometimes_ correct to say that morality is objective, or what?
After all, I could hardly be wrong, without dragging in the o-word.
For your part, when you say that relativism is true, that's just
your opinion.  Why do folk get so heated then, if a belief in relativism
is merely a matter of taste?  (to be fair, _you_ have been very calm,
I get the impression that's because you don't care about notions of
objectivity in any flavour.  Right?)

=Hmm.  The police strategy of bursting in with weapons drawn, clearly marked as
=officers and yelling "Police" repeatedly.  This is used every day to bust drug
=houses.  The idea is to awe the suspects into submission with surprise and
=display of firepowere in order to avoid a gun fight.  As for not knocking, it's
=a sad necessity in many cases since the suspects will attempt to escape or even
=fight.  Usually this strategy works; if it didn't, then it wouldn't be used so
=commonly, now would it?

How often is it used when the convoy carrying the brigade is visible for miles
before it reaches the place that's to be searched?

Introducing the Back to the Moon in Congress:
                          The Next Step
                          
        The next key hurdle for the Lunar Resources Data Purchase 
Act is introduction of the Act in Congress. At this point,  many
congresspersons have been approached about the bill. However,
for a successful effort to pass the bill, we need the best
possible congressperson to introduce the bill. Due to his
position as Chair of the House Committee on Space and Science,
Congressman George Brown is the logical choice. He has a long
record of support and interest in space development, and helped
pass the Launch Services Purchase Act and the Space Settlements
Act.                      
        There is a small group of activists in southern California 
who have assisted George Brown in his recent re-election campaigns.
We are mobilizing this group to have them tell Congressman Brown
about the Back to the Moon bill. We are also asking pro-space
constituents to let him know that they care about getting
America back to the Moon.
        Finally, there is a good chance that a nationwide alert 
for space activists to call or write George Brown to have him
introduce the Back to the Moon bill may be staged during late
spring, 1993.
        All this should produce a positive reaction from Brown's
office. As more is known, it will be passed on.
        However, even if we are successful in getting him to support
the bill,  this alone will not ensure passage of the bill. For
any bill to become law, one of three conditions must exist:
either the bill must reflect widespread national support for an
issue (such as extension of unemployment insurance benefits); be
propelled by high-priced lobbyists (we're out of luck there); or
have widespread support within Congress, due to small, but
widespread, constituent support. The latter is the path that we,
by necessity, must choose.                    
        This means that the introduction of the Lunar Resources 
Data Purchase Act must be immediately accompanied by a large number
of congresspersons' sponsorship of the bill.  To accomplish
this, we need activists to ask their congressperson to support
the Lunar Resources Data Purchase Act - now. To wait until the
bill is introduced is simply too late - it takes time to have a
congressperson's staff review a bill.
        If your congressperson mentions that the bill is not yet
introduced, please elicit their opinion of the bill as currently
written. We appreciate all comments on the bill from activists
and politicians.
        If you have yet to see the Back to the Moon bill, please
request a copy by Email (please include your U.S. postal service
address), or contact your local chapter of the National Space
Society).

I know that "must" is a verb in some languages.   I'm complaining
about the assertion containing the word must.

Anyone who thinks that TIFF is too complex hasn't dealt with
	CGM, ASN.1, CDA, DCA, SGML, or any one of a number of other
	very successful file format.  People seem perfectly capable
	dealing with these others.  Dealing with the format of TIFF
	is frankly less difficult than dealing with the DCT, LZW, and
	FAX encoding of the image data.  The majority of the libraries
	which deal with TIFF are dedicated to these other issues rather
	than with simply decoding the tags and parameters.

	Perhaps people are overwhelmed in comparison with some rather
	simpleminded formats such as GIF, PCX, and BMP, but to suggest
	that TIFF is so complex as to be doomed to failure is ludicrous.

	That doesn't mean that GIF isn't fine, but don't even thing about
	using it in many instances.  GIF is very nice for use in low-end
	photos applications and for screen grabs and such, but it would
	never do for high-volume or high-resolution systems.  FAX is nice,
	but it doesn't do color (and GIF doesn't do B&W all that well).
	JPEG is nice for high-resolution color, but is slow for low-end.

	The advantage TIFF brings to the table is its ability to handle
	all these situations (and then some).  Naturally it's more complex.
	But I'ld rather propose TIFF imaging solutions over imaging
	systems based on having to deal with 3-4 file formats anyday.

	You may find that TIFF is too complicated for your personal tastes
	but please don't wrail against it's complexity.  The complexity
	it contains is required to provide the functionality it does and
	doesn't come close to the complexity found in most commercially
	viable file formats.

Get the generic version (for Unix and VMS) and build it. IMHO a
VMS .com file to build it is supplied.
As the distribution comes as .tar.Z you should either have uncompress
and tar on VMS or a UNIX flavoured machine handy.
Usually you won't find this on IBM-PC specific archives, but on the better
ones :)

I reiterate that I would agree with you that there is little
justification for the punishment of apostasy in the Qur'an.
In Islamic history, as well, apostasy has rarely been punished. 
Belief is considered a matter of conscience and since there
is to be no compulsion in the matter of belief, apostates have
been generally left to believe or not believe as they will.

However, when an apostate makes attacks upon "God and
His Messenger" the situation changes. Now the charge of
apostasy may be complicated with other charges - perhaps 
charges of sedition, treason, spying, etc. If the person 
makes a public issue of their apostasy or mounts public
attacks (as opposed to arguement) against Islam, the
situation is likewise complicated. If the person spreads
slander or broadcasts falsehoods, again the situation
changes. The punishments vary according to the situation
the apostate is in. Anyhow, the charge of aggravated
apostasy would only be a subsidiary charge in Rushdie's case.

There is a distinction in the Qur'an between a formal war situation
and being in the situation where someone unilaterally
wages war (by their actions), creates disorder, makes mischief,etc. 
against the Muslims and creates a situation that results in harm 
to Muslims. Here, a small group or even a single individual could
be said to be engaged in such a practise. In other words, there is
a clear difference between a formal war situation (where two
clearly defined parties wage war, conclude treaties, exchange
prisoners, etc.), and dealing with attacks that come from isolated
individuals or groups against Islam. It is the second situation, 
the unilateral attack and the spreading of "fasad" that 
would apply in the case of Rushdie.

The matter of Rushdie is not a simple matter of banning an 
offensive book (banning the book is secondary) -
a full set of circumstances following the publication of
the book come into play as well, including the deaths of many
Muslims, and Rushdie's (and his publishers) Media games.

I am not sure which hadith you are referring to above. I believe
that one of the Qur'anic verses on which the fatwa is based is 5:33.
Every verse in the Qur'an has a corresponding "circumstance of
revelation" but in no way is the understanding (the tafsir) of the
verse restricted solely to the particular historical circumstance
in which it was revealed. If this was the case then we could say
that all the laws and regulations that were revealed when the
Muslims were NOT involved in conflict, should be suspended when
they were at war. The logic does not follow. In complex, real-life
situations, there may be many verses and many hadiths which can
all be related to a single, complicated situation. The internal
relationships between these verses may be quite complex, such that
arriving at an understanding of how the verses interlock and how
each applies to the particular situation can be quite a demanding task.
It is not necessarily a simple "this or that" process. There may
be many parameters involved, there may be a larger context in
which a particular situation should be viewed. All these matters
impinge on the situation.

In other words there is a great deal involved in deciphering the Qur'an.
The Qur'an asks us to reflect on its verses, but this reflection must
entail more than simply reading a verse and its corresponding hadith.
If the reflection is for the sake of increasing personal piety, then each
person has his own level of understanding and there is no harm in that.
However, if the reflection is in order to decide matters that pertain to
the
State, to the gestation of laws and rulings, to the gestation of society,
the dispensing of justice, the guidance of the community, then there 
are certain minimum requirements of understanding that one 
should achieve. Jaffar Ibn Muhammad as-Sadiq(a.s.) relates some of 
these requirements, as taught by the Prophet(S.A.), in a hadith:

"...he who does not distinguish in the Book of Allah the abrogating
verse from the abrogated one, and a specific one from a general one,
and a decisive from an ambiguous; and does not differentiate between
a permission and an obligation, and does not recognize a verse of
Meccan period from a Medinite one, and does not know the circumstances 
of revelation, and does not understand the technical words of
the Qur'an (whether simple or compound); and does not comprehend the
knowledge of decree and measure, and is ignorant of advancing and
delaying (in its verses); and does not distinguish the clear from
the deep, nor the manifest from the esoteric, nor the beginning
from the termination; and is unaware of the question and the answer,
the disjoining and the joining, and the exceptions and the all-inclusive,
and is ignorant of an adjective of a preceding noun that explains the
subsequent one; and is unaware of the emphasized subject and the
detailed one, the obligatory laws and the permissions, the places of the
duties and rules, and the meaning of the lawful and the unlawful; and
does not know the joined words, and the words that are related to those
coming before them, or after them - then such a man does not know
the Qur'an; nor is he among the people of the Qur'an....".

Based on these and other hadiths, and in accordance with many Qur'anic
verses ("Why should not a company from every group remain behind 
to gain profound understanding (tafaqquh) in religion and to warn 
people when they return to them, so that they may beware." (9:122)),
a science of jurisprudence arose. The requirements
for a person to be considered a mujtahid (one who can pronounce on
matters of law and religion) are many. I've listed a few major 
divisions below - there are, of course, many subdivisions within these
headings.

- Knowledge of Arabic (syntax, conjugation, roots, semantics, oratory).
- Knowledge of tafsir and principles of tafsir.
- Logic (mantiq)
- A knowledge of Hadiths
- A knowledge of transmitters (rijal)
- Knowledge of the principles of juriprudence (Qur'an, Sunnah, Consensus,
Reasoning)

The study of Qur'an and sunnah for purposes of law involves:
- discussion of imperatives (awamir)
- discussion of negative imperatives (nawahi)
- discussion of generalities and particularities (aam wa khas)
- discussion of unconditional and conditional
- discussion of tacit meanings
- discussion of the abstract and the clear
- discussion of the abrogator and the abrogated

The principles of Application of the law involves:
- principles of exemption
- principles of precaution
- principles of option
- principles of mastery

The jurisprudent is bound to go through a very rigorous process
in pronouncing judgement on a given situation. It is not a matter
of looking at one verse and one hadith. 

Now no one should blindly follow anyone, but there is a difference
between blind following and acceding to the opinion of someone who is
clearly more knowledgeable and more qualified than oneself. There is the
"The fuqaha (religious scholars) are the trustees of the Prophet, as 
long as they do not concern themselves with the illicit desires, pleasures,
and wealth of this world." The Prophet (S.A.) was asked: "O Messenger
of God! How may we know if they so concern themselves?" He (S.A.) replied:
"By seeing whether they follow the ruling power. If they do that, fear for
your religion and shun them." I do not yet know enough about the Imams
of the four Sunni madhabs to comment on how this hadith applies
to them or to the contemporary scholars who base themselves upon them.

The Prophet also refered to the fuqaha as "The fortress of Islam". My only
point is to make it clear that arriving at a legal judgement calls into
play a certain amount of expertise - the specifics of this expertise is 
delineated in the Qur'an and hadith. Those who acquire this expertise
are praised in both the Qur'an and hadith - those who without the requisite
knowledge pronounce on matters that affect society, state, and religion 
are cautioned.

The only reason I said anything at all about the Rushdie affair in this
group, is because the whole basis for the discussion of the fatwa (that is,
apostasy), was wrong. When one discusses something they should at least
base their discussion on fact. Secondly, Khomeini was condemned as a
heretic
because he supposedly claimed to be infallible - another instance of
creating a straw man and then beating him.

I agree that we should move the discussion to another newsgroup.
Unfortunately,
I do not have any access to email, so private discussion or a moderated
group
is out of the question (I cannot post to a moderated group like
soc.religion.islam. How about soc.culture.arabic or talk.religion.misc?

Not very -- you just type "xloadimage" or "getx11" instead of "xv".
-- 

STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP! This argument is getting silly! XV-3.00 now handles
24-bit images without quantizing them. All these arguments are moot, null, 
and void. Please stop quibbling about a now obsolete version of the program.

Besides, you can now generate tons of verbiage about the new shareware
licensing it uses instead ...

Mike

  Thanks for the etymology lesson, but I actually know what "orthodox" means.
You're avoiding my question, however, which was: From what body of theology
does your version of orthodoxy come?  You seem to simply be saying that
whatever *you* understand the Bible to say is "orthodox."

  You are obviously mistaken, since many, many people have read the Bible and
many do not agree with you on this point.  Once again, Robert, is your
interpretation the only "correct" or "orthodox" one?

   This whole string began as a response to your attacks on Mormonism; no one
is attacking your personal beliefs, only your tendency to present them as
"orthodoxy."  I don't much care *what* you believe about the Bible; just don't
present you personal understanding as the only "orthodox" one.

   I have never attacked your specific beliefs -- that's *your* approach,
remember?
    Stating that other people who depend solely on the Bible have other views
is indeed proof that the Bible can be interpreted many ways, which has been
my whole point all along.  The specifics of your belief are your business;
just don't pretend that they are anything more than your personal
intepretation, and be careful about crying "heresy" based on your private
belief system.

How does the 16 bit color of HDTV work ? It can not be 5 bit Red Green and
Blue like on the Macintosh. This gives only 64 gray levels.

Apple also has developed a point-point network that is around 200MB (not
sure if it is bits or bytes) per sec.

I am looking for a means to add FLI and FLC animation creation
to a Windows application.  I was hoping for something along the lines
of AAWIN or AAPLAY by Autodesk but for the creation of these delta 
compressed animations.  I have FLILIB but this seems to be coded for 
the Large memory model of DOS with Turbo C. Ideally I would
like a DLL or Medium model object library, but would settle
for anything, really.  I've seen other Windows apps with
FLI/FLC creation, did they hack the FLILIB code into submission?

Any pointers would be appreciated, please send mail directly
to me and I will summarize the results if there is interest.

	This will not, of course, deter the several die-hard Koreshies on
this net, who will probably claim that the Tarrant County medical examiner
(Dr. Peerwani) was coerced by the FBI into faking this evidence.  Either that,
or they'll claim the FBI shot them.
	The rest of us might contemplate the difficulty of determining the
cause of death from a corpse that has been reduced to a Krispy Kritter.

!: Concerning the proposed newsgroup split, I personally am not in favor of
!: doing this.  I learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading
!: this group, from code to hardware to algorithms.  I just think making 5
!: different groups out of this is a wate, and will only result in a few posts
!: a week per group.  I kind of like the convenience of having one big forum
!: for discussing all aspects of graphics.  Anyone else feel this way?
!: Just curious.
!
!Yes. I also like knowing where to go to ask a question without getting
!hell for putting it in the wrong newsgroup.

I am also against splitting the group. The traffic will decrease
on any given subject but the required net bandwidth will INCREASE
because of multiply cross-postings.

I just went through this with another group I continuously read.
It is now almost at the point where it is no longer worth reading.

Strongly suggest NOT doing this.

If some kind person has access to a mathematical package such as Mathematica,
Maple,... I would like to ask you for the solution to the following problem.
I sometimes have algebra problems like this where I would like a simplified
symbolic solution. Is there a FTP-able package out there that can handle such
beasts?

    I would like to solve the following ray - Bezier patch intersection
    for the scalar constant t in:

        P                    + t * V                =  Q(u,w)
         (origin point in 3D)       (dir vector 3D)

    in terms of only:
       
          P            V            P                     and various scalars
           (origin) ,   (dir 3D) ,   (i,j) 0 <= i,j <= 3

    where:

                            T
    Q(u,w) = [U] [N] [B] [M]  [W]

               n  n-1  n-2   n-3
      [U] = [ u  u    u     u ....     u  1 ]      ( 0.0 <= u <= 1.0 )
               3  2
          = [ u  u  u 1 ]    ( in my particular case )

               n  n-1  n-2   n-3             T
      [W] = [ w  w    w     w ....     w  1 ]      ( 0.0 <= w <= 1.0 )

               3  2      T
          = [ w  w  w 1 ]    ( in my particular case )

                   T
      [ N ] = [ M ]   =  | -1  3 -3  1 |     ( for my particular case )
                         |  3 -6  3  0 |
                         | -3  3  0  0 |
                         |  1  0  0  0 |

      [ B ] =  | P       P       P       P      | (control points in 3D space)
               |  (0,0)   (0,1)   (0,2)   (0,3) |
               |                                |
               | P       P       P       P      |
               |  (1,0)   (1,1)   (1,2)   (1,3) |
               |                                |
               | P       P       P       P      |
               |  (2,0)   (2,1)   (2,2)   (2,3) |
               |                                |
               | P       P       P       P      |
               |  (3,0)   (3,1)   (3,2)   (3,3) |

                                        Thanx,

#In article <1r0sn0$3r@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>
# 
#>|>#>#Theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes. Irrational
#>|>#>#belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism.
# 
#(deletion)
# 
#>|Theism is correlated with fanaticism. I have neither said that all fanatism
#>|is caused by theism nor that all theism leads to fanatism. The point is,
#>|theism increases the chance of becoming a fanatic. One could of course
#>|argue that would be fanatics tend towards theism (for example), but I just
#>|have to loook at the times in history when theism was the dominant ideology
#>|to invalidate that conclusion that that is the basic mechanism behind it.
#>
#>IMO, the influence of Stalin, or for that matter, Ayn Rand, invalidates your
#>assumption that theism is the factor to be considered.
# 
#Bogus. I just said that theism is not the only factor for fanatism.
#The point is that theism is *a* factor.

That's your claim; now back it up.  I consider your argument as useful
as the following:  Belief is strongly correlated with fanaticism.  Therefore
belief is *a* factor in fanaticism.  True, and utterly useless.  (Note, this
is *any* belief, not belief in Gods)

#>Gullibility,
#>blind obedience to authority, lack of scepticism, and so on, are all more
#>reliable indicators.  And the really dangerous people - the sources of
#>fanaticism - are often none of these things.  They are cynical manipulators
#>of the gullible, who know precisely what they are doing.
# 
#That's a claim you have to support. Please note that especially in the
#field of theism, the leaders believe what they say.

If you believe that, you're incredibly naive.

#>Now, *some*
#>brands of theism, and more precisely *some* theists, do tend to fanaticism,
#>I grant you.  To tar all theists with this brush is bigotry, not a reasoned
#>argument - and it reads to me like a warm-up for censorship and restriction
#>of religious freedom.  Ever read Animal Farm?
#>
#That's a straw man. And as usually in discussions with you one has to
#repeat it: Read what I have written above: not every theism leads to
#fanatism, and not all fanatism is caused by theism. The point is,
#there is a correlation, and it comes from innate features of theism.

No, some of it comes from features which *some* theism has in common
with *some* fanaticism.    Your last statement simply isn't implied by
what you say before, because you're trying to sneak in "innate features
of [all] theism".  The word you're groping for is "some".

#Gullibility, by the way, is one of them.

No shit, Sherlock.  So why not talk about gullibility instead of theism,
since it seems a whole lot more relevant to the case you have, as opposed
to the case you are trying to make?

#And to say that I am going to forbid religion is another of your straw
#men. Interesting that you have nothing better to offer.

I said it reads like a warm up to that.  That's because it's an irrational
and bogus tirade, and has no other use than creating a nice Them/Us 
split in the minds of excitable people such as are to be found on either
side of church walls.

#>|>(2)  Define "irrational belief".  e.g., is it rational to believe that
#>|>     reason is always useful?
#>|>
#>|
#>|Irrational belief is belief that is not based upon reason. The latter has
#>|been discussed for a long time with Charley Wingate. One point is that
#>|the beliefs violate reason often, and another that a process that does
#>|not lend itself to rational analysis does not contain reliable information.
#>
#>Well, there is a glaring paradox here:  an argument that reason is useful
#>based on reason would be circular, and argument not based on reason would
#>be irrational.  Which is it?
#>
#That's bogus. Self reference is not circular. And since the evaluation of
#usefulness is possible within rational systems, it is allowed.

O.K., it's oval.  It's still begging the question, however.  And though
that certainly is allowed, it's not rational.  And you claiming to be
rational and all.

At the risk of repeating myself, and hearing "we had that before" [we
didn't hear a _refutation_ before, so we're back.   Deal with it] :
you can't use reason to demonstrate that reason is useful.  Someone
who thinks reason is crap won't buy it, you see.

#Your argument is as silly as proving mathematical statements needs mathematics
#and mathematics are therfore circular.

Anybody else think Godel was silly?

#>The first part of the second statement contains no information, because
#>you don't say what "the beliefs" are.  If "the beliefs" are strong theism
#>and/or strong atheism, then your statement is not in general true.  The
#>second part of your sentence is patently false - counterexample: an
#>axiomatic datum does not lend itself to rational analysis, but is
#>assumed to contain reliable information regardless of what process is
#>used to obtain it.
#>
# 
#I've been speaking of religious systems with contradictory definitions
#of god here.
# 
#An axiomatic datum lends itself to rational analysis, what you say here
#is a an often refuted fallacy. Have a look at the discussion of the
#axiom of choice. And further, one can evaluate axioms in larger systems
#out of which they are usually derived. "I exist" is derived, if you want
#it that way.
#
#Further, one can test the consistency and so on of a set of axioms.
# 
#what is it you are trying to say?

That at some point, people always wind up saying "this datum is reliable" 
for no particular reason at all.  Example: "I am not dreaming".

#>|Compared the evidence theists have for their claims to the strength of
#>|their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational.
#>
#>I can't agree with this until you are specific - *which* theism?  To
#>say that all theism is necessarily antirational requires a proof which
#>I suspect you do not have.
#>
# 
#Using the traditonal definition of gods. Personal, supernatural entities
#with objective effects on this world. Usually connected to morals and/or
#the way the world works.

IMO, any belief about such gods is necessarily irrational.  That does
not mean that people who hold them are in principle opposed to the exercise of
intelligence.  Some atheists are also scientists, for example.

#>|The affinity to fanatism is easily seen. It has to be true because I believe
#>|it is nothing more than a work hypothesis. However, the beliefs say they are
#>|more than a work hypothesis.
#>
#>I don't understand this.  Can you formalise your argument?
# 
#Person A believes system B becuase it sounds so nice. That does not make
#B true, it is at best a work hypothesis. However, the content of B is that
#it is true AND that it is more than a work hypothesis. Testing or evaluating
#evidence for or against it  therefore dismissed because B (already believed)
#says it is wronG/ a waste  of time/ not possible. Depending on the further
#contents of B Amalekites/Idolaters/Protestants are to be killed, this can
#have interesting effects.

Peculiar definition of interesting, but sure.  Now show that a belief
in gods entails the further contents of which you speak.   Why aren't my 
catholic neighbours out killing the protestants, for example?   Maybe they 
don't believe in it.  Maybe it's the conjunction of "B asserts B" and
"jail/kill dissenters" that is important, and the belief in gods is
entirely irrelevant.  It certainly seems so to me, but then I have no
axe to grind here. 

Hi,

I just sent a mail to Turgut Kalfaoglu (sp?), the maintainer of the list,
and asked him what's going on. If the list is (for whatever reason) really
dead, we might have to put up a list ourselves. But for now, I want to wait
for his answer.

Frank

Often Shuttle lifts satellites with upper stages. Yet we still consider it
payload. Ten Saturn flights over about 4 years delivered to LEO roughly the
same as 50 shuttle flights over 10 years.

They where pretty much the same in terms of cost/pound. A resurected
Saturn would cost only $2,000 per pound (if development costs are ignored)
which is five times cheaper than Shuttle.

    Allen

There are some tricks to installing ATM to windows... install them first
to dos, then run the ATM control panel to get them into windows.

The best reason for ATM is that Adobe IS the standard.  Truetype is a
failed MS venture to undercut Adobe when Adobe was being nasty about
keeping their formats proprietary.  Just about any service bureau or print
shop will smirk and send you on your way if you bring a TrueType document
to them for high resolution printing or ripping.

Although there are lots of pretty TT fonts floating around, they are really
for dot matrix or your own lazer printer.
However, you can convert your TT fonts with Fontmonger or some similar program
to ATM fonts for high end stuff.

If you are using dot matrix for all your printing, you may have wasted
your money!

"The Forever War", one of my favorite SciFi books, had a passage devoted to 
breathing fluids. The idea was to protect people from the high accelerations 
required for interstellar travel by emersing the passengers in dry-cleaning 
fluid saturated with oxygen. Plenty of very imaginative ideas is this book.
I would certainly recommend it (won the Hugo and the Nebula awards).

We can only say that they are beyond about 25 AU, due to the low
accuracy of position determination by single detectors.

It may be a NEW Physics problem (i.e. a problem involving new
physics).  However, the data is not good enough to rule out the >100
models which use old physics.  New physics is a big step, and is only
tolerated when there is no alternative.  For example , the Dark Matter
Problem (there's more to the universe than meets the eye) is a question
of comparable mystery to GRBs, but we have much better data regarding
it.  Theoreticians postulate new particles all the time to explain it,
but no one will actually believe that these particles are real until an
experimentalist (or several) detects them in the lab.

This is an invitation to send articles to the Informatica magazine.
The first fully international issue has been published and echoes 
are quite favourable. For any information, contact (matjaz.gams@ijs.si). 

Dear Colleague,                                        April 25, 1993

Number 1 of volume 17 of Informatica is now out of print and some of you 
will receive it in a week or so. As you will see, the journal is structured
in the following way: the editorial (first page); profiles (second page
-- biography of an editor, in this issue, Terry Winograd); the edited
part of papers (pp. 3-80); mission and research reports (A plan for
knowledge archives project in Japan and CSLI in Stanford, pp. 81-100);
and news and announcements (pp. 101-108). This structure is mentioned to
give you a suggestion how could you help to make the contents of the
journal significant, diverse, and interesting, bringing your own views
into the discourse.
   A great emphasis is given to the so-called editorial page. This page
expresses an opinion (belief) of the writing editor to some problems
within the scope of computing and informatics, extending into other
concerning disciplines, e.g. cybernetics, advanced AI, cognitive sciences,
mind, informationally concerned neural sciences, advanced technology 
(e.g. photonics), etc. I asked professor Terry Winograd to write this
page for Number 2. I certainly would appreciate very much to get
suggestions or possible offers from other editors, who like to express
their strong (directed) beliefs concerning a future development of the
area in question.
   On the second page of each Number an editor's profile is published.
The aim of the profile is twofold: to show his/her professional 
achievements, interests, scientific, and philosophical orientation on
one side; to narrate his/her life story in the environments in which
editors has lived and live on the other side. This kind of story should
be instructive, adequately factically faced, contributing to the 
understanding of circumstances in which editors have to act and live.
   The edited part (edited papers) is still critical. I would like to have
a stock of accepted papers in advance, so the issuing dates of a particular
number can be fixed (e.g. January, April, July, and October). In situation
right now, I ask you to help me with contributions of yours or your
colleagues, collaborators, students, etc. Some critical views to the
contemporary development of computing and informatics are appreciated.
A special emphasis should be given also to originality by which fresh
ideas are coming into the circulation of different professional communities.
   Reports of different occasions (symposia, conferences, meetings, etc.)
and particularly on new books, papers, and interesting events are welcome.
You can send these news immediately (also by your secretary) by e-mail.
On the other hand, you can send books and other publications (annual
reports, journals, calls for papers, etc.) for reviewing and publishing
in Informatica. We in the editorial staff will manage the rest.
   E-mail is functioning satisfactorily, so please use it in every respect.
You can submit editorial notes, profiles, reports, news and even complete
papers written in standard LaTex format (especially formulas). We received
several final (corrected) texts in Number 1 from different sites (US,
Russia, etc.). In this way, you can compose reports from already typed
texts, using your own choice and editing, and submit them to the contact
person (matjaz.gams@ijs.si), who is always being on your disposal. So,
you will receive a prompt confirmation and any information concerning
our common interest and job.

At the end, please do not forget: we need your cooperation and help in
every mentioned respect. The aim of Informatica is to open various
possibilities of communication concerning strong scientific and 
philosophical orientations as well as those coming up, still unrevealed,
and on the way to become significant. Please, do not apprehend to give
proposals, suggestions, and, certainly, contributions via the e-mail
and by other means.

Sincerely yours,

I wouldn't punish him with eternal torture if he didn't love me. But then
I;m a decent chap. It seems your god isn't.

I've looked, and he wasn't. Another promise broken.

Lying bastard! How  do you know what effort I have and have not given? 

Can anyone eaplain what he's just said here?

Peter

How can I find these files and graphics that people
are downloading from their Unix systems? Then, how
do I download them? I am a complete beginner in
this (obviously), so please baby-step me through
the process. First of all, I don't see amongst
these newsgroups where there is anything remotely
like a GIF, TIF, or compiled shareware program?

Thanks in advance for any information you can
give me. (I know there is a Unix command, "ftp,"
that will allow me to do this, but first I
need to know where to go to find the file
I want download via ftp, etc.

Thomas Helke
egret@wet.UUCP 

There are people who have adapted to high altitudes in the Andes and in
Tibet. I suspect that it took them several generations to make the
adaptation because Europeans had difficulty making the adaptation. They
had to send the women to a lower altitude when they were pregnant in order
to insure sucessful childbirth.

Another factor you should consider is the X-ray opacity of the atmosphere 
in case of stellar flares, the uv opacity is also important because uv 
radiation can kill or damage microbes, plants, and animals. 

If you check the news today, (AP) the "authorities also found a state-of-the-art
automatic machine gun that investigators did not know was in the cult's arsenal."
[Carl Stern, Justice Department]

I imagine the authorities know the difference between semi and fully automatic
and probably knew weather the guns were legal as they have access to any relative
documentation (i.e. permits).  In addition the .50 caliber guns (plural) were
semi-automatic rifles.

Technion - Israel Institute of Technology
         Department of Computer Science

       GRADUATE STUDIES IN COMPUTER GRAPHICS

Applications are invited for graduate students wishing
to specialize in computer graphics and related fields.
Active research is being conducted in the fields of
image rendering, geometric modelling and computer animation.
State of the art graphics workstations (Sun, Silicon Graphics)
and video equipment are available.
The Technion offers full scholarship support (tuition and 
assistantships) for suitable candidates.

For more information contact

Hi -- sorry if this is a FAQ, but are there any conversion utilities
available for Autodesk *.DXF to Amiga *.IFF format?  I
checked the comp.graphics FAQ and a number of sites, but so far
no banana.  Please e-mail.

Thanks.